The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Prospects to Pros: Dane Brugler’s 2023 NFL Draft Top 50 2.0

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Dane Brugler’s midseason rankings are in! He sits down with Andy Staples and NFL.com’s Lance Zierlein to discuss the top 50 prospects in the 2023 NFL Draft. They talk about the QBs, risers and fallers and players who have impressed them the most this season. Follow Andy on Twitter: @Andy_StaplesFollow Dane on Twitter: @dpbruglerFollow Lance on Twitter: @LanceZierleinSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube4:15 QB Will Levis10:19 QBs C.J. Stroud & Bryce Young18:08 QB Hendon Hooker23:34 WR Jalin Hyatt28:42 TE Darnell Washington33:51 Players you may not know on the list/who have risen quickly 45:53 Players who fell off Top 50 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to Prospects to Pros. I am Andy Staples, and I am honored to be joined by the original prospects to pros do. I don't even know if I need to be here. I might have to kind of slide my way out. But of course, Dane Brewer, the athletics NFL draft guru is here. And Lance Zerlion, one of the original co-hosts of this show, you will be reading things by Lance. Lance, I think I estimate I read probably a thousand things that you write a year

because I will read the same draft profile on NFL.com multiple times. So I may read more of you than any other human being on Earth. Well, I appreciate it. Somebody's doing it without trying to keep receipts and use them against me on Twitter. So that's nice. Exactly. Exactly. When you put 500, as Dan will tell you, when you put anything out of

especially if it's free, like on NFL.com, people can go back. There's certain players, I'm like, God, I hope they don't find that one. I hope they don't find that one. No one said anything yet. That's a thing. I mean, normal GMs, they only get graded on the six, seven, eight picks they make every year. We get graded on, you know, the four or five hundred reports that we do. So, you know, it's a much, much tougher thing to do.

I know. I've said this before. You know, let's say we had a hit rate of, of 90%, which would be insane. Opening Indiana NFL does that with a scouting board. Let's say we hit 90%, and let's say the numbers 400 players are writing up. I write close to, I write 500, sometimes a little less, but let's just call it 400. If we hit 90%, that would still be 40 a year.

If we did it for, and we've done it for longer than five years, you do it for five years, now of a sudden you've got 200 players that people could point. You're like, hey, wait a minute, hey, wait a minute. wait a minute. But no, Andy, the fact that you read it is great because I know that Dane does the same thing. When we're putting it out there, we know that it's out there and it's going to stay out there. So being as accurate as possible with, you know, I'll miss evaluations here or there, but I want to be accurate on strengths and weaknesses as much as possible.

And I want to give the most accurate look at who the player is because I know people will be who don't follow the draft or college football from teams when their player is drafted. we see our traffic on NFL.com really spikes the week of the draft because people want to find out who these guys are. So we have to try to tell people who they are. Dane does an incredible job of putting the personality on the page as well. I know Chad Reader does that for us in NFL.com. I do the scouting reports. And it does live there for people to, you know, it's a service for people, not just boning up for the draft, but really, I think after the draft as well. So you find out, hey, who is this guy? I don't know this guy. How's he going to impact the New York Giants?

How's this guy going to impact, you know, the Rams or whoever the case may be? And to do that, my process is different than Dane. One of the reasons I'm coming on so much later is because I wait until I get a big tape batch to start because I want to be able to go multiple games all at once in one day on a player. Like I won't even really start to put down my notes on quarterbacks until later in the year. The end of November is when I will start, in some cases, in December, just because I want all of who you are. And I don't know how Dane feels about things.

I don't know that it's the most efficient way. I've got thoughts on Hooker. I've got thoughts on Bryce, CJ. I mean, I watch football. So I've got thoughts on those guys. But I don't like developing personally a negative filter or a positive filter too early that I can't get away from with things. Things go good or things go bad.

Trying to avoid confirmation bias, which is a very good thing. So, well, let's talk about it. Dane has his top 50 updated coming out this week. And I saw three guys who were in this in person the other day. I was in Knoxville for Kentucky, Tennessee, which did not turn out to be the competitive game that I thought it would be. Tennessee put the clamps on Kentucky pretty early. But I want to talk about Will Levis because I find him very,

very interesting and the more this goes, the more vibes I'm getting that are similar to Daniel Jones, where this is a quarterback who physically has everything you might want, but he is unable to drag his offense to a better place at a lower level. That's what, because the thing that bothered me about Daniel Jones is Duke was, if this guy is a top 10 pick, why is his offense not better?

This is not, and it's, it's not exactly the same thing, but like in the NBA draft, it bothers the hell out of me when the top pick didn't get his team to the NCAA tournament. Because if you're the best player in the draft, you should be able to drag your team to being like the 34th best at large team. So in college football, it's different because it's much more of a team game, you know, you can't have one player just dominate everything. but you should be able to drag your offense into a certain level of functionality if you are that person. And I'm not sure I'm seeing that. We could say Bryce Young in that Texas game. I mean, that's what he did in the fourth quarter. You know, when it mattered the most, he made sure his offense put up points and was able to drag the offense across the finish line, no doubt.

And yeah, with Will Levis, it's tough because like you said, prototypical size, the mobility. the arm strength. It's there. And he has NFL throws on his tape. It's not like he's a complete project. But this is not, we also have to factor in. This isn't a 21-year-old player. He's going to be a 24-year-old rookie during his first training camp. That factors into this as well. The other factors missing his top target from last year. Offensive line is different, new play caller. So there's a lot of moving parts with this Will Levis discussion. And like Daniel Jones, he will have, assuming he accepts an invite to an a game, he will have an opportunity to show out. And that's where Daniel Jones went from a maybe a first rounder to being a top 10 pick at the senior bowl. So we'll see what Will Lovis is

able to do there. But right now with what we have on film, I had a hard time putting Will Levis in my top 20. I just had a tough time doing it. And it's always tough when you rank quarterbacks next to a tight end. You know, like how do you do that? Because obviously one position is in terms of how much it affects the game is so much more impactful. So it's really tough to do that. But with Will Levis, I just have so many questions there. And part of one of those big questions is how much upside is there really? How much better is Will Levis going to be in terms of anticipating windows, seeing things quicker,

getting the ball up, out, and gone against NFL defenses that are going to be much faster than what he's seeing at the college level? So he had a tough time in that Knoxville environment. Neal Stadium is a tough place to play. There's no doubt. So I was down. I'm down on Will Levis and Lance. I'm eager to hear what you have to say about Levis. Yeah, I think the problem for me is that, you know, did some lamb killing early in the year and then he takes on Ole Miss. They've got Mississippi State and, of course, this last week against Tennessee, it just didn't look as good. And he doesn't look like he has command of games as much as I would expect. It's one thing to be out talented. But, you know, I remember watching Jay Cucson. Cutler when he was at Vanderbilt, and Cutler didn't have great talent around.

