The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL Week 5 recap — Parity reigns supreme, the NFC East is back, and more

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

We're just about through five weeks this NFL season. How many teams are we sure are legitimately good? Three? Four? Parity has been the story of these first five weeks, a topic Robert Mays and Nate Tice explore in depth on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys also discuss the resurgence of the NFC East, the confounding Minnesota Vikings, disappointment from the Jaguars and Lions, and more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube1:20 Parity reigns supreme10:01 The NFC East is back!31:00 Cause for concern in Green Bay36:45 What are the Vikings?50:40 Disappointed in the Jaguars55:50 Disappointed in the Lions, too62:20 A handful of questionable calls on Sunday69:00 What do we make of the Browns and Chargers?72:27 We See...the Jets rookies Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays, joining me tonight. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing very well. Amir Smith-Marset can fumble the football at the end of the game. Trevor Lawrence can throw an interception in the end zone,

and I'm still doing okay. You wonder why? Because the Seattle Mariners. Yes, because of the Seattle Mariners are going to the next round. I am okay. I'm doing great. actually. So yes, even with the interesting Sunday slate of action, I was in a giddy mood all day. It doesn't matter what my bets were, what my fantasy teams were doing, did not matter to

the sale of mariners are going to the next round. I wish I had that to lay back on. Unfortunately, I do not. Some of our favorites do not have a great Sunday. We'll get into all of that. We're going to talk about the Jags letting us down a little bit. Talk about the Lions letting everyone down. Everyone in the chat right now is very concerned about the state of the Detroit Lions, which I totally understand. They got blanked by a team led by Bailey, Zappie. We're going to talk about some questionable calls that happened over the course of this game. But I want to start with that Sunday night game as a way to get into a kind of larger conversation about where we are as a whole. Watching that Sunday night game, thinking about those two teams, thinking about the AFC North in general, thinking about most of the AFC outside of the Buffalo Bills and the Kansas City Chiefs tomorrow.

Is anyone good? Do we think anyone is good? You look at the league right now, a vast majority of it are stuffed somewhere between three and two. and two and three. Look at point differential. The bills lead the league in point differential at plus 91. The Eagles are at plus 47. So are the Niners.

After that, the Jacksonville Jaguars are the fifth best point differential in the NFL. They're two and three. Most of these teams are just somewhere in the middle right now. And it's hard to get that out of my mind as I watch another NFL Sunday where you're like, ah, I'm just kind of throwing my hands up because I'm not sure about any of this. Well, that's what even like when we do our pick segment, we're looking at the spreads. And I'm like, really? This team's getting seven?

This team's getting six and a half. This team's getting seven and a half because so many of these games, it really just feels like, all right, who's a little bit healthier? And who can get off to a better start and who can adjust, which is usually how the NFL is. But usually it's like, okay, that's about 10 teams in the league. And it's more like five, six good teams. Okay, five, six bad teams. Now it feels like there's like two good teams, two bad teams, everybody else. else is in the middle. So 28 teams feel about the same or maybe 27, give or take. But that's how it

feels. And I mean, this tonight's game was a perfect example of it. It's just if you don't get your chances, if you don't take advantage of your one chance, even with the Bengals kicking the extra point that was technically over the upright, like that's how it feels. Every game, it feels like it's coming down to one possession or one mistake. And that's how. One choice. And yes, it's any given Sunday, but usually that's one or two games, not all the games every single week. And now we're going to start in by weeks and the doubt resets a lot of team seasons, I guess, and see who can really adjust and focus in on what works for them. But man, through five weeks, it's just, this feels tight. Everything just feels so tight where you can remember one or two

plays where a team really botched it or took advantage of it. Think about what just happened in that game. The Bengals have that disastrous goal lines scenario where they run a reverse. and then they try to run a shovel pass. They end up getting stuff. The Ravens then have a fourth and one where if they go for it, they can put the game away. Instead, they kick a field goal. The Bengals come out, score a touchdown, take a one-point lead. All of these sliding doors moments just feel so incredibly important in all these games that are so, so tight.

And when you watch a lot of the league, when you watch tonight, and the Bengals and the Ravens are probably solid teams. But when you watch them play and then you watch a team like Buffalo play, I think very few teams, even if we don't think the Steelers are very, good are capable of putting a beat down on someone like the bills today against Pittsburgh there aren't that many teams that feel capable of trotting out that sort of firepower and being able to dominate in that fashion and I think that's why we're seeing these tiers start to emerge where you have Buffalo in Kansas City and maybe the Eagles even though they squeaked by today against Arizona where they can really manage that but everyone else probably falls somewhere in the middle and that's the prevailing thought I have about

the league in general after five weeks. And I think it feels even tighter because points are so hard to come by this year. Yes. And so that's where I think that's why it feels just so mucky and just so like everything feels sticky in the sense out of the scores. And then also just with how these teams like getting a first down and a important first down, like a third and four conversion, a third nine conversion feels like such an air like either a sigh of relief or the defense just their air coming out of their stomachs a little bit.

And I don't know. Usually you can point to two or three games on a Sunday, but really it's just feeling like, you know, especially with all 32 teams are playing. So it's 16 games a week that feels like double digits of these games are coming down to it. And I know that's what the NFL wants. They want the one score games. But a lot of these are scores. They're 20 to 17. They're very low scoring.

It's not a 38, 35 barn burner. I mean, we did get, we did get Seahawks Lions last week, which is a lot of fun. But it just feels like a lot more. the Seahawks play and there's going to be 70 points scored. But other than that, other than that, offense around the league tends to be depressed. I mean,

you're looking at this game, you have Joe Burrow and an offense that, you know, people were excited about coming into the season. Joe Burrow was 19th and EPA per dropback tonight. Lamar Jackson was 27th. And these are offenses that can't find themselves consistently. And I think that's true for a lot of offenses around the week. I mean, you have Josh Allen being able to make three or four alien throws.

Right. Over the course of that Bill's game in a pretty windy day and somehow still push. the ball downfield like that, averaging 10 yards of play somehow. But other than that, it still feels like a slog in a ton of these games. Even a lot of teams that I think are stacking together wins are doing it with defense. We'll talk about the Cowboys in a little bit. The Niners defense is obviously great, even though they're losing pieces now.

So it just feels like a lot of these scenarios are pretty fragile outside of like two or three teams. I mean, you watch that game and it's like, do you feel good about the Bengals right now? Do you feel good about the Ravens right now? I think it's hard to feel good about either of them. And they're probably, who's the best team in that division? You could name one of three teams probably. And you could go that route in a lot of different divisions right now. And that's just kind of how it feels.

Everything feels really condensed, really jumbled up. And I'm sure a couple teams will kind of shake loose at some point over the next month or so here. But for the most part, that has not happened yet. And that's what's funny. It's like the Browns almost feel like the cleanest team, especially on offense. and it's with Jacoby Brissette and a defense that can't stop the run. They can't stop anybody. And but when I watch their offense, I'm like, okay, this seems sustainable because

like the Ravens is just like, hey, Lamar, go, go do stuff. And then the Bengals is kind of like burrow and then hopefully get some holding penalties on Jamar Chase or something of that sort. Like, so these, I don't know, it's just the consistency. I think that's really what it is, is everything feels very high and low for every team. There's going to be a couple teams we talk about tonight. That's where it feels. And the AFC North is like a perfect little snapshot of that, that every team, they have so these amazing moments.

Like you see Burrow throwing a dig route to T. Higgins. Oh, my God, it looks beautiful. You see Lamar doing Lamar things, throwing to Mark Andrews on the move or just creating his own stuff in the run game. It looks amazing. And then you watch several two, three, four drives in a row. You're like, what was that? And that's crazy. There's so many teams that I watch that it's just not just offense defense as well.

You're like, what are you doing? And it could be injuries. it could be, but it also could just be, that's what the league is right now. It's just a lot of no one feels complete. And people are going to knock it on like, oh, okay, it's some training camp and not being in pads. We're in week five. No, if this was week two, week three, maybe I'd say that. But we're in week five.

