The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Prospects to Pros: Observations & analysis from the Senior Bowl

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Andy Staples, Dane Brugler and NFL.com analyst Lance Zierlein break down their observations from the Senior Bowl practices in Mobile. They talk about each position group, who has stood out, their favorite player to watch and much more. Follow Andy on Twitter: @Andy_StaplesFollow Dane on Twitter: @dpbruglerFollow Lance on Twitter: @LanceZierleinSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube1:28 Players who have stood out3:45 The highest drafted player from the Senior Bowl will be ….5:46 OT Dawand Jones8:27 Offensive lineman 16:19 WR Michael Wilson18:17 Cornerbacks and safeties 24:04 Running backs30:29 QB Malik Cunningham 33:17 Stetson Bennett declining offer & arrest43:12 Favorite player to watch Today's episode is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.comHoney: Get PayPal Honey for FREE at joinhoney.com/maysMorgan & Morgan: If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. For more information go to forthepeople.com/mays Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to Prospects to Pros, the show that covers the guys that are about to get drafted, the guys that got drafted in everything in between, and we are heavily focused on the guys that are about to get drafted, because I sit here with the great Dane Brugler of the Athletic, the great Lance Lerline of NFL.com. We are at the Senior Bowl in Mobile. Practice has just ended.

We have watched two days of practice now. We have seen lots of great work. one-on-one O-line D-line battles. We have watched receivers and corners go at it. We have watched some, dare I say, mediocre quarterback play. That's fair. Yeah. And usually what I like to do is first day of practice for quarterbacks, throw it out.

Give these guys a grace period one day. Let them get adjusted to new coaching, new wide receivers, all that. Obviously, new terminology with any new coaches. So today I thought it was a little bit of a little bit of. a better, but still, this is a group of NFL backups. And I think that's pretty evident early on. I'll tell you what, the guy that stood out the most for me, practice one and practice two,

Jaden Reed, Michigan Statewide receiver. It was a nightmare on offense for that Michigan State offense this year. And this year, or to this week, we're seeing that 2021 version of Jaden Reed. I mean, he is winning with speed. And it's not just speed. He's using this subtle hesitation down the field. His hand strength is really impressive for a guy that's,

he's a little slight. He's not the biggest player, but he's surprisingly effective at the catch point, regardless of if it's a contested window or not. So Jaden Reed, I thought,'s been a really nice player this week and someone that's, I think, helping himself. So, Lance, who have you really liked? I think Tank Dell, I mean, speaking of a slide,

he's only 163 pounds, but I mean, does it matter if somebody can't touch you? He's, the separation's been unbelievable. It was like that on tape, too. So he's just, he's so sudden, he's so sudden out against press in his release. He's sudden out of his breaks. He is explosive. So it's not just a suddenness getting in and out of breaks.

There's an explosion level to separate afterwards. He can go deep. He can work, you know, levels one, two, and three. And, you know, he catches it pretty well, too. So I think Tank Dell, you know, the real question is going to be. And Dane knows this. Every year, it seems like there's certain storylines or narratives that develop. And narratives, I mean, it's just, when I say narrative, I don't mean something people run with.

It's factual. Right. And this year, the factual narrative is that there are a bunch of slight receivers. There's just no way around it. A bunch of good receivers who are going to be, you know, on 175, 180 pound range and below. and Tank Dell fits in that category. So how do you value his playmaking versus 163 pound frame? That's going to be the question.

I just interviewed him. He's missed zero games, though, in four years at University of Houston's. Never been hurt. And a big chip on it. He said, I have two chips on my shoulder. And I wanted to say, don't say that out loud because they're going to ding you for that in medicals. They're looking for a reason to doubt you sizewise. The question is how much is those chips weigh?

Yeah, that's right. Put four or five chips on. Just get to 107. Ode up on the chips. Well, yeah, I just thought of a question. Okay, this is, this is, I was thinking about this earlier today. The highest drafted player who is in the senior bowl will be. I will say Osiris Torrance, Florida Guard.

I think he's had an outstanding two days of practice. I did not set that up just because I went to Florida. He's had a good week. I mean, the other name that popped up, you know, Luke Musgrave, I think. you know, this is a stacked tight end group at the top. I know. Is Musgrave your number one or number two tight end, Lance? Musgrave's my number one and then Mayor and then Kincaid,

but they're all basically jammed up together. And it's just what flavor ice cream do you like? I would say, Dane might be right. I also think Musgrave could be number one. I think that there's a chance. You know, I get the feeling some teams and I've got a good grade on them, but I think Will McDonald is going to be a guy that's going to go higher than some people think also and they were just talking to darnel right on the field like you know who's who's

been your iron versus iron you know the iron sharpens iron guy he goes oh will macdonald for sure he's got the nastiest inside spin move uh and he's put it but he can also beat you with speed on the on the outside and you know dane he's gonna the guy's jumped over a car before on video i'm sure you've seen uh he's going to test out of the gym so you take the production you take the testing and then you take what's going to be some pretty good tape and i think he's going to get pushed up too And he's a little tough because he's so slender and I worry about him against a run. So early downs, what exactly is he? But there's no doubt he can get after it.

I mean, he looks more like a small forward on a basketball team than he does like a true defensive end or pass rusher. So is he going to play a linebacker role? But there's no question about the athleticism with Will McDonald's. So, yeah, Torrance has been awesome. I'm really nice job in pass pro, especially climbing, especially in space. And in the team drill especially is where he's really had a chance to shine. But yeah, it's a, you know, of course every year we have seniors drop out, you know, just DeWan Jones. Yeah, that's an interesting story.