He made them better. But he elevated the talent around him. You could see Jay's talent stand out. Right now I see a collection of traits, but I don't see the completed skill set. I don't see enough of the flashes against upper level competition. And that was something Jay Cutler did really well. Jay's teams may have been overmatch, but you knew he stood out as a talented athletic quarterback with arm. and there were times you said, you know, I could see him starting for the other team.

At no time could you see, well, Will Levis starting for Tennessee ahead of Hooker. I mean, you just, you couldn't see that in that game. And yet he's been talked about as being a top three to top five player for much of the year. And I know there's been a bunch of buzz on him in the off season, I'm sure Dane heard as well. I'm sure you've heard that as well, Andy. I mean, there's, there's been a, there was a crescendo for him. And now it's in the music world, we call it decrescendo, a decrescendo, a decrescendo. Shindo because after this, after this Tennessee game, it's going to take a little something for

for his buzz to go back up. But let's also, we're doing this in a podcast format and fans will discuss it. But the fact is a team, it may not, that may be a blip on the radar, the Tennessee game. If they're locked in on what he has in terms of his potential and star ability, it's hard to get away from the thought that Josh Allen had this size, this armed talent. And I'm not comparing it to. But when you gave him better wide receivers, bad last season.

Yeah, you gave him better receivers, better pass protection. When you made things more optimal for Josh, he got a lot better. So a lot of teams may subconsciously lean on that and say, well, we don't care how bad he looked against Tennessee. We don't care that he didn't perform up to the standards that prospect pros was worried about. We just love the fact that he has traits. He has arm talent.

He has size. We like his toughness, his ability to run. out of the pocket make things happen. And those are all check marks. Those are good. I still want to see productivity. Bryce Young was bad in a Texas game for three quarters, and it was great in the fourth quarter.

C.J. Stroud wasn't good this last week, and yet when he needed to make throws in a fourth quarter, he made some throws. And I think that, you know, that's ultimately what I want to see. I want to see you rise to the occasion. Yeah, C.J. Stroud, I'm glad you brought him up. I thought he looked great at times against Penn State. the thing that worried me, and this goes back to the Michigan game last year,

is there were times he did not sense pressure at all. Like, a guy coming off the edge free. And it was weird because I was watching him, and then Sean Clifford would get the ball. And we all agree that Sean Clifford's not like an NFL quarterback prospect. But Penn State had basically told Sean Clifford, hey, we're going to slide protection this way. You're going to have to deal with a free rusher coming off one end.

and just deal with it. And he, for the most part, was doing it. Like, he'd duck that guy and then, and then he'd go get out there and make a play. Now, that's a pretty rudimentary offense compared to what you're going to do in the NFL. But, like, with C.J. Stroud, that same guy is coming free, and sometimes he's not even seeing it. In today's NFL, quarterbacks cannot be just passers.

They have to be creators. that to me is one of the reasons I am a little down on C.J. Stroud. When everything's in structure, it looks pretty. I mean, he is a very accurate quarterback. And, you know, it's with both these quarterbacks, you have to separate the talent around him and what he's doing. But when things fall apart, when the throw's not there, when he has to move off his spot, it's just he does not look nearly as comfortable. And in the NFL, you have to be able to make plays outside of structure. and that's what worries me a little bit with C.J. Stroud. He's not a statue. He's got a little bit of mobility, but he's not nearly as comfortable doing that. He has like five scrambles the entire year.

Like he does not, that's not what he wants to do. He wants to be able to keep his eyes downfield, make throws, and that's commendable. But at the same time, that's just not how, I mean, you have to be able to understand what is the best route to take, whether it's with my legs, with my arm. and part of that is pre-snap, part of that is in the moment. And so with Stroud, I still think he's a top-10 pick. I think he's going to be an NFL starter. But I think that there are enough questions there for me that make me worry, okay, is this going to be Jared Goff?

You know, a guy pretty good quarterback. But, you know, when the heat's on, when the pressure's bearing down on them, that's where some of the things get exposed and you start to really worry about it. Yeah. I'm with you on Stroud. I mean, I see some, you know, obviously there's some things. The way he can deliver a deep ball, some of the touch throws he makes. It's funny.

He got a lot better from the Notre Dame game. There was a lot of mistakes, a lot of sticking on wide receiver ones and not recognizing coverage and immediately getting to different reads in his progression. I think he got, I think he's gotten better at that as the season's gone on, a little bit more consistent. He'll throw with some anticipation between. you know, between the hashes. I like seeing that.

There are things I like. But exactly what you pinpointed, Dane, is my biggest concern. And you pinpointed this too, Andy, this has been a problem for me. Zone Reed stuff that they ran with him, there was never a threat that he was going to pull and run. And he's got a front side wide open that he could run forever. And he just has never really been interested in beating people with his feet. And that's part of the NFL today, if you've got it, is being able to do it.

And he's not this super. athlete. I mean, I don't want to say that's who he is. But it does bother me that outside of structure, he doesn't. I think that's the biggest, when you want to compare Bryce, okay, not as big. But when you compare Bryce Young and C.J. Stroud, for me, the problem with backing C.J. Stroud, it really breaks down when you look at the ability outside structure to extend plays and make big plays happen. And Bryce Young coming off the injury was incredible against Tennessee. Time and time again, he made plays with his feet gave himself more time and found and found throws to make to move the chains. And I think that's the biggest problem is if things aren't right for him across the board in the NFL for C.J.

