The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Predicting the NFL's top-10 defenses in 2024

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Predicting the league's best offenses is child's play. The top defenses, though? That's a completely different ballgame. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen attempt to do just that, laying out their predictions for the league's top-10 defenses on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys also dive into the latest on Brandon Aiyuk.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. We did top 10 offenses last week with my buddy Derek Klaas and our new co-hosts here. We're doing top 10 defenses this week. Not an easy list to make. Defenses are volatile from season to season. Even the elite defenses in the league have a bunch of question marks.

We're going to dig into all of that. We both had like one and a half kind of spicy picks and what we ultimately landed on. So excited for you guys to hear that. We also chatted about the latest with the Brandon Ayukes saga. It's not something. that we've been able to hit on any of the previous shows that we had done. So we started things off with that before digging into our top 10 defenses. So let's get to it.

Joining me now, that is my co-host here at the athletic. It's Derek Klauson. Derek, how are you doing, man? I'm doing great. We are a day away from getting some actual football. I mean, as insofar as you can call preseason actual football. So it feels good. I mean, we're finally kind of closing in on it. Yeah, the Steelers have a game in a couple days.

I'm in a music closet on the campus of St. Vincent College where the Steelers do their training camp. So if you guys are watching on YouTube right now, it's why I have a guitar behind me. I don't know how to play that. Neither do I know how to play the keyboard that's sitting next to me. But this is the stretch of the calendar that we're in. Any quiet room you can find in a soundproof one, nonetheless, you're going to take it. I'm excited for all that to get started. We've got some things to hit today before we get to our main topic, which is we're doing top 10 defenses today.

We'll talk about the structure of our lists and some of the consumers. as we built them here in a second, but we have not gotten a chance to really update listeners and talk about the Brandon Ayuk situation. The real news kind of started trickling out after we had recorded our last show. And obviously, it's been a complete shit show over the last 72 hours in terms of who's in, who's out, how far down the road are these teams? So let's just take a step back and consider the situation right before we started recording. It's about 3 p.m. Eastern and probably 10 minutes before we turned the mics on. Diana reported that teams are still in communication, multiple teams, with the Niners about Brandon Ayyuk, and that includes the Pittsburgh Steelers. I just want your general thoughts on what this process has looked like over the last couple days. It seems to me that more the hang-up is from Brandon's side than it is from the 49ers. I think that is correct after talking to some people. It seems like the 49ers are like, well, we've got three, four different bidders. It seems, you know, there were a couple different reports that they kind of already had deals lined up, like not even, you know, we're still

in talks, but like they're ready to do this. And it seems like, you know, Ayuk is a little bit caught up on where he wants to be. And I think that kind of makes sense when you look at a lot of these other teams that are trying to get him. There's not that many like true contenders, especially on the level of the 49ers. But that's just going to be the case when you are getting traded away from a team as good as this and you are a player as good as you are. Teams who are kind of in the mid-tier that need a true number one are going to be the ones to go get you. It's not going to go be some other superstar team that is trading view. Why would the 49ers even allow that? So I just think it's kind of a weird situation. And at this point, I think it's just a waiting

game for wherever IU thinks. Maybe it's quarterback situation. Maybe it's, you know, the three-year long-term view, whatever it is. Maybe it's money. Whatever it is, I think we're just kind of waiting on his decision to come in. I think that's right. I think that the ball is in his court in more ways than one right now. After being in Cleveland yesterday, I'll say this. I'd be surprised if he ended up in Cleveland, just based on where things stood at that point yesterday. This idea that his preference is the Steelers is interesting to me. Why? Because we're talking about this.

They're not further along than the Browns are. You're going to an offense that's probably going to have less volume, certainly than Cleveland, maybe even than New England, probably than the Niners, or at least right in that same ballpark, and the quarterback situation in Pittsburgh is completely unsettles. you have no idea who the quarterback even is. So I just am not sure why. I mean, obviously the stability of the organization is worth seeking out. Maybe just a big Tomlin fan.

Maybe I'm overstating this. Brennan Ayuk is from California. I went to high school in Reno. I don't know if he necessarily has a lot of nuanced thoughts on the different quality of life in Pittsburgh versus Cleveland. Maybe he does. But I have no idea what is the driving force behind this at this point because there aren't that many selling points outside of just organization.

prestige and consistency for the Steelers compared to something like the Browns. Obviously, the Patriots is a different conversation, but I'd be really curious to get an actual account of why he's thinking this way right now. I mean, other than money, it just has to be organizational, you know, structure, right? Because you look at, you look at Cleveland, you look at Pittsburgh. Neither of them, I mean, Cleveland's quarterback situation is settled, but it's not, it's probably not good. And then Pittsburgh is completely unsettled. And then both of these teams already have another receiver that is very clearly going to get a bunch of targets as well, which is not necessarily a problem for Iuk. He's kind of used to that in the 49ers offense. Well, that's the

case if Amari Cooper wouldn't go back to San Francisco as part of this trade. That's true. Maybe that's part of the calculation. Maybe the Niners are like, maybe that actually leads to hang up is the nineers are trying to get, you know, who can we actually get back in this to sort out? It's just kind of a bizarre situation. At this point, it definitely feels more when than if. I think, we've kind of crossed the bridge, though. And that's so strange to me, because I just don't understand why the 49ers at this moment feel compelled to do this. You have mechanisms to keep him on the roster next year.

If you want to tag him and then trade him next off season, you can do that. Is he really going to be so upset with where things currently stand that he's not going to try to play well in what is, again, a contract year for him coming up here? I just don't understand why they wouldn't be willing to navigate that. when they're on the doorstep of a Super Bowl. If you were going to do this and you thought that this eventuality was possible that he would hold in, that it would become sort of an issue, why wouldn't you try to do this earlier in the spring

when you could have gotten more for him and done something to potentially replace him? I know that Ricky Piersol is a first round pick, but the skill sets are completely different, what he's going to be within your offense are completely different. So the idea that they would diminish the best offense in the league potentially a month before the season gets started when you look at what their expectations and hopes are for this season, you would have to blow me away.

It would have to be a crazy offer. And I just don't know if that sort of offer is coming, considering this team has to give him a massive contract on the other end of this. Like, it would have to be a one and more plus a starter for me immediately, for me to even consider this based on where the 49ers sit. The timing is what's most confusing. Because I think in a vacuum trading brand in Iuke is not that crazy. I mean, he, to me, in terms of their past catchers,

is their best player and their most vital guy. But the reality is they just have 18 guys that they need to pay and there was just no way that they were going to pay them all. So yeah, they wanted to make this deal at the opening of free agency right before the draft, draft night. You know, we've seen that type of deal happen. That should have been when this was going to happen. I don't understand how they thought that this possibility was on the table and let it stretch all the way out until the preseason. Like it's just the timing of it is, I think, the most confusing part. If they trade Brandon, I, cool, it makes a lot of sense.

This just should have happened in the spring. Yeah, and you could make an argument that Brennan Ayuk is more valuable to another team than he is to the Niners. Just because of the volume that he could potentially command and also the role within the offense, I think he does fill a vital role that allows the Niners potentially reach their ceiling. There are elements of what he gave them last year that were different than they had been able to explore in previous versions of the offense that I do think took them to a different level. But the way that they use Debo, the way they use all the other pass catchers, like a true outside the numbers dominant X receivers going to inherit.

be less valuable to this offense than others, but it doesn't mean it's not valuable. It is an important piece of who they are. You know, kind of on that point, I want to ask you real quick, so we both have them at one, obviously, the 49ers first overall in our offense show. If they lose Brandon Ayuk and don't, let's say, get Amari Cooper back, maybe it's just picks. How far do you think that that puts them? Obviously, they're still going to be pretty good, but like how far, how much further

would you have dropped them? I'd still probably have them in the top five. but maybe in like the back half of the top five. And I have since become a little bit embarrassed about how I handled the chiefs in that show and the fact that I just didn't have a better reason for putting them higher than I just think they're coasting a little bit. After some people reached out to me after I said that

and you're just like, yeah, that's not how this is going to go. So I do think that you could potentially pump them up a little bit higher. If you want to put them at one, that's fine. The Rams have 17 injured guys. So obviously that situation is a little bit more volatile than it was. but I absolutely think it dings them for the reason that I said. I do think he helps them explore a ceiling that they would not have in a pre-IUK is a dominant one pre-Brock Purdy sort of world.

So the complexion of the offense just changes in a way that I do think you have to acknowledge. Yeah, I think that's... Where would you have them? Probably it would, I would like have to waffle on where I was with the lines, which I think I had the lines at fourth or fifth. That is probably the range that I would be thinking because I think if you take out Right. If you take out Iyuk, it probably puts their ceiling to me at about what the lions is. And then the lions like the 49ers also have a really, really high floor just in terms of the way they're built, the coaching, a handful of the other skill players. So I would probably drop them. Yeah, two, three shots. Like you said, still back end of the top five still would be a hyper efficient unit. But, you know, like we've said in other shows, you kind of need this Brandon Ayuk type, the Julio Jones type, your true number one guy to make the Shanahan offense go supernova mode. so they would probably just be normal offense really good instead of absolute nuclear mode.

If he landed in Pittsburgh, how would it change the way that you think about the Steelers? Until I see the quarterback situation unfold, I think it's really hard. I will say, I think he gives them a skill set that they desperately need, just because when you lose a guy like Deontay Johnson, he was kind of there, you can just go beat one-on-one-man coverage. And Pickens has this a little bit as a vertical guy, but otherwise he's just not that caliber of route runner. I, you just more of like, I actually think Picking, I think that there's like a hidden ceiling

for Pickens. Really? That we have not yet explored. Yes. I really do. And I think the Steelers believe that as well. Like, like as a route runner or just, yeah, maybe he, okay, okay. He's more of a guy.

