The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL teams out of the playoff race, can the Dolphins remain hot & questions for the Bills with Lindsay Jones + a Philadelphia Eagles team visit with Bo Wulf

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

Robert Mays and Lindsay Jones start the show by discussing which teams are out of the NFL playoff race and which franchise they believe has the most hope over the next several years. They also talk about the Dolphins’ postseason chances and the Bills’ important matchup with the Buccaneers. Finally, Bo Wulf joins the show to discuss how the Eagles have turned things around this season, Jalen Hurts’ future in Philly, their 2022 NFL Draft picks and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show is presented by State Farm, because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, December 9th. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Bo Wolf, one of our Eagles writers from The Athletic, is going to be joining us a little bit later for this week's team visit.

Before we do that, though, I'm very excited to welcome. My good friend, Lindsay Jones, Lindsay, how you doing? I'm great. How are you, Robert? I am doing great. We got a fun show. tap today. A lot of interesting stuff going on. It's very weird that there are week 14 buys. That's just something that I'm not ready for. It's thrown a wrench into the fantasy football season.

I planned the show in a terrible way. Not having thought about the fact that there were week 14 buys, we're talking about it a bunch of teams that are on buy. I'm going to blame it on the schedule is what I'm going to do. I'm just going to throw it all on whoever decided that we should have an 18th game and buys in December. Yeah, it's a super weird week. But there are some fun games this week and we're going to get into a couple of things that we're really excited about. So first, though, let's get depressing, right? Let's bring it down.

Well, here's the thing. All right. The show I did with Sando yesterday. We talked about how many teams are still in the hunt, how tight the league is. And we've spent so much time. And we have a whole segment about teams that are still in the playoff race in ways that we never would have expected. We spent so much time and energy talking about the teams that are somehow still in

Let's talk about the teams that aren't. Because at this time of year, I feel like we forget about the teams of the bottom of the standings. I am as guilty of that as anybody. But I wanted to revisit where some of those teams are. So if you look at, I think there are only seven teams in the NFL that have four or fewer wins. I know that's kind of a weird cutoff, but that's about where the 10% playoff chance cuts off too. So if you look at that group, four or fewer wins, less than a 10% chance to make the playoffs. Here are the teams that you're left with.

Lions, Jags, Texans, bears, jets, giants, Seahawks. I want to talk about those teams in reference to their future. I want to talk about which of those teams you would rather be over the next five years. And like you said, it's a depressing conversation, but I think it's a conversation that we should be having because those teams have been an afterthought for so long this year. Yeah, and I will say for the record this year, has been so weird that we are week 14 and nobody is technically eliminated. Like the Lions do have this super convoluted path to the playoffs. Obviously it involves winning all the rest of their

games, then getting all sorts of other chaos happening above them. So, you know, even the really bad teams aren't totally out of it at this point in the season, which is just wild. But our eyes tell us something different. We know that there are, well, there might not be a clear tier of teams at the very top. there are clearly a set of bottom teams. And that's what we're going to get into right now. So where do you want to start? Who should we get into first? So we're looking at those seven teams.

I want to see how you feel about this. Should we include the Seahawks? It almost doesn't feel like they fit. But there's really no reasonable way to kick them out of here without bending the rules. Well, no, I mean, I think they're at least worth a conversation because like some of these other teams, they're very much going to be at a crossroads at the end of. this season where it's really hard to envision this team returning in 2022 as we know it. It feels like somebody is going to be gone.

It feels it feels like it would be really surprising if we have Pete Carroll, John Schneider, and Russell Wilson and, you know, some of these other skill position players, but especially though the big three kind of back because, you know, I don't know how much further that that group can go where it's that coach, that GM, in that quarterback. So we'll see if ownership has some sort of say they have an untraditional ownership situation there a little bit where after Paul Allen died a couple years ago, his sister Jody Allen is there, but she's not as intimately involved in the day-to-day

runnings of that organization. So it's going to be really interesting. There's been some reporting and rumblings in the last day or so, you know, but I think it's basically all kind of rumors at this point of, you know, Russell Wilson, and would waive no trade clause again. And, you know, we're going to have months of this, basically from now until, I would say, certainly the middle of March. But if nothing happens in the middle of March, then it gets up to the trade, or it gets up to the draft.

Potentially it goes longer than that if there's still some issues going on there. So it's a team at a crossroads. So I think in that sense, they belong in this conversation. It just feels like they shouldn't because it's been a really, really, really long time since they've been, in essence, out of contention in the middle of December. So I guess we can start there. Is Seattle your answer? If you're looking at all these teams,

would you rather still be the Seahawks than some of these other teams that we generally consider those at the bottom of the league? Yeah, I mean, I guess so. You know, they probably have less of a complete rebuild. But I kind of want to know who's going to be in place there. Like if Russell Wilson is gone and you're starting over with a rookie quarterback that you might draft somewhere in the top 10

or, God forbid, Gino Smith and a rookie or whatever your quarterback situation, that completely changes the way you think about the long-term prospects of that organization. They do, unlike some of these other teams that we're going to be talking about, have a very recent and large history of success and of knowing what it takes to win, and they've got very clear identities of who they are on offense and defense for better or for worse sometimes. So, yeah, I mean, I guess it would be them. It's harder to make the case for some of these other teams that we're going to get into. I tend to agree with you.

And if you trade Russell Wilson this off season, it kind of solves this problem of trading away a potential top five pick in the Jamal Adams trade. You're still giving away a top five pick. but if you can somehow recoup a bunch of draft capital in a Russell Wilson deal, at least two first-round picks, maybe even more than that, you're kind of stocking up your war chest for what this rebuild is going to look like. But other than there aren't that many guys that you're like, oh, yeah, like this is the core if they end up trading Russell Wilson. Bobby Wagner is going to be 32 next year.

He's the only other real big money guy on this entire team. Dwayne Brown is 37 years old. don't believe he's under contract for next year. If Tyler Lockett and DK Metcalf, that's really it. You know, other than that, a couple scattered pieces here or there. But, I mean, if they trade Russell Wilson and the cap settles at like $220 million, they have like $67 million in cap space. I mean, it really is more of a reset than you might expect for a team that's been

as successful as Seattle has been over the last few years. Do you think Russell Wilson, of those three of Pete Carroll, Russell Wilson, John Schneider, Do you think Russell Wilson will be most likely to go? Or you think if one of those pieces has to be removed, there's a better case to be made that it might be time for a new head coach or a new general manager. I think you can make the argument on both sides. You can make the argument that a quarterback of Russell Wilson's caliber is rarer than whatever head coach you could be looking for. And I can understand that. But you can also, again, recoup a lot for Russell Wilson.

If you have talked yourself into this rebuild and you want to give some ammo to to, to, whoever you're entrusting with it, that would be the way to do it. So I could see it happening both ways. I could understand the argument on both ends of that. All right. Let's get in some of these teams that maybe there's fewer hypotheticals. We kind of know they're going to be in a rebuild mode. So I think here's where I want to start with this.

If we're looking at all these teams, who do you think has the best young core of talents of the six remaining teams that we're talking about here? This is not easy. I tried to do it and I struggle. really hard. I wrote in the top of our Google Doc, our shared Google Doc, I wrote, this is depressing because it's really rough. And it makes you realize why these teams are at the bottom of the league right now and why they've had a really hard time winning in a year where basically everybody is winning. So, God, is it the Jets? I don't. I don't know.

