The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Prospects to Pros: Difficult prospects to project in the 2023 NFL Draft

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

What prospects in the 2023 NFL Draft have been the most difficult to evaluate? PFF’s Mike Renner joins Andy Staples and Dane Brugler to talk about the players they have had a hard time projecting. They discuss the tape, testing, age, injury, change of position and more factors that all come into play.Follow Andy on Twitter: @Andy_StaplesFollow Dane on Twitter: @dpbruglerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube1:34 Quentin Johnston6:39 Jalin Hyatt9:45 Andre Carter II13:24 Mike Morris15:26 Jaxon Smith-Njigba19:17 Cody Mauch20:32 Israel Abanikanda25:23 Marte Mapu28:06 Adetomiwa Adebawore30:26 Gervon Dexter33:53 Kenny McIntosh & Keaton Mitchell36:02 Noah Sewell37:22 Bryan Bresee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to prospects to pros as we barrel toward the NFL draft, only about three weeks to go. Dane Bruegler is back, and we're joined by the devastatingly handsome Mike Brenner of pro football focus. And we have a very interesting topic this week because this is one that just drives guys like Dane and Mike crazy. It's the people who are just tough evals, either they're producing. production doesn't match their traits. Their traits don't match their production or they're just a straight-up tweener where for size or speed reasons or whatever, they don't fit some obvious position in the NFL.

So, guys, Dana, you've been working through The Beast. You've got every name in this draft floating in your head. Mike, you got to do the same thing at PFF. Who are some of the guys that every time you pull up their tape? you're like, huh, what do I do with this one? Mike, why don't you kick it off with a guy that really stands out for you? To me, I'm going to just like throw a few names out here because to me the wide receiver class is one where there are a few guys that I cannot make heads or tails up. And one, I'll start right at the top is Quentin Johnson.

I think the TCU wide receiver, I will watch reps of him and just be in awe of what a man, you know, nearly six three, two hundred, ten-ish pounds can do from just a, you know, explosiveness standpoint. I think he's unique in that regard. And then you'll watch him alligator arm one over the middle and you'll watch him get body to the sideline. You're just like, how, like, what's that going to look like once he gets to the NFL? So he's the one that just, I go back and forth on because the high end is higher than anyone else's in the class, in my opinion.

Like the high end reps are just like special unique reps. And like you saw it against NFL competition, too. Julius Brent's the Cannes State Corner. I mean, he put him on the dirt one play for a big touchdown in that game and left him flying by in a couple of comeback routes that just not a lot of guys that size are capable of. But then also he doesn't play to that size. So he's one where I don't know what it's going to look like two or three years down the road. I know a lot of people have brought up Kevin White as like the comp for him. I wasn't scouting this deep when Kevin White came out.

Obviously, when you get a guy who's an all-time draft bus as your comp, that's going to be a little scary. That's a good point. And that Big 12 championship game that you brought up with TCU and Caj State, that's also not to veer off course too much, but that's what's having me stuck on Julius Brent's because he was, that was not a good game for him. I mean, he was all over the place.

But no, yeah, to your point with Quentin Johnston, the jumps were amazing at the combine. And then at his pro day at 6-3-212, His 240s were both in the low 4-5s. His 3-comer was 7-1. That's not good. You look at the receivers in the NFL, even the bigger guys. They're a lot better than that.

The short shuttle was 4-2-8. So the testing was not what I think we expected at Quentin Johnston. And I feel like so much of the hype and the oxygen that's been talked about with Quentin Johnson's been all about the testing. And yeah, the jumps were great, but everything else was pretty average, which for a guy that is, you're betting on the traits, you know, you're betting on what he's going to look like in two years. That makes it tough. And so I know for me, he was kind of on the borderline of being a first round pick. Where does he in your guys' rankings? I had a wide receiver one prior to the testing. So after this, after the 40 and the three cone, I think he's going to be dropping. But I, again, saying this because I don't know where too at this point yeah that's that's a good point yeah where