I still want to see it, but. More than just slants and goes. That's what I would say. I think that there is a more nuanced, fully realized version of George Pickens. down the road here in the way that the Steelers are thinking about this. But if you had that and

Ayyuk, I mean, what you could do with that, especially if you were going to move Pickens around a little bit, the offense starts to get really interesting. Because I do think that the line is a chance to be dominant. Like, Fatano, I think, is going to be their day one right tackle. He's looked really good. They've dropped him in against TJ Watt, and it's been

like, yeah, I'm good. It took me a day to figure it out. He looks really good. So that's exciting. And then just like some of the stuff that they can do in the ground. Obviously, the quarterback is a massive question. And we'll talk more about that as we get a little bit closer to the season. I think Russ missing all this practice is a huge deal. I think that there is a chance that Justin Fields takes a majority of snaps for the Steelers this year. I really do. And he's played well. It's not like he's just been the only guy out there and it's going to be his job by default. He has

taken advantage of the fact that Russ has not been at practice. So if they can get something out of fields, something better than we've seen, and you have a supporting cast around him with a capable offensive coordinator and you pair with a defense that we're about to do top 10 defenses, they're on mine. I feel pretty decent about that. I don't know, man. This team like suddenly gets a little bit interesting, like at least competitive in a really good division, even if you consider the quarterback questions. Yeah, I do think too, they had trouble last year, I think, generating explosives. Brandon Ayuk certainly goes a long way in helping you bridge the gap on explosives. I think about you're going to get

10 Fields explosive runs over the course of the season. Like your run game has a chance to create more explosive plays than it did last year just based on some of the new bodies that you've put in there. I don't know. They start getting interesting to me. Even with my, I'm probably too close to it with fields. I've seen too much

to have an unmuddled vision of what this could be. But I would be very excited to see Brad and I, you can land with the Steelers, even if it meant diminishing what the Niners are right now. All right. You want to get into this? We want to do some top 10 defenses here? Let's do it. Let's talk about the method behind the madness for creating the list.

I had a hard time with this. And here's why. Even the defenses that you should theoretically feel good about, the ones that have been borderline elite or write-in-pin top-10 defenses over the last couple years, there's a question about like every single one of them. The Cowboys have a new coordinator and less talent. The Niners have a new coordinator. The Steelers, I guess.

there's not as many questions about them, but there are personnel questions about for them. There are guys in starting roles there where it's like, ah, you feel good about that? The Patriots lost the best defensive coach of all time. The Chiefs lost a all-pro level corner, and there's a question about how they replace him. The Jets have chipped away at their depth in a way that I think is notable and we'll get to, and the Browns got shish-gabobbed at the end of last year against really good offenses that they played. So there was always a question. And I kind of struggled with who to put up there at the top because I didn't necessarily feel, and the Ravens also, I don't think I mentioned this, the Ravens lost their defensive coordinator in multiple pieces.

There's a question about everybody. So the top five was harder to put together than I thought it was going to be, and I think that trickled down to the rest of my list. The biggest difference to me between the offenses and the defenses was offenses. I went into almost all of them thinking to myself, man, what is the best thing that can happen here? What is the coolest thing that they can do? What's their next step forward? When I was looking at the defenses, everything in my brain went, how can this go wrong? And just like trying to back track from there.

Yeah, it's just the nature of each side of the ball. Yeah, and it just made for such a different exercise. And then to your point, even a lot of the best defenses, like there were a handful. I still was very confident I was going to put in here. It was just a matter of like ordering. But other than really like three or four maybe, you were just looking at a lot of holes on a lot of these teams. And I think especially outside of the top four or five, you probably could have gone a lot of different directions. And I think we did.

I sort of did. I have more chalk than I wanted to when I started this list. Because even if you have questions about some of these teams and we'll get to them near the bottom half of the top 10, it's like am I really going to leave this team off? It was just a way to hedge. It was just a way to protect myself, even if I didn't know. necessarily feel great about it. So with that in mind, let's talk about some of the teams you didn't have on there for one reason or another. Let's do the same thing we did with offenses. Who is the team you most wanted to put in the top 10 that you just couldn't quite get there with,

even if it's a couple of them? We just kind of talked about them, the Steelers. I still think they're going to be a good unit. I have no doubt that they'll still be a top half of the league unit. And they were last year. They were like eighth in, I think EPA per play, eighth in success rate. They were a solid unit. And I still think the front is going to be really good. I really like Keanu Benton, obviously T.J. Watt and Alex Highsmith are really good. They went out and signed Patrick Queen.

I like the front. I look at the secondary. They have two awesome players, right? They have Mink of Fitzpatrick. And I think Joey Porter Jr. is one good, but also just my kind of corner. I mean, just punch you in the mouth. He's like Traverius Ward, Carlton Davis, like we just talked about. He's just that style of corner.

and I love that. They are playing an NPC at Nickel, and that is a huge concern to me. I think their other safety set is a little bit concerning. And I really don't love a lot of their depth up front. Like, their starters are really good, but the depth is concerning to me. Like, if the Marvin Laowl has to play snaps again, I think that's a big, big problem. And then even some of their guys on the edge, you know, Nick Herbig is nice, but he's kind of small. So this to me was just, I think if you pull out one of the jenks,

Bunga blocks, things could get a little bit tricky. But I still think they'll be good. I totally get that. And I do think that if you lose one of the stars, especially if Watt missed a significant time, the entire makeup of the defense changes. I still had them at 6th. They were a top 10 defense last year, missing Minka for a huge chunk of the season. The linebackers were, it was an untenable situation by the end of the year.

Even if you have concerns or reservations about Patrick Queen, he is an upgrade over what they were trotting out at those spots last year. Cam Hayward was a little bit banged up last year. And so I do think that it wasn't a perfect season for them in a lot of ways. And let's say, all right, we have big questions about the second corner spot. Patrick Peterson played like a majority of snaps for this team last year at that spot. And maybe this is giving them too much of the benefit of the doubt. But part of me just thinks that they figured it out with huge questions in the secondary before.

So now you have Dante Jackson in there now. Cam Sutton's going to be suspended for half the season. Maybe he can play nickel in the back half of the year. I just, I trust them to figure it out in that area specifically. And even though they played a lot of dime last year, there's like a quarter of their snaps is the second highest rate in the league. And I don't know if they have the bodies for that. Like there are some structural things, but I just think the front has a chance to dominate games and they can do enough on the back end. And if that front stays healthy and Benton takes the step forward that we think he's going to, you combine that with Minka and enough in the back.

it's just hard for me to put that many teams over them to keep them off of a list like this. I don't think that's crazy. I think I started when I did my first version of the list. I think I put them at seventh. And then they were just for whatever reason, the team I kind of talked myself out of. Like I went in basically thinking all of the things that you just thought. And then they were the one team that I just, something felt a little off. And I just kind of started talking myself out of it.

And maybe I'll be truthful. Maybe that's just me overthinking it. And maybe that's me not giving enough credit to how good this front probably will be. But again, the back end gave me a little bit of a little bit of spookiness. I think that's totally fair. And I also think that there are some worrisome stats and just numbers and things to think about. This is the oldest defense in the league last year. They're old.

And they're relying on aging pieces to really be at the forefront of this. Like if Hayward missed half the season, you know, Watts getting a little bit up there. I think that that's something to think about. they were number one in the league in EPA for playing the red zone last season. They got eight red zone turnovers. No one else in the league had more than six. You're not going to be able to rely on that going into the next year. But there's always a competing force on the other side as I was trying to pull them down.

They finished second to last an explosive play rate or loud last season. And they still were like a top seven, top eight unit. And it's because Minkham missed most of the season. You drop him back in there. That number goes down. Even if you're a little bit less lucky with some of the health stuff. some of the turnover stuff and some of the red zone stuff, I still think it could maybe come out in the wash.

But your concerns here are not unfounded. Like I think DVOA is in like 20th on defense. And I just, I don't know. I saw that and I was startled. They've been too good for too long for me to do something like that. So even if you think the age cliff might be coming for some of these guys, I don't know. I'm just not that worried.

I think the front could still take over games. I'm going to keep relying on that. All right, who else? Anybody else that you wanted to put on? You just couldn't do it? You know, I think the most like the weird one that I almost wanted to put on was the dolphins. Like I know they're, they have a lot of health problems on the edge. But I think otherwise that that could actually come together and be kind of a scary unit.

I like what they've done at linebacker. Actually, I still think David Long is like an incredible player. Just a little missile man of a person. So I actually kind of like what they have on defense. It's just I think when you, you know, make the change of defensive coordinator, that could be a little bit of a tricky thing. But they were the one team I was looking at. I was like, do I want to make the bet? And I just, I couldn't get myself all the way over there.

Yeah, I get that. The edge stuff concerns me. Those are arguably two of their three or four most important players on that side of the ball. And we don't know when those guys were going to play. That's a huge thing, especially when you combine it with a first year defensive coordinator and just figuring out who they want to be on that side of the ball. I got a couple.

I kind of wanted to put the bears on there. Like the way that they played on defense in the second half of last season, the secondary, I think, is a chance to really be maybe like the best secondary in the league, but by the time the year is over, you take a step forward with Kyler Gordon, take a step forward with Tyreek Stevenson, you know, Brisker is a decent player, you know, Kevin Byard is now there, the linebackers are solid. I really like that group. The problem for me is just I can't get there with a pass rush. If you could guarantee to me right now that Gervon Dexter would be a difference maker this season and all of the hype and changing his body and everything we've

talked about was actually real, then I would feel a little bit more comfortable doing this. But I just don't even think that they're starting defensive line is that scary, let alone when you start to dig into the depth a little bit. So that was one that I was like, ah, maybe, but when I actually started to think about it, I just couldn't justify it. I did put the bears in and probably, and like a little bit higher than I wanted to, truthfully, because they were kind of just a unit where. So where did you have them?

I think six or no, seven. Oh, this is, this is horrifying to me. I don't even know if I want to go down this road. But the thing is, the thing is when I was kind of waffling on, because I'll tell you right now, seven through like 10, I probably changed every single team there like four or five different times. And so at a certain point, I did have the bears off my list. And it was for basically what you mentioned.

The pass rush outside of Montez sweat is not even that good. Even when they got Montez sweat, you like, you know, from week nine on or whatever, there were still like 24th in pressure rate. Yeah, they were the bottom core of the league. Yeah. And like, they didn't add anybody else. else really to go help it to go fix that. And again, maybe you're, you're going to get a little bit jump forward from some of these young guys, but they didn't really bring in any reinforcements.