I think it's like, why would you say the Jets? I mean, I think they've just had more, they've had some more picks lately? I don't know. There's there really is not a right answer. I don't, I don't think it's the Jaguars. I don't think it's the Bears. I don't think it's the Giants. I don't, I don't know. I mean, what do you go? I think you could make an argument that the Giants have the most good players, right? If you're just looking at their roster overall, but part of the reason for that is that they have spent for this roster. They are against the cap next year. So I think the argument in favor of the Giants is that you get the Bears first round pick this season. So you potentially have two picks in the top five, top 10.

That's really nice. You also have a decent core of players on your roster. You have a Leonard Williams. You have a James Bradbury. They have some pieces on defense. If we think Cadarius Tony is interesting. But they have spent for this. I mean, they have really invested in whatever this team looks like right now.

And this team has four wins. So you've already handed out the Kenny Gallaudet contract. You're paying for a Dori Jackson. So I just don't know what the pivot point from there looks like outside of having more draft capital. So I do think they have the most talent on the roster among all of these teams, but I don't know how much of an advantage that gives them when you consider how they've acquired the talent. So outside of that, I think I'd probably say the Jags solely because of Trevor Lawrence. Right.

Well, and I think that the tricky thing about the Giants with this exercise specifically is we're talking about five years, right? said, who would you want to be for the next five years? The two first-round picks next year that will be high are, that means a lot. But Daniel Jones, I don't think we should make any assumptions that Daniel Jones would be your quarterback for two years, let alone five years. So that is just a major question mark. Some of these other teams that we're talking about specifically, like you just mentioned with the Jaguars, there's a million questions everywhere else on that team and their roster

is clearly not as good as the Giants right now. Let's do three years. Let's say the next three years. That's easier to forecast. And I think that that still keeps us in a similar ballpark. Yeah, I mean, I still think some of that is out there with the Giants, though, because I agree. You know, the long-term questions there.

Because the way that they're committed to Daniel Jones right now, they still have a fifth-year option, but they have yet to commit to. They'll have to make that decision in the spring whether or not they're going to pick up. It feels like to be hard to do. Pick up his fifth-year options. So, you know, so it'll be one more year of Daniel Jones. Do you draft this next year when you have those two very high first round picks, but it's a bad quarterback draft? Do you draft a quarterback there when you have kind of a lame duck former first round quarterback there?

And then the wild card with the Giants, I think, is that this could be a complete reset at the top of the organization. Totally. In terms of who is making that pick? Is Dave Gettleman still going to be there? It feels very unlikely that Dave Gettelman will get another swing, especially when you have two high first round draft picks. And there's nothing guaranteed about Joe Judges spot there as head coach. He's already started making the desperation moves of firing coordinators midseason. Hardly feels like his role is secure.

So just so many unknowns there. And then once you bring in a new coach and a due general manager, everything is on the table in terms of who could get cut, how the roster is reset, which quarterback is going to be there. So they might have the most pivot points of any of these teams, just in terms of how many directions they're going to be able to go depending on who's running the team there. I agree. And that uncertainty just makes it really, really hard to understand. I think if you look at it and you kind of admit or just concede that all of these teams are on at least some similar level in terms of talent.

Like if we can want Trevor Lawrence and think that's a really nice piece to build around, if you have faith in Justin Fields and you think that he's going to be a good quarterback, they're all in the same range. So I think from there you go to resources, right? And that's where I think the Jets have an argument. Yeah. The Jets have their pick at number four right now. The Seahawks pick at number five. They have a pick obviously at the top of the second round.

And quietly, they have another top 40 pick because they have the Panthers second round pick. Thank you, Sam Darnold trade. Right? So that's a lot of resources at the top of the draft, again, for the Jets. you add that to a young group that Mackay Beckton becomes back healthy. That's become an interesting caveat here over the last couple of years. Elijah Vera Tucker,

you know, you look at what Elijah Moore has been for them this year. I think that he's going to be an ascending player. You can start to make an argument for, all right, they're building an interesting group of young pieces on that team. But then you have this looming Zach Wilson question and how much are they even excited about him

at this point based on the way things have gone so far. There are no good answers. All the conclusions you're going to come to here are not exciting. Yeah, and they do have a couple. I mean, their defense has been atrocious. I mean, just a complete mess. There are a couple nice players there. I mean, Quinn and Williams is a guy that I think any team in the league would like to have. The future Jets will have Carl Lawson back. That was such a massive loss when he wasn't able to play at all this season. So there are a couple guys there and you're going to have all of those draft picks where, you know, we wrote about it in this week's power rankings, where it was kind of the best case scenario for every team moving forward.

And for the Jets, kind of talked about how their best case scenario is they're not going to have to use a high first-round pick on a quarterback next year. So for, or they shouldn't. I mean, they could, they could do the Cardinals, Josh Rosen thing, right? I doubt that they will. But look, there's no Especially in his class, yes. There is no Kyler Murray sitting there at the top of this draft. So they should have some really good options in terms of, you know, being able to acquire elite defensive talent. This is supposed to be a really strong defensive draft.

They should be able to, you know, Joe Douglas needs to earn his money and restock, restock that roster with young defensive talent, cheap guys that could make them a little bit more competitive in that division. So I think that's, you know, there are a couple of those players. When you ratted off those names, I mean, it's not terrible, those offensive guys, the offensive line, many of you mentioned. You know, Corey Davis just went on IR. So he's had a little bit of a tough year, but, you know, I still think there's things to like about him. Elijah Moore has been great. So their big question is when does Zach Wilson, like, become the dude?

And we've seen little glimpses of it here and there, not consistently enough. He's going to need to have a really big jump from year one to two. So I would maybe put them near the top of this dreadful, dreadful exercise because it's really hard when a team has lost for as long as the Jets have and have been kind of a laughing stock of the league to say you feel good and would want to be them. But when we're comparing them to some of the situations we have elsewhere, maybe it's not the worst of the worst. I agree. And I think that all of those resources, you can talk yourself into that. And you could potentially draft two defensive players in the top five. If the draft were to start today, you'd have the chance to do that.

And you just give that an injection of talent. And so you have some pieces on offense that you feel good about. You have some pieces on defense you feel good about. It's going to be a long road for them. I mean, they are in a really bad spot right now. But you'd hope the roster looks a lot better six months from now than it does right now. I would say the one other thing about the Jets is this is assuming that we're all feel good about Robert Sala, too. Yeah. And the guys at the top of this, that Sala is going to be

the guy who is going to be your head coach for at least three seasons. The Jets have churned through head coaches in recent seasons, thanks to Adam Gase, you know, that this brain trust, though, that it's Robert Sala and Joe Douglas, that there is going to be some sort of stability and the culture change that they were hoping would occur with bringing Sala in, that that is underway and there will be some sort of stability there for whatever this roster is going to look like in the future. the lions have the number one overall pick in a year where it's not that great to have the number one overall pick, which is always fun. So they're in such a strange spot.

I mean, they are completely bereft of talent. And they know that, right? Like, this is a full-scale rebuild. That's why they traded away Matthew Stafford for all that they did. And they understand that it's going to be a long road there. It's almost so blank there that it's kind of hard to put them in this conversation. I don't know how to necessarily feel about the Dan Campbell, Aaron Glenn era. Outside of, they play hard.

It seems like they're doing what they can with the talent that they have. But I feel like that's still a huge mystery. The Texans are kind of similar to me. It's like, I mean, I don't know who the building blocks and the Texans are going to be in what direction they're going to end up going. They're all on one year contract. Yes. And we literally, we don't know who the quarterback is going to be. We don't know who basically a starter at any position, maybe outside of like one or two linemen could be next year.

I mean, projecting their 2022, let alone their 2023 chart is really dicey because, like, you can't even fill out a two deep based on who's returning who's going to be under contract next season. And the Bears, again, handing out, handing over the sixth overall pick as it currently stands to the Giants. It's a deal you make every single time for a quarterback. I, as I sit here and just hate myself looking at it every single time I have to. But I understand why you do it. And I think that that part of it is fine.