We just start seeing these kind of images start taking shape with these teams. And it still feels like a lot of teams are trying to find their way. Offense is more consistent than defense. We know that. When the league limits elite offense and when the league lacks elite offensive units, inconsistency is going to creep in. And that's where we are right now. There just aren't really elite offenses in the NFL if you look at it top to bottom.

You've got a couple that are playing really well. But for the most part, we've been missing those. And I think that's why that inconsistency has crept up. And I think it's going to keep being that way. We've got some couple marquee games next weekend. But for the most part, it's really hard to rely on one or two teams week in and week out right now. And it's who with the two best teams that we're talking about right now, they have good defenses. Like the Chief's defense is playing well.

They're about mid-level DVOA right now. But it's really the quarterbacks are playing the best. It's Josh Allen Mahomes. And okay, yes, it's going to be a quarterback-driven league, but you see these other teams with good quarterbacks that are kind of up and down. But, I mean, Josh Allen today, he's throwing a whole shot to the field into the wind. And then he's making a free runner miss. So these mistakes that defenses are making other teams make,

their room for error is just so huge that they create explosive plays when it should be a negative. So, I mean, there's even the Bill say had a field goal. blocked, I believe, terrible return to start the game. Josh Allen throws a pick in the end zone and they win by several scores. Like that's, and that's the only team I could say in the league that I feel can overcome that. The chiefs had a special team's blemish game against the Colts a couple of weeks, a couple weeks ago. And they almost overcame it, but they didn't. And so it's kind of crazy that we're in this place that even the teams that we consider elite any given Sunday. That's just kind of how it's going to feel this year. I mean, it's awesome. It's entertaining. But it's also like,

going to make my lose my hair because there's no narratives for me. There's nothing that I can just latch on to. It's just going to change week to week, which is a lot of fun, but it's going to be crazy. I think weekend, week in, week out. All right. We're going to talk about a division that actually is playing pretty well with you have my attention. Gentlemen, you have my curiosity. Now you have my attention.

All right. We're talking about all these teams and divisions that can't win any games. And now we have an NFC East that has a 5 and 0 team and 2, 4 and 1 teams. the NFC East you have my attention goodness gracious the only division where anybody can win a game apparently so and like only their losses are against each other too it's like yes they're just beaten up on other teams and it's not i mean yes okay we thought the eagles would be a solid team but as soon as dac went down with the cowboys i was like all right well that was fun like that was okay good run that you guys are going to have and they're four and one like what is this and of course

yeah and then of course we're going to talk about the giants in the sec as well but yeah this is This is just pretty, pretty crazy. We're not going to dig into the Eagles really tonight. They won a squeaker against Arizona. We're going to talk about that game tomorrow on the Monday Hangover with me and Deontay. If you guys want to come back and check out that conversation, I want to figure out why the Eagles struggled to move the ball a little bit. I was locked into a couple of those other games in the late slate. That includes the Cowboys and the Rams.

Like you just alluded to, I've talked about this a bunch of times in the last couple weeks. I had the Cowboys dead in the water after Dak got hurt. I just thought that they would fall off a little bit on defense. I didn't trust them being able to sustain who they were last year without the same turnover production. And their defense has been absolutely terrifying. And now they're four and one. And they're right in the mix of this. The Rams offense was barely functional for most of that game.

Outside of the one deep shots to 2 out well and the 75-yard touchdown a cup, which obviously big plays count. But play in and play out, they struggled mightily to move the ball in this game. You could just feel how kind of unsettled they were before every single play where they're just hanging on for dear life. And that's kind of what it feels like when you're playing against the Cowboys right now. I mean, this is the most, I feel like Stafford I've ever seen like create in the pocket. Like he's like spinning around and moving. He had to. It's out necessity.

Yeah. And honestly, Deontay crushed it on our Thursday pod and talking about why the Cowboys defense. And like just the little schematic tweaks like Dan Quinn's running a lot of cover two now. and just like just understanding what his strengths of the defense is. But it is so cool to watch this defense and just follow. Honestly, watching the Cowboys defense is like just follow where number 11 is. And that's how that's where the creativity. It might not be the post snap stuff isn't as crazy.

There's not a ton of exotic stuff. But where they put the guys is what pre-snap is the change up. And I think that's what's so cool is watching this Cowboys defense is just watch where Michael Parsons is. But man, this Rams offense, man, negative. juice. I mean, they have no juice on this team. They have to put two, two out well in there to get anything to lift the top off the defense. That's the only way that they can push the ball down the field. And I mean, like, I just looked it up too. There's 43 running backs with 30 more carries

this year. Kmakers and Darrell Henderson are bottom five in adjusted yards after contact. They're not creating anything with the ball. So even when they do have a nice run game and they're trying everything today. I mean, they, they, they're trying everything. The Rams were. I mean, even just like even the play action game, they're trying to just window dress it as much as they could, but oh my God, it's just they can't hold up. Stafford, if he has to come off his first read, any quarterback that plays this Cowboys defense comes after the first read, you're playing with fire. It's rushing roulette.

It's like, who's going to hold up? I have five guys that have to hold up against these freaks that are coming at me. And oh, my God, they just, all the games they're coming, that coming at them, just everything they play, everything's so aggressive with this defense. And it's really, really fun to watch. But as a quarterback, I'm sure it's just terrifying. And that's how Stafford had to play today. He had to throw like a diving catch down Robinson.

It's like that's not how you want to create yards as an offense. They had a 47.5% pressure rate without blitzing in this game. Oh, God. When they were bringing four. And that's how it felt. I mean, DeMarcus Lawrence Landau for regard, Dorrance Armstrong, making plays while wind up inside. He's a nice player, by the way. He is?

And that's, they've become this type of unit up front where the guys start coming out of the woodwork, the way the Niners have been like over the last five years. The ranch defense a couple of years. And that's what happens. When you kind of build this little ecosystem of pressure and mindset and the way that you play up front, the guys start to pop a little bit. You have a Dante Fowler play here and there. You have a Dorrance Armstrong or DeMarcus Lawrence.

Tristan Hill had a TFL today. Sam Williams had a TFL on a play before, but now you're looking at second and 18. That's the problem is every time they started to get something going on the ground, it just got totally short-circuited. You want to know how many yards before contact, the RAMs, average today on the ground before contact. 0.13. 0.13 yards before contact.

They can't run the ball. They can't block anybody. They average 2.5 3 yards per carry over the course of the game, but even that isn't indicative of how bad it was. Outside of those two long plays, the Rams hit in the passing game, Stafford averaged 4.48 yards per attempt. It's a product, some of the Cowboys defense being incredibly good right now, but the Rams offense is also pretty

broken. 11 QB hits today, Stafford. I mean, he's already banged up and he's just taking all those hits. Somebody said that like he's going to be on the injury report and they'll just say all. Like they won't even say arm. That's how it feels right now. It's just say all. But even like and the Rams, okay, Rams last year in the offense,

we gushed about the empty stuff and all the chip help stuff and you couldn't blitz them and all that. But they would hold up anyways, which I always thought was so cool is today on some of their third longs, they were locking in the running back in protection. So they're basically saying, not even if you blitz. So like, okay, sometimes the runback gets caught going like, if somebody got coming and then he doesn't release on the route, they were literally just saying you stay in there. So if somebody comes free, you help out, which is like,

that means you're playing a hand down. You're playing a card down before the play even gets going because then the guys have to win down the field. You're getting one less body out in the routes. And that's kind of indicative of what the Cowboys defense is doing, but also where this Rams offense is at. They're like, we don't trust our guys to hold up. Hey, just hang in there.

That's what college teams do. That's what the Steelers offense does because they have a college offensive coordinator. So that's the kind of stuff that they do. They're like, screw it. We're not going to sort it out. You're just hanging there and take a charge. And the fact that the Rams are doing that, who I've always thought have a good protection plan, man, that's just speaking to where they're at in this 2020 and week five. We're in October.

