The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL trade deadline recap with Bill Barnwell

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

It was the wildest trade deadline day in NFL history, with 10 deals being made and players like Bradley Chubb and T.J. Hockenson among the players on the move. Robert Mays and ESPN's Bill Barnwell recap the day on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube2:47 Busiest trade deadline ever5:00 Where were the Giants?7:00 Chase Claypool to the Bears23:03 Calvin Ridley to the Falcons33:23 Bradley Chubb to the Dolphins53:23 T.J. Hockenson to the Vikings64:28 A few smaller deals66:28 Brian Burns/Rams rumor78:40 What are the Packers doing?83:18 Mays called the Claypool deal! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show. Today's Tuesday, November 1st. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's our good friend Bill Barnwell. Barnwell, how you doing, bud? At least we have stuff to talk about today, Mays.

We really do have stuff to talk about. We're recording this at 4.22 p.m. Central time. The trade deadline is about an hour past. We got a lot of trades today. We got the most active trade deadline day. perhaps in NFL history, according to Adam Schaefter, which I'm pretty into. It's much better than nothing happening. Twice as many trades, according to ESPN's Kevin Seaford, as we had ever had on a trade deadline before.

And granted, some of those trades were Dean Marlowe, and we're not going to talk about those quite as much. What I mean? I really wanted to dig into the Marlowe chatter. Do you want to call my bluff on this one and see, we can go for a half hour on Dean Marlowe if you'd like? I'm all set. This is your show, not mine. What I found so fascinating about today is that it felt like the ante kept getting up as the day went along.

Like, we were talking when the T.J. Hawkinson trade happened and we're like, oh, man, we could do an entire show around T.J. Hawkinson and Marcus Brady. And now those feel like afterthoughts compared to what happened afterwards. It's always a fun bet when you're like, all right, we're going to do a trade deadline reaction show. And you're sitting there hoping, like, God, I hope we get enough shit to talk about in the next three hours. And then they start to roll in.

It's like, okay, you guys can slow down. Yes. I only have so much stuff I can go look at before we actually start recording. I think we hit a nice little sweet spot here. So I wanted to ask you, just on a general level, this increased activity. Yep. What do you think this is a product of? It's a combination of things, right?

Like, I don't think it's just one thing. I don't think it's as simple as saying the Rams, although I do think the Rams and their success trading picks for players. does figure into it. I don't know that the Bradley Chub trade, for example, happens if the Rams are not as successful as they wrote the Von Miller deal last year. I think more than anything this year versus other years is that so many teams are still in it.

There's so many teams that could justifiably, credibly say, okay, we can get a playoff birth. We can go out and win a playoff game. And maybe we couldn't have done that five or six years ago because of the records, because there's a 14-team playoff versus a 12-team playoff, and because there's so much competition now with those so many, having so many teams that are four in three or three-and-four, I think that's led to a trade market

where there were more buyers than sellers, which really worked out well for the few teams that were willing to sell this office or during the trade deadline. I think the Bradley Chubb deal is that. The Hawkinson trade is probably that. It's funny because... I think the Hawkinson trade is something totally different than the Chub trade. For the Vikings?

Yes, absolutely. Interesting. Okay, well, we can dig into that. But a couple of these others, like Chase Claypool to the Bears, Calvin Ridley to the Jags, those are not trades for right now. No. So it really does feel like there are a bunch of different factors happening here. So, yeah, I do think that the chub trade, I do think, is almost a direct response to what has worked over the last year and the dolphins thinking that they're in it. But I also think there are a few different reasons behind a lot of these.

So I don't think there's one specific explanation for all of it. Where do you want to start? Should we start with the chub trade? I mean, that's the one that involves a first-round pick. Yeah, I was going to start with the claypool trade because it's the most relevant to me. But if you want to start with the chump trade, we can start with the badly, friendly chub trade. Let's start with the claypool trade for your sake. Since the Giants, the six and two New York Giants, the immediate turnaround of the Brian

Dable, New York Giants did not make a trade this trading deadline, which I'm a little surprised by. I'll be honest with you. Are you, though? Why? Yes. I didn't think they were going to make a major trade. And I was already on the ESPN family of networks to make the ridiculous argument that

the Giants should trade Sequan Barclay because he's not going to be on their next grade team. But they went six and two. They're not going to trade Saquan Berkeley, nor should they. If they had been like four and four or even five in three, maybe I think otherwise. But the trade I pitched for them was trading for Albert Agway Bunum from the Broncos. And I thought that made perfect sense for a team. Isn't that a smart trade? No, I was talking about pronunciation of the name. Oh, did I get it? I don't know if I was. I think so. You were close enough. You said it with such confidence that I believe that you got it. I just said it fast. But I believe I got it. I think for a team that just lost Daniel Bellinger to an eye injury that already could have used. another tight end. And for the Broncos who were selling at the deadline already and have Agway Buna as a healthy scratch, I mean, I just thought it made perfect sense for both sides. So a little

surprised I didn't make a move like that to kind of supplement their roster, especially after trading Cadarius Tony away before the deadline several days ago. But yeah, I guess I can understand that just because the price tag wouldn't be that high. But I also think the giants probably understand that this is not about right now. This is about next year, it's about, the year after. I feel like Joe Shane is one of those people who has a pretty healthy outlook about what they really are and where they're really going. So I'm not shocked that they didn't make a move for the short term. But then again, at the same time, we just saw the Bears trade for a wide receiver and they're not exactly playing for right now either. Well, we can dig into this.

I don't think it's a move for right now. I think there's some of that involved, but I think this is a move for the next 18 months of Justin Fields' development. So, well, before we get into the specifics, what did you think about the move just first blush, first reaction? Surprised. It made more sense as I heard more about what the actual compensation was going to be. I mean, I'm not surprised the Steelers traded Chase Claypool, but I thought that a competitive team would make a better offer for Chase Claypool than what the Bears were sending out.

Now, I did not expect it was going to be for Chicago's second round pick. I think I kind of had the idea of like a late two or an early three in my head. So when the Bears pick was announced, I thought, okay, that makes sense because really at that point, if it's going to be a competitive team making a trade, it's going to be a first rounder. And I didn't think Chase Claypool was going to Net the Steelers a first rounder, but I certainly understand why the Bears would do it. but I have a lot of questions about whether they would have been better off just staying put and drafting a wide receiver. So Josina Anderson reported today that the Packers were thought to have the best offer for Chase Claypool this morning

and that the initial Bears offer was not enough, that the Bears thought another team might be involved so they eventually upped their offer. If the Packers were offering their second round pick or a third round pick, maybe the Bears had to up their offer for it to be the Chicago second and not Baltimore's. whatever the factors, another team obviously being a suitor pushes the final price tag up. Sure, but. I'm not sure that justifies it, by the way. I'm just trying to figure out how we got here. Oh, of course.

And I think there was a market for Claypool. I think there were definitely teams who were interested in trading for Claypool, and I wouldn't be shocked if the Packers had offered a second round pick for Claypool. By the way, can we also point out that two teams traded for receivers in the NFC North today, and neither of them are the Packers? Like, can you imagine just how mad Aaron Rogers must be about this whole situation? I, the thing about Claypool is this, right? I mean, we've all watched him play.

He's dropped from a little over two yards per route run as a rookie down to right around one yard per route run this year. He's one of the least efficient wide receivers in football. And yes, we are making the case, I'm sure that he has not been exactly in the best offense to play to his skill set. But this is a situation now where the bears are trading a second round pick for Chase Claypool, a significant second round pick, probably going to land in the first eight or nine slots. I think it's 38 is the projection per ESPN's football power index. By doing that, you're basically telling Chase Claypool, we see you as a superstar. We see you as maybe not an AJ Brown caliber player, but that next tier of wide receiver.

And so for Chase Claypool, even if he only has an okay second half of the year, I think he has every right to go out and ask for significant money from the bears right now. And I think, while the bears can afford that, I just don't know that that's better than drafting a wide receiver in that same spot in the high second round and trusting that you're going to have a reasonable shot at finding a guy as good as Chase Claypool, especially the Chase Claypool we've seen over the past couple of years. I was talking to Dayton Brooklet earlier today because I was asking him this exact question. All right, if the bears are picking from 35 to 40 with their second round pick, is there going to be a guy or two available in that range of this draft that you think could be better than Chase Claypool? Sure. Even in the relatively short term. His response was there aren't that many guys in that range that would be potential targets, according to his top 50 that's going to be coming out on Wednesday.

