The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL playoff matchups, Chargers-Raiders tie almost happens, Colts season ends vs. Jaguars, Vic Fangio out & more

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

Following a chaotic ending to the 2021 NFL regular season, which almost appropriately ended in a tie between the Chargers and Raiders, Robert Mays and Nate Tice sift through the mess and discuss the most intriguing playoff matchups, from the 49ers & Cowboys renewing an old rivalry to the Bills facing the Patriots & more. Plus, the Colts season ends in embarrassing fashion at the hands of the Jaguars, Vic Fangio is out in Denver and more breaking headlines following the final whistle of week 18. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me tonight is my good friend Nate Tice. Nate, how you doing, buddy? I think week 18 is a kinked up hose. After we've had weeks of like, we're just like, we're shaming the NFL. We're like saying, oh, what a doldrum of games, all this.

They just, it was a kinked up hose, just waiting to explode week 18. That was, who, it had everything. You do the Bill Hater, the Saturday Night Live thing. the stuff on, like, that week had everything. That game had everything. That game we just watched had everything. I mean, oh, my God. So much to dig into a little bit of a different format today.

Obviously, not as many games mattered. So we're just going to kind of go through. We're going to go through the games that did matter. We're going to talk about the Colts game, obviously. We're going to talk about the Niners Rams game and what that means. We're going to dig into the playoff seatings, kind of sort of initial impressions that we have of those, some of the news that happened today. but we're going to start with the game that just finished.

I mean, it finished like 10 minutes ago. I'm still not cooled down. I'm still a little bit out of stories after watching that. I was watching it upstairs in my living room. And then the feed was choppy. So I was watching it downstairs in the basement while the TV upstairs was going. I was like walking up and down the stairs, just pacing back and forth as all of these plays were happening. I mean, an absolutely insane game.

So let's get into all of it. Let's start with how it ends. do you think based on body language what we've heard from Derek Carr everything else if the Chargers had not taken a time out do you feel like the Raiders would have just run it into the line again ended the game and both these teams be going to the playoffs a part of me wants to say yes because just reading how it was going it really seemed like that the Raiders were just kind of going like hey you stopped us again like wink wink like hey oh looks like we have to try a eight yarder like kind of like really kind of trying to like say like oh we're trying we're trying

that's what it kind of really felt like this because as soon as they crossed midfield because Derek Carr made that great throw on third down I want to say. Oh incredible throw. Really good throw. And I was like, oh, okay. And then they also just went first down jamming to the line. Second down jam it into the line. It was like but really like it was happening. It really felt like it was happening. Yes. Yeah. It felt like they're trying to burn that clock. And it was just, it was, yeah, that's what I read it as. And then when they took the time out, they all of a sudden went with a motion, they had a shift on it.

And it was like, okay, that was it. They were just totally shifted how they went after them. But yeah, it really felt like they were like, oh, we're trying wink, wink, nudge, nudge the entire time. I don't want to read too much into it. We've been prepping for this as some of the end of game interviews have happened. And I know he said it changed their mindset when Michelle Tafoy asked him after the game. When if I don't, when Derrickara came to the sideline after they called the time out, it kind of felt like he was like, all right, let's go for it.

It seemed like he responded in a way and said something when he was walking off. So I don't want to play conspiracy theorists and there's so many different things. So many. So that is obviously going to be a huge talking point. It did feel like there was a potential timeline over those last 45 seconds or so where they would have let that clock run out based on the decisions they had been making up to that point with the runs. We won't know. We won't know until more comes out until more people are talking,

have been asked about it. Again, there will be press conferences, post-game interviews. We will learn more about that here over the next half hour or so. It's great. Let's talk about the game itself. So that throw that Carr makes to Zay Jones, I mean, that's a season-making throw. And he had a couple of those today.

The Chargers had some incredible moments. We'll get to them. But the Raiders outplayed them in this game. The Raiders were the better team tonight in a lot of different ways. Carr made enough throws. in those big moments. And I thought the Raiders up front outplayed the Chargers kind of on both sides of the ball, but especially when the Chargers had the ball.

I thought the defining aspect of this game was how the Raiders defensive line played. Yeah. And we can commend Justin Herbert for converting on all those fourth downs. And I'll just say Justin Herbert converting on all those fourth downs because it sure felt like that was the Chargers today was the Los Angeles, Justin Herberts and whatever you want to call them, because they had to get talented. those fourth downs because the guys were dropping the ball. They were making it.

The pass rush was getting home, especially against the right tackle who they just refused to provide chip help against. Like I just blew my mind that that just kept happening. And, uh, but also it was, I agree. It was Max Crosby and the rest of the D line. And then also the Raiders offensive line while at times they can't, they can in the run game, they're a little disappointing at times. You would think they'd just be a little bit better.

But Josh Jacobs was making them right on so many of those runs. He was great. Yeah, Chargers weren't getting any, you know, penetration or the linebackers are overrunning or underrunning. And it just really felt like there's always a gap there. And Josh Jacobs found it. So it was like, yeah, they really just played a good game. Like the Raiders really played a good game while Justin Herbert played a good game for

the Chargers. If, you know, you know what I mean? It's like whole Raiders team versus just Justin Herbert and a couple other plays from other guys. But it was like, yeah, they played a good game and they get a pass rush and that pass rush can take advantage of bad offense alliance. Like that's what they've done, been able to do this entire season. It's never tailed off.

And even in the run game, you know, there was the fourth and one that they went for with their own 18. They got absolutely stuff. Darius Phelon had some really nice moments. Not just him, though. Quentin Jefferson roasted Matt Fywer at one point, you know, for pressure almost to sack. I mean, every single one of those guys got it in Gakway on the first Chargers drive against Rayshon Slater. I mean, there were every single guy up front for the Raiders had a moment today. And some of the guys in the back end, you know, Casey Hayward had the pick.

I thought that Brandon Faison had some really nice moments in coverage. I mean, they were making it hard on the chargers. It was, they had to get by by the skin of their teeth to get that into overtime. So looking at it right now, in the fourth quarter and overtime, according to next gen stats, all those four downs that the Chargers converted, a one in 8,000 chance. 0.01% for them to get all of those. And guess what? Justin Herber is a 0.01% quarterback in some of those minds. That touchdown throw to Mike Williams is insane.

him drifting to his left and just letting that thing rip. I mean, a one in an 8,000 sort of throw. And he's a 1 in 8,000 sort of player. I wish he had more help tonight. I know. It's like the 1% of the 1% that's the throw that he makes. That's what exactly what that was.

I mean, he had the fourth and 21 touchdown throw that when you were just talking about. The throw right before it just up and over like, just like, just putting it right on the money. Mike and that commends also a commendable to the Raiders DBs for making it so tough on Mike Williams. They were playing their hands through. Yeah. The entire night.

The tough catches everywhere. There were not a lot of easy plays to be made on on this on the field for the Chargers, the entire game. But it's, it speaks to what Justin Herbert does that they get into third and 15 plus and it's almost like scarier to be on defense. Oh boy, we took the top off. Let's see how far this ball's gone. But some of those throws, I mean, the two point conversion was insane. Yeah. Like just being able to get through it.

He's getting tackled. I mean, that's just a stick concept because Joe Lombardi, like, they go for it on fourth down so much. And he just calls quick. He calls stick or spacing. Like, I would say three out of four times that he calls him. It's like, so it's like, I like what they're doing going for it on fourth down, but it's very up those calls because you're becoming very, very predictable on them. But they run the double, the mirrored stick and freaking Herbert gets all the way through it and just getting. tackle and hits ackler in the flat. It's like, oh, my God. Like, just he could do it all. And I mean,

just speaks to what performance he put on because he truly took on the whole team by himself. It felt like at times. Yeah. I mean, the right side of the Chargers offensive line has been an issue all year. It was an issue again today. And again, the Charger, the Raiders off defensive line, the Raiders defensive front controlled the game. This was, I think, really a reminder of who has carried the Raiders this year. I mean, Max Crosby was a consistent force over the second half of this game working against Storm Norton. He's been fantastic this year, led the NFL and pressures according to PFF coming into this game. He had another monster day. Hunter Renfro was incredible in some big moments again. And I think if you look at those guys

kind of lifting the Raiders in those moments, it's a reminder of what this Raider season has looked like. I mean, what they have overcome and just how many different things have affected them over the course of the year that they have no control over, right? I mean, whether it's John Gruden's is self-inflicted or not, his players didn't have control over it. These are things that happened to this team and happened to an interim head coach in Rich Pissaccia. Now this team is going to the playoffs. Yeah.

And they've had some good wins against some, you know, pretty good teams. It's not like they just got by playing backups and playing third stringers. They've competed every week. Like even some of their losses, like it's, they were in it. Like, it's not like this team has just been bent over like, you know, like folded over week after week. It's like, no, they're actually a performing, performing. Like Derek Carr has truly helped them out.

Like actually throwing their guys open. Like they have a whole bunch of Darren Waller coming back to number one, but almost those number two, number three types. And he's performing with them. The offensive line isn't perfect, but they compete. And then the defense, even for some of the inefficiencies, I would say that they have, every week they make it tough, as long as they don't play the chiefs. It's like every week they make it tough on the other offense.

