The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - NFL Week 6 Monday Hangover — Bengals slip past Saints, another uninspiring win for the Vikings, and more

Episode Date: October 18, 2022

Mike Sando joins Robert Mays on this edition of the Hangover to break down four more games from Week 6. The guys dig into the Bengals' come-from-behind win over the Saints; the Vikings' latest half-hearted win, this one against the short-handed Dolphins; the Seahawks adding to the Cardinals' woes; and the Colts scoring a huge divisional victory over the Jaguars.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Mike on Twitter: @SandoNFLSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube3:06 Bengals-Saints14:15 Vikings-Dolphins27:02 Cardinals-Seahawks51:01 Jaguars-Colts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays, and joining me today, the athletic zone, Mike Sando. Mike, how you doing, man? I am doing well. I am suitably hungover from yesterday, not from drinking, but hungover from the weekend, as always, and it's a good feeling. I love the season, love football. Welcome to the Monday Hangover.

You're going to be doing this with us for the next few weeks, which I sincerely appreciate. You already have enough on your plate. Deiante is taking a little break, so we're excited to have you. And yeah, it's a fun experience waking up and be like, you know what I'm going to do this morning? I'm going to watch a bunch more football games. So welcome to getting to do that every single week. It's good. You know, I usually I found my pick six column.

We get it done by about 1 a.m. a lot of the times, which is funny because it goes live at like 2 a.m. East maybe it's 2.m. Pacific. I'm on Pacific Coast. So last night for whatever reason, I didn't shut it down to like three. So I got to do a better job of getting to sleep. You just get, you just get so going. Your mind is going with all this stuff, you know, and here we are. Let's, that's the problem for me is that we, we finish recording around like midnight.

Yeah. And I can't go to bed. Yeah. So what I've done over the last few weeks is I've just gone downstairs to the basement and watched House of the Dragon. And but that puts me at like 115. So then by the time I fall asleep, it's like 145 too. And I'm just not built like that anymore. I'm not built for those sorts.

to nights, but I'm so wired that I can't fall asleep any earlier than that. Yeah, I wonder what the guys are like playing the games and coach. Can you imagine after a tough loss, you're replaying things in your mind? You probably have to have a system or a way. Maybe some guys are just blessed and they just shut it down and get their rest. But some people, your mind just keeps going. And I'm sometimes in that, Sunday night is what does that for me. Not a lot of other things.

Usually I can shut it down, but Sunday night, it's just such a fun, wild slog, you know, through the games. that's exactly how I feel. So quick update for you guys, along with Mike joining us on Mondays, we have a slight shift in the podcast schedule here for the rest of the season. Mike and Randy and the football GM show that they were doing on Friday afternoons, which if you have not gone and checked out the football GM with Mike and Randy Mueller, it's a great show. They've done a fantastic job with it.

We're moving that on to Thursdays. So that is going to come out. First thing, Thursday morning, Mike and Randy, in your podcast feed. We are no longer going to have that on Friday afternoons. and the show that I've been doing on Thursday mornings, we're tabling that for the moment, just trying to make things a little bit more sustainable for an entire football season.

And this is what we've landed on. And Mike, I'm excited for you guys to be in a prime slot there on Thursday morning. So hopefully more people can check you guys out and we can kind of let the weekly preview breathe going into the weekend. It is great to be part of it. I don't know what we're going to do. The Thursday nights have been so bad or good.

Those games, we've been recording on Friday mornings. And we've had to be a week. those wild Thursday night games or disasters to go on, but we'll have plenty to talk about in the middle of the week and look forward to it. So today we're going to dig into four games that we watched yesterday. I want to start with Bengals Saints. Bengals beat the Saints 30 to 26 on Sunday. Tight game all the way through. Bengals' offense finds a little bit of life. They managed to steal one on the road, Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase back in Louisiana where they're clearly very comfortable. When you watch the Bengals offense in this game, what was your prevailing thought about where they're at right now after some of their early season struggles? You know, I thought it was better, especially, you know, going to New Orleans.

They've had a good defense, although you wouldn't know it, watching Seattle play them last week. But they've had a good defense watching that. I thought Burroughs mobility was outstanding. And really it was a huge difference in the game, not just on his scrambles, but there were those. But in his ability to move around, obviously had the rushing touchdown. But there were just plays there that he bought time. He's still so accurate as a passer. It really, to me, was a huge difference in the game.

Just his ability to maneuver, still make an accurate throw, make a good decision. I didn't come out of it feeling like feeling great about the offense or anything like that. But I felt fine because they did what they had to do to win the game. And I thought it was fine. It's been a slog at times this year for the Bengals and their offense. And we've talked about that a lot on this show and just how siloed their offense had felt at times over the last couple of years where when they're under center, they're running zone. And when they're in the shotgun, they're throwing the ball. That's kind of what it felt like for a while.

And the two styles of offense they were trying to play, the place that Zach Taylor comes from and the way that Joe Burrow had played at Ellis, you wouldn't want it to play. They were in Congress. They just didn't work with each other as part of one cohesive plan on offense. And watching them try to figure out this problem. in real time has been very interesting. You know, it hasn't been smooth. They haven't really hit on anything quite yet. That's like, oh, this is the solution.

But they're starting to chip away at it. And I thought this game was a really cool entry into that process. They went under center in this game two times. Two, one was a quarterback sneak on second and one, which I didn't really understand, but they did it. And they got the first down. I mean, he got it through there. Congratulations, guys. That's well done.

And then it was a kneel down at the end of the game. And so what they were doing in this really shotgun-only world is how they were operating throughout this entire game, is that they were using more RPO's than I've ever seen them use in the past. It's always been a part of their offense. But talking to some people this morning, they are leaning into it more than they had in the past. And I think this does two different things. One, it allows you to run or throw into advantageous looks. So you're putting more onto bro's shun. shoulders as a pre-snap operator, which he's pretty good at.

Like, if you're allowing him to play point guard in those situations, I think that's a good use of his skill set. You're removing that siloing from the equation. And they ran the ball pretty effectively in this game, considering how bad they had been running the ball for most of this season. And the last part of it is that their offensive line, they're still figuring out what this group does well. While Collins missed a huge portion of the offseason, offensive line play during training

camp and when you're not going full speed, sometimes it can be difficult to zero in on what you do well. And I think what they can do out of their shotgun run game might actually align with the skill set of their offensive linemen in their minds more than some of the outside zone stuff. So this shotgun-only RPO sort of world that they're drifting into, I do think is a smart approach considering some of the problems they were having early in the season. And got a season high completion percentage out of it, 76%. Look at the percentage of plays. I'm glad you brought that up of under center.

