The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Our biggest questions heading into training camp

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

If you're listening to this episode the day it comes out, the Lions and Chargers are at training camp. If you're listening to it a few days later, even more teams are at camp. No matter when you're listening to it, training camp is here. And we have questions. Oh boy, do we have questions. Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dave Helman talk through their biggest questions as camp begins on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Hosts: Robert Mays and Derrik KlassenWith: Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Training camp is officially here. Teams are starting practices in a couple days. The lions and the chargers have been rolling for a couple days. We're using this moment, me, Derek Classen, David Hellman, to talk about the biggest questions we have as camp gets going. These are all over the place. Some of these are very specific when it comes to how does a certain quarterback look who's winning a certain quarterback battle.

How is the Cleveland Browns quarterback battle even going to be struck? Some of these are about position groups with some weaknesses. How do they get sorted out? All the offensive line reshuffles that are happening in the league. So we took this a bunch of different directions. But for me, Derek and Dave, these are the 10 biggest questions we have as camps get going. And let me tell you, I am very excited to be back at this point in the calendar. So let's get to this discussion with David and Derek right now.

Well, we officially made it. Training camp is here. Veterans will be reporting, I believe it. for tomorrow for a lot of teams and then practices will be getting started in earnest on Wednesday. But we have reached that point in the calendar and I am very excited to be here before practices really got going in earnest and before we really got into the training camp news cycle. We wanted to address a few questions that we had before we get into the meat of training camp. The biggest burning questions we have as the 2025 season really gets rolling.

I have two guys to help me dig through those questions. First off, it is one of our co-hosts here at the athletic football show. It's Derek Klaas and Derek, how you doing, man? Doing fantastic. It is with each passing show, we really are feeling like we're getting closer and closer into the beats of an actual season, which it feels good. So I'm excited to be here. Also joining us today, our good friend, David Hellman.

Dave, how are you doing, buddy? I'm doing phenomenal. And it's an earlier schedule this year for training me. But I'm thrilled about it. You know, like, I'm ready for the gross overreactions. I'm ready for the highlight videos. We're just twiddling our thumbs anyway. So like why not get this all started a week or so ahead of time?

Yeah, Robert, you're probably more attuned to the timing of training camp more than anyone outside of a team facility in the entire league. So the reason that I know it deeply is my mom's birthday is the last week in July. So it's always, am I going to be home for my mom's birthday? That's how I have to organize this. And July 19th, so when you guys listen to this, I will have already been on the road for a couple days. July 19th is definitely the earliest I have left for my training camp travel since I started doing this. But it's not a complaint. It's one of my favorite times of year.

I absolutely love this stretch. Again, I'll be at 17 practices in 17 days and will be in the thick of it as you guys listen to this. I will be in Detroit flying to Arizona on the Monday when this is released. So very, very excited to get back into it. And two fascinating teams, two teams that we will be hitting in some capacity on this show. So a lot of the questions that we're going to address today are the ones that I'm probably going to be asking people here over the next few weeks. Dave, we're going to let you kick this off, sir. Your number one question that you have as we get going with training camps this week.

I appreciate you letting me take the obvious one because I do think there is one question for me that looms over everything. It's the most interesting man in the NFL, the most interesting team in the NFL heading into August. for me is J.J. McCarthy and the Minnesota Vikings, and I am dying to know how does he look, how, you know, how progressed is he in the recovery from the injury? How ready is he to be the Minnesota Vikings franchise quarterback? Because it is so unusual and so exciting to think that this team was a handful of plays away from being the number one seed in the NFC, it would be. easy to argue that they are a better overall roster than that team, except for a very obvious

change at quarterback. And so, I mean, who has more hopes and dreams riding on him than J.J. McCarthy right now? And he's on top of that, like go back to JJ's draft cycle. He was considered inexperienced and young just as a prospect. And that was before he wound up in this situation where he played two quarters of preseason football last year and we had to shut him down the rest of the way. We've barely seen this guy. And if he's the man, then I'm ready to talk about the Vikings as a Super Bowl contender. And if he's not the man, then that is obviously a very unfortunate can of worms. It's so intriguing.

I'm going to be glued to Vikings practice updates. I'm going to watch every JJ preseason rep. I cannot wait. So a lot of the bigger picture questions I have about the league, certain coordinators and how they'll do what those changes look like. Those to me aren't questions that can be answered during training camp. Those things are mostly going to be as we get into the season. So I have a lot of who's playing with the first team type questions. But the McCarthy one was one of mine because I think you can kind of bridge the gap there. You can get a sense of how he's practicing.

Dave, you're the only one of us that has covered a team day to day during training camp. I just want to know from you when you're trying to get a sense of how the quarterback is performing, what sort of expectations we're supposed to be heaping on to this person. What are you trying to take away from those individual practices as somebody who's watching the beats of it day to day? That's a really good point. And to be honest with you, it's, it is tough to evaluate training camp reps because unless you are, I hesitate to do it. That's kind of why I'm asking you, because I'm only there for a day. So I'm like, I can't get a clear picture in a day. And I've never pretended that I can. Odds are. And if you know the right people,

you can get your hands on practice tape. But odds are you don't have practice tape. You're watching one rep live. And this is the world that we live in. And we were joking about like overreacting to training camp videos. You're watching grainy iPhone videos trying to decide like, oh, did the end kill that play immediately? Like did JJ bail out of the pocket because he had to? How much time did he have?

Or yeah, like half of the great throws we see in training camp, you're just like, well, that's a sack. that play would have never happened in a live setting. It's tricky. But if you're just trying to get a feel for it, it's how comfortable does the quarterback feel? How often is he making plays from within the pocket? It's as simple as how often is he completing balls downfield, not settling for checkdowns?

Is Justin Jefferson having a chance to make plays against the defense? It is tricky to do, but it can be done. And you're so right, Robert. Like a lot of times, obviously training camp reps matter, but you want to give guys grace. You want to give guys a grain of salt and say, hey, this is a highly controlled environment. This is not the same thing that we're going to be seeing on Sundays. But for a guy like J.J. McCarthy, who has played next to no NFL football, every little thing matters. So he is in that rare category of guys where I don't think there's anything too small to glean from him.

Like how is he commanding the huddle? How is he talking to guys? Like are him and Aaron Jones on the right timing with their handoffs? Like it's all, it can be very mundane and we can still glean so much from it. So whereas a lot of guys I would be, I'd be tempted to just overlook things in practice. JJ is he's not in that group. I think everything he does this summer is going to be interesting for one reason or another. The experience aspect of him of it with him, I think is the most fascinating here.

Because like you said, Dave, when they drafted him, they know. knew that he was not going to be a player who was going to be ready made. He was a guy who relatively didn't throw as many, you know, passes as other guys in his class. And then when they drafted him, they signed Sam Darnold. And I think the plan was to let Sam Darnold play as long as possible. And if it was. Yeah. And in the off chance that JJ was incredible by week 10 in practice, sure they play and whatever. Or if the season was going right, whatever, I'm sure that might have happened. But the plan, it seemed from the get go was to start Sam Darnold because they knew J.J. was going to get need a year. But he didn't really get that year.

Like he got training camp. He got like one preseason game. And then other than that, it was a lot of mental reps. And like mental reps are valuable. There's a lot of value in that. And being around the right guys and being around Kevin O'Connell for a year. But there is something different to actually getting a bunch of practice reps and being able to see this stuff live and be able to make those yourself. And the fact that now he's having to kind of have that rookie experience now, but he's jumping into a team that probably expects to be in the NFC championship.

And like he might not actually be afforded some of that grace because of. how good the team is. It's just kind of a fascinating degree of responsibility that has been thrown on to what is effectively a rookie season. We've talked about this for the last two years, Derek. And I'm on the record saying that I would have stayed the course if I was the Vikings when it comes to not paying Sam Darnold. You've built your entire multi-year financial outlook around chasing a rookie quarterback

contract the year that you did it with J.J. McCarthy. And the benefits of being on that is they got to spend this offseason. It's the first time they weren't paying dead money for Kirk Cousins. it's the first time that the books were clean enough where we can get a little bit aggressive in free agency and kind of fill some of those remaining holes that even if the team has been exciting, there have been some personnel concerns. Interior defensive line, interior offensive line. They've done it.