It's like, oh, boy, just get to the biweek. And hopefully you can regroup. All you need to know about where the Cowboys are, where the Rams are, and where the NFL is is, is the Cooper. rush through for 102 yards in this game and there was never a question about who was going to win. They had 10 first downs. They had 10 first downs today. And they controlled the game the entire way through. Without a

doubt. It's insane. It's crazy to watch a game like that and just never feel like the other team is threatening when your offense can barely move the ball. But that's where we are. All right. While we're on the topic of the NFC East here, the New York Giants, you have my attention. The Giants are 4 and 1. We've talked about the Giants a little bit.

Talked about the Giants offense on the Thursday preview show. Here's what I will say about the Giants. I was treating them like a fun little oddity with the ways that they were moving the ball on defense, on offense, with the play action stuff that they were using and the Wildcat and all of that. Yeah. I was legitimately impressed today. It went beyond some fun little oddity to the point that I was like, you know what? I was incredibly impressed with the way that they played.

No one at Williams, Dori Jackson gets hurt at some point. in the game. They have non-NFL wide receivers. Daniel Jones is hurt coming into it. Saquan Barkley missed a chunk of time in this game. And they still managed to beat a Packers team that we'll talk about how flawed they are. But I also want to give the Giants credit for the way that they play today. And there's just the way that they played over the course of the season so far.

When we talked this morning, I kind of I push back at you real quick. I was like, but we got to talk about how the Packers are just not nothing. But rewatching this game and watching it a hole. That's the thing. I get caught in the moment too. And I'm watching it live. And I'm like, oh, well, this happened and this happened. But man, we, that's the thing.

With this, this giant staff, they, I'm going to talk about the players in a sec, but this staff, it's a well regarded staff. Like, Andre Patterson is defensive line coach. Bobby Johnson, offensive line, Mike Kafka, like they have guys, wink, a defense coordinator. Like, they have a lot of just sound minds with a lot of experience, but not gimmicky kind of guys, guys that adapt their stuff. Maybe not Wake who loves a run band coverage. But I will say about what's the kind of stuff that you tweak today. But also just I thought it was so cool that the head coach wanted to go. I'm not calling place.

It's my first year as a head coach. I'm going to what my offensive staff handle it, which that's a good sign. Honestly, I know that sounds kind of just minor, but that's a big deal. The fact that he has the, you know, macro view to understand how an offensive team should be or a football team should be. But man, there's just a couple tweaks like that they did today. And I just want to break down the one point. I actually might break this down for wind the clock. but not final yet, but this might be the one.

So Sequin's big catch on the second and 10. Oh, it's beautiful. I love it. I absolutely wanted to talk about this. Yes. So they're in pony personnel, which is two running backs, two true tailbacks, Sequin and Matt Breda. They run a concept.

I call Mariner, but it's really a drive type concept. So you have a crosser and they have a guy sitting over the middle of the ball. So it's a classic West Coast concept. But the big thing is they're in, that's the personnel that they run their wildcat in. And a lot of rundowns like second and 10, that's the personnel that they've been in a wildcat. And now they're shifting. Like they'll show like they're in like normal shotgun.

And then they shift Daniel Jones out. They shift into Wildcat. So now they're adding window dressing to their Wildcat stuff, which is hilarious. But when they're in this, the Packers match with their base, three, four personnel. And because they're expecting run. Hey, they've been in this personnel. We're getting run plays. Boom, boom, boom.

Nope. Seekwan is a receiver on this play. And it's a simple play. It's a classic concept. But so now they have Seekwon on the crosser, Quay Walker, who's going to be a good running back for the packer, or good linebacker for the Packers. doesn't take Sequin coming across to his side. They don't pass it off correctly, and that's why he pops out.

And you can hear Campbell, you saw Campbell pointing. He's like, you got him, you got him. And what I was impressed by was the timing and the spacing. Bellinger's sitting where he does. Walker doesn't really have a choice. It's like you're playing with what is his instincts. It's like, I have to be here. Yes.

And the way that it was spaced out and timed out was perfect because you can understand he's supposed to pass it off. But Bellinger sits right in front of Walker. and it's really difficult to just not pay attention to that guy in that situation. So it was beautiful. I mean, it just they create a chunk out of nothing. Nothing. And I mean, that just speaks to them.

I mean, just their offense and we joked about on Thursday show, it's a little bit gum and toothpicks where they're just like, hey, any means possible that we can get these yards. A lot of screens on third down, bootlegs on base down. They do the under center run game really well. The QB draw game, like Daniel Jones is, I'm making the joke. I'm calling them Gron from Lord of the Rings, which is just the battering ram. just the wolf battering ram. That's what Daniel Jones is sometimes.

But it works. Because they dress, they don't make it so, like every time the Cardinals are in second and extra long, they run a QB draw or running back draw stick. And it's almost like, I could tell you, as soon as a three by one,

second along, I could tell you this play is coming. You watch the Giants do these quarterback draw games. Everything, it's a little tweak. It's a different formation, different motion on it. So they're just window dressing it enough so you can't just tee off on it.

Oh, it's third and four. Here comes QB draw. That's why the Packers had an honor it. And that that's just coaching. That just really is. It's design. And I yeah, I want to give credit the credit to their staff because they're making the most of what they have. And that's really fun to watch when, especially in the game like this. Daniel Jones made like three or four like real throws today. I mean, there was a couple. He was very good when Blitz today. Every single

time they sent pressure after him, he was really, really good. I'm trying to find the numbers right now. But he was one of the best quarterbacks in the league when Blitz today. So second best EPA. That's been one of his worst things like is against pressure because he holds on the ball so long. So that yeah. Second best EPA in of the week when blitzed 30 he was blitzed on 38.7% of his dropbacks 10 of 12 for 133 yards and six first downs. He did a really good job. There was that one mesh play where he hit a strike to Slayton with pressure in his face.

Right after that he'd another just bullet over the middle of the field off play action. He made like four or five throws and the rest of their offense was built out of bootlegs and movement and you can just see teams start to get affected by it. There was one play late in the game where he's rolling out in a bootleg, and Campbell doesn't know what to do. Because it's like, I have to honor this, but then a crosser snuck in behind him, and it's chunk gain for a first down. It all fits together in a way that actually doesn't make sense. The one big run that Saquan had in the Wildcat, they were in an unbalanced formation. So they have so many bodies to the right side, and then they run a little pin pull to the left because they have a numbers advantage.

And then down near the goal line, they're in an unbalanced formation again, except they're running it the other way. with a different run design. It's like it all is tied together. And what's cool to me is that when you watch this offense, it looks nothing like the bills or the chiefs look. And that's why I'm so encouraged about that my takeaway here from the bills from the giant side of this, the Giants could go three and eight the rest of the season.

They're super limited, right, with what this is going to have to be based on the receiving talent that they have. Their quarterback has his own limitations. There's a reason they didn't pick up his fifth year option. But if I'm a Giants fan and I'm watching what they're doing right now, it makes me incredibly excited for what next year is going to look like. It reminds me of what was like watching the Eagles last year where it's like, all right, what are you going to do with this? You're showing an open-mindedness, a flexibility where it's like, this is how we have to win. Let's build it out of this.

We're not coming from this one particular place. We're not taking a playbook from the place that we just left as the offensive coordinator, making a ton of copies of it and saying this is what we're going to do here. They're doing what they need to do to put their guys in the right positions. And then on defense, like, you got something named McLeod making plays in man coverage at the end of the game. I mean, there's so many guys out, so many guys you can't even name on that side of the ball. And they're preventing the Packers from moving it consistently. I think they deserve a lot of credit for getting the most out of the players that they have. The players that they have aren't very good.

And I think we will see that over the long run. But they have maximized the talent on this roster in pretty much every way imaginable. I mean, even just speaking about knowing situations, and that comes down to coaching as well, and just smart players understanding that. But, I mean, the last play of the game at the last drive for the Packers was they bad the ball down, the Giants batted the ball down. And that is, okay, the Packers offense is so funny, so much jet motion. Oh, my God.

It's just every play has jet motion on it. It doesn't matter. There's no tell to it because there's a jet motion on every single play. But they're running so much quick game and so much get the ball out. And okay, they've been getting them all game with this, a lot of horizontal stuff. Getting them quick game, quick game, especially down near the red zone. Quick game, quick game, quick game. What is the Giants defensive line do?