And even if there were one or two guys maybe in that general area, I understand if you're Ryan Poles, looking at Chase Clayton. pool and saying, I understand Chase Claypool is a flawed or incomplete player, but I know what Chase Claypool is. And when you're drafting a rookie, even if that guy eventually becomes a better player than Chase Claypool, having somebody that is a known commodity and a known quantity to help with Justin Fields' development right now, I get that. I get landing on that side of the line, even if the value in a vacuum is not skewed in your direction. Okay. Forget the value in a vacuum. Like on the field, the Steelers just got rid of Chase Claypool,

even though they have their own rookie quarterback, they're trying to help develop. And of course, the Bears need receiving help more than the Steelers. But we've seen what Chase Claypool looks like in a compromised offense with a terrible offensive line and a limited quarterback in terms of the guys had over the past couple years. And it has not been. good. It has not been pushing the envelope forward. I don't think it's really been helping his offense all that much. And so I think that's my thing is when you say Chase Claypool is a known quantity, I don't agree with you. We know what upside he has. We know what he can be possibly or what he's been at times in the past, but it's not like he's AJ Brown where he's that dude every

single year. He is a guy who's now two years removed from being a real, like, promising star-looking player. Yeah, I don't quite. It's probably the wrong way. way to put it. We've seen him be an NFL player, right? We've seen him make impact on NFL games. I think that's probably the easier way to say. How good Chase Claypool is, is a worthwhile conversation, right? For sure. I don't think we really know how good Chase Claypool is based on the situation in Pittsburgh and also just usage, right? So he's an outside receiver for his first two seasons. That's kind of a mixed bag. Even as that player, he's 6-4-2-20, 230, unbelievable tester. You watch him. I watched every chase.

Claypool deep target from 2021 today. He doesn't play 6-4-230. I'm sorry that you had to go through watching Steelers. Yeah, Ben Rothesberger deep shots from 2021. It was not an enjoyable experience, but I went back and I watched him because he wasn't getting any deep targets this year. So my guy, what is he as a deep receiver? He's not a ball winner. He's not going to go get the ball. He's a big fast guy. And they moved him inside this year. And is that his ultimate destiny in Chicago? Should he be an inside receiver? Darno Mooney has played about half a. receiving snaps in the slot this year. So his role, his skill set, all of these things, I do think are kind of still an unknown

as it relates to his ceiling. But we have seen him be an NFL player. We know he can impact NFL games. You're picking a guy at 40. There's really no way to know that. So the certainty of this guy is an NFL caliber receiver. I'm putting him with my young quarterback that I need information about quickly. I get that argument.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think there's definitely value in that for sure. And I think you could also make the case that maybe he does have untapped potential because he was playing in an offense. Even in 2020, it's not like Ben Rotherzberger's arm was exactly, you know, 2006 Ben Rothersberger or Josh Allen or anything. So maybe with a much stronger armed quarterback in Justin Fields that unlock something for him. But the issue to me is not, okay, getting him on paper right now in terms of the fit, but this off season, the Bears are probably paying Darnell Mooney, right? You'd figure.

They're probably paying Chase Claypool. So now you have two receivers who might be making $20 million a year each. I'm not paying Tarna Mooney $20 million a year. What's he going to get? Like, you're going to let him leave after? Sure. Okay. I mean, Donald Mooney is under contract next season.

So is Chase Claypool. Right. Right. But they're eligible for extensions. Yeah, I'm not extending Darnal Mooney for $20 million a year next off season. I don't. That's what the market for. are like mid-tier, like 1B, 2A receivers is going to be in the next year and a half.

Somebody else can pay down on Mooney $20 million. Okay. Then you have to find another wide receiver, and it'd be really helpful if you had that draft pick to find that wide receiver. I think, like, we sort of run into the Jaguars problem here where, yes, they are better today. But unless Chase Claypool is just totally miscast in Pittsburgh, and he's a totally different player in Chicago, even the rookie version of Chase Claypool was not a number one receiver.

And I'm worried that they don't have that clear path to a number one receiver right now, because even if it's not in terms of money, the two starting wide receiver spots in that lineup are now ticketed towards players who maybe if things break right to be number ones, but are not necessarily that kind of player yet. Yeah, that's my concern, is that does this cut off a path to go in to get another receiver? if you had a guy the eighth overall pick that you loved, are you now going to pass on that guy

because you have Chase Claypool and Darnow Mooney? That's one concern that I have. The other concern that I have is, let's throw the draft out. That second round pick doesn't have to go to a rookie. It doesn't have to be used in the 2020-3 draft. Think about the way the last year has gone. A couple names that come to mind for me.

What was Brandon Cook's available for? If you could have traded that second round... If you could trade that second round pick, they traded for Chase Claypool, but you could trade it for Brandon Cooks, who has an $18 million guaranteed salary next year. Would you rather have Brandon Cooks at $18 million or Chase Claypool at $1 million? Probably Chase Claypool? I think. I don't know.

I mean, I'll tell you what. If the argument is for certainty, I think I have a better idea of what Brandon Cooks looks like, but Brandon Cooks is going to be 30. See, there's a bunch of different competing things going on here. So I understand coming down on either side of this stuff. But my thing is, let's throw Brandon Cook's out of it again. Who could become available next offseason? What is the Amari Cooper-like deal? Because the bear's real advantage when it comes to assets here isn't draft picks.

They've got a couple more after the Roquan and the Robert Quinn deals. The bear's weapon is cap space. It is the finances they can wield. So if you wanted to absorb an Amari Cooper deal, Brown's had an unbelievable amount of cap space this year. They can trade for Amari Cooper and not even think about it. Is there one of those guys that comes available this spring that is more of a known quantity and is more of an impactful player than Chase Claypool?

So this is about opportunity cost more than it's about the value of trading a second round pick for Chase Claypool, in my mind. And you know what? You can use that second round pick on if you don't use it on a wide receiver maze. You can get an offensive lineman to protect your quarterback who's getting killed every single week. I think there are a lot of ways this could go. And I think there's not really a trade in the mix this year where it's obviously a bad trade for either side. Like, I think you can justify every single major deal one way or another. But I think the playful thing has to turn out.

Like, he has to be not a superstar, but he has to be a really above average. like obvious starter to justify this deal. And I think that's likely, but I don't think it's a guarantee by any means. Yeah, I don't think he has to be like your number one receiver. I don't think Darno Mooney has this like number 1A high number two upside guarantee that some other people do. Like Darno Mooney is going to be a free agent in 2023. So if you roll out next year and your receivers are Darnal Mooney, Chase Claypool,

and let's say you do draft one more. more guy, whether it's in the third round, second round, however you choose to chase that guy, or you go get one more free agent. So you have three receivers that you feel solid about, which, God, it's three times as many as you have right now. So that's an upgrade. I don't think that it's, there's anything precluding you from moving on from Darnal Mooney after next season.

With Claypool, it's harder now because of what you've invested. But I don't see Darnal Moody as this like a necessary long-term answer. So I think that for right now, this is about seeing as how many guys you can add to the offense that allows you to evaluate Justin Fields in the short term. And I do think that this does that for the Bears. I think this conversation started with me wondering whether the Bears should have traded for Chase Claypool. And I think it's ending with me wondering whether the Bears should have traded away Darnel Mooney, which is not what I expected to come away from with this conversation. I think Donald Mooney is fine. I think the reason that everyone thinks Darno Mooney is a star in Chicago

is because they're looking at everything else that they're rolling out there. Darnal Mooney compared to the other players on the Bears roster. and for a fifth round pick is a very good player. But Darno Muni, compared to everything else on the Bears roster, and for a fifth round pick is a good player. Compared to every other receiver in the NFL, I think Darno Muni is a solid player. So Darno Muni is like the Mexican pizza Taco Bell.

That's what you're saying. No, I love the Mexican pizza at Taco Bell. Right. But relative to everything else, you're like, oh, man, this is great. I just, again, I think that the Darno Mune conversation is a bit skewed right now because of what the bears have been dealing with the receiver for the last 12 months. So the last thing I'll say about this is that now the designs on what I want for the bears moving forward have firmly shifted to the offensive line.