But they have a ton of question marks. And what does that core of the roster look like? Is there going to be a new head coach there? Is there going to be a new general manager there? Even if you're excited about Justin Fields, I think all the other question marks associated with this team right now makes it really hard to put them in that conversation. I mean, I think they're closer to the bottom of this list than the top of it, which pains me to say. But I think that's where we're at. So I don't know the proper answer.

I think I'd say the Jets just by virtue of all of the resources and the fact that they're not. not tied into this and they really still are in a rebuilding process, but I don't feel good about that. Yeah. So, I mean, I think I'm with you, which is terrifying to kind of be on that Jets bandwagon. I do think we didn't talk enough about the Jags where you have, I think, the best quarterback in that bunch, which makes it really exciting. But there is zero institutional track record of doing this successfully. That's my problem. Doing a rebuild. And they probably have the worst coaching situation for the indefinite future there. Because at least some of these other teams that have had bad coaching situations this year,

we think it's going to be over. And when we're talking about the next three, we don't think Matt Nagy is going to be there next year. You know, there may be a change with the Giants, for example. But if the Jags weren't going to move on from Urban Meyer back in October when he spent his by week getting a lap dance or whatever it was, I think they're going to think, you know, if he wants to stay there and he's not taking a college job right now, you know, a second year of this and of whatever his staff has done for Trevor Lawrence this year, that makes me, that makes me really nervous. And the way they've handled a lot of stuff, the James Robinson situation has not been handled great.

So I wouldn't feel great about that. And I, when we're projecting three years into the future, I want better for Trevor Lawrence. All right. Let's get to a team that actually is still alive, and we're going to get to stay in alive. This is a segment we started last week just as a way to kind of dig through all of the teams that are still in the hunt for the playoffs in this tangled season that we're looking at right now. I want to talk about the Miami Dolphins who are 5 and 7 right now. Let's start off this segment just by talking about how they might make the playoffs. I think if you're building a case for Miami, here's the way it looks.

They have an 11% chance scoring to 538 right now. It would not be surprising, though, even as Miami is on by, which again is my fault. It would not be surprising if they got a lot of help this weekend from the teams that are above them, right? The Steelers play the Vikings. Absolutely could be a loss. The Browns play the Ravens. Absolutely could be a loss. The Raiders play the Chiefs.

Absolutely could be the loss. The Bengals play the Niners. Absolutely could be a loss. They could gain a lot of ground here in the standings without doing anything this week. So there is a pack. for them to potentially do this, even if they're only looking at an 11% chance, according to the math as it currently looks right now. Yeah, absolutely.

And the way that they've played in recent weeks, look, they haven't had to beat a lot of really good teams. But when you look at their schedule moving forward, when they come back from this week 14 by, it's not terrible. I mean, they've been, look, their last, this five-game winning streak that they're on, they've beaten the Texans, the Ravens. So that was that Thursday night game when Jacobi Brissac got hurt and then Tua came back in.

And then they beat the Jets, the Panthers, and the Giants. But it's not terrible moving forward. It's the Jets. It's the Saints who are a mess right now. The Titans who have already lost to the Texans and to the Jets this year. And then they end with the Patriots who they beat way back in week one, which is just kind of wild to think about where the Patriots are now. Yeah. Thinking back to what that week one game was, you know, Mac Jones's first start.

So, I mean, they very well could play themselves into. three more wins, four more wins. I would say three would be maybe the best case scenario to finish this. So that would make them, what, nine and eight? I don't know if nine and eight will get them into the playoffs, but it's going to have them in the position with something to play for in week 18 against the Patriots. So if you look at it, I mean, the numbers are very favorable.

We've talked about two as efficiency numbers and it's the way they played on offense over the last few weeks. On defense, over the last six weeks, the only team with a big, better EPA per play on defense in the NFL as the Patriots. And some of that is competition level, right? They've played some really bad offenses during that stretch. But this defense finally starting to look like the group that we thought it might look like heading into the season, the group that we've watched for most of the 2020

season. And then I think the most encouraging part about this is the way that their young defensive players have played because that was the problem, right? We're watching this team early in the year. it's like, where are all these young draft picks? Where are all these guys that were supposed to be ascending players are supposed to help them take this next step? Where are they?

And on defense, we've seen a couple of those guys. Yeah, it's Jalen Phillips, the first round pick, pass-risher, who has been phenomenal during this stretch. He's got eight and a half sacks now, which I guess is the Dolphins franchise record, but seven of those have come during this five-game winning streak. So there's a definite, like, correlation there between the amount of pressure that they're getting and specifically from Phillips that they've been

able to get. And then Jevon Holland has been really, really good. He's a second round pick safety who just, he pops up the screen every time he watch the Dolphins. He's just always around the ball. He's been just a really nice piece to add to what's a really good secondary. You know, I think his emergence has helped Xavier and Howard out. It's helped what they're, everything else that they're trying to do there.

But he's been really good also. So when you just think of like the production that they're getting. out of him during this five-game winning streak, seven past breakups, two interceptions, two force fumbles and two fumble recoveries along with three-quarterback hits. So he's a guy that is decent in coverage. They can trust him if they need him to cover a safety. He's okay on the back end, but they also use him as, you know, on blitzes. So they're getting production from a lot of places that maybe we weren't necessarily expecting, and that's helping them kind of make this, make this jump right now.

So let's ask why they wouldn't make the playoffs. I think this one's pretty easy. They're in a hole. They have a two-game hole against all the teams currently in the six and seven spots in the AFC. So you'd have to hope that this Bengals tough stretch bites them a little bit, Browns are the same deal, but there are a lot of teams ahead of them.

And teams that I think arguably, even if we think the Dolphins are playing better, are still playing better than Miami is. The Colts are one of those teams. The Colts are seven and six. So even if the Colts aren't currently in it, I still feel better about Indy than I do about the dolphins. And the same with the Chargers.

You know, the Chargers have been uneven, but if you look at what the Chargers can be offensively and what they can get out of their quarterback and some of those skill guys, I still would put that team ahead of them. So that's the problem. And Indy also is the tiebreaker over the Dolphins right now. So even if they've kind of come on and surged

over the last five, six weeks, they're still in a deep enough hole where it might not be enough. And I would say the one other, you know, why couldn't they make the playoffs? I mean, aside from the actual numbers when you just like look at the calendar and the way that the games lay out there and who everybody else is playing, I think we could expect some defensive regression when they start playing a little bit better teams. And offensive regression when they start playing better teams. Yeah. And I think, you know, Tua has been playing a lot better.

His efficiency numbers have been really good over the last four games. But if there's any quarterback in this kind of mix, this tier of teams that we're talking about, whether it's the Chargers, the Colts, the Steelers, the Bengals. If there's one quarterback who has that, oh, crap, four interception game in him, it's probably Tua, right? I mean, I think in that group of the quarterback that you might trust least when you really need to win a couple really big games in December. Another pertinent question for all of these teams that we want to ask is,

do they actually want to make the playoffs? Is making the playoffs good for this franchise at this time? How do you feel about that with the dolphins? Yes, I think this is the team that needs to make the playoffs. They've been on that cusp way too many times, including last season where they kind of made that run and, you know, were in wild card contention, then got blown out in week 17, didn't, you know, could have played their way in and didn't. So this is a team that really needs to get into postseason. I think it would be great for Brian Flores' job.

I mean, he was firmly on the hot seat two months ago. I think his job is safe now after this kind of turnaround that they've had. but he'd feel a lot better. We'd feel a lot better about the direction overall of this franchise if they could sneak in. I agree. And when you have playoff aspiration coming into the season, and that's the next step that you're supposed to take, that would be great.