Like they just have, they have their own identity and it's worked for them. But yeah, yeah, I mean, it speaks to the whole franchise, I mean, that they're able to kind of like keep churning out wins. They didn't full, they could easily folded the tent and no one would have blamed them whatsoever. Everybody's like, oh, let's move on to whoever they end up with the coach,

Harbaal looks like, but we'll talk about that later. But just any of that, like they just, nope, they just competed like they're a playoff team and now they are. Like that's props to them. Just another feather in the cap in what has been a legendary,

like truly legendary career for Rod Marinelli. The fact that this group is playing at this level. And again, guys having career years. It feels like he's been doing this for 30 years. And that group had been really disappointing, right? Like that was the area of this Raiders team that had underachieved the most over the last few seasons. And you look at what they are now compared to what they were a couple years ago where this was their biggest weakness after the Farrell pick didn't work out.

And then they go get in Gokwe. Max Crosby has this incredible breakout season in the midst of a pretty remote. markable bit of self-improvement and just on his part and just working on everything that he had to go through. It's impressive. It's impressive. And they kind of deserve this moment. Even though Justin Herbert had these flashes of brilliance. Again, I thought that for four quarters and changed tonight in what has been one of the wildest games I think I've ever seen in my entire life, the Raiders are probably the better team. They got some lucky breaks, right? You get the past interference penalty at the end of the half that is kind of a phantom call. Joey Bosa has the sack that easily could have been

recovered by the Chargers, but they scored a touchdown later on anyway. So the bounces of the ball absolutely could have gone the way. But Austin Echler makes that play early in the first half where the ball is tipped to him on third down. This stuff all comes out in the wash. I thought that the team scrambling more often today was the Chargers. And in the end, the Raiders ended up weighing. Yeah, I agree. Especially when the Raiders were on the ball, it felt like this one after another that something was popping. Hold it on for dear life. That's kind of what it felt like. Even those last couple drives. And overtime, I mean, obviously,

car makes that huge third down throw, but it felt like they were kind of grabbing on and holding on for dear life as Josh Jacobs was running out of the field. It's never good when you're noting the DB's, DB's tackling ability. Yes. Because that means they have to tackle over and over. It's been a thing all year for the Chargers, though, right?

I mean, just the Nassir Adderly. That's how you know their safety so well. In space on that long run. I mean, it's those last couple plays. I mean, again, the third down throw was obviously huge, but he had the first chunk play they had to Brian Edwards to start that drive. You start that with a 17-yard completion. There's a good chance you're going to be able to get into a field goal range on that play.

So credit goes to the Raiders. Again, I think that tough spot for the Raiders now facing a decade of Justin Herbert and Patrick Mahomes. And this is a reminder of that, that even in moments that should be yours, even in games that seem like they might be sewn up late when you're up by two touchdowns in the fourth quarter. Now you've got to deal with two of these monsters that will never ever go away. They will never ever go away. games a year. And that is a rough place to be. But guess what? Right now, that does not matter. The Raiders are going to the playoffs and they earned every single bit of it. Yeah. It's 17 games now. You're not squeaking in now. Well, we're actually going to talk about another team that might have squeaked in a little bit. But yeah, no, it's four games a year. But yeah, no games a year. And four games a year. And many 80s movie references I can get in here on this podcast. We'll see.

Do you want any sort of post-mortem here on the Chargers season and kind of what needs to happen from here? We touched on it a little bit after they lost to the Texans and just where their defense was at. I mean, it just feels like Abushi's a free agent, I believe. Belaga probably won't be back. That right side of the line needs to be handled, right? It's not as if they're immediately getting sick up a couple guys back there and we assume it's going to be fine. But you're looking at Lindley, Filer, Slater, all coming back. You need to handle their right side of the line.

And then on defense, they need to figure out what those role players are going to look like in the front seven. You know, with their first round pick with, you know, guys in free agency, I was joking a couple days ago. Sebastian Joseph Day, who did it first daily last year, he's a free agent. Like, guys like that, those are not going to be the sexiest additions that you can make. But those feel like the types of players, the chargers need. I mean, even at linebacker today, Kenneth Murray had a lot of moments today where he's running flailing towards somebody in space. You got the huge pass interference penalty.

They missed Say Jones on another play where he was running down the middle of the field early in the game. So it just feels like those types of cohesive additions on defense are going to be the biggest focus they have this off season. But again, I think the first season with Brandon Staley, the second season with Justin Herbert, like a true coming out party for him. It's hard to not be optimistic about what the next however many years of the franchise

are going to look like. We always want the upgrades to be. the A, the A listers, the stars, but going from a D to a B minus is still a big improvement. This team has stars. Yeah. This team has stars. What they don't have is the second tier guys. That's what I'm talking about the role playing.

Role playing types. Going from Ds to B minuses just at those types, like that, I'm just trying to say to Chargers fans. It might not be sexy what you do this offseason, but you have your guys. Like now you have to fill out the rest of the roster. You need speed at receiver, but that's fine. You can find role playing speed guys. And you can find front seven guys on the chief.

keep. Like, it's not like nose tackles and interior linebackers. Like, you have to, you can find them. And that's, that's exciting because you have number 10 at quarterback for forever because he's always going to keep you in every single game. And it's like, okay, now we just got find role players as opposed to, man, how do we find a pass rusher? How do we find a game changing safety? Like, oh, man, how do we find a possessionary? It's like, no, you're finding the auxiliary guys, the complimentary pieces. And that's, that's a good place to be. And that's kind of what we thought this spring. When we kind of were talking about, we're talking about. each AFC West team. We kind of really come full circle. We're like, we know Justin Herbert's exciting. They got some fun pieces on defense, but they need this and this. And yep, exactly the same answer. And the quarterback is even better than we imagine he would have been. Yes.

Like, I mean, he's even better than that. And now if you're starting with that, it's not a bad place to be to say we need some role players here because that's exactly what it feels like they need. All right. Let's get to another game that was hugely important today and late in the afternoon slate. the Niners come back and win a monstrous game over the Rams, win their way into the NFC playoffs.

I mean, it just felt like this was such a window into where the Niners have these strange strengths, right? I mean, just their offense and the way they kind of chipped away at that in the second half, and we'll talk about him in a second, but what Debo Samuel did, I mean, just George Kittle is a blocker on some of those plays. I mean, the screen to Debo where you, check picked off the one guy and Kittle just wipes out the other DB. I mean, it's on that drive where they were just continues like chewing off yards in the run game, what he was doing on some of those perimeter runs.

And they did all of this without Trent Williams. And I just feel like it was a really impressive, we talk about resilience with the Raiders, kind of sign of we're not going away from this Niners team without the best player on their offense and a quarterback whose hand was falling off. and still somehow they managed to put this together in the second half. Yeah, the, like, how they just using Debo Samuel was so cool. Like, it's confidence, like within their offense. Like, they're like, we know what we are.

Like, the fact that they were going to Jennings so many times, like, really spoke to, like, they had a plan. And it's like really cool to see a plan kind of play out, especially in the second half once I think they honed in on it. The plan was just throw away from Joan Ramsey's side. Like, that's kind of what they started going to. like we'll talk about on a minute, I'm sure. But also just in the run game, like,

they're using Depot Samuel on freaking counter run place. And just like straight up run, normal run place. And then they have E.I. Mitchell as the lead blocker. And just that be able to switch these guys and also get to all this stuff on first, second or third down. And that's pretty cool. Like, they run stuff on third and four that some teams only run on first and 10. Like they're getting to this different.

So you kind of, every defense, okay, we might have this awesome blitz package on third downs. Well, throw that out of the window because they might run freaking zone against us. They might run split zone with kittle slices in the cross and they have to hand it and they're handed off the Debo. And that's the thing. If you want to go man coverage, what that all does is if they go man coverage and all right, I'm putting my number one corner. I'm putting Jaylon Ramsey on Debo Samuel. I'm marking them number one the entire game. What if he's in the box now in the backfield? What do you do with your defensive structure? So guys just have to communicate constantly. That's what you could just see the strain they're putting on the ramps. The touchdown

to Jennings, the dig in the red zone. They run a speed motion right at the snap. And two Rams defenders are flying. They ran fast. I'll give them that credit. They were fast to the flat, but two of them went at the same time. And that's what it does. Even smart players, their brains pop. Just they, they're, it's instinct sometimes. That's why that's why you practice. So it becomes second nature. And sometimes you just get that one commis communication and even Jimmy G. You can hit the end breakers. Like that's the thing. It's like he is an NFL quarterback. He's going to find those and hit those. And yeah, the, I feel. like this is a team that just has confidence in their identity right now.

And this is just talking about their offense because their defense of front is playing like monsters right now. Yeah. I mean, the play you're talking about that Jennings touchdown, Debo went in like an orb motion behind the backfield and him sprinting to the flat, you had two guys pulled up there. There were other plays today. I mean, the little whip that Jennings had late on a big third down on that right side, Kittle was running off.

I mean, the space that Kittle can create is a tight end on plays like that. the gravity of those guys, those are the players where Jennings really showed up today. So having a role player kind of take advantage of those openings created by those star level players on this team is big. And so let's talk about their defense a little bit because I totally agree. I mean, watching Bosa in those moments and then DJ Jones had a big sack today. Huge. I mean, it's those guys, that group has really lifted them because they've had so much uncertainty

at corner at times this year. and their front has really dominated and stretches. Arms stride at a huge sack in the second half. Yeah. I mean, that group, it really does feel like I want to, we'll talk about the offense a little bit in a second, but if you're going to play this team in the playoffs, your fear is that they have elite players

and important positions on offense and that their front can take over a game. That is not the worst formula to bring into a playoff game. Especially in the playoffs. Yes. I mean, they're about to play Dallas, who has been very up and down, especially on offense at times this year, if they can just win with four consistently against that Dallas offensive line that has not been...