where do you drop them how much do you drop them you know how does that change your your forecast uh that that that's that's a good one that makes it tough um and and i don't know i made it Andy what's what's your opinion on quitt johnston i i like him a lot because he was one of the like i know tc u had some other weapons and and kindre miller in the run game and amari de mercato were very effective in the run game. But Quentin Johnson was their primary offensive threat. And it felt like for the most part, he produced, even though defenses were very keyed up to stop him. But there was something you were saying, Mike, that got me thinking, like, what are some of the red flags? Because this is, this is where I get messed up as someone who's focused mostly on college football is

oftentimes I'm not accounting for the jump in competition, the fact that there are no weak links that you can really pick on in the NFL versus college football. And you're talking about evaluating Quentin's tape, and you see some of that. You see some of those reps where against the level of competition he's going to face, if you do that, it's going to be bad, bad, bad. Yeah, and the thing about wide receiver compared to maybe other positions is that,

that I don't think necessarily high end and like impressive reps are what lead to production at the next level. Like it's consistent. You have to be on it every single play. There are certain positions where you can buy the high end and then the guy's going to develop into that. You can teach that consistency, maybe like defensive line being one of them. But I'm not sure that's one with wide receiver where if a guy just flashes at times, I'm not certain that means he's going to be able to do it necessarily all the time. And then it might speak to why he doesn't do it all the time.

those athletic limitations of maybe he isn't as fast as we thought. Maybe he can't turn as well as maybe we had hope. So I do think there's all those things that go in to making me less just certain about what I'm going to get at the next level. And I'm very, I mean, you know, we don't want a helmet scout. You don't want to generalize. But, you know, the track record of Big 12 receivers has not been great. And that plays into the conversation as well in terms of,

the competition you're facing, the defenses, the corner play. So, yeah, that's definitely part of this as well. What other receivers did you have? I also had Jalen Hyatt was the other one, Tennessee wide receiver. For a lot of, I don't want to say similar reasons, but like he has things on his tape that we just don't know what it's going to look like. You know, he was a slot wide receiver in an offense that teams had to play differently than every other offense college football, any other offense in the NFL.

It's just Josh Hype, but what they run is unique in that. you're not getting up and pressed at the line of scrimmage. Half of his plays, he's not even running routes, you know. He's running either clearouts or not running all together. And then he's just a lot of free releases to off defenders that he blew by. And so that's a role that quite frankly, which doesn't exist at the NFL level. And so when you see that, like the athletic tools are awesome.

The ball tracking is awesome. And that's something that speed wide receivers a lot. A lot of the times those guys have bricks for hands. a lot of times those guys can't find the football down the field. That's not a question with Jaylon Hyatt, in my opinion. But then it's the rest that is a question. It's like that's good, but there are guys that can do at the NFL level that can't see a three deep because that's all they can do.

You still have to run around, still have to get open. You still have to be able to wear a lot of hats to, you know, play an NFL offense in today. So I do just think that all the stuff we haven't seen from him on tape is stuff that, like, does matter and that he will be doing at the NFL level and just don't know how. he'll fear when that happens. And that's a great point because I think, yeah, what he does best, the two things that he does best is the vertical speed and the ball tracking. And so if you can do those two things at a high, high level, that's obviously something

that's going to carry over to the NFL and you could be a weapon. But to your point, you know, the other stuff in terms of getting on the field and being a more complete receiver, so much will depend on where he goes, the offense, what they ask him to do. Now, his testing was a little bit better. his three cone was 706, which is a good, a solid time for him. Not good time, but a solid time. And, you know, to talk about that offense where, you know, it's the Cory Coleman's of the world.

You know, we've talked at length about Head and Hooker and how that's going to translate and all that. There's a level of uncertainty just because of that offense. So I don't know. I want to believe in Jalen Hyatt. I mean, I do believe in J.L. Hyatt, but I do think your concerns are warranted. Well, and as somebody texted me over the weekend, you're not going to get mashed up against DeMarco Helms that many times in the NFL.

And that's not a shot at DeMarco Helms, who's a good safety at Alabama, but he's not supposed to be covering the fastest player on the field one-on-one, who has a free release, who has a running start. Like, that's not supposed to happen. And, yeah, you're going to take advantage. of that if you're the receiver. So you're right. That doesn't necessarily exist in the NFL.

