The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Packers, Rams, & Titans panic index, the Steelers still unbeaten, Colts, DK Metcalf & more in our week 8 review

Episode Date: November 2, 2020

How should Packers, Rams, and Titans fans feel after some concerning losses? Will anyone step up and beat the Steelers? And how many adjectives are there to describe what DK Metcalf is doing? Join The Athletic's Robert Mays and Nate Tice for a review of week 8's biggest storylines, from the Colts and Philip Rivers finally putting it together, to the ridiculous suckerpunch from the Bears' Javon Wims, an intriguing 'Would You Rather' scenario and so much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Join as always by Nate Tice. Nate, how are you? I'm doing great. We're eight weeks in. This was kind of one of those any given Sunday weeks, wasn't it? I mean, we still got Monday night to go, but it was one of those weeks where anyone could beat anyone, and that's what makes it fun.

A lot of upsets. We'll get to those. It's November 1st. That's crazy to me. How many horror movies did you watch in the past three weeks? If you had the ballpark I'd say a half dozen I'd say about six

That's about where I was That's about where I was I watched We watched Cabin in the Woods last night All timer I really liked that one One of my favorite movies Of the last decade

Like every single time I watch it It's just as good From start to finish Just eminently enjoyable That's what I said to you last night It's perfect It's when I saw that in college I remember just being so pleasantly surprised

Because I'm pretty good I'll watch one trailer for a movie I'll see kind of rotten tomato score some other stuff. I really like going in like fresh-eyed. Like even when I didn't know anything either. Yeah. Best way to see that movie. So that's why I was like, oh, Josh Sweden. Okay. All right. Chris Hemsworth in it. And that was right. He was like he was before he was even Thor he filmed in that movie. But also. Well, because they filmed like two years earlier. They made it in like 2010 or something.

And it came out like 2012. And they took forever to release it. Yeah. I know. It was great. We, uh, my wife and I watched a cabinet or not Kevin in the Woods. We watched Friday 13th, part four final Friday. Wow. Great schlock. If you guys are looking for a shlocky movie, I highly recommend that one. Didn't get to watch The Thing this year, which is my personal favorite horror movie. I did both of the Happy Death Day movies, which I love time loop movies, one of my all-time favorite genres. So it was great.

So there was a lot of schlock on the TV for this entire month. There was a lot of schlock on the TV during week eight in the NFL. Surprising results. So to sift through this, here's what we're going to do. I want to go through all of the contenders that lost today. I would say that there are three that were upset in notable ways. And that's the Rams, the Titans, and the Packers. And I want to ask you how worried you are about all of them.

We're going to do sort of a panic index here about where you're sitting with all these teams. So let's start with what was, in my opinion, the most shocking just because it was so lopsided early in the game. And that's the Dolphins in the Rams. So Miami beats the Rams 28 to 17. They're up the entire game, thanks to some fluky plays in the first half. Rams dropped to five and three. The dolphins are four in three. And seemingly could win that division based on how uninspiring the bills have looked over the last couple weeks

and how well the dolphins are playing. Golf was 15 of 32 for 136 and two picks in the first half. He was hit eight times in this game. It just felt like one of those days where everything goes wrong for the Rams, especially in the first half. So just laying it out there on a scale of 1 to 10 based on this game, how concerned are you about the Rams moving forward? I would say I'm just at a three with the Rams.

I think they've done enough this season and they're doing enough kind of innovative stuff offensively and defensively that I'm kind of like they're kind of doing good things where they're kind of seeing the game and where it's going as far as the schemes of football, especially defensively. And I actually think this game maybe speaks more to the dolphins and what how great of a job they did on defense. I totally agree. Yeah, I actually was shocked going into today.

I looked it up afterwards. I didn't even realize the dolphins were six. them passing DVOA. And it showed today how well they affected golf with all the pressures they brought, especially on third down. And actually they mixed it up when they brought these Belichick pressures. I guess I actually think the pressures that they brought today, I actually think it is called the Miami.

Like that's like the code word for it is Miami, which is kind of funny. That's great. Yeah. And so like we'll see Patricia try and run it like in Detroit. But it's cool seeing one of the disciples of Belize. check actually run these pressures how they properly should be run and actually being affecting the quarterbacks and they really did a good job like they it reminded me a lot of last year the seeing ghost game with darnald and belchick yeah it's a good comparison yep so it was all those cover zero looks

and then some of them they're dropping out of it and what the rules of that that pressure is is it was on the first interception that got off through the rules of that one is uh offensive line full slides and they kept catching the rams with this all day to day so they full slide and the rules are the mugged up defenders will drop away from the sliding offense of Lyman into where the hot throws should be, the crossers. And you saw Goff anticipating the pressure, trying to replace it with the crosser, and there's a guy just dropping right into it and getting the easy kick. It wasn't even the linebacker. It was a defensive line. It was a defensive lineman. They have these guys standing up and doing it. And that's what's so cool. And they just totally fooled Goff. And you

could see McVeigh afterwards going like, we went over this dude. Like you can see him talking to him after the first pick. He's like, dude, remember this is what they bring. And, and he just, And yeah, they kind of sucker punched them a couple of times. And they kept catching them. I think they had to check whenever Rams were in empty, they were bringing something because they kept making the Rams full slide. That's what I was going to ask you. Yeah.

It felt like every time, not even when they were in empty, it felt like every time they were in shotgun. Shotgun. They just were saying we're coming after it because they knew they were throwing the ball. So my question, that is an extension from that, if you were other defenses, what would prevent you from doing something similar? What would prevent you from saying every time we know you're in definitive past situation. We're just bringing it.

Do you think that that's going to be outside of too many teams? Comfort zones? Because it just seems like that would be a way to speed golf up. He's not going to be able to process quickly enough to hurt you in that way. He's not a guy between the years

that's going to really make you pay for blitzing. So it just feels like that might be a sound approach from other teams. That's why, even if you're not that worried about the Rams moving forward, I just think even if it's not a blueprint, it's definitely something other teams could steal from because it does seem

like an effective way to go after them. Like you said, it's what they're being comfortable with too. And like these Belichick defenses, you know, the Flores is running down there is that he, it's what they're comfortable with. They've done it. They've practiced it. They know the rules of it. So maybe it's something they can do.

And teams that are comfortable bringing these cover zeros or really five man pressure sometimes or just these drop stuff and the hops up where they run under the crossers. It's maybe if it's part of their wheelhouse. Yeah. I mean, really speed. it up. Maybe make golf every time they go empty just saying, hey, let's just bring it all out and make golf throw deep and beat

us once. Because really, they don't even have that much deep threat speed as well. They don't. Love Cooper Cup, love Robert Woods, but those are inmediate short area guys. Yeah. So they're not getting burned over the top like a Herbert did to the bucks a few weeks ago where they're you know, he's just launching these balls up. Goff affects the plays or makes these good

plays in their immediate zone. So yeah, this is something that other, I think other teams, if they are comfortable playing this style, might just throw it in there, maybe three, four, five times a game and just say, hey, half the time they're an empty, we're bringing it. Half the time, we're just going to play our soft stuff or whatever else that we'd like to do. I mean, on that second pick he threw, we got hit. We threw it to a row.

They brought seven. But they brought seven and played four behind it. They're like, fuck it. We're coming. I loved it. I mean, it was just a defined plan that I really enjoyed. I have a question for you. On the strip sack that they brought back for a touchdown, they had that same mugged up look,

and it was a jet motion to the right. and they did not block the end man on the line of scrimmage. I think it was Ogba got the hit that led to the Stripzac touchdown. Do they think the jet motion is going to keep the end man of the line of scrimmage? Is that why you slide to the other direction? Because you just feel like that motion's going to hold him and you don't have to worry about him coming off the edge. Yeah, I think it's one just to get into the route out there. But yes, you're correct.

