The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Prospects to Pros: Clemson’s defensive line, 2023 NFL Draft outliers & teams that need the most help at QB

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Andy Staples is in Knoxville ahead of Tennessee’s matchup against Kentucky. He joins Dane Brugler to talk about Hendon Hooker, Will Levis and the other top prospects to watch. Plus, they break down the talent on Clemson’s defensive line before diving into Bailey Zappe and the NFL teams that could be looking for a QB next year. They end the show by talking about the prospect outliers in the draft and what they are watching in college football this weekend. Follow Andy on Twitter: @Andy_StaplesFollow Dane on Twitter: @dpbruglerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube0:31- Tennessee’s vs. Kentucky (Hendon Hooker, Will Levis, Jalin Hyatt, Cedric Tillman)13:52- Clemson’s defensive line24:47- Ohio State’s DE Zach Harrison30:05-NFL news (Breece Hall injury, Bailey Zappe questions, QB needy teams heading into the 2023 NFL Draft)41:49- Draft outliers (Bryce Young, Peter Skoronski, Devon Achane)52:14- What to watch this weekend Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to Prospects to Pros, where we talk about college football players who are about to be NFL players, NFL players, NFL players who are just college football players and everything in between. I'm Andy Staples here with the Athletics Draft Guru Dane Bruegler. And Dane, I am excited because I am in Knoxville, Tennessee, and I am going to a game this weekend that has massive current college football implications. And probably will have a lot of eyes on it from the draft community. And I'm sure tons of scouts credentialed for it because you've got Hen and Hooker for Tennessee. Will Levis for Kentucky and a bunch of other players on that field who a lot of people are going to want to take a look at. That's, I mean, college football just seems more fun when Tennessee is good like this.

You know, it just, it adds another, you know, SEC has always got good teams, obviously. But when Tennessee is good, it's been so long. But when Tennessee is good, it just adds something a little bit extra. And you're right. With this game coming up against Kentucky, this is going to be all eyes on these two quarterbacks. With Henan Hooker, what does he do against a pretty good defense? You know, he's checkmark against Alabama.

What did he did against LSU? Okay, well, let's keep it rolling. See what you do against Kentucky. And then Will Levis, you know, he had that tough game against Old Miss, had a couple of those turnovers that ultimately led to the loss, then he was hurt, came back, you know, in the last game, and clearly didn't look 100%, but he still was good to see him out there. Now it looks, it sounds like he's more towards 100%, and this is a tough place to play in Knoxville, going up against a Tennessee defense that's vulnerable, but still, it's something where, you know,

scouts are going to be expecting him to put on a show of both these guys, and so it would be fun to watch. Well, and this is a defense that gave up 400. guards passing the Anthony Richardson earlier in the year. And Richardson has not looked that confident against anybody else, really. Now, some of that was with the game kind of mostly decided. So I don't know exactly how much you're going to lay at the feet of the Tennessee defense. But you did see Bryce Young slice and dice to them pretty good.

It just so happens that Tennessee scored 52 on Alabama. So they were running past Alabama defenders in a way that you're not used to seeing. this is a difficult unfair question but since you're there you know boost on the ground do you get the sense that this is a team that is focused on going one and no this week or do you think there's maybe you know there's a little more attention are they are they reading some of the reading their own news clippings i mean what kind of sense do you get from this tennessee team especially from i know you've talked with jalen height you talked with a couple of these guys that are considered top prospect.

I think they were very fortunate the way the schedule fell this year. Because normally it would go Alabama, open date, SEC opponent. The way their schedule used to work was they'd play Alabama. There'd be an open date and they'd play South Carolina. Everything got shuffled up a little bit a few years ago. And so the way this one worked is they played Alabama. They beat Alabama. Everybody was crazy.

The next week, they immediately play Tennessee Martin. not a game that they would have any threat to lose, but a game that I think kind of help refocus them. And, you know, if they'd have had an open date between Alabama and Kentucky, I would be putting all of my money on Kentucky to cover in this game because it would be a classic letdown spot. But the fact that they had to re-center and refocus and play a game, I think that's going to help them.

Talking to Jalen Hyatt, he said that Tuesday night after the Alabama game, 8.30, he's back in the complex. catching balls from the jugs machine. Like they're a morning practice team. He'd already practiced and lifted. So this was just him saying, let's go. I want to try to do this again.

And this guy just scored five touchdowns by himself against Alabama. So I think they are pretty focused. But Kentucky presents some challenges that, you watch Kentucky shut down Mississippi State's defense the last time we saw them play. Kentucky had an open date to get healthy. They are mostly healthy. Will Levis feels like. he's as, you know, healthy as he's been since that injury, obviously.

Jokaz Jones, they're inside linebacker. He's out, but that's pretty much it. Everybody else is healthy and back. And you saw against Mississippi State, Chris Rodriguez, Jr., was really running well and kind of sucked some possessions out of that game. It felt like Mississippi State can never get in rhythm. That's where I would worry if I were Tennessee, because they're a rhythm-based offense, you know,

when they're able to get on the field regularly, their timing works, hooker and his receivers are in sync. If you can keep them off the field for, I'm talking about actual time minutes. This is something that Alabama really couldn't do. You can maybe get them out of sync. You maybe get a three and out.

And then maybe you can sandwich some scoring drives around that. That's how you take control of a game against a team like this. But the problem with this particular Tennessee team is, They just, I mean, they come roaring back and they have so many weapons. And we'll see. I don't know if Cedric Tillman's going to play in this game. He had the tightrope procedure on his ankle that he hurt earlier in the season. But it's either probably going to be this week that he comes back or next week against Georgia.

And that sets a good, you know, kind of look ahead with Georgia coming up. That's something that, you know, they have to get by Kentucky first, but it's hard not to look past that and see the Bulldogs coming up. And that's, that's going to be, it's going to be a tough two weeks, but we're going to learn a lot more about this Tennessee team, a lot more about these prospects, you know, and that's a good point about kind of the ball control. And, I mean, Will Levis in that Kentucky offense, they run more of a pro-style scheme than most other offenses in college.