That type of offense. There's a lot of reasons why that offense wouldn't work in the NFL. So it's very interesting. Dane, who have you got? Who's on your list of guys that were just tough evals? So a guy that I know you guys are high on at PFF, Mike, Andre Carter, who is, you know, it's a evaluation that requires a lot of context with, you know, his, his body type and the strength development and all that. But he ran a 4-9 at his pro day in the 40-yard dash.

Now, his 3-com was good. It was under 7 seconds. But what do you do with a 4-9 from a guy that you did not expect a 4-9 from at that position? That's one that I was actually literally just. talking about him earlier today with Sam Watson at PFF, just being like, I don't know. It's unique in just the annals of

modern football history, where a guy's coming out of a school, you know, like an army, where a good portion of the year, couple two or three months out of the year, you literally can't train. You can't train the way NFL players, even college football players,

like the way that you're supposed to. And he sticks out like a sore thumb with his body type. Like at the senior ball, he was the only guy who you literally couldn't see his bicep. You know, like there's O lineman with better definition than this dude. He's just not put together the way an NFL edge rusher is put together or even close to. But on tape, it's like the things that are difficult to coach kind of like the hand coordination, the bend that the three cone speaks to, it's there.

And the length as well at that size, it's kind of a unique combination. but he's just so far behind the eight ball physically that I almost want my strength and conditioning coach to do the eval on him instead of myself and just be like, you know, what can this guy, what can you put on this guy? You know, send him through a workout. What can what can we do from a strength perspective to overhaul his body? Because if you tell of me, he's, you know, gets that 4-9 to a 4-7 and he puts on 10 pounds of muscle, all of a sudden we're talking about, you know, a guy who's got legit NFL tools, but he can't see a field tomorrow. So it's a weird eval that truthfully, I've soured on them more, you know, from whether it was from this, even just this past year's tape when he, from 2021, 2022, did not look any improved physically to the senior bowl to now his testing. There's just, he's too big of a risk to touch anywhere highly in this draft. Well, Lance and I talked about this last week,

the technology that these teams use with guys like that. How much do you have to trust that technology, like the scan that tells you how much lean mass a person can carry as you're making that decision? Yeah. No, and that's it. It makes it tough because so much of it is body projection. And that's a good point, Mike, about the strength and condition coach and having him really give his two sense about what the body could look, his body could look like in two years. But, I mean, the timeline is an important part of this, right? So where do you draft a player that, you know, you know you're going to have to redshirt him in year one and you're probably not going to get a ton out of him in year two?

You know, that factors into where you feel comfortable drafting a guy like this. And so all of a sudden, we're talking about him, maybe not going into the top five rounds. So it's that the conversation with Andre Carter is definitely a difficult one. And very unique to what we see with other schools. So that makes it tough. Another defense event who I, the tape was good, not great, but not bad either. Tape was good. Mike Morris at Michigan.

He, so at the Combine, he ran, let me see, 495 at 275, which did not expect. I thought he'd be better than that. And then at his pro day, he re-ran, and he was lighter. and he ran a 508. So ran worse at his pro day than he did the combine. And I think the three cone was a 746, 20 was a 465, the 10 was a 175, not good numbers at a Mike Morris. And so all of a sudden, it's like the tape was, you know, okay, enough that, you know, you think of them as maybe a borderline. Going into the combine, I thought maybe borderline top 100, like maybe he could, you know, with a good workout could go day,

two and then after his workout it's like okay it's you know where on day three is this guy going yeah and i think the important distinction here is michigan legendary strength and conditioning program with the athletes they turn right like they had no shortage of guys blowing up athletic testing in recent years compared to you know army obviously not the same but that that to me is then the word it's he's four years in that program too this isn't early this isn't a third year guy coming out where it's like oh you know maybe i can project out a little more growth it's like no that's probably who he is and And so at a position as traits driven as defensive line, those are the guys that just, I don't want to say you throw them off the board, but that's it. Like, you just don't risk any modicum of serious draft capital because of, because it's, it just flies in the face of what succeeded.

