The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Offseason Interview Series: Browns GM Andrew Berry + Analyzing the Aaron Rodgers Drama with Matt Schneidman

Episode Date: June 11, 2021

The Offseason Interview Series continues as Robert welcomes Cleveland Browns GM Andrew Berry to discuss his philosophy on building a team, the draft, analytics and more. Plus Robert welcomes The Athletic's Packers beat reporter Matt Schneidman to update us on the Aaron Rodgers situation and where things could be headed with his future as a Green Bay Packer. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Really exciting show for you guys today. Brown's general manager, Andrew Berry. He's going to be joining us a little bit later on the show. We chatted earlier this week. We had a bunch of different topics.

We only had about 20 to 25 minutes with Andrew. He is obviously a very busy man. So we wanted to give you guys a little bit more for this episode. And I have been meaning to have this next person on for a little while. And this felt like a perfect topic. opportunity. Packers writer Matt Steinman is here to chat a little Aaron Rogers. Matt, how are you doing?

I'm good, Rob. How are you? Appreciate you having me on. I'm honored to make my debut on your fantastic show. Get out of here. It is a very busy time here in Green Bay, so it's a nice timely appearance. So it's funny because when you

have people that are covering teams that are in the news at times of the year that are typically a little quieter, I always feel for those people, because this is supposed to be a time where it's like, you know, OTAs and you're checking up on who's looking good and who's there and who's not. And typically it's a fairly casual experience as a reporter. And you are now on call about 24 hours a day looking for hidden context in Miles Teller's wife Instagram posts. And I'm sure you just never assumed that would be your life in early June 2021.

No, I didn't. But listen, the Packers are always in the news, especially. with their MVP quarterback who's you could say the most newsworthy person in the sport over his career. I'd never thought, you're right, I think, I never thought I'd be checking Kaylee Tellers. I think that's how you pronounce her name. I apologize if it's not her Instagram to see what Aaron Rogers is up to on vacation, what Taylor Swift songs he's strumming along to on the guitar, what wine he's drinking. But here we are.

and he's not really talking publicly, so we're kind of looking for any context, clues that we can find. And I guess it's just part of the job that the slow time of the year isn't really slow here in Green Bay. And I know this is supposed to be the vacation time of the year, but I guarantee you I'm going to be on some beach on the Jersey shore or something in a couple weeks. And Aaron Rogers is going to come out and say something,

just because that's how it always works. It is how it always works. I will say I appreciate Aaron Rogers. and Kaylee Teller and all of the posting because it really got my gears turning about where I wanted to go on vacation this summer. So I thank them for getting that ball rolling. I definitely checked some Hawaii flights after I saw some of those posts. That's not what we're doing because it's impossible to rent a car there now and like a million other things. Unless you're Aaron Rogers, it's hard to have a comfortable, convenient Hawaiian vacation in this moment. But enough about travel

plans. Let's talk about the state of the Aaron Rogers relationship and what's going on there right now. So let's just do a check-in. Right now, where do things stand between the Packers and Aaron Rogers as you understand them? As I understand, they're still in the standoff. And I know that's not much of an update, but right now it's still, he is disappointed as we were able to read between the lines in his comments to Kenny Maine on Sports Center a couple weeks ago with how the front office manages things from philosophical standpoint. We don't know if it's strictly the Jordan Love Pick or strictly releasing J. Cumrow, but I think it's more of how Brian Gutakunsen, that's who the beef is with here, Brian Gutakins, the general manager of the Packers since 2018, how he goes about business,

how he treats people, that's a word, people that Aaron Rogers used multiple times with Kenny Maine. and the Packers insist that they're not going to trade him. Aaron Rogers, as of right now, seems to be dug in to the fact that he does not want to play for the Packers again, at least how they're currently philosophically constructed. I'm not saying that he's demanding Brian Gutikin to be fired for him to come back. But I think the Packers are more dug in to their side than Rogers is his, but I guess we'll just find out. in the coming weeks.

Here's my read on the situation from afar, and based on the conversations I've had with Aaron Rogers in the past. When you're talking to Aaron Rogers about X topic, it can be a football related, like nuts and bolts football stuff, motion, protection control, things like that. He will just drop little nuggets about how much autonomy other quarterbacks around the league have in those certain scenarios. He is incredibly in tune with where he's standing. He stands compared to his peers, I think, in every single aspect of playing quarterback in the NFL.