It's two, it's an influence. You're influencing the rush because he has to play jet rules, which is. Well, he didn't pay attention to it at all, which I assume it was a coaching point. I assume it was a coaching point from the Dolphins. It's like, fuck it. We'll let them jet all they want out there. We'd rather get beat around the edge and make a huge play potentially coming back because they're using it more as window dressing as they are than they are trying to actually get yards out there.

Yeah, it speaks to your coaching so much. You could tell they were on top of everything today. And they got rewarded early on. Yeah, like some fluky things did happen. I love if it was supposed to be about the Rams from now we're gushing about the Dolphins' defense and stuff. But I think that's an important way to frame it because the fact that we're more impressed with the Rams than we are worried about, or more impressed with the dolphins than we are worried about the Rams, I think is an important takeaway from the game.

Correct. And, and, you know, this, it's also just, I do want to say with the Rams, too, and I touched on it defensively what the cool kind of stuff they're doing with some stacked defenses. I saw it first or when they play the Eagles and limiting RPO's and getting these kind of quarters coverages where the safeties can come downhill. And then offensively, too, they're doing the fun stuff always. And, like, that's why I think it's just, it's, the Rams are going to be fine. Because I think they've just shown enough this year where they're going to be able to

adapt and this just was a blemish. But yeah, I mean, we got credit to the dolphins. I mean, they were just, they've put together some good games this year. And they're coming along a lot quicker than maybe I think anyone really was going to realize that they're actually going to win these competitive games against competitive teams. I just love how they've built the defense just from a personnel standpoint because I think, I'd have to go back and watch play by play. But there were a lot of plays that I saw where Xavier Howard was covering cup in the slot. They went and spent huge on two corners. It feels like, all right, we're going to spend on these two guys.

They're going to be able to do whatever we ask them to do, and that gives us flexibility up front. It's not just similar to the New England plan. It's very similar to it, actually. And I think that's what they said. This is how we're doing it. We'll build it up. And then they had McCain as a robber cutting some crossers.

They think, I think they love their secondary and allows them to do a bunch of different stuff and be a little bit more unpredictable as they bring pressure as they don't. It's a solid plan. And today, I just think that they threw a no-hitter. I mean, every single time, it just seemed like they're. had the right call dialed up. Even there were a couple of plays like a Landon Roberts was just moving downhill with authority. It's like they're seeing something.

Like these are just, there are so many times where you're watching guys on their defense. It's like that is coached to him. He's doing that because he's seeing something. They're triggers that are bringing them to these sorts of plays. And I just think that speaks to coach it. It really does. And it's so jarring because how many times we see the Rams creating these free wide open run plays? Because the guy, defenders are just looking in every direction.

they can't keep up with the jets. And this week, all of a sudden it's the dolphins are just like, oh, it's this play. Everyone's communicating. Boom. The guy, like you say, guys coming downhill. It's, yeah, it really speaks of, they're doing, they're doing a good job. And I really want to continue to keep watching them.

They show, they have so much, you know, stuff to keep building the roster. And it shows that even if they're not maybe, you're never going to hit on every pick, is they're showing that they're investing in the premium position. So they're not wasting money on, you know, a run plugging, Mike linebacker or blocking. You know, they're doing it with DBs, like you said. They're paying corners, going after corners, paying corners, draft them in the first round. They're drafting a quarterback in the first round. And, you know, Tua was kind of had a huge training wheels on today, but they're investing in the O line as well.

And that, as Mina Kimes knows. But it's, you know, with this, the dolphins aligned, it's, you know, at least they're showing that they have a right path to success. And it's really cool watching what they're doing down there in Miami. Offensively, I mean, it was a rough day for the dolphins. but I think that the Rams defense is very good. I'm not surprised that two ahead a rough day. It also just seems like the Rams had to go away from the running game.

They rushed for over 100 yards in the first half on 5.7 yards per carry, but when you're down 28 to 7, it's hard to continue doing that. I feel like if that punt return doesn't happen, a couple different breaks happened, the game script looks a lot different. They can play a version of this game that puts them in a better spot because clearly when they were throwing the ball, the dolphins just had their number. All right, let's get to the next one here. Bengals somehow beat the Titans

31 to 20. I mean, just a game I did not expect. So just glancing over the box score and how this game went. Joe Burrow drops back 40 times in this game. The Titans got two hits. The only reaction I have to that is Harry Doyle. Like, we got one goddamn hit.

That's like we had two goddamn hits. So no one's listening anyway. That's the only thing I think. It's like two goddamn hits on four. 40 attempts. So, I mean, that's the number one thing. I guess that's, all right. Okay.

It is 11.28 p.m. central time right now. I will then mo you $50 right now if you can name me two Bengals starting offensive linemen. Oh, no. Oh, my God. The left tackle is, oh, my God, I'm blanking on his name right now because he's out Lannish on Twitter as well. I couldn't.

I couldn't keep the 50. You know what's remarkable? Well, he was, Burroughs been getting so beat up back there that I looked up, you know, David Carr's sack record. That's one of those unbreakable records because he's not even close to being on pace to it. I mean, he is, but there's no way it's going to happen. Yeah. But 76 sacks is just ridiculous. That's almost five a game.

And that actually blew my mind. I was like, that's just one of those. That's like the Maggio having 56 straight hits. You know, it's just that no one's touching that record because that, that offense of what the bagels are doing, it's truly just empty. okay Joe figure it out Joe go do something how many times did you see him break contain today and that speaks to also the Titans lack

of the pass rush it just it seems to me like Jeffrey Simmons leads their team with two sacks you know and you miss a couple games it's really not good no and he's a great player but it's like okay he shouldn't be leading your team in sacks Harold Landry's a nice fine player but I think he's a super role player he's not an ace clowny is going to do his thing he's never going to be a real box score guy

but he's you know he's more of a pressure disruptive guy, they spin him. But ideally he's kind of like a super number two. They don't have that bonafide pass rusher that can, you know, create something when they need to win. You know, Dean Peace last year, their defense coordinator, I think he did a good job of masking all that stuff, creating all the disruption with the third down blitz packages. And, you know, Vrable's trying to do it a little bit with Clowny as a spinner and all that. But it's just not really causing what they, I think they intend to. They're just not getting the numbers.

The pressures are just me. And actually it turns out like special teams is going to be an issue for them, too, other than the field goals and stuff. I didn't realize this until after when I was doing research for this pod is their 31st in DVOA and special teams. They gave up another huge return. They had a blocked extra point. So it just like if you haven't asked me yet, but it's like, you know, they have some little more worrisome things. If they want to get into these types of games, especially how they want to play on offense and pounding the rock or running naked and play actions and playing ahead. you know, the defense has to be a little bit better against the past

because if they want to play from ahead, they're going to play teams that might be passing on them. From left to right, here's the defense. Okay. Hakeemadeneji, okay. Who is a, he has a rookie six-round pick,

started at left tackle today for then injured Jonah Williams. Okay. At left guard, it's D. Calhoun. His first name is Shaq. That's not his real first name, so it's Shaq Calhoun. Shaqa Houn is a waiver claim from Miami. I'm just looking at the R-Lad step chart here.

It's all I got. Billy Price, who's a first-round pick, but certainly has not been playing like a first-round pick. No. Their right guard was Alex Redmond, was a college-free agent in 2016.

He's played for them a little bit. And the right tackle today was a guy named Fred Johnson, who was also just somebody they picked up on waivers. So the entire offensive line today was essentially backups, and they allowed two hits and beat a team that fancies itself a contender. There were only a couple plays in this game where the Titans had any sort of free rusher. On those plays, Burrough somehow managed to escape. He's really good in the pocket.

He is so good at just a little tiny, subtle movements, which we knew that coming in. That was one of its strengths at LSU's very, very good pocket awareness. You saw that show up today, managed to make a couple plays running around. I still think a lot of the Bengals passing game today was prayers that happened to be completed. I mean, it was not as if they were were just on rhythm, making, just dicing people up. It was a lot of like, yes, there were a lot of, God, I hope this is complete and it worked out. Yeah.

