The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL free agency finances, and the NFLPA’s George Atallah joins to talk salary cap, CBA, vaccines, and much more

Episode Date: March 3, 2021

First, Robert and Lindsay break down the overall financial landscape, and realities of a depressed salary cap, heading into the free agency period, and how some of the uncertainty about the cap will impact players and teams heading into the 2021 season.Then, Lindsay is joined by Assistant Executive Director of External Affairs for the NFLPA, George Atallah, to discuss how the 2021 TV deals will affect next season’s salary cap, and its potential impact on free agency, the biggest takeaways and lessons learned from the 2020 pandemic season, players’ top priorities in the next CBA, what role vaccines could play in the 2021 season, if players could have more of a formal role in teams’ hiring processes, and more.You can get an annual subscription to The Athletic for just $3.99 a month when you visit theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Really cool show for you guys today. Lindsay actually talked to George Atala, who is the assistant. What's his title? I asked him, I was like, what do you want to be called? And he's like, just say I'm with the Players Association.

So he basically handles all like external affairs. His background, he's like a, he used to be like a fixer in D.C. So he has his hands in everything that's. going on with the NFL PA. So yeah, so I talked to him for about 40 minutes about everything that's going on with free agency, the mini CBA is what happened last year. So it was a really fun conversation and should be a really good primer for what's going to happen here over the next month or so in the NFL.

So that is coming a little bit later in the show. Before that, though, Lindsay and I are going to take you through just the financial landscape that is in place right now as we walk into free agency. I felt like we wanted to use this week to kind of set the stage for what this free agency period might look like. Yesterday's show, we talked to Sheel about the top 50 guys, just doing from the player side. Now we want to talk about just what the overall setup is for how teams might approach this and how this year is different. Obviously, you know, the cap is going to be down compared to other years, but there are some other differences as well. And we really want to

kind of dig into those. So let's get started here, Lindsay. I think that the number one thing in the conversations you and I have both had with agents, teams here over the last couple weeks that's come up is not only is the cap depressed, but there's just less information out there this year because there's no combine. This is the first year where we haven't been in Indianapolis where there are a ton of face-to-face meetings that really allow agents to get information about where their players might go, who might be in the market. There's a lot more mystery out there this year than there typically would be in a normal year. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, so the combine should have been last week. And, you know,

know, I think a lot of us who always go to the combine, you know, I think I've gone every year since 2009, except for the one year that I went to the Winter Olympics. So there was one year that I was in Russia while you all were in, uh, we're in Indianapolis. That was a weird year. I was in, I've gone every year since 2009. I've gone every year since my junior year of college. This is the first year that I'm going to, so thank you for that. But, um, I was not in college, my first combine in 2009. But, um, you know, so there was a lot of, you know, oh, we would be here. we'd all be going to St. Elmo's. I cooked a St. Elmo's dinner at home. I made the shrimp cocktail with the cocktail sauce that I ordered from St. Elmo's. But really, you know, so much just gets made about like,

oh, it's about the draft process and like the interviews that should be happening and there was no 40-yard dash on television and Rich Eisen wasn't running in his suit. That's all true. But from our perspective, from those of us who cover the NFL and from most of the people who actually work inside the NFL, the real value of the combine is everything that's happening in those conversations at the Starbucks at the J.W. Marriott and at over stakes at Prime 41 or Prime 47 and St. Elmos and all of those conversations where, look, there's a legal tampering period. I'm using my air quotes here that starts, I believe, March 15th. The tampering period really starts in Indianapolis. And you leave Indy, whether you're a reporter like us or an agent or a general

manager or head coach or a scout or any basically anybody who works anywhere within this NFL universe having an idea of which teams are going to be active spenders who the high priority free agents are going to be who is not going to hit the market because of franchise tags and while we have a little bit of an idea of that stuff right now so many of those conversations either haven't happened or they're happening much more in like very private one-on-one situations. And there's, you know, you're not, there's not groups of agents hanging out at the bars and spreading information about what, what have you heard? And I've heard this and I've heard that and reporters gossiping with each other and then everything taking off on Twitter.

So we know so much less right now. When I say we, it's not just you and me. It's everybody and it's everybody. Yeah, I mean, teams, coaches, agents, there's just a lot less information, which makes that first week when the market officially opens the middle week of March. I it's March 17th is the official first day of free agency. When that actually happens, like a lot of, there's going to be a lot more surprises, I think, is what's really going to happen. I totally agree. I talked to an agent today who represents a guy who's going to be in demand in free agency. And he said that he has twice as many questions and half as many answers for his clients right now than he would in a typical year. Because of how much uncertainty there is and how many wrenches have been thrown into this process.

and then you also don't have the conversations to kind of sort through all of that. So the confusion is coming from two different directions here, which I think is going to really make this wild. I mean, for the most part, if you're an agent of a guy who's going to be in demanded free agency, you have a sense of the six to eight teams who may be interested by the time you leave Indianapolis.

Now you have half as much information. And the number of teams is so important in dictating the market. Because if you know you're going to have a handful of teams, that are in on a guy. You know how much you can drive the price up. Now, if there's diminished interest, these teams aren't going to be bidding against one another, so it's hard to understand what the range for your guys are going to be. Because not only are you looking at precedent for contracts, but you know you can pit these teams against each other. So now, if you don't know what the landscape looks like, it's harder to gauge what guys are

going to make. And then you throw in the fact that they don't even know what the salary cap is going to be yet. The fact that teams don't know what that number is, and this year, the difference between 185 and 180 is massive for some of the teams that are up against it. There are just so many unknowns as it relates to the financial landscape of the league right now. For the most part, teams have known that it was going to be down since last summer. I mean, that is not new. So teams have been planning for that. But when it comes to the actual nickel and diming of this, there's still a lot of things

that teams don't know and people on the player side don't know either. And it's not unusual that the final salary cap number isn't no. yet on March 2nd. That's not abnormal because it's just this like very complicated accounting mechanism. What's unusual now is this is the first time in about 10 years that the cap is dropping. So, you know, usually they might not know the exact number, but they know what's climbing. So they know that there's going to be more money out there and there's going to be more teams that might be active spenders. And now there's just this uncertainty from all sides of, okay, well, are they going to have to cut more guys. Are they not going to be willing to spend? Are they only going to be able to sign

three free agents instead? Or is it going to be just one free agent? Or, you know, or they'll watch teams start allocating their resources like the Arizona Cardinals did yesterday, which is a sign that some teams are going to be willing to spend. And there are going to be kind of some big money deals out there, which I think are still going to happen. But we just don't know yet exactly where all of that money is going to go. And there's, you know, there is this concern that, you know, the kind of the middle class of the NFL might end up getting squeezed a little bit here because, you know, the stars are going to be fine. You know, if a team wants a guy and wants one of those top free agents on the market, whether it's, you know, we will have to see you and she'll got into

