The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Offseason Interview Series: Lions GM Brad Holmes

Episode Date: May 21, 2021

On the first edition of The Athletic Football Show Offseason Interview Series, Robert Mays sits down with new Lions GM Brad Holmes. They discuss Holmes’ acclimation to the role and the state of Detroit’s roster before diving into the Matthew Stafford trade. Holmes also breaks down the decision to draft Penei Sewell, how the league has changed since he first became a scout and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Really exciting show for you guys today. Today we're kicking off what we're calling our off-season interview series. Over the next couple months, we're going to have on NFL general managers, head coaches, some really big-name players, just for some in-depth football conversations that sort of chats we often have on this show

just with some of the most important people in the NFL. And we are kicking that off with Lions general manager Brad Holmes. Obviously, Brad's in his first year as the Lions GM. First year GMs fascinate me. That job and what it includes, I always pay attention to it because this is a situation where a guy is walking into completely unknown circumstances, circumstances and people that he didn't choose. And now they have to reshape it, him, Dan Campbell, and that staff,

into a winning team. That's what they're tasked with. and the early days of that journey, I could not find more interesting. So I'm really excited to dig into that with Brad. Let's get to it. I am very excited now to welcome for the first edition of the Athletic Football Show interview series this offseason.

Detroit Lions GM, Brad Holmes. Brad, how you doing? Doing great. How are you doing, Robert? Thanks for having. Thank you for doing this. I could not be more excited to chat with you. You guys are at kind of a fascinating point.

Obviously, you're taking over this year. the draft not very far in the rear view of mirror so we'll get into that a little bit but first things first i wanted to go back to when you took the job because i'm always fascinated by what it's like to be a GM a head coach just a new regime walking into a new situation it's almost like you bought a house where you know you have to do a ton of renovations on it and but you also have to keep some of it it's just such a strange middle ground so when you're taking this job and when you first step into the role. How do you go about judging the health of the roster?

What does that process look like? Yeah, that's a good question because it goes back to the preparation for the interview. And so you really do everything you can to evaluate that roster for the team. You know, just in the other interview, you research the company, you know, for any interview, for any job. So you do a lot of work on the roster. And as you're, you know, evaluating the roster, you start seeing, okay, this guy is an upcoming UFA, you know, this guy's an RFA, you know, we need to upgrade here.

This guy has a lot of promise. So you have a good idea going into it and then you discuss those things, you know, during that interview process. But after, I will say after you get the job and then now it's like, okay, now it's up to, And how it's up to you and coach actually fix it and upgrade it and actually take action, you know, that's when it kind of hits you a little bit differently where it's like, okay, I was prepared as possible, but then it's like, all right, didn't really know that, you know, third week on the job that would be making this trade,

you know, for franchise quarterback and all, you know what I mean? So those are the things that you just really are not prepared for. but from a roster standpoint, you have a good idea. It's just how can you do everything you want to do with the resources that you have available? I would ask you about the Matthew part of this, but I think that from your background, being on the college side of it, do you have to solicit different opinions about certain pro players? What kind of institutional knowledge do you have of different teams, rosters and where certain position groups are at based on where you spent most of your time over the last few years?

Yeah, and, you know, credit to less and, you know, less need and, you know, how he had everything organized from an operational standpoint. Because coming from a college background, initially it was just, you know, focusing on just the college draft. But, you know, less allowed me to participate a lot more on the pro side of things in like my last few years. So you were more like preseason scouting, free agency meetings, weekly advanced meetings during the season. And so to be able to sit into that, that kind of gave me that knowledge to stay current with the league and what's playing in the league. And it helps you out from a draft standpoint as well. But that was a huge help to turn that institutional knowledge, as you said. So when you're looking at certain aspects of the roster, were there priorities, just position group-wise, offense, defense?

How did you kind of stack up the hierarchy of your to-do list when you took over? Yeah, well, let's just be honest. we had a lot of areas of work we had to do. I've been hearing a lot of work we had to do. I've been hearing a lot of like the draft and everybody was saying, were you meaning to go all defensive linemen? And it was like, no, we could have went all skill and. Yeah. You know, but I will say Dan and I sat down and we identified what the strengths were on the

roster and what the depth was and what, you know, who had upside and where we need to upgrade. And so it was a good starting point that we did think that like, let's say the offensive line was more of a strength on the roster. So then it's like, okay, well, how do we add the depth behind the offensive line? And, you know, what is it like to, you know, upgrade at this spot? And but now you look at the other side of the ball and the defensive line and says, okay, how do we upgrade here where we have these guys leaving and this guy leaving? So how do we get better?

