The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Raheem Morris + Dan Orlovsky on Dak Prescott and Trevor Lawrence

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Robert Mays sits down with Falcons head coach Raheem Morris to talk about what he’s building in Atlanta and about taking the league by surprise at the 2024 draft. Then Dan Orlovsky joins the show to talk about what contract talks with Dak Prescott and Trevor Lawrence could mean across the league.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. We have a great show for you guys today. But before we get started, a couple of things I wanted to chat with you about. We're going to kick off today's show with a conversation I had with Rahim Morris, Falcons Head Coach Rahim Morris, a couple weeks ago. Got the chance to go down to Atlanta and sit with Rahim for a little bit and a couple other members of the staff as well.

But the discussion we had with Rahim was for the show. And we touched on a lot of stuff, his background, what he's. learned since his last experience as a head coach in Tampa, why they drafted Michael Panix, some of the things that they're going to have to navigate after making that pick when you consider this team's expectations and some of the urgency around what they want to accomplish. So very excited for you guys to hear that discussion with Rahim. We also included a conversation I had with Dan Rolofsky last week. And this is what I wanted to talk with you guys about.

We recorded this before the Trevor Lawrence extension came down. And the chat that I had with Dan was about the discussion around new contracts for DAC and Trevor Lawrence. And I think it's not a secret that there have been a lot of talks on this show over the last few years about both of those guys. And this is a pro Trevor Lawrence and pro-Dac Prescott show. And you can go back to any episode where we discuss either of them. And, you know, it's pretty typical for it to kind of quickly get to a, oh, yeah, those guys are good. Those guys are part of this group. And, you know, Dan has been a little bit more.

about what they are and whether or not those teams should just blindly pay either of those guys this offseason. So I wanted to talk with Dan about that. And the discussion that we had ended up touching on a bunch of different things about what sort of quarterbacks you pay, when you pay them, the limitations when you don't have one of the guys. And even if some of that is outdated because Trevor did get the extension after we talked, I still thought the conversation itself was good enough, illuminating enough. and I appreciated Dan's time enough that I wanted to include it in this episode. So when you guys are listening to that, obviously keep in mind that Trevor Lawrence did get paid,

but I don't think it disqualifies a good portion of that chat that I had with Dan. So definitely wanted you guys to be able to hear that and see for yourselves kind of where his head was at and some of the stuff that we touched on. So we will do another show later this week that does a dive into the Lawrence extension and also is just a consideration of the quarterback market in general,

where it is, where it's going. So we will have an updated commentary on that Lawrence deal and what it means for him, for the Jags, and for the position at large. But that is coming a little bit later in the week. So with all that in mind, hope you guys enjoy the episode. Let's get to it.

And now we are here with Atlanta Falcons head coach, Rahe Morris. How does that sound? It always sound great. just the Atlanta part. Yeah. Because of the people here, start with Arthur Blank

in our relationship, and then all the other people that I had a chance to be a brown in this building. And then when you add the head coach onto it, it really feels good just because the chance to lead the team and to be with those guys.

So it is truly special, any head coach, but particularly one that you got these kind of ties to. I want to talk about that in the last time you were here, but I want to go a little bit further back to start with us.

So let's go back to 2009. 2009, yes. Okay, you're 32 years old when you get hired to be the head coach of the Bucks. Yes. You have 17 and 31 in those three seasons. Why are you going to bring up the bachelor? Because I think that it's going to be one of the first questions. It's going to be one of the first questions people ask, right?

It's like, okay, he already was a head coach. How is this going to be different? So you know it was funny about that whole thing. It's like, um, the 17 and 31 has been like something that people holding those things instead of going with the actual years. So in 2009, it was a really crazy season how we started. And that was the year we drafted a young working. quarterback and Josh Freeman. And Josh came on, I believe, right after our buy, and we opened up, he got a big-time win versus Aaron Rogers when we were at Green Bay and we're into cream circles. That was my first win. I'll never forget that. So that year, there was a bunch of ups and downs, trials and tribulations of how you want to do things. And I remember that whole year building from the draft and how we were going to build young and do this thing the right way. And we were taking out time with it and we were being really patient. And we did really want to play a young quarterback back then.