Like you look at the roster and you can kind of quibble with a couple of spots where I wonder if the secondary depth is there. And, you know, do they really need Javon Hargrave or could they have spent on another corner or safety? And, you know, we'll see how the interior offensive line comes together. But this is nitpicky stuff. This is a team that had a top three defense last year. And Derek, when we did NFC supporting casts, we had them at number one in the NFC. So the quarterback is the biggest central question to all of this. And even if I support the plan up to this point where you got to build what you've built

around the quarterback, if he's not good, none of that shit matters. Like, he has to come together for this plan to actually dismount in the way that they want to. And that's why I just think that you can make a really serious argument. this is the most compelling question about the entire NFL throughout all of training camp. And because of the injury, like, the plan isn't the plan anymore. Like when they drafted him, they expected him to be a different player than he was when they drafted him. But he didn't really get the chance to do any of that. And that's why, like, again, it was so complicated about should they keep,

should they find a way to keep Sam Darnold or should they just let it run? And I understand why they just wanted to write it out with J.J. McCarthy, but they are in their quarterback development plan, probably just not as far, along on that road as they would have wanted. The other fun wrinkle here for me is where JJ is from a coaching standpoint. Like obviously the roster's good, but we all think very highly of Kevin O'Connell as a coach and as a developer of quarterback talent. I mean, Kirk played well under him.

Sam Darnold just did what he did. I feel obligated to remind everyone every time possible that he got two really good games out of Josh Dobbs too. Like Kevin O'Connell knows what he's doing. And so this isn't a, this is, this is such an advantageous situation. And obviously we won't really be able to see how Kevin O'Connell makes a difference for J.J. McCarthy during training camp. But we just know in the back of our mind, like if somebody can bring the best out of this guy,

Kevin O'Connell, for me, is on that short list of people. So that makes it even more exciting. And I think it raises the stakes because if he had gone to. a quarterback wasteland franchise. Maybe I would be tempering my expectations, but I've seen Kevin O'Connell do some really cool stuff. So that sort of influences my opinion here. I don't want to say I expect J.J. McCarthy to light the league on fire, but it's all there for him.

Like there aren't a ton of reasons why this guy drafted where he was onto this roster with this coach can't be at least successful, even if he's not, you know, just MVP. P caliber right out of the gate. He should at least be successful. And that's kind of why I was supportive of them just going this route, because your infrastructure has lifted guys consistently. Bet on the infrastructure again. But at a certain point, the quarterback has to lift his end of the bargain here. And that's what we're going to be on the lookout for. Thankfully, if you're a Vikings fan, the Vikings press corps is rabid and crazy enough where you'll be getting your updates here from our guy Alec Lewis, got people like Matthew Collar.

I love going to Vikings camp because that is a small but very mighty group of reporters that covers that team quite thoroughly. So there are going to be no shortage of J.J. McCarthy updates if you are a Vikings fan on the lookout for them. This is amazing. I love the way that we have this set up because Dave went with like the biggest, most obvious question possible that we have to address. And Derek's first one is just like about Rasul Douglas, which I can't even imagine a better collection and a more appropriate one, two, to kick off this show for both of you.

That's very on brand. What is your first question that you have about training camp here, Derek? Yeah, Dave's is incredibly like pointed about maybe the most important quarterback situation in the league. And mine is a little bit more meandering about like, where are the 30 year old corners going to end up? Because we've got there are, there's still a lot of them, right? Like, Rassul Douglas is still out there.

Stefan Gilmore is still out there. Mike Hilton is probably, if you need a slot, he's probably your best option left on the in terms of the free agent guys. Asante Samuel Jr. is still out there. And it's not like there aren't enough homes for these guys, which I think is the most fascinating part of this. Teams like the Chargers could probably use another body at corner.

The Rams could still use a body at corner. The dolphins, Lord knows, they could still use another body at corner. Cowboys, Falcons, like, there's still plenty of homes for these guys. It's just a matter of like who's going to land where. And I'm pretty interested to see how the dominoes fall here. Dave, I think this for me is a, we're going to see what we have for the first couple weeks, we're not in a hurry. If we feel like we need to address this because our in-house options aren't clearing the bar,

that's when we could potentially make a call for somebody like Rasul Douglas. Because I've always looked at situations like this and thought the downside to having a stopgap veteran is that you are cutting off potential opportunities for reps and playing time for younger players. And so if you can try to have your cake and eat it too there where you're getting some looks at guys early in camp and then you get to a point by August 1st and you say, you know what, we probably need one more. We probably need some sort of stopgap backstop here to make sure that we can stem the bleeding if we need to. You think we need one more? We need one more.

No, there's a very fun rhythm to training camp if you know what to look for. And I covered the Cowboys for a long time and it was really easy to notice because the Cowboys are one of those teams that goes away for camp, right? they go out to California to get away from the heat, all that good stuff. But every team does it, no matter where they practice. And that's, you shift about, I would say, three weeks into training camp, you shift into more of the mode of like, let's get ready for week one. Like the first few weeks we're out here. We're building camaraderie. We're going through the playbook.

We're just learning what we have and what we do. And you're exactly right. Like, we're going to give our draft picks and our undrafted rookies every opportunity to impress. us. And every single year, again, Cowboys specific, like when they would get on the plane to go back to Texas, that's when it flipped. That's when you're, now we're game planning for Philly. We don't care about install. We are game planning for the first thing we're going to do this season. And we're going to start calling about what we need. You know, if we need a guard or if we need an extra cornerback, we're going to start calling around. There's always a predictable rhythm that

when teams make that switch, that's when they start calling guys. Or if they have, you know, unfortunately, a catastrophic injury also something to consider. So that's what I would be on the lookout for is who had a bad injury? That's when veterans are going to get phone calls. And when teams sort of flip their script and start prepping for week one, that's when I think you'll see whether it's a cornerback, whether there's an offensive tackle that's still hanging around. that's when those phone calls start getting made. And it's fun to see when teams kind of shift their focus away from like, all right,

we've given the rookies every opportunity and we don't feel good about it. So let's call Rasul Douglas. I was just looking it up right now. The Cowboys Break Camp in Oxnard on August 14th this year. That's when they will be heading back to Dallas. We just said the training camp is starting a few days earlier this year. The bookend I was trying to find to go along with that is when did you Devi and Clowney last sign with a team?

like what was the date. August 18th, 2023 is when Debbie and Clowny signed with the Ravens. So you can kind of set your watch to it. Yes. Those are the types of things that we're on the lookout for here. Sometimes you can get a little bit ahead of it, right? Like Washington knew they needed another pass rush or no matter what. And that's why Vaughn Miller gets signed on July 15th.

Yeah, exactly. That's a great point. There's like two windows, like right before camp, if there's something you want to do. And then, yeah, two, three weeks into camp, you know, everybody loves their, fifth round pick on July 18th. Everybody's like, well, keep an eye on this guy. And then on August 12th, they're like, maybe we should call around and see who's available. I'm going to go back to the red meat mainstream well here with my first one. What the hell does the cult quarterback situation look like? Because I don't know what the plan is. That's probably my biggest question as it relates

to this. Is this a scenario where they're going to give Anthony Richardson every chance to win this job, where unless he falls on his face during training camp, and he's supposedly healthy and should be ready to go, which is huge news considering he missed most of another offseason with that shoulder. Is this going to be a situation where they're splitting the reps from the beginning? Is Daniel Jones, like, solidified as the backup the day practices start? How they play this out and what that ultimately means for the Colts, that to me is right after the Vikings quarterback situation. I think the stakes are lower for the Colts from a upside perspective. I don't think it matters who the Colts quarterback is. I don't think they're a Super Bowl contender this

year. But when it comes to the job security and the both short and long-term future of the franchise, who ends up being the quarterback for the Colts this year has very real implications, Derek. Yeah. For the story of the season, this matters way less because neither of these quarterbacks are probably going to be superstars or, you know, lead the team to 12 wins the way that we might get with the Vikings. But yeah, in terms of saving job security, it matters way more than the Vikings. but nothing Kevin O'Connell can do this year is going to get him fired. But if the Colts quarterback battle doesn't go very well and they win five, six games, like, yeah, that entire coaching staff and maybe the front office is going to be looking for jobs in a few months here.