Get their hands up. Okay, we're not going to get to the run. Hey, it's fourth and two. Hey, a lot of guys on those types of situations. My ears are pinned back. I want to make a big play and you'll be the hero. No, those guys got their hands up and they got the batting ball down. And that's just speaking to awareness.

And that has to be probably pounded by Patterson, the defense of line coach, just going and wink the defense of coordinator and going like, hey, know the situation. So again, that just comes down to coaching. It's really cool. I want to talk about one more offensive play. And it was when they were backed up. It was kind of a front side naked, which is kind of an oxymoron. But it's when you see actually a lot more right now.

But so you'll see the quarterback kind of reverse pivot. He fakes it. And then the runoffback will run to the flat towards the side that the quarterback's booting to. So I think it was Brito was out to the flat on this one. It was. It was the play right after Seekwon got hurt. Yes. So they do a jet motion on it.

And what it was cool about this, it was the Vikings ran a similar look against the Packers in week one. But it was in the red zone. And it was the one that Jefferson scored a touchdown on. But it was the same action, but it was Jefferson on the jet kind of front side. I'm getting too much into it. But anyways, but they do the front side naked motion on this. But what they were attacking was the Packers communication skills, especially their defensive backs. If you notice the theme here, there's so many times that the Giants took advantage of the Packers communicating.

This was a perfect instance. of it. They give the fake. Eric Stokes is going to Campbell and going like, hey, he's looking to pass it. But then all of a sudden they got the flat coming towards back, back towards him, but then they don't know how to pass it off because it's just that extra second of consternation. But again, it was a backed up situation rather than just going, oh, we're going to, remember last year Joe Judge just taking a knee? Basically, you be sneaking back up? No, they're attacking. They're going with a front side naked towards their defense, which I thought it was awesome. But it was again, they, now we're getting to week five and week six and week seven.

film is out there. That is your resume. So you start seeing what good coaching staffs, what tweaks they do about what other teams did against these defenses and offenses. And the Giants so far are showing that they know how to tweak their stuff, which is, it's awesome. It really is.

Yeah. And then on that same drive, they had a third and four and then motion breeder back into the back field. They got a man zone tell. And then they hit Bellinger on just like right over the middle of the field. And just like little tiny things like that. The other thing, game management,

them calling tight, they didn't need it because they ended up stopping it on four down. But calling a time out with like a minute and 11 seconds left to make sure that, all right, we're going to give ourselves a little bit of time doing that. There was a play that didn't end up working out, but it was like a third and eight. And they ran a quarterback draw on third and eight because they know they're going forward on fourth and anything less than four. So just all every decision fits together. And again, I think over time it's going to be a concern because of the lack of personnel that they have. But I'm talking to Nick McLeod making a play today on the in-man coverage on Randall Cobb in a big moment.

Fabian Moreau had that huge pass breakup against Alan Lazard in the fourth quarter. These guys we've never heard of before, I will say, the one guy I think in their secondary, McKinney, I think is also going to be a good player. But Darnay Holm seems like he's got some like real juice to him. That play where they broke it up on the second to last play of the game for Cobb, where it was tipped at the line of scrimmage, he actually had that. They were trying to pick on him in that moment, and I think he would have broken it up anyway. So he's somebody that watching him, it's like, that guy might have something to him.

But other than that, this is a secondary that will probably look vastly different next year than it does right now. So let's talk about the other side of this. We're impressed with what the Giants have done. This game leaves me pretty concerned about the state of the Packers' offense and where this can go. Because, I don't know, this just feels like a passing game that lacks juice, lacks real talent out there. And I mean, you talked about it. Aaron Rogers could not push the ball down. on the field today in any way.

He was four of 11 on throws of more than 10 air yards. And that's what it feels like. It just feels like they can't find anything going in that area of the game right now. Dude, their whole offense is like package plays, like flats and, you know, like bubbles and, oh my God, it's just over and over and over. Like the best thing they do is the little split back play action they do where they hit the little glance, you know, quick hitter in breakers, which is something, which is hilarious because Rogers used to crush teams in like 2012 with that.

So it's funny how like we're 10 years later, we're getting back to the same schemes. But I mean, like after the sequence, the Giants had a long drive. It was beginning in the fourth quarter. You could see Rogers on the sideline, just getting cranky. I'll say cranky.

Cranky's a good way to put it. Yeah. Just as some skated, I had a great, and he texted me and just goes, I guarantee you first play. He's going to throw it deep. He goes, I can tell you right away. Sure enough, Roger's throw.

It was the emotional blitz, but it's the emotional shot play. It was the emotional shot play. That's exactly what it was. I was trying to think of the best way to say, I was going to say performative. But yeah, I think, I think emotional shot play, that's exactly what it was because it was first down. He should not be throwing that. And he's throwing deep to Lazard.

I like Lazard. He's a great role player, but you're not throwing deep to Lazard. Like, that's not like one, two or three on your favorite plays you're dialing up. Then on third down, that save drive because they go three and out. They run 99, 989, so which is two verticals on the outside and a read route in the middle. They block it, block it up. Rogers, the whole way, just launches it to Lizard late. So that's why it was short.

And also, Lazard, again, you don't want him on a vertical route. And it's just one of those words, what is this offense? I mean, the heat map looked like a smiley face. And I was trying to find the Krieger quote from Archer where he's like, you know, you drop off the body parts. And it looks like a, it's going to look like a smiley face. I was trying to find that quote. I knew you liked that because that's exactly what it felt like. And I mean, okay, if you go against zone, okay, Rogers can find those spots.

But who's beating man for this team? That's against this team. When you have a man heavy team the way that the giants are. Yeah. And you got Nick McLeod out there and Fabian Moreau out there. See, that's like McLeod's going to be your guy now. You're going to remember his name forever. But like, these are guys that were waiver claims.

They're street free agents. They're people that are barely hanging out of the edge of NFL rosters. And they're, they're, getting gloved up in man coverage by this team. That is really scary. Yeah. Yes. I mean, you don't. The fact that Randall Cobb in the slot is still your best option against man is just like, and then like Dobbs is doing flashing and but like that's all like vertical stuff. Like he's not a great route runner yet. So like that's also a thing. It's just it's it's a very hard offense. It's it's a, it's a tight offense. The run game is good. And yes, those package plays work for six, seven,

yard gains, but where are the 15 to 20 yard chucks coming? Because, I mean, honestly, you're playing against the Giants, which you should have a talent advantage against, and you're making it look hard. So now imagine when you're going against the Bonafide teams. Like, you know, like that's, that's going to be a rough, rough slate. And that's how it feels like. I mean, yeah, it's just this offense. It's just like, I say gum and toothpicks with the Giants, but that's how it feels with this Packers offense at times. Like, it's just like, we're doing anything we can to window dress it and make it work. And that's, you know, that's not, you know, that's not. what we're usually used to with this type of offense.

I also want to talk about the Packers' defense a little bit. We talked about it last week, maybe a couple weeks ago, how they've just left me a little bit cold watching them. That's how I feel today. Like, this was supposed to be one of the better defenses than the entire league, and they've been really good against the past for the most part this year. But the Giants move the ball pretty consistently in this game. And that just shouldn't happen.

When you've spent as much as you have on that unit, especially in the front seven, all of the resources that they've pumped into it, and they just don't seem to be making anything. any progress on that side of the ball. And this is the sort of performance. It's like you were supposed to be able to carry the team and, and, and off, you're supposed to carry the offense as the offense.

This was supposed to be a 2013 game. This was supposed to be a 20 to 13 game. You were supposed to be able to win 20 to 13 games this season based on the way that this team had been built. And for them to lose a game like this and for the Giants to move the ball that they did, the way that they did in the second half is extremely frustrating. Yeah. We're at the big place.