this really, really in depth with the conversation yesterday. And we're still waiting on a lot of the franchise tag designations. But, you know, one of the top guys on the market. Let's say, Alan Robinson doesn't get a tag in Chicago. You want Alan Robinson. He's worth it. You go spend on Alan Robinson. But are you going to be willing to spend as much on, you know, wide receiver number four, five, or six on that list who was kind of the middle tier? Or is it, are you just going to have to really wait, let the market settle? I think we're going to have a wild couple first few days and then a depression and then the second wave will set in. So let's talk about what that depressed cap really means. So not only is the cap going down from last year, but it didn't go up again. And when I say that,

when you look at what's happened over the last six or seven years, it's been at least a $10 million increase every year. So last year when the CBA was signed, which it's almost been exactly a year, right? It was March 15th. So yeah, we're just about it a year. So if you think back to that time last year, obviously the pandemic was in its early stages,

we had no idea what the long-term effect of the pandemic was going to be. At that point, it was unfathomable if there wouldn't be fans in the stands come fall. I mean, that was people just on the outside. So I think that when teams were signing contracts and thinking about their books in March of last year when free agency opened, they were signing deals and planning as if this was going to keep going up like it had. And maybe there might have even been more gains

because the TV contracts might have come into play. So teams were planning for like a $208 million cap at this time last year. So not only is it not going up to 208, it's going down to 180. So that's like a $25 million decrease from where some teams thought it were going to be, thought it was going to be as they were handing out contracts from last year. And that's why we're in this situation. And so we'll get into this more.

George, Georgia Tala and I from the NFLPA talked a lot about kind of the mechanisms of how the cap is formed and where that number might end up. But it was a big part of the negotiations that went on between the NFL and the Players Association during the summer was figuring out there, we know there's going to be relevant. new losses. So who is going to assume the burden of those losses? And from the PA side, from the union side, they didn't want one group of players. They didn't want the 2021 crop of players to assume all of that. They would prefer that because they had a long-term CBA in place, that they could spread those losses out over a number of years, knowing that there would be new television deals. And those TV deals are close. I mean, those TV deals could come in within the next few days,

even. And if that happens, the cat might actually go higher than we were expecting. I mean, I don't think we're not going to get to that like 200 million mark. I don't think. But it could be a better situation because they're going to be in a better position to spread, you know, to absorb the losses from 2020. Team I talked to today said they were crossing their fingers for 190. That was kind of, that was the takeaway that I had from that conversation. That they didn't think it was going to happen. They do back flips if that happened essentially. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we spent the last six months expecting. 175. So if it got to 190, that would be, you know, that would be really good for, you know, if you're the New Orleans Saints or the Pittsburgh Steelers or some of these teams that are in,

you know, the Atlanta Falcons, these teams that are kind of really in bad shape when it comes to the cap, you know, even an extra $3 or $4 million makes a big deal of, you know, makes a big difference. So, you know, it's just an interesting situation of trying to figure out exactly where that money is going to go. And then you and I've talked about this before on the podcast. And George and I got into this a little bit too. It's not just the cap. The cap is not the most important thing. It's it makes sense because you can see it there. You can see and say, okay, it's $182 million and you add up all the salaries and you say, okay, this is how much money you have. What really matters in the NFL and look in life in general, right? It's cash is what matters. And who is,

who has cash and who is willing to spend their cash and who is going to, you know, be poor, you know, say that they're poor and that they don't want to spend this year for whatever reason. That is, that they don't want to actually allocate all of their cash. So when you're looking at deals in the next couple weeks when free agency officially opens and you kind of hear the funny money getting thrown around and the initial numbers that are reported, you know, try to use some like critical thinking and, okay, well, how much actual money in there? What is the actual cash allocations guaranteed money in the first year?

what is kind of the funny money that's getting spread out through later years that can either be renegotiated or eventually it'll become dead money. That's what's really important to watch now when you're trying to figure out who is an actual player and who's making real moves in 2021. So I think that it's funny because in most years, it's always, it's funny money because there's so much cap space available, right? I mean, you look back at last year. It seemed like every team in the league out.

Outside of like the chiefs and the saints, it didn't matter anyway, but outside of the chiefs and a couple of specific teams had at least $10 million in cap space. Now we're in a place where three quarters of the league is over the cap. So now the funny money becomes a little bit less important because you actually have to get under the cap. It's not, there are so many teams that are that far over that you're going to see some things that we don't see when it comes to cuts and all of that because so many teams have to get under the salary cap. So there's going to be a little less fudging. But like you said, said, there's going to be some. And what I think is going to be really interesting is how many teams step outside of their normal operating procedures in order to add players in creative ways. Brian Gukus came out today, our own Matt Schneiderman talked during his press conference. They asked if they were in a position to add a bigger free agent despite the cap crunch. And he pretty much said, if there's a guy there, then yes, it would be on the table. And they are a team that typically pay it, they pay as you go.

So their cap spending aligns with their cash spending. I think this year you could see some teams step outside of that and say, all right, can we do some proration on these deals? Can we add voidable years on deals? Are we willing to do some things we haven't done in the past because this is a unique circumstance? And they might be one of those teams. There are some teams that do that all the time. The Eagles spend more cash over their cap.

The Saints spend more cash over their cap. The Rams are the same way. But other teams aren't as willing to take those chances and make those risky sort of moves that put them in a kind of a tough situation for the future. Is that going to change now because teams are confident that this is only going to be a one year blip? And it's worth pushing it out to future years when the cap is going to explode again. And then the flip side of that are there going to be teams that are going to be ultra conservative because they're either they don't feel like they're going to be in a position to win in 2021. and you want to save your money and look ahead towards 2022, when maybe you can really reload when the cap really,

when the cap really skyrockets at the expectation that, let's say it does get to 208 or whatever next year, once you get the full impact of the TV deals and better revenue in 2021, or are their teams that are just going to be conservative and they just don't want to spend their cash. Because there are a number of teams that typically don't. And there is a floor. They have to spend up to a certain amount of their cash,

But there's a lot of teams that will kind of continually year after year be at the bottom level of actual cash spending. Because that's not done every year. That's done over a three to four year period. Yeah, it has to be an average. Yeah. It's an average of, I believe it's three seasons. You have to spend like up to 90% of the cap in actual cash. So let's say a team like Cincinnati, for example, right?

A team that notoriously does not spend a lot of money. Last year they spent a ton. This year, they could theoretically spend nothing and still get to the floor because of how much cash they spent last season. So that's one of the things to take into account. Based on the conversations that I had, I asked several different people if they had heard anything about teams that were going to be really cash conscious, even though they had a bunch of salary cap space. And I got noes.

It wasn't as if there were a couple teams that players side and the Asian side have red flags on saying they're not going to be spenders even though they have the space. So that's a good thing. I think the player side and the union side would be happy to hear that because that would be one concern on top of guys losing their. jobs and getting cut and everything else, that there would be teams that were a little bit more hesitant this year because they're looking at their checkbook and saying, we just don't have the cash on hand right now.