He'll just, I mean, there are times that I've been talking about stuff and he'll just mention how much of an imprint Ben Rathesberger has on the offense in Pittsburgh. Like, he'll just drop that randomly without any sort of provocation. My understanding here, and I think my hunch here, is that he has watched what has happened at various other places around the league, whether it be in New Orleans with Drew Breeze, and how hard they went for it in the last few years of Drew's career, whether it's been in Tampa Bay over the last 12 months or so and the amount of input, solicitation, everything that Tom Brady has given

to the moves they've made, the choices they've made to people they've even added. Ben Rathesberger has been allowed to play out the string in Pittsburgh on his own accord, even though he played poorly last year. And I think Aaron Rogers is sitting there looking around being like, why not me? Why haven't I been able to pull the strings in the, same way and dictate my situation, the situation of the franchise, and everything else in the way that some of these other guys have been. Whether that's deserved it or not is something we can talk

about. But my hunch is what happened with Tom Brady over the last 12 months. I don't think Aaron Rogers is as upset as he is if that hadn't happened in Tampa. Do you think that's fair? I think that's fair. I think, listen, we both know him fairly well, I'd say. And he's very astute to kind of like you said, what's going on around the league. And, you know, if the Packers had made the Super Bowl, would we be here right now? I don't know. I still think we might be. I think anything short of a Super Bowl win would have put us put us in this situation.

Now, maybe it's just coincidence that Rogers goes on McAfee's show on draft night in 2020 and says it would be cool, I'm paraphrasing here. It would be cool if we got an offensive weapon for the first time in 15 years. The last time the Packers drafted an offensive weapon, obviously, was Aaron Rogers in 2005 in the first round. Before that, it was Javon Walker in 2002. Last time they drafted a receiver in the first round. And they did go out and get an offensive weapon. They got another quarterback.

And then Rogers compliments Jake Kumrow in training camp in 2020. Next day, they cut him. And then later in the season, I forget what game it was after. It was first half of the season. We were asking Rogers about a player on the roster after a game they won. And he goes, I'm not going to, you know, stump for any player. Last time I did that, he ended up in Buffalo, referring to Kumero, who was cut and then signed with Buffalo. So I know maybe the signs weren't obvious that this was coming, his displeasure with management and how they've maybe supported him.

Listen, anyone who says they haven't gotten Rogers enough help is assonine. They have the best offensive line in the league. That's not what it is. That's not what it is at all. It's not that. No, it's not the specific personnel moves. because he has a good wide receiver core. You go back a couple of years ago when he had

Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams before his prime, Randall Cobb, Greg Jennings. I mentioned the offensive line, the running game. They had one of the best running games in the league last year. I think this is just about how the general manager goes about making some of those moves and not including a quarterback who, in my estimation, believes he should be circled in the loop.

But as we both know, that's just not how the Packers do things. And that's the, thing, right? That is at the core of the problem. And it doesn't have to be, he's in the draft room. I had a general manager tell me his story last year. And I won't say who it was, but it was his team had a high profile quarterback. There was a situation with one of the, it was like the fourth receiver on the team where the guy fucked up something small. And the gym was like, that's it. That's it. I'm cutting him. Like it's just, it's over. And the quarterback asked him not to. And they didn't end up cutting the player. This quarterback was very good. And,

He was one of the best five to ten quarterbacks in the league. He's not Aaron Rogers. Aaron Rogers doesn't want to pick the players, I would assume, but a little bit of insight and a little bit of, hey, why don't we loop you in on this small decision and see what you think about it? I think that is at the core of this. That's what he wants, but that's not how the Packers do business. And it does feel like that is the issue, is that this is a franchise. Brian Kunkoos has been here for longer than you've been alive, I think. in Green Bay.

I mean, it's... barely. So, but it's close, right? I was born in 95. I think he's been there since 98, I believe. Yes. So there you go. So from the time that you were a toddler,

Bryant Gunkutz has been in Green Bay. And I think that sometimes is what happens with this organization, right? Is there's this small town provincial feel where the organization is the most important thing, where the colors and the logo and the history becomes the thing that matters the most, and they think that is what will sustain them. And my feeling on this is that structure and that set of priorities and the hierarchy and how it works, that is what is frustrating him. I agree.

And listen, this is only my third year covering the team, but just listening to guys that you know, like Rob and Jason, who have been covering this team for 25. Rob Domovsky, Jason Wilde, who have been covering this team for 25 years and just hearing what they've had to say, listen, Brian Gutakuntz is Ted Thompson. He has out and said he has a lot of Ted Thompson in him.

