The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL final four: lessons learned with Terez Paylor, and an Atlanta Falcons Team Visit with Tori McElhaney

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

Robert is joined by Yahoo Sports’ Terez Paylor to review lessons learned from the NFL’s four conference championship teams, and discuss the murky Jared Goff situation in LA, ideal Matthew Stafford destinations, possible Dwayne Haskins landing spots, and much more.Plus, The Athletic’s Tori McElhaney stops by for an Atlanta Falcons Team Visit to discuss Arthur Smith as the team’s new head coach and Terry Fontenot as the team’s new GM, Matt Ryan’s potential comfort level within Smith’s system, the option to draft their next QB with the fourth overall pick, problems on the defensive side of the ball, and how Dean Pees could change that next season, and more.You can get an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Tori McElagney, our Falcons writer, is going to be joining us a little bit later in the show to chat about the direction of the Atlanta Falcons. I think they've had a fascinating offseason. They're continuing to add to their coaching staff.

We're going to get into all of that. Before we do that, though, I'm very excited to welcome my buddy, Teres Paler from Yahoo Sports and the host, co-host of the Yahoo Sports NFL podcast to the show. How you doing, man? Robert, my man, what's going on? Not too much. It's been too long. I wanted to get you on earlier than this, and I don't know how it didn't happen, but

it's the week for the Super Bowl. You know the Chiefs extremely well, and I wanted to have you on to talk about a bunch of stuff. I'm very glad we can make this happen. Yeah, man, I've always enjoyed doing podcasts with you, man. So, you know, look, it's been a crazy year for everybody. Okay, so no hard feelings here, but, look, I know you love football as much as I do. Exactly. It just like it just kind of pours out of you like me.

So, you know, I mean, you already know I'm really excited as someone who loves the game about this Super Bowl. And, you know, just to be on the pod with you, somebody who shares that enthusiasm. I'm excited. So let's do this thing, man. So we're going to get into some of the team building lessons from the final four. I think it's worth still looking back now. We get a long ways until the game. And this is always a useful exercise to me.

I've written about it in the past. I think doing it in the podcast won't be great. Before we do that, though, I wanted to talk. I wanted to talk about some of the quarterback carousel stuff because it's been in the news and we haven't really discussed it on this show yet. And let's start with Jared Gough. We're about, I don't know, 90 minutes removed from Lesneed having a press conference and saying that Jared Gough is the quarterback right now, which is yet another instance, probably the fourth or fifth in the last couple weeks here, where the decision makers for the Rams have had the chance to commit to their very expensive quarterback after this season and have elected not to do that.

I mean, what is your read on this situation? I mean, I think if you had asked me six weeks ago, what percentage chance there is that Jared Gough is on the Rams next season, I would have said 95. Now, I think very differently about it, and I'm not sure exactly where I come down. So what is your just initial read on this overall kind of Rams' Jared Gough juggling act that we're seeing right now?

Man, I'm right there with you. I actually wrote in early December. I was a little concerned about golf. I do this weekly web series for Yahoo Sports called Check the Tape, which is amazing. Thank you. By the way, you guys definitely check it out. He had Brian Table on last week.

It was great. And you will learn a lot. And I strongly suggest you guys watch it if you have it. Thanks, man. That's what I'm trying to do. Like, I love the game. I'm trying to help people learn it better because I'm always trying to learn. When you had these people on, you learn things, right?

So, you know, what I thought was really interesting was I did one on Derek Gough and how, like, I started noticing, you know, if you drop linemen, like, he'd been throwing interceptions to those guys, you know, and it just feels like in a lot of ways he was kind of making mistakes. He expected him to be a little over by now, right? And I get why McVeigh, yeah, I get why McVeigh is a little frustrated with it, because he's actually really, really media savvy. And with some of the things he said during the course of the year, like, you kind of know, like, oh, that feels like an intentional saying that the quarterback needs to be a little bit better. And less need, even today, what he says makes you feel like there's an understanding

the quarterback needs to be better. And I'm not saying Jared Gough stinks. I think he's fine. But the problem is in today's NFL, like having a fine quarterback, like, kind of isn't enough. that your quarterback's got to be, unless he's just unbelievable in the pocket, like Tom Brady. He knows everything before it's coming, and he's a master pocket manipulator. You know, it's a lot easier to play quarterback in the NFL now more than ever, Robert. And I feel like because of that, you kind of need your got to be an off-scheduled guy. Like, he's got to be able to create sometimes when things break down. And even players who are great in the pocket, like Aaron Rogers.

Like he can still do it, though. still do the off-schedule stuff. And in a lot of ways, he was like pre-ma Holmes, man. So, like, I get it because that team had a great defense. And they also had the number one, like number fourth ranked, number four ranked offense in terms of DVOA in terms of rushing. And if that's the case, their offensive passing DVOA can't be 20. I'm putting a blame for that on the quarterback because it's not McVeigh's fault.

He's one of the five or six best game schemers in football. So I get it. And it's hard not to think about it. And actually ended up writing it. It's hard enough to think about what the Rams could look like with a slightly more dynamic quarterback. All of that stuff, I think, needs to be taken into account. It's kind of fun to watch. Not fun.

Certainly not for them. But it's been illuminating to watch the process that this has gone through, right? No. I remember when they signed him to that deal and talking to somebody there, and McVeigh signed off on that. That is something that he had to rubber stamp for that to happen. And when he got there, I think there was probably some considerations of what the quarterback position would look like because he didn't pick off. That's an arranged marriage. And you had guys like Kirk cousins that may be hitting the open market soon after McVeigh had gotten there.

And does he want to get a guy like Kirk back in there that he knows and can work with? And he kind of came away from his initial impressions of golf and said, you know, this guy's better than the status quo quarterback. I can work with this. And it's been interesting to watch that kind of deteriorate over. time and kind of the light bulb go off in his head. I'll give all the credit in the world to Barnwell because he was on this when they signed that deal. He said, this is the perfect team to throw the quarterback back to go get somebody else from

the pool and not pay that big contract. And now they're paying for it. So now you're in this moment where I think you're exactly right and dynamic is a great way to frame it. I think McVeigh has understood that he has a quarterback that he has to make right, not a quarterback that makes him right. And that's the biggest. distinction. And we said this recently on the show. We're talking about Rivers and how a quarterback

like that will never be drafted high again. That guy who's a statue that can't do anything with his legs that doesn't have answers. And I think the Rams have found themselves in this position where they have a quarterback that they have to provide answers to instead of having a quarterback that provides answers to them. And you can't pay that sort of quarterback $35 million. It's just not a good allocation of your resources. And now they're stuff. They're stuck. And the question is, Is somebody willing to give up a draft pick for that type of quarterback? And I don't yet know the answer to that question. A desperate team is always looking for a quarterback, but I think you would agree.

There's more quarterbacks I can take snaps for you than ever before. And again, it's never been easier to play the position. Like, they've really adjusted offensive schemes in this league to more the college style. It's more open. Lord knows the rules have been tilted significantly in the offense's favor. Like, you got to be able to create. Because at the end of the day, man, like, honestly, look at the four quarterbacks in the championship games. You got to go head to head against one of those guys, whether it's Mahomes or Patrick or Josh Allen or Tom Brady or Aaron Rogers.

And to win in the division around, you kind of need an alpha dog quarterback that can create, too. You need it. And that's just where we're at in the game right now. And I'm not surprised that McVeigh has gotten there, but it was shocking. to see, hey, John Woffer's starting this game in the playoffs. And listen, if Jared Gough was able to play in that game, which he did and finish when Walfour got hurt, that's not a good look for him. You know, that wasn't a good look for him to not start that game if he's able to play.

And I'm not saying it was his fault. I'm saying it felt like they wanted to see what the more creative quarterback can do and thought that gave him the better chance to win, which says a lot, quite frankly. It says a lot. And that's why there's such an interesting test case when it comes to this kind of because there are more quarterbacks that can do what Jared Goff can do than ever before. So when they signed that deal, I think it was a lot of old school thinking in that we have a guy we know works. You have to think back about what they were in 2017, 2018 when they gave golf this contract.

They were a top three offense. They were this team that I'm sure they're thinking was, look at what we are with Jared Goff. This is what we need to be, not what could we do with someone else. And I think that line of thinking is going to be more and more prevalent as teams realize that more of these guys can play the position at a relatively high level. So now the question becomes, what do you do? They can't cut him because that's just not realistic with the finances of it all. They can trade him, though, and they can get out from under that deal if someone is willing to take it.