You will see Will Levis under center more than most quarterbacks. in college football. That's how they they'll run the ball. They're running the Shanahan offense right now. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Exactly. From that you know, they tweak things a little bit with the new offensive coordinator coming in, but for the most part, it's still that McVeatree, which is essentially

the Shanahan tree. Well, Rich Skangarello came from the 49ers. So, I mean, their current OC was with Kyle Shanahan last year. I mean, so you're getting a lot of those same concepts. And And, you know, if their offensive line has a good game, they will be able to control the possession. Tennessee's offensive line is another one. I'm interested in looking at. As we record this, I'm going to be talking to some of those guys later today.

You know, they've had a really good year. They've done a really good job protecting Hinden Hooker. You didn't hear Will Anderson's name a lot in the Alabama game. And like Will Anderson, the week before against Texas A&M, I think he might have had one sack or maybe he didn't have any sacks. but he was in the backfield nearly every play he was on the field. That wasn't the case against Tennessee. Darnell Wright, the right tackle for Tennessee, had a phenomenal game against Will Anderson.

So that's a guy that I'm really interested in seeing up close in person. Yeah, and he, a former top recruit who never really lived up to it, but he's playing well as a senior. And he's not the most twitchy when it comes to his hips. and some of his redirect and things like that. But he's big. He's got some length to him. And he just does a nice job staying in front of pass rushers.

I mean, he just makes it tough to get around him. And sometimes that's all you need to do. You know, it's a result-oriented position. You know, you don't have to necessarily check every box. If you can block your guy, you're doing your job. And so, you know, that type of thing does not go unnoticed by scouts. back to Jalen Hyatt real quick, I'm interested. You know, watching him, you get like maybe like a Will Fuller vibe from him because of that speed.

And as an underneath threat, he's very unproven. But if you can get that one-on-one coverage and he can just use that speed where it's either verticals or one-cut routes, I mean, he is a tough guy to cover. It seems like he's really burst on this. I mean, it not seems like he has burst on the scene this year. I guess he wasn't really a guy we were talking about all that much. Talking to him, I mean, did you get a sense of, you know, is this something he saw coming?

Is this something where, you know, this was maybe what they were projecting for the offense coming into the year? He felt this coming in fall camp. That's when he really felt confident. And he said it took him a while because he got a concussion against Pittsburgh in game two last year. that kind of messed up his whole season. Now, he wound up playing again as the season went on, but his confidence was shaken. It was the time where he was out,

it was very hard for him to kind of reconcile. The world is moving on without me. They're going to play games whether I'm here or not. I heard his dad interviewed and, you know, talking about explaining that to him and saying, look, it's okay. You're going to be okay, but you've got to understand you've got to work your way back.

And part of the thing with Jalen, I think, is he's, he's been a more wiry guy his whole life. And keeping weight on has been hard to do. He plays right now between 180 and 185. And he said, you know, he gets on the scale and it's 184. He's really happy. And, you know, but he has to eat five meals a day to keep that weight on. And boy, what he gets to eat sounds amazing. He's like dinner number one will be like country fried steak and mashed potatoes.

come back and eat a second dinner of that on a normal day. And but that, but he has to because that's just been the whole thing. Like he's from Columbia, South Carolina. South Carolina and Clemson, neither one of them recruited him because they felt like you're too slight. We don't know if you can put weight on or keep weight on.

He has kept weight on. And he said the biggest difference he feels is he, he feels stronger and he feels like he can play press coverage, like he can get off press coverage because the biggest problem he had was, was, you know, if a bigger guy got his hands on him, he's done. None of that speed matters at that point. So now you're seeing him able to, when he's got a safety matched up on him, and this offense will try to find mismatches.

They're trying to get him on a safety who's kind of a run, filler, you know, thumper downhill guy. But what that guy will try to do because it's the only thing he can do against him is get him right at the line of scrimmage. And Jalen's gotten better at getting, away from that. Well, Will Fuller at the combine was six foot, even 186 pounds, ran a 4-3-2. That sounds pretty similar to what we're going to see from Jalen Hyatt, both size and speed. So that comp might have some merit.

4-3-2 is just mind-boggling. That is so fast. Yeah. But also, I mean, Hyatt has, he said that being able to keep the weight on also helps him break tackles, which is something that he hadn't really been able to do before. And so now he's doing that. So again, I keep pointing out, no Cedric Tillman, that adds a huge physical presence to this receiving core that wasn't there. You know, Cedric is a bigger guy who also can move. And so that would just create more mismatches once they get him back. And I wonder, do you want to try to work him in if you can against Kentucky or bring him out against Georgia. And it's like, hey, try to cover this.

Best group of DBs Tennessee is going to see. Yeah. Well, and that tightrope surgery is something that, you know, it knocks you out for, you know, what, six weeks usually around there? Tucker Kraft, the really talented tight end. He was my tight end three coming into the year. I was like 35 overall. He got hurt, the first drive,

the season against Iowa. I think South Dakota State beats Iowa in that opener if Tucker Kraft stays on the field. He got back under the field against North Dakota on Saturday and had a beautiful 32-yard touchdown. He looked good. He was moving at full speed. So good to see him bounce back from that tightrope surgery. Hopefully we can see Tillman here pretty soon as well. Yeah, I think the most famous one was Tuatung of I Loa getting it in 2009.

I didn't get heard of it before Tua. Yeah, that was the first I had ever heard of it. Right. part of the normal lexicon when it came to football injuries. Yeah, I have a neighbor who's an orthopedic surgeon and I'm like, okay, explain it to me like I'm a kindergartner, please. And he did. Right, right.

But it is, it is amazing because it does help those guys, because those high ankle sprains, a lot of times there's, there's risk of re-injury. There's, you're scared to bring them back full speed. This apparently stabilizes things a little bit so that you can feel a little more comfortable bringing them back in a little more timely fashion. but let's talk a little bit more about some of these games last weekend, Dane. The one I think a lot of people were watching from a draft standpoint was Clemson, Syracuse. Clemson's D-line, it's a nasty group.