Like you said, the player is not above the team. And if you need a concrete example of that, if Rogers did present the ultimatum, and as far as we know, Brian Gutakunz has said, he said this on after the third, third night of the draft that Rogers has not presented him this ultimatum, that it's him or Goudicombs. I know Charles Robinson reported, and I have no reason to refute this, that that Rogers

would only consider coming back if Goudicunds was not GM. Packers aren't doing that, but guess what? Would the Packers be better off with just Rogers or just Goudicunds? Probably just Rogers, but they're not going to do that. Mark Murphy is not going to say, you know what? we're going to do what's going to make us a better team and keep Aaron Rogers and get another general manager, whether it be Reggie McKenzie or someone else that has history in Green Bay and has had success as a GM in this league. Because that's not the way they work. There's a very clear hierarchy in Green Bay that they're going to follow. And as you mentioned, I think that is in part why we have found ourselves in this situation.

But guess what? If there's a quarterback that should maybe force a little bit of a bending of that hierarchy, it's Aaron Rogers. Remember last year, David, maybe it was two years ago. Time makes no sense anymore. It was two years ago because it was the last time I was in the Packers' Soccer. And I was talking to David Bactiari about some of the little things that Matt Liffle floored when he got there. And he was telling me about some of the aesthetic changes that were made to areas of the building. And it included the offensive line room where they swapped out.

pictures of older players from previous years for pictures of current players. And that may seem like a small thing. But that's what we're talking about here, is that the organization has this dogmatic attachment to what has come before and the things that have happened in the history. And even though Brian Goonkutst is not Ted Thompson and he's not Ron Wolf, they come from the same place. There is an organizational belief that we have done this before with Rogers

and far, we can do it again and the organization wins out. And that is how we have reached this point. So I know you don't have any particular insight here as none of us do. Do we think there is a world where he sits out the season? Or do you think that is still a bridge too far? Because based on what Sando wrote today, which I agree with everything he wrote, you play out this scenario and you make your bets based on what is most likely to happen. And I still think what is most likely to happen is that Aaron Rogers plays for the Packers this year and Brian Coon Coots does not want to be the guy who traded Aaron Rogers. I have said 65% chance I think he plays. I think it's significantly higher than that right now. I think Aaron Rogers will be the starting quarterback for the

Green Bay Packers Week 1 in New Orleans for several reasons. I think, and this is just my vague read on the situation, this is not anything Aaron Rogers has told me because, again, I have not talked to him directly about this situation. I think he is willing to come back for the people he said he loves on Kenny Main Show, the coaches, he loves the coaching staff specifically. Matt LaFleorne offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett, his teammates, Devante Adams, David Bocciari, Mercedes-Louis, Mason Crosby, Aaron Jones, you name it, and the fans. And listen, Aaron Rogers is a superstar among superstars,

but he really, I believe, does care about what the fan base he has played for for the past 16 years thinks of him. And if I have my finger accurately on the pulse of Packer fans, they're starting to maybe turn against him a little bit because they see that, you know, this is really carrying on. It's becoming a saga. It's affecting this innocent 22-year-old quarterback named Jordan Love who did not ask to be put in this situation. It's putting Matt LaFleur in an awkward situation, having to answer questions about this every day. And they're saying, you know what? You can't get over your beef with one man to come play for something that's much bigger. Then,

not to use the swear word here, but then screw off. And not all fans are thinking. that. And this goes back to what Mark Murphy said in his mailbag on Packers.com. It's dividing the fan base, which is a wild thing to say if you're the team president publicly. But I think it is a little bit. So I think with time and maybe convincing from Adams and Bactiari and Lewis and LaFleur, Rogers comes to a point where he says, you know what, I'm going to put aside my feelings for the GM, hope we can change kind of the culture and the way the front office goes about things. But if we can't, I'm going to come back and play for all those people, the coaches, the teammates, the fans that I said I love, at least for one more year. Let's be men about this. It'll only be awkward if we

make it awkward. And let's play for more than just the GM. I could see that happening because I do not. That's the scenario I see in Aaron Rogers returning. If you ask me for a scenario in which I see the Packers trading him, I can't think of one. You simply cannot, like you said, have that bullet point on your resume if you're Brian Gutakins that you traded the reigning MVP. And One of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. One of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. And something Sando wrote that I agreed with wholeheartedly is, it's bad if Aaron Rogers sits out this season and makes the Packers worse.

It's even worse if you trade him and the Packers are bad while Aaron Rogers is making another team better. I totally agree. And that's what it comes down to. What sort of gesture on the Packers side of this do you think would help the process along? If they gave him a contract that tied them to him for the next two seasons, if they made him the highest paid quarterback in the league. Do you think that that has any sort of impact or do you think we're past that at this point? I think it might have a slight impact.