because we had just got Byron Lefich. We had just traded, I believe, Luke McCown, and got Byron Lefridge, and we brought him in, and we had Josh Johnson, who's still playing today. He's still around, yeah. And he ended up starting a few games for us. And then at the end, we got to the buy. Our guy had made so much progress,

and we hadn't got a win with the guys we thought we could probably get some, sneak some wins in there with, and we put in Josh. And he played well down the stretch and made his competitive. And we went to that next year and went 10 and 6, and we had arrived a little bit, and hit the lockout,

and we came out, started the next year, we started off four and two. Big time win versus the Saints, got them really good, you know, going to a game in, I believe it was in London. And we went out there, played the Bears and lost the overtime game in the Bears.

Oh, it was the Patriots. I can't remember my ears getting mixed up a little bit. But we ended up losing a big time game out there and we couldn't win a game after. And once you can't win a game after, you're going to just 10-game loser streak, it really sounds a lot worse than the actual experience was.

But, you know, it's going to be a big difference. because you learn so much from even just that experience and then the growth even after that that you get from those experiences, being young 32. At 32, you got all the answers, right? Oh, my God. Just ask me, right? It was like you got all these reasons why you should fail.

You got all these reasons why you should do well. You got all those reasons why you think that you want to do things, how you want to do it, and you miss a couple opportunities to listen to people around you. And I think that's the biggest difference in the 47-year-old Rahim Morris as opposed to the 32-year-old Rahim Morris talking in third person in your podcast, you loving it. Just being able to kind of take things from people around you,

have your ears open a little bit more than you would have backed that. Because I was going to ask you, what's the biggest difference between who you are now and who you were the last time you were in this chair? You know, I don't know if it's just your ears opening. It's a little bit of, and we had great people around us. So it's the surrounding of the people. It's the putting the people in the right spot to have the, that you can actually listen to, putting them a position to listen to them,

giving them the platform so you can put yourself in and make better decisions and listen to those people. So like the listening part of it all, as you get older, you get wiser, you get a little bit mature, and the things of how you go about your business, that those things work well for you. So I really believe that's the biggest difference in myself over the last couple of years and some of the experience that I've been able to go through, you know, which I'm sure will go through at some point. But the experience that you go through and your ability actually to realize what's going on and how to fix certain things so you can be a better, really, assistant coach

that I've been able to be in the last 12 years of really my work and professional career. What's something you did back then, the way you approached something, the way you structured something, that you would just never do now? You know, it's hard to say never, you know. You'd be more hesitant to do now.

Let's frame it that way. It's just some things you can do better. You know, I was more willing to not go with some of the non-negotiables on character to bring in better players because we wanted to start so young and do things the right way because we felt like we can mold them. And it takes, you know, an army to raise people.

And I won't right now really go against the ethos on the people that you bring into your team in order to sacrifice for winning. And you want to get the right people around because it's a people-first business. And if you can do those things, you've got a much better chance of getting the goal, the end goal that you want.

for the amount of time that you wanted. Has there been maybe two or three things in the 15 years since, when you were an assistant? A couple of lessons, things you took that kind of have the foundation or form the foundation of how you're going to approach the job now? There are so many, but the biggest one for me was the collaboration between the winning teams

and the teams that don't have as much success and going to L.A. and being around Les and being around Shaw McVeigh and the collaboration they had from a management standpoint, from a coaching standpoint, and the ability to lead, right? I thought that was special. And then from the outside end,

looking at Kevin Colbert and then Mike Tomlin, being able to be close to that relationship and seeing how they led and see how that worked. And those are the two biggest things, right? You're talking about winning programs, winning franchises, teams that's won Super Bowls, different times, obviously different times. But being a part of one

and being close enough from the outside to be a part of another, I felt like what is things that were missing that I had. I had a great relationship with Mark McDonough. But I don't think I was collaborative enough, and I don't think vice versa, we were collaborative enough together with our ideas, our opinions, how we moved, how we talked to the ownership, how we talked to the building,

how we were together on every single thing, how we were tied, connected to the hip with all the thoughts and everything that happened to do with just about everything you do, right? You know, sometimes you kind of get lucky enough when you're young. I remember talking to Sean Mavere about this. You kind of get lucky enough

when you're young, that you don't know enough to even worry about it. Yeah. Right? There's a bliss that comes to that ignorance. You have no idea what's actually happening. And sometimes that's helpful. Yeah.