I went from wanting that TCU receiver in the top 10 to start to watch clips of that left tackle from Penn State. And see, you know, if the bears can get to like six or seven and some quarterbacks go early, like, is this something that could happen? And then who are the free agent guards? So that's what I spent my afternoon doing post-chaise Claypool Trade. And I assume there will be more of that in my future. We did have a text conversation about the Bears Patriots game where I forget what you exactly said, but it was something like, oh my God, how are the Bears going to replace Larry Borum now that he's gone out?

Well, I was joking. When Larry Borum goes out and that's a disaster, that's when you start worrying. It does seem concerning that that's what the Bears' offensive line has turned to in a game they won, by the way, where they were dominant. on offense. All right. Let's get to another receiver trade that is truly wild. Calvin Ridley, going to Jacksonville, I have obviously never seen anything like the conditions surrounding the draft picks traded in this deal.

So right now, according to Adam Schefter, the Falcons get a fifth round pick in 2023 no matter what happens. Yes. And then it's a conditional pick in 2024. If Calvin Ridley is on the roster, the falcons. get a fourth round pick. If he hit certain playtime incentives, they get a third round pick. If he is extended on a long-term deal, they get a second round pick. I have never seen that before, obviously. I don't think any sort of player compensation in a trade has ever been tied to what sort

of contract that player gets later. You would know better than I do, but that's the first time I've ever seen that. Wasn't Leonard Williams trade? Didn't the Giants have to give the Jets? Maybe. an extra pick if he was like franchise. And you know, Dave Geddon was like, yeah, we're doing this guys. You know, they think the trade firm when they were like one and seven, and they were like, yeah, he's, he's good. But we can talk about the Giants another day. I mean, it's, what Leonard Williams makes.

Yes. And because of that. Exactly. Leverage is an important thing when it comes to NFL contracts, guys. I don't know anything about that. No, no, no. What I'll ask you about this, Calvin Ridley-Dill, before you start talking about the fit maybe is,

why did this deal happen now? It's a great question. This is a trade for a guy who's not eligible to play in 2020, who's suspended for the rest of the season, who had a trade request out last year even before he was suspended for the entire season for gambling. A player who is not going to make a difference this year, I don't really understand why either team made this trade now. From the Falcons perspective, you'd figure there'd be more. of a market next off season when he's eligible to return. And from the Jags perspective, if they're going to trade draft picks, why not trade them for a player who's going to help you right now?

So I understand why the Jaggs would want to add Calvin Ridley in the big picture. But it just, the whole thing seems so odd to me that it happened during the last few minutes of the trade deadline for this actual season where the Jags aren't competing and the Falcons are probably in the playoff hunt and don't really need Calvin. or can't even use Calvin Ridley even if they want to. I would agree with you on the Falcon side of that. Would there be a more robust market for him this spring when it's a short-term thing? He can play right away, all of that.

For the Jags, I'm sure they're sitting there thinking about what the 2023 receiver market will look like. And coming to a conclusion where Calvin Ridley is the best possible player, they would be able to accrue in that market, and they don't have to give up a ton to get him. Because if they are going to give him a contract extension, you're probably willing to give away a second round pick in that deal. I mean, these are the guys that are hitting free agency at receiver this offseason. Okay.

Nelson Aguilar, Sterling Shepard, DJ Shark, Marvin Jones, Byron Pringle, Jacoby Myers, Juju Smith-Schuster, Cam Sims, Nikiel Harry, Jarvis Landry. Can we not lumping Juju Smith Schuster and Cam Sims in the same list of players? I was literally just, I was literally reading off the list of their salaries.

That's why. That's how it's ordered. That is not fair to Juju Smith-Shooster. I know he's not the guy from a couple years ago, but still. But those are the guys that we're talking about here. Sure. So who you could reasonably get, them saying we get $11 million for Calvin Ridley next year,

if we don't sign him to a contract extension, he just hits those plates on him, and it's a third round pick. I think for Jacksonville, that's a worthwhile gamble. I mean, this is the same team that just went out and gave Christian Kirk,

whatever they paid Christian Kirk. So I don't know if I really like their taste and wide receivers all that much, frankly. Kevin Ridley's a good player, though. I don't know if he's ever going to be good again, but Calvin Ridley, the last time we saw him play is a pretty good player.

He was struggling in 2021. He was not, he was not playing well before he went down. 2020, he was great, to be fair. I guess he was awesome in 2020. But that was also as the number two receiver in that offense. Like, he's never been that dude in an NFL offense. The one time he had to be last year, he was not very good at doing it.

Now, the Jackson has to have Christian Kirk. Well, I'm going to ignore that and move on. No, I mean, of course. Like, he doesn't have to be the single sole facilitator of offense, but. I was a joke. I think Christian Kirk, you're the number one receiver in Jacksonville. I know. I just was ignoring it. No. But I mean, Kevin really is going to be 28 by the time he plays next year. He's going to turn 29.

He'll turn 29 by the end of the 2023 season. So it's not like he's 25 years old. Like he's at the point where this is probably going to be... He came into the league old, didn't he? Right. He came into the 24. Like, this is probably going to be his one big contract. And the Jaguars, if they trade for him, are probably getting the early parts of his decline. on that new extension. So I think it's defensible, and I do think you're right in that they were not going to have a path to maybe a better player at receiver.

But I don't know how you do a Calvin Ridley contract. Like, what's a fair deal for Calvin Ridley? Well, you probably let him play out the season and then see, right? I don't know. I don't think you'd extend him before the season starts. I think you'd roll the dice and say if we need to franchise him in 2024, we'd franchise them in 2024. Then you'd give up a three and a five for one year of Calvin Ridley at $11 million. That's the dice roll. I mean, that's okay. I guess that's fine, but I don't know.

That roster is not exactly stacked. They're not like Calvin Ridley away from competing, you know? I don't think it's about being a Calvin Ridley away from competing. I think it's about giving Trevor Lawrence a chance in the short term. And does this give Trevor Lawrence the best chance in the short term? Are you willing to pay a premium for that? What I would do if I wanted to give Trevor Lawrence a chance is that I would install an electric shock button on Trevor Lawrence. And any time he ran to the corner of the red zone and went to go throw the ball, I'd hit the shock button. So he didn't throw an interception. That would be the best thing that Jaguars would do to help Trevor Lawrence right now.

All right. So the things that are actually realistic that can help Trevor Lawrence, do you feel like Calvin Ridley is something that that might accomplish? I think so. I think that's reasonable. but could they have traded maybe more draft capital and gone on a better player, like a more sure thing? Like, is there a what, I guess DJ Moore is not really going to get traded, but. DJ Moore's not really going to get traded. And that's kind of the same conversation as the Bears.

Like, what deal are you not executing because you made this one? And it's hard to know until next spring. But the Jags, unlike Chicago, the Jags don't have that sort of count flexibility. They can get it. I mean, if they move on from a couple of those defensive free agents that they signed under the last regime, they can free up a decent amount of money pretty quick. But it's still not a ton. Even if they cut Shaq Griffin and Roy Robertson Harris this offseason,

they're still looking at about $21 million in cap space. So they don't have a ton of flexibility. So again, $11 million at Calvin Ridley might be the best receiver the Jaguars could have added in the next 12 months. But from the Falcons perspective now, they're in such a dire cap situation that they couldn't have gone out and spent a lot of money. But you're in first place in the NFC South, and you have a player who's not going to be on your roster probably ever again. Are you surprised they didn't go out and get someone more significant who could help them right now?

The Falcons? Yeah. No, I'm not surprised. They're in first place in a division where everyone sucks. I'm not surprised. If Marcus Mario da, if 2022 Marcus Mario was my quarterback, I wouldn't be making all-in moves. Okay, not, that's not, that's very different, though. It's not an all-in move. It's can you add an offensive lineman who's young who's going to help you for years to come,

or a piece in the secondary that's going to help you over the next couple years. I know that I traded for a shot, Fenton, but someone more significant than that. Like, I'm not saying add a 35-year-old player, but add a pass-rrrusher or a building block for your roster that is going to help you over the next three or four seasons. I wouldn't be super motivated to do that. I think a Rashad Fetton-type deal where you're giving yourself some depth in the secondary, I think that's fine. I don't know what sort of deal was out on the table for the Falcons that were disappointed that they didn't make.