And so those are the things that Dan and I, it just kind of sat there. identified and, you know, we've been in lockstep, you know, in unison with having the same vision of what we want this football team to look like. And we feel like we've done everything that we set out to do so far, but we still got a lot of work that we got to do. Outside of the offensive line, would you say pretty much every other position group was almost a blank slate? Because that really does seem like the only spot where, all right, these are mostly, obviously with the Ragnow extension and then Taylor is there. You guys are excited about there. Everything else.

it almost feels like we might have to start over. Is that how you guys kind of felt? Yeah, there were some places. Like there was, let's say this, there was a lot of unknowns on the roster. So, you know, you could say that there was a little bit of a blank slate. Dan and I took that approach saying that, hey, look, even with these unknowns, like whoever we add via trade or free agency,

and we were up front with all the players that we acquired that, you know, it is open competition. And we're not coming in here anchor to say, okay, well, this guy made this much money and he's on this kind of contract. So, you know, he's going to be the starter. Like, you know, look, if we acquire a free agency, if we draft a guy, you know, if we trade for a guy, then we're up front. You know, it's open competition because it is a brand new regime. But we did, we did identify, you know, where there was depth that, where you saw upside at for backups. But it's a whole different scheme.

It's a whole different routine. And those guys that you just hadn't seen on film that much, you know, out of it we had to do. When you're looking at some of those guys, I'm sure you lean on your pre-draft scouting just takeaways from some of these people. Are there disconnects at times with the ways that that staff might have deployed someone and what you thought about that guy

in the scouting process? How do you reconcile that? Yeah, that's what I thought was a benefit and that was an advantage of what the knowledge I had on, from the draft class and the college scouting process in terms of what because you know in college scouting you have to you're tasked with predicting the end of the movie you know it's all about forecasting and predicting and that's all we always become kind of a nerd about predictive science because that's what that's what we have to do versus you know pro scouting and free to see things

are a little bit more defined and developed but that was a very much of an advantage that I thought coming in to kind of those unknowns, those question marks that I was alluding to like in terms of like knowing where it was at. And even I take a step further, you know, him having to have added weights, you know, last year and said, well, you know what? He added weight his last year. I know the game. But when he was at this weight the previous year, then he was this much more effective.

So having that insight, you know, was a huge help and definitely. And that's so interesting because, They probably added weight because that's what they wanted to do in their scheme. And the rest of that you took over, that regime spent a lot of money over the last couple of years to create their vision of that roster. They went out to get specific types of players, especially on defense, to fill those roles. So when you're walking into that and you're financially tied to some of those pieces you didn't pick, do you have a timeline in mind of when you and Dan and the staff can say, all right, we've put our imprint on this. this is now when a majority of our DNA is in the roster. Is there any sort of time frame that you put on that initially?

Yeah, we try not to anchor ourselves in that regard or put that kind of timeline. We just kind of just do the work that we can to improve the roster as much as we can. But those guys that, you know, had a lot of money spent at a position here or there, you know. And I'll say this, you know, Mike Dizner, that does a lot of our salary cap, solutions. He actually, he's brilliant in terms of like being creative and being very strategic in dealing with that, which I hadn't had a lot of, let's just be right, I hadn't had a whole lot of salary cap expertise coming into it. So, sure. Visner was a huge help with that and kind of giving us a blueprint and helping out Dan

and myself in terms of, okay, well, he's making this much money now, but, you know, that's how the cash and the cap will be structured going forward. So us having that knowledge and him being able to forecast from a cash budget standpoint helped us shape a lot of the decisions that we made. You got to worry about a few more things in that chair than the one that you used to sit in. It's a little bit different with all that stuff and all the moving pieces there. So I want to talk about Matthew because you mentioned you come on the job and this is a huge decision that you have to make almost immediately.

What was the dialogue with him like? How did you initially establish it? What did you guys talk about early on? How did you get to the place that you eventually reached? Yeah, he was very professional, very mature. He handled everything. You know, as far as in the interview process and evaluating the roster like I was talking about, you know, obviously, you know, you're evaluating Stafford,

and he's a very talented quarterback. And so you're just like, wow, like you're a big fan. And I've always been a big fan. I remember, you know, just got in the southeast. University of Georgia when he came out, like he knew all the skill set and ability he had. But, you know, the way that he handled things, the way that he communicated everything, you even became a bigger fan of him in those regards. And he was very clear and upfront professional.

And it was very, I say it was a very mutual, very, very amical conversations that we had about it. And so there was never any time where it was kind of like an awkward or uncomfortable. Bull and we both knew what we were trying to accomplish. And I believe we did end up making that happen. If he didn't want to have a fresh start, if he was open to staying, would you have wanted him to be part of what you guys were building? Because like you said, when you're watching a guy that's that talented, I'm sure your football brain goes to, oh, we can win with this guy.

So we can quickly get where we want to go if this guy is our quarterback. So if he had wanted to stick around, how would you have balanced trying to be good in the short term with maybe needing more resources for the long term. Yeah, you know, that's a great question because, you know, when you're preparing for the interview process, like I was saying about evaluating the roster, yeah, you're preparing that he is the quarterback. And so, and that was one of the things that, you know, looking at him with the caliber of talent he does have. It's like, yeah, no, you're excited about working with Stafford. And I'm sure like, you know, the previous regime more, you know, about being excited about working with the guy with his caliber of talent.