He had a great first day. We don't know the whole story just yet. Oh, yes, we do. Do we know the whole story that we can talk about? We know he was very good yesterday at first practice. Today, a little, he's MIA. He's not here. And, you know, there's,

Lance, why don't you take that? Okay, well, let's see. We all watch college basketball. You ever heard of the one and done? We just had a one and done. That's what we had. Well, and that's the thing. Did he tell anybody?

I couldn't remember the player. I know a few years ago there was a guy who completely balled out on the first day. And it was like, okay, I have nothing more to show you. And I've done my part here. Yeah. But DeWan Jones, the freakish measurements first. Like, he was going viral for his, for his, length measurement. He's, I mean, he's, he's supposed to be seven, five, based on his wingspan.

Well, and that's, and, well, here's that thing. I'll just be honest with you. There's some things with DeWan Jones that concern me in terms of redirection, change direction. It didn't really show up yesterday because the way people rushed him. Exactly. In one-on-one, they all try to beat him on the edge. Yeah, Isaiah Foskey, the way he's going, I mean, and he'll, he'll go, he'll try to beat him right down the middle. That's, that's not happening. You're playing right into the hands of DeWan Jones. DeWon Jones's huge, massive hands. He'll, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll go, he'll, he'll snatch you every time. And so based off of, yeah, exactly, that's kind of what I've been saying is like, yeah, you looked good, but how rushers adjusted to him throughout the week was something I really wanted to see. And that was the concern is that all of a sudden, if he had to face it out, he doesn't face off against as many, I think, diverse pass rushers on his side of the bracket. But, you know, had he faced a guy like Will McDonnell with a spin move, it could have looked pretty ugly. But he didn't get a second day and no one really gave him the inside move, which is what gives him trouble. And so, you know, he didn't. And so. So, you know, his agent, I think, probably just said, hey, let's quit while we're ahead.

You got long arms and had a good practice. And I wrote about him yesterday. Oh, so did I. Yeah. Don't you have to at least say, oh, I just, you know, sprained my ankle a little bit. I'm just going to be in street clothes, rest of the, you know, like just a, I don't know. Really curious. Yeah.

I mean, shoot a text. Like, hey, thanks for the opportunity. I had a wonderful time immobile. I had some good fish and grits, the shrimp and grits. And it's been real. And I appreciate the hospitality and thank you for measuring my wingspan. That's how you got to do it, right? Lance, what other offensive linemen had?

Because I feel like coming into this week, a lot of these guys are jam-packed together. You know, the Matthew Bergeron's, the even throw Juania Morris in there, throw, you know, Jalen Duncan. You and I aren't very high on Duncan, but, you know, he's got his fans out there. So of these offensive linemen, who's really stood out for you? Well, I mean, you nailed Torrance. I think Torrance has definitely put himself in the first round for me for sure. You know, I was kind of, you know, my draft grades are in any draft, you know,

so I think in most drafts I would have them in the second round in this draft. I'm going to have to put him in a first. The kid is he's, you know, he was well-schooled at Louisiana Lafayette before he even went to. He had Kevin Dotson, Robert Hunt. They were all on the same offensive line at one point. He was a freshman. Well, he had the same coaches at Florida that he had it. Yeah.

And so he has, you know, he has great hand resets. He's something he said he wants to work on. He wants to work on pad level. he's a very conscientious player he didn't have a great body he's he's a heavyset guy he's a little bit heavy but you know for me i thought he was great against jalen carter i thought you watched that game and no one gave jalen carter a tougher time than osiris and that to me is is good a indicator of anything is how you did against jalen carter but then you watch him out here and you can't beat him down the middle he's got a good feel for his edges so he protects his edges he's a good run blocker i do think

you know some of the outside zone stuff will be a challenge for him, but you just don't probably run it a whole lot if you're drafting them. But the guy that to me has really stood out is John Michael Schmitz. And I'll tell you what, he had two blocks where he kind of framed and sealed off the gap. And there were two long, one was Taiji Sharp and the other. Actually, they may have both been Tai Chi Sharp, breaking, Tai Chi Spears, rather, breaking, you know, for the long runs. I think Schmitz has been just terrific.

I think he's my OC-1, and he's another guy. Center slip into the first round. and I think he's going to be the guy to get in. He was kind of a stalwart in Minnesota. He was part of PJ Flex first recruiting class there. And this is a six year guy this year. And just you watch him play out there because this is a place where a lot of guards get tried at center. And actually, in one case, we've got a guy who played tackle in college being tried at center right now.

This is a center playing center. It was very clear watching him. This is a man who knows how to handle. that role. Yeah, and I'll be honest. His senior tape, super senior tape, wasn't as impressive as I expected going in. Because he, you know, he was on the radar last year. If he came out after last year, he was expected to go maybe top 100. And so there's

expectations. And I don't think his senior year necessarily lived up to that, but he's a good player. He's got a really nice resume to work with. And there are times, he's an outstanding run blocker. Sometimes in Pass Pro, he will get a little off-back. balance, but that hasn't happened here. He's done a real nice job. And so I don't know if he makes it the first round, but you're right, Lance. I mean, teams need centers. And so, you know, if you, Joe Tipman, I think is my top center right now. And then John Michael's right behind him. So, and I don't know that I have a true top 100 grade on John Michael, to be honest, but these guys go

early and he's having a nice week, which really helps him. So, oh, go ahead, Lance. Well, I was going to say, I had an executive tell me. me that, you know, based on my point was this is not a very good tackle draft. Like, it's not a great tackle. It's not great. If you need an LT1, the best one's going to be a guard probably with Peter Skoronsky's stuff. And, you know, I like, I'm glad to hear you like Bergeron a little bit because I like Bergeron. I just, I think he's a good run blocker and he needs work in pass pro, but I think some of that will be smoothed out if he moves down to guard. Some of the hand usage won't be as. Yeah, he did play some guard today. And I think that's what

he's built for. But, you know, the one, I think Darnell Wright is another one who I like. And I was having this conversation with a team executive and he said, look, it's not a great tackle, but the state of offensive line is so bad right now, relatively speaking in the NFL that any grade you have on a tackle and really, for the most part, guards and centers, you better be prepared to bump than 15 to 35 spots. And I just, it was jarring to hear. But then when you really think about it logically, it makes sense. Can I ask a darn-no right question? Yeah.