That's, you know, I think they're going to wind up undefeated. I don't know that they necessarily are going to deserve to be in the college football playoff. They will be if they're undefeated. I don't like their chances. But what gives them a puncher's chance is having a grown man. D-line. Yes, 100%. And we were, I mentioned earlier, five maybe could be drafted.

There's six defensive linemen that could realistically be drafted in April just from that defensive line alone. It's crazy. On the edges, Miles Murphy, the junior, if he comes out, he has a chance to be a top 10 pick. He is, you know, same reasons Trayvon Walker went number one. Same reasons we're talking about Miles Murphy being a potential top 10 pick. Not only does he lead the team and sacks.

tackles for a loss, but he's 6-5, 275 pounds. Number three on Bruce's Bruce Feldman's Freaks list. They clocked him in the 4-5-in-the-40-yard dash, I think a 35-inch vert. He's long, and it was a good battle in that game against Syracuse. Miles Murphy against left tackle. Matthew Burge-Rond. Burjorn's a great story. You know, a kid from Canada had zero offers until he went to a Syracuse camp.

They snuck them in, kind of a quiet, Ascension, but he's been a really nice story for Syracuse and really their best player. I mean, Sean Tucker gets all the love and, you know, the Garrett Williams at Corner is a good player. Matthew Bergeron might be their best player. And he went from a maybe a third or fourth round pick over the summer. Now, I mean, it's going to be hard seeing him get out of the top 60, top 75 picks because of how good he's been playing. That Miles Murphy-Berseron matchup is really fun to watch. Brian Brisei, the defensive tackle,

I mean, he's lived up to all the hype he came in with. He's going to be a potential top 15, top 20 pick. After him, then we're probably looking at the next guy. Maybe it's either Tyler Davis, the senior defensive tackle, who is, he doesn't have the length that you want. That's going to be, we'll talk about outliers here in a little bit. But he's one of my outliers this year because he has, shorter arms. And there's the list of defensive tackles that have been drafted in the first

hundred picks or the top four rounds with under 31.5 inch arms, it's a short one. I mean, it's just there's not many guys that have done it. And so, but Tyler Davis is a really disruptive player. You throw on the Wake Forest tape and they couldn't block them. But let me tell you about this, a small town near where I grew up in Florida, it's called a POPCA, Florida. It's a Okay, yeah. Known for, you know, Orange Grove, basically. And so Tyler Davis and Jalen Carter were playing high school football. Now, they did not play at the same school.

Tyler played at Wakiava High School and Jalen Carter played for Apopka High School. But they're basically the same time. I think they're a year apart. Can you imagine that level of talent? And oh, by the way, there's probably no chance that either of you will be the best defensive tackle from your town. Because Warren Sapp is from him. Jeez. Yeah, they're doing something right in that town.

I'll tell you that. Yeah, Trey Henderson, too. Oh, wow. That's, I mean, it's, Davis is a good player. He's going to get beat up for the process, like I said, because he's 6-2-290, and he's got probably around 31-5-inch arms.

And, you know, like I said, going back the last four or five years, Ed Oliver, I think is really one of the only defensive tackles with shorter than 32-inch arms drafted in the first three or four rounds. And Ed Oliver has the best get off of any human being you'll ever meet. Right, exactly. He's in that unique territory with, you know, not quite on Aaron Donald's level,

but just in terms of being not exactly what you'd look for, but it's just too disruptive to care about, you know, with the size of the package, what it looks like. So those three guys. And then we have KJ. Henry, who has been a revelation, year. He is top 10 in the nation and pressures. He can win with speed. He can, he's got a nasty spin move. He's really aggressive with his hands. I don't know that he's going to be a top two-round guy, but somewhere around three, four, five, Kaja Henry is going to be a nice pickup and a nice

addition. So he's, he's had a really nice senior year and taking himself from a borderline draft pick to a certain mid-round type of guy that can come in and help your defensive line. So that's four, Rooka Rororo, the defense of tackle. He's also, if he comes out, he's a junior, he could go back, but if he comes out, he's getting drafted. That's five. And then the sixth guy, Xavier Thomas, who, a former five star, he surprised a lot of people when he decided to come back this year, got hurt in August, broke his foot. And he's just working his way back onto the field now, but he's another guy that had draftable grades going into the year. So that's six defensive

lineman right there that are on the radar will be draft picks if they if all six of them declare that is it it is really when clemson has been at his best is when it has had that level of defensive line uh you think back to the the group in 2018 you know you had cleveland feral uh christian wilkins austin bryant dexter lawrence so three of those guys were first rounders Austin Bryant actually might have been the most productive of the group as a senior. And I think he went in a third or fourth round. So but and then they had other guys who were kind of role players behind them like Niles Pinckney and who wound up being pretty good players.

So I just that is what gives them a shot. Offensively, you know, they don't, it doesn't feel like they have a lot that you as a draft guy would get super excited by. I would imagine Will Shipley next year when he's capable of coming out, but not anybody really draftable this year that blows you away. No, I mean, I like Jordan McFadden on the offensive line. You know, he's got a guards body. He's 6-2-305.

I think he's played really well this year. I think he's got a good chance to be a draft pick. But no, your point, I think you're spot on. And with the situation, a quarterback's really interesting. they've said DJ's the guy, but I mean, you can't bench him again and still say he's the guy, you know, so it's, he's, the margin for error is much smaller now. And, you know, they've got a game coming up this weekend against Notre Dame, which Notre Dame is not, maybe not what we thought it could be coming into the year. You know, their offense is basically find 87 and

just throw to them to see what happens. And the defenses know that. Unfortunately for Mr. Mayor. Honestly, it's better than them underutilizing him. So at least they know who their best player is, and they're kind of throwing it to him, see what happens. But, yeah, that Notre Dame, we'll see how the spread looks like on that and if Notre Dame can give him a game. But, yeah, that Clemson offense is really inconsistent.