But, you know, and it's the same thing with when the trade actually was executed, is that, you know, you don't, I didn't know that, you know, that we would land Jared golf, you know, within that. And I didn't know. So you just never know how all those days are going to work. But we're very happy about it. I think it was a win-win at the end of the day. But we were prepared to go to do this with Matthew, you know.

start now for sure with Jared i'm so interested in how you think he fits what you're trying to do because from an outsider's perspective my thought would be all right it's tear down time like we need to start over here let's slow play this let's take the long view on it and a 30 million dollar quarterback i know over it's 10 i think this year and then his cap it i think is 30 next year that's an expensive quarterback that's a real real financial resources you'd be devoting to that guy so why did you want to do that? Why did you want to commit to a quarterback even on a two-year basis rather than saying, we're going to trade Matthew somewhere and just get picks and try to stopgap that position until we find our guy of the future? Yeah, well, that was the intriguing part of the trade is that, yeah,

obviously the draft capital is great, but, you know, had to be able to also get Jared and actually the record that he's done, I think his resume speaks for itself in terms of, the amount of wins that he's had, you know, in the past four, four years is, is among the top in terms of all the league. But so that's what you got to be excited about. And you hear a lot of the outside noise, which you try to just kind of have to just block out. But, you know, when I think about Jeff said, well, the last time I saw him was, you know, he was starting a divisional playoff game, you know, on the road and completing over 70% of his passes

and doing that with a broken hand. And so then you find that. And, you know, with the one thing that I have always known about, Jared, is his toughness, you know, and his physical and mental toughness. And that's all it stood out to me ever since he was a rookie when he got thrown in. And, you know, with the Rams, it wasn't great situation from an offensive line standpoint. And, you know, he took a beating. But he kept getting up, kept getting up.

So I knew that Dan's vision of having a team that has. grit and toughness. You know, I knew Jared would fit that, but I thought it was a win-win. It made a lot of sense for both sides and to acquire him in terms of also on top of the draft capital we felt good about it. I remember talking to him in the tunnel after the Super Bowl, and he was just beat to hell. I mean, it just scrapes all over his arms. And he was clearly just, he had a rough night, obviously.

And that always stuck with me, just seeing how physically beat up he had been that night. and the fact that he kept taking those hits and stood in. There were a couple of throws in that second half that were just really impressive plays after what he had been through the rest of that game. So I totally understand that. And when you're trying to balance being reliable at certain positions while rebuilding the roster, how do you try to find that balance? How do you try to say, all right, we need stability here and here?

I'm thinking about Michael Brockers, too, where you're going out and getting a stabilizing veteran presence. How do you try to thread that needle between we don't want to commit ourselves to a certain version of the roster, but we also need stabilizing veteran presences on both sides of the ball? Because that's a delicate balance, it seems like. Yeah, and I think that's the uniqueness. It actually made the job a little bit more fun from a roster building standpoint because you did have to balance that. But that was the uniqueness, I say specifically this year, you know, this past, this offseason and especially the heat of free agency with, you know, so many one-year deals signed.

So I thought that was pretty kind of unique in terms of so many one-year deals. And then on top of being a brand-new regime that we're signing these players that we're really, really excited about. And that's the one thing, Dan and I said, I do, it says, look, we're not going to just, like what's often said, just bridge guys so we can have just a body there just to kind of hold down the fort as we build. And I was like, we signed all guys that we were excited about and guys that we like. So when we, even with the trade with Stafford to have Jared Gough and then to the trade that involved Brockers to have.

And we were excited about that. You know, we were excited to add a Jamal Williams, a Tyro Williams of Rashop. I mean, those guys are Quentin Dunbar. We were excited to add those players. And even if they were shorter deals, I think it's a perfect. kind of, let's just call it a marriage, a perfect marriage, because we all have something to prove. And Dan has mentioned it over and over again. I mean, it's his first year as, you know, head coaching this franchise.

My first year is GM. And a lot of those guys have something to prove. And so I think it's going to just work out that way where hopefully we can prove people right. It's interesting with Michael, because with Brockers, because you have knowledge of him. You'd bring around him and you know what he is in the presence he is in the locker. I'm sure Aubrey Pleasant had some input on that as well. but Dan probably doesn't. So when you're thinking about that guy being kind of a culture builder for you,

how do you initiate that conversation with Dan and let him know, all right, this is a guy you're going to warn around as you build the foundation of this thing. Yeah, and that was one that Dan often would pace around my office back and forth and just saying how much we got to get this guy because Dan had knowledge about, you know, previous matchups with the Saints and the Rams. And I remember it wasn't really a lot of. of selling that I had to do towards Dan because when Dan and I first spoke about, you know, the matchups that, you know, that the Rams and Saints had, immediately I'm thinking him being