No. And now, now you're relanking, you know, Austin Booker, you know, if you can get something out of him. You bring in Yanikengakwe. Like, I think that's, Yonikin Gakwe is not saving this group. Like, if this is going to be an elite unit, it's going to be a step forward from your young, highly drafted interior players, and it's going to be the secondary just wrecking shit. And I do think the way that Iberfus plays in the back end and some of the disguise, like, it's a hard defense to play against, but it's really hard to be a difference-making unit and a dominant unit and a top-tenth sort of unit over a long stretch of time if you aren't hurting people with your pass rush when you don't blitz. So I just think it's a lot more fragile than I want it

to be as I think about their ceiling. But you're not worried about that, I guess. I mean, I am. Like, yeah, that was the reason I kind of had them off the list in the first place. But then I just looked at it a little bit more. I think I actually really like the run defense. The linebacker, the moves of linebacker I criticized last offseason when they made them, that's a pretty damn good linebacker duo. Like, Tremaine Edmins, I think, was playing some of the best ball that we've seen from him in a long time. T.J. Edwards is kind of steady Eddie.

Like, he's just the moderately above average linebacker who does all the things that you need him to do. He's perfect. He's the baseline. If you have a guy better than him, he's probably a pro bowler. If you're worse than him, you might need to replace him. And then the back end, like you mentioned. As long as you got two of those guys, that's what you need from that position group.

If you look at it, there aren't that many teams where you feel really good about who they're two starting inside off ball linebackers are. And the Bears probably have one of the best duos in the entire league, even if we're not talking about one guy being an all-pro player like a Roe-Quan-Smith happened to be for them. 100%. I mean, that's the thing. There's only, what, three, four of those guys? And so if you can just get two of the other above-average guys, you're in a good spot.

So I do like that there, especially in this defense where they're going to ask those guys to cover a lot. You know, they're not doing a lot of blitzing. So these guys kind of have to sit in coverage and do their job. And then like you mentioned, the secondary, man, I just, I'm kind of bought in on it. I actually think they, I'm a little bit worried about losing Eddie Jackson and going to Kevin Byard. I'm not really sure if he has a ton left in the tank, but the corners are just so sick. And I actually think they have decent depth there. Like Terrell Smith, who I think was a rookie last year or the year before.

He was a rookie last year. I love that you're trotting out the Terrell Smith propaganda right now. You don't want him to play necessarily. Like, you don't want any backup to play. But I think if he has to get thrown in there for three, four weeks at a given time, like that's really, it's probably a better situation than most teams are going to have in terms of their quarterback. And he did. And he had to play last year.

Yeah. He had to play last year for this team. And I think he was more than playable. So again, the upfront concerns that that that's what just keeps. I keep coming back to those. But I think it's easy to get really excited about what they are on the back end. I probably would have put them at 11 if we were digging a little bit. but further down.

A couple other teams, the bills, the bills have been so good on defense for so long. But in Milano's back practicing, which I don't think I realized before I got there. And there's a, we're going to see him early in the season at what capacity I think is a question. But I can't get there with the second safety spot right now. The fact that we already have injuries there, and they're down two of those guys. They're down the rookie whose name I can't remember right now and Mike Edwards. And so now we've got Taylor Rap like clearly. is your best safety.

That's the one thing. It just gives me a lot of pause about what that group looks like. I think a Micah Hyde reunion is not off the table, but I would be surprised if they did anything splassier than that. This is not a Justin Simmons team, and so I worry about their ability to kind of piece that group together. The Raiders, too many questions about the secondary. Like the second corner spot and they were so healthy last year,

and they have no depth. That's my thing about them. If they get a couple of injuries, I think they're going to be in a really bad way, even if I like Patrick Graham and some of the stuff he does. The Vikings still have too many holes, especially at corner. Obviously, the Kyrie Jackson thing is tragic, but it just leaves them with more concerns and questions at those spots than I think. And with Seattle, I think they can do it. Like, if you told me that Seattle had the eighth best defense of the league to show with Mike McDonald,

it would not surprise me whatsoever, but I don't want to put too much on that. There's still enough questions about the second level, what the secondary is going to look like, all of that for me to get all the way there. But I actually do think I'm more optimistic about that group than some other people might be heading into the season. I think I'm with you on most of those with the bills. My hang up was, so last year they played admirably well for how many entries they had, right? Like it was kind of incredible what they were able to do. The thing is, all of those guys that came in off the bench to start at the end of last year are now just the starters. So if that's your starting point, if you lose any more of the dominoes now, now what? Like, you're just an

even worse position. So that was kind of my hang up. Like they could probably still be an above average unit. Like McDermott's done such a good job there for such a long time. It's just a little bit more fragile than I was wanting. Yeah, especially at safety. And at Corner, I actually think that Elam has apparently looks pretty good. And the fact that now he's depth, if you lost one of your outside guys, you could drop him in and I think things have slowed a little bit down for him.

The defensive line just doesn't have that many like true difference makers on it. At Oliver's a really good player. But other than that, you mostly got Bs and B-Mind. So I do think they'll be solid. I think, again, I put them at 12 probably. I think they'll be a good defense, but they just couldn't crack this list because of some of the personnel concerns. The Olympics are rolling along, and the Athletic Podcast Network has you covered. The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, NBA show, and full-time with Meg Lennahan, are bringing you reports from France after all the big Team USA basketball games and soccer matches.

Plus, check out our summer of champions on the no-dunks feed every night when the action in Paris wraps up. Give it all a listen wherever you get your podcasts. All right, let's start listing this off here. I'm going to let you start. Who is at number 10 for you on your top 10 defenses list? Yeah, I'm going to start with a team that really didn't even sniff my list the first time I made it. And then just the more I thought about it, this is absolutely a coach and a team I want to buy in on. That was the Detroit Lions.

I felt like I needed to make one swing in this top 10 because it was so kind of random. And the Lions were one that I just wanted to bet on. First of all, they just play the way that I like a team to play. Like Aaron Glenn is very much a coach. You know, we talked about it with the Carlton Davis thing on the last show. Aaron Glenn wants to be physical. He wants to be physical on the outside with his corners. He wants to make you earn every blade of glass, every blade of grass that you're running on routes.

I think that's a huge thing. And I think now they have the personnel for it. You get a guy like Carlton Davis. You get a guy like Terry and Arnold. Brian Branch is already there. You draft and his rakeshraw for depth because, so the last couple of years, really, since Glenn has got there, they have struggled to field starting corners, let alone depth. Now they very obviously have guys who should be able to play off the bench if they need them.

I think that that's just a huge, huge upgrade for what it's going to do for them in the secondary. And then the front, you know, Aidan Hutchinson is the obvious star. Alim McNeil is pretty good. But otherwise, I think they're actually in a pretty decent spot, even if there's not that many other heavy hitters. And I actually, even at linebacker, there are some questions about what the ceiling is for that position. But I kind of like the depth and rotation they have. I mean, Alex Ansel and Jack Campbell are probably going to be your starters, but Derek Barnes is a pretty good run defender if you need him to be. Malcolm Rodriguez, same thing. And I think he's actually a really good tackler. So they have decent depth there, so I'm not that concerned. I kind of just love the depth that they have in the back seven. And I think so long as Aidan Hutchinson stays healthy, your pass rush in front will probably be pretty good. So this just all the personnel upgrades with me being a long time Aaron Glenn guy. It just this felt like the unit I wanted to make a stand on.

I have no problem with this whatsoever. They were the one team on my just off honorable mention list that I didn't actually say out loud. So in all of those teams, I think you could make a justifiable case to put them at 10. My biggest concern is still the other edge players. With Kaminsky getting hurt, I think you start to chip away at the flexibility and the bodies that you can throw with the problem out there. It's easy to talk yourself into Marcus Davenport in August. I would like to see Marcus Davenport play more than six games before I get overly excited about what he's going to be for an entire scene. season. We talked about DJ Reader earlier this week, though. I do think that he's the rug that

kind of can tie the room together in the front seven a little bit. You keep the linebackers cleaner. I think that he makes everybody around him better when he eventually gets back from the populist. And I'm with you on the back end depth. They have so many guys they can throw at this. Like, Mel Phonimo was really good for them in the back half of last season. And he may not even start if they're going to end up playing Branchett Safety more. So these are very, very good problems. to have. And the Derek Barnes point is well taken. We talked about this all the time with the chiefs and their ability to use those three linebackers in different ways. Barnes can play on the edge for you a little bit if you want to be in like five down fronts. And I do think the

flexibility there is something that they leaned into. I would not be surprised at all if they ended up cracking the top 10 when it's all said and done. I guess I just have more questions about the front that were holding me back a little bit compared to how you're seeing them. I think that's totally fair though. Like it really is. It really is like they don't really have another second pass rusher. And then even, you know, the linebackers, they don't necessarily have some of the coverage flexibility that Glenn was used to when he was in New Orleans. So I think maybe that could be a sticking point. You don't say. Alex Anzalone is in Prime Demario Davis. I'm thinking not. I'm thinking that's not going to be the case. So maybe those are the

two sticking points. But again, I just, the way they play, I think Glenn is such a good coach that I was, I was willing to make the bet here. All right. This is the team that I have at 10. And I am not excited about this whatsoever. And I feel like a total, I'm just a coward putting them here because I didn't know what else to do. I have the Dallas Cowboys at 10. I don't know how and I didn't like it. I don't know how to handle this because you have a defense that the floor fell out of the defense. And I'm not just talking about the Green Bay game. The second half of last season, after Thanksgiving, this team was 29th in defensive success rate. 22 and a half percent of their opponent plays went for 10 plus yards after Thanksgiving.

It was the third highest rate in the entire league. They were getting absolutely gashed. And I think you could make an argument that they're going to be put in better positions potentially schematically because of what Mike Zimmer can give them. You're going from a world where you play all this single high, all this man to, I'm assuming more quarters. Like Zimmer was near the bottom of the league in man coverage rates his final couple years in Minnesota.

This is a big transition that they're probably going to undergo. And if that can make you a little bit more, more stable, then can the talent lift you to keep you among the best defenses in the league? I don't know the answer to that. And that's kind of where I don't know what to do with them, because I think they still have really good players, but as they get used to playing a certain way, do they lose what actually made them such a dominant group because of the way that they played with Dan Quinn? I don't know where I land on that, and that's why I just threw them here without a better

answer. If they were one of the most annoying defenses for me to look at and where to place, I ended up with them higher. I think I ended up with them like six or something like that. Like I, where I ended up being okay with it was I kind of just trust that Zimmer will get these guys in line. Because truthfully, they played bullshit defense last year. Like this was just, it was they played the lightest boxes.