It'd be great for everybody. Great for the morale in the building. I'm sure everyone would feel better if they made the playoffs. Also, they're giving away their first round pick to the Eagles. So it's not as if making the playoffs is going to be this huge detriment to what they're getting in the first round and where they're picking. So I absolutely think with them, it's a no brain or no question about it. They should want to make the postseason.

The last thing we like to ask about these teams, do you really not want to play this team right now? We hear that all the time. You don't want to play this team right now. With the dolphins, is that true? I mean, I don't think I want to play that defense right now. I mean, I think there's enough scary players on that defense between, like we talked about with the pressure rate that they're getting up front. with, I think Zavian Howard is a really difficult matchup on the back end. So I don't think I want to play that defense.

I'm still not terrified of that offense. You know, I think if you're one of the better, one of the better defenses in the league, you're not sitting there terrified at what the dolphins are doing. What Tua is able to do, I said, you know, he's been really efficient. He's been really safe with the ball during the Swin Street. But I think that could turn around and could turn around fairly quickly. So I'm not, I don't think I'm terrified. of them.

I agree. If I'm looking at, you know, they sneak as a wild card and I'm a division champ, I don't think I'm super, super worried when they're coming in, you know, if I'm the Ravens, although they lost to the Ravens. So maybe that's a bad example. But I'm trying to think of which division champion champ could I end up hosting them in a wild card game. I think that their defense does make them dangerous.

I feel like the way that they play and just how aggressive they tend to be, they can really muck up any game. And that would be something that was hanging in the back of my head if I were one of these teams in the AFC and one of the teams that would have to face them in the wild card round. But I tend to agree with you. I think that's exactly how I feel about them. All right. Let's get to this week's slate. Every week we go over our appointment viewing, the thing we cannot wait to watch on Sunday or Monday. What is your appointment viewing for week 14? Well, you spoiled it by slipping Monday in there. I didn't even realize that.

Yeah. So Monday night football this week, Rams at Cardinals. And I am going to be at that game. I am leaving this lovely office where I have been sitting most Sundays over the last month watching games. I am flying to Phoenix. I will be at that game. I am really excited to see both of these offenses and these defenses fly. I have seen the Rams once the season. I was at the game when they beat the Bucks, but that was way back in week three. And I'm sure this is a game that you and Nate are going to get deep into the X's and O's and the matchups on tomorrow's show.

And I can't wait to hear all about that. but I just think, you know, from a who has a lot at stake this game, I think there's so much of that for both of these teams. And that's why I'm really excited about this because I just think kind of narratively, there's a lot at play here. So when you look at the Rams, I mean, this is absolutely a must win game if you're the Los Angeles Rams. If you want to have any hope of winning this division, I still think that there's a good chance that even if they lose this game that they'll get one of those wild card spots. But they want to win that division. And you have to be the right. You have to beat the Cardinals if you want to have any chance of staying in this division.

And they need a good win so badly. It's back to that Bucks game in week three since they've beaten a team with a winning record. All of their wins since then have come against bad teams. They blow out the Jags 37 to 7, whatever it is last week, look great, get their offense back on track, their defense is rolling. That doesn't mean anything if you go in and you lose again to the Cardinals. And you can't play well against a good team. nobody is going to buy you as a Super Bowl contender, or let alone even a playoff threat, if you can't hang with another good team.

So I just think there's a ton at stake for the rounds. And then for the Cardinals, this is a team that they just haven't really been on that national stage a lot. And they did lose the last time that they played a primetime game. I know you were in Arizona recently. You wrote a really good story about the Cardinals defense. I'm writing about the Cardinals offense and Kyler Murray for Monday. And a lot of what I've been talking to guys about this week is it been about kind of what's at

stake on this big stage. And specifically for Kyler and his MVP case, as we talked about last week. So you know, you've spent a lot of time around the Cardinals recently. So what do you think is at stake for them right now? I think this is going to be the can we believe in them sort of stretch. Yeah. Right. And can we believe in them as a team? Can we believe in Kyle as an MVP candidate? Can we believe in the next step that their offense has taken? You know, early on during this partnership, I think there was this concern, this lingering concern that this was just too gimmicky. and that they weren't going to be able to have any sort of offensive identity. They weren't going to have stuff that they could lean on

as the basis of who they wanted to be on offense. And I think that they've kind of started to find that stuff. And I want to see them do it here down the stretch against a team like the Rams, against the best teams in the NFC when the playoffs start. So I cannot wait to watch this game. I think that this is another fun test for that Cardinals defense that I just spent so much time thinking about and writing about. I mean, they played the Rams so well.

the first time these two teams played. And that was when the Rams were rolling, let alone when the Rams started to hit some snags here. I think it was the week right after that Bucks game. And we were all real high on the Rams. They were like number one in our power rankings and all that stuff. I'm very excited to watch this one. My game is not as big in terms of teams at the top of the standings here.

I'm going with the Niners and the Bengals. Strange game. I just think these two teams kind of encapsulate what this season has been a little bit, right? They're both six or seven seeds in their respective conferences, but this season, it kind of feels like they're a little dangerous. I feel like both of these teams could knock off anybody right now when they're playing well. I would call them flawed yet intriguing, both the Niners and the Bengals. The Bengals have some offensive line injuries that were a huge problem for them last week,

but I feel like this plan that the Bengals had and the way they built this team of saying, we're going to have this young core of guys on offense, and that's who we're going to build around and we're going to figure everything else out later. Burrow, T. Higgins, Joe Mixon, Jemar Chase. It's worked. Like that group looks really good. Joe Burrow was excellent last week against the Chargers and a loss.

T. Higgins being like this 1A, 1B receiving option for them as Jamar Chase has fallen off a little bit, it's hard not to get excited about that group of pieces and what it could be for this team over the next couple years as they maybe invest a little bit more in some young offensive linemen and we get to whatever the next stage of this group is. So I'm really excited about that. And we know how I feel about the Niners.

I just think that even if you're worried about what their right side of the offensive line looks like, this is a team offensively when they have all their guys. And Debo Samuel still is not practicing. It looks like Elijah Mitchell is also dinged up. So that would be obviously a concern. But you saw what they could do last week with George Kittle being like the center piece of their offense. So I think this is a big one. You know, if the Bengals can win this game, it feels like they really get a stranglehold on one of those spots in the NFC or in the AFC playoffs.

And if the Niners lose this game, there are a bunch of teams that could potentially jump them and snag one of those spots away. So outside of the Rams Cardinals game, this is definitely one of the other ones that I'm keeping an eye on. Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting. That's going to be, you know, there's teams that there's so much at stake in which direction they're going. And the way the Niners lost last week was kind of demoralizing, I guess. I just was, you know, they were on such, they were just one of those teams that we were so excited about then to see them lose to the Seahawks when they really should be beating the Seahawks right now, given the state of the Seahawks, which we talked about earlier. It was just kind of, it was just

frustrating, I think, to see them make so many mistakes. But I don't know, I don't know who I'm going to pick. I don't know who I would pick in that game right now. I think I'd probably pick the Bengals, just because of the Niners injuries on offense. But I wouldn't necessarily feel great about it. Yeah. And that's what makes it really fun. So, yeah, I'm with you. That's going to be a good game.

And that's putting the Bengals in that late afternoon window. Yeah. Which we don't get to see them there a lot. They're kind of like the Cardinals where they're kind of under the radar nationally, where they're always playing. Like, even that Chargers game last week was in the early window. Like, that game should have been like a national game. I totally agree.