I'm not sure. I honestly have no idea. But I think depending on what the market was for a young player, you would think that would have been a possibility. Like would they have been better off getting Claypool and sending a second round pick somewhere? Actually, no, because they don't ever throw the ball. That's probably the wrong pick for them. But maybe a defensive player would have made sense. Not because, again, they need to compete this year, but just because they need to add pieces eventually.

I think it's fine. I think you hold on to whatever that second or third round pick is and you use it next season when you have a better understanding of who you are, who your quarterback is going to be, what your plan looks like. I'm not frustrated at all that the Falcons didn't do anything. Okay, that's fine. All right, let's get to the big one here because somehow we've talked to, at a half an hour before getting into the trade that involves a first round pick,

which is 100% on me. All right. Bradley Chubb goes to the Dolphins. Sure. Miami trades the Niners first round pick next season, a 2024th and Chase Edmonds for Bradley Chubb and a 2025 fifth round pick. This shit is insane. This is like the types of deals I'm making in my fantasy league.

Trading away second round picks in 2027. Because I'm like, that's 2027 doesn't exist. Those aren't real. That's what NFL teams are doing now, which is great. what are we thinking about the Bradley Shop trade? I have a question to start with, and you can tell us as a joke question before we get to the actual analysis. But do you think the Broncos had this deal done and they said, listen, I'm not doing this deal unless we come away with Chase Edmonds, who has been terrible this year for an offense that has just been cycling through running backs each and every week. Is Chase Edmonds helping this team?

Was he a part of the trade that was positive for the Broncos? It's a great question. really wondering how Chase Edmonds becomes a turning point in this deal. That is what I think about. And the classic example of this is the Bill O'Brien trade, the famous DeAndre Hopkins deal, where they get the crux of it done. Like Steve Kime has DeAndre Hopkins coming for David Johnson, whose contract was a disaster and a second round pick. He's about to hang up the phone. And then he says, hey, wait, Bill O'Brien, would you swap fourth rounders with me? And like, just that little bit of,

like, do I twist the knife just that tiny bit to get that little bit more of value? I feel like it's so fascinating to me because that's an incredible deal without the fourth round picks. That is the Chase Edbins inclusion in this deal to me. It's great. I mean, Chase Edmonds has been really hard to watch this year. I almost am happy for Chase Edbins just so he can get a fresh start somewhere. Oh, sure. Because what happens happened in Miami was awful. It was hard to watch it at times. So the actual important parts of this trade, what do you think about Bradley job going to Miami. Okay. I don't like it. I don't think it's a good trade for the Miami Dolphins. And I recognize this is not going to make people happy. That is fine. I think number one,

the Dolphins pass rush has been a problem this year, but they have a lot invested on the edge already. They have a manual Ogba signed to a significant deal. I think Jalen Phillips is playing great. I think he has been not consistent necessarily, but like his flash. have been incredible. I was really impressed. I went back and I watched him today just because I was curious about I watched their defense

a couple different times, not as much as I should, but I went back and watched the Minnesota game because I wanted to watch the Vikings offense and then I watched the Detroit game this morning. He's not the type of player I thought he was going to be coming out of college

and they're using him in a different way than I might have expected, but he's really impressive. I mean, he's powerful and explosive and he's really jumped out and compared to the way was playing last year. So I just wanted to note that before we move forward. It's like Jaywin Phillips really jumps off the screen right now. Right. It's not like I look at their

roster and I think, oh my God, they need an edge rusher or they're a disaster. Like, yes, the sack production has not been there. There's some stretches where like Brandon Jones has been their best pass rusher, which is not what I would have expected. But this is also a team that creates pressure with blitzes. They do a lot of exotics. They'll do a lot of sim pressures. Like, you know, yes, they can ideally in a dream scenario, sit back and rush for with Chubb and Phillips and Agba, and that could work out great. But again, as I think about, well, what are we doing with our roster? What's our long-term plan? Like, they're now trading another first-round pick, their last one from this hall of having all those first-rounders because they had their owner

gets suspended and cost them the other first-round pick in this year's draft. And Chubb is a guy who, I mean, he's playing great this year. He's been his best player, his best self this season, but has been inconsistent is 26. It's in the fifth year option of his deal, so he's going to need a new contract immediately. Apparently, that's already been done. Adam Schechter reported that they are signing him to a long-term deal as part of this trade. I saw expected to work out a new deal. I don't know.

Is it actually done? I don't know. Expect it to work out is probably, that's enough for me to think it's probably going to happen here relatively soon. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's no way they're making this trade without thinking it is extremely likely they're getting a contract done in the weeks to come for sure. But, I mean, are the dolphins there? Like, please, if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. If Bradley Chub is the guy the dolphins are hoping for when they trade for Bradley Chubb.

Do you think they have enough to beat the Chiefs or the Bills consistently, where they can feel like their favorites against the Bills or the Chiefs in a game in the playoffs this year? No. I don't think this does that. Like, yes, I mean, like, the bills, they just beat the bills. For sure, that happens. There is a scenario where they could beat the bills. But I'm saying in terms of if this is in Miami, in the playoffs,

I still think the bills or the chiefs are still favored to beat the dolphins. Byron Jones has not played this year, correct? What is his prognosis? He has an injury. I think he had surgery. I want to say an ankle just before the season. I think there has been the expectation that he's maybe a week or two away, but he's been a week or two away all season.

Karen Kauhu or Kaukka, how do you pronounce his last name? I don't know. Kahu. Well, one of us should probably figure that out. Kohu. One of us, professional football people should probably figure that out. I know he's played well when healthy in Jones's absence. They've had Noah Igbonagny had a interception to win a game, which I did not have on my bingo

card before the season. But I think this is a team where, you know, they're going to have to. to win with their pass rush because the secondary, even though they've invested so much in it, because of injuries, because of disappointing play, the secondary has not necessarily been all that great. Yeah, I, on a value level, I understand the questions. And especially if you're going to have to get a pro-chub that contract, and outside of it being inconsistent over his first couple years, he's been hurt. I mean, that's part of the reason he's been inconsistent is he's had a really hard time staying

healthy. So now you're going to invest in him and you traded a first round pick for him. You traded a first round pick for Jalen Phillips, or you used a first-arm pick on Jalen Phillips. Emmanuel Agba is under contract for a lot of money next season. Emmanuel Agba, I believe, has the highest cap hit on the dolphins next year. I think it's still even higher than Tyree kills because his shoots up two years from now. So it's a lot invested in that position group. I do think the pieces fit together up front, though.

I think what they can do with these guys is pretty awesome. Because what Bradley Chubb has done, and honestly what Phillips has done, a lot of their damages lining up inside, twists, stunts, just different kinds of havoc-reaking nonsense. And those pieces all fitting together, I think, is very cool. Andrew Van Ginkle plays a lot of rundowns for them, so I assume they're still going to want him to be a part of that overall equation. He's a really good run defender going back and watching them today.

But does this mean maybe Zach Seeler gets fewer pass-rush snaps? And you're using Chubb, Agba, Phillips, and Ingram, all at the same time. Just the different combinations in different ways they can play those guys is pretty interesting. So I get it on a football level. They're also blitzing a lot less on third down than you would think the dolphins are. They're 19th in blitz rate on third down. Half of their third down blitzes have been big blitzes, six or seven guys.

They've been awful on those plays. So maybe this allows you to take a step back in that area. I do think on a football level it makes sense. But I can understand a first round pick and where the dolphins are. right now, you having some reticence about whether this is worth it. You're trading a first round pick and you're giving a big contract. So you're not getting any discount. You're not getting any years off.

And I think the comparison. There's no surplus involved here. Right. Between the Rams and the dolphins here, even though I think in terms of the on-field fit of, hey, we're adding an edge rusher. It makes sense. There's differences here. When they traded for Jalen Ramsey, the Rams still had rookie years left.