I mean, Syracuse, they should have won that game. I mean, they had every opportunity to... And they were dropping, like, fly, well, their best corners out. Right. They're on like their third nose tackle and he keeps getting hurt. And so, yeah, the fact that Clemson won that game is, you know, I'm not entirely sure that Clemson will wind up undefeated. I think they will be. But after watching South Carolina beat Texas A&M, I started to go, you know, on the right day, maybe there's a chance.

Right. And the ACC just doesn't, I don't know that they're going to see someone on that schedule that's really going to. I mean, Louisville's coming up, Miami's coming up. That's not, I mean, South Carolina. You never know. Yeah, probably North Carolina championship game and see Drake May, but the problem is North Carolina's defense is so bad that Clemson, despite its offensive struggle, we'll score like 45 points on them.

So. Yeah. And, I mean, North Carolina's offense, their defense is pretty bad, but their offense is. It's amazing. Drake, Drake May, I, it sounds hyperbolic, and maybe I've said it before, I can't, I don't remember, but he looks like just what Justin Herbert looked like at Oregon. I mean, he's big, he's an athlete, he's got a big time arm, smart kid. I mean, there's a lot of parallels to Justin Herbert, and he's still, you know, he's a true sophomore, I think.

So he's still very young. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so he, I know he's not eligible for this draft because we'd be talking about him a lot more. Oh, the tank for Drake Talk. Yeah, the tank for Drake Talk is going to be big time next year because I think he's going to be the guy everybody's talking about. Well, I mean, and I, look, next year's quarterback class always better, right? That's what everyone says.

So, but I mean, honestly, let's, well, you look at next year's class, you've got Drake May, Caleb Williams is legit. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's, he's so much fun to watch. Quinn Ewers, he's going to get better and better and better. We'll see what, we'll see what that looks like. You know, we, he still has hardly played college football, and he's got a lot of, to work with.

And J.J. McCarthy at Michigan will see how he develops, but there's a lot of talent there. So, yeah, as we look forward, I mean, it wouldn't be, I know, again, people always say next year's quarterback class is better. I would not be surprised at all of the 2024 quarterback class ends up being much better than a 2023 quarterback class. It feels more, you know what it feels like to me is more high ceiling, high bus potential? Yeah, that's fair. the people in this class feel, like, I don't know that there's a potential megastar, but more people who might wind up being capable NFL starters, if that makes sense.

Yeah, and that makes it interesting. We'll talk about it in a little bit with the draft order and all that's shaping up, but some teams will have some decisions to make. If they want to, you know, with Bryce Young, C.J. Shrive, we'll Levis, you know, it would be hard to pass on one of those guys hoping for, you know, just depends on where they are in their roster rebuild and all that. So it'll be a fascinating conversation with some of these quarterback needy teams. Let's talk about another guy on the D-line who had maybe his best game of the season.

We've talked about him earlier. We talked about Zach Harrison after Ohio State played Rutgers, but he played probably his best game against Iowa, and now he's about to go up against Penn State. What have you seen from him? Yeah, Iowa. I mean, for all the criticism that Iowa gets

with Spencer Petrus at quarterback, it's not just Spencer Petrus. The offensive line cannot block anybody. Their only weapon is Sam Leporta. And, I mean, it's just, the entire offense has, something's got to change there because they've

got nothing going for him. But Zach Harrison, I mean, he gave the left tackle and the right tackle a really long day. But the interesting thing with Zach Harrison, is, you know, he last year, and we've been talking about Harrison for a while now, he's a former five-star, top recruit in Ohio, you know, Ohio State was able to keep him home. You know, so he's a guy that's 6-6, 26-pound, 36-inch arms, and he's going to run in the four-fives. Maybe even runs

in the four-fours. This guy is ridiculous. He was running track sprinting as a senior in high school at, you know, 240-some pounds. So this guy is big, he's fast, and right there alone, that length and that speed is enough to give blockers trouble. Iowa couldn't do anything with it. And does he still need to develop in terms of a pass rush sequence, in terms of setting up his moves, introducing some more things to do to get blockers off balance? Yeah, he does. He's still a work in progress in that respect.

But when you're that big and that fast, you're going to be drafted high. And the interesting thing with Zach Harrison this year, he's actually playing less than half the number of snaps that he did last. year. Last year, he averaged 47 defensive snaps per game. This year, he's only averaging 22 snaps per game. So he's still a starter, but it's a decreased role. And I don't know if, you know, fatigue, if that plays a part of it. And so just seeing fewer snaps, more of a rotation and Jim Null's defense, if that's helping him. But he's seeing fewer snaps, but his impact has been greater. So it's a really interesting dynamic with Zach Harris at Ohio State.

I mean, bottom line, the guys, he's going to, the combine, his combine performance is going to be ridiculous. And he's going to be mentioned as a potential first-round pick. I mean, he started the year of my top 50. He'd probably stay in my top 50, just a matter of how high can he go. But it's just he's a really interesting player who is still learning, still developing, but his role this year, whether it's inside, playing more on the interior, I'm outside playing on the edge. It's just, it's always been like a kind of a moving target. And so it's been interesting to see how they use them. Well, and I'd love to tour of the factory where Ohio State creates these six foot six,

255 pound fast edge rushers. It's, it's pretty crazy. And it's not, it's not just the Bosa household, by the way. They always seem to have like, you know, like Tyreeks Smith looked apart. I think he was a little shorter, maybe a little bit heavier. But there's always some guy or two there where you walk into the practice and you go, oh my God, how does anybody ever block that guy? And when they reach their potential, you get Chase Young. Yeah, right, exactly. And, you know, Larry Johnson is a big part of that. One of the best assistant defensive or assistant coaches period in college football. Yeah. I mean, that's a big selling point when, you know, Ohio State's recruiting these guys. But I mean, Zach Harrison, he almost went to Penn State. Penn State's another one of those

schools that, especially, you know, whether Jason O'Way or Michael Persons, these freaks that they find, because, you know, even though Zach Harrison's from Ohio, I think he was born in, like, Chicago. So he doesn't really have those Ohio state ties, even though he did decide to stay closer to home. But, yeah, it's Ohio State, Penn State, those two schools especially. And even, I mean, throw Michigan in there. You look at Quitty Pay and Ajaobo and Hutchinson. I mean, they have a good track record to produce. impact guys on the defensive line.