In the third game of the year, it's 41%, then 44%, then 12 and 4%. And they did not attempt to pass from under center in the game. Zero pass plays, correct? That's what I got. So that is a huge, that is a huge shift for them, seemed to work for them. Joe Burroughs comfortable with that, right? Yeah. And I also just think that Nate and I talked about this, and this is just pop-side.

psychology nonsense. But there are times when I think him living in this world where he's facing as much cover to as any quarterback in the league essentially and teams are forcing him to check it down. He can get a little bored. It does feel like that. And now by giving him so much to do, you're almost removing the threat of boredom from the process. He's not just checking it down. He's having to make these decisions and really be in control of the offense. And these are guys with Chase, especially that are really hard to tackle. So if this offense is now, we're going to hand it off into advantageous looks, we're going to throw it based on some pre-snap alignments and get the ball into a guy's hands who's really good after the catch. I understand this as a plan based on what their earlier season problems were. And I do think it looks pretty good in this game. Joe Mixon average 5.6 yards per carry in this game.

That wasn't happening for most of the time in the way they were trying to run the ball for the first five weeks. Yep, absolutely. And if you have some concern with protection, you know, one of the nice things about being And the gun is the quarterback you can see more sooner. Yeah. Just getting rid of the ball quicker. Get rid of the ball quicker, shorter passes.

I do think it makes a lot of sets. That being said, it's not a spotless game. You know, he had a miracle third and six play that he extended where he found Tyler Boyle. That was a huge play in this game. We talked about the rushing touchdown. There was a third and three also. There was a nice third and three with about 10 minutes left in the game.

Extended things. They're down 26, 21. They need points. I really like that. That was the play I was talking about. It was third and three, not third and three. not third and ten. It was that miracle scramble where he lost Pete Warner in the hole and then found

Boyd for that huge play. So there were several of those and the offensive line is still going to be a work in progress. They haven't played great this season. But I do think that they're chipping away at answers to some of those issues that were facing them for the first month and even for long stretches of last season. If we flip to the other side of the ball, I just don't really know what to make of the Saints offense. It's just such a strange collection of parts right now because you still have a lot of

wide receiver injuries. A lobby doesn't play in this game. Michael Thomas doesn't play in this game. You have Andy Dalton in defined passing situation struggling a little bit for most of this one. Tassum Hill, when he was in, the way that affected the running game, they're running the ball consistently, but then they get to the red zone and kind of crap out. I just don't really know what this Saints team is at this stage, especially because their defense isn't super, super elite at this point, Marshall Latimer didn't play yesterday. You know, the secondary hasn't been quite what it was in years past. I'm just having having trouble making heads or tails of what they are. I agree, but they've been more productive than they should be on offense, in my opinion.

Yes. I've, you know, the last three games, so the last three games, they're plus 4.7 plus 6.4 plus 8.1 EPA. That's a lot. I mean, those are good games typically. That's 25 points. That's 39 points. That's 26 points.

On the scoreboard with, like you said, a hodgepodge of guys in and out, and what are we doing at quarterback? and suddenly Taysam Hills had a huge game against Seattle. And you can certainly see the limitations of Andy Dalton, but the production was just way better than it should be. So I'm not sure where they're going with it. I'm not sure what they're going to be. Maybe this is what they are.

It just feels like it's a hodgepodge. If they hadn't struggled so much in the red zone, I might be seeing this a little bit differently because they probably win this game. If they didn't stall every single time they got down there, they might win this game. I think they were probably 26th of 30 teams in EPA ProPLAG in the Red Zone yesterday. They really struggled down there. They averaged 10, average of 3rd and 10 every single time they got to 3rd down in that area of the field.

And it's just little stuff. It's a screen to Camara that gets blown up 2 yards deep in the backfield. It's an incompletion on 1st down and then a run for no gain on 2nd down from Taysam Hill. You're sitting there looking at 3rd and 12, 3rd and 10. And that happened often enough where they end up kicking field goals. and in this game, that was enough to cost it for them. So the fact that they're so consistently able to run the ball when Hill was in the game and Kimara looked pretty good in this game, even Mark Ingram seemed to have a little bit of pop behind an offensive line that he was playing fine as far as the running game goes.

That element of it works okay. And maybe there's a world where when they get Winston back and they get some of these receivers back and you combine that with the Hill elements in the running game that it all kind of comes together and they become a pretty decent. and offense, but I still don't know exactly where that brings them. You know, and for a team that for 15 years had just incredible precision, right? Everything was just finally dialed and tuned and the ball was going to be on this shoulder or we knew exactly and you couldn't stop it. And now, you know, early in the game, Andy Dalton's got Rashid Shahid wide open for touchdown. They're just on the same page.

The ball, I can't remember if the ball was inside or outside, but it was, they're just kind of looking back at each other like, oh, that would have been nice. The PBU that Ouzier had down the field in this game as well, which is like a beautiful play. He's been an underrated player for the Bengals over the last couple years. Or excuse me, Trey Hendrickson in a revenge game that we talked about on the preview show last week, had a huge pressure that ended up becoming a huge part of this game.

So the Saints are sitting here. They're two and four. Their offenses, whatever we want to make of it at this point. The problem with this is they don't have a first round picnic. year. So if this team somehow ends up picking, like in the top 10, based on this being an uneven season and their offense never really finding its footing, it hurts even worse because they're handing that pick to the Eagles next season. It really does. And we've questioned for the off season, what is the plan? What's the best way to go about it? And I think a lot of us,

you know, kind of instinctively sometimes say, hey, realize where you are, reset everything, you know, take two steps back or take a step back. You'll take two forward later. And that hasn't been. they're always trying to skip a step and go and go forward, but you just wonder how far forward they can go and what it's going to look like. And I don't know what to say what the plan is, but what's the vision for how they're going to, what are they going to look like on offense the start of next season, do you know? I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea.