Now, Schaefter has reported or he reported in his draft day story that maybe the Packers drag their feet a little bit on the extension stuff to start the offseason. And then they came in late, at least this is what it seemed from Schaefter's report, that they came in maybe later with the offer that Rogers wanted. And he seemed to say, you know what? too late. I think at the end of the day, what Aaron Rogers wanted entering this offseason and might still want, I don't know specifically if the Packers have offered this, is financial assurance that he'll be the quarterback here throughout the duration of his contract. I mean, entering this

off season, he had one year left of guaranteed money and just conventional timetables for when rookie quarterbacks take over. They don't sit for three years anymore like Rogers does. I believe Goudicunz intended for Love to sit for two years and then take over next year. But Rogers, rightfully so, did not want to be a sitting duck this season. He's smart. He saw between the lines. He knew that Goudicunds wanted Jordan Love to take over in 2022. Now it did throw a wrench into this timetable that I'm describing that Rogers won MVP.

I don't think Goudicunds thought Rogers had that left in him. So he would say, we'll have two more above average seasons of Aaron Rogers than have Jordan Love takeover. Easy to move on. or easy, relatively speaking. Easier. That's not happening anymore. So Roger said, you know what? You're not moving on for me after this season.

I'll move on first. But now the Packers are in desperation mode. So I think it could help ease this tension a little bit if they showed some good faith and said, you know what, we'll give you a two-year extension, keep you under contract for the next five years. And this is just me speaking off the top of my head. and guarantee you enough money to make sure you're the quarterback here for at least the next three seasons. And that gives them time to not exercise Jordan Love's fifth year option, but let him play out the four years on his rookie deal. And then after the 2023 season, when those guarantees would run out on Aaron Rogers' contract, have the option to extend Jordan Love or not.

or just let him walk in free agency. Now, would that look like a bust and a terrible pick? Yes, but it already does. It already does. But at the same time, sometimes you got to let your ego take a hit and say, we made a mistake. We got to go with what's best for the franchise and do this with Aaron Rodgers' contract. Is Brian Gutakun's too prideful to do that?

He might be. And that's where we're at a crossroads here is, will Brian Gutakun swallow his pride and do what's best, for the organization and do everything that I just described, or stick to his guns and say, I'm going to hope as hell that this draft pick pans out. He could because I don't think he likes Aaron Rogers, and I don't think Aaron Rogers likes Brian Gutakun.

So we're at a crossroads here. Where is Jordan Love at right now? And where are their feelings about Jordan Love? Because in my opinion, if Jordan Love was just lighten it up right now, and they were like, this is surefire, we can still be a playoff team, a really good team, he can hit the ground running. It changes the complexion of this entire argument from Green Bay side and changes the way

they have to think about it. But it doesn't seem like that's where they are right now. Right. And listen, I understand that Jordan Love is in a no-win situation and he's not expected to play like a starter. Remember, like I said, he wasn't expected to start this season. He was expected to start next season, at least what it seems. He did not have a preseason last year.

He did not dress for a regular season game. He barely got any reps in practice because he was the third stringer behind Rogers and Tim Boyle. That's why now we're recording this on Wednesday, Tuesday's first mandatory minicamp. Jordan Love took the first 16 snaps of team periods. And, you know, I think Rob said this. In all the years he's been covering the Packers, he's never seen something like that. It's normally, you know, the starter gets four or five reps. The backup then gets four or five and the third stringer gets whatever is left over.

No, Jordan Love got 16 straight reps, then Blake Bordell's got two, then Jordan Love went back in for nine more, I believe it was yesterday. And Matt LaFleur said after practice, listen, this kid, he's 22, didn't have a preseason, didn't play in the regular season, he's got to get as many reps as possible. And with Aaron Rogers gone, he's allowed to. Now, yesterday, he was way off with a lot of his throws. The arm strength is there. The mobility's there. but his accuracy at least struggled yesterday. Now, when I go to practice here in 15 minutes,

could he be spot on and we'll write about that? Sure. This is going to be a day by day thing. And I know people don't like some of them, how we'll focus in on Jordan Love every day, but guess what? That's the nature of what we're in right now. Everyone cares about Jordan Love.

Everyone cares about what he's doing because of what's going on with Aaron Rogers. What the Packers and their coaches and management have said that Jordan Love has a long way to go. And I don't think that's just coach speaker, cliche speak. I really do think he has a long way to go. And rightfully so, nobody knows how game ready he is because he hasn't played in a game. He should have a long way to go.

He hasn't, you know, done anything notable in his career even in practice. So I think right now everyone's just hoping and praying that Aaron Rogers comes back and they don't have to see a day when Jordan Love is the starting quarterback for the Packers Week 1 in New Orleans. Honestly, at this point, I would think they want Blake Bortles in that role more just because he has that experience. And on that note, man, just what a time. What a time to be alive. Nash-Styman, thank you very much for the time, my friend. I hope for you that you are not on a beach somewhere when this gets resolved. I hope it happens when you are standing on the sideline outside of the Hudson Center.