His base salary next season is $25 million. It's the highest base salary in the NFL, which the reason he doesn't have the highest cap is because of bonuses and all this other stuff. So a team that traded for him would have a $25 million based salary this year and essentially $25 million allocated in 2020 because he has a $15 million roster bonus on top of a $10 million based salary. So he would go from having a top five cap hit in 2021 for the Rams to the 17th or excuse me, 15th highest cap hit in the league if he were traded to another team. If you're a quarterback desperate and there's no more guaranteed money left on his deal essentially

after 2021, I would be willing to trade. a mid-round pick for Jared Goff to survive 2021 and possibly 22 if I didn't have an option. That's where I would land on this. I don't know how you feel about it. I like that. I like that. And I like the fact that you put it at like a mid-round pick because that's about what I'd be wanting to give up to.

Because they have no leverage. They need to get out from under it. They're operating from a position of weakness here. And if you're one of these other teams, though, you're also looking for the dynamic guy too. And like, yeah, sometimes you're trying to just get through the year or something. So, you know, a mid-round pick is right about the right range and do that. But I also think at the end of the day, even if you traded for Jared Gough,

you'd be doing that knowing that you're taking a young quarterback this year or next year or two. He's going to be your bridge to that young guy. Yep. But that $25 million is a bridge contract. That's the Teddy Bridgewater deal essentially, which you can live with that. Exactly. So that's coming with knowing that probably sooner rather than later, you're looking for the innovative, creative quarterback to pair with him.

And consequently, I think if you're the Rams, if you have to hold on the golf for another year, it's not a lost cause in the sense that I like the way he did respond in the Seahawks game after Woffer got hurt. Like he played like he was upset and embarrassed about that. He could still spin it a little bit, man, too. You know what I'm saying? He's not bad.

He's a former number one overall pick. The guy has talent. Right. So there's a sense of professional pride in him that would make me want to say if I'm the Rams, you know what? Maybe we're drafting our quarterback this year. Maybe we do it this year. Maybe it's a second round guy or third round. Just somebody puts, maybe we trade up to get a guy.

And we put the Alex Smith honorary pressure on him and see how he responds to it. Because this is what Kansas City did in 2017. Like they knew they were making the change of quarterback sooner rather than later. they drafted, they traded up to draft the future of their franchise. I just talked to Alex Smith this week. He was like, I knew that how good he was. It was just a matter how long I could hold him off. I think, you know, Jared Gough is obviously younger than Smith was,

but I do feel like golf has a sense of professional pride. You heat him up a little bit with some real, with a real threaded quarterback behind him. He might respond with the best year of his career. And that's what you're looking for from the Rams anyway, right? Elevated quarterback play. I'm just saying I don't feel it's a lost cause for them either way, whether they trade them or whether they're forced to keep them. But I do feel like no matter what, there has got to be another premium asset used on bringing a quarterback into that building for that team to take the next step.

And I think that's easier if he's not on the roster. I think that's much, much easier. And if you look at it, because he has such a high base salary, teams could get creative with it, right? Let's say you don't have a ton of money in 2021, but you need a quarterback. Like if you're the Bears, for instance. you could trade for that deal, convert a good chunk of that, let's say 20 million of it even, into a signing bonus, have his cap number in 2021 be like $5 million and just say, we'll eat it next year when the cap bounces back and we're not as bad of a position. I think that there is some wiggle room there. And if you need to get creative, he's a possible creative solution.

He could be, but I'd be looking for the upgrade too. And I think this is where you still have to be confident. in your evaluation process, you're confident in your development process, because at the end of the day, he is what he is. And I actually feel like if you're the Rams, the path to the next quarterback can be had with him on the roster. It's just, you know, you better make sure you're on point with your evaluation of quarterbacks in the top 100.

You can get a guy, you know, if you really like him, or maybe move up to the late first round. We've seen Lamar Jackson was picked 32. You know, trust your evaluation. We already know that Shanahan system is very friendly for quarterbacks. You know, like, that's one thing they've got going for them.

So that's just from where I'm at because to me, he might be the perfect bridge quarterback, but all these other teams are looking to elevate that position too. And, you know, it's not like he stinks. He doesn't stink.

But if you're thinking about, all right, are we going to pay this money or do we trust our evaluation and draft a guy we like and the only system he knows is what we've got? I don't know. I'd be looking for the upgrade there. I think that makes total sense.

Again, it's only an option if you're in a bad spot and you're a little bit desperate. But there are a lot of teams, I think, that are a little bit desperate. Which teams do you think are in a bad spot and are a little bit desperate? Chicago, I think is the best answer. Aren't you a bear fan? I am. I don't, trust me. I wouldn't be thrilled about Jared Gough.

I wouldn't be thrilled about Jared Gough. I'm just saying that it's, he's a potential option in the same way that Garoppolo is an option. None of those guys that are going to be available at a low price are excited. that's why they're available for a low price. That's the problem. So, I mean, I'd have to think about it a little bit more, but like, I don't know, if you're Washington, for instance, and you lose out on the Matthew Stafford kind of whatever,

the sweepstakes that we're about to talk about here, just teams that come up empty, teams that don't get their guy when the musical chairs are over, can you sit there and say, is Jerry Goff better than the other options we have? I think there are several teams, even if you're not that excited about it, that if they're being honest with themselves,

would probably say yes when it's all said and done. You know what? And one thing that lends itself to that case is that, you know, like Chicago, like they need to make the playoffs this year. You know, if you're desperate and you know that this thing is in, maybe you don't have time to develop the quarterback, you know, maybe you do spend the dice on golf knowing that, hey, we're going to put in the McVeigh system, hope he starts cooking, you know, because at the end, because I mean, you watch the Bears. What they were doing with Trubisky toward the end of the season was fairly similar. So they've already had been able to show some success doing it.

Maybe that'd be interesting. All right. Let's get to a guy who is getting traded by all accounts. Adam Schaefter reported today that teams have already started to call about Matthew Stafford in Detroit. It always felt like this was the best option for both parties. Detroit being able to start over to say that it's time for us to really hit the reset button and tear this down.

Matthew Stafford getting a chance to make the most out of the end of his career. So when you're thinking about Matthew Stafford Destinations, who were the first couple teams that come to mind? Okay. So I'm a Detroit guy, so I've watched a lot of Stafford by career. I do think it's time. I was calling for this on my podcast two months ago. Like, it's time. Because Stafford, honestly, he threw some interceptions this year that he shouldn't have been throwing. Like, some of his interceptions, and you have to be a guy who watches them every week to understand. Some of them were. I mean, they're the kind of intercepts that, like, fourth-year pros don't make.

So, like, now that means that, okay, yeah, the gun is still there, and we know he's tough, and he's motivated to be, to, like, maximize the rest of his career. But, you know, I also think that he's still fairly pocket-oriented, and he needs to be surrounded by talent and insulated. You know, you insulate and protect an old quarterback, like you protect a, young quarterback. And that's why the number one choice for me is Indianapolis. I love the coach for him.

That's a great spot. It's a dome team. They have arguably the game's best offensive line. Certainly it's best young offensive line. A tremendous run game. Jonathan Taylor's only going to keep getting better. An unbelievable play caller, Frank Wright. A guy who helped make Carson Wins look good, obviously, in retrospect.

And they have a ready-made Super Bowl caliber defense right now. you know like listen philip rivers this is the right time for philip to retire he had a nice season this year but this is stafford like he needed to be insulated by all that and stafford offers basically a higher upside rivers play and it may be give us a chance to see what this guy who's been unbelievably talented could really do with the right infrastructure and talent around him um you know other teams obviously the saints like if sean peyton said he wanted matthew stafford great here we go. If Payton Co-s signs on a quarterback, I'm all in because I trust them doing that. But to me, you know, those are two dome teams with a lot of talent and a great play caller and head coach is ready-made to win right now.

And the New Orleans thing could be pretty tricky because of their cash situation, you know. But Indies got the money. They've got the general man. And this. You can't underrest they made this. I covered John Dorsey. All right. I covered Chris Ballard when they were in Kansas City. Those guys are close, right? Those guys are really close. Chris Ballard was a faithful lieutenant to John Dorsey in every way during the tenure here. John Dorsey reportedly joined the Lions front office. So there's a ready-made connection between Dorsey and Ballard, ready to make that trade.

By the way, you can send Stafford to the other conference. You don't have to deal with them. As far away as possible. So that is marriage possible for Matthew Stafford. And, you know, for his sake, I hope they figure that out. And as somebody who has enjoyed the cold team building process, I hope they land them too. I think that's the best thing they can do.