I don't know how good their offense is right now because, again, they're in this situation where you have Andy Dalton playing and you don't have any receivers again because after losing Landry and Michael Thomas, now Alave is out of this game. It's just been a strange, the circumstances they've faced this year with the rotating cast of quarterbacks and the lack of talent at receiver because of injury

is just a really difficult thing to overcome. But they've also created a very small margin for error for themselves with the way that they've built the team. Yeah, absolutely. In these real close games the last few weeks, it feels like they're going to, you know, lose two out of three of them. All right, let's get to our next one here.

Vikings and Dolphins. The Vikings beat the dolphins 24 to 16. They're now 5 and 1 on the season. We asked this question last night, and I'm going to pose it to you after rewatching this game. The Vikings are 5 and 1. Are the Vikings good? You know, there's my answer. I mean, I think they know. I was reading Alec Lewis's piece, you know,

about the game. He's our Vikings reporter. And it was like covering a loss that was a win. Yeah, you know, we should have been better. Cousins was frustrated. He ran over and he was blowing off steam and they knew they had to get things better. And even at the end of the game, you know, now defensively, Kevin O'Connell gave game ball to the entire defense. Everyone got one. So I get that. But you don't even feel that great about that because we know where the dolphins are at, right? They're playing backup quarterbacks and it's just not quite the same. So I just think it's great to be five and one. I think my thought on some of these games, like some of these games were tough to watch. This one was not a fun game to watch for a lot of the game. I didn't get the sense it was a fun one to play in, even for the Vikings to win it. But you got to notch these. No one's going to talk about what it looked like five, six, seven weeks from here.

This is exactly what we said could happen to the Vikings, not five and one. But this was a team we knew before the season without even being a great team could easily be back in the playoffs, could win the division. Remember when we were talking about what should they do? Kirk Cousin should be looking for their quarterback. Should we be starting over. They're going to be a playoff team, right? Yeah, because the Packers are really struggling and because the rest of the NFC seems terrible.

So the fact that they started off 5 and 1, they're almost walking into the playoffs, and that still doesn't change the fact that I don't know if they're in good. Yeah. You watch them. When you say that there was an unwatchable game and it wasn't fun to watch, typically that is the result of people being unable to block.

And that is what happened in this game. The Dolphins had a 42.4% pressure rate. They blitzed on 54.5% of Kirk Cousins's dropbacks in this game. which is the Dolphins, I know. It's not surprising that they would do something like that. The Vikings had a 44% pressure rate in this game. So when both quarterbacks are getting pressured, four out of every 10 dropbacks over the course of a game,

that's how you have an offensive slog like this. And that's what it felt like when you were watching it. The left side of the Dolphins line struggled for multiple different reasons. You know, Greg Whittle was playing with Tehran Armstead hurt. They struggled with some stunts with him and Lee and Meichenberg in this game. There was one sack that Little gave up that he got picked off by his own tight end who was trying to come across the formation, just all of those kind of issues in past protection.

And then you look at what's happening with the Vikings right now. And when I'm trying to figure out where the Vikings are struggling, I think it's in a couple different levels. I think that they was very horizontal in this game. They really struggled to push the ball down the field at all. I mean, they had really two big plays to Justin Jefferson, one out of blitz that Eric Rowe had just come in because Nick Needham had gotten hurt, and Jefferson was wide open when the dolphins bought pressure,

and then the little slot wheel to Jefferson later in the game to set up another touchdown drive. It was really totally the only explosive pass plays that the Vikings had in this game. So the fact that they couldn't really push the ball at all, and then what is going on with the interior of the Minnesota Vikings' offensive line, that is going to keep them for being a good offense if it keeps going at this rate. What is happening with Garrett Bradley, with Garrett Bradbury and Ed Ingram, that is enough to torpedo you on offense and kind of hold you back, even if all of the other component pieces should add up to something that's better than this. No, I agree. I think we knew that could be a vulnerability coming into the season for them, but I'm just looking at,

even though it was a bad offensive game, here's what they've scored on offense. 24, 29, 28, 28 to the bad 7 one on Philly and 23. So I don't know how many teams have scored at least 23 points on offense in five of the six games this season. It's probably a short list. So even in this game, it was a struggle, they end up getting there in the end. some of that's your opponent. But yeah, I just think it's banking a good record, knowing what you are, knowing that it's not perfect. But there's, to me, they're just, you know, making the move on from Mike Zimmer makes it, like there's a weight off of this team.

There's, yeah, it was tough to watch. But Kevin O'Connell was upbeat after the game. Like, it wasn't, there's not a stress around this team that there was. and I think they're in a great spot at 5-1. Yeah, they've got issues. We knew they're not perfect, but everyone's talking about the Giants. I mean, this is the quietest 5-1 team you're going to ever find. That's the benefit of this, is that they're clearly figuring all this out,

and they're clearly working through who they want to be and what their offense is. And again, some youth slash ineffectiveness, Garibra is no longer young, but ineffectiveness on the interior of the offensive line. I think the cousins, it's new to him, like this offense and everything he's had to kind of wrap his arms around. And the fact that throughout that process now, you're five and one is only a good thing. I just don't know where the ceiling is. Yeah, I think that I have not quite figured out yet about this. Well, I think they're going to know, they're going to find out their ceiling.

So look at their schedule. They're going to play Arizona. I like them. They're going to play Washington. I probably like them. Great chance to be seven of them. But you're going to play at Buffalo. You're going to play Dallas.

You're going to play New England. Do they win one of those? maybe, right? I mean, that's where they're going to find their ceiling. They're going to, in that gonfluence of teams, even though two of them are at home, they're going to get probably blown out once, lose a close one and win a close one. That's what I'd say. And then we'll have a feel okay. That's probably about where they were, which is about what we thought they would be. You know, a good team. That's not a great team. Yeah, I'd love to watch the all 22 of this game. Obviously, it was not out by the time we had to prep for this. The pass rush dominated for them.

like Zadaria Smith had a ridiculous game and then Patrick Jones had a couple really nice reps in this one as well. So those two plus Daniel Hunter I mean really took over the game for Minnesota what was happening on the back end a little bit harder to see. But what they did at front

made the difference for them on defense. I think that they're secondary. Patrick Peterson had a couple of really nice moments. But overall, yeah, he had a couple really nice moments against J-1 Waddle. But other than that, not a lot of guys just jumping off

because you can't really see it from the broadcast tape. So I don't really know what they're playing on the back end. But the guys up front, absolutely took over this game. Yeah, well, the one thing we could see on the TV copy was the way Pat Peterson and the veteran move came off of his deeper route and picked off the pass. That was just a really nice play that quarterback didn't see because he didn't think Patrick Peterson was part of the coverage, just kind of a nice veteran move to come off and get a turnover.