Stroud, I mean, he's got Marvin Harrison running free, Marvin Harrison Jr. running free a lot. And those are easy throws. Those are fun and gun throws like when Spurrier had wide open wide receivers and everyone kind of got fooled by that. just is on a different level when it comes to making plays outside of structure. And C.J. Stroud's kind of a heavy foot guy who doesn't have great pocket feel. And you're right. Clifford did show some pocket feel. He did show some, I think pocket awareness is something you have or you don't have. Right. And it's not something that I think is a big strength for Strout. It doesn't mean you can't be successful, but it does mean that on the next level,

you want things to be a certain way. You can't just go into a game. Look, as much as I don't think Kyler Murray's been a very good NFL quarterback in terms of what expectations are, you already know if things go sideways, he can get himself out of it. I don't take it a big hit. There's no way in hell Kyle is taking a big hit.

He has that spidey sense that'll go off and he's gone. But I mean, he's a totally different quarterback than Stroud. And really, frankly, even Bryce Young to an extent. Are you, Dana, are you ever surprised at Brite? For me, Bryce, young who I like a lot and I know he's not big. But Bryce sometimes is another one of these quarterbacks who looks like sometimes he gets a little too comfortable with it going off schedule like like kind of almost hoping it goes off

schedule. But what the what the big problem I have with them is that he's got opportunities to run and he's he's hesitant to take them. And he doesn't sprint full speed. He's kind of a three quarter runner. He doesn't take off when he sees it. And I get wanting to have the discipline to stay in the pocket. But there are times where it breaks down to, hey, go make a big play.

Go make an explosive play. And I think sometimes he's hesitant to go take off and run. I don't know if you see the same thing because this is now the second year in a row that I'm like, man, go, go, go and go 100%. He is so good at, you know, just understanding everything going on around him that I think he just trusts that and sometimes to a fault. But, you know, he knows, like his internal clock is. is remarkable. His vision to see everything going on around him is outstanding. So even though

he does have to move in front of him. He'll stand in and take a hit to deliver a pass. And that's if he needs to worry about. Right. Exactly. The toughness, absolutely. There's no question about the toughness. But yeah, he needs to protect himself better. And, you know, it's these little subtle moves. It's very crafty. He's very crafty behind the line of scrimmage. in terms of buying every second possible to go make a play. And that's part of what you love about him. The instincts are off the charts. And so it's,

and really that's why he is my top quarterback in this draft. And I think we're going to hear this a lot. If Bryce Young were a little bit bigger, he'd be the clear top quarterback. We're going to hear that a lot the next six months. Well, I mean, I think if you could just get by the fact that he is an outlier in terms of size, you're going to be on board with him being the top quarterback,

with everything he has to offer from the accuracy. the touch, the intangibles, like I said, the instincts, the vision. So he's my number, on my top 50, he's my number three player overall, the top quarterback. And, you know, it's the size of something you worry about from a durability factor. But I'm going to take my chances. I'm going to go with the guy that can process the guy with the poise, the guy that has shown me, he's got a little bit of that magic more so than the guys that haven't shown me that as much. Where did you end up with Hinden Hooker?

I've got him in the 40s. Yeah, I wanted to get him on there. I think he belongs in the top 50 with the way he's played this year. It's just, it's the offense. It's tough. Half field reads, very quarterback friendly. Another guy, you know, just like we talk about with Stroud, having the best receiver in America and Marvin Harrison, you know, Tennessee's got a deep, deep wide receiver depth chart. And he benefits from that.

What sounds like you're describing an Ohio State quarterback? A lot of good wide receivers, half field reads, offense that benefits them. Like, isn't that Justin Fields? Isn't that going to be C.J. Stroud? Isn't that going to be Ohio State quarterbacks? I think that Ohio State would do a little more, because you look at that Tennessee with the wide splits and stretching out the defense. I mean, I think that Ohio State will do a little more full, I mean, based off of pre-snap reads, he knows where he's going, but he can use the whole field.

But I think we've seen that in Ohio State tape, whereas with Tennessee tape with this offense, it really is only strictly half field. And it just, it does make it tough to know, okay, when he's going to be in a more NFL-style offense, which obviously NFL style offense means something completely different than a dead 10 years ago. But you can only fudge it, you know, only so much in the NFL, you know, to make him comfortable with what he did in college. So there is a big projection there with Henan Hooker. And so I like him.

I think there's a lot of things that he does that reminds me Gino Smith when he was coming out of college, which, you know, a year ago, that would seem like a negative. But the way Gino Smith's playing this year, you know, it should be looked at as a, yeah, it should be a positive. So Hendon Hooker is a really talented player, deserves a ton of credit for what he's done. 19 starts for Tennessee the last two years. He's been responsible for 59 touchdowns, three interceptions. Remarkable.

So it deserves credit for that, but still, there are plenty of questions. for his NFL transition. Where did you land on Hooker, Lance? I like him now. I have not taken a look at the, you know, full on all 22 and studied them in depth. So like I said, I want to wait until I get more of the tape. But I watched him some in the summer because I was talking to Cole Kubelick from SEC Network about some of these guys. And we were kind of talking about finding the next quarterback. Like who's going to be the next guy that comes out of nowhere was Kyler. It was to an extent Baker Mayfield.

I mean, they became first picks of the draft. Jared Goff was like that with, you know, Carson Wentz. shooting up, Joe Burrow. This is happening literally every year now, and other than Trevor Lawrence. And so I was trying to find who could be that next guy. So I want to find size. I want to find some arm talent. I want to find some mobility. And Hooker was a guy, and then I had the touchdown interception ratio that was very, very favorable. So these are all big check marks. So I turned on the tape and watched. And I saw some things I liked. And I think he's clearly gotten better this year. He does have Manhatt is playing just tremendous football. The game he had against Alabama was

unbelievable. But I think Hooker is getting better. And I think people are a little bit low on him. I think he's going to shoot up the board. I notice there hasn't been a lot of buying yet. And maybe when I watch the tape, it'll be different. But I think when you see guys who tend to take care of the football, which I do believe he takes care of the football, I think that's part of who he is and not just his offense. When you see somebody who has the toughness as a runner, but also the elusiveness and burst as a runner outside of the pocket, I see a lot of physical tools that I like with Hooker and most importantly, like I said, taking care of the football, man, I do not want to underrate that because I think

that's really important. Andy, you saw him in person. What did you think of the body type? The body type I thought of when I first saw him and saw the run past opportunities that he had and what he was able to do. And once again, this is not a comparison of players because I know everyone's going to slam this, but it was very reminiscent of E.J. Manuel coming out of Florida State where it's like, dude, he's got similar size.