It's my number one thing as well. I just think that it makes the most sense. I'd like to see it happen. The conversation that executives are having about Stafford right now, based on conversations I've had and just speculation is this. You look at what he's done in Detroit and how much are you going to allow yourself to fall in love with the talent? because when he's warming up

and he's throwing the ball around, there's nobody that looks better. We know that. He has a million dollar arm, but why hasn't he been more successful in Detroit? And I think there's a reason for that. The infrastructure has not been such that would lift him up. The talent has not been there.

I think last year you saw with weapons, with a downfield play action type system, what he could be. He was fourth in the NFL and EPA per play before he got hurt. I don't think he's a top five quarterback, but let's say he's a top 10. quarterback with the right help. That's somebody that's worth giving up a first round pick for

and paying $20 million a season for the next two years. I'm sure they'd give him some guaranteed money, whatever. But you can have him at a relatively affordable price. And I think that you have to understand that he's not going to be a cure-all. And that's what you need help. You need the support system, whether it's schematic or talent,

to help make him the best version of himself. if you're going to trade a first round pick for him, you need to believe that you have the pieces in place to make him worth trading a first round pick for. And I think the teams that could say that are Indianapolis in San Francisco, where you know everything we have right now, we can turn him into a top of the quarterback. Washington, I think, is a reasonable destination.

I can understand why they'd want him, but I don't think they can say that. They can't say we can trust that right what we have in place right now, With the talent, the scheme, everything, we know he's worth it. The Colts and the Niners, I think it both say that. I like the Niners. I really like that. You got Kyle Shanahan.

Again, the Shanahan scheme that goes back to his dad, it helps the quarterback. If they can just get healthy, you know, defensively, like, it's a great defense. Like, they've got everything they need to make another run with that guy. But, you know, Washington, I'm sure Washington would want him. If I'm Stafford, I just left an organization that doesn't know how to win games. Exactly. And look, I love, like, some of the hires have been great. There's diversity in the hires that matters.

You know, Dan Snyder had to do that. But, like, the ownership in his history, it's just, how can you ever have faith that it would really, really get going right? And I'm somebody who thinks Ron Rivera deserves some real coach of the year consideration for what he did this season. I totally agree. I know that was a bad division. But, you know, he managed all these situations and dealt with it without having cancer. Like, that team's headed in the right direction on the field. But you and I both know you talk through executives and coaches and players in this league that you don't just win because you're talented.

Or you don't just win because you got a great staff and good players. You win because the organizational culture in general is all point and it's right. And that's how you sustain it. Anybody can have a good season. But if you want to do a year after year, things have to be in alignment. And because of the president of Snyder, I don't know if you can ever believe for sure that that's going to stay in alignment and that this momentum their building is going to keep going. And that stinks because I love that defense. I know it's a football dirk, you probably will love watching them too.

You know, sweat and Chase Young, that's a heck of a lot of fun. But if I'm Chase, but if I'm Matthew Stafford, I really wouldn't want to, you know, going from Detroit to Washington, I just, no. Like, send me somewhere with a front office I trust, right? Like, I just, I got to go to a front office I trust. You hope you're the final piece. If you're Stafford, I think that's what you got to hope for. You got to hope that you can go in and succeed immediately.

You don't have to put it on your shoulders. even if you're excited about the direction, they still have so much work to do offensively that it would be a big lift. And I know he doesn't necessarily control the destination, but I promise you there are conversations happening with his people and lines ownership, as there should be when a guy has been your quarterback

for a decade. Same reason that Bill Belichick ended up sending Jimmy Garapo to San Francisco and not somewhere else. He wanted him to succeed. He'll have some say, Robert, and that's why that Dorsey Ballard connection matters. I think that it's a great, it makes total sense, and I think that I would love to see that happen. Can I ask you something interesting? Sure. I'm really interested in your football

insight too, because I think we're on the same page on a lot of things. Let me ask you this. If the Indianapolis coach get Matthew Stafford, is that team good enough to beat Kansas City in the AFC championship game? I think they have as good a chance as anybody, I guess, is the way that's right. I think that's right. Right there with Buffalo, right? Let's see Buffalo and Indie again. Like, I'd love to see that. So if you're indie, you do it. It would depend on what they do with their other resources this year. So let's say, so here's, this is, this is a question worth asking. So they have, I think, the 21st pick, right? Would you just give up the 21st pick with Matt for Matthew Stafford? I would. Yeah, I would too. So I think if that's the price, I would do it. Okay.

So I'd give up a third too. I would. I'd give up a third too. Like, but that, you know, that's kind of the limits. I tend to agree with you because I think he's good enough that if you don't give up that if you let's say you don't throw in the sweetener there right i think he's good enough that if he landed somewhere else and played great you'd just be sitting there saying fuck we mess this up like i mean it's i know they're so close robert and that's why that's why i think that chris ballard man is a patient guy and he is never going to do something that he doesn't want to do and i think that jim mersey deserves some credit for allowing him to operate on that timeline a lot of GMs aren't given the freedom to act that way.

And I think that it's really fueled Ballard's ability to never get pushed into these decisions. I think that he has an amazing job. He does an amazing job of balancing being consumed by making his team better, which he is, and never doing it out of obligation or panic. And I think that that's really hard to do. But I also think that at a certain point, you need to push your chips in. And I think that Stafford is the way to do that.

So, but now, let's say you've spent the first round pick on Stafford. and then you have to pay the $20 million, $25 million or whatever that he would command. Now that $60 or so million in cap space that you had starts shrinking. You don't have a left tackle and you're receiving court now misses T.Y. Hilton. So now, and then Xavier Rhodes is a free agent. He was on a one-year deal. We like to think that it's the last piece. But in reality, when you start giving up picks and salary, it's not the last piece anymore.

You need to fill out your roster in a couple other spots. I trust their ability to do that, but I also think that they're standing within the AFC is dependent on how a couple of those other moves go. I think that's really well said because, you know, this is also a team like, yeah, like they got a lot of cab space. You get in staff and you'll lose some, but, you know, if they handle that left tackle situation and they sign, you know, a veteran receiver that's competitive and can come in and help them.

And I like some of their guys, you know, like Michael Pittman Jr., I like him, you know, I know they're still high on Camwell, though he keeps getting hurt. Like they have some web. And the Ty Wight Hill is a good player. He's just hurt all the time. But I'm with you. Like, if they can just add some of those pieces and continue to build the roster, that team's going to be really good.

And I trust Ballard's ability to finish off the roster if they get Stafford. Like, I don't think this team's far away at all. And I think if you're, if you're Ballard, I'd go far enough to make sure I get that guy. Like, I don't know what the line is, you know, as far as giving up too much, but he's clearly taking a like, we need our windows now approach. He gave up a first round pick for DeForest Buckner.

I think that pick ended up being Javon Kinlaw, or it could have been Kinlaw. So, no, it could have been Kenlaw. Who, you know, has a ways to go to be refined, but as a really strong guy, I take notes on all these games and multiple times, I'm like, oh, man,

San Francisco 99 is strong. You know, like, it's like, yo. But my point is, the windows now, and if you're Ballard to finish the job, I don't know what the price is as far as they being too high for Stafford, but it'd be a lot. Like, finish the job.

Get the guy, finish the roster. So one team that we talked about, we didn't talk about in regard to Stafford or looking for a veteran quarterback, I think in part because of price is Pittsburgh. And we'll see what happens with Ben Rothesburg, but you recently wrote about how you think that Dwayne Haskins landing there

is the best possible outcome for him. Why do you think that? Because I think it's a really, really good spot for it. him too. Yeah, I do too. And I wrote this like three months ago. When he first got benched, I put this in, right? I'm like, kind of like to see him in Pittsburgh. For a lot of the reasons we talked about

with the Lions, like the organizational stability wasn't there in Washington. They never wanted him in the first place. And hey, listen, anytime you need to develop a first round quarterback, we all know the thing you definitely want to do is hand him to a coach that doesn't want him. Right? That's great. That's great for the development.

But Jay Gruden knew he was on the hot seat. He didn't want this guy. And Dwayne Haskin, knew he didn't want him. So this is the type of organizational and competence that makes guys bust. Now, granted, Dwayne Haskins did a lot of this on his own, too. He admitted after he was released that he didn't uphold himself to the standards of an NFL quarterback. And, you know, he has got to approach it like more of a professional based on those words. But here's what we also know. Yeah, he's a little more pocketbound than you like in today's NFL. But he also has an extremely strong arm. And there were a lot of people that really liked him as a full-fueled reader.