Isn't that what it's called? Don Hudson Center, soon to be renamed the Devante Adams Center because of the 19 touchdowns he'll have with Jordan Lovett quarterback this year. With no seating, that's always been one of my grips with Packers Training Camp.

Is there no one to sit and my bad back in the sun always has some issues? I'm excited to be back there. I'm excited to see you soon. Hopefully this gets resolved by training camp. If not, we will definitely be keeping an eye on it. Match Diamond, please go read his work on the athletic. He is coming to you with updates all the time

on this, on all things, Packers. Definitely worth reading. Thanks for the time, but we'll talk to you soon. Appreciate you, my man. Talk to you soon. This is the fourth entry in the offseason interview to you that we're doing. And I'm really excited to welcome to the program, Brown's general manager, Andrew Barry. Andrew, how are you, man? I'm doing well. I appreciate you having me, Robert. I am very excited to have this conversation because we've talked a lot about your guys's offseason over the last couple months, some of the moves you've made, the plan that you guys had. And I want to dig into that. But first and foremost, I want to go back to, to, last year, you taking this job. Because I think one of the more interesting things about your

tenure here is that it's the second time you've been here. So obviously you were here from 2016 to 2018 before when Sasha Brown was here and John Dorsey was here. What made you come back? Why did you feel like this was the right place for you to take this opportunity? It sounds a little bit hokey, but it really was about the people. You know, my three years here, we went through a lot as an organization. But quite frankly, developed. helped a lot of, you know, really great relationships, you know, across the organization, not just in football operations. And people that were smart, talented, great to work with, and honestly just great people to be around on a daily basis. So that was, that was first and

foremost. And then really the second piece is, you know, the opportunity to work with with Kevin. You know, Kevin and I had got familiar with one another through the head coaching search process in 2019, you know, kept up a pretty good relationship. And to have an opportunity to really partner with him to, you know, really attack the challenge of team building was something that was really attractive to me. And he had been hired about two weeks before you were, correct? So he was already there. And how did you guys align? What aspects of how you saw it? Do you feel like you guys just clicked on immediately?

Yeah, I think it's a couple different things. I think, you know, number one, just like on a personal level. Like our foundation or values, personal values are very similar. I think number two. I believe, guys. I think certainly number two, how we see the game and how we believe in, you know, in winning, you know, building the roster, building the team. And then three, how we wanted the organization to operate on a day-to-day basis,

is how we wanted the staffs across football operations to collaborate and work together and the type of people that we wanted to bring into the building. What aspects of that, the collaboration, what specifically, can you give me an example? Yeah, so to me, one of the biggest, I think, challenges during my first time in Cleveland, I've mentioned multiple times, it's just a back of alignment from, from year to year to year, what was in terms of, you know, input in the draft process or how we're going to run the day-to-day operations of the team or, you know, who should have, you know, which responsibility with within football operations. Oftentimes, you know, perhaps leadership wasn't quite on the, on the same page

in those, in those, in those areas. And so when Kevin and I started, we really wanted to foster an environment where we had a number of diverse perspectives. We had a number of people that could that could truly work together and bring their expertise to allow for robust discussion, and then the best decisions to be made, whether it's on the field or when building the team. Structurally, how do you do that? Is it meetings? Is it like a weekly kind of schedule you sit with? Are you in more meetings together?

Is there cross-pollination of this conversation? How do you actually do that logistically? Yeah, I think it's a combination of all the things that you mentioned, Robert. So I actually think it starts with the mentality of the people that you bring into the organization. It's a lot of easier to be collaborative when you have people who have a growth mindset and are collaboratively oriented. But you're right that there are structural components, whether it's, hey, here's how we're going to build out our draft meetings with scouts, coaches, our research group, our contract management team. Or, hey, here are the weekly checkpoints that we're going to have this cross section of people across football operations for decision A, decision B, decision C, whether it's roster on the field or just, you know, day-to-day operations. So I think it's, I think it number one starts with the people that you bring into the building.

and then number two, creating some of those structured touch points where you are bringing a number of different relevant perspectives to the table. So I was going to ask you what you thought the biggest mistake you guys made with first time around was. You just answered that. So you made a joke after the second night of the draft at the beginning of your press conference. That was very esoteric, but that I appreciated it. You said, are we having a fever dream that the Browns just trade up for a linebacker in the draft?