Because any team that says that is lying. So that's part of why. Yeah. And they're going to have even more money next year. And they might even have it by next week if these new TV deals get done. And these TV deals that we're talking about, it's like in the billions of dollars. It gets bonkers money. And, you know, talk a lot about what ratings are and what the future of television.

and streaming and all this stuff. But the fact is, is the NFL is still making a shit ton of money. And they're going to continue making a lot of money. And, you know, live football on television is the most lucrative property in all of entertainment. So they're going to- And that spread out evenly among the 32 teams.

There are no teams that make more of that money than another. So if your team isn't spending money, they're making a conscious choice not to spend money. NFL teams crying poor are probably not telling you the truth. So the one other thing that I think is, worth watching here is some of these guys on the market. I want to get to the player-specific situations in a second. But are we going to see more one-year deals?

Are there going to be players that are kind of in that middle range where they are not in a position to cash in, but they are attractive players that could say, you know, like Hassan Redick, for example. If you're Hassan Reddick and you don't get tagged, would it be worth taking a one-year, $10 million deal from the Cardinals or someone else to like Shaq Barrett did last year, show that it's not a fluke, I'm worth getting paid. Maybe I'll be worth more in 2021 when the cap rebounds a little bit. I'll be curious if we see more of those this year as guys buy their time and try to put

themselves in the best position to cash in. And that's what's going to be really interesting to find out because, you know, typically, you know, agents will push for longer term deals. Typically players want longer term deals. And I mean, we're not talking Patrick. years first two million guaranteed. Those are like the sweet spot deals. Yeah, exactly. Because you have to, you know, the things that guys are going to be weighing right now is, you know, your long-term production, you know, your one-year bet on yourself. Where are you at in your career? Can you, is it worth it to take a one-year deal somewhere that you think you're going to be able to win? Are you looking at, you know, do I want to, do I need a chance to go out and be a starter on a place where I can just rack up a lot of stats and hit the market is do I need, but do or do I need a little bit long, more long, financial security based on where you are in your life and your family? Would you rather take a three-year deal versus a one-year deal? I mean, there's just so many different considerations,

you know, and like I kind of mentioned, the stars are going to be fine. There's going to be a lot of young guys that are on, you know, these shorter contracts. I'm just so interested to see what's going to happen to these guys that should be cashing in right now that should be reaching their second deals. Their rookie contracts have expired. Maybe they were on franchise tags last year. you know, if you're a guy like Justin Simmons, do you want to, would you prefer to get tagged again one more time? Or would you go take a shorter deal or, you know, there's just so much that goes into all of these decisions. And this year is going to make it really weird and really kind of fun, I think. Like, you know, because it's just, it's not going to be predictable.

It's interesting because I think if you talk to people on, like the union side and even the agent side, they would say not enough people weaponize the short-term deals in the NFL and the franchise tag specifically. I mean, if Justin Simmons gets tagged twice, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of guaranteed money in a two-year stretch. That's more guaranteed money than he would get on a three-year extension in the first two years. So if he can do that and then get paid again, he's done what only a few guys in the league

have done. You know, Tremaine Johnson did that. you know, Kirk Cousins has famously done that. That's a way to make a lot of money. If you look at earnings over the last five years, Kirk Cousins has figured out the business of football in a way that very few guys have. And so it's, but that's one of those things. Is it worth trying to maximize every dollar you can?

Or is the peace of mind knowing you're going to be somewhere, hopefully for two years, which, you know, that's another conversation altogether. Kyle Van Nuke probably thought he was going to be Miami for more than a year too. but is it worth looking around every year? All of the factors that play into this. But I do think that on the monetization side, these one-year deals can be viewed as a good thing. And I wouldn't be surprised if the unions and the agents

are trying to sell their players on that idea. And much more so than they typically would. Yes. I think typically they sell you want security, you want to try to maximize your career and be able to stay someplace and have a legacy. in a city and all of those sorts of things. And now if it's about maximizing your own career and your own earnings, the shorter

deals might be the best way to do it. So let's talk about the players who might be most affected by this. You got into this a little bit. But my understanding, based on the conversations that I had had, is that the top guys are going to get paid. Maybe they take a 10% hit on what they would have in a typical year. But what I was told today is that your Joe Thunis are going to get paid essentially. So I'm assuming you've heard something similar where guys at the top of the market,

even if the landscape is a little bit darker, a little bit darker, they're going to be just fine. Yeah, that's my understanding too. And this always happens with the free agency. And you and Sheel talked about this a lot yesterday is that we, you know, we sit here on March 2nd recording this. And the free agent list like looks awesome. Like this market's going to be great. Look at all these guys. And then we're going to get to March 17th.

And the list isn't going to be quite as great because the best players don't. actually get to free agency because teams will either re-sign their guys at some time between now and when the market opens or they'll be using the franchise tag at sometime between now and the deadline is March 9th, which is, I guess, a week from today. We're recording this on Tuesday afternoon. Just about exactly a week from right now. So the market will look a little bit different. And, you know, so the top guys that are available will will certainly get paid. But I think, you know, there's also some of those top guys are going to just stay. You know, they're going to get paid or tagged by the teams that they've been at.

So, yeah, I think the top of the market will be okay. I mean, we might not see record setting deals across the board. You know, we might not see, you know, remember a couple years ago where it was like left tackle, right tackle, safety, linebackers. Like every position was setting some sort of new record during free agency just because that's what the market was. I don't know if we'll be seeing that that type of action across the board. We're not going to see it, Joanne, James.

type market setting deal at right tackle. I mean, can't believe that happened. Yes, I can't believe that happened. I absolutely can believe it because of how free agency and football works. That was the thing. I remember I went to that press conference when he, um, because they were introducing a bunch of guys and he's played like 18 snaps since then in Denver. It's pretty wild.

Apparently he'll be that. I guess he could be back next year. It's also a subtext. A bunch of these guys who opted out last year are now getting cut. which is a whole other layer to everything that happened in the pandemic season. But yes, I mean, I think the top guys are going to get paid. We're going to see some big deals. I think you could probably be a different podcast,

but make some arguments about the type of deals that get handed out in free agency and if that's the best way to build your team. And if we would be having a conversation about that next week. Yeah, I mean, the guys who we just were kind of talking about who set the market, who, you know, who signed those record breaking deals in March, how big of an impact did they actually end up? having on their teams, you know, Trey Flowers, Trent Brown, you know. I was having a conversation today with someone from a team. And it's just such a downer.

When you get excited about free agency and it's like, oh, man, what's going to happen in all this? And then someone who thinks about this in a much more measured, intelligent way, it's just like, that's not how it's going to go. It's not how we want to do it. It's not how we should spend money. It's like, oh, yeah. Like, you just don't want to pay a plus money for B minus players. And at the top of the market in free agency, that's typically how it is. The best moments in free agency in recent years have been the crazy trades that have happened because that's typically how smart teams are building their roster and they can take advantage of it right now. I mean, I'm just thinking the last couple years. It was the DeForest Buckner trade.