With that in the background and kind of with that in mind, I'm not terrified about the Titans. I think this is just one of those games where you have a couple unlucky breaks, you know, you miss a field goal. They had a pick down in the red zone. Just like a few things that start to pile up here. So, no, one other thing I wanted to bring up, it didn't show up all the time today because the Bengals don't have the best defensive line in the world. But Carl Lawson had a really nice sack that was just one-on-one, the San Brio,

with the backup left tackle, now that the Wands hurt, you saw it come up a couple times. So if you think about left tackle being hurt, total lack of pass rush moving forward here. On a scale of 1 to 10, how worried are you about the Titans? I'll say I'm actually six with them. Yeah. That's kind of how I feel. This game was a little worrisome. It kind of really showed their blemishes.

You know, I still love their offense. Their offense can score with anybody. Like they could really hang. And now that they've shown several times that they can, they, even when the game script's not going their way, when they beat Minnesota, they were down. You know, last week or a couple weeks ago when they came back against Pittsburgh. And then, you know, this week they were down 10. They were still able to kind of stay within their identity and still move the ball. Even when, you know, it's more of a chunk play.

What's not kill time situation in a third quarter. So that's reassuring to me as far as how their offense is. But man, you got to create some, you know, some pass rush somehow, if you have to scheme it up or somebody's got to be moved around or something. I just want to say real quick, do you know what I, kind of my private nickname for Joe Burrow is? No. I'm very excited about it, though.

It's Dak Pennington because he, because he move around like Dak Prescott, but his arm is like Chad Pennington. It really is amazing when you watch college and pro football back to back. when you think about what Joe Burrow looked like in college where he was just this otherworldly figure. And I still think he's going to be a good quarterback and I have a lot of faith in what he can be as an NFL player. But just how apparent his lack of arm is already in the NFL,

even if he's playing well. But it just shows up. It's like, he just doesn't really have that good of an arm. And when he was arguably the best college quarterback of all time for a single season, and that's the gap in the two games. It's just how obvious it is that he does not have like an upper top tier NFL arm already.

And especially even with, you know, he's playing Tanna Hill today. And Tano, I would say, would have good arm strength, you know, nothing. Solid. Yeah. Solid. And like the contrast between his arm strength. And then when you see Burrow throwing it, you're like, oh, wow. Yeah.

Like, it's, it's, it's Jamie Moyer out there. Greg Maddox throwing changeups out there, accurate change jumps. He's going to have to be somebody that wins with his brain. I mean, that's just how it's going to be. and I have faith in his ability to do that, but I still think that it's going to be a higher bar to clear than it is for a lot of guys with more physical tools than he has.

But we knew that coming in. I mean, that was always going to be the argument against him. Yeah. So I still have a lot of, I'm still excited about him, but the physical limitations show up often. They really do. I think guys,

but you know, what's great to see is you already got rapport going on with T. Higgins, you know, and, you know, made a couple of awesome plays today. The one where he rolled out to the right and just chucked it out of bounds and somehow caught it,

that was one of those plays was just like, what are you going to do about that? Yeah. Titans, it's like whatever. But yeah, he's a nice player. He really is. He really is. He's going to. He's going to retool that offensive line, obviously.

But the weapons I was excited about coming in and I'm still excited about them. I mean, I think that it's a nice group and we'll see what happens with them. It's again, this is this bengal season is all about just guys looking good, burrows functional, 2021, here we come. So nice to win today, but not the most important thing in the world. All right. Let's get to the Packers. I think this is a slightly different conversation than the other two.

Okay. The Packers lose 28 to 22 against the Vikings. 226 total yards for Dalvin Cook, 226 of the 324 for the Vikings. So if Bernie Becks can matter, they matter in Minnesota. That's what I'll say. He looks fantastic today. Oh, my favorite staff from this game easily. Kirk Cousins averaged 11.43 yards per attempt in this game.

That's ridiculous. His average air yards per attempt was 1.7.9. He threw no passes more than eight yards in the air, which makes sense when you consider the wind and everything else, but you should not be able to win a football game that way. So if you look at how devastating the Vikings were on the ground, how much worked out when cooked at his receiver, how many easy yards were available for the Vikings in this game. On a scale of 1 to 10, how worried are you about the Packers of defense moving forward? Okay, so my answer is just going to be like a five, which is kind of a cop out because Packers are kind of their defense is kind of what we thought they were.

They're there, it's, you know, Petten's kind of the Rex Ryan guy where it's chaotic stuff. And we know that they have these stupid, stupidest plays where they have these mental errors. They have two guys running into the same gap. So many times today. So many times. So many times. Fifty four and 51 in the same A gap over and over and over again. It's just like, Guys, this should not be that hard. It really should. Do not be in the same place as soon as the guy hits the line of scrimmage. It's not that hard. Some defenses have that happen once a game and then like coaches flip out. And they haven't happened like a dozen times.

Yeah, at least three times that I saw on big chunk games. Yes. And exactly. It's like the worst matchup for them is also they're playing a team that truly identifies their whole team around the run game for better or worse, the Vikings. So it's like the sound run game with zone and stuff like. that would just, you know, if you're not going to be gap sound, it's going to just gash you. So it's just terrible.

Like last week, I tweeted one was they had nine guys dropping it. The Packers had nine guys dropping into coverage accidentally. Well, that's a pet and special for sure. Yeah, but it's, it's supposed to be eight, but they dropped their nose and their detackle. And they just dropped them both back in the coverage. But it's, and then, you know, and the buck's just, yeah, Tom Brady just easily completed the ball to the outside, which was just hilarious. But it's, it's kind of what we thought they were.

We saw it against when they played San Fran, the FC championship game, when they got gashed on those runs. They want to run all this chaotic stuff and move guys around to do all that. If you want to game plan it every week where you're changing your calls up every week and changing what you're going after, you know, you're going to get gashed if you don't coach it well. Yeah, it's, I'm worried about them. I'm genuinely concerned about what their defense looks like because this doesn't seem like it's going to get fixed. And the problem is you can explain away the defense. You can kind of hand wave the defense last year because the offense didn't have that high of the ceiling.

It's like, oh, whatever. You know, they're not even a real contender anyway. So their defense is bad, who cares? Now I think the offense is a considerably higher ceiling. It was a tough day today. I think you saw the wind affect them. They couldn't throw the ball the way they wanted to. Aaron Jones out, Bakhtiari out.

I think the offense will be just fine here for the rest of the season. But because they have the chance to be so good, I have more of an eye on the defense and what the defense's ceiling is like is this actually a championship caliber team. And I'm genuinely concerned because you watch stuff like this and they're just getting gashed everywhere. They're terrible tackling team. Not even just at the linebacker level. The safety is just... The aiming points are awful.

Savage had a couple of plays today where I'm just like, what is going on? And Amos was the same way. It's just I really am worried about what they look like on that side of the ball. Because that air yard stat speaks through tackling. Because not only the screen, which was awesome, they cross-protected cook on it and got to see Cook go against... A couple great plays.

Bradbury and Cleveland getting downfield just going after guys was great. I've loved that play. Yeah. But they also had a checkdown, I think, to cook that he ran. It was like a third and seven. He gets the first because there's two mistackles where he split a guy. His acceleration on that play, they just tossed it to him in the flat and asked him to go. He has a giddy-up that we forget about.

Because if you look at his testing numbers and stuff, he's not that fast. But for whatever reason, play speed, that guy just goes zero to 60 so fast. You'll hear the term, you know, quicker than fast, but that's usually more agility and juking. But he's more like his acceleration is like an 11 out of 10. And then his top end speeds like a 6 out of 10. Yes. You know what I mean? But it doesn't matter.

But it doesn't matter because it gets there so quick that it's like, whoa, like no guys can get them. That play was a perfect example. You throw it to him in the flat. It's third and seven. Instantly get a first out. There just aren't that many guys you can do that with. And he really is somebody that creates more yards that are there. I have a question for you.