He only started one year at Ohio State. So this was always a guy that needed to go to the right place and a staff that believed in him and would be patient with him and develop him. He didn't really get any of that to an adequate degree. So I liked him going to, I like him going to Pittsburgh because that's a stable organization. That's a great head coach. and his new agent, Brian Levy, is also the agent for Mike Tomlin. So there should be built-in trust here. That should matter. And as long as Dwayne Haskins can approach his day job with professionalism,

help out the starter, work diligently toward trying to get better, be a great scout team quarterback. He can continue to develop. Like, I saw this in New Orleans with Teddy Bridgewater, man. I went there last year. This was after he started and won those four games in a row. and I was just talking, it was December, so he was a bench guy then too. But I was just walking around in the locker room, talking to those guys.

Like the respect he'd earned by his diligence on the scout team is what made them play for him. That's what made those guys play for him during that stretch. And I think, you know, for Haskins, you got, this is the time to be a professional. Show everybody what you can do. And this is a great spot for him. Ben Rafflesberger's older. I don't think any of us have loved what we've seen from Mason Rudolph. Dwayne Haskins has a lot of talent.

Approach it like a pro, see where the chips fall. I think it'd be really interesting. For him, this is a great spot. And here's the hoping he can figure it out. I think it's good for both parties. Because I think that they needed a cheaper option and a high upside option. That's why, to me, they were always a worthwhile darnal destination.

Because if you're thinking about, let's say Rutherstburg retires, right? You're still paying them $20 million. And I think you have to think about the cap as it revolves around certain position groups. Don't think about we're paying Robisberger $20 million. If you bring in Haskins, think we're paying the entire room $21 million. I think that's the way to think about it. And with the guy that's cheap, you're able to do that.

And he's a guy that has first round talent, all of that. I think it makes total sense. All right. Let's stop talking about teams that weren't in the conference championship game and get into some of the teams that were in the conference championship game. I love going back through, and executives do this, a lot of people do, going back through the final four rosters and seeing what kind of lessons we can learn from that. So as you look at the four teams that were in the conference championship games two days ago,

what is the first takeaway you have about the way those teams were built and what you think can apply to other teams moving forward here? All right. See, I have an abundance of notes here, too, so let me pair them down. I think for the chiefs and the bills, the lesson here is don't be afraid, if you trust your evaluation ability and your head coach,

who's currently in place is going to be your head coach for a long time, don't be afraid to draft to go up and get your quarterback. Both the chiefs and the bills went and did that. And they not only did that, they also are a great example of how you develop them. Let's think about Kansas City. Patrick Mahomes came into an offense that was fairly ready, ready to roll because Alex Smith, offensive line, he had his two book-in tackles, he had Kelsey, he had Ty Hill, he had, I mean,

these were all guys that Mahomes had in 2017. Then they signed Sammy Watkins like, okay, he's got a full deck around him, okay? That has helped his development. Josh Allen, this is even more applicable going forward for other teams. Josh Allen walked into a team where the bills were not shy about trusting their evaluation and signing veterans and surrounding him with veterans to help ease his transition. Think about some of the signings they made. Yeah, they drafted Deon Dawkins. And my home's trade helps stock the talent, stock the cupboard, right?

But, you know, think about, you know, they signed, you know, Crawl. They signed Johnny Brown. They traded for Stefan Diggs. You know, like they insulated him with talent. Like they drafted Cody Ford. Like they worked really hard. They signed Cole Beasley. How could I not mention him?

Like a lot of these guys were veterans who were ready to play and ready to help. And I think that that's a real key. When you draft a young quarterback, make sure, A, you're not afraid to go up and get them if you really believe in the talent. And you have, and your coaches do too. That matters too, right? Because both these guys have had the same coordinators during their tenures and the same coaches.

But also make sure you're dropping them to a situation. where he can lean on the veterans while he grows. And actually, as I think about it, Robert, I mean, that's a pretty good example. Mahomes and Allen, they had a lot of advantages built in that Dwayne Haskins didn't have. And you saw what happened. You know, what happens if Haskins go to Kansas City or Buffalo? Like, maybe he probably don't rip it up like those guys, but he certainly, he might not bust out either. Like, that matters.

Infrastructure matters, insulate and your young quarterback matters. I totally agree. And I think one of the ones that I had was the corollary of that in some ways. And it's that the quarterback can be the last piece, not the first piece. You can build it that way. And that's what we saw in the same language. Mahomes was you had Kelsey there. You had Tyree Kill there.

You had Mitchell Schwartz there at the time. You had Eric Fisher. You had your bookends there. You drop him in as the final piece. You are willing to trade the capital to go get your guy. Ellen is a little bit different because they built so much of that team his second season. But if you look at it, it's a lot of free agents.

So the same is true for the draft capital. You don't have to use the draft capital. And you don't have to pick the quarterback and then draft players around him. You can use your draft capital to go get the quarterback and then drop him into a situation where you kind of smartly surround him with players. And that's what the bills did,

even if the timeline was a little bit different. But think about what happened with the bucks. Same deal. Team is ready. Team is ready and they went out and got Tom Brady. So I think, and the Colts with Stafford would be another example of that, right? Even the Colts with Rivers who got to the playoffs. I think that you shouldn't be afraid to say, let's be patient with our quarterback,

let's wait to take the swing, let's build a system around him, let's have the infrastructure in place that we feel good about making a push for our guy. The bills, it happened at the same time. The Chiefs, there was an order of operations and the same thing is true for the Bucks. And I like the fact that there was a slight differentiation between the Chiefs the bills because the homes are literally dropped into it. But if you, as long as this process happens, you can speed it up. Like, by the second year, you can, you can surround the guy with veterans as free agents as

long as there's veteran talent around him by that second year. Because that's when, like, there's a lot of pressure. Like, there are a lot of eyes on the quarterbacking year, too. Like, that's when that stuff needs to really be in place. And I know this, talking to multiple executives, like, there are teams that are going to be copying the bills game plan for years to come. So like even if you don't know, like let's say you get the draft process and you're like, man, we hope he can trade up for this guy. Then you actually can.

All right, we know what we basically got from the time you draft to the next. You've got 12 months here to surround this guy with veteran talent to give him his best chance for success in year two. And that's the key. That's how you do it. I think it would be fun and interesting to watch teams try to copy that if they can. So one of the other lessons that I took away is very bills-centric, but I think it applies to the other teams as well. When you're thinking about skill position players,

don't think about adding the most talent. Think about adding the talent that fits together. And if you look at all of the teams that are left, I think the three teams that really accept by this best would be the bills, the chiefs, and the bucks. If you look at their skill position players and you just think about them, just imagine them on the field together. Cole Beasley does a little bit something different than John Brown does.

Stefan Diggs is a little bit something different than both of them do. Mike Evans is a specific type of player. Chris Godwin is a power slot who does something very different than what Mike Evans does. Scotty Miller is a little seasoning of speed that you need on every single team. Okay. You go and you look at the Chiefs, obviously, Malhombs and, or excuse me, Kelsey and Hill are perfect compliments to one another. You're affecting the game in different areas.

And I think if you look at the Packers, that was a concern I had for them coming into the season is that they're receiving talent outside of Devante was a little homogenous to me. You had guys that were built similarly that moved in similar ways and that showed up in that last game. When you don't have anybody

that you are afraid of in space and you have a lot of big guys that can get to a high top speed but don't have a lot of quickness, you're not afraid to play press man coverage against them and push them around a little bit. And that's exactly what the bucks ended up doing. So I think that that's another.

area where the packers, not even only adding a receiver, but adding a different sort of receiver to the ones they had would have been helpful for them. And I think the other extension of this, similar to what you talked about with the bills, if you look at what they, obviously Stefan Diggs is a splashy move, right? I mean, you get a first round pick for him. But if you look at the signings of guys like John Brown and Cole Beasley, and if you look at the defense, for example, in the defensive front especially, it's okay to build your team through free agency if you do it in ways where you spread out the money.

Don't think about maximizing your rookie contract, your quarterback's rookie contract by saying, we need to go out and trade two first round picks for ex-player and give him $25 million a year. The bills didn't have a single guy on their roster making more than 6.7% of the salary cap this year. That to me is the smart way you could build through free agency. It's not about big ticket guys. It's about making sure you have no holes. And I think that was the really smart thing that the bill.