You know, the Michael Bennett's of the world will be the outliers, you know, like, and you're fine with them being the outliers. You're going to trust that the vast history of guys with any serious athletic tools are the ones. you want to target. Mike, I was going through your Twitter feed. You had something interesting. You were talking about Jackson Smith and Jigba and the idea of him being slot only. And you brought up, well, isn't that what Cooper Cup is?

What about the Eval on Smith and Jigba because you have a couple things going? You have his size. You have the way he was using that offense. You also have the fact that he really didn't play last year. Yeah, he's the one that I was going to bring up here a little later. And that just I think I, you know, I've played devil's advocate on both sides here, where it's like,

if you're a slot only, you're all of a sudden, you know, you're taking things off of your plate and that you can do at the NFL level. And so you're fit into an NFL offense, all of a sudden becomes, you know, Cooper Cup is Cooper Cup in Los Angeles because that offense features the slot heavily. There are offenses around the NFL that just don't even like utilize the slot. They use two tight ends or maybe a fullback and they don't even have that in your offense. So all of a sudden, that's, you know, a guy who's not going to work for you. if he is truly a slot only.

But I do think in terms of, you know, once that scheme, and that was like my initial idea, but if you have that scheme, if you have a three wide receiver heavy scheme, all of a sudden, like, you're not going to do better at slot from a prospect perspective, you know, that I've seen in recent years than a Jackson Smith and Jigba there. So if that's part of your scheme, like that guy should be a top 10 player then on your board because he's that good there because that role in that kind of offense is that valuable. still that that just makes him a weird e-val for me on the outside not having a to project you know not having any ideals that I'm looking for any positions I'm looking

for to say oh yeah he's a top 10 player oh no but not for you but for this team yes so it's just he's a weird a value because that's a good good point because and that this works for a lot of prospects about where they would fall on a general board like you know you and I have to do where we're not scouting for a specific scheme or something situation or culture, it's very generalized. And so that does make it difficult, especially with quarterbacks. But a guy like Smith and Jigba, who is very unique in what he does, this is kind of an unfair question. But if he were in last year's class with those receivers that we had, what, six going to the top 25, where would he, where do you think he would have been drafted?

And where would he have ranked in your receiver rankings last year? see to me i think him and like i thought johan dotson was also a slot-wide receiver and like was kind of his skill set i just don't think he was ever going to be you know your pure outside guy and i and comparing the two i would lean towards jackson the smitha so i think he goes where dotson goes was that 16 so the commanders i think that's where you would probably have seen him come off the board but it's tough because obviously dotson's faster you know maybe they thought of him maybe they didn't think of him as a slot guy Maybe they thought him as an outside guy because that is where he played more at Penn State. So that's where I probably would have seen him go, but he may have gone, you know, after even Traylin Berks because of just, again, fit being everything for a guy like Jackson, Michigan.

Yeah, and that's a good. I mean, I was right there with Dotson. I would lean towards Dotson myself just because he has the speed along with the ball skills and the route running. But, yeah, I think right there is kind of where you're, you know, behind the other two Ohio State receivers, behind Drake London. Jameson Williams. There's a little more there than with Smith and Jigba, who's a really good player. And that's what, anytime you talk about Smith and Jigba, it's, you know, I feel like I have to, like always mention, hey, he's really good. Like, he's still really like him. You know, it's just, I'm not trying to sound like I'm being negative about him, but, you know, it's just, he's, he's a little bit of a difficult e-val there. I, all right, I feel like I don't want to sound too negative. So I, I just going through my notes.

Did you, Mike, did you see what Cody Mock, what his three cone was at his pro day? I did not. What was it? A 7-1-2. I, moving. Maybe he needs to move back to Tide End, because that's, I mean, that's one of the best best three-con times I've ever seen from a 300-pounder. I mean, that's, that's elite, elite three-con time at his pro day.

That's, sorry. And not to get off topic, but I'm just going through my notes and that popped. That's an amazing time. was the same range, right? And Linderbos was, yeah, 7-1-3. Yeah, yeah, he was 7-1-3, so right there. To me, one of my favorite fits in draft, Mock to the Falcons, second round, if he's there.