And I don't necessarily mean like the numbers in the box. I mean literally. They actually played extremely heavy boxes with the amount of people in there, but the dudes weighed 205 pounds. The weight class of the players. Exactly. Like you have you have 270 pound defensive tackles. Your ends outside of the Marcus Lawrence are really not that big. Like Parsons is strong, but he's not that big of a guy. And then all their linebackers were just like fake. Like Damon Clark has built like a normal

linebacker, but almost everybody else that they were putting in the box while they was rolling Donovan Wilson down playing Marquis Bell. These were just not guys that could take on blocks. And that was kind of the biggest issue to me. There was just nobody up front who could command space. and I'm still not all the way sure that they have those guys now. Yeah, I was going to ask you, has that improved at all? Does Eric Kendricks at this point in his career make you feel better about that? I do feel a little bit better about having real linebacker bodies at linebacker. I do think that does something for the run defense.

And I also think having Zimmer come in and establish a more sound way to play defense and a sound way to play their run fits does go a long way. Because you watched some of their run fits last year, even just aside from getting bullied because they were 15 pounds lighter than everybody else, they're just kind of shooting gaps. And like there's no real commanding space that you see from some of the greater defenses like, you know, Baltimore or teams like that where they just very obviously understand what they're supposed to do to let the entire run fit trickle into place and make the puzzle

work. That just in Dallas, bro, it was just unleash everybody and see what happens and pray to God that we can get into the backfield. And I just, Zimmer's not really that way. And I think some of the, hey, let's play real football. let's be adults about this. I actually think that goes a long way and does a little bit more for me to get to keep them in that like top eight range than it does for some of the talent they lost.

I will say the one concern I have, they lost a lot of their reinforcements off the edge. Like obviously Mike is still there. Off the edge in other places. Yeah. Sam Williams gets hurt, right? So you lose Sam Williams on like the second, third day of camp. I was there that day. It was a huge bummer.

you lose Dante Fowler and Doran's Armstrong and free agency. So now you have to rely on Marshawn Neeland, who's a second round pick for you. And even if you're excited about Marshawn Neeland, that's a huge lift for somebody we've never seen play. When they drafted Sam Williams in the second round, he could be like their sixth edge rusher. They are no longer in that position.

And I think the same thing goes at the secondary. Last year, when they lose Trayvon Diggs, they can just pop Duran Bland in there. It's like, all right, we're good to go. And the guy played at a really high level, even if he was buoyed by some of the interception numbers. Now, no such luxuries, man. Like, if one of those guys goes down,

you're dipping way deeper into the quality of player that you're able to put in those spots. So again, for me, it's like some of the concerns they had personnel-wise last year, you're worse on defense in terms of the players that you're trotting out. And so can a more sound approach here make up some of that difference? And maybe, but I also think that there's a lot of, an acclamation period that I would just worry a little bit about. We're going to talk about another team that is going from a more conservative,

you know, we're going to eat up block sort of approach to a more attacking one. I think that's an easier transition and provides more immediate benefits than going the other direction in the way that the Cowboys are this offseason. I think that is fair. Like I said, outside of, I think my top five, I didn't really feel comfortable where I placed a lot of these teams. It's just, I don't know, Zimmer's been too good at this for too long, that I think I'm kind of willing to bet on him.

And the thing is, this to me feels it's completely opposite in terms of the style. But when the Browns went from Joe Woods to Jim Schwartz, who just... Oh, we're going to talk about this with another team here. Where we very obviously have a clear identity about how we want to play the game now. And it's a much different identity than they had before. I think we're going to get something similar like that with Dallas. Obviously, they didn't add any talent to, like, supercharged them the way that the Browns got supercharged. But just in terms of like, okay, this is, this stylistic change was very good for this unit.

I think we're going to get something similar to that. Who do you have at nine? Okay, this, this was another team that I actually had a lot of trouble ranking. And I assumed I would have them a lot higher coming in. And that's the San Francisco 49ers. I also have the San Francisco 49ers at nine. Really? Okay, this is perfect.

This makes me feel so much better. Because so when you started the list, did you think you were going to have them closer to like fifth, something like that? before you really got into it. Yes. I think so. I think I was probably going to have them a little bit higher, even with some of the concerns I had coming in. What ultimately dragged them down for you? So I'll start by saying, when you have Fred, Nick Bosa, and Traverius Ward, you are probably going to be a top 10 or at least top 12 unit regardless. The thing is, like, every other player gives me a lot of concerns. Two are your other best players, Talanoa, Hufanga, and Drey Greenlaw are on the pup. I know Hufanga is coming back very soon and Greenlaw will be.

back at some point, but when they haven't had a full healthy offseason, that's a tricky spot to be in, especially when those guys are really- Fouriers Achilles six months ago. He just shouldn't be. He's probably not going to be the same player that he was, at least not this year, you know, maybe 20-25 totally different discussion, but it's just hard to assume that when he comes back, that he will be the same caliber of player, and they don't have the same depth that they've had in years past at that position.

Obviously, they didn't last year either, but, you know, in years prior, they had Azizal Shire that they could tap on. and they don't have a guy like that anymore. And then in terms of depth, you look it up front, they don't have guys off the edge they used to. You know, two years ago, we were like, this is one of the deepest groups in the league. They've always got these waves of guys.

They lost number three through number seven on their pressures list from last year. Three through seven. And they didn't really add a whole lot. I was going to talk about Armstead, but I didn't even realize it went down that far. It was basically everybody, except for obviously like Nick Bosa, but like almost everybody after that is basically gone.

and they're having to replace them. But they didn't really add anything significant that would be like, oh, this is a great replacement for it. Yeah, I'm not excited about the replacements. No. But going out and getting Leonard Floyd and Yitor Gross Matos to be your second and third

edge rushers because, you know, Drake Jackson's been banged up and also didn't come along the way that you wanted to. That worries me. Armstead was hurt for a good chunk of last season, but he still gave you 500 snaps and they were good snaps. He had 42 pressures on 360 pass rush snaps. That's really good.

production. I just don't know if you're replicating that with Malik Collins and Jordan Elliott and some of the other guys that you brought in here combined with this stuff on the edge. Do we want to talk about the third corner spot here? It's Isaac Yadam. I would love to. Isaac Yadam is currently winning this job because initially I think the thought was they drafted Renardo Green in the second round. Would he be the other outside corner? That would be a concern for me. But now it's Yadam who he's been a journeyman. He had a decent season, back half of the season in New Orleans, then he came over last year. I mean, they're just doing everything they can to not have

Abri Thomas be that second outside corner when Lenore moves inside. But that doesn't mean that I have to be thrilled with the solution here. Exactly. Like I love Charvarius Ward. Almost every other corner spot here is like, and you know, Lenore is a decent player, but he's not, I don't think, a true difference to make it. He's kind of just, you're fine having him out there. But yeah, the third corner spot is just, it's a nightmare to me.

And this has been a problem for them for kind of a long time. Um, their best was probably when they had Emmanuel Mosley, but then like he got hurt. I think the last year he was there and he's, he's been hurt ever since. So they really have just kind of struggled finding that other spot. And then, you know, to go back to the front really quickly, where's the beef? Like they don't have guys who can like they don't have guys who command space at all. Like Hargrave and I think that's notable because they got run on last year. Like how are they not going to get run on this year?

And maybe you going back to Sorensen, Nick Sorensen, their new defense coordinator who, you know, comes from this world. and I think he's going to play in a way that Kyle wants him to, where at times that wasn't the case with Steve Wilkes. Maybe that helps you out. But I think it's well taken. Like, they're running defense concerns. I don't think they did a lot to assuage those in my mind. Yeah, like their de-tackles are Javonne Hargrave and Malik Collins. And those are great for getting in the backfield for making sure you don't get run over on double teams.

It's a completely different discussion. And, you know, for as good as Fred Warner is and for as good as he is, is sifting through trash, he's not the biggest guy and you know he's good at taking on blocks for his size but he's not one of these like joan bentley just punch you in the face and he can take back space it's just not really what he does so it's kind of beneficial if you can have a little bit of of space creation for him up front with the de-tackles but they just especially when you lose a guy like eric armstead they just don't really have that anymore and so i'm a little bit worried that this could be a unit that gets run on a lot yeah and they're going to have to be dominant rushing the passer i think to

hit the ceiling that people want them to. And they were unlucky last year. And in terms of converting pressures to sacks, they were down near the bottom of the league. They still got after the quarterback, but didn't bring them down as much as you want or as much as they had in years past. That could potentially be better, but maybe not because the players that you're asking to do that aren't the same caliber of player as they've been in years past. So I'm giving them some deference here by putting them in the top 10 just because I do think

that the star power can carry you. But I think we have a lot of the same concerns about what the ceiling potentially looks like. All right, who'd you have at eight then? Eight. So this was, you know, this will probably feel bad for 49ers fans after having just put the 49ers at nine. But this to me is the Houston Texans. This was another team. I also have Houston Texans at eight. Jesus. I feel like we actually had a lot more variety in our list here, except for these apparently two exact locations. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. Exactly. But no, the Houston, Texas, man, they're just, it kind of goes back to what I said about

the lines a little bit where this is just a coach that I'm very much willing to buy. like Domeco, his energy is incredible. I think the way that he has coached his players to just be in the right place and the right time at two different spots now has been incredible. I mean, even just last year, what he got out of Christian Harris, who before Domingo Ryan's arrived, it seemed like Harris was just a D.OA type of draft pick. Like he just did not know what was going on. Head of spinning. D'emico gets there and he is a functional linebacker. Like very quickly, it helps that D'emiko is a linebacker himself.

But I think you just see that type of just help along the DECD. defense from a guy like Damico. He's just a guy who kind of gets everybody where they want to be. And then you look at some of the additions they made. I think going and getting to Neil Hunter could absolutely supercharge this past charge. Obviously, John Gernard was a great player. He's a little bit more of like an effort, power, that type of thing. Hunter is just absolute pure speed off the edge, man. And I think when you combine that with a guy like Will Anderson, who has some of that speed as well, but is a little bit more kind of finesse, a little bit more hand use, a little bit more being able to move around as a piece where like you don't necessarily want

Hunter looping in and hitting a guard but will Anderson will go do that the fact that I think you have this perfect pairing off the edge now is great obviously they went and upgraded the linebacker room we spent a lot of air talking about Aziz al Shire on the last show and then the secondary I'm there's questions right and I think we'll talk about that especially we know if they're going to end up starting Kamari Lasseter but I'm just willing to bet on it I think with someone the way that D'Amico has talked about him, I'm okay with it. Carmire Lasser is going to be the other outside corner for the Texans. And talking to people there this week, the main question is speed, right?