I like that. I like that. And I mean, this goes back to the evaluation and the marriage of the scouting and coaching staff, right? The scouting staff and the front office has to be able to get players that fit into the scheme and what the coaches want to do. And I know that sounds obvious to a lot of people, but believe me, that that's not like a given in this league. Like that marriage can sometimes be off. And that leads to players that the staff doesn't want or don't believe in, hence Levy on Bell. in the New York market. He just flushed that money down the drain, right? So that's a good thought. Here's mine. This is something we have to remember. If you're going to meaningfully contend for a title, you need two guys that can rush the passer for sure that you got to account for.

You need two of them, all right? Interesting. Okay. Tampa Bay and, you know, Shaq Barrett and Jason Pierre Paul were terrorists this past weekend. I know some of that had to do with David Bakhtiari being out, but those are two really good pass rushers. The Packers have the Smith brothers. The bills have been able to generate pressure with Jerry Hughes.

He's a really underrated player. You know, Mario Addison and Ed Oliver, like they've been able to find enough. And then the Chiefs have Frank Clark, who gets criticized a lot, but really raises his game in the postseason and has become a closer of sorts. He always gets sacks in big games. And Chris Jones, who is the second best interior pass. rusher in football behind Aaron Donald. Like I think when your team building, you're looking at quarterback, left tackle,

like dynamic receiving threat, downfield, dynamic short receiving threat, pass rusher, cover linebacker and corner. Like you need all that with two pass rushers. And it is hard to contend if you don't have two guys that can get after the quarterback and then sprinkle them around. It's tough. You need two. So I think I used to believe that more ardently than I do now.

And here's the reason why. You know me. I love pass rushers. I'd build the whole team out of them if I fucking could. But my problem here is that I think you have to be smart with resource allocation on defense. Because building through defense is a losing proposition a lot of the time. Oh, that's true. Pass rushers are so expensive.

And if you look at a lot of these teams, I think one of the things that has consistently popped up in my mind is having one queen on the chessboard in the back four, back five now, and one in the front four. The chiefs, I think if they had to do it all over again, I'm not sure they make the Frank Clark trade. I don't think that their returns on that are worth it. I think they do it again. You think so. Okay. I do.

I think that that deal is very aggressive and it hasn't working out because they're really, really good. but I think that the most important players on that defense are Chris Jones and Tyrone Matthew. And it's having one guy at every level, one guy at both levels that can do everything, right? Matthew can line up on guys in the slot and he can be your robber guy. You have Jones that demands double teams. I think the Rams are a perfect example of this with Ramsey and Donald. Having a guy on each level that can be the center of their own universe in a way and have everything revolve around that. Have one guy that flips the math for you up front and in the back.

and then try to build all the everything else around that. I think that Carlton Davis was like that in a certain way for the bucks against the Packers. If you go look at that game plan, he's moving with Devante Adams into the slot. He's able to be a guy that does a lot of different things. And then around that in the secondary, you get a lot of guys who can be physical, guys that are all in the six foot, 200 pound range that you think, all right, at the very least, we can push you around. that's how the chief's secondary is built

and that's how the buck's secondary is built. And I honestly think that in a way, the Packers are similar, which I hear Alexander, where you have that one guy you can rely on. They don't use him in that way, but I think they could. So that's kind of the way I'm thinking about it.

Do I have one guy in the back end, whether it's a corner for the most part, because Matthew is a hybrid, you have a corner and then one guy up front that can command double teams and then you run some games around that. So that's my thing. Can you have a center of the universe

in your front four and your back seven to revolve everything around and build that way because you can't spend that much money on high quality talent on defense if you want to be good every single year. I don't know if that's the answer, but I think that in a world where defense matters less, that's how I would try to think about it. I would never, especially in today's NFL where it's only going to get harder to play defense, like they're not going to make it easier to play defense. I'm pretty resolute on the fact that you do need to.

And if you got to draft one guy and you got to space it out, like, that's fine. But it's important. I mean, even Leonard Floyd, like, Leonard Floyd had like 10 and a half sacks this year. And some of that's Aaron Donald because, like, he's getting doubled in a triple team. But there's got to be the guy to make them pay for doing that. And stunts in games don't always get home against good offensive lines. You know that as well as anybody. Like, there's got to be the guy that, okay, if we got the dominant cat,

the other guy is going to make you pay because you got to. single block. And I just, I look at these rosters in this championship weekend. And it's just, I'm like, all these guys got, all of them have two. Except maybe Buffalo, but like three to four have two. And then Buffalo is more committee. And Buffalo spends way more on the secondary than these teams do. And that's, that's part of the other thing. And they're veteran guys too in their secondary. It's pretty good. It's just, I think sometimes traditional football sense still makes sense. And having two that can rush the passer, doesn't have to be two edge rushers. It can be an interior guy and an exterior guy. I think it's still important. And I also had this,

I mean, that theory isn't, you know, I mean, it's still, the common sense theory still applies to it. Like, you don't, you wouldn't want to overpay two linebackers or two defensive back. Like, an overpay is an overpay and it hurts you no matter what, unless the guy shows up when it really matters. So I just have a hard time separating this conventional football wisdom that actually I still think applies from, you know, the overpay stuff, which, you know, overpay hurts you kind of no matter what, no matter where it is. I think it's just a matter of not, of knowing I won't have that many resources to spend on defense and I shouldn't spend that many resources on defense. And I think a lot of analytically forward teams are thinking this way. I think that they understand the positions and the

side of the ball where it's smart to spend their money. And I just think that I want one corner that I know I can play man to man against whoever I need to. And whether that's man to man. I agree with that, by the way. Or locked on the backside of zones like Jalen Ramsey is whatever. A guy that I can trust one at one.

And then I'll build the rest around it with bigger physical guys. I think a lot of teams have done that. The Rams aren't as big and physical. You know, Troy Hill and Darius Williams are undersized. But I think that they've played it, you know, they play a slightly different style of defense. And then safeties,

I'm not paying safeties anymore for the most part. I think that I would always look for a guy that's smarter rather than more gifted. Yeah, got to be special. And I think linebacker, I would never spend a high pick on a linebacker again. I would play it the same way that I would with running backs where I want to. And even but a guy like Devin White, right, who can do some things for them with a blitzer, everything else, I still think you can get more out of a guy with a better football sense that didn't run a 4-440 than you can. can get out of Devin White in today's NFL.

That's just how I feel about it. I just think that that position is just hard to extract value from based on the way the game is currently played. That's interesting. And that's true. But I think that, you know, there's a fine line here too because, like, good football players and good football players. So you always want to be getting the most value you can out of a position.

But you also want to make sure. sure like, you know, somebody like Devin White who's only going to continue to get better, like he can really, really run. My only addendum to what you said about, like, linebackers, like, I wouldn't draft when it, like, you got, if you take a linebacker that high, he better be able to really, really run and help you in like sub packages and do three down, all that. And even then, like, it's tough to fully extract the value out of it, like you said, but. Because they don't flip the math.

They don't, you can't double team a linebacker. That's my thing. How about somebody like Luke Kikley? Like if the guy is special, then it, I mean, you don't pass Luke Keeley. Like, I understand that, you know, you move the game for, and that makes sense. And, you know, you is a much better chance you get a guy that can flip the map in the back end on the front four, 100%. But you also have to be careful with that, man, because, like, you know, a good football player is a good football player. And if your scout tells you that this guy might be special and he's got the football mentality and he loves the game, you know.

I don't want them in my locker room. So I think there's a fine line there for that. I really do. There's always exceptions. I just think that as a guiding principle, that's a position where I would pull back a little bit. I think the same is true for safety. I don't disagree.

Football sense to me at those two positions is way more important than what are their measurables, how fast do they run, all of that stuff. I think that there are spots where you bet on athleticism and physical talent. I think those spots are more. up front and at corner than they are in the middle of the defense for me. And I think that that's why you can find value at those spots in ways that you can't at positions where people are looking for really gifted athletes.

That's true. But you're also looking for like special football players. So like, yes. Like in general, it would take a lot for me to take a linebacker in the top 10. Like that is, you know, in today's NFL, you better take them at the positions that I listed, which again, you know, you need a left tackle. You need the quarterback. You need the dynamic receiving targets.

You need the defensive back. You need the edge rushers. That's where your resources really need to go if you're drafting that high. But I also think, you know, the bucks aren't an interesting case because while like their defense is good because of that pass rush and the interior push they get, they're also good because their linebackers can really, really run. And to get the team like Kansas City, the teams that have generally given them, it's hard to give them trouble.