I mean, like that offense, he's just the missing piece, right? He's the one left guard that they really don't have that can just fly, you know, to the second level. That would be too perfect. Yeah, no, I like that a lot. That makes sense. Now, he has to get used to play in guard. We saw at the senior bowl.

he was trying to adjust that after playing tackle in college. But he certainly seems like the kind of athlete who can figure that out. Yeah, I think so. It's a unique skill set. Definitely. The body type's unique. Everything's unique about that guy. I want to get your take on a running back, who I struggle with.

And I knew who's going to test well, so I wasn't surprised when our pit running back, Abondi Condo. Yeah, he was right. I knew where we were going as soon as you said test. it well. Yeah. He's a big track guy. He's fast on the field. So I knew the explosiveness was going to be there. That showed up in his testing. 4-4-4 and the 40, 41-inch vert, 10-8 broad. I mean, it shows. I struggle. I don't like him as much as others because I put a real premium on contact balance with running backs. And I feel like he's just, he's lacking in that area. And it just,

it really bothers me when I watch him. And I mean, when he has a lane and he can hit it and he's forget it, he's gone. He's going to, you know, create those difficult angles for defenders. And he can step out of, you know, arm tackles and all that. But in terms of working between the tackles consistently, that's where I think he's just really inconsistent. And so I, you know, he didn't make my top 100. He was right there. He was right there on the cusp.

But I feel like I'm not as high on him because of that one thing that he's missing. where do you stand with Izzy? I think I'm in lockstep with you there. Okay. Because I had him on my list with another running back for opposite reasons. Travis Dye, I don't know if you saw his pro day numbers, but they were an atrocity. But for Abadi Konda, like the way I think I described in the PFF draft guide

is he looks like how when a wide receiver gets the ball looks, trying to run between the tackles. Where it's just there's no kind of, it's not crisp whatsoever. He's very loose in this running style. He's very just uncomphe doesn't look confident. But then he's also, you know, he's 20 years old. Like he's one of the youngest guys in this draft class. I think I also said the draft guy, they're like,

I wish you would have stayed another year and kind of clean that up because the athlete is insane, as you mentioned. The explosiveness is just off the charts for a guy that size. And, you know, there's a reason why speed score is beloved by nerds is because, you know, size and speed at the running back position is very translatable in the NFL. It's a good trait to have. But I guess I always say I disliked him about as much as you can for a guy with that elite size and speed. It just, his tape was, again, like I mentioned, just not quite there.

And he did go down on first contact. The 217 pounds, I thought, you know, watching his tape, you could have convinced me he was 200 with how kind of physical he was as a runner, which that to me, a lot of running is more. about mentality than about pure size once you get to the NFL. Yeah, the lack of yards after contact, it shows on tape, it shows in the numbers. And I know, yeah, that's a real, that's a real issue for me. And so his, where he lands in the draft is going to be interesting. That strikes me as maybe the biggest red flag for a back because the hole's close so quickly in the NFL.

If you go down in first contact, you're not gaining any. yards. You just aren't. So that seems like an easy thing. But Mike, you just, you brought up age. And we always talk about old quarterbacks. I feel like that's the, that's how the topic comes up. But how do you factor in age in some of these other positions when you got a 20 year old or or or a 24 year old? I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying with Andre Carter in that. I don't want to say it's an excuse. But like you can, if you're 20, you can expect improvement. If you're, you know, physical, technical, whatever, there's probably just a little more that you can expect, right,

than a guy who's 22, 23, 24. And like when you're in that range, they're finished products, right? Like, you don't expect an NFL player, most NFL players year, three, your four is when they're 24, 25. You don't, that's it, right? Those guys are done. So I think that's kind of how I, of, approach age is that it's obviously a case by case basis, but you, you expect just a little

bump more. So if, you know, all else being equal, shall we say, you're going to go for the younger guy because you can expect a little more just development. Like you mentioned Travis die. He, he was 478 in the 40, 27, Virt, 811 broad. Just, yeah, not good numbers at all. And he's tough because he's coming off the injury. So, you know, time to train. Just, you know, is he really 100% healthy, probably not. So, you know, it's that, and that brings me to a couple other different players where you have to factor in injuries and maybe you don't have testing data. And one guy that really stands out for me who I like a lot, Marte Mapu from Sacramento

State, who, and he's even more difficult because he's a FCS guy, right? So we don't, you know, he did really well, NFLPA did really well at the Senior Bowl. but not and then he had a peck injury while he was training for the, he wasn't invited to the combine, so just doing his draft training. So no, we're not going to have any testing data for for Mapu pre-draft. And for, and it's one thing if you're talking about an SEC player, it's a better idea, you get a better idea of his speed and how he matches up, but not have, talking about an FCS player, that makes it a little more difficult.