Well, if Harrison keeps developing like this, I'll be curious to see where he winds up because he will, like you said, put up great numbers. Right. Yes. In the process in the underwear Olympics. And it'll be key for a guy like that not to count it twice.

Like, I mean, the reason he's rated so high now is because we know he's a freak. So when he goes out and shows it at the combine, let's not bump him up even more because he's already getting that bump. So, you know, for him, it's more of finishing the season and getting better each game. And he's done that against Rutgers, against Iowa. But can he do it against Penn State?

Penn State has one of the best left tackles in the country, Olu Foshinoo, who one of the biggest risers this year could be the first or second or third offensive lineman drafted if he comes out, only a redshirt sophomore. He's just 19 years old. He's a young, young player. but the talent is there. So hopefully we get a few of those Zach Harrison versus Foshanoo matchups. Let's shift gears and talk about the guys that are in the NFL now.

I guess we probably can't start without talking about Breece Hall, who was one of the most exciting rookies this year. Torn ACL, he's out for the season. But, I mean, it's crazy because I remember when I was a kid, if you tore your ACL, it meant your career is probably over. Brees Hall could still have a very good career. Mm-hmm. You got to, you know, it's going to, we'll just have to wait till next year.

And that's the thing is each knee responds differently. Every body's, I mean, look at J.K. Dobbins. He's had a really tough time. And I know it wasn't, you know, there was a lot of things going on, you know, with his injury. So, you know, we just, yeah, we have to take each injury on an individual basis and go from there. But, yeah, we certainly hope the best. Now, on the flip side, I mean, Breece Hall, he was my number two running back in the draft. My number one running back is starting to take off over in Seattle, Kenneth Walker.

Just like he did at Michigan State, you know, transferring over from Wake Forest. He took off last year for the Spartans. And, I mean, not to take anything away from, you know, Thorne, a quarterback or, you know, a couple of talented receivers. But Kenneth Walker was that. I think he could take away. We've seen them play this year. That's fair.

He was that offense. I mean, he was a ton of fun to watch. And then, I mean, I didn't see him running up. He's fast. He ran a 4-38, the combine. And so Kenneth Walker was, I mean, to me, the top running back in last year's class. And so far, he's starting to play like it. It's a lot of these chunk, big play, explosive plays that we saw at Michigan State.

It's starting to translate against NFL defenses. And that's a lot of fun to watch. Yeah. And it was one of those that he sort of burst on the scene. it just didn't quite work for him at Wake Forest. He gets to Michigan State. He's perfect for that offense. He's dominant in the Big Ten.

And you're right. It seems to have carried over to the NFL. And I can't wait to see what he winds up being. Now, there's another rookie who is the topic of a lot of debate. Already was the topic of a lot of debate in New England, but especially after Monday Night Football. and it was weird for about 20 minutes. He was the king of the world. And that's when he was singing along with Stacey's mom.

You kind of hear it there in the background. If you saw the game, he's literally sitting on the bench, singing along with Stacey's mom. He's just led the Patriots to a second consecutive touchdown. It looks like, okay, they've weathered the storm from the bears. They're going to, you know, Bailey Zappy has replaced Mack Jones and everything's going to be fine. Yeah, it wasn't fine.

The Bears wind up blowing them out, and New England's offense was pretty stagnant in the second half. That quarterback situation is weird, because it feels like Jappy gives them more than Jones does, but Jones was a first round pick. And I'm curious, from your standpoint, you know, how much does draft value play into decisions like this? It feels like someone like Bill Belichick isn't going to overrate draft. value at the expense of winning games, but it's still hard because you used a first round pick on this guy. Bill Belichick does not care about. Not even like 1%.

He nobody moves on quicker from draft picks than Bill Belichick. You know, he does, once you're in camp, it doesn't matter if you're a second rounder or a seventh rounder. He is, it's just who's going to give us the best chance to win? That's, I really believe that with Belichick. He does not care about your resume and it's just what can you do to help the team. And so it will be interesting. I mean, Mac Jones, he's not 100%.

I think that was pretty clear. That's not necessarily an excuse. But, you know, it's something that how do they manage this going forward with two good quarterbacks. But I don't think either are great. I don't think either are, you know, to the level of, you know, where you just, you don't have questions about. I mean, with Bailey Zapia, I mean, again, my. comp for him was Case Keenum. Case Keenum's been in the league for over a decade.

He, you know, was a big, you know, he almost let the Vikings to the Super Bowl that year. I mean, he can win games in the NFL, but he's got a ceiling. And Mack Jones, I think, has kind of a similar ceiling, but his ceiling might be just a little bit bigger. So it just comes down to who Bill Belichick and the coaching staff feels the most comfortable is going to win them games. And it might be something where we see them flip-flop the rest of the year just as they try to figure it out. I mean, just hearing some of the comments by the players, the Patriots players, they still feel like it's Mack Jones's team, you know, based off of what he did last year coming into the year. So, you know, I, you know, those players just want to win too.

But it's something that, you know, it's not just, okay, retracting my previous statement about not, you know, they're just going to throw out there who's going to give you the best. chance to win. The, you know, the culture of the locker room and all that, that matters too. And so it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Yeah. And so it feels like around the league, this was going to be a year where a lot of people were going to take quarterbacks pretty early anyway. But it feels even more now, like there are going to be a lot of quarterback needy franchises. Like, you know, I don't know what we were thinking the bucks would be. from a draft standpoint going into this season. But it sure feels like right now they're going to be drafting a quarterback

because I don't know if we see Tom Brady again after this year. Yeah, that's obviously something that it's hard to guess right now. You know, this is the same regime that drafted Kyle Trask in the second round. I mean, Kyle Trask to me is a career backup. You know, I may be a spot starter. I certainly didn't see a guy that is going to lead you to the promised land. But we haven't seen enough of Kyle Trask to really know if he's developed. So that's something that obviously the Bucks know better than anybody else.