But look, San Francisco played them pretty well in the Super Bowl last year. I don't think it was a coincidence. Their linebackers could really go, right? Fred Warner. Where'd you draft Fred Warner, though? Third round. But I'm not arguing that. I'm saying, like, you know, it's still important to make sure you get the speed there.

Like, I, and, you know, if you get the special football player and he's there in the first round, and that's the value attached to him, I don't believe in passing special guys. But linebackers, speed, they still better have it. And if you take a guy that high, you better make sure he can really go. And you better make sure he's pretty much can't miss too. Because missing on a linebacker at Adderally, I mean, that would kind of kill your program in today's NFL. I totally agree. And I think that if Devin White didn't have those splash plays and we were just talking about him more in coverage,

he's been a liability there at times in a way that guys like Devante David and Fred Warner, who maybe aren't as physically gifted, you can get outside of the first round. Even Bobby Wagner was a second round pick. And I just think those things are worth kind of considering. The last one I have here. spend on your offensive line, but spend smartly. So if you look at it, the bucks and the bills are in top five, and the Packers with Bakhtiari, they're not in active spending because he's on the IR.

But those three teams with their five starters are in the top five in offensive line spending. But it's not about investing in your offensive line and spending two first round picks and $25 million on the left tackle like the Texans did. it's more important to have four to five functional starters than it is to have two stars. And I think that the bills are the best example of this. They went out and they signed Mitch Morse to an $11 million a year deal and Dawkins makes 13 or so,

but none of them have anybody that's making more than 6% of the cap. Bakhtiari just got there with his new extension. I think that making sure guys like Darrow Williams bringing him into play right tackle, making sure that you have four guys at least along the line that you think I can trust him, even if he's not a star, that's how I would try to build it. And I think that the Bucks and the Bills and the Packers got to that point, even if they do have a couple really good players on their team.

I like that. The only thing I would add to that is that in general, I believe in the NFL you can really get by on the interior with smart, tough guys. I agree. guy is smart and the guy is tough from guard to center to guard, you don't have to invest the resources there as long as they're smart and they're tough and they're being coached well. Where I believe in devoting resources two of both tackles. Like that's a big deal.

That can really help you if both your tackles can block, especially in past block. That's an advantage. And, you know, everything, you never want to overpay. But I have no problem driving tackles or giving money to tackles that you think fit well within your scheme because for the most part, the disruptors in this game are coming off the edges. And you better be able to block these guys because if you can't. It's just going to be a long day. It's the last real defense that the defense has, which is rushing the quarterback. So I don't have an issue at all with devoting a lot of resources to tackles.

And on the interior, find smart, tough guys coach them up well, you'll be okay unless they're special. Like you're going to end up paying Quentin Nelson. Like you're going to pay. If a guy's special, you pay them. But outside of that, no, man, like that, that, the interior line position is absolutely where value matters. And, you know, in a world where more money is going to be soaked up by those positions we keep mentioning that are so important, a team building, you better make sure that if you are spending money on the O line, it goes especially to the outside, unless they're special. Here's what I would say. I completely agree with that. But let's present two cases.

let's say you can have Laramie Tunsell and a below average left guard or you can have Dion Dawkins and let's say, I know they don't play next to each other, but in this hypothetical, you can have Dion Dawkins and John Feliciana. Which one do you choose? I would rather have the latter, right? I agree.

But just because you have tonsil doesn't mean your left guard has to suck. I just mean if you had to choose in terms of resources. Oh, I'm with you. I'm with you. but just because you have tonsil doesn't mean that, you know, you got to have a below average guard. That means that I think if you bake the overpay on tonsil, you have to say, and I know you can't,

there's not like a guard tree, an average guard, you know what I mean? But I think that as an organization, if you're team building, you can prioritize what you're going to get, right? And I think the point of getting tonsil is to make your offensive line above average. And having a below average guard helps negate the point of getting tonsil. So you can't get tonsil unless you can have the other part too. You understand what I mean? Like I just, I don't feel like there's a, I feel like if you get tonsil, okay, fine,

but to really make it work, you better make sure you have these other pieces too. Yeah, I just think if you have $25 million or $23, I'd rather spend $14 on the tackle and seven on the guard than 23 and one. I think that that's kind of the way that I would think about it. And I think that that's what the bills did. They spread out money at those positions instead of paying, really premium prices. And they may not have you had an option,

but I just think that that's the way I would think about it. I'd rather have two guys that are solid at those positions than one guy that's great and one guy that I can't really trust. I think if you were a GM, you would have traded, if you were a GM, you would have traded Laramie Tonsul? I would have signed him the moment that I traded for him.

That's the thing. I think if you were a GM, I know you, I know you, I know you, Robert. I know you like linemen. You like good alignment. I would not have traded. two first round. I've traded, I changed my tune on this. There is not a player I would trade two first round picks for at any position except for quarterback. Okay, I could, that's a, that's a discussion,

but that's a good one. I get that, but my point is like, if you're, if you were the Dolphins' GM, I think you pay tonsil, but I also think that you will make sure that you maximize the value of tonsil by not putting the scrub next to them. Like, I think, I think you have the foresight to do that, right? Like, I don't think that's a if, or I don't, I don't, I don't think, that that's a proposition that it has to be that other way. I think if you have Tunsel, you keep a good football player

and you make sure you do what these other good teams do and you maximize the good football player by trying to at least have an average smart, tough interior guard next to him and you can get by. And I say that as somebody that watches the chiefs closely, and I can tell you, man, they spent money on their tackles.

We know Mitchell Schwartz is outstanding. I know you know that. Fisher has gotten a lot better on the interior, what do they have? They're not spending a lot of money except for Duvenate Tardee, but for the most part, it's just smart, tough guys. You can get by with that as long as your tackles

can do the job. I tend to agree. I just think that it's worth not having holes. Don't have holes if that means spending a little bit less in the premium. That means spend a little less in the premium spots. All right, buddy, that's all we got. Guys, please go check out to Rez's work on Yahoo.

Please check out his podcast that he does with Charles Robinson. both of those guys are extremely plugged in. You're going to learn a ton of you listen to them. I promise you that. Thanks for stopping by, buddy. It's always good to chat with you. I really appreciate the time. Anytime, you know I love great football theory talk.

And I loved it, man. So thanks for having me on. This was great. I'm thrilled now to welcome the Athletics Falcons writer, Tori McElhaney, to the show to chat about what has been a pretty eventful few weeks here in Atlanta. Tori, how are you doing? I'm doing good.

I'm happy to be here. I am thrilled to have. you. I'm excited to talk about this. I think that there are two hires, both individually and together, are really interesting. So let's just kind of step back and handle them, tackle them individually here. So the Arthur Smith hire and bringing him to be the head coach, just kind of walk me through what the company line has been about the thinking of where they landed on him and why. So when you look at Arthur Smith, I think it's really interesting that this is a guy who you have seen work his way up through an organization.

said this a few times, but I really think it rings true, especially when talking to people in the Falcons organization who are making these decisions, is that when it comes to Arthur Smith, this is someone who started out in one organization, worked his way all the way up, and not only survived coaching change after coaching change after coaching change, but thrived in it and continued to grow through it. So that is the marker of someone who's a very special individual that all of these coaches kept coming in and wanting to retain him. So that was a really big deal. And then also just what he was able to do over the last couple of years in Tennessee as the offensive coordinator, I think was really exciting for the Falcons when looking at who they wanted to be the next head

coach. And I think Arthur Smith was somebody who you look at the success that he's had and you look at how many other teams wanted him this offseason, how many other interviews he had. And I think the fact that the Falcons were able to kind of win him over and were the ones that ultimately, you know, that he wanted to work for too. I mean, that's, I think that's a really big deal. And I think all of those things kind of mesh together as to why Arthur Smith is guy right now. The different staffs thing, I think is really important and really interesting. And for that reason, he reminds me of Kevin Stefansky, who also in Minnesota was there for 13 years and work for a bunch of different staffs in a bunch of different systems and saw how those systems worked.