He was not, when he had to play on the left side, that was not great. Right. He was very good on the right side. How much does that change the evaluation? None. So my dad had a guy named Max Starks, who you also know Max Starks. Another big Florida guy. Yeah, and Max is great.

And Max Starks, I've talked to Max about this. You know, Max, my dad, so it's always your thought is, okay, you put the heavy plodder on the right side if you have to, you don't play them on the left side. My dad went to the Super Bowl and won a Super Bowl ring with Max Starks against Arizona. And Starks, you know, he tried to play him on the right side and it just didn't click for Max. But on the left side, even though he was a little slower and heavy-footed, it just was more natural. The steps were more natural.

Everything is, you know, it's like hitting right-handed left-handed. Oh, it's 100% like that because I remember getting to college and being told you line up on the left-side, you're in a left-handed stance. She's lying up on the right-hand stance. And that first time trying that left-handed stance feels the weirdest thing ever. Yeah. Because when you're used to playing out of one stance or on one side, it feels backward and wrong. I think unless you are probably truly ambidextrous. Yeah.

And that was a thing where, you know, my dad told me, Max is the O-line coach. He just said, he said, Max just as much better as a left. And so Darnell just, it probably doesn't feel right to Darnell, but I can tell you it, right tackle. And this is, you know, this is something that you learn with time. You get so caught up and, well, what does his body look like? Well, what does his feet look like? What is he bending? And you start doing a beauty contest for, okay, give me the check.

And I think draft Nix have this issue. And we're all start off as draft Nix, right? And you aspire to really be a really good evaluator. Everyone looks to check off, okay, show me the hands and I want to see the feet and I want to see the balance. And that's all true. You want to see all that. But at some point, what's the end result? Like at some point, yeah, process is important.

but for offensive linemen, are you getting guys blocked? And if there's one guy that should be a poster boy for that, it's Orlando Brown. It didn't look pretty when Orlando Brown did it. The combine was a disaster, relatively speaking. And here he is starting, you know, in the NFL and he's doing a nice job. And so it needs to also be about result, not just process, but result. I covered Orlando Brown's pro day because this is after the disastrous combine. Yeah, the pressure on him.

He did better on the bench. Well, it was also the day that Baker Mayfield had his pro day. He pulls out the karate kid headband. But Orlando that day was very interesting because Orlando is a thoughtful guy. And he's just like, at some point, doesn't it need to be about whether I can block people or not? And sure enough, he's blocking people just fine. Darnell right here this week, I think he's so eager to show off how violent and physical he is that it's looked a little sloppy. It's been hot and cold for him.

but I think scouts really want to see some improved technique and that's what I'll be looking for tomorrow going to last practice from Darnell Wright because he grew on me as a process throughout the season because he's not there's some things that you can nitpick about him but when it comes down to it the foundation of what he does is a really solid place to start Alabama lined up Will Anderson across from him and Will Anderson had one of his worst games yeah he didn't do much at all and and Wright was he was good throughout the

entire year. I thought, you know, deep into the season, you know, even he played in the bowl game. He wasn't opting out. He was a really good battle with, uh, oh, he, he was, he had some nasty stuff going on in the bowl game. Yeah, it was a fun battle. He's a good, darnel's a good finisher. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's no question. You enjoy a good finisher. There's, there's zero questions about that. So no, he's, he's right there in that mix to be a top 50 guy, I think, in this class. One other thing I want to talk about. I mentioned Jane Reed, Michigan Statewide receiver, how how he's looked. Michael Wilson, the Stanford wide receiver. This guy is really, really impressive for his size to move like he's moving. He's been catching everything. The tough part with him is

he's missed more games than he's played the last three years. He had a foot, he broke his foot, and then the day after he was clear, he broke it again. Different part of the draft, but like, in that kind of like a George Pickin's situation? For different reasons. You know, Piggins had a lot going on with Wilson. Yeah. He's, It's trying to figure out, okay, I think we're getting a better feel for the evaluation. Now, what's the valuation in terms of where do you draft him? How good do you feel about him becoming an impact player for you? He's definitely forcing teams to maybe reevaluate a little bit based on how he's played this year.

And so once we get to the combine, the medicals will be absolutely paramount for him. He is to me his comp. Now, I think I stayed away from his cop because the size didn't make sense. but who he is for me is Matt Hollins coming out. He's a great special teams player, too, terrific gunner. And that's something that I have to look for. I look at all the special teams reps because I need to know who those guys are because what it does, it puts a floor on where he'll go.

So I think Wilson's floor now is probably fourth round because he's a great special teams gunner. And he's a guy who has speed. But you mentioned the injuries, you know, that could play a little bit of role. But he's got speed to go vertical. He has some juice on tape and out here you can see it. He's got some juice. He's got some ball skills.

You got to see if he can stay healthy. But worst case scenario, anytime you start saying, okay, well, he's for sure a teams guy for us, that automatically, okay, well, is he good enough to be a backup wide receiver? Yes, he is. Then automatically you end up having a floor of where you can go and then you just hope to build from there. And I think with him being a big time teams guy and everything Danes just talked about, now it's about the medicals and do the medicals check out? Another position group, I feel like we haven't talked about much here is the defensive backs.