I mean, that was the question after the combine and the way he tested. And apparently, he's not getting run by. Even by Tankdell, Nico, some of those guys out there, he's not getting run by in camp. So if that's not happening, then where are our concerns? He already plays the way that they want him to play. And an angry guy is how he was described to be this week. And I think that fits the style that we're talking about with this team. So they feel really good about that.

And we'll see. He's a rookie and we'll see if some of those speed concerns do crop up. But I expect him to win that job. And the thing that I thought was really notable, when you're playing this style of defense, you need the front to play a certain way. And they already play that way. They were number one in the league in yards before contact per rush last season with that group that they were trotting out there.

This run defense was incredible. even with some concerns about the linebacker depth and even with, you know, some moving pieces up front. And now I think you could argue that they have better talent at both of those spots. We'll see what DeNico Autry is missing six games. And when you can drop him back in there, I feel very good about what that group is ultimately going to look like. You mentioned DeNeil Hunter. I think the secondary is where my questions come in. You know, this is, is Petri going to be a full-time safety?

Are you going to move him around a little bit? Who's going to end up in the nickel? That's the one question that I have. But I don't think it can be a lot worse than it was last year. They were sixth and explosive playwright a lot last season on the back end. And I think that's partially because you have Petrie in year one in a new system. And I think that they're, to me, the best version of this group, potentially, is Ward and Kalin Bullock, their third round pick on the back end.

And you move Petrie down into more of like a Nicolish role where he can just be a demon. And I do think that group with the front seven, I can get on board with that. I can get really excited about that. Even if he has some deficiencies against number three inside receivers in that exact role, I do think that the personality of the defense is best expressed with those 11 on the field in that way. And I just think that they're going to get there with the back end, even if it takes some trial and error.

The Petri idea is so good because he is best when he is moving forward and at the line of scrimand. So if you just put him a little bit closer to the line of scrimmage and let him go blow stuff up, you kind of solve the problem of him taking bad angles in the back end or his eyes being wrong. It kind of solves a little bit of that problem. So I love that idea. And Bullock has real range. And that's really his selling point back there. So this group was borderline top 10 last year, even in a rebuilding unit with some big questions. So I have a lot of faith in where they can take it this year with year two and D'Amico and this staff and all of that. All right. Who did you have at seven? At seven was that was where I had the Bears, who we already kind of

talked about a little bit. Yeah. Okay. My number seven is my spicy one here. Okay. I have the Green Bay Packers at seven. I did not expect to get a Green Bay Packers call on this show. Let's hear it. I don't think a lot of people would, considering they were like the 25th ranked

defense in the league last year. How many people would have said that the Cleveland Browns would have been a top 10 defense heading into last season, let alone the best defense in the league? hardly anybody. I didn't think they'd be an above average unit, let alone, like you said, best in the league. And what you said before about going from a system where you were scrambling for an identity,

there was so much passivity in the way that you played, you're just unable to unleash all of the talent that they had. I thought about the Packers and the Browns two years ago in a really similar way, where it's like you have so many guys that you feel good about. You've spent so many resources on this side of the ball, and you just can't get the best out of them. And I think switching over to a more one-gapping, attacking sort of approach, the same way the Browns did last offseason, I think that this team could take a huge jump if you tap into that sort of system.

Because they have the guys up front. They finished sixth in pressure rate last year. Like, this is not, you don't have to tell yourself a story about what sort of personnel this team has. And they've got depth. They've got guys like Carl Brooks, wouldn't play well last year. You know, Lucas Van Ness stepping into year two. Devante Wyatt was so much better last season. I mean, there's a chance that Van Ness, even as a top 11 pick,

is still your third edge rusher this year because of what Preston Smith and Gary give you. And again, talking about the Texans and the way that they play, it starts with the front. And if your front can dominate games in this system, you can do a lot with that. And I think that this Packers team has a chance to do that. I really do. And we can talk about some of the other questions, but that is where this thing is rooted. If you let those guys play with a certain mentality and a certain style, they can take over games for you. And I think that this group has a chance to do that with the switch and mindset this year.

You're kind of selling me. I don't know if it would be enough to put them in my top 10, but I think that's certainly higher than I would have thought of them before this segment. At the front, you absolutely have me sold. Because the thing is, if they were sixth in pressure rate last year, they can still be better. One, because of the system that you're saying, like if you just unleash these guys to go crazy, it could totally make sense, especially but just the way a lot of them want to play anyway, especially guys like Devonti Wyatt. But a lot of them are young.

Like, there is a good chance a lot of these guys just get better. And even if they all just get 5% better, okay, well, that kicks them from sixth in pressure rate to a third or something like that. And that, you know, it may seem small, but that's when you get into the top three, you are just hitting quarterbacks all the top. and that's absolutely huge. My concerns, I guess, were more in, you know, I still think the linebacker play is questionable. I do think this type of system will be better for Quay. Like, I think if you can simplify things a little bit for Quay Walker, that could be huge. I think even if that's true, though, the second linebacker spot is still a huge question.

I know they went and drafted Edron Cooper, but he's like not a linebacker to me. So that was kind of a weird, a weird spot. The youth down the spine is what could potentially hold this back, because you're relying on a young player in Quay Walker, a young nickel in terms of experience in Kishon Nixon, which that, that's, you know, we'll see how that experiment goes. Javon Bullard is your second safety. Edron Cooper is your second linebacker. I think that's all totally fair. And that is what could potentially hold this group back. But I feel good about the outside corners. Because even if Eric Stokes does get hurt again, and it sounds like he's healthy. I mean, by all accounts, he's practicing, he's playing,

he is that other guy on the other side of Jair Alexander. I thought the Carrington Valentine played well for them last year. And I actually think in this system, it really aligns with his strengths. You can be a little bit more aggressive. He can get up and just be punching people in the mouth. And if Jair can stay healthy, I think the corners have a chance to be a strength of this team. And if you combine that with the front, I'm okay living with some of the youth in the middle

of it. I do think that you can overcome it if you can play man with your corners and you can just beat the shit out of people with the front. So I'm banking huge on the stylistic change and the moment. mindset change carrying this team in a similar way that the Browns got carried last year. And I'm not asking them to be the best defense in the league. All I'm asking is, I'm going to be the seventh best defense in the league. There's going to be somebody that sneaks up on us here, somebody. And they're my bet just because I'm going to bet on the front first and

everything else later. No, it's a good point. I do think if we did the exercise of like who's a defense who was bottom third last year that could be in the top 10, this would be a great pick. I just, again, I don't know if I would have guessed that we actually got here. But I think think it's a good pick. There's, there are too many very, very good players. And I think that you can make a better, but get better case about fewer holes on the lions. But again, I just feel better about the front in Green Bay. And we've seen this before. Maybe I'm putting too much stock in what happened in Cleveland last year. But I do think that there's something to that. If you can take guys who've had to eat up blocks and play a gap in a half and you can just unleash them, the personality of that unit can change.

And I really do think that the Packers have a chance to do that this year. They don't have somebody on the staff that has coached this front before. And I guess that would be partly maybe my biggest question because of how important the front is. The Browns, they had Schwartz, right? Like this started with Jim Schwartz in Tennessee like 15 years ago, right? I mean, it's his baby in a way. And Chris Kassurik and the Texas defense coordinator, Matt Burke was in Tennessee with them. Aaron Whitecotton, who does this with the Jets.

He was the assistant offensive line or defensive line coach for the Niners. So there's mostly people who have been very close to these ideas. Halfley was really the only one in Green Bay if you actually look at the staff. But that's really the only thing that was holding me back a little bit because I do think the personnel is set up to thrive if you let them play this way. All right. So let's run through your 10 through 6 very quickly here before we get to the top five. Yeah. So my 10 through 6 was the Detroit Lions, San Francisco 49ers, Houston Texans, Chicago Bears, and the Dallas Cowboys.

All right. So I had the Cowboys at 10, the Niners at 9, the Texans at 8, the Packers at 7. God, there's a chance that looks really fucking dumb here, like three or four months from now. And I had the Steelers at 6. I love having one pick, though, where it just might blow up in your face. Whatever. Live a little, right? I had the Texans in the top 10 defense last year.

I had the Texans of the top 10 defense last year, and people were like, that's insane. How can you leave the Broncos off? Defense is weird. It is important to acknowledge that defense is weird. All right, who'd you have at five? I feel like the top five teams are probably going to have more overlap here. In terms of, yeah, I'm more questioning, you know, the construction, the order here, but I think the teams are basically the same.

I actually had the New York Jets who I went in thinking I was going to have higher on the list. And then I watched them a little bit more. I thought about some of the ways that this team is supposed to play and some of the personnel losses they had. And I just, I think they'll be very good. but I got to a point where I couldn't get all the way back into elite territory with them. I have them at two, but I don't disagree with anything that you just said. Where do you think some of the weaknesses or the holes are that other people might not that are super bullish on this team? So for me it was two things.

One of them is personnel based and the other one is like a stylistic thing, which might be more about me than about the Jets truthfully. The personnel one is just the personnel one is just they lost guys up front. and that's kind of objectively true. Obviously, they're trying to get, it's a huge deal. They're trying to get Hassan Redick to come and play football, and I think that would help a lot. But the problem is you lose a guy like John Franklin Myers.

Where is, I said this earlier for another team. I think it was the Niners. Where is the beef? Like, they don't have, I think having a guy like John Franklin Myers on the edge who could just crush the pocket on first and second down constantly and kind of free up some of these guys like Quinn and Williams, who's more of a quickness and explosive guy.

And then some of their other quicker, faster edge rushers, I think having a guy like John Franklin Myers kind of went a long way. And so you don't have him now, you just lose a lot of beef on the edge. And I think that hurts your run defense in as well. And then if you're kind of structurally just in worse, if you're getting run on a little bit more, okay, maybe you're not in as many obvious past situations. Okay, well, now your secondary is not quite as valuable as maybe as it was before.