When they traded for Marcus Peters, although they think, well, it's Markup's Peters. But when they traded for Brandon Cook, for example, he still had years. left on his rookie deal before they had to give him an extension. When they traded from Von Miller last year, the Rams paid extra to the Broncos to have Von Miller's contract Eden. So basically, they paid Von Miller the minimum. And that's not the case here with this trade. The trade that's closest to is the Khalil Mack deal, where, yes, it's not as much, but it's

also for not anywhere near as accomplished of a player as Kalil Mack was when the Bears traded two first-arm picks to acquire him a couple of years. years ago. I also think that the landscape of the NFC when the Rams made that deal and the landscape of the AFC now are very different. Oh, yeah. Right? I mean, like you just said, are the dolphins better today after making that deal than the bills or the chiefs? I still think no. I still think no. And I think there's times where I would say, maybe you could talk me into it. I don't think I could be talked into the dolphins having that level of a roster. And you mentioned the opportunity cost earlier. That's the big thing here is that now you don't have a first-round pick to go use on another offensive lineman,

which frankly they still need, or depth elsewhere on your roster. You don't have that first-drawn pick to trade for a player at a different position, which maybe they would need. And I think what this trade also tells us is that they're sticking with Tua, which is obviously not unwarranted, given how he's played this year. But I think the last vestige of the idea that, oh, they might need to save this pick in case they need a quarterback, I think that's out the window now. And again, I don't think there's an issue with that, but I think that's just a piece of information that comes out of this trade where maybe they wouldn't have made this deal if they weren't as confident about Tua after his start of the season. Yeah, I mean, Tua is going to be and should

be their quarterback next year. So that part, I totally understand. If you're Chris Greer, I'm sure you're looking at this and saying, we are going to make the playoffs. We feel very good about our chance of making the playoffs this year. This gives us more teeth for potentially making a run in the playoffs. Even if we're not as good as the bills, even if we're not as good as the chief's top to bottom, this gives us a better shot to do damage when we get to the postseason than it would without Bradley Chubb. Whether that's worth a first round pick and a contract extension, I think that's the

conversation worth having. Right. I'm saying I don't think it is. And I think... I probably agree with you. But then again, to play devil's advocate, is there a better player who was likely to be available? Not at that position, man. At any position, if the dolphin said, hey, we are trading a first-round pick, what is the best player we can get in return for this?

For our roster, our needs, is there anybody who they were likely to be able to get out there? Probably not. not with the way that Bradley Chubb is playing, not with the position in question. The Broncos are in such a weird circumstance right now, but we'll get to them in a second. They're in such a weird position right now. I would probably say no.

I think that a player of this caliber and this talent, this pedigree, where he was drafted, all of that, really the only issue with him has been staying on the field. But he's been on the field this year, and he's been very, very good. So the answer to that is no. Sure.

And from the Broncos perspective, I mean, I would say the emergence of Baron Browning as a terrifying pass rusher makes this an easier deal to make for them, even independent of the fact that their season is in the toilet. Yeah, and you've also just committed to Randy Gregory financially, like the amount you'd have to pay him and Chubb combined next year when you've got Russell Wilson making what Russell Wilson's making. You've already handed out some receiver extensions, all that kind of stuff. It makes sense to me. The one area on their roster where I think they had a surplus was edge rusher. If you can get a first round pick for that guy and recoup some draft assets when you don't have any, I understand it from Denver's perspective every single time.

And you can get a running back. It's what really matters here. Are you surprised they didn't do more? Like, are you surprised that they were not more aggressive in trying to trade other players? I mean, I think Judy would probably be the guy, right? Judy or Hamler, right? I mean, neither of them seem particularly happy or well fit to this offense. If you're the Bears, if you trade that second round pick for Jerry Judy or Chase Claypool, who would you rather have?

Probably Judy. But like, Chase Claypool's had one good season. Jerry Judy has not had a good NFL season. Like, we have to, I think, have that conversation about maybe Jerry Judy just is not that good. Right? Am I nuts? Yeah. I also just think the overall, like, moves that were made, like the Bears trading for Chase Claypool.

We didn't mention this in that section, but there aren't going to be, there isn't going to be the market that there was last off season. I don't think a receiver. That they're, I mean, obviously the types of AJ Browns and Tyreek Hills and Devante Adams, like that's a once in a lifetime sort of stretch. But I don't even think there's that many guys available that are one step down from that that are going to be available this spring. Do you think what's happened with those trades? Like, how do I want to frame this?

Like, the Hill trade has obviously been a hit. Like the Dolphids would make that trade 10 out of 10 times. The Devante Adams trade? Not sure quite as much. Like, do you think? think the wide variance in those trades makes it more likely we'll see more of them or less likely we'll see more of them in the future? I think more likely depending on the team's situation. Without the AJ Brown trade and the Tyreekill trade working, I don't know if the bears are

as motivated as they are to go trade for Chase Claypool because the dolphins and the Eagles are in the exact same position as the bears are with we need to surround our young quarterback with pieces in order to get the most out of him and to see if he is a guy worth building around moving forward. So I think for teams in that situation that need answers about their guy and are going to do everything they can to surround him with talent, more of those trades will happen. But I think that's why there's a difference between the Devante Adams trade and those two trades. Yeah. And I think The other thing that comes to mind here is that we have seen teams with middling. Not middling.

I'm alluding to the Giants here. Not the Eagles, but we've seen teams with either good quarterback situations that got better or middling quarterback situations that got better, turn things around quicker than I think people expected. I mean, the Eagles were a laughing stock at the end of the 2020 season. They're now 7 and 0. Maybe they have the scariest roster in football, certainly the scariest roster in the NFC. The Giants have been lucky this year, yes, but they are six and two and are going to be a

playoff team this year after kind of being left for dead as recently as December of last season. The Seahawks were seemingly going into a rebuild. They're in first place in the NFC West. The Falcons were a mess heading into the season. They're in first place in the NFC South. To me, I think, for a team like the Bears, that kind of looks like they're years away, I think all those teams turning things around pretty quickly might lead them to be more aggressive than a team would have been in the past because they can see how quickly things can change for these teams. Also, think about where the NFC North is right now.

We'll talk about the Hawkinson trade here in a second. What are the Packers going to look like next year? Is Aaron Rogers going to be on the Packers next season? What are the Vikings going to look like next year? The Vikings are fine. The Vikings are just not getting in their own way. And that's why they're six and one. We still haven't figured out on this show whether the Vikings are going.

or not. Has any six-and-one team been disrespected more than the Vikings? Like the dolphins are five and three. You tell me right now. Are the Minnesota Vikings good? I did not say I had an answer to this question. I just said that. I think like the jets are five and three. They've beaten four backup quarterbacks and people are like thrilled about the jets. I'm not thrilled about the jets. Their quarterback sucks. And the Vikings are six and one. Their quarterback is okay. They are like, I think they're like a 65% chance. They're going to have one of the top two seeds in the NFC. And yet we're all kind of like, maybe, I don't know.

It's so funny to me. If the dolphins are in the NFC, how do you feel about the Bradley Chop trade? I like it more. I know that much. I still don't think they're better than the Eagles, but are the dolphins the third, second? They're kind of like the closest equivalent to them is probably Dallas, right? they're so different. Those teams are so, so different.

I mean, the Cowboys have, the Cowboys' defense has carried them for most of this season. I don't know how much you want to rely on that moving forward, right? We've seen teams that are built that way run into some issues. I am bullish on the Cowboys' offense moving forward. You're actually wrong. The Cowboys are built on Ezekiel Elliott Mays. Just ask Jerry Jones, they'll tell you.

I think that the way the dolphins are built, where you have all of that juice and all of that firepower, the variance associated with what the dolphins can be, I think makes them particularly dangerous, I guess is what I would say. For sure. And that's why investing in pass rush and just pure gasoline in your receiving core, I think is the best way to have a fluky outcome in your favor in a weird season. I'm trying to trace the dolphins decision made.

Right. We know the dolphins can win a shootout with anybody. I think that's fair to say at the very least. Yeah, and I think that's okay. I think if you want to say, we think we can put up 35 in any game, and we think that we're going to invest in pass rush and create a couple weird takeaways.

And that's going to be our recipe to potentially surprise some people and maybe steal this thing in a year where we're not supposed to. I get that line of thinking, even if it's a little bit risky. But that's also kind of the same formula that cowboys have, right?

Like, their defense is better. Their defense is not just like kind of average with great takeaway ability. their defense is great altogether. But, like, the Cowboys win games because they can create takeaways and their offense is good. And, like, not quite as good as the Dolphins. Yeah, I want to know what the Cowboys' offensive ceiling is. I don't think we've seen that yet.