So I think what is your initial inclination of who's actually getting starting reps there? Because I think a month ago I would have thought that they are going to try to give Anthony Richardson every opportunity. I'm less optimistic that that is the case at this point. I don't know the answer to that. And I think that's why I'm so interested in it. I haven't really talked to anybody there. Obviously, people are on break. I got back from vacation, like as everyone else left, which is early June through the

middle of July. And so that's probably going to, I mean, it's going to be the biggest question I ask when I'm in Indianapolis, which is I think August 10th is when I'll be there. But I don't have a good feel for what they want to have happen. And David, I want your perspective on this because Derek and I have talked about this a bunch all spring. And my feeling on this is if Daniel Jones ends up becoming the better quarterback option for the Colts, it's a big.

bad thing no matter how well Daniel Jones plays. Because that means the Anthony Richardson experiment has failed or you've decided to move on from it. And even if we're optimistic about the general state of everything else regarding the Colts offense, the play caller, the offensive line, which has more questions now than it has over the last couple years, and the weapons, which I think are objectively good, I still feel like Daniel Jones can only get you so far. Like, is this an 11-win team if Daniel Jones plays decent?

I don't know if it is, and if it's not, if this is a 9 and 18 that misses the playoffs again, I don't think that's a good situation for the Colts. Like, in my mind, the best possible outcome here, if you're Chris Ballard and Shane Steichen, is Anthony Richardson wins this job and Anthony Richardson looks good. Do you have a different perspective on how this could work out no matter who the quarterback is? Let me preface by saying, this is my favorite time of year because I love to squint and just like imagine what could go right. You know, like that's more fun.

And so I actually, I disagree with you a little bit because I think we talked about this. We were all together last week and we were, you know, we were shooting the shit about this type of stuff. And we were talking about supporting casts. And like, if you look at the Colts and ignore the most important position, I think there's a lot to like. I was very curious that they didn't try harder to beef up their offensive line. after free agency. And it reminded me of last year when they just decided their secondary didn't matter. And that was a bad decision. I'm curious about the offensive line. But like I, A, I trust them if they like their guys. B, the skill players, I think are phenomenal. It's, it's not a receiver core that's

going to get you super excited, but it's just a solid, deep receiver core. You add a first round tight in to that group, which is exciting. And it's a guy, you know, in. I forgot they did that. Yeah, Tyler, by the way, Tyler Warren can do a lot of fun stuff and he can line up in a variety of different roles. Like that is, especially for a play caller like Shane Steichen, who I respect, he can do a lot of stuff for you. By the way, J.T. is a criminally overlooked running back in the whole hierarchy of this thing, especially as somebody who had him in fantasy down the home stretch last year, I love me some Jonathan Taylor. I love the signings that they made in their secondary in free agency. So if Daniel Jones can play well, like if Daniel Jones can repeat his giant stint in 2022, and Shane Steichen can use his mobility as a factor, like I think this team could make the

playoffs. I think they could, I hate myself for putting this on the record, but like I can imagine a world where the culture are surprising like 10-win team. I think that's possible. What makes it fascinating, Robert, is I still agree with you. Because if Daniel Jones gets you to 10 and 7 and you lose in the wild card round, is that enough to offset the fact that you botched the Anthony Richardson thing? Because then you need another quarterback.

You're sitting there at the end of the year. And then we're back on the quarterback wheel again. We're back on the quarterback wheel. Do we want to make the same mistake the Giants did and pay Daniel Jones a boatload of money for one good season? not really, and we made a risky, risky pick taking this inexperienced quarterback in the top five, and it failed. So like, I can see the Colts going 10 and 7 and reaching the playoffs and still maybe firing everybody because the like the way it all played out just left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. So they're a very interesting team because navigating this road in a way that

keeps everybody in their job, I think is going to be hard to do. And we also haven't mentioned new ownership. The fact that now you have different people in charge of the organization, like, what are their expectations? There are just so many different layers to this. Derek, I hesitate to do this because I think it's a good idea and I don't really want to step on it. But I do want to frame the conversation we were all having last week as it relates to Daniel Jones. So what we brought up is if Jared Gough was the quarterback for all 32 teams in the NFL, would the Colts be a playoff team? And I think all three of us believe that they would be.

So I think the question here is, how close can Daniel Jones get to what we might reasonably expect from Jared Gough? Oh, that's a more dangerous question. I feel like the Jared Gough just like flatly put him on every team is just like then you can, how close can Daniel Jones get to Jared Gough? I don't think close enough. I just, that's where I land as well. And I think that's because I have a pretty high opinion of Jared Gough. I think it's that like Jared Gough, I think I have a much higher opinion of him now that I might have.

of when Daniel Jones kind of had his peak two years ago. But the Daniel Jones peak in 2022 was such a specific thing. And I also just think he's been a worse player since then. Obviously, part of that has been the, you know, the giant situation was not exactly tenable for any good quarterback play. But I think individually he was a little bit worse. So there's just, unless Shane Steichen really can turn things around with him, I can't imagine that he's going to be close enough to Jared Gough.

But I am kind of in Dave's camp. You know, you remember Robert when we did the AFC show. I had the Colts less like the fourth or fifth best supporting cast in the conference. Like I think they're a really good cast. It's just, you know, they might have the 29th best quarterback in the league. And I tend to agree with that. I want to be a lot more excited about the Colts than I am. And it's mainly, it's mainly the quarterback that holds me back.

Do you think are we, the entire tone of this conversation is just writing off the Anthony Richardson thing. Like, do we, are we still having at least a flicker of a candle lit about this working out with Anthony Richardson. I'm shielding myself. Like, I'm done emotionally investing in it because I did so much during the draft cycle and so much during his rookie season and second season. And it's not even for me just that like, oh, he's not been the player I wanted him to. It's been so much of it is injury stuff. And we're already dealing with it again in camp a little bit. And so for me, I'm just like shielding myself from like, he's probably, even if he starts the year, he's probably not going to

play 16 games again. And we're going to be in this spot again by the time we get to next March. And I just, I just don't want to hurt myself again. I think that's probably, the fact that we just spent 10 minutes on that is indicative of how important we all think it is. But we are going to take our first quick break and then get back with our next set of questions here. All right, Dave, what's your next one here? Your next big question that you got on your mind as training camp kicks off. I think I mentioned it on a previous show that we did. And it's weighed heavily on my mind ever since the news came out very recently.

It's a very new development. But my big question is how quickly and how well can Tristan Worf's get back? in the lineup and how do the bucks potentially adapt without him? Because I, it, you know, I had been formulating this take all offseason. And it just, it took all the wind out of my sales. Because you look at the bucks on paper, assuming you like Baker Mayfield, which I do, and assuming you're not super worried about the offensive coordinator change, which I'm not, because they've overcome it two years in a row, I love what the bucks have. I love what they bring to the table.