So that's a little bit my concern. My other thing was, and this is kind of similar to, you know, where's the beef is, I just don't think that this is a unit that plays with a lot of energy and a lot of physicality, especially in the back end. I think you look at a lot of the best defenses, or at least maybe it's just the ones that I like watching, but they are ones that will hit you. It's Baltimore. It's Kansas City. It's New England. Even, you know, kind of the only other exception is the Browns, who play obviously a very similar style to the Jets. But I think if like it's just, I just don't really like watching these teams that are not as physical. And I think the Jets don't really tick

that box for me. And so I think that was probably the biggest thing that that got me to drop them a little bit from this obviously elite tier, but putting them at kind of the end of the elite tier. You've kind of talked me into this. I kind of wish I had them a little bit lower on my list. But again, everybody has questions, right? So everybody I have ahead or slightly behind them, I think has a ton of questions. And for me, it was about the continuity more than anything else. Like the fact that you have the same defensive staff, they've shown a really good ability to kind of build on things year over year and stay just a slight step ahead, even if there's, it's not super complicated.

I just think they mix up coverage as well. They're hard to get a beat on. But I think the personnel concerns are well-founded. You mentioned John Franklin Myers. I got like Quentin Jefferson, who was really good for them last year. He was really good for them. And we'll talk about another team that Quentin Jefferson is on now. He's somebody that that's how you feel dominant over the course of an entire game.

When you're only playing your defensive line in 700 snaps a season, when you're given some of those snaps to a guy like Jefferson who got you six sacks last year on a per snap basis was still really effective even deep in his career. We're chipping away at that stuff now. Now we got Javon Kinlaw starting for this team with real questions about how many real past rushers they have behind them on the interior. You mentioned the lack of size without John Franklin Myers, but even the guys they're relying on now. Like Will McDonald has to come in and make a difference for this team now if they're going to be as good on defense. Hassan Redick has to come in and be as good as Bryce Huff was last year for them to be as good on defense. I think there's a world where that happens. Redick played the sixth most snaps among edge players last year.

Huff obviously was a rotational player. You're going to take something off of Reddick's plate. Can you get more of him on a per snap basis? There's a chance it all comes together. But I just think threading the needle is a little tougher. And again, there's like a health thing with me. Mosley, the combination of Mosley, Quincy Williams, Sauce, and DJ Reed missed a combined three games last year. What if that's 12?

Like, what happens to this team? Because they don't have real answers behind those guys, and I think especially at Corner. You could say that about a lot of teams, but I think they were healthy in the right ways last season. If they're a little bit less healthy, what does that ultimately mean? So I had them at two. I kind of feel bad about it now. I kind of wish I had them a little bit lower. like you've talked me into this.

No, there's still a really good unit too. I don't want to sit here and, you know, poo-poo the fifth best defense here. I still think the secondary is really, really good. Like, again, I would like them to hit people a little bit more. But just in terms of pure coverage skills, I mean, it's them in Cleveland. Like just in terms of pure man-to-man, like you can just run with guys. It's them in Cleveland. And that's it.

And so I think that they definitely have that going for them if they can stay healthy. The front will still be good, too, right? They're not going to be bad. It's just when you go from being in a. elite defense because your front was maybe the best in the league to now your front is maybe the sixth or seventh best in the league. Okay, well, that kind of just changes the math and structure of what you are defensively. So yeah, I just, they'll be good. They will still be very good. And again, the continuity was a huge part for me why I didn't want to drop them any lower.

I think keeping basically every other defense I have in the top five was a continuity thing, except for one was just you have a lot of the same guys and a lot of the same coaches. Cool. That's really good. I think that's a good thing. That's part of it. That's what did. for me. Like the Ravens lose a defensive coordinator, the Patriots lose Bill Belichick. And so that's why I just kept pushing them up and up and up. And I think everything that you said is is totally fair. Even like at safety, you know, Chuck Clark gets hurt last year. You don't have to rely on him, but you had those, you had Adams and Whitehead that played for a majority of the season. Now Clark is starting for you. You're just chipping away at the depth in a lot of these different spots. And I think that that is at least

worth acknowledging. But again, they just, they were so good last year and bringing back to people in charge of that thing. I think that's why I gave them the benefit out a little bit. All right. At five, I had the New England Patriots. I think we flipped the Patriots in the Jets. Did you have them at two? I think I had them at, well, no, I had them at three.

Sorry. Okay, all right. So you had the Patriots at three. I had them at five. Bill Belichick is the best defensive coach of all time. Like, I just don't, even if you feel so good about the personnel. And the fact that this was, they were, last year, they were number one in the NFL and EPA per play on defense in the second half.

the season while being the most injured team in the league on defense. That's crazy. So you assume that with better health in the secondary, you get Christian Gonzalez back. Marcus Jones is banged up now, but hopefully he gets back, and you feel good about the safeties. I'm sure you'll talk about the linebackers. They're going to be so much healthier on that side of the ball. But how much does that matter and how much does that offset losing arguably the greatest defensive coach that we've ever seen? And that Steve Belichick was a defensive play call. He's not there anymore. either. So you've got carryover, Christian Cummings and their defensive coordinator was on the staff last year. I like that more than starting over with a new scheme. But I think it's really important

to acknowledge what sort of defensive coach Bill Belichick is, even if the offense was an absolute mess over the last three years. I think that's totally understandable. That's the reason I think I had them a little bit lower, especially, yeah, I don't know. Bill is the greatest of all time. And even if we think Mayo is going to be good. And maybe I'm just buying it too much. I do think he's going to be good. He might be. He's not Bill. There's just not another bill. And that's okay to say. It's okay if Gerard Mayo was not Bill Belichick from a defensive tactician point of view in year one. Yeah, it's okay if he's not the greatest to ever do it, especially in year one. There's absolutely no crime in that. But I still think, you know, even though they lose a little bit of continuity. I mean, I know he was on the staff, but he wasn't calling plays. He wasn't,

he's not Bill Billichick. I think in terms of personnel, they brought back basically everybody that was playing significant snaps last year. Losing Christian Barmore is an absolutely huge thing for them. And that's certainly going through. It's a huge deal. That's the other thing to push them down a little bit for me.

I think he was their best player. He had 12 more pressures than anyone else in the team last year. And I get that Judon's coming back and Uche had a down year. Kean White and year two, fine. But Christian Barmore is a linchpin of why this defense was good last year and just taking him out of it, that's a monstrous thing for this team. Yeah, I think more than anything,

you lose a lot of your ability to get into the backfield with him. Like, I still think even without him, a lot of their other defensive linemen are good at holding space. They know how to get where they need to be, all that other jazz. But in terms of actually affecting the quarterback and hitting the running back in the backfield, he is the biggest reason that they were able to do that.

And he actually, them losing him is why I flipped them from two to three at the very last minute. So I did have them at two at three. So talk me into this. I see okay so for me it is a lot of kind of the opposite of what I talked about with the Jets this is just a team that plays the way that I think defense needs to be played they are just a very sound unit they're a very versatile unit they're a very physical unit this is a play's not players defense and I think that that's okay and obviously when you lose Bill Belichick maybe that gets not his sound but I think when you have a guy like Mayo who has played in the system and then obviously coached in the system for a long time he should understand how it is supposed to work and then they just they're bringing back almost all of the same same guy. So it's not like they're having to integrate guys into the system and, you know, oh, our new starting safety or whatever has to learn all this and that, I just, that's not really

going to be a problem. And then you look at to me, some of the other young guys on the, on the team that I think could really take a step forward. I thought Christian Gonzalez looked pretty good when he was allowed to play. You know, it was only like a couple games. Yeah, before he played, before he got hurt, he looked really, really good. And again, he's, I've said it before, just the style of corner I like, big, physical, long, just the type of guy who, one is just a really good corner, but just really fits for the personality of this defense. And then Keon White, I know he didn't really put up numbers last year, but this defense always has a 280 pound defensive end who crushes the pocket. Like, you know, Trey Flowers was probably the most notable recent one, but like they just kind of always

have this guy. And I think Keon White, despite the numbers not being there, actually showed some pretty good stuff on film to that end. And I think if he takes a step forward this year, that could be absolutely huge for them in that regard. So I still just like a lot of the pieces here. And then, you know, I talked about earlier, every defense has to have a henchman on the last show. Jalani Tavai, dude, he is actually a good player now. He is 100% the henchman on this team. He is a legitimately like good player. He's good in the sense of you have to limit the things that he can do. But you can put him on the edge and he can set the edge. You can, you know, if you know, know you're going to be in base personnel on first and second down. He can obviously defend the

run from between the tackles. He's a shockingly good coverage defender, not eyes in the back of his head run up the seam like Fred Warner, but he actually does really, really well to understand where he's supposed to be when he's flowing off the line of scrimmage, flowing out of the box initially. He's just, I think a guy who has been very well coached in this defense and took to it very, very well. And that matters a lot. And I think that just matters a lot for kind of gluing things together over the middle. So I don't know, man. That's exactly the right way to frame him, by the way. he's the glue guy. Like, he's just doing a little bit of everything.

He's got a diverse role. We'll see if MAPU can be a similar sort of player this year as they use him as that third safety. He's been a little banged up. But they just have a lot of those guys. And that's the nature of the defense, right? We have guys that can play a variety of roles. Dugger can do that. I think all that stuff is totally reasonable.

Again, for me, it's a Belichick thing and a Barmore thing. You lose the best defensive coach ever and the best player in your defense, arguably. It's going to have an impact. And I don't think it's going to have a monstrous impact. I still have them in the top five. but that ultimately was the reason that I couldn't push them up even a little bit higher. I think they have a chance to be really good on that side of the ball, though. Who did you have at four?

At four, I had the Kansas City Chiefs. As did I. This is just, I know they lost Legerius deed, and Lagerius need to save really, really good player, truly an all-pro caliber player. It's spags, dude. Like, I just kind of, I looked at the roster and I was like, man, this feels 5% worse, but they have spags. They still have Chris Jones.

They still have George Carloftus. they still have their safeties like Justin Reed played really, really well last year. They still have Trent McDuffie. I just thought they have most of their best players and they have with Belichick gone, maybe the best defensive play caller in the league. I was willing to give them a little bit of benefit of the doubt here. This is just, yeah, I'm willing to bet that Spags will have his unit right by December. This is exactly where I went.