It was Odell Beckham during free agency getting traded. It was DeAndre Hopkins. I mean, that was the bombshell last year. So, you know, that's going to be kind of my wild card. thing to get excited about is like what, what's going to happen on the trade market over the next couple weeks and who might move? Because those are also probably going to be the smart teams that are getting involved there as opposed to spending cash for guys that have gotten to the free agents, the free agent market. I totally agree. And I think that that is why, that's how you should view the power and benefit of cap space, not so you can spend it on free agents, but so you can do whatever you want with it. So if you need to resize some of your guys that are coming up for

extensions. If you want to make a big time trade in a splash and fit someone in, you can't. I think that looking at $60 million in cap space and thinking, all right, how can I spend $60 million on the guys hitting the market is the wrong way to understand why cap space is important and useful? And the teams that typically have a lot of cap space and then spend a lot of money signing guys aren't necessarily the guys that are going to be winning. But if you trade for a guy and then sign him to the long term deal, I mean, I keep thinking about the DeForest Buckner one. That's when I keep coming back to because the Colts had a ton of cap space and how did they use it last year? They traded for DeForest Buckner and then signed a two 100 plus million dollar contract

and it was worth every penny. And I think it will continue to be worth every penny. So if you look at now, if we go take a step down from the top tier guys, I think the second tier is going to be fascinating. Yeah. Because that's where a lot of that murkiness and mystery comes in. because with those guys, and I think that Matthew Judon is an interesting example and one that's come up in a few of the conversations I've had, that's somebody that in a different market with the right amount of teams in could make $16 million a year. But let's say only three teams are in on him instead of four. That one extra team adds a layer. And that's how you get, all right, it goes from 10 to 15 over the course of an entire afternoon. And because people on the other side don't know how many of these teams might be in on guys,

there's a lot less certainty for what the range on players might be. So that's second tier. One, they're probably not going to get paid the same way that other guys would in a typical year. And two, there's really no sense of how much they're going to get paid. So that class of guys, I think, is definitely something to watch. Yeah. And I think a lot of those second tier guys tend to the last couple years have been agreeing to deals right away because you know what that market is and it's the second the tampering period opens.

It's, you know, player X agreeing with, you know, with the Cincinnati Bengals and player Y is agreeing with the Baltimore Ravens. And I don't know if we're going to have as much that as soon as the tampering period opens because I think that's when teams are really going to get a better sense of how many teams are in and what that market is going to look like. And the deals that are agreed to with like the first few hours of the tampering period, those are the ones that are going to raise some red flags in the league office. about if there was like actual tampering going on, even though there always is, but this year especially.

A couple other groups just to keep an eye on. Expensive vet, like one of the, these are kind of the things that we thought might be true coming in. And now that it was some time to explore it, a lot of them have turned out to be true or people think they're going to unfold in the way they thought. Expensive veterans might be in trouble. And I think we've already seen some of that. You know, Kyle Van Nuoy got cut a couple hours before we started recording this podcast.

He signed a four-year $50 million deal last year and is now back on the market. Nick Martin, the Texan Center, signed a deal in 2019. He was just released. The Saints are actively shopping Malcolm Brown, which would save them $5 million in cap space. And I think that that is the type of guy I would keep an eye on. The type of guy who's a rotational player, whether it's a third pass rusher, you know, sort of a role player-wide receiver, maybe a guy you put in the slot, you know, another guy in your defensive line rotation, those are luxuries that teams are just not going to be able to afford.

You cannot afford to really bolster areas of your roster with those sort of mid-tier contracts when you're also paying guys at the top of the market with a team like the Saints is. So those are, I think, the little bit of fat trimming that we're going to see a lot of here over the next couple weeks. And just one more like housekeeping or just like logistical note. if there is a guy like Kyle Van Nuoy who has been cut today, he can sign right now. He does not have to wait for the market to open. So that's why JJ Watt. He was released last month. He was already able to sign with the Cardinals.

That is done. They've allocated that cash. He has had his press conference. So that kind of adds an interesting layer because there are going to be new guys joining Shields list, which is why he is constantly updating it. Check the athletic. He's not only is he updating it. He's expanding it.

I think it's going to be like over 100 guys by next. He used the number 200 to me yesterday. He is a freaking machine. It is incredible. This is a Shiel appreciation podcast. It certainly is. But because that group is changing, you know, some of the really attractive guys at the top are going to get pulled off once they're franchise tagged.

But we're going to keep adding these new guys in here as there's, you know, more and more cap casualties are coming. But those guys can sign earlier and that might help teams plan. They might not know exactly what that cap number is going to be. But, you know, if there's a guy that you want, you're. don't have to get into a bidding war. Those guys and their agents can legally get a better sense of maybe what the linebacker market looks like or what the receiver market looks like. And go ahead and sign those deals now and not have to wait until officially getting to the free agent

market in a couple weeks. I think a lot of the deals that typically work out in free agency are those mid-tier deals. Guys, you're getting in the $7 to $10 million a year range, using that area to really beef up the connective tissue of your roster. And if those are the types of guys that are getting released now, can teams with CapSpace find value in the market even more than they would in a typical year? Because I do think the types of guys you'd want to be chasing in free agency are the types of guys that other teams might not be able to afford right now.

And again, this is something we thought might be the case when we were looking at this a month ago, But based on the way the things have unfolded and conversations and everything else, it does seem like it's trending in that direction. It's going to be an interesting couple days because, I mean, we're just, we're seeing name after name after name. And this wave of guys, these veteran guys that are getting released within the next week, one, their names, they're guys that you know. But I think they might be almost more attractive than some of the guys that are just going to be free agents hitting the market because their contracts have expired and they haven't been resigned by their previous teams. little things like you said they can already start having those conversations and doesn't play into into the cup pick formula i mean it's tiny little things that are little advantages to maybe chasing

after some of these guys and not chasing after some of the guys that are actually hitting true free agency and then i think you know the last thing to really talk about back half back of the roster guys it's going to be it's going to be a rough couple weeks or it's going to be a rough couple months those are sort of things where you know if you're somebody that's a swing tackle and then that's not even a back half the roster guy but again if you're a swing tackle and you're making $6 million a year, you're probably dispensable now. The backup quarterback market that we've seen over the last three or four years, those case Keenum type contracts that were handed out over the last couple seasons, I think those

are probably going to be harder to come by this year than they would in the typical season. So all of those things, just stuff to keep an eye on. It's going to be a really weird year in a lot of the ways that we anticipated it might. And there's not going to be a typical off season. It's going to be similar to last year where you know, you're not going to have your full team in the building together probably until July or late July, early August, whenever officially camp opens. So, you know, there might not have to be that quite rush of like, we need to fill our quarterback room right now. The timeline's going to be different. Guys should be able to take physicals at least this year, this time last year, all travel visits, all of that stuff was canceled.