And in my case, yes. In my case, I can't necessarily say that. You know, there were some blind spots that I would probably like to be more aware of that I probably could have been more helpful at at the time that I'm able to be more helpful with now. And hopefully that turns to the right direction for us for success. How did you see?

that collaboration manifest? Is it when those guys met? Is it the topics that they would discuss? What did that actually look like in practice with Les and Sean in L.A.? So to be hard for me to talk about when it happened, because it was already going before I actually got there. I was able to jump right in the middle almost, right? We were talking about a group that had got together, had success, won a couple games, came out here and lost to us in the land of the playoffs, right? The following year, was able to go to Super Bowl together, lose a Super Bowl together, was able to bounce back and still win football games and get back together. And then, you know, fortunately enough for me,

I was able to go out there and join those guys in the leadership role. And being close to Sean, he was able to bring me behind those back channels so I can see all of the things that they did do and how it went down. And I got a close enough relationship with Les that I was able to listen to him and see how it went down with him and to see really Les just be this nerd who just wanted to watch football and study players and be great. Then you watch Sean, who's a nerd in his own right, who just wanted to call plays and just wanted to coach football

and just wanted to be that guys. Then you watched those guys to get together, and it was a great conversation. It was great battle back and forth on, or thoughts or ideas, bouncing off each other. And then those two guys getting together and making decisions, and that's coming out that room

and really moving forward how it was dictated by the head coach. Is it what types of players you're looking for? Is it what you want the building to feel like? What was the kind of root of most of those conversations? The culture there was a big part of it, the we, not me mentality that they just screams through L.A. That was a big part of it, the culture. When you're talking about how that was going down, and that was really the people. The next part about it was the people that they hired and put in place.

I mean, we had great people in place, Reggie Scott that was obviously there with Les before. You had guys like Jack McClendon that was working with our player development. We had people all in place, Brendan Berger, in our equipment room, and that's a big part of who you are and what you are and what you do. We had people all across that building in our strength room with love and some of the things that they were doing in that room. And it's just all the people, Sophie Harlan, people that was in charge of travel, and the commitment that was all across the board and the collaboration and the meeting of people that made that thing go the right way. You know, from the president and Kevin Demoff to Tony Pastor and our freaking money department and doing all the things all the way up to ownership. Yeah. And I thought that was one of the cooler environment.

to be around when it came to people being like-minded and being on the same page for a long amount of time and onboarding people the right way to replace people when they did leave to get things to stay in the same. And that's why I really believe Sean and less and that organization has some success over the last couple of years. You had to wait a long time for this. You know, it's been a while. And was there any moment, whether it was the types of guys getting hired or certain trends in that world that was particularly disheartening as you waited for a second chance as other guys guys got theirs. That would be, I answer this question all the time. It's so funny. I feel like I'd do a

repeat interview every time I talk, but that would be so selfish of me, right? Because I was one of the few people at 32 years old that was a head coach, right? So to say I had to wait a long time is such a selfish statement when you guys got like, you guys, you guys like Bruce Arians who waited to 60 to be a head coach the first time, right? So I was felt fortunate to be a head coach at 32, right? I felt fortunate to be a coordinator for a very long time in its league. I felt fortunate to be able to go from offense to defense or defense to offense. Within that time, I was waiting to be a head coach again. I felt fortunate to be promoted to an interim head coach

to be able to lead again in a short-term fashion, and then to be able to go to L.A. as a coordinator and lead a team to a Super Bowl and win, and then find a way to bounce back after a bad season. So I felt like all of those experience were really learning experience. And you know what it is when you're doing really good things, it goes really fast. So I never got to the old, whoa, was me mentality,

because I never felt like I was one of the guys that was slighted in of an opportunity. I had an opportunity. It didn't work out how you quite wanted. And the next thing you had to do was get ready for the next time it came up. And I always felt like it would come because I always had opportunities to either interview,

always had opportunities to do well, always had opportunity to go to playoff in advance and win more championships, whether we're talking about in Atlanta or we're talking about L.A. And that just created habits for myself in order to make me better. And I always felt like everywhere I was