So they had a couple big plays today. They were in 22 person. They had two backs in the field. I don't know if it was 21 or 22. And they essentially were using ham to the play. play side and doing like a split zone where the tight end was coming back across. So the cut whack we built in. It's almost like they were using that lead action as a misdirection to go back the other way. Is that something that teams do every once in a while, just kind of

influence the linebackers that direction to run back the other way? Because they did that twice for big gains in this game. Especially teams that may be really key the fullback as a read. Some teams will key the running back, tight end, the offense alignment, it all depends. You know, there's defensive guys know better than I do, obviously. But there's teams they probably got a tell on them that, hey, they're really key the fullback. So let's really mess with them a couple times. And he wasn't going to block anybody. Yeah, exactly.

He was just, he was releasing almost outside in order to influence the linebackers that direction. And they ran back the other way with Irv Smith coming across the formation. And that's where you'll see split zone a lot, especially with a lot of stacked linebackers is that you're trying to influence their eyes, the linebackers eyes. And if a team had those linebackers have bad eyes, that's where you get the gashes. And it makes sense that, you know, that the Vikings did today and they had gashes. But I do want to compliment, though, I mean, the freaking touchdown from, I mean, which one?

From Rogers to Devante Adams, the last touchdown. That throw and catch was insane. It was like, I just have to mention it once because it was it, yeah, I, I blew my mind. I got to rewatch it and post it up because that was just a beautiful throw and catch. I mean, but good win by the Vikings. But I, I do think that the Patrick's office. I mean, it's that this is the offense. But it's like, all right, let's, this is what we wanted in August.

I mean, you turn them into Kirk Garapolo. That's the goal here. Yeah. I mean, I think that's exactly what you have to do. Just because I think they're more similar than if we're putting all those quarterbacks in like a similar kind of category, like the play action boot quarterback offenses that are just products of the system to a certain degree. So it's Tana Hill golf cousins, Groplo.

Those four, I think, are all in this. They were in the same tier in my, San Jose quarterback tiers, I think you absolutely can lump them together. I think that Cousins is more like Garapolo than he is like Gough because he's prone to those just bonehead decisions every once in a while. So I know golf through interceptions today, but they're more he was getting hit or just great coverage, not like I'm just going to yolo this and chuck it up like Garoppolo does.

And I think that try to limit Cousins' impact on the game, just running the ball, running the ball, and having that be what you do well, that's the ideal version of this team. And I think that early in the season, it was a little bit harder to pull that off, and it's going to be harder to pull off against teams that aren't the Packers. but I do think plugging at

plugging at Ezra Cleveland into that right guard spot he played he played really well today so it just a little bit more functionality on that right side so the Vikings don't have much hope this year but I still think this is the type of team we want to see them be moving forward especially on offense

this is exactly how when we heard our first podcast previewing the NFC North this is like why I picked the Vikings was because I thought they would play how they played today all right let's get to who won the week I'm not really sure how else we could start this off,

except for the still undefeated Pittsburgh Steelers. Until they lose, I think they win every single week. It's the Steelers segment. Was there anything about how they played today that was different for you? Anything that you learned about them that you didn't know before or you just feel like this was more of the same. They've been winning in the same style that they have been for most of the season. No, more of the same, but it was interesting to see the Ravens still get off in the run game

against the Steelers against the Steelers defense as well as they did. I mean, at one point, I mean, or not at one point, they did have three guys with over 50 rushing yards and they had it quickly. They had 265 on the day. They averaged 5.6 yards per carry. I mean, it was a nice day for the Ravens.

You know, it was good to see J.K. Dombs getting his touches today, like, you know, maybe taking over the main role. And he was, you know, my favorite back coming to the draft, even with Jonathan Taylor being a stud. You know, it was kind of picking between my children, but I really, really like JK Thomas's game. I mean, he clearly has some pop that those other guys just don't have. And he was really getting yards that weren't there today.

It was very impressive. But there were also a good amount of like holes today. They had room to work in the run game. Was there anything that the Steelers were doing schematically or just keys or kind of priorities they had that you thought made that possible for the Ravens to do that on the ground? So just like saying like where the Vikings are a bad matchup for especially for the Packers, it's kind of, I think, the same with the Ravens to Steelers. In the sense that Ravens love their misdirection stuff and the jet motions and the, you know, the guys, you know, they have the slice action, you know, with a split zone and all that kind of stuff.

You know, same thing. We're at the Steelers that we have already talked about. You've spilled digital ink over, you know, with Steelers having these smart players that like to read the game. They read and react. You know, they are really, you know, they're letting them guess a little bit and based off study and based off just feel from these really smart talented defensive players. So you got a really kind of well-illed run game That relies on misdirection So I think they just caught them a bunch of times

Where the guys got out of whack It looked like in the second half They kind of were getting on them You know kind of starting to figure things out a little bit But I feel like they were winning They went away from those replays And we're just going straight handoffs more often Which I don't really understand

Because it was working so well in the first half Because it seems like both of the outside linebackers Were really rushing the mesh point hard They were going straight after Lamar And like, all right, If you will let your running backs get five yards to carry, we're not going to let number eight beat us. And it was not working. I mean, they were getting gashed on the ground.

But for whatever reason, it felt like the Ravens went to just more straight handoffs in the second half than they did in the first half. Maybe there was a reason for that. It was hard for me to pick up on what it would have been. Yeah. And even early on, you know, it was startling to see Lamar had been sacked three times or that, like, that quickly in the game. Not just because it's like crazy to see him just getting wrapped up and tackled, but just also. like, well, what was the game script where why are we thrown, why are they throwing the ball so much already? You know, if that's not really their identity.

And it seemed like in the middle of the game, but, you know, it looked like they went back to their identity. So, yeah, I really want to rewatch, rewatch kind of how that flow and how the counters to the counters that maybe these teams were running. And the Steelers just made enough plays today. I mean, they, on a play to play basis, their defense wasn't very good, but they made huge plays. I mean, whether it's the strip sack down near the goal line on the first drive to torpedo a drive. The pick that 56, I don't know his name, one of the backup outside linebackers, the interception that he had was a really nice play. They had Ricard and Andrews kind of in a little like flood concept to the left side. He was supposed to be on Ricard and the flat, but he fell off of it because their spacing was a little off.

Really nice play. And there was just enough of those today from the Steelers. And I think the offense was, like you said, more of the same. Rathusperger, I think almost 38% of his passes today travel between 5 and 10 yards in the end. which I think led the league. And that's what they've done all season. Just a lot of like get the ball out of our hands, let the receivers do the work. So I came away impressed by both teams in this game.

I think that the Ravens losing Ronnie Stanley hurts. And I think that's going to show up for them when they have to be a drop back team at certain points over the rest of the season. I think that's going to be a problem. I think you saw it happen today. When they have to drop back, you're going to notice that he's not there. Really glad he got paid. It would be suck for him to have that injury and go into free agency. But getting that extension, good for him.

Huge. But it still sucks to see him get hurt. And the Ravens are going to miss him. I will say that there was one play. I tweeted it out before we started this. Orlando Brown came over. It was like a quarterback power run on third down. And he's just 360 pound Orlando Brown pulling.

Just launched Terrell Edmonds in the air. It's like, I could watch that all day. They scored. They scored. He like yelled into the camera. And it was terrified. He was just, ah, I know. I was like, oh, God.

It's, I think they'll probably be all right. But, I mean, losing a guy like that, again, especially when you have to be in more of a traditional dropback passing situation, it's not what you want. But a great game between two really good teams. I'm not sure there are a ton of takeaways from that. Yeah, that stat is so interesting and so talented too with Big Ben and, you know, the five to 10 yard area. I, like, looking up too was, you know, pro football reference had Big Ben as he has the

shortest pocket time at 2.1. seconds in the whole all the quarterbacks in the NFL is the ball's getting out like 2.1 seconds oh instantly yeah yeah it's out and it's just similar to what I don't want to say exactly apples to apples kind of how the breeze in the new Orleans saints philosophy is as far as ball getting out being accurate and stuff but just totally different styles of doing it breeze and saints are doing so many traditional drop back back concepts and the Steelers are doing like block slants you know they're like you know hitting the slant with three blockers in front of them pick routes and doing all this wheeling.