He's kind of an angular body type could run. has a plus arm. I think he's going to be a better player, obviously, the E.J. Manuel. But I feel like on, I feel like on TV, he's got the size that I want him to have. He's a much better runner than Manuel. And I'll say when I went up there this past spring and met him in person for the first time, I was shocked at his size. I did not expect him to be that big.

I remember coming out of high school, they list him like 6-3, 6-4, and 2, maybe 2-10, 2-15. He is, I know Lance, or sorry, Dane, you have a measurement on him at like 6.4 and a half. I'm sorry. He's 6.5. He's got to be. Like, I'll be shocked if he doesn't measure 6.5 at the combine. From the spring, Scouts have 6.033, 221. So.

He's tall. And I know he's wearing cleats the other night when I was Santa near him, but he's, yeah, he feels bigger than that. And he is, he moves very well. Now, I do wonder with the draft, like, how much do they go back to his time at Virginia Tech and say, well, this doesn't match this and then try to reconcile those two things? I think the way that Justin Fuente's career unfolded at Virginia Tech, this was the coach who had Hinden Hooker there, once Hennon Hooker left, I do think that'll help kind of solve those issues. And, you know, people go, okay, Hinden probably getting a fair shake now. So I want to ask you guys about Jalen Hyatt, though, because, Dan, I don't think this is a guy

would have been on your top 50 at the beginning of the season. No. Very much so now. I did a big story on him last week. He was very interesting talking to him because he'll be the first to tell you that he was not the player that he should be this time last year. He was, I don't know if soft is the word for it, but he did not enjoy the hand-to-hand combat that comes with press

coverage. He was not working the way that a player of that level needs to work. And by his account, by his parents' account, by everybody I talked to at Tennessee teammates, coaches, that's completely changed. That completely changed this offseason. He came back essentially as a different person. And it's been amazing to watch the numbers. The numbers seem like video game numbers. So I'm curious from you guys, what is he doing? that makes him so difficult to cover. Well, it helps when Kentucky just decides not to cover him. They put a linebacker on him in the first series.

You know what's coming. You know what is coming. He runs a 4-3. I don't get it. I mean, but look, there are two things that stand out with Jalen Hyatt. First is the speed. I mean, he's going to run in probably the 4-2-9, the 4-3-4 range, somewhere in there. I mean, the guy has blazing speed.

and then the hands. I mean, he does not rely on his body to make these catches. He is using his hands. He trusts his hands, tracks the ball incredibly well. So when you have those two things, that's a good place to start. You know, he's still raw in several areas of the position, especially as an underneath receiver. But when you have those two things, speed and hands,

okay, I can work with that. And Lance, I'll be interested to hear because, you know, you're very familiar with, you know, Will Fuller from his time, in Houston. I think there's some parallels there with a guy with speed. Now, I think, you know, Will Fuller had, you know, there's some questions about some drops when he was coming out of Notre Dame. I think Hyatt's better in that respect.

But I do think that there are some similarities with these two players as maybe not being complete receivers, but they could take the top off. They could be an absolute weapon because that's feed. I think there's a lot of similarities. I mean, body type-wise, the ability, you know, the, the, speed, as you mentioned. He got, Will Fuller actually got better with the Texans with his hands. He got better as a, as a receiver with those hands.

The problem is he's just so oft injured that that's going to, you know, derail his career, basically. But Jalen Hyatt has similar speed. And he's smooth when he's just like Will Fuller. Man, Will Fuller was past year. You didn't realize it because he was such a smooth strider. Hyatt is the same way. And Hyatt made Alabama corners look very, very slow.

I mean, he was really blazing in that one. Five touchdowns. I mean, that's insane against the Nick Sabin team. And when it's happening, there's nothing Alabama could do about it. There were no adjustments. They just were physically outmatched by his size. And as you mentioned, Dane, his ability to catch the ball. I think, you know, he's not going to be a guy that wins a ton of contested catches.

So you want to have them, you want to get them on the move and getting those legs stretched out. But I think he can get in and out of breaks. I don't think he's limited as a route runner. And it's always interesting because he's got 14 touchdowns right now. He's a guy who didn't have, you know, we're talking about somebody who had 226 yards last year and 276 yards the season before. He was, you know, Tillman was going to be the big time wide receiver. And Hyatt was just kind of another guy who was a wide receiver in that core. Now Hyatt has got all the love and Tillman is going to get his love.

I mean, he's got the traits. Well, he's been hurt. Yeah, I mean, he's been hurt all the year. So he was on a pitch count against Tennessee. But interestingly enough, if you watch what they did that first series, they stacked Tillman and Hyatt three plays in a row. They're beating Georgia this week. They're going to beat Georgia this week.

Hot take right there. Yeah, it's hot take right here coming in. And we'll find out how spicy. But I just think with Tillman back now and with what Hyatt brings to the table and Hooker's ability to, you know, to throw the ball or run the football as well. This isn't the same Georgia defense and Georgia team we've seen in a past.

It can't be. It can't be. A, they lost a ton of starters. B, they just lost a Nolan Smith. An outstanding edge player and Nolan Smith. And I feel like I'm not sure Georgia's offense is going to be able to take advantage of some of Tennessee's weaknesses.

So I know we're not doing a college football podcast. No, no. But this is one of these hot runs like Joe Burrow had and the LSU team, and there's some similarities here, and I'm just telling you, I think it's going to be a team of destiny type thing with Tennessee. You've got me very interested now, and I'm glad you brought this up because I do want to talk about this game,

and I want to talk about a player who is on Dane's list, and I was very happy to see him so high on Dane's list. I was surprised to see it. I was watching him Saturday and going, this guy's going to be better in the NFL than he is at Georgia. You tweeted that, didn't you? Did you tweet that or no? Maybe you didn't. I told a lot of people that I know is the number two on the list.