an offensive coach, he's immediately going to talk about Aaron Donald. And so, and obviously, yes, obviously he's like Aaron Donald's Aaron Donald. I mean, he's unstoppable. But he kept talking about Brockers. And he kept talking about how much of an issue it was how would Brockers, Hose offensively were certain things that they couldn't do here and there because of rockers. And so then when I talked to Dan about just how much of a leader and culture center he is, that just kind of even heightened the excitement about acquiring him. So it kind of just not a whole lot of selling that had to be done,

but it was good that he was already a big fan. And then, you know, him being a total culture fit made a ton of sense. And you alluded to this, but a lot of the guys you sign run short-term deals, wide receivers, you know, the Brockers thing, we'll see how long that lasts. The one, and then you let Kanye Gallaudet go, the one exception now is Romeo O'Quara.

So when you're trying to figure out, if this is the type of guy we want as a long-term building block and you're committing resources to him at this stage of your trajectory, what does that process like? How do you decide on that guy in how he fits what we want to be three years from now? Because I'm sure that sort of long view is difficult when you're admired in the initial stages of the process. Yeah, it wasn't difficult to actually make the decision that we wanted to resign.

Romeo, it was just about how we're going to make it work because obviously he's a pre, he plays a premium position, you know, pass rush is always premium. And at what his age was, the productive year that he was coming off of, you know, his sizes when he all, he had all the makings of like, yes, that doesn't. doesn't come cheap. And then, you know, you always talk about the intangibles on film. And he plays hard. He plays the game the right way. He's tough and smart. All of that. And so he added that up. And then when Aaron Glenn talks about, you know, what the scheme that he's running in that, you know, we always have a collaborative approach on everything. So when personnel and coaching staff

with collaborate and he always kind of rose to the top in terms of a a premium priority. And so, you know, and you have to make some difficult decisions by financial issues that, you know, well, you know, can you afford to franchise, you know, a Gallaudet and re-sign over? You know what I mean? Like those are the decisions. Sure. Unfortunately, you just have to make. But, you know, we're extremely excited and happy that, you know, Romeo was able to

get resigned and come back. And we got big plans from going forward. And it's just one of those things. I'm sure that there's a balance of, all right, can we compete next year? Can we compete in two years? If we can't, why are we signing a premium price pass rusher if he's not going to fit into our timeline of when we can compete? I'm sure those are just considerations you always have to take into account. And again, striking that balance just seems like it's difficult.

When you talk about the collaborative process with the coaching staff, did you guys have initial meetings? Was there like a seminar? I remember talking to Dan Quinn and Thomas Dimitrov about this years ago when Dan took that job and they kind of sat in the draft room and there were presentations. This is what we want. How did you guys handle that? How did you try to get on the same page initially? Yeah. And you know, the collaborative approach, it comes from, it came from the very, very top with, you know, Sheila Fordham and the four family in terms of she immediately identified, you know, that, you know, that was something that was very, very important. And, you know, So that was very natural for Dan and myself to be collaborative with everything that we do.

And so, yes, we did have, you know, meetings with, you know, both personnel and coaching just, you know, just on the roster, you know, right out the, you know, I would say maybe the second week when we're on the job is just like, let's all meet together and just go over the current roster. And then we did the same thing once, you know, the scheme was in place. and Dan, you know, the phenomenal coaching staff that he was able to bring along once that defensive scheme and offensive scheme was established. And let's have another meeting about that. And then, you know, free agency and draft and, you know, keeps on on. So the collaborative approach has been something that's worked very, very well. And it creates buying across the board.

It's funny because your guys' coaching staff is almost full of all of the coaches that people who pay attention to the league would get excited about. Like the guys like Aubrey Pleasant, guys like Aaron Glenn, I mean, those are types of guys where it's like, oh, he probably deserves a look at a bigger role. And it seems like you collected like seven of them to build this coaching staff, which it has to be exciting. That's, I mean, hats off to Dan. I will say part of, you know, you know, Dan and I did not know each other very. Yeah. We knew of each other and we had, you know, familiar associates in the business.

But, you know, part of the process. of kind of reaching out to coaches that, you know, Dan has worked with and coached with in the past that I had good relationships with. That's one of the things that they brought up is that when, you know, when the point was raised about staff, you know, he would say, like, trust me, that would not be an issue. Like, they will, there's playing a coach around the league that would love to coach with Dan. And I will say, now, Dan did not write down all those names and say,

hey Brad, this is the coaching staff that I'm going to have. If he did, I probably wouldn't have believed it. I was happening. But it was all true because all those coaches that were having a ton of respect for him, just love working with him. It's been true and just credit to him that it's just a phenomenal coaching staff. And not just coaches, but just good human beings to have around the building.