I think that you're right. I honestly, I think it's a better comparison than you do because when they get down into the red zone, he's making some pinpoint throws. The throw he threw to juju on the little seam inside the five, that's a perfect throw. And he made the same throw to Deontay, I think, two weeks ago. And that's a ball that can only be in one spot. Even a throw to Claypool in the corner is a pinpoint throw.

So I do think that they're scheming yak opportunities into the offense because they're receiving personnel dictates that. Yeah. But I also think that when the field shrinks along with stretching things horizontally like they've done with the jet stuff to Claypool, I think he is making those pinpoint throws. Yeah. So even if the, it's not a perfect comparison, but I definitely know how you got there.

Yeah. And it's, he truly is playing point card. He's just, he's like a four point, 12 assist point card, you know, he's Jason Kidd. What's point card would he be? Like, I already got it. I already got it. It's Jason Kidd at the 2008. summer Olympics when he would, yeah, I think he didn't like shoot a bet like a shot for like five

straight games because everyone else around him was so good. I'm trying to think of physically though. Like it's like if, oh, it's like if two, it's like if 1996 Sam Perkins was playing point card. That's what we're watching right now. All right. Let's move on. Let's get to another candidate here for who won the week.

I'm throwing out Philip Rivers, man. Fun game for the Colts. I was looking up some of the numbers. I was honestly surprised by them and it's hard for me to be surprised by Philip Rivers being good. Philip Rivers is six in the NFL in EPA per dropback through today. The guys in front of him are Aaron Rogers, Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson, Josh Allen. The guys you would expect.

I mean, he is sixth right now. He played a great game. Also just a really complete team win for the Colts. A lot of guys showing up. I just feel like they're not an exciting team. They're not a sexy team, not a lot of big names. But they show up to play. and when they're healthy, which they are getting on defense,

I think there's still a really impressive group. The Lions offense, or the Lions offense is pretty darn good when everyone's around. You saw that last week against Atlanta, and they just could not do anything in the first half today against the Colts. Yeah. And it speaks to the team this, or, you know, the whole team effort for them is in the first half, the Colts had 10 different players with the reception. They finished with the last thing. That's incredible.

I know. And I can only mention there's probably 12 eligible guys that could catch a pass, you know, on an active roster. So, you know, they're just spreading it out. And I actually looked up the EPA stat too because Rivers was 0.63 EPA play today. He was on fire. And like, and just speaking to guys are stepping up from him, he already has, we've already spilled some love on Mo Allie Cox.

And like, like, Naim, Nahim Hines. He had a couple plays over the years where I've noticed him on the routes, you know, and it's been like, ooh, that's, you know, that's saucy. And he had one a couple weeks ago. He didn't even get the target on the play where he ran like a little double move underneath they rarely see run well. And the first touchdown was incredible. Like I, I mean, the whole sequence is amazing. The motion back and forth motion because they're just taking advantage of, you know, the lion's man coverage. Yeah. The Lions man coverage with their slow

pluggers. Amazing. The, the river's lollipop throw, the rainbow throw like he's playing beer pong, like trying to drop it in there. That thing when the thing touched the ceiling. Everything about it. Yeah. It was, is worth noting. So Hines comes in that little face. orbit motion and they're playing man. Tracy Walker was on him because he was lined up out wide. Tracy Walker follows him and I believe, I'm sure that this is on purpose. They snap the ball before he crossed the center. So I'm sure that plays with how their rules are in man coverage. Walker has him. He goes back out from the orbit motion. Walker gets caught in the wash. She has no chance. And Rivers, I was talking to Seth Gleena from PFF about this, we just on

Twitter a couple weeks ago. Rivers is the best at those swing passes. He is so good at just putting out in space for guys and creates a little runway for them. He did it all the time with Echler. And that's exactly what happened on that throw. It was great. And then the second Nheim tied's touchdown, it's legit, was a sluggo with him split out wide to the right. And that's against Walker. Tracy Walker had a long day, man. It was a tough day for Tracy Walker. I first, it was so bad. I thought it was a linebacker. And I go, oh, of course. It's the Lions run plugging linebackers. I was like, oh, that's a safety. Safety and one of the better players on their defense. And that's, I remember I was talking to Matt Lafleur last year when I was doing a story about Aaron Jones.

And that is the route that I think when you're a running back and you can do that. That's when your coaching staff is like, oh, shit, I guess we got to start drawing stuff up for this guy. Because that's exactly what Flore was like, as soon as I saw that Aaron Jones could do that, it was time like, all right, you're a receiver in this offense now. And that's exactly what you saw with Heinz because it just, when you're doing that and you have him lined up wide to the right like that, you just expect it's going to be some short area around like a slender. And to be able to hurt you on that slant and go for a touchdown, not many running backs have that in their arsenal. And he clearly does. And Moe-Ly Cox thing is another great example. It's just they're drawing up three-by-one sets where he's the lone receiver on the left side, like scheming up first downs for him.

These guys aren't stars, but they clearly understand their skill sets and how to put them in positions to succeed. And Rivers is just the type of guy that I trust to do the right stuff. him. He's going to have one bonehead pick every couple weeks, but I think this year he has played at a much higher level than people seem to think. Yeah. And they're, you know, we keep saying it, but it's more some of their parts, you know, it's a bunch of solid good overall players that might have a couple traits are really good at. And again, it speaks to good coaching and good design and rivers just putting dimes out there. But it's also, they're just dowling up what they're good at. It's Moe Awe Cox boxing guys out. Moe Awee Cox is using his length on an over route where he can reach up and

grab stuff. They're using, you know, Pascal really well. He's, you know, he's going to step up. Probably, you know, he's a nice physical guy. It's a physical team. Even with the run game kind of a little out of whack, maybe because Rivers is in the gun, like in the fourth quarter when they were putting the game away in a four minute drill, they wouldn't understand or just pounded on them.

So it was like, oh, okay, so they got that in them. You think that's why their run game has struggled a little bit just because they've been in the gun so much more often with Rivers? Yeah, I haven't like fully studied it, studied it. But that's usually one of the cases. It's like, okay, we're meshing the styles of, okay, a lot of gun when we're now being 70, 80% in the gun as opposed to maybe 50, 50, as we were before. And also just with Rivers does all as pre-snap gyrations and whatnot and, you know, messing talking to the line and everything that can throw off some rhythm in the run game a little bit. So I just think it's just, you know, I think it's going to get better with time.

I think they're too good up front. And, you know, they got a nice grouping of backs now and their tight ends are awesome. It's fun team. Just a bunch of good solid players, like just all around across the board, offense and. defense. So coming into this game, it looked like they were gone on 76% of their plays. Last year, I think it was something around 66. So it's a change. I mean, they're above league average. The average is 64%. So, and I think you could say the same thing about those solid, but not famous players about their defense. I mean, Kenny Moore today had a couple really nice

plays. Yeah, there was one play. It was in the third quarter. He had outside leverage on Hawkinson. Hawkinson was the furthest outside receiver on the left side as an in-line tight end. More had outside leverage and they were running an in-breaking route to Hawkinson. It was a perfect call by the Lions because on that play, it should work based on the alignment and Moore just played it perfectly. You just drove on it, incomplete pass, and then he had that pick six today. Just did a really good job of reading Stafford's eyes and you just see it. It's not the same thing because you're not necessarily dialing it up for these guys, but just by virtue of how teams are playing their defense. Lions are sliding the protection to Buckner pretty much every single play. When he was

signed up as a three technique. They were sliding left to him. You saw Taekwon Lewis and DeNico Autry win as three techniques on the other side because they knew they had one-on-ones. Whatever it's just by virtue of how the offense is reacting to them or by virtue of how they're dialing up plays on their offense, they're just getting guys in positions to succeed. And I think that that's not surprising to me.