But yeah, there's, I mean, there's plenty of teams. And it starts at the top, obviously, with Detroit right now is, they've got the number one pick. Detroit is a team that should have more than one win based off of how they played. They just haven't been able to get it done. But they're going to be in that conversation to draft a quarterback. Houston's right there, one, four, and one. They're going to be in the conversation to draft the quarterback early.

Carolina somehow beat the bucks. So, you know, they kind of hurt themselves in terms of draft order. But I still think this team is going to lose way more games than they win. There will be quarterbacks when they pick it like four or six. Right. Exactly. And then right now with the way Cleveland's been playing, remember Houston's got Cleveland's pick. And so right now, Houston's got the number two pick and the number five pick.

And that's a really interesting part of this. So, you know, that's, what, three teams right there in the top three, four, five picks that could potentially go quarterback. And it's, you know, this quarterback class is not going to be, I don't think it's going to be like two years ago when we had Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Tray Lance, Fields, Mack Jones, where it just felt like quarterbacks were going to go, you know, one, two, three. And I don't think it's going to be like this because I don't think these quarterbacks are, I mean, I like C.J. Stroud, I like Bryce Young. I like Will Levis. But it's not, they don't have a universal, a universal approval rating from NFL teams and NFL scouts out there.

It's not like these guys can't miss. And, you know, it's, it's, like you mentioned earlier. It's, they don't have the super high ceilings, but you do, there's a lot to like about them where you at least like their floor. it also feels like a lot of the guys we thought might rise up and have great seasons or build on promise that they showed at the end of last year that hasn't happened you know it didn't happen with tyler van dyke at miami i don't know philierkovic at boston college he looked apart for a while but he's gotten hurt a bunch of times and it just it just never seems to really come together for him and you know you wonder who who that person is you know i just don't know it hinden hooker probably is the one that we he's yeah that we weren't talking about that we are talking about now the only other guy i mean and we'll shelve anthony ritchison for this

yes that's 2020 he's a guy right uh yeah we're both on board with that i the one guy that i think we should maybe talk a little bit more about who's got ability and teams like is Tanner McKee at Stanford. You know, Stanford's obviously got a good track record of... Two wins in a row. Yeah, exactly. So there's, I don't like his mobility. That's the biggest thing hang up I have with him.

He looks to me like a better version of like Mike Glennon. You know, Mike Lennon played in the league for a lot of... Davis Mills? Well, yeah. I mean, and Davis Mills, he was the one guy that I thought maybe could, between him, Trask and Kellyn Monde, Davis Mills, I thought, was easily the best of that group. And I think he has been, but still hasn't secured a starting job in the NFL.

He's not going to make the Texans bypass any of these quarterbacks that they really love quarterback early. But with Tanner McKee, he's a really accurate quarterback. You know, obviously coming from Stanford, you know, we're smart. There's things about, and he's playing on an offense that there's not a ton around them in terms of help, in terms of making that an explosive unit. So Tanner McKee's the one, you know, maybe he's in that Hendon Hooker tier where guys that you could see a team falling in love with them. And not to the point where you're taking them, I think, top 10, but maybe they could sneak into the first round.

I think that's at least not an impossible part of this process as we as we go forward. And McKee will have to declare he is technically an underclassman. He's older. He'll be 23 in the spring, I believe, because he was a two-year mission guy. So that's something that could factor in his decision as well, because he is technically a third year sophomore, but he is older for his experience. Yeah. It is, it will be interesting to see how these teams react.

Because like the Colts just benched Matt Ryan. Sam Ellinger is the start of the rest of the season. I don't know that Sam Ellinger is the long-term solution. I guess we'll have to give him a chance. You know, we'll see if Texas is back, but I'm just not, not sure that's going to happen. I like Sam. I hope it does happen for him. Sure, yeah.

That mobility should help a little bit, but I don't know. We'll see. but the Colts may be in the mix for a quarterback. And there may be more quarterback-needy teams than there are quarterbacks that you feel comfortable could potentially be NFL starters. You have a story coming out on draft outliers and some really interesting numbers on Bryce Young,

which you asked me a question before the show. I got the answer wrong. Now I'm curious to see, let's ask it again, and let's see if the audience can get this right. Okay, so, yeah, this article I've got coming out later this week on draft outliers. For whatever reason, they fall out, you know, whether it's size, it could be age, you know, handed hookers in there. It could be a lot of different factors where they played, the lower level of competition, whatever.

So something makes them an outlier. And for Bryce Young, obviously, it's going to be the size. And when he measures at the combine, he's probably going to be closer. I mean, he's listed at 5-11. probably going to be under that, definitely going to be under six foot. He's listed in like 194 pounds. I'll be very surprised if he goes over 200 pounds. So he's going to be under 6 foot and under 200 pounds.

The last 25 years, the last quarter century, 301 quarterbacks have been drafted. Only two of those failed to reach 6 feet and failed to reach 200 pounds. Neither were drafted in the first three rounds. So that maybe Probably makes it harder, I guess. Yeah, I guess Kyler initially, you didn't tell me that the first three rounds part. But Kyler, you said, was 207 when he got drafted. And Kyler is thicker.

Like Baker Mayfield is thicker of the smaller, you know, in statute of Bruce. Russell Wilson is thick. Yeah, I just, okay, so I'm struggling to come up with who this might be. because, you know, and it goes back 25 years. It's not Doug Flutie. Also, Doug Flutty, I think went to the USFL out of college. Yeah. And there were a few that maybe had one but not the other, like Pat White come out of West Virginia.

He was 197 pounds, but he was over six foot. So he did not qualify for that. So, yeah, there are a few that, like, yeah, Kyler Murray. Johnny Mansell, he was under six foot, but he was 207 when he came out. So, yeah, there were a few. It's a little body. All right. I know you know these two guys.

You've heard their names. You've watched them play. One is more, like he actually had a decent NFL career in terms of, I mean, he's a backup, but he played for, you know, eight, nine, ten years. The other guy was more a flash on the pan. But I know you've heard of both of them. One was drafted in 2003. The other was drafted in 2000.