No, no, no. Jalen Carter, I know is going to be great. Listen, I'm from Orlando. He's in a popka blue darder. I know I know all about Jaylon Carter. No, I'm talking about on offense. I'm talking about Darnow Washington. Yeah. Yeah. He is. He is, man. I've never really seen anybody like him. He is the leanest 275 pounder I've ever seen. It's remarkable. He's a monster. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, I mean, and he is such a weapon as a blocker. I mean, he doesn't get nearly the credit. I mean, he is moving guys. It doesn't matter if you're a defensive end, you're a linebacker. You do not want to see number zero coming at you. But, and, you know, look, this guy doesn't even have a touchdown this year. But he still made my top 25 because of just the national. ability and you see him as a budding pass catcher. I mean, he'll have a few drops here or there,

but for the most part, he is, it doesn't matter, he just kind of throw it up to him and he finds a way to come down with it. So he just, just put him at the sticks on third and six and then box people out. Well, and he has a little bit of juice after the catch, too. Like, he is not an easy guy to just bring down. He's not just a possession guy. Oh, there's a play in the Florida game where he basically drags people for, yeah. Over the middle of the field. Yeah. But that's right. he'll be it's like watching jolani woods last year when he got hot with that size and only i think except like a hundred thirty percent size it's like when you're printing and it's like how exactly what aspect ratio and a better and a better blocker and that's something that stands out with georgia they do

a great job of getting buy-in from their blockers i mean john fitzpatrick was one of my favorite tight ends i mean that's when you do enough players you do geeky stuff like get excited about fourth tight ends on Georgia. He got drafted. Yeah, he got drafted because he's a dog. That's how come. Because he's a dog as a runner. And he was wearing Auburn out.

And it was a big part of when we looked at Georgia for the Joe Moore Awards for the best offensive line. I just kept saying, guys, this 84 is nasty. And then I was, wait a minute, this zero's nasty. Wait a minute. Brock will get after it if he needs to. Georgia coaches their guys up to be a plus in a run game. And I think that's one of the things that's really going to stand out for Washington is his ability to, you know, for me, it's going to be that's the first check mark he gets. And I think you mentioned it, Dane.

The second check mark he's going to get is going to be that he is going to eventually become a bigger factor from a past catching standpoint. NFL teams will see the potential there. Yeah. Well, it's just like now is Brock Bowers is. Yeah, exactly. Right. It's just like, you know, last year when, okay, well, why isn't Jordan Davis playing more snaps? Why isn't, you know, all these guys, because they rotate in and out so much.

Well, it's just same thing on offense. They don't have to, you know, it's not like Notre Dame, which their whole offense is fine, 87, throw him the ball. They don't have to do that with number zero. So, I mean, coming into the year, Darnal, Washington was my fourth tight end in my tight end rankings over the summer. So a guy we knew about, but I don't think we knew just how good he was and how much better we think he could be.

So, you know, as I'm stacking my top 50 and I'm trying to figure out, okay, well, you know, I want to get these guys here. And with Washington, he's got to be in there in the top 25 with the impact that he's made. I like that you have a couple of combo tight ends, too. I mean, he's a better blocker than mayor to me in terms of you want to go paint on paint, then he's going to be the guy. Mayor is an interesting player to watch because his ability to, you know, shake tacklers off. He's a physical finisher after the catch. He's not this electric route runner. He's not really a dog in a run game, although he can position you, he's smart and

disciplined in terms of as a move blocker being able to, if you want to go way wide, he's not going to chase you. He's just going to make sure that he cuts inside of you and it has enough room for his running back to get there. But it's kind of fun to see these two tight ends with this size and the ability to play in line is your top two with the way the league has gone to pass catching. I think more and more teams now are saying, wait a minute, if we can get a combination tied in and a dual threat guy

that we can play from the slot in Mayors case out wide in some matchup stuff, at least what Notre Dame will do with them. But then, you know, it's the old, I watched Gary Kubiak's offenses for years here in Houston, and of course, Kyle Shanahan does some of the same things. If you can find two tight ends who are willing to block and can be a factor as past catchers, it makes you so much more difficult to match up.

against and i think that's why these two tight ends are really going to have value for nfl teams dane let's talk about some of the guys on this list that maybe the people who are hardcore college football fans even don't even know you you've got some some fcs guys including one of our favorites we've been trading mugshots of this guy for several months can you tell the folks about about cody from north dakota state yeah cody mok i mean this guy, yeah, he's missing his two front teeth. He's got this long flowing red hair. I mean, he looks like Paul Bunyan, the hockey player. He is a lot of fun. And, you know, the background's great on this guy. He was a former walk-on as a tight end. He's a farm guy, farm boy. You know, he, you know,

his comes up a big family from North Dakota. They put weight on him. He moves to offensive line, which he had never played before. And now he's this really, athletic left tackle and there's a lot to like that. I don't know if he's going to stay at left tackle or tackle in general. He's not the longest player and because of that North Dakota State offense, it's really tough to fully judge him in past protection situations. You know, once we see him at an all-star game, that'll be a big evaluation point. But he's going to be a pro and he's going to be a starter, whether it's at guard or tackle. He's so much fun to watch. He's really athletic. The way he maneuvers, the body control is really impressive.

really smart player tough. He's just, I had to get him in there. And so, yeah, he made my top 50. And I like him a lot more. I mean, think of some of the North Dakota State guys, the offensive linemen that have come in in recent years, like Dylan Radunes a couple years ago. He went, I like 52, 53.

I like him a lot more than I like Dylan Radunes coming out. So, you know, this is a good player. And keep in mind, you know, Andy, we're seeing this every year now. these FCS schools, you'll see in Northern Iowa. So Northern Iowa has produced two starting tackles. Both of those guys gained about 100 pounds while they were at Northern Iowa and Spencer Brown and from last year.

Trevor Penning. Then you look at Central Michigan who had two tackles who were former tight ends who, you know, you had drafted inside of the first, inside of the top 100. I mean, these are all guys who are smaller, but they gain weight, they get bigger. They either transition from tight end or they're just smaller players at FCS says, you know, they've got guys who can eyeball it, I guess,

and say we think you can put more weight on the frame. You know, it's interesting because these are the type of players now that we're seeing more and more success with. We're not seeing as much growth from some of these five-star type of tackles that some of these major Power 5 programs, and yet we're seeing more and more of these smaller school tackles come up and make a difference. And a lot of these guys are tied in transitions.

So it's a matter of, are you tough enough and do you have the size to take on the weight and the strength you need? You have to be an elite athlete to play tackle in the NFL. And that's what I don't think the average fan understands when I say they are probably the best athletes in the league if we're really breaking it down. And who's one of the best of them? Lane Johnson.