I think this is a good coaching staff. I think it's a good team. Them being successful doesn't shock me at all. But I think that today you saw some of the nuts and bolts of how they make it work. Yeah. And especially your scenes now, some more of those tip balls coming because, you know, their defense is just all around whatever past concepts are beating. When you run kind of like simple stuff as we've seen or quote unquote simple stuff when you just run maybe you have a fast ball and a change up and that's it. And you're, you know, playing too high every snap. You know what your weaknesses are. So then guys on defense know, okay, because the offense is going to run this concept this week. Okay. Because we know that's what beats what we're in. And then also if all you have a smart player. and everyone's well coached and, you know, have good game plans and and good opponent scouting. All of a sudden, everyone knows what's about to come. And you saw that happen a couple times where Stafford was hitting someone underneath because they're trying to run like a whip six concept where, you know, a rap concept, quote unquote is what it's what it's called.

And he's trying to hit underneath and there's two guys ready to make the tackle and the ball gets popped up in the air. And that's where the interceptions come from playing this, you know, bend, but not don't break defense. But if they just keep playing like this and it's like, and they're getting healthy with Leonard coming back, you know, it's good. such a difference. He makes such a difference. He really does. The energy he brings. His sack today was a really cool design. He was in a mug look lined up over the center and they actually ran a little twist where he came all the way back around the two linemen line up to the right. It's like, oh man, that's cool. And that shit works. It's fun to watch, man. He's so dynamic. I mean, yeah. It's so dynamic. The energy he brings is just like, it felt like a different defense today. And it was like, oh, yeah. It totally got their best player back. Well, actually, Buckner, maybe the best player now. But you have Buckner on the defensive front when you have Leonard on the second level. When you have. you have those safeties that they have played really well, Julian Blackman. When you have that up the middle, that's how you want to build. That's absolutely how Chris Ballard wanted to build this defense. It took a while because Blackman eventually became the player they wanted Malie Cooker to be.

And Buckner became the player they wanted Jonathan Hankins to be two years ago. But they finally got it the exact way they wanted to. And it's working out. I mean, it's working out very well. I still think they're not quite on the same level as maybe the Buck's defense is or even the Steelers defense is at their best. But I do think they're a really good playoff caliber team that could give some people some problems.

Yeah, and I agree with that. All right. One last candidate here. A guy we've talked about multiple times in this show, but I feel like we have to keep doing it. D.K. Metcalf might have won the week. 12 catches, 161 yards, two touchdowns. I don't, I don't know how many more times

we could watch him play where it looks like a dude playing in a JV game. He seriously looks like an NFL player and a pickup football game in some of these moments. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's the catch and run was like, okay, like three times. I was like, okay, he's going to run out bounds or he's going to get tackled or something's going to happen. He just pulled away from everybody first horizontally and then vertically up the side line. And it was like, how does a man that large just do that?

He really is. I mean, he's even bigger, but he really is like T.O. in some sense, you know, maybe not as polished yet. But, I mean, he just keeps improving every week. The yet is the scary part. The yet is the scary part. Because I'm watching this and it just feels like, I don't know what the comparison is. It's like watching something evolve in real time in a way that's like, I'm very scared about what's happening here. This is going to get to a point that everyone should be frightened.

The play he had, I think it was late in the second quarter, he was lined up on the left side, was one-on-one with Mosley. And he had that little skip Devante Adams-esque release outside. and he caught a long ball down the sideline. I'm like, it's like a happy learned out of putt situation where we're getting into a bad world if he's starting to do that kind of stuff. And it really is remarkable. I felt so bad for Emmanuel Mosley by the end of this game.

It's like, having to go against that guy for 60 minutes has to be miserable. So watching DK MacGath today led me to a question. And every week from now on, we're going to play a game that we all know very well. And that's would you rather? So let me set this up this way. Watching D.K. McHaff today, I think a lot of the response was, how did D.K.

Mekkaff fall this far in the draft? How did this happen? He was the last pick of the second round. So we've already kind of gone over that territory on this show about some of the limitations he had coming in. If you look at the stats, his production wasn't that great at oldness. So then that conversation about where he should have gone on the draft and how far he fell in the draft brought me back to the 2019 NFL draft.

So, I mean, you go through all these names, and it's easy to see D. Mekhaf going ahead of these guys. And by the way, imagining these teams with him is scary. The Chiefs passed on him twice at the end of the second round. So imagine D.K. Mekhaff instead of me, Cole Hardman, right now on that Chiefs offense. That's horrifying. The Packers passed on him twice in the first round with Roshan, Gary, and Darnal Savage.

I think the Packers would like D.K. McHaff right now? Yeah, I think so. It might be working out pretty well for them. So if you go through the first two rounds of the draft, it is very hard to find anyone that you would rather have than D. back half. In fact, I would say that I got all the way up to the second pick in the draft before I found someone that you might rather have than DK Maccalf. So here is my question for you. The rest of their careers, would you rather have D.K. McCaff or Nick Bosa?

Nick Bosa, all day. Or all careers. You think it's obvious. Obvious. I do. It's also just a philosophical thing I can get into, too. It's, you know, how I rank premium positions. It's QV O line, pass rushers, corners, past catchers. That's kind of just how I stack it. And then maybe you get a three down linebacker in there somewhere, especially in the first round. And because that's how you break ties when you're saying guys are maybe at the same tier of talent. Okay, then you go by positional, you know, value. And I also, I'm just in a belief of, you know, I just think receivers or guys you take later in the first round or, you know, I know we're just going Bosa and Metcalf right here.

But I'm saying like this, I don't think receivers should be taken in the lottery. Unless you get, you know, the no-brainer and stuff. I think if you are drafting that early, receiver is a cherry on top thing as opposed to what you're building around. I think there's value that you can get in the second round with receivers, just like the Seahawks did with Metcalf. It's just, it's just something I believe in. I know it's kind of like some people are saying, well, you need pass catchers. And I think so too.

Obviously, I'm not saying it's like running backs where, you know, receivers don't matter. But I just think in the sense that you can find. similarly tiered players in the late first early second mid second late second early third as we're seeing too with this year's draft these guys standing out already last year's draft with a j brown dk both second rounders as well and you know we're going to see this with further drafts come around as i think the receiver position so no but that's what i'm saying is i'm rod rather of nick that's not the question it's not where you can find guys it's not where you can find guys it's which of those guys would you rather have you still think for the you still think it's

Nick Bosa. Okay. Absolutely, because I'm saying pass rushers all day. Nick Bost had 80 pressures last year. It was the sixth highest mark in the league, and that's with fewer pass rushing snaps than a lot of guys ahead of him. You could already make the argument that he's among the top five pass rushing talents in the NFL when healthy. Matt Kaff's splash plays probably lead us in a direction to think he's a little bit better than he is on a play-by-play basis, which is fine. I hear your argument about valuing pass rushers over receivers. And you can say you can find receivers a little bit later. But it goes back to what you said about the yet thing with Metcalf. If you look at the physical skills that he has and what he could

maybe be a year from now, two years from now, I think that's where it becomes a conversation. I land on the same side that you do. I think I'd rather have Bosa just because even coming off an injury, he's a proven commodity, he's already one of the best players at his position in the Lee get a high value position. But I just think that the promise of what McHaff can be with that physical profile and already the improvements we've seen him make, I don't know, man. I think it's closer than you seem to think it is. I still don't.