For Miami in this game, the feeling I leave with is, again, when they get healthy on offense, that just needs to happen. because even if Teddy Bridgewater is nominally your backup quarterback, the fact that he didn't practice all week, there's a reason he didn't start this game. So you have another in-game quarterback change for a guy that you didn't think had gotten enough practice time to be ready to start. And I think that crept up a decent amount in this one. And also not having Toronto Armstead at left tackle is a real thing. I mean, it's a real downgrade from him to Greg Little. And you combine those two things. And I think that explains a lot of what was holding the Dolphins back on offense again.

in this game after we've seen the flashes of what they can be when everyone's on the field. This is a team that easily could be five and one, right? If they're a little bit of injury luck and that type of stuff, I mean, shoot, they're playing with third quarterbacks in the game. I actually come away feeling a little bit better about Miami in this game as ugly as it was because we saw their defense. I mean, for most of the Brian Flores era, that's one thing you could take for granted. That's how they won the games.

And so it was so nice this season because we saw the offense perk up. Mike McDaniels scheming. They had speed on the outside. They had set up nice for Tua. And then we took for granted, okay, you know, they still got that defense because they kept Boyer. It's going to be the same scheme. Well, they haven't had that defense. The defense has been shaky a lot of the seasons.

So I thought it was great for them to have a defensive performance that kept them in the game and gave them a chance. And if they didn't have to be so down, you know, to their personnel on the offense, aside, that's a home win for them. No problem. I always thought that, obviously, they've been banged up in the secondary. They lose Nick Needham in this game. Davian Howard's been nursing, I believe a hamstring for most of the season. He's continued to play, but I don't think he's been close to 100%.

He had some nice moments in this game, but also just at times, still does not look like himself. But I think the front being able to kind of disrupt and affect the game the way that they did, I always felt like we would get there. Like, they have a lot of nice pieces up there. Zach Seeler is somebody. I've really been impressed by most of this season. And Christian Wilkins is always going to have a couple nice moments. Ogba absolutely destroyed Ed Ingram on a couple of plays in this game.

So I do think that the defense was going to get there. They're not as bad as they looked over the first five weeks. And if they kind of find themselves and that offense can get healthy, I still think that this is going to be a competitive team in the AFC for the rest of the way. I do too. When you're playing with backup quarterback, so you've got to be consistently productive defense special teams. And look at their special teams EPA, minus seven yesterday,

minus three the week before, minus six the week before, second week, minus six. Those are, you're a touchdown, you're losing by a touchdown on special teams. No one even talks about it. That's huge,

that's a huge house edge for the other team, especially when you don't have a backup quarter, when you're playing a backup quarterback and just trying to get by, you have to be winning in those areas. And so at least they did on defense. I think hopefully for them, you're right.

The defensively, it'll be fine. but they actually needed it now during the stretch, and that's one of the main reasons they've lost three games in a row is that they haven't had it quite as good. Also just a couple of hidden moments penalty-wise. They had a big rail kind of RPO to Shurfield down the left sideline in the first quarter. The center is like six yards downfield. So that one got called back.

And then Eichenberg tackled the defensive lineman, made it first in 30. So they ran into a couple of those. And then Igbenogamy came in near the, the end of the first half, and they immediately went to a double move to Adam Thielen that got a long past interference and set up a field goal. So just kind of those hidden yards, hidden penalties, I think those showed up in an advantageous way for the Vikings a couple different times in this game. So again, for Minnesota, like, even if you're not humming on all cylinders, and even if you haven't really found yourself on either side of the ball, if you can go through that process while

continuing to stack up wins, that's really all you can ask for at this point. That's where the Vikings are. All right, we'll head out to the Pacific Northwest here. Your neck of the woods. Seahawks beat the Cardinals 19 to 9 in just a disgusting field goal fest. Earlier today, before we started recording this, news comes down that the Arizona Cardinals have traded for Robbie Anderson. About time they go get a receiver. Oh, man. The last 24 hours have been a fascinating time in the Robbie Anderson saga.

It gets kicked out of the game yesterday against the Rams for our. and getting in the face of his position coach multiple times. He gets traded today to Arizona because I think in part, they lose Marquis Brown for potentially the season. If you look at the run of moves that the Cardinals have made at wide receiver over the last four years, it's incredible. You have the DeAndre Hopkins trade, right, which we all celebrated at the time. Not all of these moves are bad.

They have hit on a couple of these, but it's more so the sheer amount of plays they've made to go get receiver. So you have Christian Kirk in the second round of 2018. You have the DeAnda Hopkins trade. The Andy Isabella was drafted in the second round. Rondo Moore was drafted in the second round. You trade a first round pick this year to go out and get Marquise Brown. And now after all of this, after you lose Marquise Brown, you're like, all right, let's go make another trade and go get Robbie Anderson.

It's not for much, but they've done so many things and made so many plays to try to get players at this position. And I'm not really sure it matters that much. No, I agree. They're certainly not a receiver away. It's a baffling place to me. It just doesn't look right, doesn't feel right. And I understand why you do it. By the way, great move by Robbie Anderson.

I mean, do you watch Carolina the last couple weeks? That's a great move to get out of there. The sideline argument make it so that you can't be there. They got to get ready to. I don't know if Arizona is going to be. I can't believe they got two picks for him after what happened yesterday. I mean, I can't, it's not like his trade value was sky high. before that happened, but I would just assume that they would either cut him or

tank his value doing that. In fact, I thought it would be a seventh round pick for a seventh round pick or some nonsense like that. It's not a huge asking price, but they still got multiple picks for Robbie Anderson after what he did yesterday. Yeah, and I guess plug them in, Marquis Brown's hurting. And by the way, they have the short week with New Orleans on Thursday. So they're going to get DeAndre Hopkins back who's supposedly been working out in a local

park and they're going to have basically one practice before their game. I'm sure he's got a rapport. existing already. But this, depending how much he's going to play or what his usage is, I mean, be careful, right? The last thing you need for him is a hamstring. And then it's Robbie Anderson is your number one wide receiver. What can you explain to me what the Arizona Cardinals want to be? Wow. It's a good question. I mean, I guess I'm a little silent. Kyler signs a five-year $230 million contract this offseason. They give extensions to their head coach and their GM.