So they weren't allowed to do that. there will be protocols in place for that to happen this year. So at least, you know, those deals won't be necessarily held up long term because of physicals and visits. But yeah, it's going to be just the timeline is going to be a little bit different. And it's going to be fun. Is there anything else you think that we should hit? Just kind of table setting for what the landscape financially might look like here over the

next couple months that we missed. No, I mean, and George and I got into a lot of the, a lot of those discussions about what the cap could look like and some of those implications. And we got into, you know, last week it was a lot of headlines when Damora Smith advised agents to collude with each other to just kind of set the market because, you know, I think there is a concern that some teams might try to say that they don't have a lot of money to try to depress salaries across the board. And now it's going to be up to the other side, the agents and the players to work together

a little bit to kind of find out exactly what the market is going to look like. And usually those guys are cutthroat with each other, the agents. You know, they're competing with each other to get the best deal for their clients. But it's going to benefit all the players if, you know, if salaries can rise a little bit. And, you know, the word collusion, you know, sets off alarms. There's nothing actually illegal about labor working with each other to, you know, find out what each other is, what everybody is making and what the market looks like. And I would, I would recommend that you do that with your, you know, your coworkers to, you know, raise the, raise the salaries of everybody involved. And I would recommend that you listen to Lindsay's conversation with George Atala, and that is coming to you right now.

And now we're joined by George Atala of the NFL Players Association. George has kind of his hands in everything that's going on with the union. There's a lot of interesting topics that have been going on right now as we're heading into free agency, everything that happened in 2020, the mini-CBA negotiations that are coming up, and then everything with the salary caps. So, George, thank you so much for joining us today. pleasure to be here and appreciate the opportunity to talk about those and many other issues, I hope. So let's kind of just get into the newsy stuff, what's happening where we sit here

the first week of March, 2021. So we're still waiting to find out exactly what the salary cap for the 2021 season is. Can you just kind of take us, give us the update? What do you guys know right now? What went into maybe the decision to raise the salary cap floor last week? And when do you guys expect to maybe know exactly what the number is going to be? We expect to know, working backwards, we expect to know what the number is going to be if and when the new broadcast deals are signed and announced. Those numbers will determine how much of an increase will bump up, you know, will be a bump for this year, but also will all will determine what the next couple of years are going to look like in terms of the cap for the future as well.

Working backwards, though, I think it's important to note that if it wasn't for the 2020 CBA, we'd be heading for a CBA expiration in a couple of weeks. And that to me is really fascinating from how structurally the players have been able to protect themselves from downside in a COVID season where management has told us that they've lost about for to $45 million per club in revenue. So I think going back to the 2020 CBA, as contentious and as slim a margin, that vote turned out to be, it was also the basis for how players in the union leadership was able to protect players from downside or more downside than other sports, put it that way, given the losses in the COVID year.

It really is wild to think back to that kind of last week of February in Indianapolis where it was kind of some frenzied negotiations. You guys flew the player reps or the executive board all into Indianapolis. I think you had them at hotels like out by the airport. Like it was this very frantic kind of negotiating session. You know, I was with a group of reporters hanging out in the lobby of one of the hotels while the owners were upstairs. It was a simpler time, it seems like, right? I just, I remember like all of a sudden, you know, just kind of reading these things and there were some, I don't remember if it was the Wall Street Journal or one of the, somebody reported that all of a sudden the owners were really freaking out about, you know, the coronavirus and what the financial implications were going to be of that. And it just kind of, you know, at that time, it hadn't really sunk in. But it is really crazy to think of how different this whole last year would have been from a football perspective if that deal had not gotten done. And it was close. I mean, you. You mentioned it.

It was 60 votes, I believe, was the margin by what it passed by the players. And there were a chunk of players who chose not to vote. But, you know, that was a really slim margin. But we could be living in a sliding doors universe where the players would be locked out. Easily. Right now. Yeah, easy. And, you know, again, there's no, there's no definitive way to look through a crystal ball and tell you what would have happened had the players voted against the CBA.

but there's no doubt that management and certain owners were looking at pulling their offer off the table in that window when the players were voting. And I think that's sort of a fascinating look at how quickly things can turn for the worse. And even before COVID, the union was concerned about an economic downturn in this year anyway. you know so there was a reason why looking to do an early deal benefited everybody involved why we stood behind that deal and you know obviously did our best to communicate the benefits of doing a deal early even if it didn't include everything that the players wanted no deal includes everything that everybody wants let's be frank but I think looking back it gave us the platform by which we were able to bargain a salary cap that's no less than 180,

all of the health and safety protocols that were put in this past year, which, let's be honest, costs money, daily testing costs money, and also looking forward protects players from unnecessary downside that we've seen in other sports. Other sports athletes did put money in escrow, did lose salary in the year that they were playing. That didn't happen in the NFL. And we're really proud of that.

We should be proud of that. We should stand behind it. I do want to circle back to one more thing that you said early, where you mentioned the TV deals affecting, potentially affecting this cap. In what way? So if those deals get signed and they're going to be worth billions of dollars, if those deals are finalized within the next week, could we see that the cap climb and have it not be as much of a dramatic?

decrease as we've been expecting. How exactly is that going to work? Yeah, that's a great question. The simplest way to put it is the future revenue growth is going to help offset the revenue losses from the 2020, 2020-21 season. Right. So we expect there to be an increase in revenue, not just from broadcast rights, but when hopefully our country resumes back to normal, we can have full stadiums again, that's going to impact the revenue figures as well. So as future revenue increases, it gives us a better sense for how we can more equitably offset the losses from the 2020, 2020, 2021 season. All that means is we expect the cap to increase at a similar, if not a greater rate,

as the deal that we saw previously. So is there a chance that we're, you know, we keep talking about this. you know, 182, 183 million. Is that, do you think that's about where we're going to see it? Or could it be higher than that? It all depends. And, you know, I would be a dishonest conveyor of communication if I told you where it was going to end up because I just don't know.

That's not to be coy. That's to say that, you know, obviously it's a good signal that the $5 million increase took place, you know, 10 days ago or so, right? It's a good signal and indicator of where we expect things to be for the upcoming NFL season. How much better? That's all dependent on the TV deals. And as you saw from the public skirmish over the report with Disney, not everybody's quite ready to make an announcement yet. Yeah, absolutely.

And I will say, you know, I think we all are expecting that it's not going to be $198 million where it was or $198.5 where it was last year. The headlines that came out of the annual NFLPA meeting with the agents last week, it was held virtually this year. Usually that would be in Indianapolis. You guys would all be together in a big ballroom inside of the convention center. All the reporters would be standing outside waiting for a one word answer. It's a very weird scene that happens there in Indy every year. But the headlines that came out of that meeting were kind of reports that DeMora Smith, the executive director of the NFLPA, encouraged the agents to collude. I don't, if you were on that call, you can know if the exact word collusion was, collusion was used. Obviously that word, you know, triggers a lot of discussion, right?