I thought they made smart additions. I really feel like this is a team that could take a step beyond just winning a bad division. But you lose one of the best left tackles in football right before training camp. One of the best players in football. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you could potentially not have them for the first month of the season. And that's what I think is interesting is, and obviously rooting for Tristan Worf's to recover as well.

as possible. I don't want him to put himself in harm's way by coming back too soon. But we see this stuff with alien football players all the time where the prognosis on July 10th is PUP going to miss a month of the season and the guy beats that timeline easily. And if there's somebody that could do that, Tristan Worf's is that category of athlete where I wouldn't be surprised if in mid-August were hearing rumblings like, oh, don't be so quick to use that pup designation just yet. Like Tristan Worf's is working out on the solo field during practice and they're going to try to get him some reps on Friday.

That is very easy to imagine. And so I've got a close eye on that. And if, unfortunately, if he can't come back that quickly, how do they offset that? Because that is such a big, big loss that it could linger. And yeah, I think Derek and I talked about it. I mean, they play what? They play the Falcons, Texans, Jets, Eagles. in the first month of the season. And by the way, weeks five and six, it's Seattle and San Francisco,

which both have pass rushes you need to factor in as well. So that's true brutal. It is. And so if he's not available, this could be a struggle. Charlie Heck is the name to learn because that is the guy tasked with replacing Tristan Wirfs at left tackle. So rooting for you, Charlie Heck, but hopefully we don't have to watch you play too much football because Tristan Worf's will be available. It feels like Charlie Heck has been at every single team. It's mostly just because he's been out. He's had to play a little bit.

Like Charlie Hack has had some time. Like last year, obviously the Niners had some injuries. Like it just, we've all had to kind of white knuckle it with Charlie Heck for three games or some version of Charlie Heck and our time as NFL fans. The Tristan Wharfs thing, I want to look at it optimistically as well. Like I want to look at the Tristan Wharf situation and assume, sorry, I just got distracted by where Charlie Heck went to high school. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

I want to look at the Tristan Wharf situation and believe he can come back quicker than those four games. But isn't it just as likely that the opposite thing happens? When we've got lingering knee injuries, and now it's a month into the season, and he comes back, but he's not quite right. And now we're all the way to week 8, and Tristan Worf's doesn't look like Tristan Wurfs.

And you combine that with the play caller thing. And I tend to agree with you, Dave, that they'll be okay because they break back so much of the rest of the staff, the run game coordinator. Grazard was on the staff last year. I don't think this is going to bottom out by any stretch. But when I look at this team, the Eagles, the Lions,

this isn't about going from a high-end offensive coordinator to somebody who can't tie his shoes. This is about going from a guy in Liam Cohen who could build the third or fourth best offense in the league to maybe somebody who gets you to like the 11th or 12th best offense in the league. When it comes to just the pure quality of the design and the coordination of the offense. And that sort of gap matters when you have goals at the highest level.

When you want to compete for more than the division, if you have that sort of step back, if you're Detroit, if you're Tampa, if you're the Eagles, that matters. You need to be squeezing every single drop you can out of this. And I think that's where you can start to build a pessimistic case for the bucks, even if I don't want to, if Worf's injury lingers, if the offensive coaching is one step down from what it's been, if the young defense doesn't come together in the way that we're hoping,

does this team land in a similar range to what we've seen over the last couple years, which is a playoff team, but it's not the step forward, Derek, that I think legitimately you can believe they might take if all those things do come together this year. Yeah, and like, again, I'm probably with you. I don't think they'll bottom out either. You know, again, when we did our supporting casting,

I think I was not that worried about the coordinator change again, because he had been on the staff before and I think that that certainly helps. But when you look at most of the best offenses in the league, like a lot of them have elite left tackles. Like when Trent Williams is playing for the Niners, you know, for the Lions, obviously Pinesu plays on the right side, but they have an elite tackle. Tristan Wurst and worst for the Bucks. Dionne Dawkins for the Bills, like almost all of these guys allow you to get away with stuff that you would not be allowed to get away with otherwise. And for the Bucks, I think that really showed up in their screen game and how they could get Tristan Worse out in space. and so to not have him and be able to weaponize him in that way,

obviously you're going to have to help the left side a little bit, probably more in pass protection, and that's going to leave Gedecchi a little bit more, not exposed because he's a good player, but he's just not going to have as much help as I think maybe he had been used to. So it's going to be a big adjustment period for them. And again, I don't think they're going to suddenly be the 23rd best offense over that stretch. Like they're too talented for that to be the case.

But instead of the eighth best offense, yeah, they might be 16th, and they might have to rely on the defense to a lot of their rookies actually come together and do something this year. I mean, for me, it's not even about being 16th. It's about being 10th compared to being fifth last year. Like, I think that's a reasonable, within like the range of outcomes. I don't think that sort of fall off is even degrading what I think the Bucks are. I think that's a more than reasonable expectation if things fall in line with a first year

offensive coordinator that's not as good as Liam Cohen was last year. Like the Liam Cohen thing is an outlier. That doesn't happen where you have to replace the guy and the guy that got a head coaching job, the second choice is better than he was. So being able to do that again, I just think that that is a tough thing to have to handle for a second straight year. Which is why every morning I'm going to check the Bucks media reports on social and see see if there's a Tristan Wharf's update because if we can get him onto the field by the end of August, then I will feel a hell of a lot better about their chances. Because I mean, it's not a

season-ender, if he does have to go on Pup at all. But if I'm going to buy this narrative that they could be something more than a wild card team or a team that loses on the first weekend, I don't want to go through that with Tristan Wirth's on the sideline for six weeks. I think you're just, you're working uphill. We've talked a lot about when we were together last week about the middle class of the NFL, these teams that are picked to win between eight and a half and nine and a half games. And I think with all of those teams in the middle, you kind of nudge them one way

or the other. And that's the problem with these being the, like, early points on the bucks is that I think it's tempting to nudge them the wrong way when they just as easily could have been pushed up toward the top of the conference. So I think that's why for this team specifically, some of these details are really important to monitor because their season could shift from real true contender to, and we go nine and eight, the Falcons actually win the division. And this isn't the step we thought it was going to be. So I feel like that's why they're very compelling, along with. a lot of the other teams that I do think belong in that range. All right, Derek, your next one is what? Yes, so I'll stick in the NFC kind of middle class with a team that was a little bit disappointing last year, but hopes to be better.

The Dallas Cowboys. So I think there's been a lot of talk this offseason about obviously they go and trade for George Pickin. So there's a lot of, okay, the passing offense, DAC is going to be healthy. And that's kind of been a lot of the discussion. They were a very bad rushing offense last year, like very bad. We spent a lot of air talking about like teams like the race. Raiders, the Seahawks, the Texans as really bad rushing offenses.

The Cowboys were only like a quarter of a tier better than that. They were really, really bad. And again, part of that is they were playing with a backup quarterback for a lot of the season. They didn't have good receivers. So teams could kind of just load up the box. But even when you watch them, I think they're, you could see individual moments from a lot of the young players, but there wasn't as much cohesion as I think that they had wanted.

And then the backfield flatly just wasn't very talented. Like Rico Dattle is fine, but he probably shouldn't be your. lead back going into week one. And then their other option was like Ezekiel Elliott at this stage in his career. And they had almost nobody else. So there's just not a lot of pop in your backfield, not a guy who should have been a work course. And I think we kind of expected them to fix that going into this season.

But really all that's happened is they are losing Zach Martin and Tyler Booker is going to have to step in, which even if you like Tyler Booker, that's a lot to ask him to replace those shoes. And then all they did in the backfield of sign guys like Giovante Williams and Miles Sanders, Javante Williams was. let go of a Denver backfield that I don't think was very good. And then Miles Sanders lost his job by like week five because Chuba Hubbard was just significantly better in Carolina.

And then they obviously drafted Jaden Blue, but he's a 195 pound fifth round pick. Like we just don't know if that's going to be a guy who's going to be a needle mover. So I think Dallas needed the run game to be much better this year. But you kind of look at all they did. And I'm just not sold that that's going to be the case necessarily. All right. Let me play devil's advocate here. Okay.