And that's funny to me because I know your guys' organizational value. how you think about positional value, and the fact that your background, the way that you see all of this stuff, trading up is not usually in your DNA. So I'm very interested in what goes into that process. So when you're watching him fall down the draft, is there a point where you know the capital you have to give up and you're comfortable giving up that capital? Is there a line that has to be crossed? I think that's largely fair, Robert. I mean, you know, I don't know that there are, there are certainly guiding principles that, you know, we abide by, and really every organization, right? Every organization has their philosophy in terms of how they want to build their team,

how they want to manage their resources, you know, what their positional priorities are. You know, we're no different in that regard. That being said, there are just no absolutes. There are some situations like, you know, with Jeremiah this past year where, you know, we will break maybe a long-term trend. But it does to what you've, alluded to, come down to value, both in terms of value of the player or value of the individual, but also the cost for acquiring or obtaining the player. And then, um, for my case, we felt like, um, you know, that really matched up. Did you have opportunities to do it earlier? Uh, you know what? So probably the short answer is like, yes, you always have opportunities if you're willing to pay a certain

that's kind of what I'm asking, but you, you, but you just had, you had prices you weren't willing to pay, even though you did like him, obviously enough to take him. But again, it had to get to a certain place. We're like, all right, we're comfortable doing this. And for you guys, that threshold is probably higher than it is for some other teams. Yeah, without knowing what other teams, how other teams value their boards or value certain trade, you know, trade scenarios. Yeah, we do have no different than on the free agent market or general trade market draft day trades. We do a lot of planning and, you know, really a strategy prep throughout the month of April to making sure that we feel pretty good.

about, you know, our walkaways at different points in the draft. So I think on the Johnson chart, it was almost even. I don't know what you guys use. But who runs those numbers for you and how robust are those numbers? Like what is the process of figuring out exactly at which points and exactly at which picks you guys have the formula? What goes, what is the input into that formula? So we have a, you know, a very strong research and strategy group that we really use throughout all of football operations. No different than probably any business.

We value data and we value quality data with our decision making. The draft's no different in that regard. So we do have our own internal valuations when it comes to draft weekend that we lean on heavily, while also being very aware of historical market pricing within each segment of the draft. And essentially, like, how we determine that, Robert, I mentioned a little bit earlier, throughout the month of April, all the evaluation work is really, we're really done by that, by that point. And so we really spend, you know, much of that month doing scenario planning at all different, you know, areas of the draft, walking through as many scenarios as possible.

So that when we get to draft weekend, it really is all about execution. So, you know, if we make- How real is that? And, like, do you guys do mocks? Is it in real time? Like, what is the actual process of practicing that? Maybe the best way to think about it is, if you take a typical game planning week for any NFL coaching staff across the league, and throughout that week, you'll practice base downs. You'll practice third and short, third and me, and third and long. You'll practice red zone. You'll practice two minute.

You'll practice four minute. You'll practice all these different situations. I don't know that it should be that different from our perspective. Just so you're not thinking in the moment. So that's something that you've gotten used to and it doesn't feel like you're getting jumped on by certain scenarios. So you come from, obviously you've, your. comfortable with and willing to embrace a lot of the forward-thinking analytical side of this. But you come from a pretty traditional place on the scouting side of it.

With the pre-draft process, I know you guys have a pretty deep value in the GPS data and a lot of the stuff that's now available. What is the thing that has been computed or you can do with numbers that you never could have imagined when you first started as a scout that they could actually put a value on? Can't answer that question. All right. Okay. All right. That's fine. So I guess, so how much would you say, if you're looking at the pie of the inputs, how much of that stuff, how much of it of the pie does it take up compared to what it would have been 10 years ago?

So the general answer is certainly more without, you know, not, I'm not trying to be cute. I'm doing everything I can't hear. You can, I completely understand where you're coming from. But, but I guess I think probably the, I get that a similar question a lot. And I think That makes it feel like a bad question. No, no, no. I think oftentimes when people think about using data

or let's say completely objective data, the thought process is like, all right, if I'm going to make a decision, you know, data should be X percent, subjective valuation should be Y percent, you know, whatever else you're taking consideration should be, you know, Z percent. I actually think that that's the wrong mentality

to think about it. Because largely the weightings of those inputs depend on really a couple different things. Number one, the question you're asking or the problem that you're trying to solve. And then two, really the quality of the data, quality and like predictive power of the data within that context.