That's not a bad way to approach a playoff game. It's not a bad little recipe to be able to tap into. And seeing like the 40-Ns defense kind of like what's so nice when you can move guys around when, okay, your end player, like an arm's step can move across the D line. like they can find the fish. I think that's what a lot of D-Yin coaches like to call it. So they put them over the Rams Center. And they're just going like,

hey, your length doesn't matter. Like they found an advantage that they wanted. And Armstead was just abusing it just because he's just so much longer than the ramp center who's not a bad player, but he's limited. And that's the thing. It was just you just pound it.

They found the matchup and they're just like, okay, there it is. Hit it. Hit it. Hit it 15 times in a row. And it's going to pop. And that's what's scary actually in that Cowboys matchup.

I know we're going to talk about the matchups in a bit, but it was like with the Cowboys matchup is, I know who their fish is. It's the left guard. And now you have Armstead that's able to shift inside on that. It's like I'm sure it might be a long day for him and whether it's McGovern or Williams. So it's being able to have these guys, not just bosa being a absolute monster on the outside, but having the other guys that can move inside and out. We have them at nose, having a three tech, have him, have him over to tackle, have him over the left guard. Wherever they want to find the matchups, they can just hit them over and over and make all the passing downs really. really hard on offenses because you can't get to your fun stuff because now you have to chip.

Now you have to provide inside help. Like you take away a tool from offenses to use and you saw it kind of creep up as this game went along. Really after Sean McVeigh came out to midfield to do the DX crotch shop and what else that he was doing. After that turning point, it seemed like the foreigners a switch got flipped. Do you have any reservations, any more reservations now about the Rams coming out of that game? feel like this is kind of who they are. That's kind of what it felt like to me. You're going to have those moments where Cup has that back-to-back sequence on that touchdown drive. I just loved what they were doing on that, by the way. I mean, on the third and sixth, when he hit the slot fade, I want to say

it was a bunch to that side. And the way that they had it constructed against man coverage, Ward was on him. So that's just by alignment, you have a safety on him in that moment, which is great. And then on the touchdown, they ran a little switch release. down there where Higby was the number three but went to the flat number three went to the flat. Yep. And then Cup was the furthest outside receiver, but then released inside and then back to the corner, inside step, which was beautiful.

I mean, it was just the ways that they put him in those situations are incredible. And then you have that aspect to your passing game. And then you have Matthew Stafford throwing one, two, three balls a game that absolutely terrify you. It's like the no, no, no, no plays with him. are a little bit too frequent right now. So that's kind of what it is. I mean, you have that combination of stuff with this offense,

and it just feels like this is who they are. Like, this is who they're going to be. You just have to hope the ratio is in your favor when you get to a playoff game here. When you play the Cardinals next week, a game I'm hoping to be out, by the way. It's a punchout. You're hoping. You're just hoping that, again, you're hoping the ratio looks like it did the last time they played the Cardinals. I'm hoping I am.

Oh, sweet. That's my plan. That's awesome. But that, but that's it. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, all right. One of us is getting knocked out. And that's every fight with the Rams. That's what's going to be.

All right. We're, we have stars and let's see what you can do against us. We're going to have some stupid plays that you just want to pull your hair out. But then we're going to like, that sequence is so freaking awesome at the end. I, like the Rams. It was just the Rams stars just exploded all at once, like all, all in a row. The Rams. Ramsey Interception, which was probably one of the top interceptions of the year.

What a crazy play. Because he got the tip too. Yes. He tipped to himself three times. It was like it was Randy Moss's first touchdown. There's some biking fans. I remember that. Brad Johnson under threw it against the box and he pulled it up to himself.

The same exact thing. But then they went cup jet sweep on first down, went for like 15 yards. The Cooper Cup third down. They run the little run play with Cooper Cup. They fold them in like a fullback. That was insane. And then you had the touchdown. And then the next time the 49ers got the ball was the Von Miller sack.

Yeah. It was just like, okay, I see your formula. I see your formula working right now. But then you see the blemishes when the 49ers on the flip side go, okay, we're just going to spam against your nickel that we know it can't cover or the guy, the fourth DB or the other DB that's in, that's not Ramsey in the slot. Because this is like my one way to kind of summarize like the Rams a little bit. It's like you see the stars.

They do some nice stuff on offense and defense. But then like on defense, they're having Ramsey. covered Debo Samuel one-on-one. That's why I brought it up. They were running one robber. Okay, why I want to bring this up, because it's just like a little lack of detail that kind of bugs me with this team is when the Patriots run, they're covered one double stuff. They have the two guys identify your number one target and they have two guys that double them. And then they put their number one corner on a different guy. Yes.

On the number two target. Okay, that's their way of getting out your top two options out of the game. The Rams run one robber. They have Ramsey covering Devo Samuel, but then they have a robber coming down that basically becomes like an inside bracket on them. So now you're kind of like, no, you use Ramsey to take him out and you put the double somewhere else. And that was when Dion was on Jennings on all of those plays. So there's picking on Dion in those moments in man coverage in high lever spots because they're wasting somebody.

And that's just like the little details that matter when some good teams exploit them. They like exploit them. And guess what that's what the playoffs are. Just pounding away on those matchups. And that is where you can hurt the Rams, right? Like their secondary depth is not very good across the board. This is not the group that it was last year. And I think that you saw that show up in a couple different spots today.

I want to talk a little bit more about Debo Samuel. And I want to talk about him as part of the State Farm, surprisingly great performance of the week presented by State Farm. It's not that Debo Samuel was surprisingly good today. We expect him to be good at this point. This is a season-long award. He has been surprisingly great all season because I just was not ready for him to be this sort of player. the play I want to talk about,

I mean, that play late in the game, where he's coming up the right sideline, and where Jimmy puts that ball, and the fact that he could stop, spin, redirect, and take that thing 20 more

than he was supposed to. Every single time, it touches the ball, he touches the ball right now, it feels like something dynamic is going to happen. It doesn't matter if he's a receiver, and that's a down-the-field play

that he still rips off 20 yards after the catch as part of that entire sequence. That stuff isn't supposed to happen. You're not supposed to take a vertical route 20 more yards after the ball is in your hands. Every time he touches the ball as a runner right now, just like you said, the ways that they can create numbers on the perimeter when they have him in that spot is amazing. And then off that play, we've seen how many times, dozens of times this season, when they're trying to get him on the perimeter from one of those split gun looks, they throw a touchdown.

today as a little bit of a wrinkle on it. I mean, it is hard to affect the game in more ways, runner, receiver, thrower, and gravitational pull than Debo Samuel affected the game today and has for most of the season for this team. Yeah, we talked about on the All-Pro show. It was he's not just some gadget guy. And actually, I think the, I think even Joe, Joe Bucker Aikman or whatever's commented on that. He's not just a gadget guy.

He actually does the real receiver stuff. And it's like, that's exactly right. Wait, way to go, Troy. But it's like they right before the half, they ran it like a hook and ladder. Yeah. I like to call it the millennial hook and ladder because it's on the outside. So they, they pitched it. And Debo gets to the edge.

Not only gets to the edge, he gets north. And I think it turned to like eight or nine yard gain. That place should have been one or two yards. But it's because he has so much explosive ability and balance. He's, we've talked about how he's just like, it's deceiving how much room that he can, like how much room grows when he has the ball, like from the other defenders. because it doesn't look like he's straining. But he does all the receiver stuff, all three levels.

They don't throw out deep much to them just because of their offense system. But just the underneath stuff, every time he catches a screen, every underneath throw, all those inbreakers, everything just can be an explosive play. And he's like actual, it's not like just like they, you know, highly gimmick and highly everything. He catches, everything is in the flow of the play. And that's a real receiver. It's just that he's one most incredible weapons in the league right now. It's, yeah, it has been a surprisingly great.

We've been excited about what he can do, but the fact that he can do this play and play out now and all these different ways, the fact that running legit running back plays for him now. Counter, just straight up shotgun counter to him. Why not? I know. It just devise as many different ways to get him the ball on his hands as you possibly can. And I think what you said. It's so simple sometimes, right? And that's what I love about this offense.

And it goes back to what you said a little bit earlier. They are totally in tune with what they are for better or for worse, right? Jimmy had some really nice moments today with the game on the line playing hurt. And I think that we should acknowledge that, right? Like sometimes we're a little bit hard on him because we expect so much of this offense because of what it can be in our minds. But today- We're expecting Matt Ryan.

Yeah, yes. And like this version of it, every once in a while when you have those head-scratching interceptions, which you're going to have, right? I mean, that's part of just what you get with him. It's part of doing business when Jimmy Gropos, your question. quarterback right now. But he made some huge throws late in the game. But they understand what he is. And I think at times that dictates who they are offensively. But their real sense for what they want to be and how to put their players in the best positions to succeed with the talent that they have makes them dangerous. And what really excites me, I would have hated to see them go out because of a sequence where McKivitz gets beat by Von Miller.