They beat up a Bears team that the Bears felt like 15 spots in defensive TVOA after that Cowboys game. They beat that Bears team and they beat the Lions. So, again, I'm bullish on what the Cowboys offense could look like with this current formula, but I still want to see it. I feel pretty comfortable saying the dolphins can do this in most situations. So I think that's the difference there. I just have more faith in the dolphin's ability to put up 35 on anybody. Now, do you have any faith in the Minnesota Vikings to do anything on a given week? All right.

So you said earlier during the show that the T.J. Hawkinson trade and the Bradley Chub trade are very different to you. So how are you categorizing this? That was so long ago. I don't know how you could expect you to remember what I said an hour ago about two, trades. I need the context for that, miss. When we were trying to figure out why these teams might be voted to make these deals, so there are more teams in it.

And so I thought you meant the Vikings are six and one. They're in it right now. They think that this Hawkinson deal is worth doing because the NFC is wide open. Is that not how you're thinking about this? Not really, no. I think for the Vikings,

T.J. Hawkinson is kind of a bet on a couple things in the long term, the short and the long term, I would say. So yes, obviously, they do need a tight end. Irv Smith suffered a high ankle sprain. Sounds pretty bad. Reports have been that he's going to be out for a couple months. So obviously for a team that is six and one, again, they need a starting tight end, and that is fine. Where I think this trade hits for the Vikings is with a couple things. I think number one, the draft picks involved are going to be in their favor. Quasi Adolph-Menza was the guy in San Francisco who was working, one of his many duties there, was working with the draft value charts, making trades, which, by the way, don't make a trade with that guy that involves draft picks.

Like, he's probably done more research into it than you guys have, just my recommendation to NFL GMs. But they're trading what is likely going to be a late second-round pick. they're probably getting what is likely to be an early fourth round pick. Lions have the number one pick in the league right now, if I'm not mistaken. So this is probably going to be less draft compensation than it might seem, according to Chase Stewart's chart. I think this is like a pick in the late third round in terms of the actual draft capital being given up here for Hawkinson. But I think more than that, it's a bet on the gap between the tight end market and the wide receiver market. I was talking about this with Doug Kai. on my show. And Hawkinson, who is okay, I don't know that he's a great player, but certainly a good player, made a pro bowl a couple years ago, is going to make about $10 million over the next two years. His fifth year option is next year. After that, if the lion, if the Vight Lion, the Viking signed him to an extension this offseason, he's probably getting about $15 million a year, which is Alan Robinson and Corey Davis money for a wide receiver. I think,

tight end as a position is extremely undervalued right now, and in a way that edge rusher certainly is not or ever going to be. And so when you're thinking about what roster you're building and where you're spending money on veteran players, especially that now that you're going to be spending probably got $28 million a year on Justin Jefferson after this season, like spending that much money on a tight end as opposed to a second wide receiver makes sense to me. Not just for this Vikings team that is going to make the playoffs and probably lose in the first round, but for the next Vikings team. For the Vikings team that's going to have probably a rookie quarterback, either next offseason or the offseason after, added to this roster in case of Kirk Cousins. For a Vikings team that's not going to have Adam Thielen on the roster after this season, that might not have Delvin Cook on the roster after this season, that has Alexander Madison and Irv Smith both becoming unresistant.

restricted free agents after this season. I think for Hawkinson, who's still pretty young, still on his rookie deal, I think this is a move about the next three or four years, not just what he does for them this season. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, especially at least for the next two years, this season and next season, and we'll see what they do on an extension. I also think that this isn't like, even if Irv Smith was on the roster, this is still probably a deal worth making. Yeah, that's fair. Right? I mean, like, Irv Smith is, he was their starting tight end because they didn't really have anybody else. Irv Smith has been one of the worst tight ends in the league in yards per route run against man coverage this year.

The Vikings see man coverage at the fourth highest rate in the league on third down. T.J. Hawkinson is a pretty useful player against man coverage. Like, even with Irv Smith, this gives them another receiving option that I think they needed based on how teams are playing against them. teams are daring them to win one-on-one matchups that don't involve Justin Jefferson. And this gives them one more guy to do it. They can do that this year. They can do that next year depending on who the quarterback is. So on that side, I agree with this.

So I don't know. I think it makes sense for Minnesota in the short term and in the long term. I'm totally fine with it on both sides, especially if Detroit's not going to pay him. Let me ask you a question. If T.J. Hawkinson was T.J. Davis and he was a fourth round pick, Do you think we talk about him the same way as we do about T.J. Hawkinson, the eighth overall pick? I don't. I don't know if you do. I mean, I think he's good. But like he's eighth in route. He was eighth in yards per route run in 2020, eighth in 2021 and 13th so far this season, most of which came, frankly, in a game and a half. So I think he's a good player. But I think where he was drafted definitely impacts the perception of the

tight end he's going to be when we don't have a lot of evidence that he's ever going to be you know a Travis Kelsey or a George Kittal or a Mark Andrews type player. That's kind of what I mean from Minnesota's perspective here. So he's making $9 million in the final year of his deal next year. So you traded what will amount to probably a third round pick for $9 million with the T.J. Hawkinson next year. And then if you're going to extend T.J. Hawkinson, he's probably going to want north of what Njoku got, which is 13 and a half million per year. Yeah, I said 15, I think is where he'll land on a new deal. So you'd want to do that if you're Minnesota?

I think you'd want to do that because that's going to be better than paying a second wide receiver. And I, again, but you just said that you don't think T.J. Hawkinson is good. I think T.J. Hawkinson is good. I don't think he's a number one, like, all-pro caliber tight-in. Now, he can still be a good player and not be that guy. Like, you can be Dallas Goddard and still be a valuable part of an offense. But I think the expectation for Hawkinson coming into the pros was that he was going to be a top three tight end. And I don't know that he has that as a likely outcome for him after seeing the first few years of his career. I think I'd rather be on Detroit's side of this deal than Minnesota's. Really?

Yeah. Interesting. Why? I think that 2023 second, I understand that there's other picks involved, but I think getting that 2023 second, which will probably be what, if Minnesota makes the playoffs. 50-54? If you're not going to pay Hawkinson anyway, which I don't think they probably were going forward, I mean, I think it's totally fine from Detroit side. But I can understand if you're in Minnesota, why you would want this right now.

I mean, for next year, we'll see. But for right now, I do think he helps their offense. I think it's more short-term than you think it is based on the way that you're thinking and talking about this. I mean, frankly, you're probably right. Like, you know me. I want to think of like this grandiose idea that makes sense. And they probably spoke up and were like, shit, We need a tight end. We should go trade for one.

And apparently the Vikings are only allowed to make trades within the NFC North. So they called up the good teams in the NFC North. And that was the deal they got done. Cole Commet apparently was not available to the Vikings. I think part of this is just the unknown about the Hawkinson deal and what it looks like even a year from now is what the Vikings quarterback situation is going to be. And whether or not Kirk Cousins is going to be there next year. Does the fact that this trade happened make you think? that it's more likely that they're moving on from him sooner rather than later?

You think they're just going to have some money freed up? Potentially by going to get a rookie quarterback. But here's the thing. Are they going to be in a position to draft a rookie quarterback? They're dealing away second round picks to go get T.J. Hawkinson. I mean, if they're going to make the, hey, we're trading three first round picks away to move up, which, you know, teams have done stranger things for quarterbacks. That, too, I think they can still make a deal.

It's going to be harder for sure. but I guess maybe they get something back for Kirk if they trade him. He does have a, he has no trade clause on this most recent extension he signed, but he does have the sort of deal where they could trade him and only end up with about $17 million in dead money. And I understand that the idea of trading for Kirk Cousins might not seem that exciting to you. I will remind you that Carson Wentz was traded twice in the last two years for significant draft capital. And Kirk Cousins is better than Carson. There are at least five teams that would want Kurt Cousins next offseason. At least five. If the Colts could trade for Carson Wentz right now, they would be, Jim Ursey would trade every one of his classic guitars to acquire Kurt Cousins right now if he could. All right. Let's hit these other ones really quickly.

William Jackson goes to the Steelers, late-round pick swap. He's making $9 million next year. They can cut him if they want to. Feels like a worthwhile dice roll for Pittsburgh. It does. The Steelers suck. They're not going anywhere. They don't, they already get him.