Is there a corner or safety who's really stood out in either of the guys? Today it was Cayu Blue Kelly, the Stanford corner. It made some nice plays against some of his former teammates over there at Stanford. So he came into this week as my second senior corner behind only Devin Witherspoon, who's not here, of course. But he's competing with Tyreek Stevenson to be the, I think, the top corner here. Is that match? I was down on him a little bit on tape. I didn't love him, but I would agree with you.

He stood out. The first thing he did was snaggawall one-handed when he is on the sideline and overthrow, and I'm like, whoa, who was that? And I thought it was blue. And then he had another near interception where he was in zone and then, you know, read the quarterback and jumped it and dropped an interception. I thought he looked really good. He's one of those guys that I made a mental note that I need to go back and double-check him.

I thought Jamie Robinson looked really good, too, and one-on-on-ones. I thought he was really, and I know a fan. under your Florida guy. Let me tell you about Jamie Robinson because we had a deal where the Florida State staff invited several media members to call plays during the spring game. And I thought it was going to be one of those jokes where we just kind of stand out there. But they bring us up the day before. They give us a play sheet.

It's obviously a limited menu. Wow. But so I'm calling the defense when we get up in the fourth quarter. and they put some of the better players in. This is Jamie just transferred from South Carolina. And so I call a fire zone blitz. Jamie's my blitzer. First down.

Sack right off the bench. Jamie Robbins is my favorite player in college football because he made me look like the best play caller ever. That's great. He's just small, right? He's 5, 10, and 3 quarters, 194 pounds. Yeah. And for some teams, that's a deal breaker.

Yeah, but not in a slot, though. Right. think a big question is, is he a true nickel? Or, you know, do you need to play him? Is he more of a post? What do you envision for your defense and what you want to do? You know, he's got some dog in him. And that's one of the things I really like is he really is, he's intense, he's competitive. When it gets into contested situations, as you saw today, he just refuses to give you an easy ride. And I like them on tape. I liked them out here, too. I think he was a guy that stood out as well. beloved by Florida State

teammates and coaches is he really yeah he's he's he's one of those guys that everybody sort of rallied around and and that's why it's nice to hear this because I like it when when the guys that the players and the college coaches talk up is their favorites when they shine out here it's a good sign

because I have a feeling they're going to be good productive NFL players too yeah I think you know one of the guys also that I think has been interesting to watch for a different reason and I didn't notice him out here today. I'm sure he was. I just, I must not to see him was it's it's j. It's j.L. Skinner in person. Because he is tall, long, and then you see him from the knees down. And I don't think I've ever

seen a more spindly calves and let like he's got kind of regular thighs with these tiny spindly calves. And I was standing next to a, uh, a pro personnel director. And he kind of asked me a question about him and he said was he hurt all the time and I was like no I don't think he was hurt all the time he goes I mean if he's not hurt and I said do you worry about you know a guy who has small lower bodies he goes well you wonder where the speed comes from but he said but no I mean if he's not hurt and he said is he physical I said yeah he's fiscal he plays in a box and were you playing him yeah I'm probably playing him as a robber and playing him down you know I'm letting him play down yeah yeah that's probably where he's I mean he's not a bad athlete

by any means. No. You know, just he's going to get the... We're going to play in Ford, though. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the way. And there's just not many safeties in the NFL that are legit.

And it's not like, oh, he's getting pumped up on the team website, 6-4. No, he verified 6-4 and a quarter. Huge dude. One other DB I want to talk about that has really, I thought, stood out. Darius Rush, South Carolina Corner. He had a great first day of practice where he was running routes for the receivers. And then today he had another big play. I think it was in teams or maybe 7-107.

That was my favorite tweet of yours off the first day of practice. Darius Rush ran a better route than the receiver he was covering. And I posted the video with it to show like, hey, look, he ran it better in Jonathan Mingo. So, yeah, he's for a guy that's that big, he's almost 6'2, he's got a larger wingspan than a couple of the offensive linemen here. He's just a big dude. But he also has quick feet. He can sink. He can redirect.

There's a lot to like about Darius Rush. He's a former offensive player in high school. You know, one of those guys that was, you know, clearly the best player on the team. So he's playing quarterback. He's doing everything. You know, when you watch South Carolina, obviously you're watching because you want to check out Cam Smith.

You want to see the corner. Darius Rush, man, he's a good player. You know, it's funny. We want to see, we love seeing wide receivers who play D.B. Because they've got ball skills and tracking and stuff like that. And then, of course, a lot of times you're a DB because you don't have great. You have ball skills except for the catching part. And then we also love seeing defensive players turn out of offensive linemen because they're nastier a lot of times.

It's a weird combination where, oh, this guy used to play defensive line and now he's an offensive line. Good. I know he's going to have some nasty to him. Oh, this guy was a high school wide receiver and quarterback. Good. He's going to see the feel better as a defensive back. Yeah, no doubt. I think that the best, maybe, maybe the best position group that I've seen on a team has been the American running backs.

And usually the running backs don't get a chance to shine at these types of all-star events. But Eric Gray, Tai J. Spears, who else on that? Chris Rodriguez and then Kenny McIntosh. Yeah. So those four guys have been outstanding, catching the ball, moving well during team drills. I think running back, it's hard to shine, but it might be the best position group we've seen. Rodriguez is an interesting one because the average six yards of carry behind a pretty good Kentucky offensive line. line in in 2021.