Like the fact that Trent Williams didn't play in this game and it almost did them in, that bums me out. Now I get to see this team at full strength with all of those stars against that Dallas team. And I want to see that. That is a get your popcorn sort of game. And I'm happy that we get that. I'm happy that Trent Williams, the game he missed this week is not going to be the reason that matters. I totally agree with that. You know, like an old video game fighting, fighting games.

They have like, da, da, da, da, da. No, like they have the guys matching up. That's what this feels like. Just all the stars like five on five in the fighter pose. Like that's exactly what this feels like. I know. We said it weeks and weeks ago that the best version of the playoffs, the M-C playoffs has a 49ers in it.

So I'm so glad that that came to fruition because we didn't get the chargers. So might as well get one of our teams in there that we can like enjoy what they do and how they win and just end up playing their best ball right now, which is fun. All right, guys. Remember, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. speaking of teams that we thought the best version of the playoffs would include them. The Colts today, that's about as embarrassing of a loss as you can endure.

This was not fluky. They got outplayed in this game for most of the game. I mean, they got beat in areas where they cannot get beat. There's a lot to dig into here. I mean, just your initial reactions about this game and just kind of how you were, were feeling as you were watching it unfold. I can't wait to watch my seventh game of Jaguars all 22. Like that's,

that was my first thought. But really, it was stunning to just see the Colts kind of get beat up. Like, so weird. Like, okay, one short,

that's the thing about short yardage. We have this misconception that it's like, oh, the best offenses get 100%. It's like, if you get 60 to 70% you're pretty happy in short yardage. But kind of like you get one of those. Okay.

Okay. that happens, but then just continuously every, like, high variance run or high, or high leverage run, just getting their asses kicked. Like, it was just like a bo bo bo, bo and then it was like a tackle. And like it wasn't like one of those where it's like, uh, that's taking, he probably got the first there. He fell forward, you know, Jonathan Taylor at 230 pounds. But it was, yeah, it was, it was, that was startling to watch.

And then of course, Trevor Lawrence was playing how his process is shown throughout this year. I mean, but they were letting him have time. And he was been able to move in the pocket. And when he wasn't able to, uh, like, find time in the pocket he was breaking contain. I don't know. Colts team just seemed very like held back. Like it felt like they were just playing,

playing don't, you know, screw up ball. I mean, they came out flat. I mean, it's an overused term, but like they came out extremely flat.

All the clowns in the sand screwed them up. Well, I think that probably has a little bit of a part in it, right? Where you have this team that's dead in the water that has become a laughing stock and that inevitably will seep into how you're going to approach this sort of game.

So let's take a step back here, okay? There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people reacting to this very strongly, okay? And there are plenty of strong reactions to be had. This is an embarrassing loss for the Colts. This is an unacceptable way to come out in a game where you are a two-touchdown favorite to dictate your playoff fate. You cannot come out like this.

That being said, okay? Everyone take a breath. Everyone take a deep breath and just step back and calm down for a second. That does not negate what the Colts were all season. Coming into this year, what I thought the Colts were going to be is a pretty good team that was not yet a contender. That was a step away and an offseason away. And this was about kind of seeing what this version of them looked like now that they had committed to it. I want to get to that in a second.

But I never thought this team was going to be a Super Bowl contender this season. No. One of the reasons midseason when it felt like they might have a chance was more about everyone else than it was about the Colts, okay? It was the fact that there hadn't been a real favorite that had emerged in the AFC or anywhere that you said, oh man, this team is decidedly better than the Colts. Because during that stretch, they were beating the shit out of teams. Like, this game today does not change the fact that they went on the road and smacked the

bills. It doesn't change the fact that they beat up the Patriots at home. They beat the Cardinals with half of their team out seemingly. Tip for tat with the bucks. Yes. Shot for shot with the bucks. This is a really good team. If you look at this three times in the last four years, they came into this game ninth in way to devoid, excuse me, seventh in a way to DVOA. It felt like this team was going to be a top 10 team by DVOA and just metrics that you can look at for the third time and four years. The one year they weren't going to was when Andrew Luck retired on the eve of the season. This is

a solid team. It's a very well coached team in my opinion. The body of work is very, very good. Just a bunch of Patriots game. Yeah. Frank Reich, Matt Iberflu, the staff, they have done a very good job. That being said, I

think that this game is a reminder of why we thought before the season that there were still steps to take. if you look at what this game is, they got beat up front in a way this team cannot get beat up front when you look at the way their resources are allocated.

Okay? Yes. They have the number one offensive line spending team in the league this season. Number one, Eric Fisher was getting whipped early in this game.

At a certain point, he came out. Matt Pryor was in the game at left tackle. Yeah. That is a bet that did not work for them ultimately. In the end, that bet they made on Eric Fisher

did not work out. He is now a free agent this offseason. Mark Lewinsky is a free agent this off season at right guard. Their spots for them to fill there. That unit that they were really leaning on, like this is who we are offensively, ultimately let them down in the biggest moments. If you look at the other side of the ball, they did not invest in their defensive line in the way that was necessary.

I know they spent early round picks on it. They picked Quitty Pay in the first round. Their second round pick, they knew he was not going to be ready. He was not a major contributor this year. they were second to last and pressure rate the season in the NFL. Yeah, it felt like it. The Falcons were dead last, the Colts were 31st, and you could feel that. DeForest Buckner is a star.

If you look at it, his double team rates are Aaron Donald like this year because no one else on that line takes up attention. No one else deserves respect. So this team that's supposed to be able to win up front, they did not have those areas by the end of this season. They let Teneke Autry walk in free agency. They let Justin walk in free agency. They did not replace those guys with a veteran presence they could rely on, and it ended up hurting them.

So those are bets that didn't work out. I still have a lot of faith in the process that has gone through there, in the coaching that has gone through there, in the core of players that they have, that they have. I always thought they were an offseason away from really being a contender. Here is the caveat to all of this. They've made their quarterback bet. There is no, man, maybe with another offseason, if we add a, another dynamic pass-catching option. If we try to go get a top-tier corner, those are the things that, yeah, that makes sense.

Like, that should be part of whatever this future plan looks like. They have committed, they committed real resources to the quarterback. For as much faith as you might have in what Frank Reich is a coach, and I have a lot of faith in that, his faith in Carson Wentz and the move they made to get him because of Frank Reich's belief in Carson Wentz is now going to become a potentially complicated situation. that even if we have faith in other aspects of what they've done and who they've been, I think that this is going to be a really naughty situation now because they have committed to this and what does their ceiling look like? It's the same conversation and the same whispers that we were hearing in the backs of our minds while watching Wentz over the last six weeks. It's just come faster than I thought it was going to.

Yes. It was you would think they found the formula with it, but then it's just like he can't help. but just who he is. It's just who he is. He's going to turn 30, I think. I think he's 29 at this point. This is what you are. You get to a certain point.

There's only so much that, you know, room for growth. But it's just even like, okay, some of the results aren't great aren't all the time. It's a lot of the processing stuff, just making so many bad plays worse. And it's a team that, I mean, just how they're built defensively and building through the line and the run game is that's not how you want that team to be. Like, this isn't a defense that's going to be. that's going to get the ball back right away. They're more of a bend. I mean, they change, they adapted a little bit.

They create turnovers, but for the most part, yes, you're right. They're not, it's not the big, well, the pressure rate and stuff. They're not going to like have this, okay, boom, three and out on third and 17 because they got a sack, all that stuff. It's more like, they're going to make the offense make a mistake at the right time, but it's all that calculated stuff. They feel like a calculated team and that starts at the top. That's just what they feel like.

And then you just throw this chaos ball that Wentz is. And like even the pick that he had on the sale route today, his whole. body, if you watch it, is telling him not to throw it. Like, he's about to throw the corner. And then he's just like, his body goes, don't like, it like shimmies. And, and one of the best coaches I've been around, Paul Chris, he taught, let your feet tell you when to check it down. Let your feet tell you when you're late. His feet are always a mess, though. Epidim, that's exactly, that's exactly what I was getting to is because his feet are always so off and out of rhythm. You can tell when it's going to be like a good winst game or a bad

one's game, like right away. Because as soon as those feet get super wide and he's doing the kind of double hitch stuff. It's like, oh, no, oh, no, like you're holding on your hat that it's some broken play because now everything's off time. That's why somebody balls just seem contested on stuff because it's the defenders have a time to break on it. Nothing feels kind of in rhythm. And that's scary. This isn't some 24-year-old retread that's like, oh, man, he was a backup before and we're giving him his first chance. This isn't some young guy that's just getting in his third season. It's, you know, he's had plenty of stars in the offense that he knows. And it's not like the Phillip River situation last year where it's like, oh, we'll see

what goes out. And after this one year, it's like, no, it's like you said, I mean, the bed's been made. And this is what they have to sleep in now. This is it. This is no, like, Darius Liner's on a second deal. Brayden Smith's on a second deal. This team, I think, is like 12th in offensive line spending for next year. They don't have a right guard or a left tackle.

That's what just three guys signed to contracts. With no first round pick. I think it was Michael Kiss today, tweeted out. It was a, uh, a Wenz joke. And he was saying, Carson Wentz playing the Jaguars. It's like, don't worry about it. don't worry about it, just check it down, just be calm, you're playing the Jaguar. It's Carson Wentz's brain, and it's like a donut drumming.

That's exactly what it feels like. He just cannot help himself in some of these moments. So this is my issue, is that I feel like the core of players they have, the core of talent they have, the way they play, the way this team has been assembled, the way this team is coached. I love all of it. Like, I just, I have real true faith in it. And I think they've done a really, really good job.