Like that's, this whole team, offense and defense. but where are the big plays, the explosives for a defense are the TFLs, the sacks, the turnovers, and it just feels like they're lacking on it. They just, like, it's kind of funny how they're kind of mirror identities of each other, the offense and the defense. It's just a, it's more efficient than explosive, which is, but that's hard. I mean, that's a hard way to live. And I mean, just the over and post concepts that, I mean, the Giants hit them with a couple of them today

where they're just run the over and posts, like a lot of play action, heavy concepts, even on the bootlegs. And you can see some miscommunications happening with this pack. defense and it's like, man, the Vikings shredded you guys with that week one and we're in week five and the giants are doing it against you. That's a little, it's just dicey and it's just not what I was expecting. I thought this defense would really take a big leap forward this year. And they haven't. They absolutely have no. I think that's a really big concern because the offense continues to lag. All right, we're going to take our first break here. When we get back,

we're going to talk about a team that we just cannot figure out even five games into the season. What are you? I'm so happy I made it. That's all you. It's Charlie from Always Sunny. I appreciate you throwing out out there because we're going to ask that about the Minnesota Vikings. The Vikings are four and one right now. And even going back and rewatching that game today, I have no idea what the Vikings are.

Are the Vikings good? No clue. They're good for like, like if you watch like a, they have like the best six minutes of like anybody. Like they have a tight 10. You know like a stand up comedian. Like they have a tight 10 that they could do every game, but I don't know if they could do a whole special. Like I don't know if they can last an hour,

an hour and a half because there are some times where I'm like, man, this offense looks freaking awesome. Like their opening script looks awesome. They come out of the half like against the lions and they, they adjust to how their run game is going to go because like they realize that the lions are double teaming Jefferson. So they do this,

this and this. And then like cousins becomes cousins, turns into a pumpkin or just like they looks lethargic. A guy trips over himself. the old line can't hold up. I have no idea. I have no idea. It's a long winded way to say,

winded way, winded way to say I have no idea. Because at times their highs are really good, but at times it's like, oh, boy, what are you guys doing over there? Watching their offense move the ball as consistently, I think Cousin started the game 17 for 17 today.

I expected to watch it and kind of be wowed, but he was seventh in EPA per dropback over the course of the day. I watched it and I expected to be, wowed by some of the things that they were doing. They were really picking on Jalen Jones, the rookie free agent that the Bears had playing a corner with Jalen Johnson out. Everywhere he was, they were picking on him. And he was tons of cushion against Jefferson, just easy, easy completions.

So you're watching that, it's like, okay, like, there's nothing really special going on here where it's like, all right, against better teams this is going to work. So I wasn't that impressed with what they did offensively because that was a majority of the game plan. and then you have that one Kirk Cousins moment with that pick, which is very well played by Vind by Vildor. It was.

He's reading that perfectly. I mean, it's just because he's sitting there and I think he's in cover two and it's him going to the flat. And so Cousins wants the deeper shot and Vildor is just playing right in between them. If he'd taken the flat,

it was wide open. He absolutely could have had it. And he forces it and it's not there. So you have that. And it's just, you watch him, it's like, I just don't know how consistently

great they're going to be offensively because the quarterback is just meh he's always going to be me that's like what he is and the offensive line had some pretty weird moments today like Travis Gibson got the most of Brian O'Neill two or three times in this game so they have a little bit of inconsistency up there and the quarterback play is always going to be somewhere around the middle and I just don't know what to make of them I agree it's it's it's funny like even in this game like when the picture we laugh about it like that's why coaches love Kirk cousins because on the board he's amazing and and he's going to tell you he knows exactly what every read is he knows exactly what this this and this is one to two to three but like even in

this game and the bears aren't a team that's very exotic on defense they're more like we're gonna let's set it and forget it i was trying to be nice but you can see a couple saps like there was a third and four in the second quarter and and the i believe the vikings were i can a four by one look or an overloaded look and the bears show two man and they're right at the snap they went back into a Tampa two. So like they get, they're shown man, shown man. And then the guy screams. So basically goes from a man coverage to his own coverage, but same

backward shell. Cousins literally freezes. He just sits there and just like, he doesn't look anywhere. And I'm really curious to watch it from the end zone view like, uh, going back and watching this game. Because he just sits there and freezes and they get a sack. It's hilarious. Yeah.

That was one of those. That was one of those O'Neill plays where it's just like he, the Jones comes around on the TE and he just lets him go. And it's like, man, what is happening here? And that's the thing. They have these highs that are just so pretty. Like there's some of the red zone designs I did in my, I wrote about it in my article was, it was really cool. And I was talking about how tendencies start to show up.

And the Vikings, especially in the low red zone are really cool when they face man coverage teams on how to pop guys open, either Jefferson on a jet sweep or Thielen against the lions. And they have Jefferson on emotion and Theon pops open on the other side because of miscommunication. But then they have other. plays where it's just like, what was that? Especially, and sometimes it's cousins induced. Like there's another one, the one where the ball gets knocked down on a third and ten, like the ball just digs into the ground. Cousins freezes on that one because they show single high and they rope tape back to cover two.

Not that's crazy, but the fact that the offensive line and the quarterback, which are as amazing as Justin Jefferson is, that, that's the battery. Like, that's how you're going to get your plays and your pretty plays going. Oh, it's just like, it's like the fact that they can't handle that. just an easy shift from cover three to cover two. And they freak out. Like they're like, what? What is this? And then they'll go on the next drive. They'll have like a sweet pop pass to Irv Smith. So it's like the highs are amazing with this. But then the like the consistency is not there, which is kind of not what you want to see for a team that maybe I thought would be more

efficient with some explosives sprinkled in. I didn't think this would be such a high and low type of offense. Their 13th in EPA per play so far on offense through five games. Cousins is 18th in drop back BPA. It's a Rochak test. It's like, what do you want to see from this? Do you want to see the potential? Do you want to see where they can go? Or do you want to see what has been overall middling offense so far, even though

they're four and one? And in a division where we're not that excited about the way the Packers are playing and the lions are one and four and the bears probably aren't going to be a very good team. So this Vikings team is cruising toward the playoffs. Whether they're good or not is an entirely different conversation. Hey, our coach of the ear pick looks great. But the problem is Brian, Brian Daibo's fucking that up pretty intensely right now. Right.

Or Nick Siriani. Like, there's a lot of them. But even like we're just talking about the offense. We're focusing on the offense is, but even the defense for a defense that has, you know, some, some vets out there. There's so many communication issues. Like you watch this Bears game today. There's so much where the bears are just putting the guy in motion. And you see the Vikings players looking at each other at the snap of the ball.

And it's like, ooh, that you don't want. want to see that. Like once or twice a game, it happens. But the fact that I could rewatch this game in five times, I believe, on my count, just my hand count, that right at the snap of the ball, there's two guys looking at each other, like, what, like, what are we doing here? Which, oh, man, that's not, that's not what I was expecting out of this team. I know it's a new staff and everything, but I just thought it would be more of a more of a consistent team on offensive defense that were like, man, I wish their highs would be a little higher, but I thought the floor would be a little higher. Would you think about what the Bears' offense look like today? Because this is one of

those games where I start to talk myself into it a little bit, I think. I mean, I'm kind of am a little bit with this team. I mean, I'm never out on fields. I'm still buying stock on him. I'm sure what you are talk about on Thursday. I know you are. I want to table that conversation for a second. I mean, he played well today. I mean, this is the best game he's played all. This is best game. I think it's by far. I mean, the shot to Mooney is just an incredible catch, but that's also just giving your guy a chance in that spot. It used a ton of empty today. And he actually looked pretty good in it. Which is a good sign.

He had 12 empty dropbacks, and he only had 29 dropbacks on the entire game. He was 6 of 10 for 108 yards. So it was 0.48 EPA per dropback out of empty, which is that would be Justin Field or just me, Josh Allen's leading the league at like 0.34 right now. So that just tells you how efficient that they were. And it wasn't just that one shot. I mean, they were using it consistently. And he was getting rid of the ball quickly.