That line was not very good last year. And so you see. And he missed the first month of the season. Right. He was suspended. There's stuff there, but I, the guy has been a productive quality back the entire time. And so that,

you've got to take that into account. I really love McIntosh because yes, you can throw to him out of the backfield. Yes, you can, you know, on third down, there's so much you can do with him. But I thought,

especially at the end of the season, like go back to the Peach Bowl against Ohio State. he was slipping through some holes and it looked good. Yeah. Now, Dane, you and I talked about this while we were watching, you know, because you were talking about him kind of setting up blocks and maybe a heavy zone team, that's not what you're looking for. Maybe you want one that here's the hole, go hit it.

Yeah. He's a point of entry back, I think. You know, if you direct him to where the hole's going to be, he can hit it. He's got quickness. A lot to like there. But when he's asked to create, when the hole's not defined, that's where, you know, things start to find.

fall apart quickly. So yeah, he's not going to be for everybody, but for a team that needs, or could use a pass catching back who, you know, Sony Michelle was kind of the same way, where point of entry back, catches the ball well. I wouldn't take him where the Patriots took Michelle. No, but we're talking about a guy that you're going to consider in the top 100. Yeah. Well, and Sony hit it downhill, I think, a little harder than McIntosh. With everything you said about McIntosh, I totally agree, I forget that Dana and I see players fairly similarly. He does not, and I think this is easy to see on tape. He really doesn't set. But he doesn't have great vision.

He doesn't have great feel. You're right. Andy is not a natural outside zone back where you're a plant and go back. You probably have to be more gap scheme and more defined. And the point of entry backs, this is the concern is if you need a clear point of entry, well, you can find a lot of backs like that. That's nothing special about a guy who runs where there's a clear hole. What special is when a guy has a natural innate feel for the blocking development

and the way that the line. It's all instincts and feel like you either have it or you don't. I don't think McIntosh has it. But there's things I like. There's definitely things I like. But you know, you watch a guy like Tajee Spears and he has that. I thought Roshan Johnson a day one ran a little bit like that too,

which was a little surprising to me. I think Gray has that too. I like Gray. I don't know what you, yeah, I'm a gray guy. He's going to be a steel in the fourth round. We're going to look back and say, man, how do he last that long? It's just there's a lot of quality. running back, especially when you include the underclassmen in this group.

We're going to see a lot of differing rankings. People forget. Gray was a workhorse back at Tennessee as a freshman. It was weird. He goes to Oklahoma and then Kennedy Brooks is the starter. We kind of lost where Gray was. And then this year, he had a chance to shine again. And he's a good player.

So the Senior Bowl in a lot of cases is about trying some stuff you've never tried before, trying positions you've never tried before. We mentioned Cody Mock earlier. He's the North Dakota State offensive lineman. played tackle at Oklahoma State. He's playing guard and center here. I talked to him on Tuesday morning or on a Wednesday morning and I asked him, you know, about the center stuff and he said, listen, I would snap before practice just in case

something went down, you know, we got down to our third, you know, and had to, I had to do it. And, but he'd never done it in a team setting or anything. He was out there doing it. It was interesting because he took a rep at tackle in 101 pass pro. And it was clear how much more comfortable he was. But the question is, can somebody like that who hasn't played that position, can they show enough traits to these coaches and scouts to say, I'm confident you can do that at this level?

I think first and foremost, just the fact that he's attacking it, that's going to earn them points. You know, teams want to see you go try, you know. Oh, he told the coaches, I will punt if you want me to. He, by the way, was his high school kicker in Hankinson, North the country? Cota playing nine-man. He played basically every position. Tight end, defensive end, kicker.

Yeah, he did everything. Let me guess he's all state in three sports. It's the same bio for all those guys. Yeah, may not. Yeah, but no, just the willingness to do whatever that needs done. And so it has not been perfect for him at guard or center. You can tell it's new for him. But you want to see progress and just the willingness to do it.

And so far, I think we've seen that from him. So you can make the switch, but it's not automatic. like there's nothing offensive line people hate more than just assuming the tackle can bump to guard or center. The first thing, there's two things you have to have. There's really three. You got to have pad level, which is something that Mock has to work on. I think pad level can get away from. So you have to have pad level, which means you have to have some knee bend and hip bend.

So you got to have flexibility. You need to have quick hands. And then you have to have a certain level of core strength to withstand the bigger, stronger guys. And usually leverage guys because a lot of times they're going to be 6-2, 6-1 and even 6 feet playing with. leverage. So those are three things you have to have. I would say I saw a rep and pass pro where Mott got beat as a center. They got up under him, pushed him all the way back. The second rep, the offensive line coach, which is why I love being down there. Listen to the correction. He corrected him, talked about pad level. The next rep, he stayed low, like way lower than I would

expect it. I remember the sequence. Yeah. And he stayed up under his guy and he had a great rep the second time. So that showed me, okay, I saw it once. I know it can be done. It's a matter of can he muscle memory this thing into existence? And I think he can. I think, and besides the fact that he's just an Alex Kappa type, right? He is just, he's a tough, nasty. If he's not going to be a center, he's going to be a guard. But my guess is a team's going to, somebody in a room somewhere is going to say guard, center, tackle.

I would say also if you need a tackle. Get us out in a, in a, get us out in an emergency. Yeah. Yeah. So another guy I was watching today. Now, he didn't, didn't practice on Tuesday because he was sick. Malik Cunningham. You talk about it.

Now, he's not trying something different, but this is why I asked. I watched him play all throughout college. He's Louisville's quarterback. He's a special athlete. There was a play. I'm watching. He takes off running, going around the corner. And I'm like, how many of these people are going to ask him if he might switch positions?

Like right here, right now? Because he's not a big guy. I mean, he's under six foot. The tape was very, very, sporadic on him. And let's be honest, Aiden O'Connell should be here, the Purdue quarterback. Right. Why he's not is a mystery.