They're paying a lot of money, though, no? They get a half-season rental for him, and if he's not good, they can cut him this off-season. What good is a rental for a team that's going nowhere? You see if he's worth keeping around next year. They, he was going to get cut if they didn't, they could just pick him up for free. Like, they could pick him up in the off-season on a much smaller deal. Like, this is like getting, it's like renting a video game for the wrong system from

Blockbuster, May. He's like, I don't, I don't, this is the wrong time to make that kind of move. Yep, I think that's fair. Okay. Nah, you swayed me. I think that's fine. Nahim Hines to the Bills. What do we think?

Man, the Bills do not want to play James Cook in passing downs, huh? Apparently not. The Bills have tried to figure out this passing down back thing for the last like nine months. And it took three dice rolls for them to get here. Duke Johnson's on their practice squad. How bad could he be? It's fine. If you're the Bills, you gave up a.

six-round pick and Zach Moss to go do this, right? I understand it. Like, this is the year. Like, if you think Neheme Heinz adds enough to your offense where potentially it puts you over the top, it just doesn't really matter about value to me right now. For sure. And I mean, I think if anything,

it's more of a surprise that the Colts wanted Zach Moss back as part of this deal. I think they just needed another running back. I mean, Dion Jackson looked pretty good. No? The Colts are entirely different conversation. I don't even want to start talking about the Colts again. Yeah, imagine how Zach Moss must feel. Like you're playing for the best offense in football. Now you're going to the cults where like basically the entire season is just sim to end of season mode. Like, that can't feel good.

All right. The last thing I want to talk about here, we talked about the Roquan deal with Mike Sando yesterday. Nate and I are going to dig into the schematics of that during our weekly preview. The last thing I want to chat with you about was the Brian Burns news that I believe Alvert Breer reported that the Panthers turned down two first round picks from, I believe, leave the Rams for Brian Burns. What do you think of this from both sides? Let's, which side do you want to start with? Let's start with the Rams side. Okay. This is a very Rams trade, right? I mean, trading two first round picks, which would have been,

they'd have to trade 24 and 25. Do they have their 2023 first round pick? No. No, they do. No, they don't. They traded their first stafford. They traded a 2022 and a 2023, not a 2021 and a 222? That's correct.

What happened to their 2021 first round pick? Wasn't that Ramsey? Jesus. I mean, they won a Super Bowl, man. I'm not saying that it's how I'm saying it's hard to keep track of where all of these first round picks are going from them. One of the craziest things is that the last first round pick the Rams used is on Jared Gough. I know, I know. They use multiple first round picks on him.

So this would be their 2024 and 2025 first round picks for Brian Burns. Yes, correct. From, I mean, for the Rams, they do need a pass rusher. Like, they have missed von Miller and this is the exact sort of player they go after. Guy who is a superstar, still very young, even relative to other players from his draft class, still pretty young. Right. And I mean, he is an incredible player.

not a lot of you, thankfully for your sake, are watching a lot of Panthers tape. Brian Burns is an awesome, awesome football player. He was awesome. He's a personal favorite. He is a football nerds,

like among the condescenti, whatever the word is, people love Brian Burns with good reason. He would be a superstar on the Los Angeles Rams. It makes a lot of sense for the Rams, but... Does it though?

Well, it makes sense in terms of... They need an edge. rusher, I'm just not sure if it's the biggest thing they need right now. Yeah, I think this makes sense for the Rams more in the abstract. Like, as a process decision. Yes. In terms of roster building philosophy, it's like we are going, Jordan Roderick's been talking about this all day.

We are going to invest in these four or five things because we think they're worth investing in. This becomes the J-1 Ramsey trade for a pass-rusher if you're the Rams. but I think that they're far enough away from contention as currently constructed that we're adding a pass-rower. To me, it's more about adding a pass-rusher as an idea than it is adding a pass-rusher to the core of players they currently have. Does that make sense? I think they need a pass-rrrrisher in that core of players more than you're making it out to be. Oh, they do think-

One. Does it change the impact possible with this core of players? like if Brian Burns is on the Rams does it change their fortunes in the next 12 months based on all the other things that the Rams need I mean probably not but they also just won a Super Bowl

like it's weird to me to think that we're just kind of right in them off as beyond repair after what happened last season you might not be wrong you might not be wrong either I kind of think that like the current construction of the Rams is like beyond repair I think that we're in like

what is the next phase of this look like if you were the Rams. Everyone should have retired is what you're saying. By the time, maybe that's overstating it. I think it depends on what you think of Matthew Stafford and like how close to the cliff we think Matthew Stafford is physically. I mean, yes. But what I'm also going to say is that Matthew Stafford wasn't playing all that well last

season and they still won a Super Bowl with him. Like you threw two interceptions in the Super Bowl and they still won. it's not like he was playing like Patrick Mahomes last year in the second half of the season and into the playoffs. And then he's taken a major step backwards this year. He's kind of been just a slightly worse version of that guy from the playoffs a year ago. Yeah, I think that's probably fair. In my thought, it's like, are they, what do they look like in 2023 with Brian Burns and the other pieces that they have and whatever guys, they'd be able to add this off season? Like, it kind of feel, I mean, they still don't have a lot of. financial flexibility. It's always funny.

So you look at over the cap or one of those places, you look at like 24 cap space. And it's always like $180 million or whatever it is because they project the cap going up and people don't have contracts signed that far in advance. The Rams have $7.5 million in 2024 cap space, which is impossible. It's absolutely hilarious.

So in my mind, it was like, all right, you're doing this as a way to kind of jump. or build the foundation, whatever the next phase of your team looks like. So now you, it's, again, it's the Jalen Ramsey trade for a past rusher where it's like, all right, these are our building blocks and these are kind of our foundational pieces for this rebamp version of ourselves. But they could probably get back into the mix with it, Brian Burns and a couple other moves as soon as next year if you think Matthew Stafford is going to stay competent.

I don't agree with you. Like Jordan made this point on my podcast, and she said, you know, like the Rams contention window is how long do we have Aaron Donald. I'll extend that to how long do we have Aaron Donald and Sean McVeigh, because I think those are the two most important people in this organization. But I think

the Rams were making this move thinking, we probably have two, three years left with Aaron Donald and Sean McVeigh before we retire. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I think Brian Burns is a guy who was going to make an impact his best years are going to be probably those three years.

You can be a little more flexible. You can get someone a little older than that, I think. But I think given, like you said, their financial inflexibility, given what they've done with draft picks in the past, I think that was probably the move where they said, okay, this is what's going to make our team better right now because they have no choice. Like if Stafford's not that dude,

they're screwed either way. Like, there's no alternative for them. So I think that's why they need. watching their offense right now and being so, so concerned about like the foundation and the offensive line and their inability to function that it's hard for me to picture a world where they're like back and clicking offensively. And a guy like Brian Burns even matters. But that's probably closer that I'm giving it credit for right now.

I mean, do you think their offense is beyond hope for the rest of the season? I think it's going to be really hard. You might be right. I mean, they are really... Based on the state of their offensive line, I think it's going to be really hard. And just the lack of juice they have. I mean, like the Alan Robinson thing and what he looks like right now and just the overall lack of speed and pop and the running game and how bad that is, I just don't see it getting back on track by the end of this season. With one more offseason and some health along the offensive line, all of that, maybe you could make that argument.

And that's why Brian Burns in 2023 makes more sense. Well, what would it have taken? Like, should they have just offered like five first round picks for? Brian Burns and DJ Moore and just tried to get every good Panthers player to fix their roster. Less than you just being like this is going to be somebody else's problem. I mean, but that's what it is though, right? Like, like, that's, that's the reality of it. Like, they should be maximized.

They're all in. Nothing more with being all in. Just if you're going to be all in, you have to actually be all in. Maximize your moves to win right now. And, yeah, suck for a couple of years. But Rams fans aren't going to care in 2026. From the Panthers perspective, I think this is as simple as if you're the owner, whoever's making those decisions, Scott Fitterer, 2024 and 2025, first round picks don't matter much to you. Yeah, that's another example of those are going to be things other people are going to have to worry about.

Exactly. If you make this trade. Exactly. I alluded to the element of being able to turn things around quicker. than people might expect, given how bad things feel at the bottom with the Giants and the Eagles. I think the Panthers fit into that boat, there's enough talent here that if they do get the right quarterback and the right coach and the right GM, they're probably not firing Fitterer, but the right coach and the right quarterback, I think it could turn around pretty quickly.