and the people that was around and I had a chance to get better and better every single time. Imagine you were an intermed coach. That was here. Yes. And it wasn't that long ago. Three years. And it's such a unique circumstance for somebody to be in your position now that I keep

using this term today. You know where the bodies were buried. It's not that serious. But you know what the building is. And you know where some of maybe the deficiencies were. So when you were going through the interview process, how did that knowledge of the way the organization functions allow you to kind of have a different conversation with Arthur Blank

and the rest of the selection committee than maybe some other candidates might be able to? The way I looked at it is it gave me a real sense of urgency to want this job because of the people that I knew were already in place. And it wasn't just Arthur Blank, it was Rich McKay.

It was Kyle Smith that I had a relationship in D.C. That I didn't work with Atlanta, but I knew exactly what it was about. It was Dean Simulose that was on the calls that I was able to be a part of. It was coming back and actually interviewing in person

and being around Tamika Rich, you know, being around Fernando that I had just met, being around Brett Jukes, who was already a part of the program when I was here that I knew very well, that I knew I wanted to come back and be a part of and be to work with. David Bassety, having a chance to come back here

and work with those guys, Brandon Roof, and it was almost a feel of, I got to get back there to work with people that I really know that I got real investments in, that I know we can win together and have a sense of urgency. So I'm not saying that it gave me an advantage. I think it gave me more of a sense of urgency

to get back here to be the best version of myself because I knew we can have a chance to win with the people that I knew were already in place. After your last experience here, what was something that when you were talking to those guys in the process, you knew it needed to change because of your proximity to it? You know, when I was here the first time, I felt like we started off in 2015

with the 8 and 8th season, the next year, 2016, the Super Bowl run, where we lost the game, 17, the playoff run, where we lost the game versus Philly to end up winning the championship. And then the following, we had a small collapse. And I felt like it was a relationship collapse between two of my really good friends.

You're talking about Dan Quinn, who's like one of my best friends in life who coached me in college and Thomas Demetrov. And there was a little bit of divide. And I felt like I wanted to bring that back together. The shared vision, the GM relationship with the head coach that just goes throughout the organization that we had here at a time that I wanted to bring back.

And I felt like when we lost that, that was kind of a little bit of a downfall that what we had in my tenure here. And, you know, you would have to ask Dan and you have to ask Thomas on what they felt, but that was just some outside looking in, a version for myself, of the relationship between those two

and what happened between all of us. And how do you format that with Terry? Is that just spending time? I mean, how have you guys spend time together? What does the bedrock of that look like? I really believe it kind of happened just over time. And I think it's happened really with us kind of almost right away, right?

there was the immediate hire. You know, I think the delay and even the first end of the press conference got a chance for us to really meet each other. I think us being on the phone actually doing Zooms with interview candidates, I think us being on the phone each week talking about what we want to do, how we want to move forward, the draft process, I think our free agent process, I think all of that stuff was working together has just been outstanding, the support that he's been able to show me from an all-season standpoint, there was support I was able to show him from a draft in a free agency standpoint, being around

his people, him being around our guys, the new guys, getting with the old guys, the profile tapes, all of the stuff that we're being able to do up to this point. I think it's been a collaborative effort between us, too, that has just really shown the shared vision that we both have. And I think our relationship would continue to grow. Like, it's almost like a brother relationship at this point, and it's been a very short time where that's been formed. And I got to keep that in the maintain. And I think that's my job. And I think that's our job. And I think that's what we have to do in order to get this thing going the way we want to get going. in the same direction. Exactly right. Remember that the last time I talked to you, it was before the

21 season, and you were in such a unique circumstance. You come in as a defensive coordinator for a team, but you're learning the defense. I mean, I can't remember anything like that because pretty much everyone else had been in place and they had a lot of success. I want to just have you walk me through practically what that looks like, because I think it'll give people a window into how you think and in terms of how you want to interact with your staff and your players. So practically, what did it look like? Every way you go. you know, people are going to have systems that are similar. I mean, it's just football is football in the simplest form.

You got fundamentals, you got techniques. That's always going to be something that's your trademark. And I just wanted to implement some of my fundamental core beliefs while learning the system in the language that the people already knew. Like, why make 60 other people learn something new as opposed to one learning with the 60 already know and be able to formulate that thing to get it going in the right direction so we can win football games?