Again, fits into the culture of just being collaborative and not having any ego. but then you add on just everything that they've accomplished, a lot of them former players. So it's really just a win-win all the way around. All right, let's talk about Penn, are you ready? So I'm curious, how much knowledge of him did you have before this offseason? Because in L.A., you guys haven't had a first round pick in 25 years, so you probably weren't ever going to think that you were going to be in play for him.

So how much did you know about him? How much did you know about him? How much did you kind of learn initially when you started this offseason looking at players? Yeah, I first heard about Kenei back during the 2019 season. And, you know, everybody was talking because Oregon had, you know, other offensive linemen that had came out in that draft. And he wasn't eligible yet. And so everyone was like, the left tackle, the left tackle. Yeah. You kind of peaked and you're just like, oh, wow, he looks in.

And then the opt out happened. So then during the opt out and credit, you know, the West Coast Area Scout, you know, with the Rams, Vito Ginella. But, you know, when I was in the college director role, Vito would just rave about this guy. He was like, Brad, I'm telling you, like, this guy. So then when you have a scout that's that excited about one of the players in his area, you immediately take notice. And when I first thought, like, wow, I haven't seen, I haven't seen this in a long time.

And so that's kind of when he really kind of was on the radars a little bit in 19, but then last fall really kind of had a good full exposure, even during the out of the film. You talked about his feet a couple different times. And those fold blocks where he'd come back across, it was like a 330-pound ballerina. I mean, it's just absolutely ridiculous. You very rarely see guys that not only have that explosive,

but just that nimble and the balance and everything else. And I understand why you'd get entranced by that. There's a lot to love. I'm curious, what were the question marks? What were the things where you're like, I don't know about that? I mean, there's some length issues compared to other top 10 tackles, not a lot of true pass sets.

So as you're kind of interrogating your evaluation of him, what are the questions that you needed answered? Yeah, that's a great question because every time you see a player that talented, you immediately go to, all right, what am I missing here? Yeah, exactly. You know, and I would say even more, especially when it comes to offensive line, because that, to me, that is such an instinctive position that, you know, you just have to have a sense of awareness and position. and, you know, what let's say often that was great was that had to understand geometry. And so that's the one thing that Penae has physically gifted as he was. And then when you find out he was the youngest guy in the draft coming out,

that's when you got even more intrigued because there are areas of his game that he still needs to work on. But when you find out his intangibles and his character and his desire to be great and him coming from a football family and his dad being a coach and how coachable he is. And then you kind of put all those different attributes to together. It's like, okay, all right, I think we're cooking with gas here because he can get so much better. He's so young. And it's not like he has a ton of things that he needs to work on, but he is young and he's a

working. He hasn't played a ton in college football. So you add all that up and then we felt good about it. upside, which you thought was monstrous. I mean, it really does feel like perennial all-pro type upside when you look at the physical gifts. So you've talked about, you said this earlier, how you really are starting from scratch to a certain extent.

You could go any direction positionally. Was there part of you that looked at the offensive line being a strength and thought, maybe we go a different direction here because we already have building blocks in this area? Yeah. I'll take you back to go back to my time with the Rams. And so, you know, we drafted Chris Long. And then, you know, then we drafted Robert Quinn, you know, in 2011. And then the new regime comes in.

And then we draft Michael Brockers. And then in 2012. And then a few years later, then we draft. And so, like, defensive line. was always a strength. And we just kept adding and adding to make it become just a monster and a beast. And so, you know, when we kind of looked at the offensive line, before we looked at it's like, okay, a lot of people are saying, you know,

there was a need to add more at wide receiver. There was a need to add more at, you know, other positions. But when we got to know more about Penae and said like, hey, look, if we can add this guy to our offensive. of line, you know, how much more of a strength? Does that create a monster? And with that strength or that monster created, then how much does that impact everything else? How much does that help, Jared? How much does that help swift? How much, you know what I mean? So that, this, that impact. So that's kind of when it became a little bit more easier for us to come to a,

I guess an agreement to add a guy like I'm looking at I'm thinking about the depth chart is just like a spot with different holes and when you fill that one just the whole line becomes green like it just it lights up as soon as you fill that fifth spot I'm sure in a way you were thinking about that it's like all right if we get this guy and we think that he's a building block because a ball of all else in your first draft the seventh overall pick you just need to hit

a guy you just need a guy that's going to work for you because that's the most important thing and to have it be just coincidentally, at a spot where you already feel good about everything else, I'm sure there's peace of mind that comes along with the knowledge that we might have just finished off our offensive line for 2021. That has to creep into your mind. I'll tell you a good one. Funny you say that is, so I never, it was probably about a week, a week before the draft,

and we were kind of going through some scenarios and we brought up Penae and our senior personnel executive John Dorsey. with, you know, all the experience that he has had as a gym and putting together successful rosters. He'd be probably, he goes, I said, like, man, Penet would just be awesome to Lane. And, you know, I'd never forget, Dorsey goes, well, it helps you sleep better at night. And when he said it, it just really hit me. I was like, you're right.