So I don't think there's necessarily a hard and fast percentage for every decision that you're going to make. So like maybe the example I'll give is, I heard this on a podcast, you know, long ago that if you're taking off and flying, you know, in a normal flight, you know, maybe that's like 90, 90% instruments, 10% like manual, proper field. Now, if let's say you're an extreme bout of turbulence or there's a, you know, emergency situation, that way changes because the environment changes, right, when it makes sense to have a, you know,

a 90-10 split. I don't think it's too similar with, like, a lot of decisions we made before. Like, right, you picked out a shirt this morning. What are some of the things that you took into consideration when you picked that very nice shirt that our audience can't quite see? Comfort mostly and the fact that I was on the road and didn't have to dry it. Okay. That was a big part of it. Comfort, not having dry it?

What about fashion? Did that play? Yeah, it's neutral enough, but also I'm put together. Weather? Wood weather? That was a bad choice because like 90 degrees on. I'm wearing a sweater, but yeah, it was part of the equation, yes. Current cleanliness?

Did that, maybe that? Yes. It was clean. I feel great. Now, let's take that same decision. Like, let's take those five factors, that same decision. How would the waiting change if you were on a Saturday morning just lounging it home? And how would that ultimately drive your decision for what you're able? It wouldn't have to be clean.

It wouldn't have to be, at least a nice looking. Yeah, there's a lot of different things. So I think it's no different than when we're making decisions on the roster on the field. So you in when you're talking about Jeremiah, not only talking about the fever dream, but what he does for you guys. And how unpredictable he can make you in the layers of complexity with sort of, certain personnel packages and everything else. And I think that that applies to a lot of your defense in the way that you've built it.

I was fascinated by kind of the blank slate you walked into this offseason. Because outside of maybe Miles and Denzel and a couple other younger pillar players, you guys had a lot of flexibility and kind of a blank slate to work with. So when you're thinking about stacking priorities and how you want to build a defense, what does that hierarchy look like as you start the process this off season? Yeah. So I think, so I think, one, It's something that's not just done in a vacuum.

Like, you have to do that hand in hand with, like, your coaches and your scouts, right? A big influence is ultimately how Kevin and Joe Woods, they want, how they want to play on that side of the ball. You know, our defensive system has a lot of flexibility that's built into it, but it also does have some, call it, you know, pillar principles. And I think the second piece becomes like, okay, here are the skill sets by position that we value or that we think. think will make the biggest impact. What also is available to you in the player pool? You know, because, you know, the reality of it is every team only has so many, what I would call Superman positions where you have that unicorn who can kind of do

everything. They're only a handful of those players that exist. So with the rest of the player population, like what skills are available and can you actually find and then be in position to acquire and how can all that come together to to marry with your offensive war defensive system to ultimately produce wins. So it really starts with a discussion with your coaching staff. And that's something that we did really, I guess, what, 18 months ago. And then it really transitions to your personnel group with what's available.

And it really is, I guess, maybe constant dialogue back and forth because there does have to be give and take really on both sides of it, both what we're aiming for and then realistically do those aiming points need to change based on what's available. So I'm curious, when you're thinking about like the secondary, for example, are there specific roles that you're trying to fill or are you thinking about depth as a more less concrete idea where it's like we need more talent in this position group or are you thinking this player fills X spot and now we can do we have this flexibility with all five of these guys in the field at the same time? How much specificity is there as you build the position groups individually?

It's a combination of both. Like you probably start with both, hey, here's the baseline level of talent that we need. And here's how we would like that talent to produce because this is the style of defense that we want to play. The reality is you're never, in all spots, you're never going to get both. So at that point, then maybe it changes like, okay, really how important is how important is just overall talent at this position versus how important is the role to make the rest of the system work. Totally. And then because it seems like every single guy that you guys took, whether it's Troy Hill now, having a fourth corner allows you to play more four corners at the same time. Having another lineback or what JOK is, you can do certain things in different packages. So it allows you kind of, there's flexibility there. You can push further in multiple directions. Do you feel like that sort of depth and versatility on the back end is more of a priority now in team building than it's probably ever been? football really is a war of attrition and you do need it's both a war of attrition and the fact that you can only dress now 48 but it used to be 46 men up on game day like you really do need people who can do multiple things in case you get into a get into a tough spot not to mention to your point that you were I think you were kind of leading to earlier is it is a matchup league right and you know how you may you know match up against baltimore versus pittsburgh versus Cincinnati you know maybe be a lot different week to week to week to week. And you hopefully have the personnel to be able to

stay within the pillar principles of your system, but be flexible enough to accommodate the strengths of weeks. That's what's interesting is that there's depth obviously stacked up. It's like you have more corners. You have more safeties. But you can also just go horizontally, you can go more different places with just the personnel packages you can use now, which I think is one of the coolest parts about watching you build this unit individually. So you guys obviously, a lot of second. players, John Johnson, Troy Hill, Greg Newsom, in a vacuum. But you gave Miles that extension last year. In a vacuum right now in 2021, would you say it's better to be stronger up front or on the