I know that DeAndre Hopkins has missed the first six games of the season. I am aware of that, but they traded a first round pick to go get Marquise Brown. They use all these second round picks on receivers. And even after that, the idea that what Marquis Brown's hurts when you go out and get Robbie Anderson now, you drafted Rondo more in the second round last year. If he's not somebody you can have as a full-time player, in your offense. Maybe you shouldn't have drafted him in the second round last year. Yeah. Was there a different staff or something?

All of these guys and all of these pieces that they've tried to accumulate, you have an offense that's currently 24th in dropback EPA with a quarterback that you just paid $230 million and gave him $189 million guaranteed. What is this? Where is this supposed to go? They've scored 10 points on the first three drives of games. That's 18 drives. They've got 10 points.

It's by far the lowest in the league. and it just looks like, I mean, what is the design of the offense? Is it just Kyler runs around and tries to throw to somebody? That's kind of what it feels like at times right now. And that, I've always felt for most of Kyler's run there, I've felt like their offense is a highlight tape, but you don't see all the bad plays. Like his, Kyler's at his best, his highlight tapes as good as anyone, but it's running around and dropping some ball in there. Amazingly, it's not so much the fundamentals or the structure of the offense or something you can rely upon.

And so are they to a point now where people have played them enough or the matchups aren't favorable enough in their way that they don't have a next counter move? Is that what it is? What do they do? I don't know what they do offensively in the short term or just in terms of roster construction and the direction of this thing in the long term. This is one of the oldest rosters in the league based on where things are right now and they're not competitive while having one of the oldest rosters in the league. Four of their starting offensive linemen right now are scheduled to hit free agency next year. It's not like they want to keep those players, but I just don't understand how any of this stuff is supposed to fit together. I truly don't.

It feels like it's just been a continual patch job of, oh, shoot, we need a receiver. Let's trade for, you know, let's trade for Robbie Anderson in a series of almost reactive moves like that. And here they are. It was a really hard game to watch from an Arizona perspective. Are you, if you're looking at the way a team has been built, how a team has spent resources, and what the timeline is supposed to reflect based on that plan. Is there a more misaligned franchise than the Arizona Cardinals right now? From being in the fourth year and your records improved every year and now you should be ready to break through?

Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Final year, final cheap year of your quarterback's rookie deal right before his extension is about to kick in and he's about to start getting paid an astronomical amount of money. You just gave an extension to your head coach and your general manager. and now you're heading in the wrong direction. Like, what are you supposed to be? What are you supposed to do with all this? I still think that the Russell Wilson contract and the trade for Russell Wilson

is the most misguided thing an NFL franchise did this year based on the returns at quarterback. But you can't be sitting here looking at the Kyler contract and everything else that's happening there being like, you know what? I feel really bullish about our future as a franchise. I totally agree. I mean, I just feel like, why would you go, I understand you have to pay a quarterback if you think you've got a good one. You're going to have to pay them eventually, but I don't know. What was he going to do, hold out the whole season?

I just, I don't like it at all. I don't like where they're at. And I don't know how they get out. I don't know who leads them out of this. Again, they just gave an extension to the head coach and the general manager. So theoretically, it would be them. But do you feel that Cliff Kingsbury or Kyler Murray are going to lead you out of where you're at right now? No.

And I always felt like we were kind of cruising to this endpoint where you look at the roster and it's Kyler and everything else is kind of crumbling down around it. The defense, again, has been helped together by like gum and paper clips since Van Joseph got there. Vance Joseph got there. And I think they're still doing that. I think the defense is playing fine and probably better than it has any right to. But again, this is an offense. that's in the bottom third of the league with an offensive-minded head coach and a quarterback that you just paid all of that money to. And even without DeAndre Hopkins, it still feels like it should be better than this based on the timeline and the way it was supposed to be trending.

And you're sitting here looking at it. I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. Yeah. I mean, what's the future for AJ Green look like? Pretty good? That's the, I mean, that's the moves that they made over the last couple years was going to get guys like that at that stage of their career. I mean, you think about the guys they added over the last offseason and a half, two off seasons. J.J. Watt is 33. Rodney Hudson's 33. A.J. Green is 34. Those are the types of players that they've

added to this team over the last couple years. Zach Ertz is 32. And when you're making moves like that, I think it's supposed to be with a short-term timeline and some short-term goals in mind. It's like, okay like what can we do with one two years of these guys how far can we push it can we get ourselves over the top and they're not even close to that and i remember me and nate after they lost the rams in the playoffs we're talking about just the lack of underlying talent on the entire roster underlying young talent they just didn't have that many building block players when you looked at who they were and that's what this still feels like they don't have any young building block players seemingly on both sides of the ball.

And when you don't have that and you don't have a huge schematic advantage and your quarterback isn't playing out of this world, I think you're left with a final product that looks like the 20, 22 Cardinals. Yeah. Wow. I'm looking at their, I'm actually looking at all of the people who've caught passes for them since Cliff's been there and looking at their ages and who the leaders are in receiving yards.

And number one is Christian Kirk, young guy 25, not there. Hopkins, of course, 30 good. Gerald's their third-leading receiver since he's been there. Obviously, he's gone at 39. A.J. Green is next. He's 34. Zach Hertz is next. He's 31.

See what Ron Dale Moore is the next wide receiver. He's 22, but they must not be that excited. When you're looking at Seattle, I mean, again, just chipping away, winning a field goal fest. Not the cleanest game for the Seahawks, but again, if you're just kind of stacking up wins in any way, your Seattle at this stage of things. You've got to feel pretty good about that. Absolutely, especially because they've played until yesterday. They've played pretty well offensively and just lost games.