And when he wasn't getting rid of the ball quickly, he was taking off quickly. He was decisive today in a way. that I think was, and Amir Smith, Marcette, if he doesn't get that block in the back that what I think is a pretty cheapy block in the back, the Bears could win this game. Yes, it's a highlight like 40 yard touchdown run. Yeah. I know. And there's times too, like on third downs too, where fields, that's the thing, I'm glad you said decisive. That's the, that's what's been my blemish with fields. I can tell he's trying to do the right thing. But it's like, dude, you got to get through this checklist quicker. You got, hey, screw steps three and four. Just get through steps one and two. And I know he's trying, he's a smart

player. You can tell he's intelligent, but he's got to speed it up. It's like, dude, quicken it up. And there's a couple times where he, like, he stepped up in the pocket, went one to two, and he hit it like a dig route with like as he's moving in the pocket. That is, those are the signs of progress. Of course, the running stuff's amazing. And I'm glad he brought it up, like you said, decisive. That's why the running looks so much better today than sometimes it does because he's going, okay, this is an opening. I'm going. As opposed to he kind of likes to waver around a little bit and fine. He's trying to be perfect on everything.

And it's like, no, just do it. If you make a mistake, make it fast. And today was like the, this is the most confident he looked, especially in the pocket. I agree with that. I agree with that. Confident today. And you saw it a little bit with the Giants game last week, but this was the most confident he looked this entire season, which is good.

You want the arrow pointing up. Just little tiny things. There was a third and six with like six minutes left in the fourth quarter. They were an empty again. They did a good job today of chipping also out of empty just to give more time. so they're making sure, right, we're going to clear the picture up for him, but we're also not going to leave him hanging out to dry. And they chipped, and then he hit Mooney on a little whip. And it was just like, his eyes are going to the right places.

He's moving quickly. He's being decisive. It's like, all right, this is the type of stuff I can get behind because this is not what their passing game has looked like for the most part this season. And, you know, the shots to Mooney, like that, that's obviously the highs, but just consistently good process down in and down out. This was much better than it's been. but we will have plenty of time this week to talk more about Justin Fields and the Chicago Bears' offense for good or for bad. We're going to take one more quick break here and then get to some stuff that disappointed us a little bit this week. I'm not mad.

I'm just disappointed. Nate, the Jags lost to the Texans today. They scored six points. Yes, they did. How are you feeling right now? A little iffy, little dicey. Yeah, that was not a lot of fun. Five drops from the Jags.

That was not a lot. There was stupid third and 20 penalty. Fourth and one was zero push. And my guy, Trevor Lawrence, decides to throw a pick in the end zone. On the second and one in the red zone where he could just walk it for first down. So yeah, just feeling, I couldn't believe this team that I thought would be fairly well coached was kind of kicked themselves a little or kicked themselves into nuts a little bit. Went back and watched this game. And the stat that I came up with, which feels right after you go back and watch that, Jags were 12th.

an EPA per play on plays between, excuse me, before they got to the 40 yard line. So from plays from their goal line to the opposing 40, they were 12th in EPA per play today. They were 27th in EPA per play on plays inside the Houston 40 yard line. I mean, they dominated this game in terms of moving the ball. I mean, consistently. The Texans best play in this game was a shot to Nico Collins down the left side line and then one crazy Damien Pierce run. They did not move the ball that consistently.

The Jags did. They just short-circuited every single time they got inside the 40. So I don't know if this is cause for concern necessarily with Jacksonville. I just think this is one of those games where you shoot yourself in the foot every single time you get something going on offense. And those games are going to happen every once in a while. But it's undeniably frustrating, especially because they have a window here. Like there is, if no one else is good, this is a team I think that has a chance to be pretty good.

and these sorts of games, it's like, man, that is just brutal. 400, they out came to Texans 422 to 248 in this game. They average 5.8 yards per play to 4.4 for Houston. And still, they just come away empty. And that is, it's a rough one. That is rough to stomach. It was. And like you watch it, God, this was like watching Trevor all last year.

You watch it and there's so many just brilliant throws. And he's like, oh, yeah, that's great. That's great. And then he just has a couple blemishes. God, he is like mad around the line. weird choices today. He's like Matt Ryan in so many ways. It's actually not even, it's getting funny to, it's like comical how much they are like how

they just have this couple weird plays like, but this offense though, and if you look at this heat, chart and just how it is, and I tweeted this, it's an offense that's built off long twos. It's a lot of intermediate parts of the field. I get that. Lovey and the Texas defense did a lot more cover two. Lovey's kind of mixed it up a little bit this year, but a lot more cover two this week. And so you saw a lot of digs, a lot of benders. Those are hard throws.

And this is why I like Trevor Lawrence because he's willing and able to throw those over and over and over. He had like three or four today. We're just like, oh, goodness gracious. It's so fun. And it's like, I know. And like, every ingram's playing well. So I shouldn't knock him as much. But it's like he is throwing to Marvin Jones and Evan Angrim and not really the guy, Jamal Agnew like those types of guys.

But man, you just in the screen game's good. The naked game's good. That's why it's like, I don't want to get too down on this. But it's you see some of the blemishes with the roster a little bit. this is what we had qualms with going into the year, not a lot of outside guys and not a lot of speed down the field. Like Travis E.T.N. is their best juice guy. He's a running back. Yeah, Agnew. Agnew and E.T.n are all they got in terms of juice. Because the way Kirk, that's just not how they use him.

Right. And so it just kind of takes it away from him being in that role. But, I mean, you look at it, like, late in the first quarter when they were down near the goal line, he has James Robinson wide open in the flat on that play. And somehow, for whatever. reason he goes back over to the middle of the field. There was another, on the fourth down, where they tried to have Kirk working against Desmond King, Zay Jones is wide open if he just lets that develop. So there were three or four of those and then just a mind-boggling decision on the Stingley interception.

It's like just chuck it out at the back of the end zone, my man. I just live to play another down. You don't have to do that. And I think that it's just a reminder that even if in the grand scheme of things where aren't a lot of great teams, they're going to be competitive every single. single week and they could win the AFC North. This is still a second year quarterback who didn't always play great last year. They don't have a ton of offensive weaponry.

Juan Taylor had a really rough holding call, that torpedo to drive. They still have a lot of flaws, even if they had some really nice moments over the first month of the season. He hides some blemishes, but there's still a lot there. And that's with him and also with the team around him. And that's what it looked like today. It's an incomplete team, even if I'm, optimistic with what they're doing.

It's just still, there's a lot to be desired. You get another team. Oh my God, we could save us about 27 teams. You just wish they were a little bit more consistent. That's how the Jaguars play, especially on offense. And then even if Trevor and Walker doesn't get dinged for that personal foul, it was going to be like third and 17. The Jaggars could win this game.

So, but you still, you just expect a little bit more of a complete performance against a Texan team that is deep, deep in rebuilding mode. All right. One more performance set, a little bit. disappointed by the Giants, or excuse me, the Lions got shut out by a team that was quarterback by Bailey Zappy today. Scunked. Skunked by them.

I couldn't believe the score. It was insane. The Lions had six drives in this game that at one point got inside the Patriots 35 yard line and they scored zero points. Some of that is because it was in the fourth quarter and they're down by three or four scores already. They're going forward and forked out. But they had drives early on where they're going forward on fort down or

That was the fumble that got returned for a touchdown. It's like, what is happening right now? The offense, some rough moments, the golf interception. I mean, I think offensively, you got outplayed up front, which is like a concern. And it's pretty surprising. They got beat up a little bit. I mean, Judon had some really nice moments against Taylor Decker. Josh Uche had a couple really nice moments in this game, a couple really nice pass rush moments.

Jack Jones, I think, is turning into a pretty nice player. He had the pick last week. And then the pick that he had down near the pylon in this game was a beautiful play. So credit to the Patriots defense on that side, I'm most worried about a lion's offense that allowed Bailey Zappy to consistently move the ball. They could not pressure him. They could not pressure him this entire game. They had three pressures total over the course of the game.

And Aidan Hutchinson's playing. A lead McNeil was back. And they cannot get after anybody up front. They are dead last in defensive VP. And even if we've talked about the lack of resources they've spent on that side of the ball, I mean, this is, even if we have some good feelings about the Lions' offense, they're not one and four, and they have the worst defense in the NFL. The lack of ability to get after him in this game is what was most concerning.