Okay. Two things. One, Zach Martin was hurt last year and was not really Zach Martin. So I think that the falloff between what we see from Zach Martin and who Tyler Booker is, I think that could be more of a lateral move than it would have been two years ago when we were talking about Zach Martin. The other part of this. The only thing I would say quickly to that is while from a play perspective, I think that that's completely fair. Without Martin, they don't really have like a leader in that.

Like a vet, like an older veteran. It's a lot of young guys. And I just wonder how that might affect some things as well. That's totally reasonable. The other part of this that I'm shocked, you're not taking into consideration, do you know who the Cowboys' Offensive Coordinator is now? Yeah, Clayton.

I know, I know. It should be exciting. It's the Cardinals' old offensive line coach. When we think about the best design run games in the league over the last couple years, the Cardinals are absolutely in that conversation. So I like a team, especially if you're going to have a play calling head coach,

goes straight to the source when it comes to finding the best possible. run game. The running backs, I have no defense. Like, I'm completely with you because I think I think some people would say, well, they had Rico Dowdle and Ezekiel Elliott last year. I think Rico Dowell is actually okay. Like, I actually think Rico Dowell is better than the guys they have right now. So I think they've probably downgraded with running back talent. But I, you'd hope that the offensive line having one more year with those young guys potentially taking a step forward and bringing in somebody who David has proven to be a very good run game designer, even

even if you still have some questions about the personnel, can the structure of it lift this group to at least be an acceptable run game? My enthusiasm for the Brian Schottenheimer era jumped by a solid 30% when I heard that he was hiring Clayton Adams to be their offensive coordinator. And if you're a Dallas fan listening to this, you know what the Arizona Cardinals have done to the Cowboys within the last five years. Every time they play, it's like teach tape on running the ball. So that is very exciting.

And yeah, I'm intrigued. It's a great, it's like a, it's a case study for the whole, you know, we'll relitigate how much does running back matter once again. I mean, we know the elite ones. Yeah, I know, as if we haven't done it enough times. I mean, it honestly, it reminds me a lot of 2015. In 2015, the Cowboys, the year before they drafted Zeke, they trotted Darren McFadden and Alfred Morris out there. Actually, maybe Alfred Morris got there the year after that, but Darren McFadden

was definitely there in 2015, and he had a thousand-yard season running behind the Cowboys' very good offensive line. Yeah, that group isn't walking through the door right now, though. I know. I was, I'm aware, I'm aware, but there's still talent there. I mean, I think the answer to your question about who's going to lead their offensive line is definitely Tyler Smith, who is poised to be one of the better guards in the NFL here over the short, over the next few years, hopefully longer for the Cowboys. And yeah, how much you like Tyler Booker as a player. It's, it ain't that unit at all.

But there is talent on the offensive line and you do have, you know, some fresh ideas and a guy who knows how to get the most out of the run game schematically calling and designing your plays. I'm curious to see how well this works because, I mean, Miles Sanders was an 1,100 yard back in Philly. And everybody kind of acknowledged is like, yeah, but is it, is it him or is it all? of the stuff around him. And obviously, I think we've gotten our answer here over the last two years. But if, if Miles Sanders or Giovante Williams benefits to the stuff around him for a thousand yards, I wouldn't be terribly shocked by that. I think I probably am under aiding the Clayton Adams thing.

But I do to the point of Adams and to the point of Sanders, they both were aided by having mobile quarterbacks. Like obviously, Adams being able to do what he did with some of the Kyler Murray stuff. And then Sanders playing next to Jalen Hertz. I mean, you have the threat there. Change to the numbers a bit. And Dak, I think at this stage in his career, doesn't really have that in his bag anymore.

So I actually do like Clayton Adams, and I think he'll even a lot of his stuff that didn't include the quarterback last year, like their under center, a lot of their pinpole stuff was really, really good. So if he can bring that to Dallas, I'll be more excited. But I guess it was just one of those things.

I thought coming into the off season, they would really try to put the pedal to the medal there on trying to be a more serious run game. And other than the coaching change, I just, it doesn't move the needle for me. I would have liked to see them do a little bit more at running back. But at the same time, the way their draft fell, it made sense to me. And if you've got to wait, if you've got to wait one more year to get a more talented back,

I don't think that's the end of the world. By the way, Alfred Morris shows up in 2016 for the Cowboys. The second leading rusher on the 2015 Dallas Cowboys is won Joseph Randall. There we go. Oklahoma State. That's a blast from the past. One of those upright runners I've ever seen. And Des Bryant was also on that team.

It was near the end for Des Bryant, but we got a lot of former Oklahoma State Cowboys on that 2015 Dallas Cowboys team. All right, let's get to my next one here. Sticking with a team specific one, we're talking about left tackles and how important they are in the Tristan Wharf side of this.

What happens with the Josh Simmons stuff in Kansas City? Obviously, they went out and signed Jalen Moore and Free Agency as just a fail safe. If we don't find somebody we like in the draft, do we have somebody we can play at left tackle to start the season and we bump Kings of Suit Matayor or Juania Morris inside.

When they get Josh Simmons at the end of the first round, I think that calculus changes. And based on everything I've heard, it sounds like Josh Simmons, health-wise, is going to be ready to practice. So how quickly can he assert himself as you're starting left tackle? Because I get the J-Lanmore thing. I get why it's a dice roll to protect yourself. But if he doesn't have to be your week one offensive tackle, because the super talented guy you took in the first round can wrestle that job away. That feels, David, like the best possible

outcome for the chiefs here. I mean, Josh Simmons was one of my favorite prospects at the top of this draft. I, with a clean bill of health, I would have taken him inside the top 15, maybe even top 10. Like, I just think he's one of those. He looks the part of a franchise left tackle from an athleticism standpoint, from the way a guy that big can move in space. It was one of my favorite picks in the draft when they got him. Just the value of that, finding him at the very end of the first round. And I would give him every opportunity to be that guy from day one. I think it's fine if Jalen Moore needs to do it because you did pay him a not small amount of money. So it's not like it's derailing your plans if Jalen Moore wins that job. But if Josh Simmons is good enough that it's

even close, just plug him in there and let it go, especially knowing what Patrick Mahomes is capable of he can probably offset some growing pains for your left tackle. I'm excited to see that. And I actually, I was looking at this too, Robert, because it was one of the questions I was most interested in. Maybe this sounds obvious when you look back at it, but I was just looking over the chiefs over this run the last few years. And it's pretty crazy to me that a team that has achieved dynastic results will be

starting its fourth different left tackle in the last four years. like Derek, you said it earlier in the show. Like the best offense is usually have a great left tackle. And the chiefs have gone from Orlando Brown to Donovan Smith last year's platoon of guys. And they're about to do it again this year. And you can't quite say that they haven't missed a beat. But to regularly be in the Super Bowl and be in the mix that they have while just trotting shit out there on the left side. I mean, if we weren't already impressed by what they've done, that's just another thing that really.

amuses me. Yeah, it's been a hindrance, but not so much so that they can't still get to the Super Bowl every year somehow. I'm with you, Dave. Simmons, if he's healthy, I would be stunned if he doesn't win the job. I just think, you know, and there was some inconsistencies on tape in terms of like hand placement and all that, but I really thought from an athletic standpoint, you look at the length, like he was a really smooth mover in pass pro. Anytime he climbed to the second level in the run game, he was just doing so very comfortably. He was able to. He was able to move people in a way that I thought some of the other tackles at the top of the class, you know, maybe could move to the, you know, get to their landmarks, but weren't able to actually

just put two hands on a guy, move him over here. Like Simmons did that. I think him and Kelvin Banks probably did that better than anyone else at the top of the class. And so Simmons, I think if he is healthy and is able to, you know, play full camp and all that stuff, I think he's going to get the week one job. And I know there's probably some scar tissue from last year, right, of like, oh, big athlete tackle that we took inside of like the top two rounds who's going to start for us immediately went wrong last year but I think Simmons is pretty obviously a different caliber of player than Sua Matai was. I think this is a slightly different set of considerations.