And I felt like it was an easy, transition for myself because I had such good people around me. And I had such good people that already set a nice foundation that had it going in the right direction to go out there and absolutely have the same goal and win a championship for each other. Man, it was such a smooth transition. I think it was a good transition and I think it was well done by coaches and both players are like. I'm talking about position coaches to coordinators, to the head coach from Egero Eeverro to Eric Henderson to Jonathan Cooley, I mean, just coaches in his league that are all different areas and all different walks of life that had been in L.A. that work with me on

different venues and different parts that we got back together and it's such a mutual respect that it just worked well. What's the most important thing you have to learn in that process? Is it how to call a game? Is it how structures work? I mean, what was the thing that we feel like, all right, when this light bulb went off, now I understand it? You know, the really thing there was the special player that you had when you're talking about 99. You know, he just retired. So like having that guy, not everybody's been around a person like 99, you know, we're talking about a guy that's one of one. I guess I was around the closest and like a guy like Warren sat. And being able to move that moving part around to make sure you can find ways that he can

wrecked the game. And then you had all these other little pieces around. You know, we talked about Vaughn Miller, came on halfway through. You know, then he talked about Flo, who was a superstar on his own, right? Jalen Ramsey was out at Corner. You just got Ernest Jones implemented into it. You had Troy Reader, who was really a productive player for him. You had some young safeties had some success a year before. So you just wanted to be able to find ways to maximize the players and the talent you had around you, and that took a little time throughout the year, right? Or we'd have been 17 and 0, right? Didn't work that way. You went a couple of times. games, you lose a couple. We had a struggle in November, which was kind of took us off the radar.

And then we're able to bounce back out of that funk. It was just one heck of a run in LA, playing the Super Bowl at home. And I can't think of a better feeling that you could possibly have than that. It's always fun watching a team figure itself out over the course of the season. And the moment I remember, just the element I remember most from that playoff run is how you unlocked Ernest Jones as a blitzer. And just how that all, I mean, your guy has his blitz rate in that playoff run was like 42%, which is an outlier compared to what you were during the season. But it's always interesting to see like, all right, this, some, for whatever reason, this is clicked into place, and this is going to allow us to be a slightly different version of ourselves

at the most important part of the year. You find ways to utilize your best football players. And Ernest was one of them, you know, and he played with a bunch of different people, right? That year we had probably three different middle linebackers and Troy Reader, Kenny Young, Ernest Jones. Because he came back late that year. All at different points, right? You're talking about he was a rookie. He ended up starting later.

He ended up getting injured. He ended up bouncing back for the playoff run or somewhat through the playoff run. And it's always fun when you get those pieces in place and you're able to activate different things. We had Taylor Rap then as well. And he was a pretty good blitz and safety as well. So we were able to utilize his skill set.

And all of those things you manifest and you find ways to get one-on-ones for 99 and when you get a chance to do that, your win rate's going to go up. And that season was a lot of fun to be able to go through all the trials, the tribulations, the thought process, the every week game planning,

to maximize the ability and the people that we had. And it was really fun. Even Jalen Ramsey, right? That was one of his not first, not the first year, but that was one of the years he moved around probably the most in his career. And it was to maximize his abilities and get him different spots

and to get them different looks, so to speak, at different playoffs. And that was a lot of fun to do as well. And like those guys, man, And got to give them a lot of credit, right? They were able to get a new coach. They were able to buy in. They were able to go out there and play at a high level,

find a way to bounce back through some adversity and win a Super Bowl. And that's what the team is. I remember also that summer talking to you about your background. Sure. And it's fascinating because you come up in a Monty Kiffin Cover 2 world. Yes. And then you spend a few years in a blitz-happy world in Washington with Jim Haslett. Yes.

And then you learn the Seattle Three world when you work with Dan Furring. couple of years, and then you go to LA and you do something completely different than anything else you had ever done. So as you come out on the other side of all of that, what would you say formulates the bones of what you believe as a defensive coach? Always been nosy. So even before, we were always nosy people. We stole stuff from Baltimore that we didn't talk about when we were in Tampa, you know, when the Monty Kiffman era was over and we kind of took over for that 2009 to 2010 year. Those things were stealing from Baltimore. They were stealing from Rex It was still for all different people.