But I mean, Malik could be here doing something else and could be very interesting. Yeah. I think that's something, and that's what these all-sart games are for. You want to try stuff out. And we know you're a really good athlete. So I remember, you know, Donard Robinson coming down here and, you know, doing some nice things, whether at corner, whether at receiver. And he got drafted as an athlete.

So, yeah, I mean, the more you can do it. If Cunningham wants to be a quarterback only, it's probably not getting drafted. But as an athlete, he's got a show. And this is not like the Lamar Jackson thing. Like any conversation about Lamar playing another position with idiotic. Yeah. This is different. No, this is, listen, there's not going to be three quarterbacks under 200 pounds drafted this year.

We may have two. And Bryce Young and Stetson Bennett. We ain't having three quarterbacks and he's under 200 pounds. And I think, Andy, the thing you get into is exactly, I mean, this is, just the truth. Players, you know, we get so, we get so sensitive to criticisms on social media and, and, you know, concerns about people thinking you're stereotyping or this, that, and the other. And you know what's funny? The players just want to play and go make money and make it in the league. He's a twitchy, sudden athlete. That's what he is. And most humans aren't like that.

I guarantee you his agent would say whatever it takes for you to get in the league, but he's a special runner now. His ability to make you miss. I was blown away. He's a great vision. Great vision. Running back's vision. He has ability to make you. missed. The question becomes, can he catch a pass? If not, can he, like, how do we utilize him? And so when I wrote him up, I wanted to be respectful to his quarterback stuff, he wasn't terrible as a quarterback. When he's in rhythm, he's not bad. He's just, he's not big enough to be a quarterback, and it's not consistent enough. So how do you utilize him? Can he catch it to be a wide receiver? I'd love to find that out

out here, but we're not seeing it yet. Can he be a running back? I, you know, I don't know. He's a gadget guy. You could use him for packages. Zone read. You can put pressure on teams. Do you treat him like Huntley and you say, okay, we're going to use you, but we're going to be ready to, we'll figure it out on the go because I'm with you, Andy. As a runner, he just makes plays. So you, you want him on a football team. You just got to figure out how. You mentioned another guy and we got to talk about him even though he's not here. Stetson Bennett declined the opportunity to be here and went and got himself arrested. 6.10 a.m. knocking on doors.

That's, listen. We know it was an underage. 6.10 a.m. I've had some nights that ended with the sun coming up. It's not, it's a bad deal usually. Were you preparing for the draft at the time? I was probably, probably should have been trying to do something more responsible. But that's the thing. Stetson Bennett could have been out here. And I mean, from what we've seen on the field from him, outplaying all of these quarterbacks. He could have been helping himself and all he did was hurt himself.

Yeah, you know, it's tough because on one hand I get it. You just played a 15 game, grueling schedule. And, you know, like, that's, but you're, you're not a guaranteed top four round quarterback. And so, you know, go, come to an event like this and give it your best shot. I think we're so, the media is so fixated on the underdog story. He's not as much of an under, like, that's not how a scouts view, you know. Good. Yeah, you know, he is good.

But he also has things that he needs to work on. And, you know, it's, some of it's intangible related. And some of it's, you know, and so there's a lot with his, it's a far from perfect evaluation. And so for guys like that, come to an opportunity like this where it's not a great quarter. We might not have a top 100 quarterback here. Come to an event like this and show out. And yeah, it's a shame considering what happened. But, you know, he'll have a chance to maybe redeem himself at the combine.

Dan just hit you with code. He's got some things intangible related to work on. You know, really. Like could have gone to the senior bowl and wound up getting arrested at 16 a.m. for public intoxication? It looks really bad. It looks really bad when you say you're going to focus, you're not going to play at senior ball. You pulled out because you want to focus on the combine and the draft. And then that's, that's obviously not what you focused on, at least on that particular day. That's actually been my combine experience a few times. Yeah. So me, but you're not focusing on being a reporter.

But you don't wear, you know, you're not number, you know, 126 or number 13 or whatever. You don't have the shirt. You don't, you're not wearing a spandex. And it's a little different than like, you know, will levis. Like, I mean, I don't think people realize how hurt. Will Levis was down the stretch of the season. The second half of the year, he's getting shots before every game into his foot. He needs legitimate time to get better and get healthy. So I think it's a little bit different than that. And Will Levis, he's not really competing with any quarterbacks here.

He's going to be the first senior quarterback drafted. There's no question. It's just, you know, the Setson Bennett-Will-Levis' conversation about who should be here. It's just a little different. I think Stetson is a guy who, you know, so you look at it, you have to look at quarterbacks in parts. Start off with the physical part minus. I mean, there's just no way around it. If you minus Bryce Young, you have to minus Stetson.

If you plus Bryce Young, you don't care about size. You can't care about size with Stetson Bennett. That's how I look at it. Be consistent. I recognize that one guy has some special talent, but I thought Stets and Bennett played really well down the stretch. Played with a lot of confidence, a lot of poise. Thought he delivered the ball with accuracy.

Show decent zip on the ball. Enough zip, I thought. May not have a big arm, but I wasn't phased by it. I came away from the national championship game. And really frankly, the playoffs thinking, man, I got to really, you know, I really got to really give this some thought about what I'm willing to do with a 25, going to be a 26-year-old rookie who's undersized. And then, you know, then you start having anything negative go wrong.

And there's some buzz about, you know, was he beloved in the locker room by his teammates and stuff like that? There's a lot of buzz on that. That's what Dane's probably referencing. So you got a little buzz on that. So is he a likable guy? Is he a guy that guys rally around? If you say no, it's, you know, then all of a sudden now you're looking at, looking at the PI and you're saying, wait a minute now, we're starting to have some things pile up

on this, on this 186 pound frame or whatever he's going to weigh. And that's your concern. I like the football player. I loved him. I thought he's, but, you know, he's 25 going to be 26. He's undersized. He just got a PI, which shows, you know, bad decision making for an older guy who should be much more mature.