It does help you sleep better at it. You know what I mean? Because it says when you add that, it just, like you said, it just affects so many other things. So that was a good point when you brought that up because exactly, I immediately thought of what Dorsey mentioned about. You just kind of just feel better and sleep better and having to have a guy like him on a unit such as we do. So thinking about timeline, thinking about how you want to spend resources and gather resources, what is the dialogue, even in your own head about trading down from that spot? How do you balance the idea of having a guy that makes you sleep easier at night,

but also understanding this is going to be a long-term thing? saying we need as many bites at the apple as possible. How do you weigh those things in your head? Because I know I read that earlier this week, you talked to Albert Breer and he said that you guys had a solid offer on the table for that pick. So how do you go through that? Yeah, you know, we always thought that we had to be in a position that, you know, we need to add the best football players that we possibly can.

And, you know, we thought all the scenarios that we went through. Yes, we did have dialogue with other clubs. you know, on our pick and, you know, throughout the other rounds. And we did come in inclusion that, look, if the right guys there, we're just staying and taking the best player. Now, we didn't roll out moving back depending on who was or not going to be there. But you do have those. And sometimes you've got to think about, you know, well, depending on the strength of that

specific draft, do you, and that's for every draft, depending on the strength of that draft, do you trade back? And so what do you acquire or what can you possibly acquire versus if you stay put? So all those things kind of play into the equation, but we just felt good about when Penae was available. Then that dialogue with those other teams were pretty quick that ever say we're going to go ahead and go ahead and pick. But we thought about even, you know, I'm sure you've heard, you know, with Levo on Luzerique from what. Washington, you know, we thought about trading back up into the first round to possibly land him. And, you know, credit, you know, the staff that, you know, that we have that, you know,

said, you let's just stay patient and see if he can fall to us. And we did. And if we would have made that move, then that would have had a big impact on all the other players that we acquired after that. So, you know, sometimes you got to just kind of see if the draft got smile on you and the players will fall to you. I'm sure your first year in the job, when you know I need to add talent to this roster,

you get a little bit antsy. And I saw the video today where did you call Atlanta and see what it would have taken to get up there because you were a little bit worried about Penny not being there at 7? Was that part of the thought process as well? Well, yeah, we did have dialogue with Atlanta, you know, on that pick. And, you know, I'll just leave it at that. But, yeah, we did have dialogue there.

and they just decided to stay pat, you know. And, you know, they could have had the same train of thought just like we did that, you know, they had their player mind and said, hey, look, he's there. We're just going to go ahead and stay in the face. So I totally understand that. But, you know, you do. You just kind of want to just make sure that you're not anchored and you have all options available. And you've got to just, you know, you just can't be scared, you know, to make those moves if you can make them.

you guys clearly were excited and justifiably so as somebody who loves offensive line play that guy was a blast to wash and study and i can understand why you would be but there is inherent uncertainty with the draft if you look at the hit rate of it everyone's celebrating on draft night and it's a 50-50 proposition for the most part and you come from a place that kind of was driven by that uncertainty to a certain degree because they traded away picks in order to acquire veterans that were sure things. So how do you balance those ideas? Coming from a place that was really understood that and had it shape their process to now where you're maybe willing to trade up for guys that you love. How do you weigh those two things? Yeah, well, you know, Annette, that's often brought up. And, you know, I will say a lot of those moves and trades that were made with the Rams were extremely strategically planned and well-file. of. But the other thing is that, you know, the Rams where they're at from a roster standpoint

and where they're at from an organizational standpoint, you know, let's just say that they're in a window where there's like, you know, we're just this away from actually making this leap where, you know, when Dan and I first took this job, it's like, we're not in that same window, you know, or we're not there from a roster standpoint. So you got to be kind of very strategic and be careful about, you know, the just trade away first round picks to get this player because with the Rams, it's like, yeah, you know, to acquire a Jalen Ramsey, you know, and also knowing what the strength of village draft classes are, you know,

then, you know, felt comfortable doing that. And I was one when I was there, I said, yeah, let's go ahead and do it. But, you know, where we're at, you know, as a franchise now in Detroit, it's just a different circumstance. So you got to just weigh those picks a little bit differently. So let me be Play Devils Advocate then. Because of where you guys are at, wouldn't you say that that would be a strong argument against trading up? Because you want to give yourself as many cost-controlled draft pick resources as possible here as you work on rebuilding the roster? You could say that, but I will take it back to knowing the strength.

of each draft. Sure. Like, because it is, every draft is different. Like the 2011 draft and the 20, let's say, 2014 draft, you know, like what that was at the top, you're like, wow, that's a lot of firepower. But maybe the 2013 draft and the 2019 draft was a little bit, that wasn't as top as heavy as there. So that's the part that you have to weigh.