But so can you take us inside of what that actually means? And when you're looking at a cap decrease, what is the advice to the agent community and what is going to be the effect of this drop, whether it's 15 million, 12 million, 10 million, wherever it exactly ends up. The context is really important. And what we've tried to stress with the agent community over the past several years is to ensure

that they both understand and take full advantage of the mechanisms within the CBA to make sure their players get their office. Right. So collusion got all of the headlines, but the deal that we have includes things like the cap carryover. So yes, of course, the salary cap for next year, and I'm doing air quotes, for those of you can't see me, thankfully. The salary cap for next year may end up at 185, but each team has a carryover amount that can bump them up well beyond that. We issued those a couple of weeks ago, I think, so you can get a picture for how your favorite team is going to

look at the salary cap next year. That's the person. There's a minimum cash spending requirement that's in the CBA. So teams actually have to spend cash money on players. And then the third thing is obviously collusion. Okay, what does that mean? And how does that practically work? We have encouraged players and agents over the last couple of years we're coming up on free agency to at least talk to each other

and share information about what the teams are telling them with respect to their financial situations. We can do that. That information we hope can lead to players using additional leverage to get a better offer or a fair offer in a market that, you know, we talked about it, might be depressed given where the cap is going to be. Well, something that Robert and I talk a lot about when we're having these conversations about finances and kind of the business of football is salary cap versus cash. And that, you know, the cap is flexible, right? I mean, teams find ways to work around the cap all the time if they want to. But really, if you want to know kind of who's spending and, you know, really get into like these contracts, it's really about cash spending.

And there's going to be teams, I think, this year that are really going to probably cry poor and say that, you know, and they did have massive losses. I mean, it is real that teams were losing money in 2020 because of the pandemic. and everything associated with it. But when you look at kind of the cash versus the cap debate, is there a problem, you think, with the way that teams are spending? And could that be exacerbated this year, given everything that's been going on? Yeah, I think there is a concern, but we do have mechanisms in the CBA to protect players from unnecessary downside.

And I mentioned some of those like the cap carryover and the mandatory cash spending. Again, encouraging players and agents to talk to each other during. in this period, share information that can help them get a fair deal is really important. But also, finally, those losses, our hope, are going to be offset by the increases in the broadcast deals and the resumption of our country going back to normal, right? I mean, we do want full stadiums in the fall. We do want bigger TV deals. And hopefully those things will help offset.

at the losses that we saw in 2020-slice 2021. So would you look at what this free agent market is going to look like? I've been very curious on how this particular situation in 2021 is going to impact different groups of players from the young guys, the middle class of the NFL. You know, we're kind of in that time of the year now where a lot of guys are actually getting, you know, they're getting cut. You know, they were big free agent signings one year ago, two, three years ago. now they're cap casualties basically.

So how do you see this situation impacting these various groups? And is there a particular group or cohort of players that could be particularly impacted by the unique 2021 circumstances? There might be a group of players who can be uniquely impacted. But even in this environment, I tend to bristle at the cap casualty definition. or description because if a club, the cap is an accounting mechanism. And if a club wants to keep a player, they're going to find a way to keep a player. It's simple as that. We've had plenty of teams, I think, the last three or four years, we've had seven, eight, nine, ten teams spend cash over cap by a decent chunk, not even by a little bit.

So I don't look at the cap as an excuse to release players. I look at the clubs using the cap as an excuse as opposed to it being a real thing. And I think, again, the agent community, the player community has to work together more than ever this season to make sure that they're getting straight information. They're getting the big picture. And they're looking at teams that have a ton of cap room when you combine the actual cap and the carryover amounts. and hopefully they can offset some of those losses. What was the reaction on that call last week, the agent's call when Dee kind of gave that advice or made that plea?

Do you think that's going to happen? What was the reaction from the people on that call? I think they were receptive to it. And again, it's not the first time they've heard him say that. And I think the other thing that was really important that he conveyed to the group and from being on the call they were receptive to was how we get to a place where contracts become the norm. He gave a really thoughtful example of the Moses Malone contract

and how everybody thought Moses' was the first guaranteed contract in the MBA, but really it was incentive-laden until Larry Bird came around and demanded that his contract not only have the same number as Moses, but be structured in a way that was fully guaranteed. And off we went in 1984 in the world of guaranteed contracts in the NBA. Obviously, Kirk Cousins did a fully guaranteed deal a couple of years ago. Our hope is that other agents and players look at the guaranteed contracts that exist in the NFL now and use those as a basis to negotiate their next deal.

And we know it's not easy. We know it's tough. We know we have a season where, yes, there's no denying. clubs lost money. But at the same time, there is a pot at the end of the rainbow and the NFL is resilient to economic losses over the long term. That's just the story of our business. So I've one more question about kind of the previous CBA before I want to get, I want to get into a lot of the stuff that we learned from from 2020. It was a 60 vote margin. And I remember writing this. I know other people wrote this at the time that when that vote happened, the sign was

okay, now there's going to be labor harmony now, but the union was hardly unified, right? I mean, players were kind of all over the board. Where do you think your membership stands now after the 2020 season, kind of a year after that last deal was signed? Well, I think my read and my experience from it was it was a tough deal that led the players to make tough decisions. And those are always going to cause, you know, in the Twitterverse that we're in, where everybody's got, you know, their fingers on a phone, those are always going to create

scenarios where players are going to express their opinions. That's what we've always wanted. I mean, it's not to, we don't shy away from that. We want players to get involved in the union process. We would have much preferred to have the open, honest conversation about the CBA and the process of the CBA than to have apathy. I mean, some people say, okay, there were 500 players that didn't vote at all, but, man, more than 2,000 players did vote.

And I look at that as a positive. And that's a higher marker, but as a percentage than, you know, our presidential elections in our country. So I try to look at the positive. And the other positive that I take away from it is that as soon as that deal was signed on March 15th, 2020, we had to immediately jump back into collective bargaining as a group of players to talk about similar issues and make amendments to the CV we just signed months prior. So that process to me shows how unified the guys were especially over the summer.

I remember, I think, you may have remembered, too, how players stepped out in there, we want to play campaign over the time. Right. So if there's any indication about the involvement of players in their union and players taking responsibility for the issues that impact them, I think we're in as good a place as we've ever been. And so that's something that really, you know, helps me sleep at night is that guys are aware of the issues and they care. So that leads really, I think that's a really good segue into talking about kind of what happened in 2020 from a union perspective, the things that you guys were able to negotiate, the things that you fought for. When you look back on the last year, what are your big takeaways of everything that happened during the pandemic season? What are your biggest lessons that you think will carry forward for you guys as a Players Association as you move into new negotiations? because that is ongoing right now, right?