I have nothing to add to that. He is cooking right now. I mean, he's gotten to a place where, you know, the amount of just, very too high coverages that they play combined with the pressure. He's figured it out. It is all just clicked into place when it's like, all right, this is the way I want to play with this personnel. And I know that losing

Sneed disallows you from doing some of that, but not really. You know, like Josh Williams is long, he can be physical. I think that he's probably going to end up winning that other outside corner job, which allows you to slide McDuffie inside. There's so much versatility. That's what I really like is that

in any given situation, we have three linebackers, we feel good about. So we can play different fronts with those guys. Those guys have different skill sets. And the same is true on the back end. If you want to play in a world where Chamari Connor is your nickel because you need to be a little bit bigger there, you can play with McDuffie outside. If you want to slide McDuffie inside and put Josh Williams there and you play with the two safe, you can do that if you want to. There's just so much flexibility combined with the quality of the play caller and like real star power. Try McDuffie is an all

pro-level player. Chris Jones is an all-pro-level player. You're dropping your first-round pick pass-rusher now into this equation who didn't play last year with FAU. So I think that there's a chance that the talent, even after losing Sneed, is arguably better in 2024 than it was last year. And you combine that with Spags. And I think that they have the makings of a top five unit. Like on a little technicality thing, I think that they might play such a piece. pace and be so dominant on offense that just the style of games that they're in doesn't allow them to be a great defense. But that's really like my only sticking point with this. Everything else I feel pretty good about. I totally understand that. And again, that's not even really their fault.

That's just when Patrick is scoring 40, when Patrick is scoring 40, the other team is going to try to do the same thing. So that totally makes sense. For me, too, it came down to, I think last year, what we really saw and what made this Chief's defense special was a lot of these guys that are starting for this team. These are Spags's guys. Like, these are guys that were drafted in the last three, four years that have been there since he's been there. They understand all the ins and outs of the system. And you've seen them be able to expand their toolbox a little bit because of that. And so obviously you lose Ligerius Sneed, who is a true number one outside corner. But almost every other player who is starting on this defense is either Chris Jones, who was drafted before he got there,

but is an all pro player, so who cares? And almost every other guy was drafted within the last three, four years and is a Spag's guy who fully understands the ins and outs of the system. That is huge when you run some of the crazy shit that Spags wants to run. That's what I mean, the vision has coalesced. Like, the vision has come into full view. They understand what it is now. And listen, Lagerie is a great player, but guess what?

They lost a number one quarter two years ago in free agency. He left. They just slotted another one in there. And I'm not saying that Josh Williams is going to be. Trevarious Ward or Legerius Sneed. But if there's any coaching staff that deserves the benefit of the doubt for how they've developed these outside corners over the last three or four years, it's Steve Spagnolo and Dave Merritt, their defensive backs coach.

This group has shown an ability to do it consistently, and I think that there's a chance they do it again. The one guy, I did not mention by name that I want to because I think he's actually awesome is Mike Dana. I think Mike Dana is like a really good football player. He got into contract extension this offseason. like their second third defensive end you know when amenahue comes back he's probably your fourth you know defensive end or third he's undersized but he he i love that guy he just gives you a ton i think

that he's he can hold up against the run better than you might think at his size he's got some juices a pass rusher like the fact that that's the third or fourth edge player when everything everybody else is healthy i think speaks to some of the depth and the quality of this defense like you mentioned three four years into them really building it up. I 100% agree with that. Dana is such a good player. And he's just the type of player that encapsulates what a good physical defense is supposed to be.

Correct. When he's your third, fourth defensive end off the board, he's a little bit undersized. But you still see him setting the edge. You're like, wait, they could just get this off the edge from a 250-pound guy. It's just, it's crazy. They find physicality in so many different ways. The fact that Chanel gives it to them, like, Tranquil just has like a real fuck-you attitude about him at this stage of his career.

The play he had, I think it was on the first play of the AFC championship game, where he just, I think it was Zylir or John Simpson. I couldn't remember which guard. He essentially just put his forearm in his chin. And it was just like, this is how that's going to go today. Just want to let you know. He never did that with the Chargers, by the way. Never.

That's exactly what I'm talking about with the Packers and the Browns last year. Like when you, you can take the same pieces and you can drop them into a different defense that plays a different way. get different results. And I think you can do it on a unit wide level and you can do it on an individual player level. And I think that that's why he was available for $2 million or whatever was last offseason. And then he got a nice little chunk of change this year because he looked like a different player in this defense.

And that speaks to coaching. And I think that they've really consistently shown an ability to do that. All right. So I had, and I guess you have this team at two, I had the Baltimore Ravens at three. I already feel bad about that. I wish I had the Jets lower. I just, I don't know why. Again, it was the continuity thing.

With the Ravens, so you had them at two, let me just, I'll lay out some of the negatives and some of the concerns I have before you can tell me that I'm over-correcting too much. Losing Clowney is a big deal. Okay? It's a big deal. He had 10 sacks last year. He had 71 pressures last year. He had the best pass rushing season of his career. Chuck Smith, their outside linebackers coach, is kind of this renowned technician, some of the cross-chop stuff.

stuff. Clowny's tool bag was never that deep. He's a power guy. He's explosive. That's why he was a good run defender. But some of the things he added to his bag last year as a pass rusher, we got a different version of him. Losing him matters.

I do think that O.A. took a bigger step forward than maybe some people might credit him with last year. I think that he's only 25. I think he has a chance to take even another step. But now you're relying on Kyle Van Nuoy as your second edge guy rather than your third edge guy. Like, again, we're chipping away at some of the depth here. I think that matters.

The other spots, like, I don't know. Eddie Jackson for Gino Stone, I feel fine about that. Trenton Simpson for Patrick Queen. I feel okay about that. But at the core of this, like, Mike McDonald was really good at his job. He was really, really, really good at his job. You said Spags might be the best defensive play caller in a post-Belichick world. Mike McDonald certainly has a claim to the crown based on what he did with that unit over the last couple years.

And even if you're bullish on Zach Orr, who's now stepping in for him, you lose McDonald who's a proven difference-making coordinator and you lose a couple other guys in the staff there are Wilson their DB's coaches in Tennessee now Anthony Weaver was their defensive line coach now he's the defense coordinator in Miami so enough change and enough questions for me on the edge where I push them a tiny bit down even if I think that this still has a chance to be a really really good defense so tell me why I'm taking all those things too far no you know what all of that stuff is fair and I think Clowny is especially a good defense point because kind of like what I talk about with John Franklin Myers with the Jets is just he was

kind of their beef and their strength off the edge. And obviously, like you said, he added a little bit more to his bag than that. But he was kind of their tone setter off the edge. And if you, you don't have that, that certainly hurts a little bit. And they didn't really add a whole lot to fix that. Maybe their young players take a step. But even stylistically, you're a big bad on a job, oh man, a guy we haven't seen play yet. But even if he's good, he's just like the polar opposite player of Clowny anyway, so it doesn't even really fix the problem. Like, Ojabo is more like Josh Uche or Bryce Huff. Like, he's that style of players.

So it doesn't even stylistically do a whole lot to replace Clowny. For me, it just came down to a lot of, I think I am buying Zach Orr, or rather, I'm buying the Ravens as an organization. As you should. Right, as I should. Because, you know, we did this with McDonald in a way two, three years ago where he had been on the Raven staff for a very long time, learning. under Wink Martindale for a lot of that time, went and spent a year in Michigan, was obviously

really good and then came back to Baltimore or has been on this staff for a while. And this is one of the handful of organizations where if you have a guy who has just been born and bred there to coach, I'm probably going to trust him. And so again, we haven't really seen him call plays yet, but this is one of the handful of orgs where it's like, yeah, man, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this guy will have his stuff together. And then I think even with losing Clowny, I'm still pretty bullish on the rest of the roster. I think their interior defensive line is really good, and they have a lot of depth there.

They have three, four, five dudes who can go play ball. And I think having that is absolutely huge. Roquan Smith is anybody who's listened to me ever, knows that I'm the biggest Roquan Smith fan in the world. He just unlocks so much in coverage. He unlocked so much in terms of what you can do, defending the perimeter, whether it's screens, run game, all that sort of stuff.

Kyle Hamilton is truly one of one in the way that he plays. the position just in terms of body type, physicality, coverage skills. And I think when you have not just a player who is an all pro like him, but... Let's take a step back. If you're putting together a defense right now, how quickly does Kyle Hamilton go off the board for you? Is he one of the first 10 defensive players you pick? I think he has to be.

I think he absolutely has to be. I think there's going to be a handful of edge players you've got to take, maybe one or two defensive tackles, maybe one or two. I think the defensive tackle group is deeper than you want it to be if you're trying to make the Hamilton case. There's so many guys now, even without Donald, Jones, Quinn and Williams, I think Dexter Lawrence is probably in that conversation. There are a lot of guys affecting the game. Jeffrey Simmons, I probably take Hamilton over Jeffrey Simmons, but there's a lot of those guys right now. And then you have all the edge guys.

It's probably a discussion. but the fact that we're talking about like a hybrid nickel safety, even in the same breath as those guys at those positions, I think speaks to how much of a unicorn we're talking about here. That's what sets it over the edge. It's not just that he is an all-pro caliber safety nickel, whatever you want to put it. It's just that the way he plays, there literally isn't an analog, like there's no other analogous player for him. He is truly a one-of-one in terms of body type physicality and coverage skills. And I think that as a defense, again, when you have an organization, that is so just well honed to what they want to do and what they want to be when you have a

player of this caliber. I think they're always going to get the best out of him. And then, you know, I know it seems people are a little bit waffling on the corner room. I kind of think the corner room is fine, especially if Wiggins comes on. I have no issues with him. Yeah, like, I think Stevens is better than they, than people think that he is. I 100% agree with that. Yeah, I think if Wiggins adds five pounds and is built like an NFL player, he'll be totally fine. And then obviously Marlon Humphrey, Marlon Humphrey is a funny player. His bad moment, he's almost like Josh Allen as a quarterback in the sense of his bad moments are just so bad. He gets just fried on a go ball three or four times a year and he just looks like the worst cornerback in the league. But on 95%

of the other downs, he's a top 10 corner. And I still think that he's going to give them that this year. So I'm like I said, losing clowning off the edge hurts and you want a little bit more there. But I think this is a defensive structure that can kind of make up for that. And then I just trust all the other players. Yeah, you got difference makers at every level, right? Like, Mada Beake came on last year in a huge way. He's such a good player. You got Roquan on the second level, and then you got Kyle Van do it.