And that plays a lot into that. So it goes back to, yeah, you could trade back and have more bats at the plate and have more cost and control. But how much impact are you adding versus, you know, being in position or let's say striking distance to trade up and get a player where you're not sure if you're going to be in striking distance again? This is a strange question. But does the mood of the room and the morale of trying to create buy-in, and excitement throughout your entire building and staff play into that thought process at all? Does that excitement and knowing it would be there if you take Penae instead of trading back? Does that influence how you're thinking about it even a little bit?

You know what? I will say the excitement in the mood in the room, it was not, it was Penae, but it was just so much else that went into. It was just, you know, the first pick for this regime. That's kind of what I'm saying, though. Is that part of it? It's wanting to make that pick and have that moment for you guys just getting on the job. Does that play into the process at all?

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, that's part of it. But it's all genuine and all offensive. You know, and so that's what you love about it. But on that same point, if we would have traded back, you know, like we had plans and pools of players in place if we traded back at certain levels that, okay, say that Penaet wasn't it. You know, we had, you know, players in place that we would have picked comfortably and would have still been high-fiving. So, you know, it's all what we love about that whole scene was that everything was just completely genuine and authentic and so much kind of went into it as you alluded to.

So one of the conversations pre-draft that I found fascinating, and it was mostly centered around the Bengals in their thought process, was this idea of position. value between receivers and offensive linemen. And I wanted to ask you this because, like you alluded to, you're in a similar position. You guys needed weapons. You could, obviously you thought you needed a right tackle. So in a vacuum, if you're building a hierarchy from those positions, essentially saying, would I rather be have a great offensive tackle or a great receiver, in a vacuum, how do you stack up those positions in terms of positional value?

Man, that's a great question. I would say that it's a big man's game, and they're a little bit harder to find, those premium guys that have that kind of ability and makeup. They're a little bit where you can say arguably, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I want to say, like, average draft of wide receivers, you know,

is in the high 20s, if not low 30s. So it's a high volume position every single year in the draft at wide receiver where offensive tackle, you know, the number decreases. And especially when you get into those premium guys that have that type of skill set. But that's no knock in terms of when you're looking at elite football players, you know, you're looking at any elite, you know, tackle prospect versus any elite wide receiver prospect. that that's when it makes the argument because an elite prospect is an elite prospect, they're blue chip stocks that are hard to come by.

And like I was saying earlier in the last question, you're often might not be even in striking distance to acquire one. But I would say if I had to answer that, I'd say you probably maybe say that the offensive linemen, you know, when you have a chance to get one of those elite, they're just a little bit harder to find and maybe why you see. that's the preferred answer on this show, so I sincerely appreciate that.

Where would you, talking about those blue chip guys and understanding the tiers of a draft and while you trade down and things like that, I think that's something that the analytically driven among us often forget or don't think about enough. In a given draft, where would you say that cutoff usually exists?

I know each draft is specific, but on average, where would you say that line typically is between where the blue chip guys begin and end? That's a great, question because the reason that's a great question is because it's hard to pinpoint where it ends now you could say there's a safer range of blue chip players elite prospects in each draft where you can say that there is maybe right at a handful you know or you know maybe slightly more but

this draft was seven right hard to say like where that cutoff is because certain players are going to slide for certain reasons. So if you can kind of say, look, we have these players graded as blue chip players. All right, well, we have these five. That doesn't mean that it's one, two, three, four, five. And then if you're picking it at seven or eight, that's going to happen because we've all notice the quarterback value. And if those quarterbacks aren't the blue chip players, those guys can still go one,

two, three, as what just occurred. and then that run might start, four, five, six, you know what I mean? So that's the one thing that's hard to say to pinpoint. And then there's players that have blue chip talent that, you know, have all field issues and have whatever issues that might cause them to slide a little bit. And there's some organizations that might be more lenient than other organizations on those issues where they say, look, we have the locker room. We have the surrounding supporting cast to take a risk and take that player.

So that's why it's a little bit hard to say pinpoint where that cutoff is, but it's easier to say how many blue chip players can you expect. It's a cruel question. I will say, though, you guys were the benefit of those quarterbacks being pushed up this year. Because I'm assuming that if Pente wasn't the best player on your board, he was probably in the top three based on your guys' interest in how you've reacted and everything else. So that's exciting. So I'm curious, I want to ask you.

you've done this for a long time. And I think I'm curious about the scope of your career and what you've learned and how things have changed over the last, let's say, 10 years. You became a National Scout like 2011, right? So it's been about a decade. So that scope of time, I think, is so interesting in terms of how the league has changed. Obviously, I remember reading Jordan Roderick's piece about you guys drafting Jordan Fuller last year and the GPS data and how that played into it. So I'm curious. From the time you took that job in 2011 as a National Scout to write.

now, what would you say the biggest differences in the process of scouting college players? Yeah, I would definitely say the analytics piece of it definitely has changed, has changed things dramatically from a process standpoint. And the way that I've always looked at the analytics is, you know, I think it's a great resource and it's a great quality can control piece. that can hold you accountable in different areas. Now, how much you allow it to make the decision for you is, you know, on an individual basis. But, you know, I always looked at, you know, like a Jordan Fuller, where it's like, you know, hey, look, you know, he did not, he did not run the most desirable 40 time.