Funnily enough, both of them landed on that Shanahan-based play action offense even after working in different systems because, as we've stated many, many times in the show, it's the best version of offense and I don't blame them for doing it. But I also think that the ways they've assembled their staff are similar in that they really point to that variety of experience. The fact that Smith brought in a guy like Dave Ragon who comes from a very different offensive background and has worked in different offenses to be his offensive coordinator. If you look at a lot of the assistance that he's brought in, they're not from that

Shanahan tree. And he came out and said during that press conference, I don't want yes men on the staff. I want it to be populated by diverse ideas, new ideas, have guys bring stuff to me that I maybe am not thinking about. And everything I've heard about him from people who've worked with him, they say he's obsessed with coming up with the next thing, with innovating the offense, with finding a new idea. It's never status quo. It's never stagnant. never static and bringing in as many different guys as they have from those different backgrounds in the same way that he has one, I think is really, really telling. Yeah, I agree. And you know, you go back and you do think about the very first thing, you brought this up talking about his

introductory press conference, the fact that he said that he doesn't want congruent ideas all the way across the board. He doesn't want yes, man. He wants so many different opinions because that's the way that you see growth. And I think he, said this, he was like, I don't want people to be comfortable. We want to be uncomfortable. And we want to have debates. We want to have discussions. I mean, when you think about all that, that's the marker of not just a good football team or a good football organization. That's a good marker of any business. And in my opinion. And I think that's something that. And any good leader too. Yes, exactly. Yes. Very much. So and I think that is something that right off the bat,

he's brought. And I remember talking to somebody there after last season, just talking. about how you kind of stave off regression. When you look at their offense in some of the ways they were successful in Tennessee in 2019, there's some elements of it that just aren't sustainable. Tana Hill's performance under pressure was the best it had ever been in his entire career, and that's not typically sticky. He averaged over 11 yards per attempt on play action. It was the best play action number since Peyton Manning in 2013.

You're never going to do that again. You can't be the same thing you were from year one to year two and expect the same results. And he just was adamant about telling the guy, the guys on that staff, we need curve balls to the fastball. We need curve balls to the fastball. And I just think that's a way, especially when that guy is in charge, for you to have a reliable but slightly updated version of your offense every year. And I think that's just the easiest way to be successful year in year out in the NFL. Yeah. And I think if you look at it, just what he's taking over in Atlanta and the makeup of the offense in Atlanta.

Granted, we don't know how things are going to shake out. We don't know if he's going to have Julio Jones. We don't know how much longer he may have Matt Ryan. I mean, they may be looking to rebuild. They may be looking towards the future when those guys aren't there anymore. And so the fact that he, Arthur Smith, is kind of coming into this situation, knowing that there are going to be a lot of moving pieces here, not just in 2021, but beyond. And I think that goes back to what you're saying, just being able to.

to be super flexible in what you're doing and how he's been able to do that over his career. So the guy making those decisions about Matt Ryan and Julio Jones and the roster in general is Terry Fontna, who's the first year GM now who came over from New Orleans. You think about the way New Orleans has been able to add and retain and also fit in talent over the last five years or so. And the Falcons, I've always thought it was a really,

it made sense in my mind the marriage between Fontenow and Atlanta because Blank has been willing to spend to the cap essentially every single year. He's been willing to maximize the roster in similar ways that New Orleans has. And not every owner is like that. You know, you look at the salary cap and what's available. That's one thing. The amount of cash the owner's willing to spend is an entirely different thing. And Blank has been willing to do that every year.

He gave Thomas Dimitrov the resources to do that. And I think Fottano being comfortable with that sort of approach in New Orleans makes him a logical choice for what they want to do in Atlanta. So your initial impressions of him just based on what he has said, and if you had to kind of make a guess and throw it dark about what the shaping of the roster is going to look like over the next year, whether they're going to try to maximize it like they did in New Orleans or whether there's going to be a little bit of a mini rebuild.

Where do you come down on that? So I'll go with the first question about my first impression. It's a terrible, terrible hosting job by me. That's like the shittiest reporting. Like a journalism professor would destroy me for that. But anyway, go ahead. It's all good. We all do it. So the first question about my first question about my first.

impressions of Terry Fontno, I was very impressed. Here's someone who I, you know, this is my first time talking really to a GM at all. I never got the chance to talk to Thomas Demetroff in an interview setting at all. Like I came on this job in August and I mean, he and Dan Quinn were gone within the first, you know, month and a half. So I have not had the opportunity to really see. how GMs work. And so for Terry Fonno to be my very first look into that was very interesting because he is very personable. I feel like you could stick him in a room with anybody and he would be able to have a really

good, really constructive conversation with them. I was very pleased with the dialogue and the way that you could just tell how passionate he was about the job and even coming from the Saints where he has been for 18. years. He was very excited to get the reins of the Falcons. And I don't know, I really, really thought he was very passionate and all of those things came out in the hour and 30 minutes that we were able to talk to him last week. So in that regard, I think Falcons fans should be very excited about Terry Fonono. And I think it's funny because whereas Terry Fonto was almost kind of very long-winded, Arthur Smith was the opposite. You go back and you look at their transcripts that Terry Fonteno's. is like, you know, paragraph after paragraph and Arthur Smith spoke maybe two sentences. So I think that's a really fun juxtaposition of the two of them. But to go into your second question about what I think his plans are, I know when we talked to him, he wasn't very, he was very noncommittal about talking about the roster or anything

like that because both he and Arthur Smith, they were like, we want to get our coaching staff in here. We want to get our front office guys in before we really get into the next. nitty-gritty of what our plan is for 2021 and beyond. But just me personally looking at the salary cap situation, looking at what they can do through the draft, I personally think that they won't be super trying to think of the right way to say this, but I don't think they're going to sacrifice anything in the moment to work towards a rebuild.

I think they will work towards a rebuild, but in a way, that spans three or four years. I don't think you're looking at something that's going to happen right now. Do they trade Julio Jones, possibly? Do they draft a quarterback? Possibly. All of these things are question marks and all of these things that they're going to have to make decisions on this year.

But I don't really foresee a rebuild happening in 2021. I see them working with what they've got, getting through this first year with this new GM, this new coaching staff, everything's brand new. think through this first year and then after that when I think the salary cap is a little bit more manageable, then I think you start seeing more of a rebuild look. I don't know what they will do, but I know what I think they should do. And I think that they should, if they like the quarterbacks, and we'll see how the draft ends up falling, right? Miami is such a pivot point there at number three. And then we'll see what happens with the Jets. If they ended up trading for Deshaun Watson,

if they wanted to keep Sam Donald, they traded that pick, all that. It's hard to predict. But they have the fourth overall pick. It's a four quarterback draft. one of them will be there at least if they like all four of them and i don't think with their talent they'll be back in this position again and that's why i think it would make sense to draft the guy this year while you don't have to give anything up to get him so if they do that that's when it becomes a question of what does the offense look like in 2021 with matt ryan and i think that it's really worth considering matt ryan's comfort comfort level within this system and even if it's slightly different than what the Titans were doing.

It's still an offense brought to Tennessee by Matt LaFleur, who was Matt Ryan's quarterback coach for multiple years in Atlanta. He knows what he likes and dislikes within the structure of this system. And I think that's streamlines communication. The same thing goes for Julio Jones. I don't know how much they'll run that system to a T. We talked about the variety of coaches they brought in from all these various backgrounds. But I do think they have the pieces in place.

whether it's Ryan's comfort level, the talent, and the offensive coach, to be a really good offense next year, even if they end up drafting a quarterback fourth overall. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And it's funny because in the very first conversation that we had with Arthur Blank and Rich McKay after the season ended and we're going into this coaching search and everything, that was something that I asked them. I was like, how quickly do you think that this offense, you know, really this team can bounce back. Do you think a turnaround is imminent or do you think this is something that's going

to span a few years? And they both were adamant that they thought that the Falcons could be a really good team in 2021. You know, when you look at the Falcons games in 2020, I know a lot of people don't want to go back and look at those games, but I have to. It's my job. So when you go back and look at those games, they weren't out of a lot of these games. They really truly weren't. Yes, they lost and they lost in ugly fashion, but they were in these games and they could have won a lot more games than what they did. So considering that and then considering all the things that you were talking about, about the comfort level with Matt Ryan, I mean, all of those things do play into it. I personally would love to see them draft a quarterback at number four because I also agree

that I don't think they'll be there. But even in saying that, I think even if they do, that they will be a pretty good competitive team in 2021, regardless how any of this shakes out, because they do have the talent to be better. I heard this all the time. It was like, the Falcons are the worst, best team in the league. You hear that all the time. And I really believe that. I really truly believe that. You like, you can't tell me that with some of the talent that they have, that they shouldn't win more games. I totally agree. And I just think that this is something that I've really come to appreciate as I've had more conversations with quarterbacks and coaches over the last five or six years is just how much that comfort level

within a certain offense matters. And I actually talked to Matt Ryan about this recently. We were talking about year one to year two with Kyle Shanahan and Matt Lafleur. And there was a big adjustment period for him in that first year of using play action with his back to the defense. He hated it. He absolutely hated it. And that's something that by year two, you say, all right, well, I don't like when we do it this way, but what if we tweak it a tiny bit? They've already ironed that out. There are certain even route concepts within that play action offense that blaze out they run with Julio Jones where it's a deep out route and it's Julio really running 12 yards and then running it out. It's the best thing he does.