They probably should have won. Interesting to me about them was they have been so bad on defense, right? I mean, they made Tassum Hill looks like a Hall of Famer. They're winning games having to score 40 points. And their improvement yesterday wasn't just because Arizona is terrible and opposite. It wasn't the only thing. they've been so bad up front. If you watch the first couple games of the year,

I had coaches texting me during the games. The primetime game was Denver. They're going to have to bench Daryl Taylor. There were texts coming in like that. And it was like, wait a minute, they're excited about Daryl Taylor. What's going on? Well, I think there was a little bit of a subtle shift to how they played defense yesterday. And they let their defensive linemen, I think, be a little bit more,

go after the quarterback, be up field, and turn loose. And they've been trying to make this transition away from the Pete Carroll defense to kind of the Vic Fangio principles with Clint Hurt as their deco coordinator and Sean DeSye there. But it's a little bit more of a complicated, nuanced scheme, and there's a little bit more Reed React up front, the gap and a half type stuff that we've heard a lot about. And they have a bunch of young players who were thinking, like Darrell Taylor's a classic example. they really liked him and he looked terrible. Well, what did he do yesterday? He sacked fumbled, Kyler Murray, right? There was a couple flashes during the game where I was like, oh, it looks a little bit better.

And maybe some of that's going to be because it's Arizona, but I'll be anxious to see how that shifts because if they just play average on defense with gains they've made on offense, they'll shoot. They could be in the mixed in that division, depending how the division plays out. They're all 500. I think that was sort of my takeaway for them in the game. And then also, like, some of the young defense players that they have, if they could stumble into some real dudes with the ways that they spent on those guys in the draft,

this season is just a win. Like, if Tariq Wollin ends up just becoming a real corner for them based on where they drafted him, like this could be one of those transformative off seasons where you could find potentially two starting tackles, a starting corner or two. If you do that in a single draft and you have all of those picks next year and all of the financial flexibility that they're going to have, this could be a reset moment that every rebuilding team is trying to find what this offseason was for the Seahawks potentially. You know, I think for a few years there, they lost their kind of mojo in bringing along young players. You know, and I think some of that is you had some established veterans, Russell Wilson, Bobby Wagner,

or KJ Wright. And so they leaned a little bit towards veterans. And I think they weren't bringing up young guys like this. To bring up young guys like a Tariq Willan, obviously they have to have some talent. But I think your coaches have to be all in on developing them too. And I think this is a classic player. Treek Wollen, when he was drafted, I forget who said it.

So one of the draft analysts said, this might be the rawest player and the history of raw players, you know. But Pete Carroll loved him and was personally invested in him. And if you've ever been to a Seahawks practice, like Pete Carroll will be after practice personally coaching the DBs, right, in various techniques. I think that's a fascinating component of this for them and for a Tariq Willan who's got, I think, an interception in four straight games making great plays on the ball. These aren't just, hey, the ball hit someone's helmet and he lucked into it.

This is he went up and took the ball away. And the defense, the quarterback's going to have to, you know, take note of him. So I think you're right with some of those players. There's still, you know, I think this was the year they were finally going to use Jamel Adams right. And so they lost him and I think are still finding their way there. But there are a few young players. And if they can just figure out a little bit up front, probably need some help there, but just not be gashed, they're going to be a competitive team. And if they won the Russell Wilson trade, just by getting rid of him, I mean, wow, that's pretty good.

Let alone the picks that you got. Let alone the picks. Let alone all of the things that you have to now rebuild your roster. I don't think you and I ever talked about this, for whatever reason, this off-season. I don't think we were ever on a show talking about this together. How long did you think, when they were making this move, when they traded Russell, they have all these picks now, and they're in some version of a rebuild, whatever,

however we want to frame it, whatever you want to call it. How long did you think Pete Carroll was going to be there, including this year? Did you think he was going to be there for four or five more years? I thought they had a two-year window to replace Russell Wilson. This would be the first year of that. So a two-year window and to really be going again, not this season but next year. And then as I would talk to people in the league from afar, so they sort of had the 30,000-foot view, the attitude after trading Russell Wilson kind of coming into this season, wow, they're really going to go with Gino Smith or Drew Locke or whatever.

Seattle was going to be a place that was going to open. That was a perception around the league. This is a place that would open after this year. here. And now I think there still could be a question of, hey, if let's say this season you don't have a quarterback you like and the season's bad, do you let Pete Carroll at his age be part of the process of finding a new one? But I think those answers are coming in an affirmative way for him. I shoot, yeah, he's 70, 71 or whatever, but he looks and kind of seems like he's 55 or 58, doesn't he? I mean, he just, he seems like he's 60 to me.

And if he's totally vindicated and validated on this, I don't see like him as being completely outdated or, you know, that he's lost a step. I mean, I think he's still a good leader of the team. So he may be here. Or what else is he going to do? If he's not too old, then why not? He's too old by his age on the calendar.

But if you just met Pete Carroll at a. a function somewhere, you wouldn't think that he's old. And that's kind of my question is just like what sort of timeline did he want to be on? What sort of timeline did the franchise want to be on with him being the one in charge? Because you look at the other coaches around the league that are around this age, Bill Belichick didn't do this. When Bill Belichick had to retool the Patriots roster, they spent money like it was going out of style last off season with the ways that they spent in free agency just to get back

to some sort of. competitive level. I mean, think about all of the guys, the John O'Smiths and the Hunter Henrys and the Nelson Aguars and all of the money they threw around. The Seahawks didn't do that. The Seahawks rebuilt this thing in a much more patient way. And maybe that's because the head coach and general manager in New England are both the same septuagenarian.

In Seattle, at least John Schneider maybe has a little bit of a longer view on this. So they're trying to rebuild in a more traditional and I guess enviable way. But the way that they've tried to do this and how they've. they've tried to rebuild it back up from the ground, I think does seem to be working based on some of the pieces that they found so far. But here's the deal. Pete loves young guys. You know, I think Belichick is great as a coach who can play any kind of scheme.

I think for the most part, we would say sometimes he values a little bit more of a veteran player, right? And some of the things they do defensively maybe lends itself to that. And I think Pete always had the, hey, let's be simple, play fast, young, excited. This year they switched to a scheme that was going to make it a little bit harder on the younger guys, and I think we're going to see if that plays out. But I think Pete loves to be with the young players. And, you know, when you talked about those pieces like Therick Willan, they have two good young rookie tackles, too. Yes. Abe Lucas, Charles Cross, those were good players. If you watch them kind of week to week, I mean, shoot, that's as good as they've had in a long time.