I just, I'm just always going to go inside out. But I do love TK. Maccalf. Don't let this argument dissuade you. I mean, the stuff he's doing right now is just remarkable. It's more improvement than I ever thought that he'd hit after

five years and he's doing it in middle of his second season. It's scary. And the synergy he has with Russ is great too because Russ isn't throwing a lot of time. That's another thing. They're perfect together. They were made for each other. And that's one of those things. He looks the best he was going to look in this offense with Russ, all of that stuff.

Okay. So even if you're not taking him over Bosa, you wouldn't take anybody else in that draft over him, would you? All of all the guys on that list? I think the answer to me is no. Yeah. it's he's easy top five. I mean,

if we're putting it that way. Maybe Brian Burns. I love Brian Burns. I think that those types of rushers are more affected than they've ever been. Those like side to side change the direction guys just by virtue of the way the game is going. I think he's a really nice player. Outside of him, there's nobody on this list where it's like, oh yeah, I'd definitely rather have him than D.K.

McHaff. Yeah, especially with some of the other guys that are taking. I mean, would you like, do you think the Patriots want D.K. Metcalfe for Nikil Harry right now? Yes, that's a perfect. I should have thrown that one out at the beginning. But yeah, I think it's telling that Bosa is really the only guy on that list. You're like, absolutely, I would rather have Nick Bosa.

Yeah. All right. It's time for Vince to ask the question here. Every week, Vince Lombardi tease us up for what the hell is going on. And we have a perfect moment for that today because I literally asked myself, what the hell is going on out here? Javon Wims, so much happened. If you have not seen it, Jvonne Wims just straight sucker punches, C.J. Gardner Johnson in this Bears Saints game.

It was all over Twitter. It was the talk of the NFL Sunday for a little bit here. It's insane. When it happened, I was like, something had to have happened. And then they showed the play before. I guess CJ like poked Anthony Miller in the eye, which people like, he was standing up for his guy. It's a tie game. Nick falls through an interception on that next play on second and 20. during a play, let's get some revenge.

Let's like really go after a guy when you're blocking on the next play. Not punching a dude in the helmet when he has a helmet on for a 15-yard penalty after a play in a tie game. It just, everything about it made no sense. So first of all...

Did he pantomime yanking the chain off? He yanked the chain off of it and then he punched him. So I just, when is the last time, it's been a while since either of us were on a football field? I Punching guy with a

I think it was an open fist I think it was an open hand He like slapped him Which I So before we did the show today I have football helmets In my house just for decoration I put one on

And I punched myself Just to see if it would hurt It does hurt The open hand slap hurts Much less I will say I never remembered hurting my hand

On a helmet During a game Just because I think The adrenaline is so high That you wouldn't notice it But I remember during practice You'd hit your hand in a helmet, it hurt like shit, especially when it was cold out.

Oh my God, yeah. When it was cold out, you nick your finger on a helmet. It's like, God, that's miserable. So, but doing it during a game, I assume it didn't hurt him that much. Beyond just the effectiveness, I just don't understand the thought process of how he got from point A to point B. None of it makes sense to me. It was like a goon in hockey.

Like when the star gets hurt and they send the fourth line guy out there. It's the backup, backup guy who just goes straight at the guy and starts the fight. It was exactly like that. They subbed him on. He went for the fight and he got kicked out to his job. Everything about it was just amazing. I mean, and CJ was like confused. That was the best part of the whole thing is he looked around,

be like, is this really happening right now? And the other one was Darnow Mooney was watching it. You know how when we were younger and I assume this hasn't happened to you in a while. But what are your buddies would just be like drunk and getting into it with somebody? And you'd be sitting there and be like, oh, God damn it. Are we going to have to do this? Like really, I'm going to have to go pull him away from this situation. You could see those gears turning in Darnow Mooney's head.

He's watching it happening. He's like, God damn it. I cannot believe I have to get involved in this right now. It was everything about it was amazing, except for the fact that Nick Foles through a backbreaking pick and the very next play because it was second and 20. I really don't want to talk about the Bears for more than 15 seconds. The offense is a disaster. They could not function today for a long.

large portions of that game because of how little they could protect. It is an offensive line that can't block anybody with a quarterback that cannot make anybody miss. It is so jarring to watch games where even like Joe Burrow today, when you have free rushers and they're just making guys miss in the pocket, Nick Foles has negative pocket mobility. It almost runs into guys rather than avoiding them. It's a perfect storm of nonsense for an unwatchable offense is what's happening with the Bears right now. All right. One more here for what the hell just happened. The Chargers, I don't know what else there is to say. They have made losing an art form in a way that you just cannot

even fathom at this point. Joe Reedy, who is an AP writer who lives in L.A., tweeted this out, the Chargers are the first team in NFL history to blow four leads of 16 or more points in four straight games. That's ridiculous. That sounds fake. It does sound fake. That doesn't even sound like it's a possibility. Do you even see the other one? The USPN had one too. They say teams up teams that have been up 17 or more this season.

The NFL, the rest of the NFL, other than Chargers is 52 and 4. The Chargers are 0 and 3. Rest NFL is 52 and 4. That's including the Falcons games. And the Chargers are 0 and 3. It's like some Indian burial ground that they built the stadium on or something. Do you think that there is anything to this? Do you think that whether it's ownership,

or I mean, that's the only thing that I think matters because overall I do think that teams are going to come back to the mean in close games eventually. This is not some deep-seated problem with the charges as far as I see it. But do you think losing all of these close games on an optics level, whether it's ownership, whether it's players,

do you think that starts to wear on guys? Do you think it starts to eventually become this deep-seated thing, like we're going to lose. Absolutely. I mean, look at the Falcons demeanor after the Super Bowl. I mean, just for years and years, they have that stink on them, especially if you don't have a lot of turnover and it's the same main guys. So, you know, if it's the same coach that's there, but now it's been multiple coaches

that are having these games. And like you said with the ownership thing, that that's even bringing up like some of the stuff with the chargers over the years, like how many medical, how much medical stuff that all their players are have, they have injuries, just dozens of guys every year. And that does, that is ownership affecting it a little bit or at least their hiring processes of what they're doing with their training staff and medical staff. I think they're trying to get better with it. But that kind of speaks to that as well. And that's kind of like they're always playing like, you know, with half their hand going into these games.

It kind of seems like. But it's just like the four minute drill. It was just like this is kind of like what's gone with the Chargers this season. Herbert looks great. I mean, he had another fun game. They're in a four minute drill and it's going great, going well. They're running the ball. They're pounding it.

And then they get a brutal chop block penalty. 15-yard poundly and a four-minute drill. That's why it's hard to pin this on anything because it's stuff like that. It's if that ball gets completed to Mike Williams in the back corner of the end zone instead of intercepted, it's an inch away from being another beautiful touchdown from Justin Herbert. It happened while we were on the phone live. And I was like, oh, what a beautiful throw and catch for a touchdown. It's, it's that close.

The margins are so small. Yep. And that's why it's just hard for me to believe that this team has some pathology that they can't get over. Yeah. The analytical part of my brain won't let me believe it. But eventually, it's like, if you believe it, it's not a lie. Like, if you believe, like, it's going back to Seinfeld, if you believe it, it might be real. Like, if it's starting to manifest with them in real ways, then it becomes real.

Imagine if it was regression in me and then how hard they're going to regress the other way, where it just everything goes there. Like, they're going to be growing extra and stuff. I do it every single year where I'm just like, oh, man, the charges have so much doubt. I can already envision myself doing it next preseason. It's like, oh, Herbert is so fun. Yeah. And they're unlucky. You have a couple of injuries go their way.

They're getting Derwin James back. I can already see myself doing it. And I just want to stop myself before it happens. You're playing the seed now. So like next August, you just, you're like, nope, nope, when you started previewing the West. I'm absolutely going to do it again. I know myself.

And I know, I mean, it's, there's no reason to pretend like I'm not going to do it. I just feel bad for them at this point. I think it's necessary to have perspective. Herbert is really fun. I think he's going to be great. There's really nothing bad you can say about him at this point. I mean, he's been so much better than anyone could have anticipated. And again, the right side of their offensive line has been banged up.