Well, if you're Fitterer, and I totally agree with you, but if the 2023 season is awful and you've hired a new head coach and get a new quarterback, you're probably out of there. Right. So that's why Brian Burns matters much more to Scott Fitterer in the next year than a 2024 and 2025 first round pick that he probably won't be making if the Panthers are really bad next year. That's not even a conversation. I totally understand it from his perspective.

Even in a vacuum as a team building thing, you'd rather take the two first round picks. So leave Fidderer out of it. Let's say David Tapper is on the phone with Stan Cronky and they're negotiating the this trade. If it's 23 and 24 first round picks, if you're a tepper, do you make this trade? It's a great question. I think what you're thinking about is which is more attractive to your head coach candidates. Would they rather have Brian Burns or a first round pick in 2023 and 2024? First off, they should just, they should offer Sean paid in 25 million dollars a year, right? Like, am I insane to think that's the one thing they have to do? They should do that.

what are the Saints going to demand in a trade to give Sean Payton to a team in the division? Brian Burns, maybe. I don't know. So, like, those are the other considerations. And if it's, if you want those extra first round picks, which is what it's going to take, maybe that is worth doing. But if it's 24 and 24 and 2025, then it's a different conversation. The other thing I would say in the big picture is, would you almost rather have a 2025 first round pick from the Rams? Because there's a chance that the ramps just suck and McVeves. In the big picture, you absolutely would.

But we're not dealing in big picture here. We're dealing with the short-term motivations of human beings involved in this entire equation. Oh, sure. But shouldn't the Panthers be thinking big picture? The Ravens make that deal a hundred times out of 100 because Eric DeCost is going to have this job until he doesn't want this job. Like organizational security is the reason you can make trades like Brian Burns for first round picks two and three years from now.

The Panthers have the opposite of that. So if the Rams say write us a blank check for Brian Burns, we need to make this deal, what would it have taken that's realistic for you as the Panthers to do this deal? I don't know. But that's the thing. It's like if it's a one in the three, like, is that really going to make a difference for you? I don't think so because I think it's about your 2023 assets and what your 2023 team looks like. And the Rams were not in a position to help you in that way.

Right. I won't say I'm surprised that the Rams, even though they did not get this Burns deal done, that they did not go and do something else before the trade deadline. Like maybe it just means they're super confident they're going to land O'Dell, but they have so many issues elsewhere on that roster. I'm surprised they didn't go and do more for the offensive line, getting a different edge rusher, help in the secondary. There's so many things they needed to add, and they didn't do any of it at the trade.

So that was the last thing I was going to ask you. What other teams that stood Pat or players that weren't moved were you surprised by? I'm going to throw this out there, Mayas. I don't know how you feel about it. I think the Green Bay Packers should have added a wide receiver. It's a bit at this point. They've got to be fucking with us. Isn't it? The point I made on Twitter when I was talking with our friend Mina Kimes was maybe the Packers just are on an Android phone and people aren't getting their texts. Like I, like you. Me, basically. I honestly. like in years past. In 2019, 2020 and 2021, they could make the argument of, hey, we are good. We're 13 and 3.

We're 13 and 3. We're 13 and 4. We have Devante Adams. We are great on offense. Our quarterback just went back-to-back MVP's. We do not need to make a trade. You cannot make that case anymore. This offense is tough to watch.

They are 3 and 5. They're struggling to move the ball. they just on the sheer we need a spark perspective they could justify making a trade and so if if the reporting from joseina anderson about their interest in chase claypool which makes sense for both sides if that trade didn't happen i'm shocked they did not have a plan b or a another trade for someone even if it wasn't a a significant player just someone to try and help this offense like you said it feels like a bit. It feels like we're missing something that they know that doesn't add up. You think there's any part of them that doesn't know what's going to happen with Rogers and

Gukun's is saying they're sitting there being like, why am I going to give away draft picks when the quarterback might not even be here next year? Because the guy replacing him also needs help at receiver. Jordan Love. Fair point. Jordan Love's not going to be good with Alan Lazard as his number one whiteout, right? This team also doesn't have a lot of financial flexibility, man. sitting here staring at $3.7 million in caps case for the Packers next year. Okay. Think about what?

Brandon Cooks is making $18 million. At a certain point, something's got to give. Okay. Okay. I'm going to ask you a question, and this is an unfair question. If you could inherit the Bears' entire roster and financial situation and traffic situation or the Packers right now, what would you rather do? I don't want to answer this because it's going to be embarrassing for me. You're catching me at a bad moment after the last two Justin Fields games.

That's why I'm asking you this question, Mays. Answer the question, please. I don't want to. That's where the show has to end then. I don't want to. If it's just the roster, it's still probably the Packers. Of course it is, but it's not just the roster. It's the cap space and the draft picks.

And the fact that there's not a black cloud hanging over your organization that you seem to have no interest in trying to clear up. If you had asked me this two weeks ago, I wouldn't even hesitate. And now I'm just like, but the funny part is, now the bears are in on Justin Fields too. Now the bears are dealing second round picks for Chase Claypool. So I, to wrap this up, the last thing I want to talk about, I actually called the Chase Claypool thing earlier this year. In August, so this is why I think it's funny. In August, I had an inkling that the Bears were going to try to make a move or receive. If you go back and listen to like our NFC North podcast, I said, I think that the room will look different.

soon than it does right now. I thought that meant in Killary. I thought it, Chase Claypool was the guy I was thinking about. You look at just the T leaves, right? Two years left on his deal. The Packers, or the Steelers drafted a receiver in the second round.

They drafted Calvin Austin. It's clear they were a little bit frustrated with him. There was some tension there. The Bears didn't end up doing that. What is different now than was in August? If it was a second round pick, right? If the asking price was the same, the bears have an extra second in the Roquechon trade, maybe that's part of it. But I do think that the glimpses you've seen from Justin Fields accelerate the bear's interest in giving him a chance in building around him.

I think that's probably fair. It is different now than it was on September 1st. Like how much faith you probably have in what Justin Fields can be. Would you say that's fair? No, not really. Like, if the Bears don't recover six fumbles in the Patriots game, do they not make this trade? I think they honestly made this trade because of the Roquan deal. I think the point of that.

I can see that. I think that's the biggest difference. I don't think the price for Claypool changed all that much. I don't think they could have credibly asked for a one. The Bears obviously had a need. And I think, obviously, yes, there have been moments, flashes from Justin Fields where he looks great. And I am still optimistic about his chances in a competent NFL offense, which he has not gotten to work with so far as a pro. But I don't think my feeling about him has changed all that much versus what I thought in September 1st.

As it changed for you? No, I guess the real question I'm asking is if you're people asking, why wouldn't you do this before? Like, why wouldn't you go make this move in August or in the off season? I do think the bears have more information about Justin Fields now than they had in August. That, I think, is undeniable. Right. And I think the other thing is, remember, the people who drafted Justin Fields are not around anymore. So I think there was a genuine evaluation process happening over the first two months, not only publicly, but I think even more importantly, privately, where it's okay, you know, how does Skype prep? How well is he fit within the idea of what we want to do on offense? How well is he adjust to, you know, all the stuff we throw at him over.

the course of the season. And I think that is definitely something that is actually happening more so behind the scenes than in front of the scenes. Yes. I think the amount of information gathered, even if it's not the last two games, it's the amount of information gathered over the last two months, I think makes it more palatable to make a deal like this. All right, that's enough Chase Claypool talk. Farwell, always good to talk with you, my friend. Really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Oh my God. That was an hour and a half. It was an hour and 20 minutes. It's a big day. We had to just talk. about it. It was a record setting trade deadline day. We had to dig into all that stuff.

Please tell the people where they can read and listen to all of the other thoughts you have about the trade deadline and all things NFL. ESPN, I guess. Yeah, that's where it is. Go towards ESPN. You'll find me eventually. All right, guys, that's all for today. Mike Sando and Randy Mueller will be coming your way on Thursday with the football GM. Please check that out. Also, if you have not subscribed to our YouTube channel, you can do that in the description of this podcast. Go click it. Go subscribe. We're doing a lot more video stuff this year.

We'll be doing our Thursday night football recap. Me and Nate breaking out Eagles, Texans, which is a hilarious Thursday night game. Also, please go leave a rating and review on the podcast if you enjoy it. Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen. We would sincerely appreciate that. Randy and Mike will be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon.

This was the Athletic Football Show.