In the afternoon. But we're going to get to see them. More people will get to get eyeballs on them, which is, which is good for Cincinnati. I did not need Rams Jags in that 3 p.m. slot last week. It definitely did not need that. Yeah, I mean, that was just based on geography because it was in L.A. But, yeah, that did not need to be in the national. If that was the game that was on television for you in Chicago, then that's really rough.

I would know. I had all the games on. Come on now. I think the game we had locally was Ram Stealers. But, you know. All right. Let's get to our one big question heading into week 14. What do you got for me?

So I want to go back to the team that we talked a lot about last week. and that's the Washington football team. And I feel like this is the week where we are going to definitively be able to answer, is Washington good or not? Because the way that their schedule has worked, they haven't played the Cowboys yet. And yes, they're on this winning streak right now. We talked a lot about kind of are they still alive, how they're staying alive in the NFC playoffs. They go into Las Vegas.

They beat the Raiders last week. But now they have the first of two games against the Cowboys where this, to me, is going to be the game that really gives us a sense of who's legit. it in the NFC East and if Washington has has like an actual playoff case. So that's what I want to know. I mean, I think there's a lot of divisions that are kind of like this. You know, I think we've got Chiefs Raiders this week where, you know, we'll learn a little bit more about the hierarchy and some of these other divisions.

But I just think it's a huge spotlight on Washington this week. And we're going to learn a lot, learn a lot about who they are and if they're capable. And about Dallas. And about who Dallas is. I mean, I think that is how these two teams stack up and what that means, not only for the NFC East, but just for the NFC playoff picture in general. I think it's really interesting. I absolutely agree with you. My question is, how do the bills respond to what happened on Monday? I mean, that is a really tough loss to stomach when you consider the way that New England's

offense function, the way that it was structured. Losing the game like that has to be awful. I mean, it's cold and it's miserable, and you're playing this hugely important game, and this was supposed to be your season. This was supposed to be the year. were those guys who had tormented you for two straight decades were no longer on the same level as you were. And now it's your time. And to lose and then lose in the fashion that they did, it's heartbreak.

And now, all right, how do they bounce back? They play against arguably the best team in football. They're playing against a team that is kind of set up for the bills to be their best version of themselves, right? Like in that game, I thought Josh Allen's ability to throw the ball through the wind was incredible. but it's still difficult to complete passes in those conditions. Tracking the ball, catching the ball.

It's not surprising that they were not able to do much offensively when you think about what they do well and what they want to do. Now you're playing against a Bucks team that teams want to throw on them. That's really all you can do. So can we see a version of this Bill's offense that's a little bit more spread out that kind of gets them back into a groove like, all right, we can really still sling it around. And then on the other side of the ball, what does this Bill's defense look like?

against the bucks because the bucks can line up and run the ball at you. And we've seen that the bills have struggled with that. So in this strange little period here as we get toward the playoffs, what is this Bill's team that we at all crowned as the best in the NFC a few weeks ago? What are they as they gear up for the stretch run? That is my big question. Yeah, I think it's a huge question because the difference between expectations and reputation and actual performance has been, I mean, it's been so great for the bills this year.

I mean, there might be, there might not be another team in the league this year that has as big a discrepancy between who we expect them to be and who they've actually shown us on a week to week basis. And yeah, I mean, look, we know they're not going to run the ball a lot. But I want to see them do a little bit more creative stuff on offense. I want to see them use Josh Allen's athleticism and his legs a little bit more and his physicality and, you know, kind of like let him take over more games than he has so far right now. But yeah, I mean, this is a really weird spot this week because it wasn't just what happened on Monday night and how ugly that game was and how frustrating that loss was. I mean, and they were close. I mean, look, they missed that field goal where they were kicking into the wind late in the game. You know, just a couple of very small things needed to turn in that game.

And the outcome would have been completely different. The way we'd be talking about Bill Belichick and Mac Jones would be completely different if just, you know, literally a couple feet, a couple inches. here and there. But it's all the stuff that's happened after that as well. I mean, it's Sean McDermott's reaction, the things that he has said after the game. It's kind of the rumors of is there discord right now on the coaching staff and are, you know, Brian Dable and Sean McDermotton not in agreement. So there's just a lot of stuff kind of bubbling under the surface that if you go down to Tampa and you lose badly to Tom Brady who loves beating the bills, I mean, this is a guy who's a very good track record against this organization.

you know, that that stuff can start festering when you're not living up to your potential and, you know, you get to mid-December and you're, you know, you're really falling behind. In a season where you weren't supposed to. Yeah. In a season where this was supposed to be your real shot. All right. It's time. Sell me on Thursday night football.

All right. So we got Thursday of football. It is the Steelers against the Vikings. And first of all, I will say, this game matters, right? We're talking about who's in it, who's not in it at all of that sort of stuff. Steelers are currently in the number eight. spot in the AFC, so they still have plenty to play for. And the Vikings are in the nine seed in the NFC. So both of these teams right there in it really desperately need a win to stay relevant. A loss

would be pretty devastating, I think especially for the Vikings. If the Vikings were to lose this game, I'm not sure if they can recover enough in the playoff standings. But there's some great star power here, right? If you love watching some of the best players in the game, there's a lot to like in this game. Most notably, TJ Watt, who is now the odds favorite to win the defensive player the year award. Justin Jefferson, one of your favorite players with the Viking. Justin Jefferson. This is a potentially like very memeable game. Like it could be one of those really fun games on Twitter because Mike Zimmer does a lot of crazy stuff. Mike Tomlin always has a lot of really good sideline reactions. You know that one of the quarterbacks, or let's be honest, probably

both of the quarterbacks will do something that makes you go, oh, no. Somebody's going to throw a really bad interception. So look, I think there's a lot of entertaining elements in this game. So you don't have to sell me. I don't think it should be a super, super hard style. I think you're going to be excited to watch this game. No, I'm going to watch it. No, we all know.

We all know I'm going to watch it. I have a friend, we have friends staying with us and my friend's going to a show down the road. She's like, do you want to go to the show? and I was like, I got to watch Kirk Cousins play against Ben Ronsberger. I can't go. So we're going to have dinner. But post dinner, I'm going to be tuning into this game. All right, that's all we got.

It is time now for our team visit with Bull Wolf. Let's get to it. All right. It's time now for this week's team visit. I am very happy to be welcoming a buddy of mine who also happens to cover the Philadelphia Eagles for the athletic. Bull Wolf. Well, how are you doing, man?

I'm doing very well. You know, we've got this late season, week 14. team buy for the Eagles. So I'm glad, you know, these few days off, you're making me work. So here's a bit of a window into how I do this show. First of all, I'm sorry about that. Second of all, I didn't know the Eagles were on a buy when I asked you to do this. Third of all, we already talked about the dolphins on this show who are also on a buy.

I'm extremely organized. So it's really just, oh, this team interests me. Let's talk about this. I don't usually know who's even playing on the follow. Sunday until I talk to Nate about what we're doing on the Friday show. That's the only reason I know what the schedule looks like. I'm the same way. I like, on Sunday, I like look at the schedule and the league scoreboard and I have no idea

what teams are playing until that day. Unless I'm still in a Survivor League, in which case then I'm looking at it to maybe make my pick. I typically figure out what I'm talking about with Nate on like Wednesday morning. So I have a couple days to rewatch everything. But until Wednesday morning, I don't know what the games are. And I asked you to do this on Monday. I pick the dolphins for that other segment on Monday.

So that's why. That's why we're talking about two teams that are on a buy. It's like the reverse Andy Reid, like you're only interesting entering the buy on the Robert May's show. Well, I mean, there's both teams that have faced very bizarre seasons, right? I mean, the Eagles coming into it, we're strange. We're going to get into that. The dolphins have had such a weird ride.