We're constantly negotiating stuff. Yes, it is the unfortunate reality of both being part of a union, but also, you know, the environment that we're in. We still have to negotiate a bunch of stuff, including what the off-season is going to look like. I think specific to your question, the issues, I think, determine the issues that the players care about

determine how hard we go after certain things, right? So one of my biggest challenges in this role is to ensure that members of the media appreciate the issues that the players care about, right? We know the owners care about the bottom line. We know they care about money. We know players care more about money as well, but there are seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve,

list of issues that may not be as headline worthy that the players care about which we have to deal with health and safety issues. Owners don't have to care about those. Benefits. Owners don't care about those as much. What the offseason is going to look like. Owners don't care about those as much. That doesn't mean those are easy things to negotiate.

It just means that we have to weigh those things against the other. 10, 12, 15 issues that players care about. So it's, I mean, the short answer is it's complicated. And there's no day in this job for a player leadership where they're not trying to get as much as they can on all of those issues, while at the same time understanding that it's hard to be able to prioritize one over the other, because they all matter. Yeah, I think, you know, we always want to, and I'm guilty of this too, but we always want to judge whenever there's a deal done, whether it's a free agent signing or a trade or a collective bargaining agreement that is signed, you want to say, okay, who won, who lost. And there's a lot more nuance that needs to go into all these decisions. And I spent a lot of time last year, I guess during the 2019 season talking to players about, well, what do you care about? Like, what do you want in these negotiations? And it was really interesting to hear the opinions. of young guys who were on their first contracts, guys who had played 10 years under the previous

deal that they didn't get to negotiate in. A lot more guys than I was expecting talked about benefits and talked about health insurance and the health insurance that they would have after they were retired. So it just, there's just so much more, I think, that goes into it than just saying whatever the financial, the revenue split is as a sign of one side, one or lost. And we probably don't have time to get into all of those details. But it's interesting to me. But we should, Lindsay, we should because, again, everything, well, okay, let me not blanket it because I'm going to do what people do to us.

But the primary way that people judge collective bargaining agreements is on money. Well, the owners care about money. We care about 75, 85, 95, 95, other things. things that might impact a player's life just as much as the shares of revenue do. What does the tuition reimbursement mean for a player? That's something that almost never gets talked about, but a player can basically either complete his degree or go to a graduate school for free. That means something to players.

The mental health benefits, those mean something to play. those mean something to players. The health insurance, that means something to players. All of those things have to be weighted against what the headlines cover. And those are, I admit, those are really hard to break through. But the more that players can talk about them openly, the more the players can convey those issues directly to people like you and others, I think the better understanding that people have that you can't just do a win-loss column for something like a CBA. Just can't. So now we're moving into kind of more negotiations, mini-CBAs along the way.

I think it's one of the ways that D likes to refer to them as mini-CBAs. So what are the things that players care about now as you're going back to the table to talk about what the off-season is going to look like? What, you know, COVID protocols are going to look like? What are the top priorities that you guys have right now? I think looking at the offseason is a big priority and what that off season looks like, especially as we consider or the owners consider going to a 17th game. I think that's going to be huge.

There may be a need, you know, let's talk about lessons learned, which we hit on a little earlier. Do we really need to have anybody in a facility between, you know, April and June? why does that make any sense for anybody to have to worry about going into an NFL facility to go work out if you're a player? We successfully stayed away from the facilities this year out of necessity, and not only did it not seem to hurt the players or the game or the quality of play, actually you had some really outstanding performances by so many players, and so many players I talked to said that they were fresh. and fresher than they've ever been because they didn't have that off-season to worry about. So off-season is a huge priority. I think we already have a basis for how to play through a pandemic as safely as possible, given our protocols.

So I imagine we're going to want to keep as many of those protocols as possible, at least until we get back to quote-unquote normal. And I think those two things are really going to take precedent over at least the next few weeks in terms of what the union is going to look like for not just this season but beyond. And of course, there is the cap issue, how we look at protecting players from unnecessary downside when we know there's going to be a bumper on the back end in terms of revenue. So I'd say those three big issues are what our player leadership is going to consider. And that's right around the corner. I thought it was interesting last week, Bruce Ariens during one of his media sessions. He talked about the offseason.

And obviously coaches are going to be the ones who they want the offseason program more than everybody. They also don't have representation. They don't really have a voice in these discussions the way that the players and ownership does. So, but one of the things that he said was that he, he looked at it as it's a lot of veterans in NFLPA leadership that are pushing for a lack of off season because they don't want rookies to have this extra time and come and take their jobs, which, I mean, that's very coach speak, right? And I remember J.C. J.C. Treter, the NFLPA president, center from the Cleveland Browns earlier this spring saying that, um, coaching, asking coaches if they want less practice would be like asking Cookie Monster if he wants fewer cookies. obviously they're going to want more and more and more. Obviously, this is the guy who he just had a baby. He's going to get well-versed in the cookie monster, cookie monster universe.

But as the mom of a four-year-old, he was speaking my language when he said that. But it did raise an interesting point because, you know, what is your union membership? 2000 plus players, right? That's right. But you represent everybody from the incoming players who are going to be taken in this draft at the end of April through, you know, Tom, Brady, who is 43 years old, those guys all have different interests. So when you're going through these discussions, how do you weigh those different interests and what a 22-year-old rookie

undrafted guy is looking for versus, you know, a guy who's on his second or third contract? And obviously doesn't feel like he needs to be practicing, you know, out on the field for 10 hours a week in April. That's why our union is set up with players. as the deciding body. And our player reps, there are 32 voting player reps, but each team has four player reps who are, who have the tough job of making those tough decisions and weighing those issues for their locker rooms.

The staff's role really is to make sure we put in a strategy in place to execute on those issues and those priorities. So the decision about what the priorities are for our membership come from the membership and come from the board of player reps. I think a lot of people mistake the quote unquote union is like the staff, right? Like I'm the union. No, I'm not the union. The players are the union. D is not the union.

The players are the union. And that's, I think, the setup that we always rely on and why, in my opinion, we've been able to be so, successful over the years and addressing all of those issues because we really have to abide by the priorities that the membership dictates to us. Now, is it true that, you know, a team like Pittsburgh may have different priorities than a team like Tampa or, you know, a team like Seattle may come up with a different set of issues that matter to their locker room than a team like Cleveland? Yeah, of course. But when we get together like we will next week, when our board of player reps meets for three, four days virtually, we have to then talk out

what the priorities are. And then ultimately, if there is a disagreement, we vote. Majority rules, minorities heard. That's the way that we democratically run the process of our union. It's no different. I mean, it's interesting because for all the right reasons, I think the majority of the ink and the headlines are spilled whenever there's a big CBA. But the same process applies to all of the other issues that we deal with in the spaces between. And that's been the hallmark of our union. And it's really up to the players to make those decisions. And as for Bruce Ariens, I think J.C. was absolutely right.

You can't put a plate of cookies in front of cookie monster and think that he's going to want less cookies. I mean, I want more cookies. That's fair, right. I think we all want more cookies. All right, I've got two more questions for you before we get out of here. I've kept you a long time here. One more about kind of post-COVID. Well, if we're not post-COVID, we're still in COVID, but post-2020 season.