What did Lane Johnson play in high school? Quarterback. Taking at Oklahoma as a tight end, put a ton of weight on, and became a super athletic left tackle. Jason Peters, I don't like, Jason Peters was a tight end at Arkansas,

but not really, though. Right. Like he was just a super tackle. You know, he was like a 300-pound tight end at Arkansas. So I guess that really doesn't count. I shouldn't even bring up. bring him up. Well, look, coming into the year, I really thought offensive tackle was going to be

a weak spot in this draft. It just, you know, there weren't a lot of guys to get excited about, especially if you think Skronsky's a guard, Peter Skronsky from Northwestern. But I tell you what, I feel completely different now two months into the season. First, Peter Skronski, I'm keeping him at tackle. I'm going to give him a shot. Yes, he's a complete outlier in terms of the arm length, he's going to be probably under 32 and a half inch arms. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, I know, I know, I know, but. But, he would, he's a complete outlier, but he's so smart. His past sets are so quick. He's so, he's so good that I think he can overcome it. Now, fluid athlete. Yeah, very worse, we're talking about a guy that'll take the Zach Martin route, go inside and be a, a dang good offensive guard for a long time.

but along with Skoronsky, I'm looking at a bunch of these tackles that have shown big time improvement. The Penn State Ohio State game on Saturday, if you want an offensive tackle, that was the game to watch. Olu Foshanoo from Penn State, the biggest riser on this top 50. Didn't make my initial top 50. He had one start to his name coming into the year. And this guy is so good for a 19-year-old. His body control, his understanding of angles, his hands. the core strength for someone that's so young and that just doesn't have the experience for him to play at such a high level.

I mean, Ohio State, they got him maybe once or twice, but it was a win for Olu. So he is a top five player on my top 50, which I did not think was going to be the case coming into the year. But he has played like he has earned that higher ranking. So with Foshenu and then both of Ohio State's tackles, you know, we knew about Paris Johnson coming in. he was making that transition from right guard to left tackle. There was a good chance he was going to be a top 20 pick. He has more than lived up to it. Zero penalties this year, zero sacks allowed.

But then the right tackle, the Juan Jones for the Buckeyes. This guy is so... The largest human in the past. Oh, my gosh. I mean, we thought that the Minnesota kid last year was big. This guy is just as big and probably bigger. Is he as big as Filet? He, okay, he is six, eight and a half.

370 pounds. He's got 89 in an eighth wing. I've never heard of that. Yeah, exactly. No, exactly. It's crazy. 89. He's over 89.

36 and an eight. Well, he wanted to be in the NBA. That's the thing with DeWan Jones is you watch his junior tape. And yeah, once he gets his hands on you, yeah, he's going to mall you and do what he wants. But versus, you know, wide nine rushers that are getting him in space, that's where he's obviously struggled. This year, when he's, he's facing that wide speed, he looks so much more, so much more balanced, the coordination,

the patience, the strike timing. It's, it's, this is a guy that wanted to be in the NBA, who's fully buying in that, hey, football is what I need to be focusing everything on. And we have to remember too, he's 20, he just turned 21 years old. He is a senior, but he just turned 21 years old. So this is a young player. And after watching, now, I think what seeing him against throughout the rest of the year against Michigan and maybe some better opponents, that'll give us a better sense for just where his draft grade should be. But I mean, I couldn't do a top 50 and not include him with the way he has played this year. So Lance, Dane has had some guys that rose fast. I know you haven't got a chance to break down the tape yet, but who this season was not on your radar who now

you are very, very excited to dig into the tape on. Well, I mean, you mentioned them in Jalen Hyatt. I mean, Hyatt is the guy that for me was, was that guy. That was a guy that I was really, really excited about. Flip side of that would be Butte, in terms of a guy who's disappointed me. Tashon Boutte at LSU. Yeah, I was not your, it was not your question. But, oh, that's my next question for Dane.

So there you go. Quentin Johnston from TCU. Boy, he has really played well. and I've seen him have some big games and some big moments. The Big 12, yeah, I understand that Oklahoma is a little bit down in Texas. When you think Texas is back, folks, they're not back. That's just the worst thing that could have come out because it's used against them all the time. But watching TCU play and Max Dugan is kind of putting things together and watching Johnston get loose.

He's been a guy that's really, I'm fascinated about when I sit down and watch all of of his targets when it's time to write him up. That's the guy I'm really excited about because he has really popped at different times during this season, especially in that Oklahoma State game. So I'm excited to sit down and watch him. He's a guy and Jalen Hyatt, two guys for me that were really excited. I'm just going to circle back for a second. I'm not all the way there on Ohio State tackles for me, Dane.

You know, we studied Ohio State a lot because of the Joe Moore Awards. I think there's a lot of work to do for Paris, a lot. lot of technique stuff that needs to get cleaned up. And I'd say the same thing for the Penn State kit. You know, I watched him yesterday. I saw he was on your list. So I took a look at him yesterday and a little bit of more this morning. And it makes sense that he's 19 years old because you can see that here's the three things that stand out. He's a high cut guy with long legs. So sometimes those guys can have some balance issues at time. And it doesn't mean they're, they don't have body control. It just means they have to learn to play on those longer legs. So

for a 19 year old, that really makes sense because he'll grow into his frame and grow into his base. But he's a double underhook puncher, so it kind of shortens up his arms. It makes him a shorter arm player when you use the double underhooks. But he's efficient with his hands. He doesn't seem to get pushed because he has a good core strength, as Dane mentioned. When people get into him first, it's not the end of the road for him. They don't run him back into the quarterback. And I like the fact that he takes, he punches in straight lines. Like he's got a very efficient usage of hands. So for a 19 year old, I think that's great. He's got a great core. As Dane mentioned, a natural base to work with. I do think that the Northwestern player for me is

clearly the most game ready. I mean, there's no question for me about that. And he's another guy who plays longer. I was surprised to hear the arm length on him because I haven't looked into it. yet, but he plays longer than that the same way Rishon Slater did, who's still a tackle, by the way. But he was not, you know, he's sub-33 arms, which is still kind of rare. He was 33 on the dot? Oh, was he 33? Okay, I think his spring numbers that I saw were like 33 and 7-8s or 33 and 5-8s,

but okay, so he was 33, yeah, at Combine. Still not optimal, but it never seemed to be a factor when I watch tapes. I wasn't really that worried about it. sub 32 is going to be a problem for a lot of offensive line coaches. But I just want to find guys who can block. Like I just want to find guys who can get players blocked. He's a fluid athlete, moves well, redirects, mirrors inside moves, hands are sticky. Gets a little wide with his hands in a run game a little bit.