They're both still in it in this incredibly strange season where everyone still seems to be relevant, even if you're heading into your week 14 by. I want to talk about the Eagles kind of through that lens. Coming into the year, I have no idea what to make of them. There's zero idea, right? You have this roster of kind of aging pieces, and it's very expensive, and I don't really know who's going to be around and who's not. You have a first-year head coach who has this really weird opening press conference,

and we don't really know what to make of him or what he's going to be. I want to ask you, so far, through the first-year head coach who has this really weird opening press conference, and we don't really know what to make of him, through 13 weeks, how has this Eagles team deviated from what you expected them to be coming into the year? Well, that's interesting. And I think that I and, you know, Zach Berman, who I cover the team with, have both been guilty of this of like knowing going into this season. Okay, it's a first year head coach. We got to be patient. We got to let them, you know, identify who they are, figure things out. you know, this is a first-time head coach who is also a first-time play caller. They have a first-time defensive coordinator.

Like all of these guys are not going to hit the ground running just from like a game planning standpoint, a game management standpoint. And yet, like, that's also the job, you know, every week is a season. And we're like, okay, like, how could they, how could they have this game plan? You know, how could Nick Siriani make that decision? How could he be, you know, so conservative on fourth down here? And it has changed over the course of the season. And I think what has been surprising is that the way that they change the offense about midway through the season to really embrace Jalen Hertz the runner and use his superpower as a runner and opening things up for the rest of the running game, I was expecting that to be their game plan early on.

Why do you think it wasn't? It's a great question. And it's still a question that I would like to get to the bottom of. And I think part of it is, so week one in Atlanta, they have a game plan that was sort of very similar to the Gardner-Minchu game plan that we saw last Sunday against the Jets, which was nothing but short passes, getting the ball out quick, and it worked beautifully. You know, the Falcons defense did not see it coming. It was fantastic. And I think that, I think they were sort of chasing that performance a little bit. But it's not really who Jalen Hertz is.

and I think they wanted to, I think part of it is, you know, long term, the goal of this season is sort of to find out if Jalen Hertz is, I sort of object to saying it's whether he's the quarterback, the franchise quarterback, and more is he worth being the quarterback next year when you still have him on a rookie deal? Those are two different questions. But it's two different questions. And I think, you know, the goal of this season was to help evaluate Jailen Hertz and, you know, more importantly evaluate the rest of the roster and who were the guys. who are going to be here long term and be sort of the tent pulls. And I think they wanted to see what Jailen Hertz could do as, you know, a pocket passer. And they weren't necessarily, you know, prioritizing, let's just win this game, which is probably, I think Nick Siriani would object to that. I think he would say that, you know, the goal is always to win every game.

But I think, you know, figuring out what Jailen Hertz could do in the Nick Siriani ideal offense was part of it. That said, like, it probably took too long for them to, turn the page to embracing, you know, this, this, like, superhero running game that they could have with Jalen Hertz and this offensive line, which is, which is still really good. And I feel like that's what I just didn't expect. I didn't know if they'd be able to tap into this version of it, where you'd have this really diverse and just, I don't know, there's so many different moving parts that work together, like the way that the tackles can move and just the ascension of Jordan Milata and how all of that kind of fits together. And that offensive line

as a cohesive unit combined with the numbers advantages they create for themselves, make for an elite running game. And I just didn't think elite running game was on the table for them. And that is just an area where they've been better than I expected them to be. So you said, outside of Hertz, which we'll get to, part of this process is evaluating who the pieces are moving forward, who are your building blocks. That to me was the most important thing. And I still struggled to do that.

And there are guys that obviously are going to be there. And I think the roster overall is much better than I expected it to be. But if you were looking at this team top to bottom and you were trying to figure out who were the guys that are going to be pivotal on this roster if they're contenders in say 2023, what would that list of guys look like to you? Well, it's a good question and it's the way that I was viewing things too. And you entered this season, this roster, there was nobody. Not a single starting player was on his second contract. There was, you know, guys between 26 and 29, your athletic prime, the only starter on the team is Javon Hargrave, who they signed in free agency from the Steelers and who has been great. And no surprise, he's like the one guy in his prime. He's been great. Everybody else is either like an old holdover like Fletcher Cox and Jason Kelsey and Brandon Graham or these young guys who they sort of needed to see something from. Now, what they did is- What a bizarre roster construction. It's so fascinating. And that tells the story of like why they, you know, plummeted after the Super Bowl. It's because they didn't have, there was this,

this like dead era of drafts for them. So what happened is the, you know, the guys who were entering for agency this year, the guys from the 2018 draft, they committed, so they made five picks in that draft. One of them was Matt Pryor. They traded him before the season. The other four guys have all been signed to midseason contract extensions. So that's Dallas Goddard, Jordan Milata, Josh Sweat, and Avanti Maddox. Now, I think that, so my, Lata and Sweat were the first two guys they signed. They signed those guys basically right at the beginning of the season. My lot of made a lot of sense.

I thought that there's a chance that it was going to look like a real steal, and I think it already does. Like if he hits the market this offseason as a 25-year-old, which he is the way he's playing, he becomes probably the highest paid left tackle in the game. So they're getting a steal on that. And it makes sense that he would take that deal to, you know, having been a seventh round pick. Josh Swett, you're betting on. him having a good season. He hasn't totally delivered. It's a bit of a leap of faith,

but I think, you know, he's in that conversation. I bet on the talent there. I believe in his ability. I think that he's going to be a really good player. And he's, you know, the big question on him was health, and he has proven that he can stay healthy. He can handle a starter's load of snaps. That was a bit of a question heading into the year. Dallas Goddard, you know, obviously it was like, will they or won't they? When are they finally going to trade Zacherts and move on. It took longer than we all expected. They finally did it. And, you know, since Zacherts was traded, Dallas Goddard has been one of the best tight ends in the league. And so that deal already looks like a fine bet to make as well. The Avanti Maddox one, I thought it was like,

I get a little bit wary anytime like the Eagles in particular are fully committing to a narrative. And so it was like, okay, these four guys, like let's close out the draft class. And Avante Maddox has been, like this has been the best year of his career. He's been very good. He's a guy that they love from a culture standpoint. I just wasn't sure that, like, if he hits the market, are you really not going to be able to get this deal then? Do you really need to do it now? That feels like a guy settling into a position, right?

He's been bouncing around so much. Totally. And the fact that he's played one role all season in the slot, that is just so important for young defenders to be able to have one thing that they do rather than, well, now you're a safety because we need a safety. That's a really hard path to development for young guys in the secondary. Totally, totally. And so you look at the rest of the roster, who are the other guys who were going to be here in 2023?

You know, it's a lot of sort of faith in young guys. I mean, up front, Milana's great. Leonard Dickerson has been really good as the season has gone on. I think there's a question as to whether he's going to stay at guard or whether he becomes the eventual successor to Jason Kelsey at center. You know, Isaac Siamalo has been on injured reserve. He's probably, you know, penciled in as a starting offensive lineman moving forward. Then you're probably going to have to turn over a couple spots. You know, Lane Johnson's not going to be here forever.