I also think that the bet they made on Carson Wentz, in part because of the, you the goodwill the Frank had built up because of the job he had done might have been a bad bet and it might do them in. Both of those things can be true at the same time. Like they've done a really good job building aspects of this roster and building who they are. And you've seen it in these moments this year. But they've also committed to a quarterback with real resources, with real financial and draft capital resources in a world where they could have done other things.

And now it's possibly boxed them in. You know, next year he's going to make, I think, 22 million. He's going to be the quarterback next year. People talking about how much money he's owed, whatever. He's going to be the quarterback next year. What happens if it doesn't work out next year? And if it doesn't work out next year and you've sunk your first round pick, your third round pick, you spent two years with this core committed to Carson Wentz, there is a chance that this does them in,

that this ultimately will spoil years they've had with what we think is a really promising core and a really, really good coach. And it might be because of this bet that they made on the quarterback, an understandable bet, right? I can understand why he wanted him. I can understand why they thought they could get more out of him. But watching that today, that's the problem. Their lack of aggressiveness in some areas with not having a secondary receiving option, deciding it was T.Y. Hill, with not going out and getting another pass rusher,

with, again, a really expensive offensive line that didn't work out. But it feels like there's still steps to be taken, but the cast, the dais, cast with the quarterback. And that is the frustrating part about this if you're a Colts fan. Yeah, they crossed the quarterback Rubicon. That's what they did. I mean, that it does. I mean, it is.

It really is. It's the last season was the last off season. I'm going to keep saying this whole off season too is that that was the year to get a quarterback. And then this was the bet they made. This was their, this was their answer on all the paths they could have taken. And that it is what it is.

Like, this is the chaos that they're going to live in for this next year. Because it's also all these other guys are getting a year older. You just don't know. Now it's just like all these young pieces. I mean, they had it's not just me and you that love all the close players. They have what seven pro bowlers? Like it's like this is a team that has guys like legit guys at some good spots. But this is the way they went. And there is a chance. Right. That this version that we love that would Neheme Heinz and Michael Pittman and you know, the core they have on defense this kind of whatever, this band that we loved seeing at 1,500 person, you know, theaters or ballrooms. there's a chance that they're never going to become like an arena rock band, right? Like sometimes teams can't take that step. That $20 ticket was great. Yeah. I loved them at the $20 price point.

But once you see them in a stadium, you're like, ooh. And we never expected them to be that this year. We didn't need them to sell out Radio City Music Hall this year. But next year, that was the hope. And when you watch a game like that today, it starts to cast out about that step happening. and whether or not they're going to have the ability to do that with this quarterback, with this makeup. All right.

Let's look at the playoffs and let's look at what these games look like. Titans obviously have a buy in the AFC. The Chiefs will now host the Steelers on Sunday night. How you feeling, buddy? Come on. Like, just come on. No one was cheering for the time more than me. It's just, God, even watching that game, I was trying to give it my due diligence and watch

a little bit of it. It's just like seeing all those little RPO quick outrouts and Big Ben throwing his hands up, blaming the receiver, blaming the ref for not calling another contested catch because he's throwing RPO's and I don't know. I guess I get to watch T.J. Watt and make a Fitzpatger. I was, that's what I was going to say. Their defense has definitely, since they've gotten healthier, their defense has gotten pretty good.

The fact that they needed to really squeak by in a game against Tyler Huntley and this show of a Ravens team that we've had to watch over the last six weeks is not all that encouraging. I was shocked when I looked up the numbers today. He had a, I want to say it was like a third and six. I want to just even call my name. He. He must not be named.

It was like a third and six and he threw it short of the six. And I was wondering, I was like, all right. I want to find out for real. Like, does he have the most completions this year short, that have failed? that have failed on third and fourth down that were completions. He is unfortunately only 27th of 30 quarterbacks in that area, 59. Only 59.4%. So only every six out of 10 of Ben Rathusberger's third or fourth down completions this year

have gone for a first down. The best quarterbacks in the league are at like 80, right? Yeah, I was going to say. Yeah. The only guy is worse than him this season have been Teddy Bridgewater, Davis Mills, and Jared Bough. Okay. Okay.

So that is what we're watching. Take solace in the T.J. Watt aspect of this. I will say, we just watched this game like two weeks ago. And the chiefs destroyed them. So I, congratulations, I guess, Steelers fans. You get to watch your team in the playoffs. I mean, good for you.

I'm not excited about it. Like, I'm not even going to try to paint it any other way. I'm not excited to watch the Steelers in the playoffs. I'm not either. I know. Of course, it's probably going to turn some. muckball. I'm sure.

I'm sure they're going to win now, but it's just 1713. Here it comes. No fireworks for us. No, that's exactly what's about to happen. And maybe, you know, we see the chiefs,

DB's tackle once or twice in this game. Maybe, maybe the playoffs start. So they start wearing the re-learning their fundamentals. But yeah, I know. I'm going to watch, of course,

you know, it's going to be one of those games. But I don't think it's going to be exactly the 35-0-0-blitzfest. Basically it started out a few weeks ago. But I, you know, it's just going to be. be a, I think, a messy type of game that the Steelers want.

All right. So the Bills will host the Patriots now on Saturday night. The Patriots lose today to the dolphins. I mean, it would have a very strange sort of game. Week 18, you want to kind of throw all of that stuff out. But it just feels like we've seen these two teams play. I mean, the last time they played the second game they played this year was incredible. So I'm very much looking forward to that game.

Raiders will now travel to Cincinnati on Saturday. Saturday afternoon. Weird game. I mean, before this, if I told you before the season that the Bengals will be hosting a playoff game against the Raiders, not sure what you would have said. Yeah. Hey. I'm excited to watch the Bengals.

I mean, I think the, we talked about the Raiders. I mean, it's an amazing story for them to get to this point is, is truly impressive. And this Bengals team has been really fun to watch all year. So those are the AFC playoffs. And watching the Bengals kind of find their formula a little bit. Really, it was this Raiders game. like they they like started pound the rock under center against them but it was like after that

game I think they really had a coming to Jesus moment about what their offense is going to be you don't need to slam your home against the wall like that correct correct exactly I'm the only thing I'm disappointed in I'm actually very excited for the bills Patriots game as well uh I did want to Josh Allen Justin Herbert Haas fight I was very very excited for that Brock Lesner versus test like that that was what I was looking for but yeah I it'll be still like a nice little matchup I'm excited for that one. I am hoping to get to the Bengals Raiders game on Saturday and then fly to LA for Rams Cardinals. That'd be cool. My tentative plan right now. Either way, for everyone, so that you guys know, we will have shows on Saturday night, Sunday night and Monday night after wild card games. So be ready for that because we are leaning wholeheartedly into this.

Curb Street, eat your heart out. We're the real, we're the real triple headers. We're covering it all. All right. NSC. Packers. obviously get to buy. The Bucks hosting the Eagles, a game that is possible because of the Rams loss. Strange game. I mean, we're going to go back and we're going to talk ad naus about all these games this week. We're going to go back and watch the Bucks Eagles game from earlier this year. No idea how much of that is applicable, right? The Eagles feel like a completely different team. Absolutely. So that means so much to go for there. And then the total open up at 51 for that game, by the way. I think it's going to be a, I think, I think we're going to see some points if the game script goes right for the Which I would love. I would absolutely love it. So it's, I want to, I want to,

bucks are going to slice them up. We are going to, a lot of stuff to dig into. I want to talk about the Eagles defense a bunch this week. It's something that we were going to talk about last week until some unforeseen things happened. So we're going to dig into all of these games. The game I'm most excited about, though, like the game that just on paper looks the prettiest as I look at this entire setup is the Cowboys hosting that. for a million different reasons. We love the stars in that game, but just the matchup in general. Just the nostalgia of it, those two teams playing against one another. This is a dream game for the NFL. Great uniform matchup.

Everything about this, I am very excited to watch. And then the Rams will play the Cardinals for the third time this year. So, I mean, it's cannot wait for the playoffs to start. There is a lot for us to dig into. Anything else about just the matchups,

about what this looks like, how it all fell, how it all fell that you want to dig into it all? The Cowboys Niners, yeah, you already nailed it. That one's going to be so exciting to watch, like just as a fan of these games. And it opened up at minus three, which is fair because it's like two, even teams basically going at it. So I, uh, minus three Cowboys, I should say. But it's, but honestly just some matching of styles. I know I like to say styles make fights, but it's, it's cool.

You're going to watching both of these offenses go out, but also against these defenses that, you know, it's seen the 40-9ers, only rush four and see if they can get home against the Cowboys offensive line that's been really up and down good overall but up and down at times depending on the matchup and then on the flip side just seeing this Cowboys defense so fast but sometimes they trade off aggression with soundness I think that's the nicest way I could put it against a 49ers offense that literally that's what they take advantage of that is what they are probing the entire game it's trying to find that matchup that they want so oh it's just going to be so cool just in the game script and all that and then Rams Cardinals is going to be, I'm just excited.