But I was a fan of watching him. I'm really excited to see how the offensive line, how that breaks out this year. There's a lot of talk about quarterbacks. but I'm not quite as hyped on the quarterback crop as I was maybe four weeks ago, five weeks ago. I think there's starting to be some separation of some players. But I do think it's always a good thing for those of us in the draft spaces when there's five to six quarterbacks. It could potentially be future starters who are making some noise. And Hinden Hooker is another guy, Andy.

I mean, Hooker obviously is the guy at the most important position that I'm really, really intrigued. to finish my studies on because, I mean, those are difference makers, quarterbacks. So, Dane, who did you feel certain would be on this list who, when you put it together, you realize, okay, they're not making the top 50 right now? Noah Sewell, the Oregon linebacker. Interesting. Okay.

You know, if I'm drafting a top, or offball linebacker in the top 50, you know, I need a playmaker, and he just hasn't been a playmaker this year. And, you know, I think, you know, there are times where he is, especially when he drops, you know, zone drops, he's not anticipating where the routes are. He's not making some of these plays that you would expect him to make. More open field misses than I expected. He just, he has inconsistent breakdown versus elusive athletes. So more, there are too many, quote unquote, almost tackles. You know, he's overrunning the target or just, just not breaking down.

So, you know, he does a nice job as a blitzer, but not always consistent as a backfield finisher. So, you know, there's things alike. He's powerfully built. You know, he can create knockback at contact. You know, he's a good athlete, but I just, I don't know. I did not see a playmaker off of this year's tape. And again, if I'm going to draft a linebacker that high, I need a playmaker. So he did not make it.

Who else was there? I think that I'm maybe the only one that really surprised me. Garvon Dexter, the defensive tackle from Florida, you know, I thought, you know, you see it in flashes. The guy can be, you know. He's top 100, but I can't imagine. He's top 100 because of the physical traits, but yeah. Top 50 requires some performance and it hasn't really. You take his five best plays.

Oh, this is the next Chris Jones, you know, like it gets you excited, but then you take the full body of work and you're like, I don't know. That's tough. So, yeah, I had to leave him off. You know, and there were a couple close calls. You know, I didn't know, like Kisham Boutet from LSU who Lance brought up. That was, I don't know what to do with him. He is, in five years, he could be an NFL starter pushing for Pro Bowls or he could be sitting at home out of the league. Neither would surprise me.

He has the talent. There's no doubt, but, you know, there's way too many focus drops on his tape. He might be a slot only guy. That's where he does his best work. So, you know, Kachan Boutte is really tough to figure out. You know, I think that, you know, Andre Carter from Army, you know, he's going to be Army's first top 75 picks since like 1947. You know, he's shown a lot of promise as a pass rusher. But this year, the production is not nearly what it's been.

And it's, he's got to figure out how to handle multiple blockers. You know, he has to figure out, okay, defenses or offenses know who I am. They're going to game plan to stop me. and he can't really, he hasn't figured out how to combat that just yet. And so that's something to watch with Andre Carter.

And he's missed a few games as well this year. So gentlemen, you're going to get to see K. Sean Boutte against the Alabama secondary on Saturday. That should be very educational and informative. But Lance has already given us the pick of the year. He's taking the balls.

Now, I like him over the, I mean, I had him over on my radio show. I had him over Alabama. They were like a nine and a half point dog at home, which to me was insane. And I think this number is very, I think the bookmakers have this number about where it should be. They opened at 11.5, but as we are recording this, it's dropped to 8.5.

Yeah. That's where I saw it at 11.5 is too high for me. I just think strengths on strengths, weakness on weakness. And I can't get that LSU trajectory of, you know, slow buy in on Joe Burrow, slow. buying on LSU and all of a sudden before you know it's like oh my gosh they're you know they're beating Alabama in Alabama and you realize oh wait a minute this is a real thing I need to start there are there are actual answers against this offense and that's we'll find out this week because that's what they made Alabama look like if Georgia can't find answers to this offense guess what nobody will

because I don't think they'll score with them the same way it is funny that Tennessee scored 44 against Kentucky and their points per game actually dropped uh so That tells you a lot right there. Andy, I want to hear from you. I'm looking at this top 50. What were the surprises for you? What, you know, we've been talking about these guys the last two months. You know, you've got obviously, you know, you're watching these guys very closely.

Did you have any surprises or any of the rankings, any of the names surprise you? You have two backs in your top 21, which I, but I'm okay with that. You're going to go analytics Twitter on us? No, I understand. Here's my thing about running backs and drafting them and all that. If you have a special back, draft him high, just don't pay him a second contract. Because they are literally going through a car crash every play. Physically, that's what's happening to them.

It's such a failure rate to draft high and then pay second contract. But I look at the skill sets of Bejohn Robinson and Jemir Gibbs, and I'm like, yep. Do it. Do it because you can do so many things with these guys. You're seeing Travis E.TN's success in Jacksonville. He may be the better player they drafted out of Clemson in the first round in that draft. And you got five years with them now. You got five years and the ability to franchise, which is I don't think it's talked about enough. You know, I understand the analytics set when they say don't draft.

Typically, I'm with them until after, unless you have two picks in the first round, which Jacksonville had, as you mentioned. but the other thing that people have to remember is if there's a team that could use an explosive playmaker at running back when you draft them in the first round you have five years of club control then you have franchise potential for two straight years right seven years is all you want most running backs in no yeah you're done with adam and really i think you're done after five in most cases in many cases yeah yeah zeke was a case yeah exactly no one told jerry though yeah right well that and that's you fall in love it's

Like, when your owner is an actual fantasy owner in real life, it's a fantasy owner who has billions of dollars, that's, you're bound to run into these things. One thing I think is exciting for a particular league. And Lance, you're in Texas. So you see this a lot. You got Apuica at number 41. He's the nose from Baylor. Interior defensive linemen from the Big 12 do not get drafted very high. And it's actually become a problem in almost a self-fulfilling prophecy where it's hard to record.

recruit those guys to Big 12 schools because people are like, oh, they're, you know, they're going to be playing against these catch and throw offenses, which they're not anymore. The league's actually become more offensively diverse. But Ica originally an LSU player, Dave Miranda leaves LSU, goes to Baylor. Eka stays at LSU, doesn't like to do new defensive administration or Bo Polini and then goes to Baylor. And I just like the fact that he's showing you can be a dominant interior defensive lineman in the Big 12. It is possible.