You kind of want to see more. And now we are understanding that, hey, as great as Russell Wilson was, you know, he limited the offense in certain ways. His benefit. outweighed that, but now at the end, maybe the last year or two, maybe he was more limiting it, right? And so now, whether or not Gino Smith's the future, you can see that the offense can be something different too. And whether that's what Gino Smith or somebody else, I feel like there's a brighter light at the end of this tunnel than anyone realized. That's just the surplus value you can create when you're building your roster. If you come out of a draft with two starting corners and two starting tackles almost independently of where they're

drafted. Again, that can be transformative. It can be a transformational draft if you get starters at those four positions. And there's a chance with Tariq Will and Kobe Bryant and the two tackles that the Seahawks did that in a single year. It's been six games. I'm not willing to write that in pen quite yet. But we are trending in a very positive direction if you're a Seahawks fan.

I would better bet on it than against it. I mean, for sure, I think the tackles are going to be fine. And how could you not feel good about Tarek Wollen? I mean, with the plays that he's making, Kobe Bryant also had a forced fumble yesterday. So it is early, but man, all the signs are like, you don't see any reason to doubt it on those four. And you're right, those are four pretty good pieces. I think there's some other players on the roster that, you know, they need to see come along too. We saw De Eskridge make a couple plays yesterday.

The running back, Kenneth Walker, you know, I think they were really upset to lose Rashad Penny, but it looks pretty good. This is my own personal biases coming out is that I was talking about this transformational draft that the Seahawks might have, and I just totally forgot about the running back who looked fucking awesome yesterday. But that's a good. Think of that, though, Robert. Like, I don't know.

Yeah, think of that. That's pretty good that we forgot maybe the one that people noticed the most. That guy looks legit. And the one run that he had, the huge run that he had, the cut to get back outside and just like the way that his body moves is a runner. I mean, he is a really, really good natural running back. And the fact that now they have him with Rashad Penny gone is huge because it seems that he can step in and just give them a lot of juice at that position for the rest of the season. I was watching him. And, you know, at their, you know, I think it was at halftime, they put Sean Alexander in the ring of honor.

You know, and I thought, geez, that's a pretty cool day because this this young guy looks like he's going to be. carrying the ball for them for a while. All right. Last one here. Jags, Colts. The Colts knock off the Jaguars, 34 to 27. The Colts are now 3-2-1. Mike, I have no idea what to do with the goddamn Colts.

I truly do not know what to do with this team. Yeah. Yeah, it was a great win for them. You know, it was just the type of game that they have been losing. And I'll tell you, there was a moment in the fourth quarter when they had a first down, they were kind of getting into field goal range. They're down two. and Matt Ryan comes up from under center

and trips and falls on his butt. And I'm like, they're going to lose this game. But a great game, a great game on third down, I think Matt Ryan was 11 of 14 on third down. He's had some under high completion rate third downs. But that play at the end to win the game, touchdown pass, awesome, he's getting hit. I mean, I think that's what they envision this would look like.

Critical win for them. Their record's better than they've played, right? I mean, they're three, two, and one now? They're three, two, and one. And you could make an argument that before this week, they had been the worst offense in the NFL, maybe outside of Chicago. And they did it without Jonathan Taylor, without naming Himes. I mean, I think it was, this was a game that I thought they were going to probably lose. Just coming in, I just had just Jacksonville, they give them problems, Jaguars have been a little salty.

You're without those backs. And they almost did. I mean, Jacksonville almost did win the game, but it was a great win for them. So I've been kind of thinking in my mind is, you know, I think one of the things that Chris Ballard's done well, but then has maybe bit them as they've gone along and the expectations have gotten higher is to be patient. And they have not been a team that's gone out there and made the move to get a left tackle or made the move to get speed at wide receiver. They didn't even make a move at quarterback. They sort of waited until Matt Ryan was available. They were willing to almost have nothing.

Is that going to be sort of a metaphor for this season that they didn't? weather how horrible they looked. It's been a metaphor for every season, Mike. They do this every year. This bad, though? It's never been this bad. But this idea that there is, but that's always what happens.

And I, they looked so bad for the first five games. And I think that a huge part of that was the way the offensive line was playing. And with the inability to find a workable five along the offensive line. And again, to their credit, but also to their detriment, they're just going to sit there and be like, you know what, we'll figure it out. You know, we'll get to a five that works for us and we'll try out some different stuff. And they've had a different combination pretty much every single week. And beyond that, they've rotated guys in and out pretty much every single week at a couple different positions.

So they come into this game. And after having Matt Pryor at right tackle last week and Braden Smith at right guard, they swap it. and Braden Smith is back at right tackle, where he probably should be, by the way, because he's one of the highest paid right tackles in the league and getting worse at two positions never made sense to me. They move Matt Pryor into right guard.

They start Bernard Raymond at left tackle, their third round pick. He's supposed to rotate with Dennis Kelly, who is a career swing tackle in the league, pretty much got the most work he's ever gotten when he was with the Titans for a couple years. Kelly comes into the game, starts playing well enough that they decide the rotation at left tackle was off. Dennis Kelly is going to play for the rest of the game.

And over the course of this game, they got the best most workable offensive line combination that they have had all season. Clearly all year, they thought, you know, by week six, we'll get Dennis Kelly in there left tackle. But that's what this team does, is that they're just like, you know, we'll figure it out. And eventually they do usually figure it out to a point. It usually comes to a place where it is workable. And this was workable.

It wasn't great. Like, Matt Pryor is still not very good and had some tough moments at guard in this game. Dennis Kelly got dinged with a hold. But they got their best left tackle play. I think they've gotten all season. And if they continue to roll with this five, at least the offense can look functional. And outside of the play with the line, I think there are two other things that jumped out. Pretty much scrapping anything under center, operated on.

exclusively from the shotgun in this game. And the other thing that I was like, okay, that's more like it. Matt Ryan, in weeks one through five, attempted 16 passes between the hash marks. 16. In five games, okay? 11 in this game in week six alone. So almost as many throws in the middle of the field in this game that he had over the first five games combined. And when you think about what Michael Pittman is, I want Michael

pitman on crossers. I want him when with it, the ball in his hands with him moving laterally is where he can really hurt you. He is a slashing player. And when you combine that skill set with what Alec Pierce can give you outside the numbers and Kyle and Granson getting a little bit more involved in the passing game here, this is, this has the makings of at least a workable NFL passing offense that didn't seem to exist for the first fire games of the season. So again, I don't know what to make of this. It still is. hard to be that good on third down all the time. Absolutely.