Or Kyle Hamilton. And Marcus Williams has hurt for a huge chunk of last season. So you get Marcus Williams, hopefully back healthy. I think that is a chance to take this thing up a notch. And I feel really good about the corners. You had to play Mollett last year because if you wanted to keep Hamilton as safety, you really didn't have a better option there. I thought Mouette had easily the best season of his career,

you could say that about a dozen Ravens last year. I just think you have a ton of more options. And I think that Eddie Jackson thing is important because even if you're a little bit worried about Eddie Jackson, the whole point of having Eddie Jackson is so you can move Kyle Hamilton to the nickel when you want to. So getting that third safety in the building is a huge deal. And I actually, I'm with you on or, I obviously losing McDonald's a big deal. I talked to Kyle Hamilton about this. I thought his answer was interesting. I'm always curious about how the personality of the defensive coordinator.

is manifest in how they call the game. And obviously we haven't seen him do that yet. But he told me that Mike could be a little prescriptive, not in a bad way, where it's like, based on down distance and personnel, this is a call I feel really good about. And because or played, I think there's more of a let's freestyle a little bit here, where it's like on third and 12, rather than just calling like a, you know, some sort of like safe grip version of cover three and rallying and tackling like, can we create an explosive play. And there's risk in that.

but I do think that there's a chance that you can make a really dynamic unit. The transition from year one to year two with McDonald was him going from, I'm afraid something bad is going to happen to how can I make something good happen? And I think that there's a chance they even accelerate that or turn that up even more with a guy who has Orr's personality. And you combine that with some of the tweaks that I think that they're going to bring to this defense coverage-wise. And I still think that they're going to be really, really good. If Orr could find the aggressiveness meter between where McDonald was and where Wink was before him,

we're in a great spot here. And I honestly think that's probably what he's shooting for. So I think that might be it. So we both had the same team at number one, which was the Cleveland Browns. Yeah. I'll start this. When I was starting this list, I did not anticipate having the Cleveland Browns at number one. Volatility on defense is super real.

And especially when you have a historic year like they did. They were historically dominant for huge stretches. And some things that happened in the second half the season gave me a little bit of pause. And it wasn't the Texans game in the playoffs. It was the Rams game. What the Rams did to them and what a good defense can do to, or a good offense with a good quarterback and a really good play caller and a good plan can do to a team like this that is in regulated coverage looks, you know how to kind of pull levers. If they're going to be a man,

we can make the nickel run 100 wind sprints over the course of the game. I was a little worried about that. Like when they play good defenses, good quarterbacks, are they going to have some of these issues because the defense is a little bit simpler than some of the other really good teams,

the Ravens of the world? But then you start actually looking at it. And you look at players, other teams lost, play callers other teams lost, and also they don't play. any good offenses. They play the Bengals twice, and they play the Ravens twice.

Other than that, they have like a week 14 game against the Chiefs. For the most part, they're playing mediocre to bad offenses and quarterbacks, and this is the type of defense that feasts on mediocre to bad offenses and quarterbacks. So I just think that there's a chance we see it again. And when they have to play against elite teams in the back half of the season and into the playoffs. I still have some concerns about some of the changeups, so we can talk about that, but that wasn't enough for me to knock them from this perch. They can take a huge step back and regress and still be the best defense in the league, considering where they were at last year.

I'm so with all of that. And the thing is, I don't know if I would, I think it's hard to project exactly where each defense is going to rank, but this was the defense where I most felt like. They will be top five one way or another because it's what you said. Who was the worst player that they lost? Anthony Walker? I mean, he's an okay linebacker. I think they believe that they upgraded with Jordan Hicks stepping into that spot. In terms of hitting people and playing in the box, they're absolutely right. And I think you need that when you have, when your other linebackers, J. O.K., who is incredibly fast, incredibly quick, does not take on blocks very well. So I think they've actually kind of made their pairing there make more sense, which last year stylistically, they kind of did too,

but with the defensive tackle group. Like this was a unit where two, three years ago, man, you could run on them probably more than any other interior in the league. You could. It was bad, dude. Every double team was guaranteed six yards off the ball. That's just not the case anymore. And then you mentioned at the top of the show, Quentin Jefferson, where's he at now? Cleveland.

Yeah. It's a perfect spot for him. Like they just, they understand, I think, what the weakest points of the defense were two years ago. And all they've done this offseason is like continue to build on what that was. And then they still have all their star players in the secondary. Obviously, you have the best defensive player in the league. now because Aaron Donald's

God now you have Miles Garrett It's just I don't know man There's too many of the great things There from last year that are still there Like almost nothing has changed Yeah they go five deep at defensive tackle Their third round pick Taki I think is his name They actually feel pretty good about him from a couple years ago

Just as like another body they can throw with the problem The fact that Quinn Jefferson is the fifth defensive tackle on this team is wild Even if you want to Hem and Hall about whether it's him or Mo Hearst Mo Hearst is really good for this team last year And then you they go too deep along the defense line and some position is three deep. It's absolutely ridiculous. The linebackers are solid. Tomlinson and Greg Newsom both hurt right now. They're both coming off surgeries. Based on conversations yesterday, they're likely to be ready for week one. So they should be fully healthy by the time this

this thing all gets kicked off. And one of the things I was curious about when I was there yesterday is just asking, all right, what sort of wrinkles? Not what did they get to be? You don't have to tell me that, but are you aware of the fact that you need some more of them? Because by the end of last year, team's got a beat on you. And the answer to that is yes. I think we're going to see more disguised from this team this year. Last year it was we're going to line up in single high and we're just going to beat the shit out of you. Like we know that we can do it. We're better than you. Their only change up was a swartz would call like a cover two. A funky cover two. Yeah, he would just be a weird cover two once every drive and it would be like,

all right, that's it. I did it. I don't have to think about it anymore. So I think that we're going to see some more ambiguity on the back end because last year it was about establishing this is our identity. This is who we want to be. This is the way we want to play. Now you step into year two. What are the tweaks on that? that look like? Can you be a little bit harder for these good offenses, good play callers to get a beat on? And I think the answer might be yes. And you combine that with just the personnel with really no weaknesses. Like really no weaknesses. And even on the back end, like Rodney McLeod gives his team decent snaps last year, Ronnie Hickman, who had to play for them last year when Delpick got hurt,

I think that was actually a good thing for them because they've developed some depth in some of those spots, that there are just very, very few personnel weaknesses. And if they can change things up enough on the back end and just throw three, four, five more curveballs a game at some of these really good teams. I still feel good about betting on them to be the best defense in the league. Dude, Delpit, by the way, you talked about, you know, Schwartz obviously coming in and changing the attitude of this defense. I don't think you saw that from anybody more than Grant Delpit. When Grant's 100% correct. When Delpit came out of college, the thing was like, he can't tackle. He takes bad angles. He doesn't want to hit people in the run game. Dude, you watch him last year.

he is in the box mashing tight ends. You're like, I was literally, literally stunned when I saw Grand Elpit. I was like, is that, like, do I have the jersey number wrong? Like, is that actually the same player that I thought he was at LSU? It's a startling transformation for him. It's awesome. He just, I think he was way in his own head in the previous system. There's just too many things rattling around in there.

And I think simplifying things for him specifically went a long way. And that's why you saw a different version of him. There are even things about this team last year that, like, they were unlucky. they were dead last in red zone touchdown rate allowed. They allowed 71% of opponent drives last year ended in touchdowns against the Browns. They were dead last at EPA per play in the red zone. There's a chance that they could be better in some of these areas. They won't be better as a defense.

They will not be. And I think they're even prepared for a situation where they're like the fifth best defense in the league because that's just typically how it goes. But again, I just couldn't find a team that I was willing to make the bet on in a way that I'm willing to make it on them. Exactly. The other teams had too many questions, too many new questions. The Brown's defense doesn't have any new questions. They are what they were last year. I'm willing to bet on that. the last stat I'll throw out when they blitzed last year they gave up three and a half yards per play

that was a full yard better than any other defense in the league the gap between them and the Jets at two was bigger than the gap between the Jets and the team at 15. There are some wild stats with this team so again even if they get worse even if they play like a more normal NFL

defense for 17 games they still could potentially be the best defense in the league so all right that is all we've got Those are our top 10 list. List off yours one more time for me 10 to 1 before we get out of here. All right, let's do this one more time. The Detroit Lions at 10 and then the San Francisco 49ers,

the Houston Texans, the Chicago Bears, the Dallas Cowboys, the New York Jets, the Kansas City Chiefs, the New England Patriots, the Baltimore Ravens, and the Cleveland Browns. I had the Cowboys at 10, the Niners at 9, the Texans at 8, the Packers at 7, the Steelers at 6, the Patriots at five, the Chiefs at four, the Ravens at three, the Jets at two, the Browns at one. I kind of want to move the Ravens up and just say there are two, but I'm going to stay with my list. I'm not going to be not going to run away from my choices here.

And the only team, you had the Lions end, the Bears in your top 10. I did not. I would have had the Bears at 11, and I absolutely think that I would have had the Lions at like 13, 14. And so them being a top 10 defense wouldn't surprise me at all. I think the reasons for optimism you trot it out are totally fair. And with the Packers, I want to say really quickly, if they are that good, this team is winning 14 games. Like, actually. Yeah.

And that's partially why I almost didn't want to do it. It's Texans, too. Like, if the Texans are going to have the fourth best offense and the eighth best defense, like, man. And part of me thinks we might be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. But with what happened with the Browns last year, I kept coming back to who has a chance to be this year's Browns? And so that's why that was the answer that I eventually went with. All right. that is all we've got today.

We will be back tomorrow with my buddy Greg Rosenthal from the NFL network. We're going to be talking about some training camp storylines. What are we buying? What do we not? What matters? What doesn't matter? I was excited to chat with Greg. And I think that he has such a good feel for all of this stuff and being able to kind of

wade through the bullshit at this point in the calendar. So excited to have that discussion with him. That is all we have for today for Derek for our producer Michael Beller. I'm Robert Mays. We'll talk to you guys later.