I think this is a, if he was healthy and able to test and test, and tests like we think he's capable, I think he goes top 100. Now, because of not having that pre-testing data, that he could still go top 100, but I don't feel as confident about it because of the injury and not having that testing data as a, I don't want to say a crutch,

but just as a way to confirm what you think you see from an FCS player. Yeah, injuries are probably the most difficult thing for you and I on the outside. to really deal with, right? We don't have any of their medicals. We don't have any inside access. We don't have any doctors by our side being like, hey, you know, here's the recovery.

Here's what we can get. Like, all you're doing is kind of guessing from the outside of what you can best hope or what you've heard. So it's tough. But MAPU's interesting also because I think he plays linebacker in the NFL, right? Like he was a safety at SAC State. So you're adding in a lot of different stuff. But he very well could be like a FOIA-A Lewican, right?

Aliquan was a safety at Yale and then drops out a linebacker because kind of speaks to what we spoke about with the running backs. I think mentality is more important for being undersized than actual maybe, you know, pure weight number. And I think he has the mentality of a guy who can play linebacker. So, yeah, I really like to. And Mapu shifted down to linebacker from safety during his career at Sacramento State. So that's, that's hard too. Like how do you guys, when you have a player who maybe doesn't have a lot of tape at the position he's going to play.

This goes back to Cody Mock. You know, Cody Mock's got a bunch of tape at right tackle. But that's probably not the position he's playing the NFL. So how do you deal with that? Yeah, no. And that's, there's several of these players this year with, you have to make a projection. And you have to figure out, okay, he did this in college,

but okay, if we shift him here, how is he going to look different? And that's where I think the All-Star games really help with being able to see a Cody Mock move from left-tax. inside the guard or even the center. You know, it's really helpful. Or another guy I wanted to talk about, Adabawaray from Northwestern,

being able to, you know, move inside. And I, Mike, what was your grade on Adabawari, January 1? I had a man as probably like the 60th player on the BFF board. Like, I still liked his tape to a degree. But it was more because, like, you could see the athletic tools on his tape sometimes. It was not because,

he was an uber productive player by the means right so are you projecting him more as a three technique or as an end yeah 100% i don't think you're playing edge at that side i know we could obviously with the skill set i think his versatility is obviously interesting but i think a three tech is where that's going to shine right yeah no i agree and he can he can move i just i like the idea of him shooting gas yes because you get you get something like that in the backfield you got a problem I mean, there's not much you can do as an offense if that guy can shoot a gap. And he was at the Senior Bowl, he was the second fastest defensive lineman behind Kian from Georgia Tech, who we know is fast and he's an edge guy. No, no questions about Adibari's speed.

And, I mean, he's just, he's a total freak. There's no question about it. Now, it would be interesting. he goes. Does he go? Do you think he goes in the first round, Mike? I don't, truthfully. But it's just because you're so far projecting out, right?

I just don't think you will. But, and even if still, like, you're still an undersized DT. Like, the athleticism is great, but he's still probably 10 to 15 pounds away from where most guys would want their T-T's. Right. Also, I would like him in a primarily even front. scheme more, I think, and that does narrow the field. He's so disproportionately long.

That really helps his case, even though he is shorter than you want, doesn't have as much weight on his body as you want. But yeah, I think somewhere mid-second round, I think is probably where we're going to end up hearing his name called. Mike, what's another player you got? All right. Gervon, let's take a good D.T. Gervon Dexter, Florida D.