They love that and they said, let's do that more. So when they sit down for the first conversation that Smith is going to have with Matt Ryan, he already knows that that that's an answer. He's like, we loved this route concept when we're doing this sort of play action stuff. That matters. So no matter what you think about the future quarterback, what it's going to look like in 2022, I'm really excited about what it could look like in 2021 because there's already that shared language and shared communication between the head coach and this quarterback. You're absolutely right. And I think that's where a lot of people need to realize that even though we all are talking about what the Falcons could do with the draft and what the Falcons can do about maybe bringing in a quarterback to start thinking of the days when they no longer have Matt Ryan and Julio Jones, we don't know. oh, really, when that time is going to be.

And more likely than not, especially for Matt Ryan, it's not going to be where he's gone in 2021. He's not. The Falcons don't have the ability with the salary cap to do that, in my opinion. But even when we're talking about the future, it's still in the exact same breath. We can still talk about how good we think that the offense could be for the Falcons in 2021, especially, I think, if they can figure out how to do better in the run game.

I really think if they can find a better balance for if we're just really honestly getting any type of yards on the ground when it matters most, then that helps out Matt Ryan. That helps out potentially Julio Jones, Calvin Ridley. And that's where the falcons hang their hat offensively is with those guys. You need to have a little bit more balance in order to do that. And we've seen what Arthur Smith has been able to do with Tennessee in the run game, even though you're not going to have a Derek Henry with the Falcons. It's not going to happen. But you're hopeful about what they can do in 2021. And I think that they have a guy who did such a good job of designing that run game in Tennessee

and basing it around his personnel. They don't have Derek Henry, obviously. But I think they shaped that run game around Derek Henry. They didn't have Derek Henry. It wasn't a situation where like, this is our run game. Let's plug Derek Henry into it. They said, we have Derek Henry. What should our run game look like?

And I think that's really useful. And I think they'll do the same thing with this personnel. out. And I think the reason you want to lose games or the reason that you want to not be in the middle, right, is to put yourself in a position to find a quarterback of the future. They're already there.

So if they draft a guy of four, there's no downside to winning a bunch of games this year, getting the roster back, getting the franchise back on the right track. And I also think that if you drafted a Tray Lance Fourth overall, it's valuable for him to walk into work on his

first day and work with a guy every single day who's been in the league for 15 years and has an MVP award in this trophy case. I absolutely think there's value to that. So they're in this really unique spot where they have a quarterback, they have a bunch of talent, and they could possibly have their next quarterback, and they would never have to purposely lose a bunch of games.

It's a really weird position that not a lot of franchises ever find themselves in. Yeah. I mean, it's as good as a position as I think you can be in in this specific situation. And like you said, it doesn't have to be drafted in the top five. This is not a bad way to be drafted in the top five. Exactly. Yeah, this is not a bad situation. If you're one of those quarterbacks, you may want to come to Atlanta. I mean, just kind of thinking about it. Granted, I know you can go to some other places and actually play. But you think about that time, that time with Matt Ryan behind Matt Ryan, learning from Matt Ryan is valuable time. It really is because this is a guy that, yeah, I know, have the past couple of years been that great? No, but he's still throwing thousands and thousands of yards. Like he's still doing pretty good.

for himself at 30. How old is he? 34? I think he's 35 now, which is, I'm very aware because he's one of the only quarterbacks around my age. He's two years old. So I'm painfully aware of it. But it's also, look at what's happening with the Chiefs. And you know, you don't want to try to carbon copy it too much. But sitting your quarterback that you drafted high and just saying, here's a consummate pro that you can sit behind for an entire year and learn from him. And we'll see what 22, 2020 looks like, I think is a really useful example.

So I think the more problematic side of the ball is the defense. Because not only was the defense much less consistent for the last couple of years than the offense had been, but the talent level is wanting. And, Dante Fowler contract is a nightmare. And they've made a couple of those moves on that side of the ball. But one of the fascinating moves,

I think, of the entire offseason is that they managed to lure Dean P's out of retirement. And what he's been able to do with some of these defenses is fascinating. Were you able to ask anybody yet about how they managed to get him after spending the year out of football last season? So it's funny that you say that because we're actually talking to him on Friday. So I'm going to get, I promise I will get that whole story as soon as we are able to talk to Dean Pease himself. Because I am truly fascinated and curious as to why he won. I mean, personally, I think he probably has really.

good relationship with Arthur Smith, to want to come out of retirement, like to want to take the challenge, take on the challenge that is the Falcon's defense because it is a challenge. So all of those things, I mean, he has to have a good relationship with Arthur Smith. There's no doubt about it. But I will, I'll check back in so and let y'all know, I'm sure I'll write it. What, why, how it came to be. I think he is such a good choice on that side of the ball for this reason. the style he coaches with,

and especially the thing he does better than anybody, the thing he does better than any other aspect of his coaching game, is what they do with pressure looks on third down. When you've coached for 30, 40 years the way that D&Ps has, you just have this endless menu of blitzes. And they did such a good job with that in Tennessee. You talked to football nerds like Nate Tice, who I do the show with.

He loves D&Ps because that third down exotic menu is incredible. And I think when you're dealing with a team that may be a little, bit wanting in terms of talent on defense, you need to scheme some of that stuff up in those high leverage moments. And that's why I think that he makes total sense for this team because they don't have the resources to rebuild this defense in terms of personnel in a single year. Yeah. I personally think that the Dean P's hire is the most exciting one. I think it's the smartest one. I'm real, I was talking to Joe Rex Road, who's our Nashville columnist. And he was telling me a

little bit about Dean Peas and kind of what he is and kind of how he takes these defenses and these individuals who maybe don't have a lot going for them. They're not the top defenses. They're not the top individuals. Just take a look at what the Titans defense look like this year without him. Exactly. I mean, but he takes these defenses that are so lacking in some areas and he turns them into some pretty, you know, stable defenses at times. And I think that's really exciting when you're looking at the Falcons because you do have some pieces there that I think work well. Grady Jarrett, I think, is one of the best defensive tackles in the league.

And I'm not just saying that because I cover him. I really believe that watching him play. I think Dionne Jones, Foyer Iluiken, they both, I think, have done a really good job in the latter half of 2020. AJ Terrell, even in his rookie year, I thought he did some good things. Still has a ways to go, but did some good things. So there are some pieces,

but there aren't enough pieces right now to really put a lot of confidence in the Falcons defense. But I think with Dean Peas coming in and the experience and just the overall, the play caller that he is, I think you are so excited about what he could do with this defense, even not having some, a lot of, or really not having a lot of pieces available to him.

He doesn't have true pass rushing excellence. And I think that that's exactly the situation he was in with Tennessee. And to a certain degree, what he was doing at the end in Baltimore, where Terrell Suggs was a little bit at the end of it. They didn't have all these guys that, like, all right, we trust you to win on the edge consistently. They had to manufacture it. And I think that's exactly the type of defensive approach that this Atlanta team

could benefit from next year. Yeah. Tori, that's all we got. I sincerely appreciate the time. I, again, I think these hires are fascinating. I'm really excited to see what direction and everything ends up going in Atlanta. So thank you very much for doing this. And I'm sure we'll catch up at some point.

Awesome. Sounds good. All right, guys, that's all we got today. Thank you so much to Teres Pailor from Yahoo for stopping by. Really enjoyed that conversation. Thanks to Tori McElhaney for chatting about the Falcons. Really enjoyed that as well. We're doing a mailbag episode tomorrow with Lindsay Jones.

Don't be afraid to tweet us your questions. By the time you're listening to this, there's still probably time to get some in. Always appreciate the thoughtful questions we get from you guys. And then Nate and I will be back on Monday with a slightly different version of our Monday show, obviously. And then next week, every single day, we're going to be coming to you guys with something.

Monday through Friday. A lot of Super Bowl stuff, some non-super Bowl stuff. Either way, very excited about it. Thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to you guys later. This was the Athletic Football Show.