back end? I don't think it's an either-or proposition. I think you see a lot of, I think you see quite honestly a lot of top units that can do either way. Actually, probably maybe the two best examples might be, you know, in the AFC North. Like I think Pittsburgh has the best front in all football. they gave the whole league fits last year with their ability to really control the line of scrimmage. I think you look at Baltimore, they had one of the best secondaries in football last year. And that's not taking anything away from their front,

but the fact that they were really able to smother, you know, perimeter players week in, week out, made them effective. Yeah, and I think that that's, obviously the two sides work together. Baltimore, it seems like they're on one side of the extreme that they've always been, because they play a lot more man coverage. I think that also plays into it, right? It depends on stylistically what you want to be on defense, and that probably is going to inform how you want to build, obviously.

So when you got here, though, you guys poured a lot of money into the offense and resources, period. Directing G. Dr. Jedric and the contract, Austin Hooper. And I believe looking at the numbers today, you have about 65.6% of your 2021 cap devoted to offense, which is the highest mark in the league. And even after some of the spending you've done, your 30th in defensive spending. Would you say it's fair in a vacuum to say that you want to be a team that is up there in offensive spending and builds offense first and is an offense-centric team? I think it's fair to say that we've always said that we believe quarterback is the most important position in football, and we want to make sure that we have an environment that's conducive for that player, that position group producing at a high level because that's how we believe you have sustained success in the NFL. I think in terms of maybe drilling down another level in terms of spending on side the ball,

I think at times sometimes those analysis are a little, they're not really capturing the whole picture because so many people use, let's say, cash spending or cap dollars as like a measure of importance, which obviously it does, right, it does have, but it ignores the fact that, like, you only have so many premium resources in an offseason. And some of that, some of those premium resources are quite honestly like high draft picks. But because those players are on rookie deals, their waiting probably isn't as appropriately captured if you look at it from a pure cash or cap perspective.

Can we go the other way though and say because Baker's currently on his rookie deal, the fact that you've spent so much on offenses an indication the other way, that your quarterback is still relatively cheap and you're still leading the league in offensive spending? I mean, you can draw whatever conclusions you like to, Robert, But I would tell you, I don't think that that quite tells the whole story. But certainly we want to support the quarterback and certainly we want to have, you know,

strong offensive play. So you guys finished, I think, eighth and weighted offensive DVOA last season. The performances in the second half of the season are very good. And I probably have as much faith as anyone in Kevin and those guys to get the most out of that group moving forward. But I think you probably know very well that improvement and linear improvement, especially on that side of the ball, is not a given. It never is. Regression is real, especially for.

teams that make a huge jump from one year to the next like you guys did. Is there a little bit of anxiety on your part going into this off season with relatively the same group of players on that side of the ball after all the additions you made last year? I'm always anxious about our team. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the off season is. Look, I've said this before.

Like, no team that you design does everything always go 100%? according to plan. And at this point, I feel like I've been in the NFL long enough where you realize just how, one, how hard it is to win games on a weekly and certainly a yearly basis. And it's a very, very humbling profession. So we certainly have, you know, a lot of optimism and belief with the players that we've brought in and how hard the guys have worked so far on the off season. But our focus is really on controlling what we can control on a daily basis. You know, once we do get to the end of the season, we'll be where we want to be in all three phases. Do you feel like looking at not only the improvement you would hope for in year two of the system with Baker,

but just bringing O'Dell back, adding Anthony Schwartz, it's almost like these little tiny tweaks that make it feel like a different offense. Is that kind of how what you were thinking about it, where even if the majority of the players are the same and the DNA is the same, we feel like we've diversified the skills enough where we can be hopeful about some growth in the second year. Yeah, I think it's fair to say. We always want to evolve and, you know, improve in areas where we can from, from year to year. I don't think that that's a, I don't think that that statement is out of bounds. But I don't know that that feeling this year is different than any other year. Andrew Barry, thank you very, very much. It was a great

conversation. Really enjoyed it. Appreciate the time. We'll catch up down the road. No, appreciate you, Robert. Awesome. Thanks. All right, guys. all we got. Thank you so much to Match Diamond for his time. Thank you very much to Andrew Barry for his. Really enjoyed that. We will be back next week. It's going to be me and Nate and a

special guest. You're going to be chatting all things NFL defense, some stuff we learned from last year, some stuff to look forward to in 2021. Until then, enjoy your weekend. Have a nice time. It's summer. I hope you guys get out and do something fun. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic.com

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Until then, enjoy the weekend. Talk to you guys later. This was the Athletic Football Show.