He finished fifth in EPA per dropback, Bailey Zappi did in this game. He was 17 of 21. Again, they had four pressures on 22 of his dropbacks. If you look at the actual next-gen stats, I believe Ali Connolly tweeted this out, they know lion's defender had an average of less than four yards of separation between them and Bailey Zappy over the course of this game. And the Patriots offensive line is fine, but that just can't happen. And for them to move the ball as consistently through the air as they did with a backup quarterback,

a backup backup quarterback in there, it's pretty concerning if you're Detroit. Yeah. And you just want to see the signs of life. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, we know the defense is their weak point. But it's also like just the difference, too. It's like even when you watch, I know this is not fair to Jared Gough. I'm talking about the offense real quick.

Is Jared Gough had a play. It was the third down. It was the first third down in the game. It's man coverage. He breaks contain. And he's trying to outrace the DB who's on the opposite side of field to the marker. And then you remember, oh, yeah, that's Jared Gough. That's not Josh Allen, Mahomes, you know, Herbert, these guys.

And you're like, that's the difference right there. He didn't punish you all the way. And then they go front of fourth down. They don't get it. And so, yeah, he catches up to him. Of course, he has the interception as well. But man, God, and it's like the run game can be pretty, but that's the thing. It wasn't, that's what they've been lifted by this entire year because you're not going to live and die by golf.

And you're not going to live and die by your defense. And the fact that that was getting beat up, it's like that's where you see a performance where you get skunked in. And this defense, too, like even in the run game, it's, okay, finding a lot of dbs is hard and playing good pass coverage is pretty hard as well as finding a good pass rush. but usually you're hopefully you have one that's a sign of life. But how many times you saw like Stevenson for the Patriots breaking like five tackles like as you burst through the line that's like, oh man, you guys are supposed to be kind of even if you're not very talented on defense. You're supposed to be hard nose and kind of fundamentally sound.

Yes. In the right spots. It's one of those teams that I think last year I was more impressed with the way they were coached on the defense event. The players weren't very good. But it's like, all right, they had some nice moments. I could see this moving forward in a positive direction. And that just didn't happen.

And I know they lose Okuda at some point during this game. And they're banged up on the back end, all of that. But still, this just shouldn't happen against a third string quarterback. And it's definitely cause for concern with the way that they played on that side of the ball. Especially when we see some of those floaters coming out. It's like, how are you guys not? Oh, my God. It's incredible.

It's floating out. You're watching on the TV copy and the ball's floating out. You're like, oh, that's going to get knocked down. And there's a guy catching it wide open. You're like, how do you guys, even if you're not getting there right away, how do you guys not recover in time? So, yeah, it was. It's just a reminder.

We keep saying this when we talk about the lines, and I hate to kind of beating over the drum. They were expected to win six games this year. And we were excited. That's exactly right. But we need exciting teams. We're so desperate for teams that are like mildly exciting that when the Jags have this type of game against the Texans and the Lions get blanked by Bailey Zapian company,

we're like, God damn it. Like no one. I just need a little bit of excitement. I'm upset by the Jags. I really am by today's game because it was like just, even if win 1310 or something like that, just win, just chalk went up for the W column so we can talk about a different game. But I know. That's the thing. It's like we're, oh, okay, we got the lines off and the line. They kick ass and then they get beat up a little bit. And it's just like, oh, no, come on. This is something that we were latching on to. Now that's getting loose too. But yeah, no, it's, it is really just just, that's how this league is right now. Even the stuff we get excited about, they just knock us back down week in, week out. One more thing I'm disappointed in. It's no fault of their own. I'm pretty bummed that the Niners defense is falling apart.

I'm pretty bummed about it. Bosa goes down. Emmanuel Mosley tears his ACL today. Jimmy Warren has a broken hand. Eric Armstead is already missing some time. We talked about it on Thursday show. The Niners defense is one of my favorite thing to watch in the NFL right now is when they're playing.

And they just as a unit, they're terrifying. Like the mindset that they play with is incredible to watch. And then all those guys start getting hurt. It's like, we cannot have nice things. and I'm getting really frustrated about it. We just can't talk about any of them now. It's like, oh, how for that Lions Run game?

And it's, boof. We get Trevor Lawrence coming together. Just every week, we just can't have a Thursday show where we talk about anything. We're just going to just talk about like, ooh, what's the spread? That's all we're going to talk about now. All right, a couple of things I wanted to hit before we get out of here. We had some pretty controversial calls in the back half of those early games. First one, the roughing the passer call on Grady Jarrett is on the podium for the

worst calls I've ever seen in an NFL game. It's because when you watch the replay, he holds them up as he's bringing him down. The way he finished the play was, I tweeted this. It was almost gentle, and they gave him the 15-yarder. And I'm not saying that the Falcons would win the game or all that because in the previous play, there's a pass interference penalty that you get called. For the most part, this stuff comes out in the wash. I'm just absolutely disgusted that we've gotten to a place where that is a roughing the

pass-or call in an NFL game. And that's what happens when you have a rough that's 67 years old making these decisions. And that's something that should be, there should be an age cap on this. My parents are in the early 60s. I wouldn't trust them roughing a game, even though they know all the rules. Are you kidding me? But I couldn't believe it. And he doubled down on it.

Of course you have to. But he was just like, oh yeah, he forcibly threw him to the ground. And it's like, come on. Come on. I actually loved what, I think it was on Fox that game. But whatever, they showed a replay of all the times. Tom Brady got hit that game. And you could just see it.

They're like, that wasn't a penalty. That wasn't a penalty. That wasn't a penalty. Like, they're even just commentating on it. And then also just boom. They show that one with Grady Jared. It was, it's so like just like just. He's like delicious.

That's all he did. That's all he just rolled. He just rolled them. That's it. There's no jerk. There was no alligator J.J. Watt twist. There's nothing.

He just got a twist pulled around and dropped him on his on his keister. Like what the hell? I know. I couldn't believe that. I am like you said. It's not like the, we don't know what the. Falcons would do, especially if they have to drop back and pass all those times to win this game. But still, give them a freaking chance, especially in that kind of moment of the game.

Another pretty controversial call that happened today. The Chargers going for it on fourth and one from essentially their own 30 yard line where if they don't get it, they've given the ball back to the Brown's in field goal range. There's been a lot of discourse about this already, shockingly, considering it's Brandon Staley and the Chargers going forward on four down. people there is a contingent of people that think he should be fired for even making the decision. There is a contingent of people who think that it was a no-brainer that with the way the game was going, you go for it on fourth and one. The math says that you go for it.

I fall very much in the middle of those two camps because it was not fourth and one. It was fourth and 1.7. When you go back and watch it, it was closer to two yards than it was to one yard. It was. In the overall flow of the game, neither of these teams is to be. able to stop each other at all. So if you don't want to give the Browns the ball back and it's fourth and one, run the ball. If you can have the option to run it and that's part of the chance for make the conversion, I think it becomes a no-brainer. The 1.7 and it being almost two yards,

I think puts it up for a debate. I have no problem with it going either way. But this idea that it was, look at the math, it was one yard, how you absolutely should go for that. It was not one yard. And I think that that needs to be brought into discussion because it's a little bit more nuance than that. Yeah. It's every situation is different. And I know we want to cut and dry it as much as we can. Like we want to put on the prime vision on Thursday nights. And it's like, oh, third one, go. Third one go. Third two go. You know, all that. But I mean, but also you got taking into consideration what you're calling. Like, I can't wait. This is just, just weekly at this point, talking about Joe Lombardi's play design. But they're going to go on fourth and, I'm going to call fourth and two.

I wrote down on my notes that's fourth and two. They ran slant flats with double slants on the other side, which is a day one install play for every offense in America. Cop out play to me because that's like, hey, quarterback, make us right. Just, you know, find that, pick a read. You're not saying it's a progression read and we have a perfect design. The thing was, they had a third and two earlier in the game. They went third and two and then they went fourth and two and didn't get it.

That third and two, you know what play they called? Slant flat with double slants on the same side. They called the exact same play. And then they went forth and two and guess what they called stick? Because of course they did. And he took the one-on-one to the ex side. I think it was Mike Williams. But again, it's you got to take that into consideration as well.