What's interesting to me, I totally agree that I think that Simmons, if he's healthy, there's a good chance he ends up winning that job because even if it's close, Dave, you still are compelled to play the young guy because you want him to get the time. Like that's always, if there's a coin flip or even if he's at a slight tiny disadvantage, I still think you want to put that guy out there as soon as you can. What's interesting to me is, let's say Simmons wins the job. You're paying J.L.N. Moore a lot of money. You can save $7 million against the cap if you trade Jalen Moore.

Is there a team out there that doesn't feel great about their left tackle situation, like the Rams, for example? If we're worried about Alaric Jackson and how that's going to go, they have DJ Humphreys as their backup left tackle. You've got like a $6, $7 million based salary for Jalen Moore. They've already paid his signing bonus, but it's only like $7 million. And again, it would be like $3.5 million in dead money if they were to trade him. So that's something I would at least take a look at.

Like, is the $7 million worth it if you're the chiefs just as insurance? They may say yes, but if you're a team that feels a little bit antsy about their left tackle spot, it might at least be worth a phone call if Simmons wins that job pretty clearly early in camp. At the very least, I'm holding some, I'm holding that team up for a good price because if I'm the chiefs and I know that like I'm very likely going to be playing in conference championship game weekend or at least that's how we approach things. What has cost the chiefs in both of the Super Bowls that they've lost? You can't over-extend yourself in terms of paying it for left tackles. If I got to overpay for a swing tackle, then that is the, that is just fine with me. I would not be in a hurry to get rid of my O line depth.

They're probably okay paying a premium for insurance at this point. I think that's correct. I think you guys are right. It's just one of those things that's instantly where my mind goes. It's like, oh, well, if he's just going to be sitting there and you can save a little bit of money, who'd be interested in that? It would probably require a left tackle injury at that point because that's when a team would be willing to pay a price that if you're Kansas City, maybe you would start listening.

All right, before we move on, we're going to take a quick break. Let's get to our next one here. Dave, you and I both had this one, something brewing in Jacksonville and what we will be watching throughout all of Jack's camp. What do you got in your mind? It's funny because so many of these questions are like existential and how is this guy going to play? How much better is he going to get? And what's this unit going to do? And it's it's all very macro league landscape type of stuff. As far as this, I'm just interested in the mechanics of how Travis Hunter goes through his first NFL training camp.

Like, I'm not trying to project the future. I just want to see what he does. Like, I've never seen something like this in my career or my time as a football fan where I don't know what Travis Hunter is going to do or how the Jags are going to use him. And how often can we say that about a guy? Like Trevor Lawrence did an interview with the pardon my take guys recently where he was like, yeah, I mean, I don't know how much offense he's going to play and how much defense he's going to play. Like the quarterback doesn't know that.

Like what's their game plan? Yeah, like let Trevor Lawrence know. Like is, is Travis going to have Mondays on offense and Tuesdays on defense? Is he going to run between drills? Like is he going to do individuals with one side one day and on the other side the next day? Is he going to would it like how much fun would it be if Travis Hunter did one-on-ones as receiver jogged back to the huddle and then did a rep as a defender like all within the same drill period like i don't know it all feels like it's on the table it's enough to make me wish that i

even even knowing how hot it is in jacksonville i would love to just go hang out at practice and watch Travis hunter like i we've never seen anything like this and how he goes through these first you know whatever 25 practices of his NFL career it just sounds like it's going to be really fun and i want to know what it looks like. That is my plan. When I'm there for the one day that I'm going to be there, I think I'm just going to watch whatever Travis Hunter does all day. I'm going to tell John Chipley like, listen, buddy, I know you got other stuff to worry about. You should just do like a Travis Hunter practice diary every single day, like what his day to day moment by moment beat by beat looked like because I would read that. I am very curious about that. So this is one that's at the top of the

list for me for everything that you said, David. It's just the mechanics of the practices, how he's spending his time, where he's doing drills, what their mindset is with that. I mean, going to be something I ask people when I'm down there. And this to me extends to just the Jags offense in general to an extent. Because Derek, spoiler, we recorded an episode that's going to run next week or at some point the next couple weeks about the best offenses in the league from last year. And the amount of times the bucks came up on that show, just some of the ideas that they were trotting out, the structure, the screen game, so many elements of what that offense was

from a design perspective, I'm intrigued by what that's going to look like with Liam Cohen and Jacksonville. And obviously you only did it for a year. There are plenty of examples. There's a graveyard of guys who have stumbled as they've gotten from the coordinator to head coach. But I am just so interested in what some of those ideas are just the general creativity, even if they're different ideas from the Bucks offense last year, looks like when you grafted on to Brian Thomas Jr., Travis Hunter, Trevor Lawrence, and even like Britain's strange. Like I just, I'm so much more interested in the Jags offense now because of

what the Bucks were last year, independent of who the players even are. And I think because of that, because Liam Cohen is an offensive guy, and he's coming in and the expectation is that he needs to, you know, quote, fix Trevor Lawrence and really make this an explosive offense. And in theory,

if you have Brian Thomas Jr. and Travis Hunter, you can really do a lot of that. I'm glad you used the word like grafting the offense on it. I think if you just asked Travis Hunter to do a lot of what Chris Godwin did last year, especially with a lot of their screen game and some of the easy touches that they were giving, like that would be incredible. I think that's the point of drafting a guy like Travis Hunter. I'm curious now, like, less the mechanics of how practices are going to go and what's his split going to be offense and defense.

There's got to be a percentage chance that they get to like August 15th and they're like, this shit is not worth that he's just going to play offense. And that is more curious. Like, I wonder if they just get to a point where they're like, we know he can handle it, but this is just not worth the circus of trying to coordinate all this stuff. Like, let's just, we're going to try to have the eighth best offense this year. and to do so, we need him to play all of the snaps on offense. Cynically, can you justify what you did for him in the draft if that's what you're going to do? Because I think some of the selling point of we're willing to trade away a future first round pick for this guy to move up a few spots is that he's not just a normal player. He's not one player.

He's one and a half players. So I wonder, that shouldn't be a reason, right? Like there's a sunk cost part of that that if that's in the back of your mind, like, all get scum. skewered for this if he only plays one side of the ball. That's a bad reason to make a decision if you're James Gladstone and that staff. But I wonder if any of that is lingering in the back of their minds, Dave, as they think about how they're going to use him. I mean, I tend to agree with you to do this. And I mean, he's a phenomenal player. He could be an amazing receiver and maybe justify it. I mean, Julio Jones just played receiver. That's all he did. And I don't think the Falcons.

Joe Jones. I don't think the Falcons didn't regret that trade though. I mean, obviously to do this trade, you think he's going to be a special player. If he's merely, I'm being facetious here, if he's merely an all pro receiver, I don't think the Jacks will regret doing the trade. But I do like, you got to, I think you got to dream big with this, though. Like with what we know he's capable of, I do think you got to find a way to unlock as much as possible, at least in the early going of his career.

career. You know, Patrick Peterson was a pro-bowl, all-pro punt returner for the first few years of his career until the Cardinals realized like, hey, you're just, you're too good at corner for us to be doing this. At the very least, in the beginning, I think you got to give him a chance to showcase everything. And I do, what I would say is, as exciting as it sounds, I would be shocked if this guy is ping ponging around the practice field every single day doing everything. Like I would guess The smart way to do this is like, you know, we practice four days in a row before we break. One out of the four, you'll do a defense day. And the other three will be offense.

Like that would be my guess. But that's what makes it so interesting is we just don't know. And I mean, the Jags are the only people that do know because they have to design the scripts and the practice plans. But even they can't say for sure how it's going to work because this just isn't normal NFL stuff. So I'm sure whatever their plan is right now, it will change. Even if they don't like completely rip it up, they'll change something because of like, hey, my legs are a little heavier than I thought they would be.