And then, you know, if you don't have a big checkmark on leadership and intangibles, man, you start to have a kind of roll downhill on you. So as Dane said, it would have been nice for him to be out here. And, and, A, wouldn't have the P.I., I'm assuming. And B, it would have been a chance. I mean, he would have outplayed these guys. Listen, whom among us has not been publicly intoxicated? It's just the circumstances that we're talking about here.

I think I was on last Saturday. But that's regardless, it got worse as the night went on, but I took an Uber home. I wasn't knocking on anybody. As a matter of fact, I was in bed of 7.30 a night. And my daughter really gave me the business. I mean, she's- That actually is another podcast, day drinking, highly underrated. Yeah, I was at University of Houston basketball game and the Cougars won late.

And then I ran into, you know who I ran into? Well, he came after. How do you like this? I leave, right as I'm leaving after Irish goodbye, the crew I came with, I said, okay, I can't keep up with you guys. So I'm leaving. Selvin Young gets there, University of Texas. You know who shows up one hour later, VY. And VY, and they all had dinner to everyone.

How's your looking at me? this. D-Y's doing great. He was having dinner. Vince Young is one of those humans that you meet him. Eddie George is the other one I'll put in this category where you go, how did anyone ever tackle you? Vince is so cool, too. Vince is so much.

Like there's a level of cool to Vince. I interviewed him when he was in high school. And now, you know, here he is. He's done with his playing career. There's just a level of cool to Vince Young. But yeah, it's a, I just got off on a tangent there. But I think it's unfortunate sets and then play. Will Elvis.

I'm interested to see if he even. throws the combine or if they wait to really you know that that's another conversation for another time but I want to see if they try to wait as long as they can to tighten up the mechanics and fundamentals and wait until it's pro day to throw I'm interested to see if Bryce Young

weighs 200 pounds at combine doesn't throw and then doesn't weigh at his pro day and throws there I'm already kind of figuring out how I think this thing's going to go yeah and we know he's small like I don't know it just yeah you don't need to try to fool this by getting a 200 if you're a hundred ninety two pounds that's we know you're just

volunteering to eat all the biscuits so I can trick so I can trick everybody but that's just me the problem is you gotta take it off then that's the worst part one guy that I think you know has got plenty of buzz he's going to blow up the combine a little up and down this week so far Keon White Georgia Tech

a former tight end old Dominion he has a lot going for him he's a freaky athlete there's a lot working for him but they're posting the highest miles per hour reached by each position group and he was far and away the fastest. Oh, he's at the combine.

Yeah, he's going to be 285 pounds or whatever and run in the four-fives. I mean, he's a freak. But snap to snap, it's just a little inconsistent. And so I don't know. I was hoping to see a little bit more from him. Same thing with Andre Carter from Army. I mean, it's, he's a year away from being a year away. You know, he needs to develop his body.

He's going to be a sub-package guy. And so you just, again, evaluation versus the valuation, where do you draft a player like this? I thought during the season or coming into the year, I thought, yeah, he'll be a top 100 guy. I still think he probably will be because, you know, he's got length, he's got speed. There's a good foundation there. But as you stack these pass rushers in this draft, like he didn't make my top 15 pass rushers. Just because I still think he's a long ways to go. And we've seen that this week.

I talked to a coach used to here at the practices who used to be at Army, and he told me, you know, the training table is not great at Army, relative to the rest of college football. He's not at Army now. You know, he talked about the rigors of just being a cadet and how that's beside practice. It's hard to keep weight on. Really hard, really hard. When you look at his arms and the development of his arms and legs,

I mean, Dan, you talked about, let's think about this. He's not going on a first. So he's going to get a four-year contract. the first year has to be a red shirt. I don't know how he could play. He needs a gain about at least 20 pounds. And the harder part about that is the political piece of it, which he had nothing to do with. Right.

You know, somebody slips something into the omnibus bill and all of a sudden the question is, can service academy guys go play in the NFL right away? But he can. Right, he can because they made an exception. And they said, so if you entered before this rule got changed, you can do it. But he becomes the face of all that. And that's tough for him. He had nothing to do with that.

Oh, yeah, nothing to do with it. And he's, you know, so he, you look at him from a frame standpoint and a strength standpoint, like he cannot match up against some of these guys out here. They're just way too strong for him. He had a great productive year in 21. This year they put a little more attention on him, not nearly as productive. And I think what you have here is a guy with traits, but a frame that really needs work. So if you draft him and he's got a four-year contract, the first year is a red shirt year.

There's just no way around it. And then you have to hope he's ready the next year. So really, anybody who drafts him is going to. going to be drafting four years to get three at best. And that does hurt from evaluation standpoint. I could see him in the day three. I think right now, I think right now, like, I don't see how you could draft him in the top 100.

He just, he has so far to go from a physical standpoint. It's not like he's 10 to 12 pounds away. He's about 20 pounds of muscle. He does. Yeah. And he could probably eventually get there. But yeah, to your point, like with the Army program, they mean, they limit how much you can squat.

You know, they limit what you can do. So, like, it's just, it's a little bit different than a lot of these guys, what they're working with. But again, he's long. He's got speed. So there's things to work with. I mean, I can still see teams being optimistic, but we have to be realistic about what his projection is as a rookie and then moving forward. All right, guys, before we get out of here, we've talked about who you thought was best, who you thought, you know, led each position group. Let's get sentimental.