So you always want to evolve, and we're always going to have a growth mindset. And if you can continue with that growth mindset and bring that stuff a part of your fundamental core beliefs, you've got a chance to evolve every single year to stay ahead of the curve. Because if you don't evolve, you get left behind in this league. There are a lot of smart coaches,

and trends happen all the time, and trends come back, and they go full circle. You know, next year, we know. Maybe back to Monique in Tampa, too. I mean, there's a lot more curve or two now than there was five years ago. No doubt. And it's going to continue to happen.

So, like, having knowledge of all of those different systems, I think have really helped me, you know, mature, develop, have the growth mindset, and not be setting the ways where it's my system. It's our system, wherever we are, based on the players that we have. And those things will always continue to be the first and foremost that I always think about. So as you start to build what it's going to look like this year, do you feel like you're borrowing the most from what it was in L.A. just because it's the most recent language that you used?

It's hard to say that because you hired his coaches. right and they come from different walks of life and jerry gray's got some other experiences that i want to be interested yeah jimmy lake's got some different experience that you want to dig into you know it'll have some some some similarities of what it looked like at the rams but it's going to be the alana defense and it's going to be the alanta 2004 style of defense and it's going to fit the players that we have in the k nelson and the grady j jarris and the david al miniatas and the a jrilles and all those type of guys right it's just it becomes more fun when you think player first, and you think player-friendly, and you think likable, you think learnable, you think

fast, you think physical, and you think free. And you allow those guys to go out there and really take ownership of the calls, ownership of the play. Your last couple stops, you work with Sean for three years. Yes. And then when you were here last, you got to be on the offensive staff when Calhannaan was here. Yes. So you got a up close and personal look at two of the best play callers in the league. And with Sean specifically over the last few years, what was cool watching is the different iterations of the offense. When Matthew gets there, it's way more spread out, it's way more downfield. And then last year, watching them kind of tap into, all right, we're going to be this dual

run team, it all kind of like, it was cool watching them figure out the puzzle. And when you watch, you got to watch that up close. So as you kind of understand the way that modern football on offense can be successful, what does that mean that you have to do on defense? Like, what does your mindset have to be to combat people like that? There's almost the same match I just gave you. You know, Sean is a nosy coach as well, right? And that's how you evolve, right?

We all started this thing together, right? With Mike Shanahan back at Washington, running the zone scheme and throwing the plaques off the zone scheme. We all know what the language looks like and it sounds like. But at the same time, Kyle Shanahan and both Sean McVeigh both have gap scheme. They both do it, their players do well. He has McCaffrey now, and Sean has Pooka Nacua. Yeah.

And he's an 11 team. Cow's a 21 team, but if you really get down to the nuts and bolts of it, they do what their players can do. They're both going to have a growth mindset. They're both going to think players first. They're both going to go out there and do what their guys can do to go win. And that's why they're considered the best. They're constantly stand ahead of the curve. They constantly stand ahead of what everybody else wants them to be, and they find different ways to morph their stuff to go out there and win football games.

And as a defense of play caller, you better keep up. When you were talking to, I want to talk about the quarterback room a little bit, when you were talking to Zach about Kirk when you guys were initially going to make that decision. What was it about Kirk's skill set and background that you thought made him a fit for what you guys wanted to be offensively? The human in Kirk was the number one deal that made him a fit, his ethos and who he is as a person, being around him in D.C., knowing exactly was as a rookie, knowing what he was as his maturity level grew. He became a starter and a full-time starter, being with Kyle Shanahan, being with Sean McVeigh, going with Kevin O'Connell, you know, being around similar systems

that we've all done and we've all worked with. That was the first thing. The next thing was the player and who we could be. The processor, the guy that gets the ball in the right spot, knows exactly what he wants, has a process that he goes through, has real purpose in his delivery, love the human, love his family,

love everything is about. And bringing him here, I thought he can activate some of the players that we have here that are really good. That was number one with Zach. And we were both like-minded on those thoughts and how we saw that. And he was also a part of our process.