I can talk about all of these. I'm so excited. But all the Rams Cardinals, too, it's that the first time they played in L.A. It's like, it feels like a season ago. I know. I mean, that such different vibes for these teams now, like some mostly the same, but then just big, big, big difference is obvious one with the Rams and who they've acquired and Robert Woods being out, but just the Cardinals having to remake, you know, with one, one by one,

all those guys just dropping like flies and then just Kyle were having to be Kyler. And that's how they won that first game was a really friendly game. script and then Kyle were just making some huge third down plays where he scrambled. So that one I'm really curious to watch too, of course. But yeah, that one's going to be really fun. So if the favorites win in the AFC, we would have the Bengals going to Tennessee in the divisional round and the bills going to play the Chiefs, which is just, that's a hell of a weekend. A division round weekend is the best weekend of football every single year.

That is a hell of a weekend. If in the AFC or in the NFC, it would be the Rams going to Green Bay. and the Cowboys going to Tampa. Oh, yeah. Right? I mean, so many things could happen between now and then, but just the roadmap and what this looks like right now. There is a lot to get excited about.

Yeah, it's playoff football. What you want. I'm upset. I'm not upset. It's disappointing to me that we're not going to see Justin Herbert in the playoffs. Like the way the Colts play today, they don't deserve to be in the playoffs. The way they play over the last two weeks.

Like, they lose those two games to the Raiders, and the Jags, the Colts do not deserve to be in the playoffs. I am still bummed about the Chargers not getting in and not getting to watch Justin Herbert on this stage after the season he had. Other than that, I'm good. I'm good with what the playoff field looks like. I'm excited about what the playoff field looks like. I agree.

And Derek Carr is not a bad consolation prize. He's been playing great ball. Totally. Totally. You know, that's going to be fun, see him make some plays and see him X Crosby, get some, you know, some deserve praise for how he's played this year. So that's the thing. It wasn't at the Raiders expense.

I wanted the tie. I wanted the tie so I could watch both of them. And I'm sorry with Steelers fans. It's just your quarterback. I can't. That's really, I hate to take it out on it. But it's better than no offense,

but watching the Bears team last year make the playoffs. Oh, God. You kind of knew it. These were all spared of that. I think it's the Cowboys Niners is the Nickelodeon game. Is it seriously? How different can you get from the slime fest awfulness that that that game was last year, where Jimmy Graham is scoring a meaningless touchdown and the slime cannons are going off to a game between this Niners team and this Cowboys team. It's the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

Oh, I know. Who's the Nickelodeon exec that got that? It was like, yeah, I get the matchup for this. He got to circle it. Oh, that's great. All right. Let's start with the Broncos moving on from Vic Fangio today. Not surprising at all. It's a weird situation. I mean, my initial response to this is not make sense, figured it was coming, but also Vic Fangio did about as well as he probably could have in that job. Like some questionable in-game decision-making at times, you know, even the field goal that they kicked against the Chiefs on Saturday. They've been more aggressive this year than they had in the past.

But I think that overall, there was always going to be a weird cap on whatever the Vic Fangio era looked like, especially with the quarterback situation. When he came out yesterday and they asked him what the difference was between their team and the other teams in the FCS, their team as quarterbacks. And that's exactly right. But when they, the moment they brought in George Payton last off season to kind of assess what was going on here, it felt like the writing was probably on the wall independent of a miraculous season from the Vic Fan Gio staff. And that's kind of the point that we've reached. Like the chart, excuse me, the Broncos have to kind of sit back here and be like, all right, now what? Like what kind of coach and what kind of quarterback?

Like, what does this offseason look like for us? Because they have a decent core of young talent. If they can maybe retain Mike Munchek on that staff and have that be a part of this. They have things worth getting excited about. I thought that Vic Fangio did a fine job, but I can understand where the franchise, which is not made to playoffs in a while since they won the Super Bowl and is not used to this sort of stretch, can look at this and say, you know what, we just need to change. Like, even if Vic did an admirable job, we just need a change.

I get that being the conclusion here. No, I can't really have much more. It was they were seeing their, they were sealing with a quarterback like Teddy Bridgewater because that's the ultimate kind of like stopgap quarterback is Teddy. Like that is the opinion of him and Ryan Fitzpatrick. You know, that's their tool is they can go,

they can allow you evaluate everything else. And when you watch this team, it's their offense, they got nice weapons like they really do like Coral and Sullivan. Weapons they've committed to by the way. I mean, those guys are going to be around. Oh, even Tim Patrick. they gave a contract too.

And, but also the backs are nice. And the old lines got some nice pieces like cushionberry at center has really come along. They have the kid from Division III playing guard right now. Quinn Miners. Yep. Thank you. And I was like, sorry, it's Quinn something, but I didn't want to butcher it. But, you know, so they have some pieces there.

And especially on defense, too, they have some, I mean, Patrick Certan's a star already as a rookie corner. They have Simmons. They have some nice stuff. And then, but that's the thing is they don't have a quarterback. And whoever goes in there is going to know that and go, okay, well, what's our, if I'm interviewing for it and they're throwing me the job, be like, what's our plan? Like to who we're putting behind Sarah, we're not putting Drew Locke anymore. Are we?

He still only knows one to read. So that's what I, whoever goes in there, that's, that's what's going to be. And that's what it's, it's weird for Fangio. It's just like he's not that difference maker type of a coach that can like really eke out. Maybe that extra couple wins on the offense. He's a defensive genius. I think we all know that. But, you know, that's what we, that's what they've reached.

They kind of hit this wall. And it's like, well, this is the end of this path because they just don't have that difference to make her a quarterback that can really excel, you know, make this team go up a tier or two. That's just what it is. It just feels like everybody was just like, yeah, we're good for a reset. Like I think everybody was on board. Like Fangio was like, I'm going to go BD coordinator somewhere.

So what it always felt like. It just always felt like that coming into the season. It just felt like this was a lame duck year for Fangio and they were going to move on after the patent hire. And now it's one of those things where. You can sit there and say, if Vic Fangio did a decent job, we want someone else to oversee the quarterback plan, the next stage of this. And I think that's where they are. Every single, and I'm sure these calls have already happened.

I made a joke about it today. I'm sure they've already happened. Every single prospective head coach that is going to be walking into an interview over the next two weeks should be in Vic Fangio's text messages right now. I don't know if McFangio texts, but you should be reaching out to Vic Fangio right now. part of me was like I'm wondering how many people he's already talked to. The Harbaugh thing aside, it doesn't feel like Vic Fangio is one of those guys who has a ton of like all these friends in the league, right? Right. Like he's chatting with people all of the time.

It feels like he's game planning. Yes, it feels like he might be sected off enough where you gave him a call. It's like, all right, you want to come with us? Because I think everybody should be trying to do that. Because you look at some of these hires that have worked out, right? Like, Wade Phillips going with McVeigh. Like that could be this type of thing. thing. If you could sell somebody on a guy like him, I think that would be huge for some of these

prospective head coaches. And if you don't love your defensive coordinator, like, if you could give him a call, like he's going to be in demand and rightfully so here over the next month or so. Is that so funny? He just gets fired as a head coach and you become the prettiest girl at the dance. Which I think is great, though. For coordinators like this, I think it makes total sense. I think what you just said, and I'm not trying to like, maybe I am a little bit, but dogged a little bit is what you said. He's not the one texting, not the one, you know, networking, doing all that because he's a coach. And if you're a coach that becomes one in power, it's like, that is what you want as your number two.

It's like, hey, grind on your side of the ball. If I'm an offensive guy, now I can like, okay, if I have an offense coordinator, I'm grooming to maybe call plays. I'm calling plays myself. It's just what you said with the Sean McVeigh, Wade Phillips thing. Because how many times do you see Sean McVeigh sitting on the bench with golf? You can contract it out. You don't have to worry about it. You can give him a side of the ball.

Not only does it make you call on third down. Okay, sounds good. That's, that's your media. It makes you a more attractive candidate, and it allows you to be hyper-focused on whatever your side of the ball is going to look like. I think he could make a very, very attractive piece for any sort of package that a head coach is trying to bring staff-wise. Because that matters, right? When you walk into a head-coach interview, what is your staff going to look like? If you say my defensive coordinator is Vic Fangio, that's pretty good.

And there is a possibility, guess what, that John Harbaugh, or excuse me, that Jim Harbaugh would be able to say that for when, whatever jobs he's after. And if it's in Vegas, it's in Vegas. But if that pairing happens, then it's not a bad place to be. Hey, baby, I'm getting the band back together. That's what, I mean, that's how he could sell himself. Like, that's pretty nice. Speaking of potentially in-demand defensive coordinators,

Mike Zimmer has said according to the athletics own Chad graph that he has not heard about his job status. It feels like this is probably the end, right? It feels like the Vikings are probably going to move on. Mike Zimmer should be an in-demand defensive coordinator. I mean, same kind of deal. I think the Fangio is probably number one on the power rankings, number one on the big board, but I think that Zimmer will definitely have some looks.

Yep. The Vikings situation is a lot notier than the Charter or the Bronco situation, right? Broncos have a lot of cap space. They know they need a quarterback. Vikings do not have a lot of cap space. They have a lot of older, expensive players and a very expensive quarterback. I don't know what the next stage of the Vikings franchise should look like. Yeah, especially defensive.

guys have played in that one defense. Anthony Barr. Anthony Barr, Harrison Smith, you know, Kendricks, the front. I mean, there's just so many of these guys that are their core guys. It's like that's now you're getting to a chicken and egg thing. Is that because of the stuff that they're running or, you know, or if you get them out there, is now they could fall apart. They probably won't.