Hmm. Who's just been your favorite? Who are you looking at going? I don't know if this person's an obvious fit. I don't know if this person's a super high draft pick, but I'm rooting for him. I want to see this person in the NFL. I think a lot of the guys we've named, one guy that I liked more and more after I watched him,

Carl Brooks from Bowling Green. That's a real player, though. He is. He's a real player. The way he played down the stretch, the way he's been playing here, they played him at a defensive end, and here he's been more of that.

He was a 295-pound defense man with stand-ups. He was a true edge player in that defense. And he had a few reps, you know, over the B-gap, and I thought he did a nice job. And his hands are so quick, so violent. You know, he's not the longest player. He's a little slawed off. But, man, with his athleticism,

the way he moves at 300-plus pounds, and the violence with his hands, I don't know where Carl Brooks is going to be drafted, but he's a guy that it's hard to watch and not really like him. I'm going to go with Riley Moss. Yeah. I'll tell you what, now.

Riley Moss, you know, of course it'll be a conversation in the first white corner and Jason Seahorn, I assume. He's a real player. Like, he's a legit guy. I don't know if he can be a starter, if he'll be a quality backup. There's talk about him playing safety. You know, I talked to a scout who worried about his open field tackling, but it's not, tackling and hitting is not a problem when run comes towards him. Like, he's physical.

He can get off blocks. but I think his instincts are good. He's got ball skills. He's got size. He can run. I think Riley Moss, to me, you know, the narrative is going to be something other than his football. But the reality is he's a good football player. And he has to stay healthy.

But Riley Moss is a good football player. And to have an Iowa cornerback, you know, Iowa's been the home of a lot of good ballhawks. That's just how they build. That defense was dominant. It had to be because the offense stunk. Yeah, it was terrible. But it's not just Lucas, Vanness, and Jack Campbell. There are a lot of good players on that defense.

And two of them are Maryweather and Riley Moss are here. And I think Riley can play a little bit. So he's a guy that I'm really interested to see. Sure, you know, you think it's just, you know, is it going to be fun to have people talking about that? And what will they say on the set when he's drafted? You know, people have some funny comments or whatever. But I think he's a good football player. And, you know, I'm always interested in the black quarterback.

My dad was a coach at University of Houston in the 70s when it was option quarterback. and Houston had a lot of black quarterbacks. And it was, even in the 70s as a kid, I knew it was, you know, it was kind of, it was a thing that was kind of looked down upon with some of the other teams in the Southwest Conference. I don't know if that's the right phrase. Well, I mean, look, he was. Warren Moon.

Yeah, and Warren Moon went through all kinds of crap. And looking back on that now. And he had to go to, he had to go to Canada. It is so amazing how short-sighted and stupid people were on that subject. Absolutely. It was incredible. It is amazing. I was at Tulane when going to school there when it was Terrence Jones was the quarterback

there at Tulane. He was a dual threat quarterback Greg Davis had when he was at North Carolina, or rather at Tulane. But, you know, I see that the shift in dynamics as people, you know, have broadened their approach and they're more open-minded. I think there could be other Riley Mosses. I think that sometimes people get caught up and instead of this guy being a wide receiver because you're used to to picturing a, you know, a white guy who's 5-11, 1905 pounds being a, being a wide receiver who can run. Oh, this guy can run too. How about a cornerback? Players have fun with this.

Yeah. Because they do. And in the locker room, it doesn't matter because all they care about is can you play or not. That's all they care about. And I think we're the ones who get all twisted up in this stuff. People in football, like you said, they just want to know if you can play. And I like to see people, you know, I'd like to see people, I'd like to see all people get a chance to just, you know, the people who are the decision makers have to get out of their, get out of their comfort zone of where they like to pigeonhole certain players. We've seen it with quarterbacks now and people have broadened out.

I think Riley, I think it will be interesting if more teams say, hey, instead of us taking this kid and making him a slot-wide receiver, like Ricky Pearsall, who I think is a good player, by the way, I'm not saying Ricky should be a corner, but maybe some teams in the high school level will start saying, hey, this guy's a really good athlete. Let's play him over at corner. Here's the thing, if you're a really good athlete and you're 6-1-6-2,

like you can be lost in the crowd at a receiver. You can stand out at corner. No, it's a great point. And so Riley Moss, good play. He's had a really good first two practices here. I mean, he's been able to match receivers, whatever they've thrown at them. And it's tough in these one-on-ones when you're a corner

and you don't know what's coming and you're on an island. Yeah, you've got no help out there. But he's really acquitted himself well. All right. Well, I also, for my other podcast, if you listen to the Andy Sapel show, which has its own feed, please subscribe to that one too. I got great news out of Iowa today.

Kirk Ferrence, the head coach announced, no staff changes he anticipates. Brian Ferrence, his son will be back as offensive coordinator. Keeps ungiving. It is a gift from the content gods. So thank you, Kirk, Ferrence. Can I tell you that I've got an Iowa fan, so I do a sports radio show in Houston,

have for 25 years. And one of the guys, Tony Moles, who is a longtime listener, is an Iowa guy. And we've talked to Iowa football over the years. He has been pushing this, you know, if the Texans really want to get innovative, they're really going to have to move

towards Brian Farrantz. They're trying to move him away to anybody he'll take him. I'm like, hey, we can get some line play going with the Farrants, but I'm not sure he's going to be our play call. Well, that's what the thought was when Bill O'Brien got the Patriots job that he might call Brian as the line coach. But it does not sound like that's happening. And as a podcaster, I'm very thankful for that.

But thank you so much for listening. Mobile has been a fantastic host. We have not gotten rained on like we did last year, knock on wood for tomorrow. But it's been fun and great to do this in person and talk to you guys next week. Can't wait. This was The Athletic Football Show.