We just haven't seen it. Obviously, we cut him some slack without Jonathan Taylor. I mean, he's, you know, he should, maybe there will be a point as the season goes long later where they have that going to. And it doesn't look so hard for Matt Ryan. I feel like it looked impossibly hard for him for times this year to where I thought he was done. Everyone saw it on national TV in the Denver game at times. Yesterday, he was taking some of those hits, but also delivering the ball. And that's something that I'm not sure.

I don't know if there's an adjustment on the route depth or something, but he's always had to step into his throws in recent years to get anything on him or he was toast. And I thought there were some plays yesterday, including the play for the winning touchdown. If you watch him, he's getting folded. I mean, he's taking a shot in his lower legs. He's getting folded. And I have felt like a lot of these older quarterbacks, they really are lean and they're really in shape. but they look like they're going to break in half.

You know, they look skinny. And that's just what he's looked like when he's taking some of those hits. And I thought yesterday he made the plays on some of those hits and some critical third down situations where he stood in there and was able to deliver the ball even down the field without stepping into his throw. So whatever allowed him to do that, I think it was a big difference maker because he has not been able to do that in recent years or this season. I don't, it's never going to be, I don't think it'll love to be that good on third down again

over the course of the season. It's very hard to play that well on third down. And the final result, I think, is it could have gone either way. But the idea that play in and play out, they looked like a functional NFL passing offense is an improvement over where it was certainly last week and at other times throughout this season. So I think that strides have been made there. I no longer want to just jump out a window after watching them play the way that I did at certain other times this season so far. Here's the stress. Okay, so I'm going to tell you what percent of Matt Ryan's pass attempts are thrown this season when trailing by each quarter of the game, okay? So in the first quarter, you start out tied, right?

Everybody start out tied. So it's only 31 percent, but that's still a lot because you start tied. Yes. Okay, so in the second quarter. They went down by two scores in this game. Again, again, yeah. I mean, does Jim Rissai even show up for the first half? I wouldn't.

The second quarter is Matt Ryan's pass a team. cents, 84% of them are thrown in the second quarter of all trailing. The third quarter is 92.5% and the fourth quarter is 92.3%. So think of the duress and the stress level that creates. Because when you watch these games, you notice when it turns into pure pass, the Miami team, they're throwing an interception, right? Kyler Murray suddenly thrown an interception. It starts to look a lot different.

It starts to get real hard in those situations. Well, that's Matt Ryan's life. 93% of the time in the second half when he throws a pass their trailing. Unbelievable. They put themselves in horrible positions. And again, this is not a great performance by any stretch. A lot of chunk plays on the ground from the Jags. They ran the ball efficiently.

I think there are still questions about some of the pieces on defense. Isaiah Rogers has looked better than Brandon Faison at times. Do they need to make a change there with who their starting corner is? we'll see what happens when Shack Leonard gets back. There's still a ton of questions about this Coltsday. But the fact that they look like they could move the ball a little bit consistently and not get their quarterback

killed, I do think is an improvement. And when you've been horrific and you're above 500 after six games, that's really the huge bonus. Yes. So that's, can they keep figuring this stuff out and what does it mean if they keep figuring it out? Like what, how

can they move beyond functional and get to like pretty good? I don't, that might be a little bit too much to ask, but this is one step in the right direction. On the other side, watching this game from the Jags, their passing offense has just become extremely frustrating. This is a team that really does not have much juice at receiver, and you can feel that in the way that they play. 50% of Trevor Lawrence's pass attempts in this game came at or behind the line of scrimmage. 50%. Wow. The only quarterbacks in the only quarterbacks in league yesterday for whom that was true were him and p j walker they were the only ones higher than

38% p j walker had a negative a dot in that game yesterday for carolina negative 80% of his throws came behind the line of scrimmage so when you're in the same zip code as the p j walker led carolina panthers offense it's probably time to retool some stuff 36% of lawrence's targets went more than five air yards yesterday. 36%. So I've got a stat column. You can add this in, maybe in one of your reports. I've got the average air yards to the sticks, right?

So if it's third and ten and we throw it five yards short of the sticks, that's a minus five. You see how that works? So I love that in relation to where we need to go to get a first down. Yesterday, he had Trevor Lawrence average pass was minus 5.4 yards short of the sticks. And I'm going to, which by the way, the worst. for the season this year is Matt Ryan at minus 3.2. But in a game, this feels like five yards behind the sticks is not good. And it's by far the shortest for Jacksonville in a game this

season and probably also reflects and illustrates the frustration that you were feeling. PJ Walker, by the way, yesterday was minus 8.3 yards to the sticks on average. That's not real offense. And that's the problem is that even if you're sniffing that, you're starting to trend toward not real offense. And that's what the Jags passing game felt like yesterday. So if they're struggling to find anything vertically down the field, I think they're going to have a real time, a real hard time operating. The couple splash plays in the run game, they're clearly trying to get their hands or

the ball in the hands of their guys that actually have some pop to them, Agnew, ETN, trying to get them involved. But the lack of just anything down the field and how compressed this offense feels right now, they're going to struggle as long as it continues to feel that way. Yep. It was a rough game for them. And I think, you know, I'm trying to be careful with them and the week-to-week evaluation of Trevor Lawrence because it, I feel like it is going to be up and down and we have to

sort of remember where they've been. But there are times when you look at it and it's frustrating. All right. You got to get out of here. That's all we got for today. Mike, very much appreciate the time. Thank you for doing this. excited to do this with you every week.

And as we mentioned before, people should be looking forward to the football GM coming to you out on Thursday mornings in the athletic football show feed. I'm excited to do this because this is my first, you know, these are these games here. This is, I can't get my process better. We're going to get better every week. Next week I can't wait. We'll get the games down and love the love sort of taking a look at some games that maybe we didn't give as much attention to the day before. That's what we do here at the Monday hangover. We dig into the dumpster.

And sometimes that's what you need to do the morning after a weekend full of games. Guys, thank you very much for listening. Really appreciate the time. We will be back tomorrow in the meantime. If you could please subscribe to the show on YouTube, we'd really appreciate it. We're doing our Thursday night recap pods solely on YouTube this year. We will do one for the Saints Cardinals game this Thursday, me and Nate. So please go subscribe now.

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