You're going to get those guys back next year. You're going to have a lot of your defensive pieces back. Keenan Allen's just got to sign a contract extension. They have the pieces in place to be a really interesting team next year, no matter what happens in 2020. At this point, lose as many games as you want, get a top seven pick, grab another star and let's go. But my only concern with that is, is the losing just seeps in if you have another season from hell where everything falls apart. And it almost feels like we're at that place again with them, which is so hard to conceive. I think if it was with River still there, it would be really like that.

But with Herbert, it's kind of more a fresh start. It's kind of like, no, no, no, we got our guy. You know, we got our guy. It's a great point. I think that maybe is helping them a lot. Everything else at this point is just a wash because you got your guy and he looks even better than you thought he would. That's a great point. It's hard for the guys in the locker room, I'm sure, to talk themselves into that.

But organizationally, I think that makes total sense. I don't think so, too. All right, let's get to this week's secret sauce. Every week we like to talk about one overlooked aspect of a game that helps one or two teams win. And this week, something that's been coming up a decent amount as I've been rewatching some of these games, especially against these teams that are heavy play action boot teams, whether it's the Rams, the Titans, you know that group, the Shanahan kind of tree group.

A lot of teams are coming on slot blitzes on early downs. So downs where teams usually like to run that boot action. The Rams had it happen to them on their first drive today against the dolphins. The Bengals did it multiple times against the Titans. Do you think that's becoming more prevalent and what kind of advantages does it give the defense against those teams that like to run those heavy boot play actions on first time. Well, like, I kind of just wrote this thought down right now is with these outside zone teams, really it's not so much outside zone, but just zone heavy teams.

I know like Jim Schwartz, you know, came up with his wide nine defense, you know, to stop the boot. It was the nine technique run straight at the quarterback where you're not getting a boot off. We're not willing you kill us with naked against, you know, Houston at the time and what Minnesota was doing when Schwartz was in Detroit. So kind of the same philosophy there. as a sense that they're getting that wide edge presence, but they're doing it with out of sub packages.

You know, they're doing it with the slot guy. And we talked about run pressures the other week. And really in the run game, it kind of has a double benefit. So when they're facing these zones, the zone plays, it changes the angles with the slanting of the lines

and it can really help, you know, cause disruption against the run game. And if you time these right, especially with, you know, so if it's a play action, the running back might have bad eyes. So as opposed to aborting the fake, because that might be his assignment.

on that play. Instead of boarding a fake, you might get a young running back there that's like, okay, whatever, I do this fake 100 times. The will is not coming. But then his assignment actually is coming and he gets their way and it causes a little panic there. That's one of the benefits of bringing stuff from the outside. And also with nakeds, especially with quarterbacks that aren't, same thing, maybe have that awareness, especially pre-snap and seeing that this pressure is coming, they might not get their head around. So as opposed to these quote unquote safe plays that these quarterbacks are getting with these nakeds, now it's turning into a hit. And and a pressure and they have to dig the ball.

So it's just like it's a true incomplete pass with no threat. Because especially if they're going to the left. When I was at Wisconsin, Paul Chris wouldn't have any right-hand quarterbacks. If you're under center, we wouldn't sprint out left or a boot to the left if you're right-handed. Just because he just always thought that it was kind of a hard turnaround. He's changed a little bit since then.

And when we had Russell there, he was like, whatever. We can do whatever with Russell. So let's do it. So but that was his, that was always his thing was that you won't get your head around. if they brought edge pressure, if they bought slot pressure. And that's what it will happen.

If that quarterback doesn't have that awareness that, hey, the safety's capping, the nickel over there. And all of a sudden he just doesn't get his head around. He just gets smoked or he just lobs one up and just spins in the air and causes interception or maybe in a fumble if you hit him at the right time. You know, Rod Marinelli would do these really well, too, in the sense that he was on a big pressure guy. And then he would just sprinkle in like about three or four just true nickel pressure

just off the slot and just have the DN spike in. And it would catch a team. It would catch a team once a week. Like it was unbelievable. You're prepped for it. It's the only blitz they bring. And still he'll get it. You'll get your smart right tackle and the runnerback just because you're just not,

you're low to sleep. You're low to sleep. And all of a sudden just this safer, simpler pressure can cause all this disruption against what's supposed to be safe plays for the offenses. So I think it's just more. That's what's so interesting is that you're, you are doing something safe to take away something safe. So it's almost as if you're,

taking away this crutch that an offense has, and it's a way to dictate the game, where those advantageous first and ten, everything is on the table plays. Offenses have an advantage. That's where they want to be. And if you play that way, if you bring that slot pressure, it's almost a way of negating that slight advantage the offense has because they have everything on the table. So why wouldn't you do that? What's the downside of doing that when you know a team likes to have a lot of boots on first down?

Or, you know, a guy might just get it off or you might hit that, you know, late leak play where the guys slam blocking and the quarterback's smart enough to get the ball off and find the throw. And play action wise, it's gash or be gash because if especially play action with those deep developing routes, long developing routes, and you're bringing five or even a, you know, simulated pressure that ends up with four, they're still moving pieces where these guys have to find the overrouts and stuff. You can get gashed if the quarterback in the protection are good. You know, uh, Rams have worked. If the running back clips him when he's come when he's coming off the edge. Just a know, a lot of times when the run, uh,

that slot guy, the nickel, because this isn't their bread and butter coming, you know, blitzing all the time. Unless you might kill them. Yes. Yeah. But they also didn't see a guy waiting for them to block them. They just shut it down. They're just like, oh, whatever.

And then the plays over, plays over for them. They just play, you know, paddy cake on the side. But, you know, that's where some of these, like, you know, Jamal Adams of the world, you know, he's not slot, but bringing those pressures because he wants, wants to bring the heat. So he'll actually win on that stuff. But it's, it's gash or be gash. That's just what it is.

It's, if you're playing a play action team and they do. you block it up, you might be in for a long play where Alson, that's just a free runner. And the guy's catching an overrout and running for 30 yards because there's no, you know, there's only five defenders back there. At this point, against the team like the Titans and the Rams, I'm doing it. I think that the benefits far outweigh the downside. I just think it's one of those ways to get them out of their comfort zone and for you to dictate the action.

And that's exactly what we saw from the, from the dolphins today. And you saw it from the Bengals a decent amount. I just, these teams that really get into a group when they're ahead of the chains, I think it's a great way to just throw them a little bit of a curveball and see if you can ruin a drive. If you get an incompletion there, if you get a sack there, second in 12 or second in 10, it's a drive ruiner because those teams need to be ahead of the chains.

So I just feel like the upside far outweighs whatever bad things could happen on the other side. Lean into the punch, take it to them. And that's how many times we all go on Monday or Tuesday and we're like, oh, we get Shannon McVeigh setting up these plays on the first ride? Exactly. like, well, guess what? What if they only ran four plays on the first drive? You can't really set up shit.

Yeah, exactly. You don't have enough ball plays to do it. And that's what I loved about going back to the Dolphins game plan today. That's what I loved about it. Flores essentially sat there and said, we're not going to let them take it to us. And it worked. They did the exact opposite. They took it to McVeigh.

And it's one of the best defensive coaching jobs I've seen in a while. Probably my favorite one I've watched all year. And I haven't gone back and watched it yet. It is going to be a fun one to watch. That whole game is. Fun week. Week 8 was great. All right, buddy, that's all we got.

We'll be back on Wednesday with our typical Wednesday show. Got some stuff happening before that. So people may be a little bit distracted, but we'll see how that goes. As always, really appreciate you guys listening. Please rate and review the podcast on your platform of choice. If you don't mind, I would sincerely appreciate it. Please go subscribe to the athletic if you have not. We still have some really good promos going.

We'll be back on Wednesday. then. Thank you so much to listen to The Athletic Football Show. We'll talk to you later. This was The Athletic Football Show.