They're all pretty good players. But it's, I think that's exactly what we say about Fangio, copy and paste for what Zimmer. I mean, if you're a head coach candidate or even a guy that's like, man, right now. I need some fresh blood on defense. You know, we're kind of stagnant over there. We're kind of running this. Hey, let's get a guy that's going to juice us up on third down every week. We know that we're going to have an advantage on third down defense every single week.

And I'm not exaggerating when I say that. That's just statistically proven with the Vikings defenses under Zimmer. But that's such an advantage. That's such an ace in the hole to have, especially to say you're an offense. I mean, you're an offense that blows people all the water, but you can't stop anybody on defense. And you bring Zimmer in. It's like, hey, there we go. We're going to get some turnovers.

We're going to get a lot of big plays on third down and get him off the field. Like there's an answer there. But everything we say about Fangio should apply to Zimmer. Same exact thing. It's just that his tree is just so much different because he's, you can't see the picture where he could go as much I think with Fangio. You know, it's kind of funny how that works a little bit. Like you don't see what, I don't know what reunion would happen with Zimmer or what,

you know, possible connection could happen. Like it could be really interesting. Yeah, I mean, he's been there for a while, right? I mean, he's been a head coach for a while. There aren't that many direct connections just because he's had his own. shop for so long. So where he's going to be in demand and where he eventually goes, it'll be really interesting. And then whatever this, I guess, rebuild looks like for the Vikings.

I mean, if they keep Rick Spillman and then they say, well, let's bring him a new coach. What do they do with a quarterback? It's going to be a fascinating offseason for them. Yep. It seems like there are some rumblings that David Cully might be out after one year as the Texans head coach are at our Jeff Howe at the athletic says they plan for a while to meet this week to finalize their decision on him a couple weeks ago. It seemed like.

for a while to have their meeting. Sorry, I catch you off, but it's just the wording of that's amazing. A couple weeks ago, he was expected to be retained. So there's a lot to be considered here. Obviously, the Josh McDaniels connection with Nick Casario is going to be part of this. I don't know. David Cully did what as well as he could do. Like that team, that team, what they've looked like at times this year and even this week, Davis Mills looks pretty darn good for a rookie quarterback, especially compared. to the other rookie quarterbacks in this class at times, their defense vastly outperformed expectations. So much better than you think. I was very, very hesitant about the Lovie Smith hire, and their defense ended up being pretty good when you consider the talent that they had.

I mean, an extremely overachieving unit. So, I mean, there's nothing David Cully could have done. This is one of those things where you bring him in to fall on the sword, and you have one season where you have no talent, You have one of the worst rosters in the entire NFL. They perform admirably and you still decide that it might be time to move on. I mean, there's literally nothing else he could have done. Absolutely.

If you're putting him in that situation, yeah, there's no win with it. Now you just give him a golden parachute. Like that's, that's the reward of it all. And that's honestly, we got props to them because that's like every time we talked about Texans like, hey, they're doing some cool stuff like on offense and defense. So it was like, and their guys were playing tough every week. Like that, I don't know. It was actually pretty funny, though, that the stat that came up, they only went for, it was the second time all year. They went for a two point conversion.

It was a week 18. Like, up until this point, they've only gone for two once this entire season. That was pretty, just a crazy stat to hear, you know, in 2020 now. But it's, that's exactly it. He fell on the sword. It's the weirdest, one of the weirdest situations in the league. We just have kind of put it on the sideburner for a while, but we'll probably get right back into Texas talk as soon as soon as this month unfolds. we see kind of the dominoes start falling.

So it sounds like the lions are going to part ways with Anthony Lynn. Not a surprise. I mean, he was not given play calling duties. It was stripped of play calling duties earlier in the season. And I always felt like that was probably going to happen. Not a surprise there. I thought what they did offensively at times this season was really fun,

was really encouraging for what it might look like moving forward. I don't know who makes sense as a play caller for them. But whatever they've got bottled up here. Yeah. Whatever they've got bottled up here. offensively, just kind of the overall feeling and approach, I've enjoyed it. So if they can kind of tap into that with whoever they end up picking, that would be encouraging. Pete Carroll will meet with Seahawks owner or chairwoman Jody Allen this week, according to Michael

Sean Dugar, our Seahawks writer, says he doesn't have any doubts about his future. I mean, I don't know what they're going to end up doing. We've had a long, we've had plenty of conversations about the Seahawks future and what it might look like on this show. We had Meenon a couple weeks ago to discuss that. it feels like rolling with the status quo is not in their best interest, but who knows at this point. And then the other last kind of bit here, Matt Ruhl, I mean, some of the reports today about him needing a rock star offensive coordinator. Don't we all need a rock star offensive coordinator?

I don't know what to say about that. First team I ever heard say that, especially a guy that has an offensive background. That's what cracks me up even more. By the way, this is why. There are so many different reasons. This is why if I were hiring a head coach, it would be very, very hard to convince me not to hire an offensive-minded play calling head coach. Because guess what you don't need to worry about when you have that formula.

You don't need to worry about trying to find a rock star offensive coordinator that if you find one, he's gone in a year. The rock star, there are, you know how many rock star offensive coordinators are available? Very few because the rock star offensive coordinators are head coaches somewhere. That's what they are. They get plucked up pretty quickly. And it's like it happens for a reason. It's kind of like, hey, this guy's really smart.

Let's hire them. That's usually how it unfolds. And then what's so funny is they, you can think about Joe Brady, what you want, but it's so funny that that guy was supposed to be the rock star offensive coordinator. That was like, that was the big hire. That was the big hire. And then Phil Snow was kind of like, oh, wow, we're not really, you know, he's a college guy. And it's like how funny that changes.

So like one guys, we talk about falling on a sword. Like that right there. That's exactly what happened. It's like, oh, shoot. All right. That's how my first guy. You're out. That's happening to Joe Brady.

I know. That whole situation. How about we haven't talked about Joe Judge yet, but it was. Oh, we're about. It's funny that the Giants, their final two, was between Joe Judge and Matt Ruhle, which tells you all about their hiring process. By all counts. So Jay Gleiser came out and tweeted during the late game today.

Oh, it's his. Super Bowl, by the way. It was... He was excited. Sounds like the Giants are mulling over the decision whether or not to move on from Joe Judge. They don't want to because of the revolving door that has existed with their head coaching job. We talked about this with Mitch a couple weeks ago, that when they said they were going to retain him, this all felt like an optics move to say, don't worry about it. Everything is fine here.

We are past that point, though. Like, we are past that point. What has happened over the last couple weeks with that press? conference and then what happened today when you go for quarterbacks you cannot talk the way that he has talked you cannot present yourself as this sort of team you can't call other organizations a clown show and then come out and play the way that they have over the last month or so and run quarterback sneaks on third down when you were just rolling over and giving up you cannot present yourself as this beacon of toughness and organization and discipline and then look like they

have. I understand that moving on from him right now would make you a punchline as a franchise. Guess what? You already are one. You already are one. So what is the benefit of this? You are presenting some sort of delusional outward message to everyone else that it's really not that bad over here when we can all see how bad it is over here. Like as the rain just is pouring down and everyone's getting sopping wet, you can't tell us it's not raining. It doesn't matter how you want to do this. And it really does feel like the giants have reached that point.

Would it be devastating to move on from another coach if you were that organization? Absolutely. But at this point, why? Like, what are you talking yourself into? What is the reason to keep doing this? we're going to get into some coach conversations on Tuesday's show or Wednesday's show this week. It's about where we look for them and everything else. And I have a lot of things I've been thinking about and kind of mowing over about executives and coaches and all this other stuff.

But I think the biggest thing that I've come down on here as we look at some of these scenarios, bulky, Joe Judge, Ryan Pace, you don't have to do this. There is nothing that is forcing you to hold on to, you. to this version of a franchise, this version of who you wanted to be that has clearly slipped away. There is nothing. There's nothing stopping you from saying, we need to start over.

We need to figure this out. I think that moving on from a coach consistently all the time is bad for you. But if you're already moving on from the GM in New York, if you're already moving on from the coaches in Chicago and Jacksonville, what is the reason for keeping

half of the rotten foundation that has slowly been stripped away over the last three or four years. What is the possible rationale of wanting to bottle something that has been toxic for you and keep it there? I just don't understand it. I don't understand it in any of these scenarios. It's like, honestly, it's like, I don't know if it's gamblers or whatever, but it's like, honestly, I keep betting the wrong thing. But if I go 50, 50 here with the GM and I fire the coach, one of these has got to be correct. either me firing the GM or firing the coach and me keeping the GM.

But it's honestly, it's like, hey, what's just, you just blow it up? And honestly, like you said, like what, why are you keeping one of the rotted pieces? It's not like there was like this guy before. It was like, oh, man, they were winning 10 games every single year. They had two bad years with the new coach. But we know we'll get this one of the next guy. It's not like it's every one of these teams has gotten worse under this management. And it's not like, what other signs are there?

Their swings for the fences have all missed. Or if you're bulky, not even taking a swing, but saying everyone else took a swing. Like, that's what he likes to do. But it's like, you know, in the Giants, it's like they were all in this year. I mean, they were. And I mean, they couldn't even feel, I think they couldn't even feel a full roster because of sour cap limitations for this week. Like, honestly, what, like, why?