Or like I'm just not getting enough time with Trevor, et cetera, et cetera. It's just really interesting. But I do think I think you got to give him a chance to showcase as much as possible, at least in these first couple years of his career. At least I hope so. Let's get to your next one here, Derek. I love your set of questions. here because it just speaks to your psyche.

Like this one is all about like what's keeping you up at night about like certain weak link position groups. It's just, it's very telling where you decided to take this exercise. Yeah. I mean, that's the whole point. We've,

we've had so many months now of hope. We have the draft build up and then we have the end of free agency and all this stuff and so much thinking about hope. And now that the season's getting here, it's like, you know, you've got the guy creeping on the back of your shoulder. Like, hey, man,

are you sure about X, and Z? And for me, I look at the Philadelphia Eagles. And obviously, whatever happens for them this year doesn't matter. They just won the Super Bowl. They could win five games and it doesn't really matter. But I do look at the roster and I look at specifically the secondary.

And I'm a little worried that this like this secondary unit is not going to be good enough. And I think, you know, we thought that going into last year and then the rookies were obviously insane. But I think the way that I would frame why I'm worried about it. Obviously, I'm not worried at all about Cooper DeGine and Queen Nunn Mitchell. Those dudes are like pro bowl level corners right now today. Don't have to think about it. last year, the fifth best DB on the team was Reed Blankenship. And he's decent as a guy who can come down into the box, fit the C gap and be a decent run player.

He's okay at covering the middle of the field and covering checkdowns. But he's not like a needle moving player. Because they let go of guys like Darius Slay, traded Gardner Johnson, even Isaiah Rogers is no longer. Like all of this stuff that they've done over the past couple of years, they've kind of bleated a lot of depth at that position. And now reblankenship is going from your fifth best DB to your third best DB potentially, unless Andrew McCuba is just like awesome. But that's the other thing is you're betting on an undersized safety to really step up

and be a needle mover for you. So I still think the defense will be nice, obviously. Like the front is way too talented for them to be bad. And Vic Fangio is amazing. But there is to me a chance like if this defense feels shaky for a large portion of the season, it'll be because the non-Dijin and Mitchell DBs just aren't. playing at a high enough level. Here's what I'll say about this.

If I were looking at it right now on July 20th, I would agree with that. If there is one team, eh, the Ravens I would also throw in here. If there are a couple teams where I would trust them being proactive about adding a veteran DB late in the process because they come to the conclusion of we're just not good or deep enough, this would be the team. This isn't like a hypothetical thing. I can point to two late offseason DB moves that they have made. in the last like eight years.

When they won the Super Bowl in 2017, they signed Ronald Darby on like August 10th. And then they traded for CJ Gardner Johnson right before the season started a couple years ago. So this is something that he has consistently, Howie, been willing to do late into the offseason when he thinks that they just need one more piece for that group to come together.

So let's say, just hypothetically, they signed Rasul Douglas, okay, to be that other outside corner because they don't love Keely Ringo or just whoever. name your guy. Do you feel better about this group if they do something like that? Where now, Makuba really becomes the biggest question mark that you have, and re-blankenship is probably tied for your third best defensive back.

Like, that's the sort of mover. I think I'd be a little bit more encouraged by it. And I would not rule that out whatsoever based on this team's history. I think if they signed a Douglas or even a Gilmore to at least give them depth, because like I'm a little worried about what Kaylee Ringo is going to look like as a starter. But I'm also worried about like, okay, what if Mitchell or Ringo go down? You're banking on Adori Jackson at this stage in his career to potentially step in for you, Eli Ricks, who has been, I think, extremely up and down when he's been asked to play for them.

So it's like, to me, it's not just the day one starters. It's that the depth is a little bit shaky to me. So getting some competition in there, I think would be really helpful. I was about to ask if y'all had any faith in Adori Jackson being a viable piece of this at this point in his career. How old is Adory Jackson? A Dori Jackson is 29 turning 30 in September. You could have told me he was 38 years old. I'd been like, yeah, that sounds right.

I mean, turning 30 in September. He is 38 by NFL cornerback standards. Yeah, once you're over 27 as a corner, you become 35. This is his age 30 season. So, I mean, I do think that that is worth pointing out. He turns 30 in like a month and a half. So two months. Actually, my math is terrible.

This is how bad and this is how much my brain is cooked. His birthday is exactly two months from today. And I was like, oh, his birthday is in a month and a half. I just, I'm completely unable to read or process information at this stage. I also really love the thought that Chauncey Gardner Johnson has been, I don't want to say a catalyst, but like he has been a valuable piece of two defenses that got the Eagles to the Super Bowl. And immediately after those games, the Eagles were like, all right, later, Chauncey. And it would be funny if the secondary.

once again went south with C.J. Gardner Johnson down in Houston. And yeah, I don't know. Maybe he's just the missing piece. Maybe you need that guy with the shit in his neck to keep everything together on the back end. I don't know. Well, how much of just, how miserable must it be to like have CJ Gardner Johnson be on your team? The fact that he plays pretty well in all of these stops and is part of good secondaries. And we know this. Like if you have secondary chemistry, if the pieces all fit together, that's worth its weighed in gold. So the idea that all. So the idea that all of these teams every single year are willing to be like, eh, you know, that was pretty good, but are we really willing to deal with that again?

Especially, like, the Eagles did it already. Like, he helped them, and he played well in the 3835 Super Bowl. And they're like, no, we got to move on. And then they immediately were like, we're sorry, Chauncey, we screwed that up, please come back. And then they traded him, which I like the trade for the record. Like, I, you know, I think Kenyon Green could be something in that environment. And I don't dislike the trade.

I just, I think it's kind of funny. Yeah, and that's actually really quickly the last thing I want to say. Like, I don't even blame the Eagles for this approach, by the way, of like, oh, we'll let Ringo get a bunch of snaps and we'll draft a new safety and we'll let some younger guys get some snaps. It's just, I still look at the 2025 roster and I'm like, this could be a problem. This could be a little bit of issue. Maybe we'll get to October and be like, man, having a Johnson Gardner Johnson would be pretty nice right about now. This is the type of stuff you just have to do when you're pruning a little bit. Eventually, you have to make some hard decisions when you're in a spot where the Eagles are.

They didn't anticipate resigning Zach Bond to this sort of contract. Every once in a while, you're just thrust into a slightly different position. I will say, the last thing about C.J. Gardner Johnson and the Texans, the idea that he might be like the third or fourth craziest member of the Texan secondary, that is good. Like, at least he's not going to be an outlier personality-wise in that building compared to what he might be in some others. So I think the Texans are well positioned to deal with him. All right, two more here. I can run through these because there's like 10 of them.

But it's kind of similar to what Derek is getting at with the Eagle secondary. There are just so many offensive lines they're going to be reshuffled this year. And this is the type of shit that I'm interested in with training camp. It's like, who's the right guard working with the first team? Like just the type of unhealthy stuff that I spend my time worrying about at this point in the calendar. So let me run through some of these. Who's the Seahawks right guard going to be? Right? So we like, what does the left guard look like the first round pick? Who wins the right guard job? Like, how do they all look like they're jelling together? The Texans interior offensive line? The Texans left tackle spot. Like, does Ersary win that job from Cam Robinson? Is it Jared Patterson and Drew Scruggs at that center and guard spot? Do some of the veterans win out on those jobs? In Green Bay, what does that look like? Like, is Rashid Walker going to be the left tackle? Like, do we think Anthony Belton has a chance to win that job? Is Jordan Morgan going to be the right guard from day one? Like, how does that all come to?

together. What does the Bears left tackle competition look like with Ozzie Chupelo and Brexton Jones there coming back from injury? The Bengals, who wins the Bengals right garb job between Lucas Patrick and Cody Ford, which is that, you know, that's always a fun thing to care about. It sends a lot about my current mental state. And then what happens with Dylan Fairchild at that left guard spot? The Raiders, the Raiders draft all these guys in the third round. They have a ton of depth. How do those spots end up shaking out? Alex Kappa is involved there. So what does that group look like? Because I think that group and how. they come together is a really big question for what the Raiders are ultimately going to be this

year. And then Washington. What happens with Washington? Is Brandon Coleman get one of those guard jobs? When does Sam Cosmy come back? Is Josh Connerly a day one starter at right tackle? I'm sure we could list off like 10 more. But this is the type of stuff that I pay the most attention to at this point in the calendar because it's the type of stuff I spend all offseason obsessing over Derek. I think the Packers are the funniest because I think on one hand, they probably have the least idea of how it's actually going to roll out. I really think they're going to get to camp and just roll out a bunch of different combinations of five and see what happens. I also think it matters the least about who ends up out there. They're going to be good no matter. Like, they're going to be good.