I think Ross Blacklock as a second rounder in 2020 was the last decently high interior de-liamint in the Big 12. I think that's great for the league. I think that's very helpful. And also, he's just really fun to watch play. Yeah, you have to, you know, the Big 12 has gone through, as you mentioned, Andy. I mean, if you don't update your preconceived notions of a conference

every three years, you can get left behind a college football. because it's really changed. The SEC is more like what most people think of as the Big 12. Yeah. The SEC is Big 12 eight years ago. Yep. And Dana Holgerson used to be an air raid. You know, Houston's going into the Big 12.

Dana Holgerson, if you haven't updated your Dana Holgerson opinions, remember when he was an air raid guy? They kicked him out of the club. He likes to run it. Oh, yeah. Get tight ends out there. He's completely changed. And yeah, with conferences, you do have to update, you know, because different coaches come in

with different philosophies. And I do think there's some good young coaches in the Big 12 as well. And I think those types of coaches are going to be able to sell some of these portal players on, hey, come on over here. You'll get a better opportunity. You'll start quickly. You know, we've got teams like Oklahoma State, Kansas State, TCU, Baylor. Who knows who's going to win in this conference?

Texas and Oklahoma are going to be leaving soon. So, you know, you'll have a chance to win at a high level, get drafted high. Yeah, I think the Big 12, I thought they were going to be a. dead conference, honestly. Beginning to this year, I thought, man, Texas and Oklahoma are going to leave. I don't know what's going to happen in the Big 12. They're going to be the most fun conference in America when the new teams come. The most interesting, yeah.

Yeah, Cincinnati, UCF, BYU, and Houston all have the potential to be good and be good quickly in the Big 12. Yeah. And it's going to be pretty evenly matched. Yeah. Do you see how much money, by the way, is going to that conference? 2.3 Billy. I was so. I was so wrong.

I was so wrong on what their TV deal was going to be. Me too. After Texas. I was, I said like, I don't know, 400,000. I'll give me 400,000.

Maybe that much. Okay. 2.3 billion though. And I heard this. Dana Holgerson told my radio co-hosts, he's like, Houston is set to make 50 million when they go on there per year. I mean,

just think what that does for all of your college athletics programs. Yeah. That's a big deal. And Brett Your Mark, the new commissioner, did a fantastic job getting that deal. And listen, I'm hearing the PAC 12 may get something similar because you may have Amazon jumping in and bidding there

because they've decided with the success of their NFL broadcast, they do want to get into college football. And the only one left is PAC 12. Back to the Big 12 real quick. There were two big, we had zero Big 12 players drafted the first round last year. I believe Breeze Hall was the first. Yep. He was mid-30s.

This year, I do have two big 12 players in my top 20 right now. So, you know, and one of them being a Texas offensive player, which we haven't said. You've got three. You've got three. Oh, do I? Yeah. Quentin Johnston. B.

B.on Robinson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. But we haven't seen a Texas offensive player drafted first round, I believe, since Vince Young, right? Yes.

I think it's been that long. And so Bijon Robinson. should, I don't, he comes at the number eight. I don't know that he's going to go top 10, just, you know, in terms of value. But I think he's, it's an easy, he's special. Oh, he's so good. I mean, it's an easy thing to say that he belongs in the top 10 of one of the top players, but he already takes a lot of collisions.

I mean, to Andy's point earlier, I mean, he takes a lot of collisions. He's more than willing to take him. He's got phenomenal contact balance. We'll have a lot of time to talk about Bijon Robinson down the road. but man, he is one of those guys that for, yeah, absolutely, for four to five, I think he could end up being now, of course, you know, you got to stay healthy, but I think he could end up being what a lot of people wanted Sequan to be over a five-year run. I think Bejohn could end up doing that.

And I thought Sequan was very special coming out. He's starting to show that this year, frankly. But Bejohn's receiving his ability to keep the ball on track. He's not a big bouncer all the time. And he is so hard to bring down. He's so difficult to bring down. down. That's my favorite thing about a Bijan Robinson run is when he looks like he is caught for a one-yard loss and he turns it into a nine-yard gain. They're incredible to watch.

There are just, there's so many options for him. I mean, he can, he can beat you with his elusiveness. He can beat you with his power. He's got vision. He just has so many escapes. Now, see, he's not the type of athlete that Seekwon is, but he has, you know, there's a lot of things that you point to and say, okay, yeah, that's going to translate, the balance, the vision. I think a lot of the things that we said about Zeeke coming out of Ohio State will be saying about Bijon. And with Jamar Gibbs, he's he is such a fun athlete, but he's 200 pounds. And that's my hang up with him is, okay, you know, maybe he'll be 205, 207 at the Combine, who knows. But I just, I found it hard to do a top 25, top 30 without including Gibbs in there with the dynamic weapon that he is as a runner and a receiver.

It's just, he belongs there. especially the way offenses are going now. You want your Travis E.T.N. You're Clyde Edwards-Alaire. Christian McCaffrey, you're seeing doing everything for the 49 years now. So, I mean, that's exactly what you want. So I can't wait to see this. I really can't wait to see if Lance is right about the Tennessee, Georgia game.

That is the most recent game of the century, and it is going to be a blast to watch. Guys, thank you so much. and I cannot wait to reconvene next week and we will either be celebrating Lance or Hey, it's easy when you got you're picking a team eight They weren't supposed to win anyway

I didn't know that there was going to be This is going to be so loud in the stadium at 2.30. Oh, it was in Athens? Oh, never mind. Oh, I thought it was neutral field. Listen, Privet hedges are not a native species. It's actually an invasive species and the vols just can't play with invasive species surrounding him.

Guys, thank you so much. We'll talk to you next week. This was the Athletic Football Show.