So we have to go back a little bit. That's a Chase Daniels out. But he's still in the league, and I'm guessing he was over 200. 2000 and 2003. Ooh, good. Can I get a conference for either of them? So the one that is the more well-known, he's a fourth-round pick in 2003. He played in the Big 12.

The other one, I believe is ACC. Yeah, ECC. He was drafted in 2007-rounder. Let's see. Played in the Big 12. wasn't one of the Texas tech guys. It wouldn't have been like BJ Simons or anybody like that. I'm trying to think of who came out of Oklahoma at that time,

but it wasn't, I don't think it was anybody there. Was it, no, I give up. I can't do it. Yeah, no, it's Seneca Wallace. Seneca Wallace, wow. Iowa State, who, you know, he had a decent career played. Yeah. Seahawks for all those years.

And so he was, he's 5-11 and 3-8s, 196 pounds at the combine that year in 103. So he's one. And then the other, Joe Hamilton coming out to Georgia Tech. Oh, okay, Joe Hamilton makes a lot of sense. Because Joe Hamilton was a fabulous college football player. But obviously, you didn't know if any of it would translate in the NFL. Yeah. And he actually, I think he had a decent like arena career maybe or CFL, I can't remember.

But, yeah, he was a seventh rounder in 2000. 5-10 and a quarter, 192 pounds when he came out. So, yeah, I mean, I went through every single combine sheet dating back to 96, 97, so the last 25 years. And those are only two that I found. It was, you know, it's not a long list, obviously. And so, again, this is the point of this article is to look at, because look, you look around the NFL. The NFL is full of outliers. I mean, look, think about Cooper Cup.

Aaron Donnell. You ran a 462 in the 40-year dash coming from. from an FCF school. Yeah, Aaron Donald. He was six foot and three-fourths inches, uh, 285 pounds. I mean,

you know, just not doesn't fit the profile that you look for. Josh Allen coming from Wyoming, uh, how inaccurate he was. His completion percentage at Wyoming, his final year was like 55% and his numbers against the better competition, Oregon, Nebraska was,

Iowa was terrible. Yeah. Right. So, you know, it's these, these guys all qualify as out. I mean, even throw in Patrick Mahomes.

You know, Texas Tech had never produced, they produced numbers from their quarterbacks on Saturdays, but none of those guys had proven to be anything on Sunday. So, you know, if you look around the NFL, it's full of outliers, guys that are exceptions to the rule. Now, that's not to say that you should just, you know, betting on exceptions to the rules is just a fail-safe strategy here. But I think that, you know, you can look around to some of these outliers and say, do they have other qualities that can make them overcome whatever their outlier is? And to me, Bryce Young, he has that. Even though he's going to come in very, very small, you know,

you focus on the position-specific things that you want a quarterback, accuracy, touch, he's got it. Mental processing, intelligence, vision, definitely has it. Toughness and tangibles, he's got it. Now, does he have to do a better job taking care of himself in terms of not taking those hits and still improvising and still working as magic, but not taking as much contact? Absolutely.

He needs to do a better job of that. But there's a lot of things that say Breach Young can overcome that and be the outlier. So there's a lot of interesting players like that in this article. Peter Skoronski, he's another one. Northwestern left tackle, who should be one of the first offensive linemen drafted, maybe the first. And this was interesting because we just went through this, you know, with Rishon Slater two years ago,

because Risholidder came in at exactly 33-inch arms. And for a lot of teams, 33, that's the absolute bottom. We won't go below 33, and so you just have to hit that 33 mark. Peter Skoronsky's not going to hit 33 inches in terms of length. He might not hit 32 and a half. So can he be the outlier? Because you can look around the NFL, there's not many. I mean, we've had a few guys, you know, like Joe Staley,

was I think 33, just over 33. Zach Martin was under 33. He was 32 and 7-8s, and they moved him to guard. I think Zach Martin could still play tackle, but just not a lot of teams that are willing to invest in shorter armed players. And honestly, watching Scranti over the summer, I was on board with saying he's a guard. Because there were times where the length, you could see it,

it just wasn't, it was an issue holding him back. But watching him this year, he's so much more controlled, so much quicker with everything. Part of it is how I think how smart he is. He understands what his limitations are and he understands what he needs to do to combat that. But

you know, it's something that will always follow him, that lack of length. And so Scranti's in here. Devin A.Cain from A&M. Only being 185 pounds. You know, can he be the C.J. Spiller, the Chris Johnson, guys that were under 200 pounds, but we're still high graphics. Can he be

in that conversation because his speed is so special. So a lot of interesting test cases in this article. It is going to be really interesting. And A chain is a really good one because he's in a non-functional offense right now. Like he's so much productive. Right. He's so much better than what he should be because A chain is elite track speed, but not a quote unquote track guy. Like he has great football instincts, happy to run the ball in between the tackles, great field vision. That's where he's. why he's such a good return man. I just, I hope the right team gets him because I think they'll be able to do some stuff

with him. And he deserves it after just getting pounded this year because he is really Texas A&M's only playmaking option at the moment. And so he's getting hit pretty hard right now. Running track for A&M in the spring, he ran a 10-1-4-100 meters. And to put that number in perspective for people that don't understand how fast that is, To qualify for the 2016 Olympics, you had to run a 10-1-6. And he ran a 10-1-4.