Like, what is the upside here? Because he traded for the first time, the first round to the bears who were now talking about his GM too. Like, it's just like, all these guys, it's just like they're betting the wrong sides. And it's like, you got to have some self-awareness and going like, okay, our process is not good. So what's, what's start anew? As opposed to just, oh, man, we're 80% there, 20% here. Like, just figure out, like, just talking yourselves into like going, like, well, if this happens, this happens, this happens.

Guess what? It's football. A lot of like random things happen. But when you're random, random things happen, it just keeps ending in bad things. You're not getting unlucky. It's just you're making shit decisions. Like, that's, that is all you have to know. You have to know the self-awareness of that.

But some people like that put their head. head in the sand just say, no, no, no, it's somebody else's fault. People are going to point to what happened with Jason Light and Tampa and they're going to say, well, what if we did this? If you want to go get Tom Brady, if you want to go get the greatest quarterback of all time and free agency on a reasonable deal, that's fine. But it just doesn't make any sense to me. So a couple more things to hit before we move on here.

It sounds like Kevin Colbert is going to be moving on after the draft as the GM of the Steelers. I mean, this is a team. And again, this is part of the conversation. I don't, when we're looking at teams to emulate, we're looking at where you should model your front office on or look for the types of people that maybe we should try to bottle this, it doesn't have to be Super Bowl winners. It has to be teams that consistently win 10, 12 games a year that are never losing.

The Steelers have been that under Kevin Colbert, right? They have been one of the most consistent franchises in the entire league. he has done a very, very good job of keeping that team competitive for a really long time. They have a couple in-house potential options there to possibly take over. I don't know what's going to end up happening after the draft. You know, we've seen this happen a couple different times. I think the Ravens are kind of the perfect example. And the Packers are another one, right?

Right? So you look at it and you just have these guys who are homegrown guys that have been there forever. I mean, Eric Dacosta, who is the Ravens GM now, was Ozzy Newsom's right-hand man for 20 years, right? And then eventually takes over. He knows the bones of what they wanted to be and what that process should look like. And it's seamless when it transitions. The same thing has happened with Brian Gouldcundt in Green Bay.

Obviously, it's been an eventful couple of years for him with everything that's gone on. But if you look at it, the way that process works has ultimately worked out for that team. And that's kind of when you're thinking about what we want to be as a team, what we want to be as an organization. These are the types of teams that I think you should look at. It doesn't have to be the teams that won a Super Bowl because winning a Super Bowl is random sometimes, right? Being the best team, you need bounces of the ball. There's nothing random about winning 10 games a year for 10 years. There is nothing random about that.

So what the Steelers have done under Colbert and what that succession plan ends up looking like is going to be really interesting. Yeah, that shocked me. And actually, I saw like, I think I saw Ian Rappaport's tweet like five hours after his tweeted. I was like, whoa, why am I not seeing this kind of pop up more? Because that's exactly it. Like we, we just knocked the giants and the Jags and even the bears for, you know, like saying like, oh, they want continuity and all this. But this is what real continuity looks like because they actually have results from the continuity. It's like, I know it's like you're saying, oh, yeah, well, it's process and results, but their process is good. How many different kind of flavors of the Steelers team have we seen

over the years, whether they leaned on defense, where they leaned on the run game, or they leaned on the passing game, even with Big Ben was chucking it around. round. Like that speaks the team building. Like they, they, it wasn't just like, we have one way and this is our one way to win the football games. They weren't Wisconsin for the last 20 years. Like they, they found different ways to attack and different ways to mold a team. And that starts at the top. I mean, that's why they're the Steelers. That's why they've had three head coaches and a hundred years, it feels like, like they pride that and they take like, they know how to build like the entire thing.

Maybe it's hard to be, he's a stiller, you know, as they say, through. and through and through. You know, the Ravens is more of a kind of like that business side. I guess maybe that was like a little difference. But it's like that's, but there's a reason that they're successful teams. There's a reason that as AFC battles were just year after year with those two teams is because their franchises, even when different flavors of what they are, they've adapted because it starts at the top. It's a, it's a coach or a GM or both that know what they want with their teams. And that changes every single year. Every team has to have a new identity every single year, whether we want to say it goes, you know, it's a whole franchise, it's a whole team

building thing, but that's what smart GMs do. And he has, he has been one. They've identified talent in the middle rounds. That's when you really know these guys are hitting because they found different types of players in the middle rounds and it's been really cool or the end the first round like T.J. Watt. That also helps too. These teams, when we look at them, when you look at these teams that are really good consistently every single year or just in it every single year. For the most part, the Rams are decidedly, I mean, their Rams haven't done it for a decade like some of these other teams have. The Rams are a decided outlier in the way that they think about their resources and process.

But a team like the Ravens, a team like the Packers, a team like the Steelers, it can feel boring at times. This draft develop patience, lack of urgency in some of the free agent decisions that they make. They're always around. They're always consistent. When you think about that connective tissue of the rosters and the ways they find those guys, you build that because you have extra third and fourth round picks coming out of your ears every single year.

I just, this is a lot. You don't chase pitches. This is a lot. Yes. They never do. They don't chase pitches. And that's, this is just a larger discussion that I do want to get into this week. I think we have to change the way we think about this stuff.

I think you have to change, like Ryan Pace is a perfect example. When you're looking at the argument for keeping Ryan Pace, I don't care that there are some fourth or fifth round picks over the last few years that have hit. I don't even care what the draft record looks. like for some of these guys. Because for the most part, that is always going to end up between like 1560 percent. Some version of that little thing. There are teams that are terrible at drafting.

That happens. For the most part, though, that stuff is going to come out in the wash. What is your process for finding players? What is your plan for four or five years to keep this consistent? What is the vision? Not how good are you at picking players in the fourth round? because for the most part, I think that's going to ping pong enough that that shouldn't be the most important thing.

Yeah. When you're always feeling like you're drafting for need once you get to that point, that's when you're like, oh, God, because you're always chasing. Like you're a hitter that's swinging outside the box and it's like some outside the strike zone. It's like, yeah, sometimes you connect like cool, but then you're also going to miss three of those pitches. And like, yeah, but like the process isn't good.

That's the only way to put it. And that's what like a Bears team especially, as you know, it always felt like they just chasing. They're like, oh, man, they need line help. Oh, man, they need, you know, this help. They need receiver help. Like, it just always feels like they're trying to get that next pick and then turn into quarterback help.

But maybe they hit on that one. But it's all that that's the same thing, same thing. Quarterback help is fine. That's what that's. Yes. Yes. But like with the Ravens every year, it's like, man, which position are they going to go for? I guess they go receiver.

I guess they go linebacker. Like, you know, they, it's kind of like you're trying to find all these B needs as opposed to A needs. Like all these, they need to draft a tackle here because, you know, but then you're starting on rookies and prime roles. And as opposed to like, oh, let's draft this guy in the second round, like in Orlando Brown. Let's draft this other guy or I think he's the third round actually even.

But it's like those guys don't need to be stars right away. It's like if they struggle, they can take time to develop. And that's why you see guys like, like, Judeon, like also sign these big contracts because they have a process. And they seems like just year after year. And like you said, we make jokes about it. And everyone's like, oh, Ozzie and the cop picks. Like there they are again.

But it's like, there's a reason. There's a reason that they win 10 games. There was a reason they were able to pivot to Lamar like that. It's because they had a process in place. And yeah, that's why they reap the rewards of it all. I think Dallas is another good example. If you're looking at teams over the last five years, what they've been able to do. But those are the types of things that you want to try to tap into.

All right. So we're going to have a lot more about some of the coaching news and everything else tomorrow. Sando's actually going to come on and recap all of the news that happens on Monday morning, firings where teams are going. We're going to have that come out in the middle of the day on Monday. So be on the lookout for that. It's going to be an extra episode. We'll still do the mailbag with Mitch heading into Tuesday.

Speaking of that, if you guys want to give us a call, leave us a voicemail. I'd really appreciate it. It's 872-22-22-7073. If you want to send us an email, athletic football show at gmail.com. A little bit more housekeeping, like you mentioned earlier. If you look at the schedule and what it's going to look like this week, we are going to have a Saturday night show after the first set of, wild card games. That's me and you, buddy. I hope you know that. You're going to be around on Saturday night. I'm going to be at one of those games on Saturday. So hopefully we're going to have some on site reactions from one of our team writers. And then the normal show that we would have on Sunday on Saturday. We're also going to have our Sunday show. And then hopefully I'm going to be at that game on Monday night. And we'll have a reaction on Tuesday morning. So every single day, we will have a reaction to the games in Wild Car weekend. So please pay attention to that.

Because we love you guys. You know what? Why not? We're getting close to the end. Let's just throw it all out there. We did 33 episodes in December. So if you guys also, just something to keep an eye on, we have so many local shows for the playoff teams. So many really good local shows.

We have a Chiefs podcast with Nate Taylor called 1% Better that I would highly recommend checking out. We have a Bills podcast. We have a Bengals podcast called Hear That Podcast, Growling. If you are a fan of these teams, you are well covered heading into the postseason. I will mention the names of even more of those here over the next week or so. We'll have some of those writers on from those playoff games. So please check out our local shows if you have never listened to those before. This is the time to get hooked as we get ready for the playoffs.

For now, really appreciate you guys listening. We will be back tomorrow with Sando on Monday in the middle of the day. And we'll be back on Tuesday with a mailbag with Mitchell Schwartz. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.