Brandon Brooks is probably not going to be here beyond this season. They probably need one more blue chip offensive linemen over the next couple of years added. At wide receiver, you know, Devante Smith has been great. Jalen Rager has been bad, like very bad, one of the worst receivers in the NFL based on as many snaps as he gets. I think Quez Watkins is like you're happy with him if he's a three. He is what he is. You love him as a four. he is. Right. As a two right now, it's a little bit much. But he's like, he's a talented

player. And I think there's reason to think that he can ascend. Running back, I mean, two years down the road, who cares. Like, you know, who cares now the way they approach it. Every running back who's in the league now is not going to be in the league in two years. Like it's, you know, everything happens so quickly. On defense, it's like they've got a lot of work to do. Up front, Derek Barnett's scheduled to be a free agent. I don't know if he comes back. Milton Williams, their third round pick who can play inside and outside has been pretty promising, and I think he'll be here for a while. But other than that, like, they need a lot of work on the defensive line. And then the back seven, there is nobody who you could pencil in for that 2023 lineup other

than Avanti Maddox. I mean, their linebackers have been not very good. T.J. Edwards is fine. But the other four starting spots in the secondary are either over 30 or free agents at the end of the offseason. So Darius Slay will be here for a couple more years, probably. but after that Rodney McLeod, Anthony Harris, Stephen Nelson, those guys are all gone. And they've got this like weird roster pile up of all these backup cornerbacks who they've acquired from other teams that they're sort of trying to throw against the wall and hope somebody sticks. But there's, I mean, there's nobody there who you're counting on. So like long term, they need to completely overhaul the back seven and hope that what they've done on offense is going to be good enough. So I want to talk about draft capital as it relates to the back seven in a second.

Looking at that just in a vacuum, though, that's not. a bad place to be. If you're looking at the guys they have and the positions where they have guys that you feel good about, left tackle, one interior offensive line spot, Lane Jots can play into his mid-thirty. His health is a question, but you'd hope maybe a few more years he can stick around, wide receiver, edge rusher, whatever with Darius Slay, I mean, that's a different question. That's not a bad core to build around.

I mean, that's just more young building blocks than I might have expected them to have. coming into this season, which I think as an Eagles fan, you can take some solace in that. I will say, though, looking at their financial world here over the next couple years, what do you think about some of the deals they handed out to guys like Fletcher Cox, like Brandon Graham, as they try to bridge those eras? Because it kind of feels like the money is a little bit naughty for them over the next couple seasons because of the investments they've made in some of those areas. So it's less about the deals and more the real.

restructures and especially Fletcher Cox won before the start of this season when they guaranteed his deal for, uh, for 2022 in exchange for cap room this year. Now, to be fair, they use that cap room for signing those four guys that we talked about.

But I mean, Fletcher Cox is a very descending player. And I don't mean that to say that he's a bad player. Like he's still one of the better defensive tackles in the league. Yeah, I mean, yes, he gets, this is like a constant conversation with, within the Eagles. You know, he's always getting double teams. Look at what he does for Jamon Hargrave.

Well, I mean, Fletcher Cox has been getting double teamed for five years and his numbers have never been this bad in just in terms of just impacts. You know, he's still a very good player. But I think if they could have traded him at the deadline, that would have been a good thing for them to do. And there's always been this, this tension between Cox and this defense that is asking him to be a little bit less attack-minded than he was in the past. The Graham thing, I think it actually worked out okay. It wasn't a crazy amount of money moved around. And they are like when it comes to managing the cap, they do the same thing over and over,

which is push money into the future. And like that makes sense, especially in a world where who knows what's going to happen in a couple years. But I actually think that they will be fine from a cap standpoint, aside from disagreeing with the decision to guarantee Fletcher Cox's contract. All right. Are you ready to have the Joe Harts conversation? Let's do it.

So that's all we do. All right. I think what you said at the beginning is exactly right. And the fact that you're around this team overall all the time, it's no surprise that you have a better feel for it than I do. But the question of whether he should be the quarterback next year and whether he's the quarterback for the long term can be different questions. Because you don't have to move on from him.

You have him on a totally cheap deal. And you can create not only a functional NFL offense, but a pretty darn fun NFL offense with him as centerpiece for it. There's 10.5. Yes. Right. And Jillen Hertz. is the offense.

He accounts for 75% of the offense between his arm and his leg. So it's like, yes, there are warts, but like the Jalen Hurts offense is a top 10 offense. All right. If you had to predict it right now, it's December 8th, do you think that those three first round picks are used on players or are used to acquire a quarterback? My gut at the moment, and this is what I've said, is that, like you said, like Jalen Hertz, there's always this conversation every Sunday, like on Nego's Twitter. It's like this half the people are like, you can never have a franchise quarterback who can't throw the ball. And the other half are saying, you know, this is great.

To me, it is, he is right in the middle where you can explore what's out there. I think they will look into Russell Wilson for sure. Howie Roseman has always had a little bit of a thing for Russell Wilson because they let him get away in that 2013 draft. They wanted him. They had to sell for Nick Fools. It worked out okay in the end. What an amazing sliding doors moment. Unbelievable sliding doors. And so I think he'd love to write that historical wrong, like that narrative. But I don't think that will end up happening. You know, the other guys at the top of that veteran market, I just don't think that it will happen.

and then like you're talking about a Garoppolo or something like why wouldn't you just roll things back with Jalen Hertz? Then you look at the draft. You know, Howie Roseman went to a Kenny Pickett game live in person, which is rare for him. He doesn't usually do that. Four hour drive, right? In the background. I mean, it's not super bad. Yeah.

I don't think Howie Rosen was driving that four hours. I think he's flying into Pittsburgh. Let's be fair. But my guess right now is that they explore, they decide to run things back. with Hertz and Minchew, who's like a solid backup, right? That's a fine tandem. And they trade back from one of those two third, from one of those three first round picks for some kind of future 2023 draft pick so that they again have that flexibility to find the next off season to maybe make a move again. That's my guess. I think that's exactly what happens. And I think that the moment they run into any sort of roadblock during the

2022 season, people lose their fucking minds. Right. I mean, I think that's, that is the story, as it is most likely going to be written. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, you know, short of being able to get a guy who's going to single-handedly change the trajectory of the franchise, they bet on Hertz making improvements on the margins, they bet on a full offseason of being able to cater the offense to him a little bit more. they bring in some kind of veteran receiver through free agency so Jalen Rager doesn't have to play so much

and hope that that takes enough of a leap and then you know maybe the 23 draft they can they can leverage the future then I think that's probably what ends up happening my question about this I think this is just a larger kind of philosophical question if it speaks to what you said a little bit earlier where it's like all right is the best offense for us right now necessarily the best offense for the development of our young players long term like if we're playing this very specific style of football on offense, are we progressing ultimately in the direction that we need to? Not only just Jalen Hertz, but Devante Smith.

Are we asking the things of him? I think that's the really interesting thing is that. Right. Like Jalen Hertz and Devante Smith, even though they played together for a year in college, that is not the perfect combination of quarterback wide receiver. And if you want to maximize DeVante Smith, like you're not playing Jalen Hertz a quarterback.

Not that that should be the goal, but it is one of the odd tensions of the offense that these two guys don't really fit perfectly together. And it's one of those things. Theoretically, when the quarterback that you think, if Jalen Hertz runs into that artificial wall and you don't think that he can take you where you need to go and you need to move on to a veteran or you need to draft somebody in the first round if you trade back, whatever, can you flip that switch?

Is it going to be as simple as dropping the new quarterback in there and has the rest of your core ascended in the way that you need to while playing. in this hyper-specific type of offense. I have no idea what the answer to that is, but I think it has to be a question that this team is asking itself. I think it's fascinating, and I think that's a great thing that,

I think you're absolutely right. They're going to be talking about that, like, every day in the off-season. The questions like that, even like, you know, the offensive line, like, you know, is not that like Landon Dickerson is some unpolished product, but like is a year and a half of blocking for Jalen Hertz

in this run-focused offense? Is it going to be easy for him? him to flip the switch to, you know, different kind of pass sets so that they can get the ball out quick to Devante Smith, who wins so quickly. But it's like so precise and the ball needs to come out right on time. I mean, those are the questions for the guys making the important decisions. And it's also like the questions for the coaches, like their evaluation of the coaching staff, can these guys be able to flip that switch when the time comes? And I will say, I think that their ability to tap into this version of their offense is a point in favor of Nick Siriani and the job

that they have done so far. I think that what they've been able to do over the last month and a half gives me more hope about what that staff and what this era can look like. As somebody who's been close to it, somebody who's watched him every day, heard the way he communicates, just gotten a sense of him. How do you square what the Siriani era has looked like 13 games in? Well, I would say that I also think that the game on Sunday when they beat the Jets was like a great point in in Siriani's favor to that point because they did totally change the offense from from what it had been under Jalen Hertz. And like Arden Munchu goes out and plays, you know, his numbers are fantastic.