So this guy has just world-class speed. And we've talked about him before on this pod, how, you know, there were questions about, okay, Isaiah Spillers now in the NFL, how would he handle more of a full-time role? He has not looked like he slowed down. He's taken the hits. He's been, you know, their feature back. And he has not slowed down at all. So, I mean, A-Chane has done exactly what scouts have wanted to see in terms of

taking on this new role and proving he could be, you know, he's not a bell cow. He's not going to carry the ball 30 times a game, but give him 20 catches or 20 touches throughout the course of a game and he'll be just fine. Yeah. It's similar running back in that kind of the size is over at Kansas State with Duce Vaugh. Duce Vaugh. I mean, he's listed at 5, 6, 176 pounds. I mean, Duce Lund has a lot of fun to watch, but what do you do.

with that in terms of the size. It's really tough. Well, there was a little guy at Kansas State years and years ago. It turned out to be really great. The NFL, Darren Sprouls. So they're certainly precedent for it. That brings me to the games we're excited to see this week. And that's one I want to see. I want to see Deuce Vaughn against Oklahoma State's defense. And Felix and your D.K. Azama against Oklahoma State's offensive line. And can he get Spencer Sanders on the ground? and maybe this game will have a lot to say about who winds up playing for the Big 12th title, I think. So that'll be a fun one.

You got Florida, Georgia. So you just see some really good athletes on the field in that game. We'll see. This is where Anthony Richardson made his first start last year, and it went, ooh, not good at all. Probably going to be something similar. And you're going to see some of those Georgia weapons. If you want to take a look at Brock Bowers, who's still not draft eligible.

Sorry, guys. I do want to see Brenton Cox in that game for Florida. Brent and Cox has been one of the, I mean, Florida's had an up and down year. Bretton Cox is so interesting because he, if he comes out last year, he might not get drafted because the reviews for the previous coaching staff were not slowing. Too much freelancing. Too much I'm going to, I'm going to go, oh, I see the guy with the ball.

I'm near him and I'm really fast and I'm going to grab him. But my job was to set the edge. Right, exactly. So that's, but that has been correct. But he's playing a lot better this year. Yeah. Yeah. And that's,

a new coaching staff is probably exactly what he needed just to get a fresh start. And he's playing a lot better. But Georgia's got some really good offensive line. Offensive linemen, you know, Roger Jones, left tackle. He's a really good player. So how does Brent Cox do? Because that's really, if Florida is going to have any chance of winning this game, they've got to get pressure on the quarterback.

and really force Georgia to be third and long, and I just, I'm not sure they'll be able to do it, but if they, if they can, it's going to be with guys like Brenton Cox getting pressure on the quarterback. Well, and Florida's like that, Jervon Dexter, who, from a measurable standpoint, is everything you want,

and he'll be playing in some very good interior defensive lineman. I feel like he's done all right this year. You know, last year, it felt like he would kind of disappear frustrated, and it might have been fatigue because they were, just they had to play him so much. They didn't, they couldn't really rotate him. It feels like they've been able to rotate him a little more this year. So when he's on the field, it feels a little more impactful.

But, you know, it's tough. The one thing we got to see from him is just he is often the last guy to move off the defensive line. And it's so frustrating. And it's to your point, I think part of it is fatigue. Because he is, in terms of explosion, that first step, he's probably got the best on that defensive line. but his snap anticipation is not on the same level.

So oftentimes, you know, watching the tape, that Florida defensive line, and all three guys are moving, and Dexter's still not out of his stance yet. And so that's where I want to see him improve throughout the rest of this season. He needs to get better because the talent is just off the charts, but just needs to get better with some of the details of the position. Well, he will be challenged very much this week by Cedric Van Prenger and Tate Ratledge and that group. So excited to see that, excited to see Ohio State and Penn State, some very good players on the field.

We mentioned Zach Harrison. This will be, if he has a big week, I don't know that it's much of a problem for Ohio State. But I will say, Penn State always seems to play them tough and especially in Happy Valley. So that might wind up being the best game of the week. And I can't wait to see Joey Porter Jr., the, the, the, really long corner going up against some of these receivers, especially Marvin Harrison Jr. Just to see, I mean, Joey Porter Jr., 6-2, 200 pounds.

He's got really long arms just to see how he can match up with some of these guys. And I don't know if we're probably not going to see Jackson Smith and Jigpa. After tried to give it a go against Iowa, then he had to get off, leave the field. It's just that nagging hamstring is just really giving a lot of trouble. And it's just one of the things you wonder if it's better. for him to shut it down until he knows for a fact that he's 100%. But I mean, regardless, what we know, Ohio State has the receivers. And this will be, you know, another good test for

CJ Stroud. I mean, Ohio State's been playing a lot at home this year. Tough place to play on the road, a defense that, you know, is got holes, but they're really talented. And, you know, for CJ Stroud, it's just a matter of, okay, shit, no, let's see what you can do. If you can do what you did against Rutgers, what you did against Iowa, now do that against some best. better talent, that's something that scouts want to see from him. Yeah. And the thing is, if you can do that against Iowa, there's a good chance you can do it against just about anybody because Iowa very well coached defense, maybe not the most perfect

athletic specimens, but they are always where they are supposed to be. And so it would be interesting going up against some guys that will be in the NFL. Joey Porter Jr., it's so strange seeing him because, you know, you think of his dad was this big long linebacker. And now he produced this big long corner, but it's not, you, you hear Joey Porter, and you're like, wait, he's supposed to be a little bit bigger than that. But wait, he's very big for his position. Yeah.

I mean, because Joey Porter was so just thick and broad. And, like, I mean, he was, you know, kind of like a tweener defensive on linebacker where, yeah. Steeler's outside linebacker. Exactly. Exactly. Levon Kirkland, those guys. Right.

So. And Joey Porter, Judd. is more lanky and long. And so, yeah, it's a really interesting. But just, I mean, think about the NFL bloodlines when he's going up against Marvin Harrison Jr. And that's just a lot of fun. Oh, it's going to be awesome.

And it's going to be so much fun to watch this weekend. Dane, I cannot wait to get together with you next week and talk about everything we've seen. I'll give you another eyewitness account of Will Levis. And I'll give you one of Hennelper and Jalen Hyatt. And maybe Cedrick Tillman, too. We'll see. I can't wait.

It's going to be a big one for both these quarterbacks to continue that momentum. And, you know, there's money on the line for these guys. So I'll be eager to hear your firsthand account. Maybe bump into a few scouts, see what they see as well. And so it'll be a lot to talk about next movie. Oh, yeah. NFL money and NIL money on the line right now. Let's get it done.

This was the Athletic Football Show.