It's like, do we trust what we're going to call here, even though we have a superhuman at quarterback? But that's another part of like the equation that you have to put together. I don't know. I'm aggressive. Like I, I'm kind of always been like that, hey, let's put in our guys' hands rather than cross our fingers and hope, you know, that missed the kick or that we can. hold them and all that.

They weren't stopping them. Like past game or run game, they weren't. So I kind of get it. So I'm always going to be signing with the aggressive side, but you always just got taking consideration. Do I trust my offense coordinator's play call here on fourth and two? Because if he showed the exact same point on third two that they stopped and we didn't even run it right because a runback didn't go to the right side on that third and two,

that's not exactly what I want him to repeat as his play call. That's a situation where typically I'm always down to go for it. and I'm always supportive of making the aggressive call in that moment. When they went for it, I was like, I think I just would have ponded it. Because if you don't get it, you almost lose the game. If you don't get it, they have a chance. They get the ball in field goal range. Ultimately, it didn't work out.

And I think that, you know, I totally understand him wanting to go for it. That's just one of those were like, in my gut. I was like, I can't believe they're going for this. Because if you don't get it, the game is probably over. And then it wasn't. There was another decision in this game, though. The Brown said the ball on their own 30 when they were down in the second half, and they went forward on fourth and they didn't get it.

That to me was almost a worse moment because you have a guy who is the king of quarterback sneaks and you need six inches and they ended up handing the ball off and not getting it. That one was way more frustrating to me than the staley one was. No, that's a great call with the sneak stuff too because they did the they have a botonio on the long pole, which is a great play. I like it. It's one of their best plays. But not on fourth and one, pulling people a lot more can go wrong, especially in short yards,

because a lot of stuff happens fast. And one guy doesn't step down as we saw on this play. So like that was kind of another thing. You got to take place in what we're calling in these situations. Do we really love this play? Is this like, man, we're getting this one every week. So when you're breaking down short yardage every week, somebody's in charge of it. And you put together a menu, usually three, five plays, a couple runs, couple passes.

And then you kind of know, like, I don't really like our short yards plan. Like when you play the Patriots, goal line was really tough and short yards was really tough. and you're like, man, I don't really like our short yardage menu. Hopefully we can get more third and mediums or get the first downs on second down than have to face these short yardage. So you kind of know. So if it's like, man, I know this. This is a 90% or we love this play because they're going to do this, this and this.

Okay, you kind of know. But that's another thing they have to take in consideration when you call these plays. And I don't know, having a long pulling power play was not my favorite on fourth and one. Where are you at on both of these teams? Oh, my God. This is a wild game. some of the numbers in this game are absolutely insane. The Chargers in this game

generated 10.1 EPA on the ground. 10.1. For some context, there were only two teams that had generated that much EPA total on the ground in the first four games of the year. They did it in one game against this Browns team. And these two teams combine,

they combined for 451 yards on the ground. Between them, they average 6.9 yards per carry. It just, I don't know what to make of either of these teams. Because the Browns, I think, are really well coached, and the design on offense is really, really good. They are consistently moving the ball against everybody they play. Their defense is not good. And I thought that their defense would be good.

They had guys back today. Clowny was back today. Garrett was back today. They're getting run on left and right. They traded for Dion Jones after this game ended, because apparently they need some help in the middle of their defense. The Browns are 26th. EPA per play on defense this season with all of the guys they have on that side of the ball.

They're just such a strange version of this team. I just never imagined that they would be a borderline top five offense over the first five weeks and they wouldn't be able to stop anybody. And the Chargers, we've talked so much about their highs and lows and why we're both simultaneously frustrated and excited about them. I mean, I think both of these teams are going to be competitive over the course of the year. But going back to the way we started the show where everyone has these flaws that are impossible to get out of your mind. That's how it feels with both of these right now. Yeah. Like the browns are light in the pants on purpose, like on defense.

Like they, they want to, they're kind of a speed first defense. That's what they want to build. But always cover somebody. Like if you're, if you're built that way and I get it being a modern defense, hey, let's stop the pass first and okay, we'll, we'll eat, you know, kick them the teeth a couple times in a run game. But you got to have some strength on your defense. just seems to me that's like, okay, we're not covering anybody. There's so many, there's so many open players in this passing game. And it's not like the chargers have really been set in the world on fire on offense. I mean, they have, but they have it. Again, it's like we're frustrated and excited at the same time with them. But then you see this run game, we kind of

figured that the run game would be a little dicey, especially after that Falcons game last week. But like you said, Garrett and Clowny are back. So at least we're the big plays on your defense. And it's just weird. It's, it's, yeah, I don't know. They're just a very disappointing, especially on the defense side, as much as I like what they're doing on offense, even with Jacoby Brissette at quarterback, they're doing nice things on offense. So it's like, okay, this defense will be at least league average, but they're not. They're not really doing much. And that's kind of weird. That's very weird. And charges, we've spilled enough digital verbal ink on with the charges and everything that they're doing. But both of these

teams, I feel like could beat anybody any given week because of the way that their offenses can play, even if we're seriously concerned. They sum up the season perfectly. Yes. This game in these teams, I totally agree. A lot of cool parts and then a lot of blemishes that we just, it's hard to look past. All right. We're going to talk about some guys that we noticed today and then we're going to get out of here. Very quickly, we're going to talk about this game in depth tomorrow on the Monday hangover with me and Deonté. I want to talk about the Jets rookies as guys that we saw them in this game.

Breece Hall had a huge game. Sauce Gardner had a pick. I want to go back and really dig into that. I kind of mentally checked out when Skylar Thompson. went into that game. It's like backup quarterback, but it was impossible not to catch some of those really nice moments from those guys in the Jets. So I want to dig into that tomorrow and really chat about where the Jets are and who's playing well for them. But just even at first glance, those guys stood out to me today. Yeah, it was kind of a funny thing that Soss Gardner and Derek Stingley both got

picks today, interceptions today, because man, they're both good as rookies, like, which is insane. We've talked about in this show when somebody's just showing signs of life at corner as a rookie, it's a good sign. These guys haven't hit their buy week and they already look like good starters. Sosses. Soss rocks. Like he is a fun player. Like he is. His nickname Soss.

Like so he's going to have some, he's going to have some swagger to him and he plays like that. He's not only long. He's super tough. I mean, the hit on Teddy, like that's how he plays. He's a very competitive dude. Week one against the Ravens. There was a cool play where he communicated. Cates, kind of like a theme of this pot is talking about DB communication and defense

communication, watching a rookie corner in his first game, telling vets how to pass this off in the middle of the play. And it was a play in the red zone. He knocks the ball away. Awesome. That was a week one as a starter in the NFL as a corner, which is ridiculous. And then he's going one-on-one a couple weeks later against Jamar Chase and T. Higgins and more than holding his own, winning one-on-one battles, extended plays, go-balls.

He's awesome. He's such a cool player. I really like Breece Hall. He was my running back one coming into this class, Iowa State, really smooth runner. And this is the first game I could really see him. He's always under control, but another player that was more decisive. We're talking about Justin Fields. Same thing with Breece Hall.

This was the first one I could see him really playing his foot. And he's like, screw it, I'm getting north, which is good. And him and Michael Carter is such a fun pairing. Really like both of those backs. So really cool to see both of those guys. And having even talk about Garrett Wilson, who does a lot of fun stuff with the ball in his hands. Yeah, I'll be excited to dig into that game tomorrow. We'll talk about that with Deontay.

We'll talk about, I think, three other games tomorrow. We didn't hit Titans and Washington at all today. We'll chat about that. Seahawks and the Saints. We'll chat about that game. A lot of stuff to do on the Monday Hangover with me and Deontay. In the meantime, if you guys could subscribe to the YouTube channel. If you're watching this, you could easily do that.

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It does really help us out. So please do that. I would really appreciate it. Really appreciate you guys listening, spending the time with us tonight. We'll be back with Deontay at 3.30 p.m. Eastern on Monday. Until then, I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.