It's like the best game of the season by EPA per play for an Eagles quarterback. You know, the offense was as productive as it's been all year. It was against a very bad Jets defense, let's be fair. But it was like totally different. was Gardner-Minchu throws 25 passes, three of them are throwaways. So of the other 22 passes he throws, 15 were within five yards of the line of scrimmage. Right. So it's like screens, checkdowns, that's what was working.

And I thought it was like a really impressive game by Siriani to be able to flip the switch and have the guys on offense know their roles like to precision in that situation. Like, you know, the second touchdown to Dallas Goddard is like a beautiful. beautiful little rub route from Boston Scott, who like hasn't been asked to do that in this offense the last couple of weeks. It's thrown a little bit behind him, but it's beautifully executed. You know, the guys on the checkdowns knew where they needed to be. Ques Watkins makes a nice play running across the field. So anyway, in terms of like the Siriani offense, I think it has been nice to see that they can win in multiple ways. As I said before, like maybe it took a little too long

to flip the switch to the run heavy offense. But like, like, the Siriani, you know, his core principles of like connection, which sort of sounds hokey. But it's like the guys, even the veterans on the roster, have sort of bought into that stuff. So like early grades for Siriani for me, it's pretty positive. Like I think it's been, I think it's been pretty good. And again, like I have been riding the wave of the season a little bit like the first six games. I'm like, okay, this guy, like, he might not last into year two. You know, they're going to try to, Jeffrey's going to go try to hire Lincoln Riley. We'll see what happens. And then, like, you know, things change. So ask me again at the end of the season. But right now, I would say, I would say,

in terms of, like, running an offense, this guy who was not like the most highly sought after offensive mind in the league has come in as a first time offensive coordinator, a first time head coach. And again, they have a top 10 offense that really, like, based on their talent, nobody would have expected. I think that's totally fair. All of it. I think that's exactly how I feel. And you framing it as every week is this season, I think is exactly right. I think this team has lived that in a way that a lot of other teams that's a lot of other teams. That's a, that is a hundred percent true. It does feel like if there is a source of panic on that coaching staff, it resides with the Jonathan Gannon worries that I've sensed among Eagles fans and the Eagles internet. Isn't that always

the case though? When you have these uneven performances and when your defense is like a question mark in any way, the defensive coordinator becomes public enemy number one in any NFL city. It kind of feels like that has happened with the Eagles right now. And I like, this is probably more surprising to me than the offense. Like, I thought the defense was going to be pretty good this year. I thought the pass rush was going to be really good. They've been, like, now it's, it's one of those things where like the pass rush win metrics do not square with like their production metrics. But like to my eyes, they have not been. They have not been. They have not been great.

And it's been sort of like every week they are the perfect mirror test for whether the opposing quarterback is good or not. Like every good quarterback they've played has just destroyed them. And every bad quarterback they've played has struggled. Now, like last week was worrisome. Zach Wilson had a really good first. I guess the Jets as a team had a good first half. And then they changed some things up and tightened it up a little bit.

But it's been a little bit disappointing. I think given what we saw during training camp, we thought it was going to be a little bit more multiple, a little bit more disguise based. Now, they've changed things up in the middle of the season, but those first like six, seven games when they were just sitting back very passively, they led the league in like zone percentage and like were bottom two in blitz rate. They've changed that as the season has gone on. But like that was a tough introduction to Jonathan Gannon. And like, I think that part of it was he wanted these guys to, like, you know, play without thinking, right? Is, like, is what you always want guys to do. I think he wanted to make sure that there weren't any, like, mental lapses early on that they were playing the base stuff that they got it down, Pat, before opening things up.

We can debate whether that was the right chain of events, like whether you want to give everybody everything, get it right. and then by the time mid-season comes, we're getting everything right, versus get our core stuff down and then build from there. It has been very up and down, as you said. I would have to assume that with a lot of those high-value picks, they're going to be looking for defensive playmakers next spring. If you just look at the construction of the opportunity,

maybe that's too simplistic. But I would not be surprised if one of those top-ten picks, they went and tried to find an Uber athlete they could put its safety or somebody that was a corner and try to rebuild that thing. My assumption is the hope among Eagles fans and among the organization is that the defense looks a lot better in December of 2022 than it looks at this exact moment. Right. And I think like knowing the way that Howie Roseman builds a team, you know, from the trenches out, I would be shocked if one of those first three picks is not a defensive lineman and most likely an edge rusher, given that they have Hargrave and Milton Williams potentially inside moving forward. And then I think you're right. I think they're going to make some big splash at safety this offseason either in front. free agency or in the draft. Now, like under Howie Roseman, they have been much more successful

in free agency finding safeties than they have in the draft. I think that is in the back of their heads. And it's actually supposed to be a pretty good class of safeties, hitting the open market. So I think they will do something there. I mean, both of their starting safeties now are over 30 and scheduled to be free agents. So like by necessity, they have to address that. But I think that's like one of their top priorities this off season. I think you're right. The conversation, we could have had about the Eagles in early December. How I would have pictured it in August, it could have been 10,000 different things.

This is not the one I thought I'd be having. I didn't think I would be talking and thinking about the Eagles with this sort of tepid optimism and warmth in this way that has kind of happened. And it's cool. It's just a team that has surprised me in a way that I've appreciated. And I think that that's where I sit with them right now. I think that's right.

And I think, like, the one thing you always have to keep in mind with the Eagles, the wonderful gift that they have is that they get to play on the NFC East. And that's not going away. I mean, like Daniel Snyder, Jerry Jones, and the Maras are not going anywhere. I mean, I think we'd all like to see Daniel Snyder go somewhere. But that's not changing. And like, for all of the criticisms that we have of, like, the way the Eagles have, handled the roster and some of the inter office politics over the past couple years. Like, it's the best run organization in the division by a wide stretch in my estimation.

Yeah, I think the Cowboys have done a very good job of finding talent over the last five or six years. They're scouting departments. Fantastic. Yeah. But it's just they can't, you know, they can't handle drama. I tend to agree with you. I think the Eagles have put themselves in a much better position than I would have anticipated this summer. Bull Wolf, it's always great to talk to you, my friend. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time out to do this, especially during your week off. It means a lot. Thank you very much for having me. All right, guys, that's all we got for today.

Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to Lindsay and to Bo for their time. Always great to chat with both of them. Thank you to you guys. We will be back tomorrow with Nate and Shield, our week 14 picks, our week 14 Friday 5. Really looking forward to that. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast wherever you might do that.

It would mean a lot to me. please subscribe to the athletic.com slash football show, as we alluded to earlier I wrote this week. You go check out my story on the Cardinals' defense. That would be great. I really enjoyed writing it. It's always fun. I kind of sit there and have those conversations with people. I loved chatting with Vance Joseph.

And we talk for about an hour, just about all the different things that he's done and the different things that they've considered and how they've grown. It was a really illuminating conversation. I hope that comes through when I wrote. So please go check that out. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.