He is, to me, one of the weirdest prospects in this entire draft class. I've never seen a prospect slower off the ball as consistently as Gervon Dexter. There was actually a play in the Kentucky game where he was left unblocked and doesn't even get to Will Levis, like completely unblocked, doesn't get to Willevis until about three and a half seconds after the snap because he was so late off it, so confused that no one ended up blocking him. and then he all of a sudden then runs the quarterback. I'm just like, the awareness, and I don't know if that gets fixed, and I don't know why it was so just egregiously not good on tape, but then the freakish tools are like,

that's how you put together a DT besides kind of short arms besides. I was at his pro day last week, and he actually talked about that. He's like, I know my get off needs work. And I'm like, brother, you are as the understatement of the century, but everything else looks pretty amazing. And that's the thing. Like there's a play against Alabama from the 2021 season where it's a stack and shed. And it's like clinic tape.

And you're like, this is against Alabama. This looks amazing. But Mike, the play you brought up, there's so much of that. The other thing with him, you also have taken into account, he's playing a lot of snaps for a 300 plus pound guy. It felt to me like as games went on, he wore out. And I don't think he's going to have to play that many snows. snaps in the NFL. But the get-off thing, like, that's not, it's not a fatigue thing. You're seeing

that at the beginning of games, too. So it's a weird, weird email. You have to wonder how much of it is, because he's kind of late to football, you know, being a basketball guy, and, you know, how much of it can you develop? How much better at it can he get? Is it strictly just a, processing thing? Is it, you know, he just needs to be clued in on, you know, what the correct key is. I mean, it's just obviously ball movement, but I mean, I don't know. He's tough. Because I do think, I do like Dexter. I think he's, you know, a borderline top 50 type of guy because there's so much more ability in that body that we just haven't seen yet. But I think, you know, those concerns are definitely warranted.

I will say, I think Rishon Gary had a similar problem and truthfully, like, still does in the NFL. And it just doesn't matter because he's, you know, he's so freaky. And I think, Dexter could very easily end up falling into that camp where it's like, I think it's a little more important the closer you get to the ball to get off the line or else you're getting guys on you quicker. But I do think that maybe he's just never going to be a guy who times a snap well, but you're just going to live with it because, you know, he's 6-6, 3, 10 and runs a 4. Yeah, I think with him too, having better players around him may help.

He was a lot of focus except for that play against Kentucky where nobody blocked him. But he had a lot where he's getting doubled because they didn't have a ton of talent around him that scared them. So that's one where you get in the NFL. You may have somebody next to you that scares the opposing offense more than you scare them. And suddenly you've got a one-on-one and things look different. Two running backs who their three times are just really throwing. me off. Kenny McIntosh from Georgia.

He had a 7-6-9-3 cone, just abysmal. I mean, as bad as you could possibly get for a running back. And then Keaton Mitchell, East Carolina Speedster, he was 7-4-0. So, and these guys are straight-line burners, let them use their speed. I mean, McIntosh isn't really a burner, but he's a guy you want getting north-south. Can we just hand it to Cody Mock? Yeah, I'm kidding. But, I mean, those are like not, I mean, they're so far below average that, you know, it really kind of clouds my,

I'm not as confident in their evils as I was before those times. I think the Macintosh number, I think he got either bad advice or he didn't train or something, because he also showed up 216 pounds to his program. Like, if you watch Kenny MacDash at all, he looks 200. He looks like a thin frame for running back to begin with. And I think someone told him, it's like, hey, you've got to get to NFL running back size to be a three down guy. He was 207 at the combine.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, that's just not a good wait for him. To me, he's one of the guys I think I tweeted yesterday. Like, I would, if I'm drafting in, you know, fourth round, he's on the board. I'm taking him and seeing what he can do at wide receiver because the uniqueness of his shake and hands. Like he catches the ball so second nature

about as good as I've ever seen running back. I actually think we tracked him with zero drops his entire college career at Georgia. Like that guy can do that in his sleep. But those numbers were he's not that. I think he needs to shed 15, 20 pounds. It's the problem there.

Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. By the way, so that's the second guy we brought up who's on your list, Mike, of potential position switches. because Tommy at a boroughway was another one. You have Noah Sewell linebacker to edge, which I think is a very interesting one. I just, one is because I don't see a starting enough a linebacker. Just in coverage, the lateral agility,

it's just never going to be there. I just never see him making plays. And he's also not the most, the longest of dudes to really, you know, impact throwing lanes. So you're talking about a one to two down linebacker, short yards linebacker at best. But like the best part of his game is that he approaches blocks with just like he's the bigger dude.

You know, like he is Pena Sewell's brother, right? Like they are, they play the same way, which is at vastly different positions. And that's a skill that I want taking on blocks every play then. You know, I want it for a guy who's going to have to take on blocks. And now arm length's not great, but it's, you know, about the same range as Michael Parsons is, who obviously developed it to a great edge rusher from an offball linebacker in college. not calling him that at all, but just that's where I want those skill sets is off the edge. The size is in the ballpark.

It's not ideal, but it's in the ballpark of where. Just let them do that every play instead of asking them to drop into coverage, which is just obviously not his skill set. No, no, I agree 100%. That makes it in a sense. All right. You have one more to give us, Mike? One more.

Okay. We'll stick at DT. We're talking about a ton of DTs. But Brian Brzee is the one that, we've talked about injuries on this show. He's coming off in ACL. Is that why he didn't, you know, kind of live up to that number one overall recruit hype? There are games, I think, like the North Carolina taped this past year.

And obviously, North Carolina is not the best off the line. But that was at the end of the year, AC championship game. I thought he just dominant. I thought that was what. Well, remember, he was going through a lot of shit. I mean, that's, it's pretty well documented. His younger sister died of cancer this past fall. And that's one with, we're, you wonder.

how much of dealing with life change things for him. Because you mentioned that the ACC championship game, which is now there's been some time past. You've had a chance to kind of get back into your routines and rhythms. And like I, you, you never know how somebody's going to handle something like that.

Yeah. And so like that game is, top 10 type of DT tape. If that was every game, you're talking about him right behind Jalen Carter, in my opinion. But just there's too many. And again, like rightfully so, reasons why he may have been inconsistent on tape. But what to do with that guy is, I'm still high.

I still like would go to bat for him because I think those are valid reasons. And I still think it's there. But ultimately where it comes off the board, I'm curious to see. Well, and that's, we talk all the time about reasons or excuses, you know, with a player. And I lean more towards reasons with Brazil, you know, all the things we mentioned. He also had, he had a strep throat, which, and it caused a kidney infection in September. He was in the hospital in September. He added like 45 pounds in that span.

So, you know, I think all those things considered. And then, yeah, the North Carolina tape, I remember who was I, I can't remember who I was texting. It might have been, it might have been Brandon Thorne about that tape. because Brazzi was looking like the Brazil we saw as a freshman who came in as the number one number one recruit topped all the hype, all that, and lived up to it right away. So I still, I'm with you. I believe he's a top 25 guy in this draft. And, you know, if he falls a little bit, I won't be surprised because of the way the last

two years have gone. But I think someone's going to get pretty good value in the back half of round one. Yeah. Well, this is another example. It is just, think of all the things we've gone through today in terms of what goes into an e-val, whether it's size, its speed. It is some, you know, intangible trait that we can't even define, like going, you know, going down on first contact, that sort of thing. It is, it's amazing how much you have to juggle when you're making this pick. And no matter what the round is, like, it is so much.

So guys, I appreciate the enlightenment. Dane, the Beast is coming. Hopefully Monday. Hopefully. That's the goal. We're finishing it up right now. The final players trying to get all the pro-day data in there. We've got the Clemson guys going today. We've got Devin Wethersman's supposed to run Wednesday this week. I don't, I don't know. I've heard Risper's he's not going to, but we'll see. And then Joe Tittman on Friday is going to work out. So want to make sure we get those workouts in the draft guides. So, yeah, people need to look for that.

And then PFF, you got your draft guide's already out, right? Draft guide's out. No, we're near as many players. But we got some fancy charts and stuff. So if you want to go check it out, it's on pfd.com. Awesome. Mike Renner, thank you so much for joining us. Dane, get back to work.

On it. We'll talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show. Thank you.