I know I've asked you a lot of questions. A lot of my peers have asked you guys and the league side questions about vaccines. What role do you think that you see the vaccines playing as we move forward? we're having all these discussions. And do you think it's possible that the league will ask you or will require players to be vaccinated in order to play in 2021? Still too early. And, you know, I'm not being coy, but I try to look at the way that we fit into

the larger prism of our country, right? I have a grandmother who got her second shot last week. My parents still haven't been vaccinated. they're in their late 60s, early 70s. Lindsay, I'm sure you have people in your family who are waiting in line to get the vaccine. And depending on what state people are in, members of the media are on the list to, or, you know, in line to get a shot, right? So professional athletes, professional NFL players are not there yet.

We have a little bit of a luxury in that our season is not going to start for several months. And if you think I'm deferring than I am because we're not in a place where they're even available for us to or should be available for NFL players, you know, without pre-existing conditions, of course, who would otherwise qualify to be eligible for it. So it's tough to be in a position to go on a policy issue where we're trying to be sensitive and delicate to what's happening in and around our country and our communities. Well, and I do think, though, there's, you know, and these conversations are going to happen in all the professional leagues,

especially the ones that are playing right now, the NBA, baseball, where there is, you know, attitudes around vaccines and concerns about vaccines, fears of vaccines, and the beliefs or the feelings about vaccines are different, no matter what community you come from. And, you know, there's historically been more of, more of an aversion to vaccines in African-American communities. So maybe what sort of education, what are you guys doing with your membership to talk to them,

knowing that your membership is probably more than 70% black? What those conversations are like and the discourse that you guys are having for them and their families around vaccination. Well, I think we can't run away from the history. I mean, I think that's the biggest thing, Lindsay, is that when you look at the history of how those communities have been used in the past, there are real disconnects with trust. There are issues with some of the stuff that was done, and that history is not pretty, but we can't overcome it if we don't address it. And so I think there's going to be a time and a

place when we address it. I think you've seen a shift in how the vaccine has been discussed publicly by credible people in the medical community, you know, black medical experts in particular who have come out and talked about the importance of vaccinations. And for our membership, that process is not going to be any different. I think, again, given the either the luxury, depending on how you look at it, either the luxury or the downside of time and where NFL players fit into the category of being vaccinated. Those conversations are yet to be had en masse, but I know we're going to get into them next week at rep meeting, and I think they should be addressed head-on.

Okay, so I swear this is going to be the last one. No, I'm yours. You're ready. Well, so last week, or I guess within the last two weeks, the NFL has put out multiple reports related to diversity hiring. I know this is something that has come up. basically in every time we have conversations with PA officials, also with league officials. It was the main topic of conversation at Roger Goodell's press conference back the week before the Super Bowl.

But in one of the reports, this was a report prepared by UC at University of Central Florida researchers, where they kind of looked at all of the hiring data across the NFL from coaches and front offices. They included in there a recommendation that players be formally included in the decision-making process. And I know, especially from your leadership, your executive board, there are a lot of men who are very passionate about this. What more can players do to have a say? Would you guys be in favor of having players officially part of the hiring process? And maybe what more can players do to have an active role in this issue that so many of them care a lot about? Well, let's create a little headline. I mean, Deshaun Watson was asked to be included in the process and he was excluded. and that's a large part in large part why he's in that situation in Houston.

So I do think the players would welcome it. I do think that the more open and transparent clubs are with respect to their hiring process, the better off the better off we will be. And look, I can say that from working at a mostly diverse institution of the NFLPA, where more than 50% of our staff, you know, are quote unquote minorities, that's what is successful these days. You need a diversity of thought. You need a diversity of representation, especially in our business, where 70% of our players are black. And a lot of the former players who go into position coaching spots are also, black, it's hard for me to envision a world where they get passed over or the standard for them

is set much higher than some of the other coaches who get opportunities. So I do think nepotism is an issue, lack of transparency is an issue, process of hiring is an issue, right? Like some of these clubs, they'll spend a ton of money on these search firms and then won't even take the recommendation or the search firms because we're just sub-tweeting the Texans this entire conversation right right no but but it's not even I mean but Texas are not the only ones who are who are guilty of this several other clubs some kind of go through the same process oh we'll just hire a search firm to make it seem like you know we've we've got a diversity of of candidates and then we're going to end up where we wanted to be in the first place anyway that's a problem and

And we will, I know D has said this, I know J.C. has said this. And I know you heard from our executive committee members at the Super Bowl. They're passionate about this. They want to get involved. And they will be putting forth a recommendation for how to change things here in the near future. Yeah. So you have a time. Dee keeps teasing us with that. So, or saying that it's coming. Do you have kind of a timeline on that? It's a matter of timing. I don't know when. But we also don't want to drop it, you know, just. You don't drop the first week of free agency. Yeah. Like what that doesn't really do anything. And I'll the coaches are sort of there now. So I think we have to find the right moment where it will be

received in a way where they can actually, it can be actionable, right? Like, what's, there's, there's no, um, it can't be actionable if we air drop it in the middle of April before the draft, right? Like right. Yeah. So, um, we want to be thoughtful about how we do it. We want to make sure the executive committee and other player reps have input before we put it up. Yeah. Well, Is there anything else that union business, player business, discussion, stuff that we haven't covered. I think we've covered a lot of grounds here over the last half an hour, 40 minutes or so. Is there anything else you want to want to talk about before we let you go? No, I don't think so.

Just that I'm happy that my children were able to make a foot stomping cameo on here. Sorry, Chris. But, no, I appreciate it. I think this is a rare chance for us to talk about the issues. on a macro level. So I'm thankful to you that we had the chance to do this and hope it was good. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Next time your kids are welcome to come all the way in if they want to open the door. They need to go back to school. That is true. Let's all get our vaccines so our kids can go back to school. That is priority number one. So, well, George,

thank you so much for joining us. And we very much look forward to what's going to happen over the next couple weeks. It's going to be a wild next month, I think, in the NFL and within the players Association. So thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to George for stopping by to chat with Lindsay. And thank you to Lindsay, stop by to chat with me. We'll be back later this week. Nate and I are going to do something free agent related, not exactly sure what we're going to be doing on Friday. But the hope is we're also going to have a very special guest to do a

pretty cool segment. I don't want to jinx it. But my fingers are crossed that we're going to make it happen. So please come back out and check out the show on Friday. Again, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday is the offseason schedule where they were going on. So just pound that into your mind. Also, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. And subscribe to the athletic. We've talked so much about the work that Sheel is doing. Lindsay had a really fun piece today about the breakups that all of the first round quarterbacks have had over the last decade or so and why they're not on their current team or the team that drafted them. There is so much stuff going up on the athletic. I can't even,

I cannot overstate how much work is being done on the NFL right now. You do not want to miss out. Theathletic.com slash football show. I promise you will be worth it. We will see you guys on Friday with Nate and a special guest. Until then, thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to you guys later. This was the Athletic Football Show.