But it was the same thing with, let's go back to a Cooper Cup, you know, like Cup didn't run the most desirable 40 time. but he had one of the highest GPS miles per hours at the senior bowl. And then every time you looked at Cooper Cup, you love him playing football. And I even go back to our Jamar Jefferson, who we drafted in the seventh round this year at 257, that, you know, he didn't run the most desirable 40 times he went for a running back, but he was among the tops in terms of play speed, analytic data, you know, among all the running backs that came out. So those are the parts that it's helped. It's definitely been an incredible,

impactful resource, but at the end of the day, it's like not how much data that's available to you, but how you're going to slice up that data and how you're going to utilize it, which is helped out tremendously. As you've dug into the data a little bit more, what would you say is one of the core beliefs you've questioned the most, conventional wisdom that you used to have, that you really had to go back to the drawing board a little bit as the numbers became a bigger part of the process. Yeah, let's say questioning, I question all of it, to be honest with you. But what I'm saying about just the accountability piece of it is that you question it and it should direct you back to the film.

So it's that, you know, when you think a guy's a certain speed from a play speed standpoint and then the 40 time is not saying that. And then it should make you say, all right, well, let me go back to the film and be sure on that. Or maybe even vice versa. So it's a healthy checks and balance that I think helps. So it's not one that weighs more than the other. I just kind of just hold you accountable. And it helps you just kind of just bring a little bit better quality and accountability to a decision-making process. Last one.

what would you say is the biggest difference between Brad Holmes the Scout in 2021 and Brad Holmes the Scout in 2011? Wow, that's a great question. The reason why that's a great question is, you know, there's a combine interview, a video interview that you're able to participate in for aspiring GMs and head coaches. that they put on at the combine every year. And I want to say I did the first one in 20, let's see right after 2012. And it was, I felt like I didn't do very well at it. And ever since then, I always wanted another bat at the plate or crack at it. And I was talking to a couple of mentors that I have in Dick Daniels and Shaq Harris at the combine.

And I said, well, I hope I get another chance to actually do that because, and Shaq Harris just answered for me. He said, you just feel like you're more football mature now. And I said, yeah, you couldn't have said it any better because all the things that I learned, you know, you talk about the analytics and how does that incorporate in roster building and T building and all the trades that I was fortunate it up to be a part of in those big decisions with the Rams. you know, I felt that it helped shape me to, you know, make good decisions in this chair now. So was able to have another bat at the plate. And fortunately enough for me, then Mike Dissner was able to see that video and add me to the list to interview for this job. So it's just a lot of things that's helped me out from a football maturity standpoint that's helped me being this chair at him today. Very fortunate of it.

I said the last one I lied to you. You spent so much time with the Rams and being in one organization, do you feel like you've had to seek out different viewpoints, different methods of doing things from other places in order to kind of diversify your thinking because you've been in one building for so long? You know what? Yes and no.

Because, you know, I think a big part of any job that you take is, you know, you have to constantly evolve everything that you're doing. And I will say that back with the rent and spending so much time there, you know, each regime and especially even the most current regime there with Les and Sean is that there are big components of, you know, evolving processes and, you know, having outside the box and not being outside the box just because you want to be outside the box, but it just made more sense and was more efficient and more impactful.

So they live at one end of the spectrum. that's for sure. Yeah. So that's something that Dan and I, you know, we, we've talked at length about and we're all on the same page about. And, you know, that's what we're all hoping to have carryover. But also, Dan is very much of a very, he's incredibly smart, very strategic thinker, outside the box thinker.

And so we bounce off those ideas. And, you know, we just try to see if we can have our own spin on things. But it's been working well so far. but hopefully we'll bring the results that we desire. Awesome. I sincerely appreciate the time. This is incredibly enjoyable. A lot of great insight.

Again, I'm fascinated by the job you guys have to do there and where you're at in the process. So thanks for giving us shining a little bit of a light on that. I'm sure we'll catch up down the road, but really appreciate the time. Thanks, Robert. Thank you guys for having me. Appreciate it. All right, guys.

That's all we got. Thank you so much to Brad Holmes for stopping by. Really enjoy that conversation. We're going to have another one of these. next week and hopefully every week up through the start of training camp. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform

of choice. I sincerely appreciate that. Also, please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. I think I've got a couple of pieces coming out next week, so be on the lookout for that. I would really appreciate that. We'll be back next week with Lindsay and Nate. Until then, though, thank you for listening.

We'll talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.