They might not be elite. They might not be, you know, the Eagles or anything. But like, I have the most faith that they will figure it out. And I also have the least idea of what the five is going to look like. And then to me, the other one that I actually want to touch on out of all of these is Washington. And to me, it's not even really about Connerly or Coleman. I feel like, the Sam Cosmi not being able to potentially play early on in the season has kind of gone like under the radar. Like we've talked so much about Connerly coming in and then getting tonsil and it's like, well, their best guy from last year just might not play.

And I think that that if the interior is not going to be as beefed off as they want, that could cause literally the opposite problems that they had from last year. I think one more or two that's worth mentioning. I don't, if you mentioned it, Robert, I apologize. You did mention quite a few. But all of a sudden, the lion's situation. is very interesting. The Frank Ragnall retirement,

that was another one that kind of hit me in the gut because I was like, ooh, that is the type of move that could really change my opinion of what the lions are capable of. So I assume Tate Ratlidge is the favorite to step in and start. How well can he do it? And I mean, that's the type of thing

that could really drastically affect the season and in a bad way if he's not ready for it. So all those, I'm always interested to see how rookies handle situations like that because it's easy to plug a guy in because he's a top 100 pick. We know how hard it is to adjust to offensive line in the NFL. So yeah, Fairchild in Cincinnati, Rattledge in Detroit, some of the young tackles. We talked about Simmons, Connerley in Washington as well. Like it sounds really good to plug that guy into the lineup, but it's easier said than done.

And obviously that can just that can have such an impact on so many teams. The last thing I mentioned with the Lions, and this could have been one of ours, period, but just monitoring all the guys who are going to start training camp on the Puplist, like Taylor Decker, Christian Wilkins, like how many of these things actually linger deep into camp, how much of this is just giving guys a little bit of a breather as we get into it. And by the time we get to August 5th, they're off the Puplist, their wheels up, they're going to be ready for week one. Like those are the types of things I absolutely feel like are worth monitoring as we move

through the next couple weeks here. Last one, David, we're letting you close this out with our 10th and final question. Your final big question as we get training camp started here this week is what? Very similar to my Travis Hunter question. I was looking for things that actual practices can really inform us about, right? Because a lot of the stuff we're talking about, we can formulate ideas and predictions based on training camp, but we really can't know some of this stuff until the season starts. one thing that we will learn right away is what the hell does a four-man quarterback competition even look like? And I've been beating this drum since the Cleveland Browns did what they did. But I'm fascinated, again, by the mechanics of finding space in your practice for four different quarterbacks that presumably are supposed to have an equal chance to win the starting job.

At least that's how I'm approaching it. So, I mean, if you've never gone to an NFL training camp or seen a live practice, there's really not that much opportunity to play 11-on-11 football. Like, in a given day, you might run 40 to 50 snaps of 11-on-11, maybe even less than that, depending on how much work the coaches want to do. Obviously, your starter is going to get the vast majority of that. In a typical NFL training camp, your backup might get 10 reps, and if you've got a third string guy, he might get five, if that.

And by the way, if you have a fourth quarterback, typically, he's just happy to be there. Like, he's running Pat and Go with the receivers. He's helping guys get loose. He's very, very fortunate if he gets into 11 on 11 once or twice in a day or even in a week. So now think about that and think about the fact that we now have 40-year-old Joe Flacco, Kenny Pickett, who was acquired in a trade, and two rookie draft picks who you want to see a lot of, Kevin Stafansky's got his work cut out for him.

And the scripts are going to be very interesting. And I don't really know how the math makes sense. Robert, I'm counting on you to give us some insight on this when you get out there. I cannot wait. I just assume that Kevin Stafansky's office looks like a beautiful mind right now, whereas it's just papered in stuff and just like yarn connecting everything everywhere. Like that's pretty much what he's going to have to do. or to organize all these practices.

I think the most confusing part to me is like, it's not just how do you divvy out the reps in terms of the numbers, right? It's in terms of like who gets them because there's part of it that you could rationalize like, well, maybe because Joe Flacco's a little bit older, he doesn't need as many reps as the younger guys that we just drafted, you know, in the top 100 like Dylan Gabriel at the same time.

If Joe Flacco gets like seven reps in practice, is he going to be like, do I want to be here? Like, do I really want to be here? doing this at my station like I should be the starting quarter like it's just such a the dynamics of who actually gets reps and why is going to be like it's just completely fascinating to me that's I tried to rationalize it too and I thought to myself right after the draft I like well flacco's 40 how much time does he really need on task but at the same time if he is a guy that you want to start like your starter in addition to competing like you do need to be getting

somebody ready for the start of the regular season. Exactly. That's part of the point. So you can't just put Joe Flacco on the shelf for a month and expect him to be worth a shit in September. So I don't know. Something's got to give. Like if I had to guess right now, I think Kenny Pickett is going to get pinched a little

bit just because like he's he's not as good right now as Joe Flacco is. And you didn't give up that much to get him. Whereas, you know, Shadur Sanders and Dylan Gabriel are. are rookies that you just brought in. You want to see what those guys can do. My educated guess is that Kenny Pickett kind of gets screwed over a little bit, but also I have no idea. Maybe Kevin Stefansky is going to have like two practices going at the same time or something.

I don't know. It's going to take some creative problem solving. Yeah. No, he needs to bring in some more undrafted free agents or something. I don't know. Yeah. For me, the Kenny Pickett thing was trying to protect yourself a little bit, depending on how the draft was going to go, right?

We're taking a low cost risk here for a guy that we think has been in bad situations. But when you draft two quarterbacks, I think that the need for somebody like Kenny Pickett and somebody with that profile starts to go away. So I feel like Kenny Pickett is just somebody you could move on from. His contract is guaranteed because he's still on his rookie deal. Because he's been traded twice. He's still on his rookie contract. I guess he hasn't been cut.

Yeah, okay. He is on the fourth year. It's not even like the fifth year option obviously didn't get picked up. Kenny Pickett is on the fourth and final year of his rookie contract. So that $2.6 million is guaranteed. So you'd be on the hook for the dead money. But at this point, you're paying it anyway. And it honestly might be worth the logistical relief in order to move on from him

if you don't think he has a real chance to be in your plans this year. Wait, are you telling me that the Browns might pay a lot of money to a quarterback that's not going to play for them? Oh, no. Where have we heard that before? The Browns lose two and a half million dollars in the couch every week. So I think that paying candy picket two and a half million dollars and dead money to go away is something they could probably afford to do. All right. That is all we've got for today. Very, very excited about training camps getting started this week. We're back. No more vacations, obviously. We're full speed ready to go here. We're going to be having a ton of shows coming to your guys's way all throughout training camp. We're going to have. We're going to have.

our four shows a week and we're bringing back to beat writer notebooks this year. I'm making 20-ish stops. We've got beat writers at a ton of these teams. So we're going to be hearing from a lot of the athletic writers. We're going to be dropping those into the feet on the weekend. That is the plan that we currently have moving forward for camp. So please be on the lookout for that. There's going to be no shortage of stuff coming from the athletic football show. Very excited about it. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.