And he was one of the main goals and the main targets that we talked about going to get, not publicly, but, you know, obviously in-house and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to go do it. Is there a certain level of comfort watching him do and have success in an offense in Minnesota that has shared DNA to what you guys want to be? He's had success in every offense that we've kind of had DNA in that you could think of, going back to Calshanahan and Washington to Jay Gruden, to Shaw McVeigh, to Kevin O'Connell. to whatever he's done. And really, I think it's more of his attacking mindset of having success than actually the systems. And he has a like mindset that we all have. He sees it very similar, but it really made it easy

knowing exactly what Kevin O'Connell was doing, knowing exactly that Zach and Kevin worked together, that Rahim, myself and Kevin and Sean and all of us worked together at one point. And it's a big family, and it was a lot of fun to be able to incorporate that into it. And you're forgetting some other people with that, you know, Matt LaFleur

worked with Kirk Cousins. He's his quarterback coach. Mike McDaniels on that staff as well. So all of these evolving offenses that you see that are consistently getting better and better and making harder on defensive guys. You know, Kurt has somewhat a relationship with all these people. And

that is fascinating for all of us, particularly when you get somebody just a quarterback needy team and a team that you think you can go out there and win when if you get the right guy. Yeah, he's almost like the platonic ideal of a Shanahan system quarterback. I mean, it's like, you can, you can, it's so easy to envision dropping him into what you guys want to be in and unlocking everything else. I can't, I can't, I can't call the Shanahan system anymore.

We used to call the Shannon system back in Washington when we were talking about, when you didn't want to say Kyle or Mike, you said the Shanahan's. Now, I mean, it's kind of like. Yeah, it's a little bit of everybody. It's the guys. And it is the most competitive thing to watch. You get a chance to watch the tape and a lot of similar things, little subtle differences and things of that nature that you can go. take from and steal from from your own team. Obviously, that's not the only move you guys made a quarterback this offseason.

Ultimately, what was the deciding factor that you guys made you think it was worth it? Even after signing Kirk, even after being in kind of the win now urgent position that you're in to pick a guy like Michael Paddock's when you did. You know, Kurt gives us a chance to win a championship. Let's not even put it any other way. Right. What are you talking about winning his division? Once you get in, anything can happen.

Kurt in his 12th year and if we were drafted Kurt in year one in 2012 and he had been Atlanta Falcon up to this point we'd be looking for somebody to come in and be ready to be the air parrot

and take over the reins hopefully getting Kurt here we're not going to be any position to pick a quarterback and you're sitting there with Dave Pick you evaluate the quarterbacks before and after free agency you evaluate all the positions

and you're sitting there at eight and the gods you got very high in your board staring at you with a chance to pick him a god that you believe in. God has got a lot of similar traits to the guy that you're going to know lead you this year and do the things that he's done. God has a

cannon of an arm, processor, humble, fits your ethos. There's everything the right way. A god is you know you can bring in here and sit behind a guy for a couple of years no matter how long it takes and say, here's our parent, let's go to work. Now, did it shock everybody, catch everybody by a surprise

because of the amount of investment that you put into the room? Yes, is it the most important position potentially arguably in sports? No doubt. And we just felt like if we can fix that room and we can fix that thing short term, we can fix it long term.

The short term is dependent on us, right? The short term is dependent on Kurt. The short term is dependent on how much success we can have in the short term, right? that thing may turn into whatever it is. That is what it is. That doesn't seem like a problem for us. What was the moment in the process

that you knew you would have felt comfortable doing this with Michael? You know, we graded Michael very high, and he has some really high grades in our building. And particularly myself, particularly a bunch of the people in the room, we had a quarterback contingent, which I've talked about at an almost annoying point at this point with Zach Robinson, TJ Gates,

DJ Williams, KJ Black, Kenzie, Chandler Whitmer, all guys that have been around quarterbacks, right? So when you're just talking about the quarterbacks they've been around, my guy at the Chargers, the famous guy in New Orleans, Matt Ryan, I mean, Matt Stafford, these guys have been around and know what it looks like.

You get the best of values in the house in the world to do it. Let's believe it. stick with our guns and go with it. We get to the pick, and he's there. Pull the trigger. What was it about his skill set that you felt was special enough to do something that, let's call it,

unconventional or surprising? It has been coming out more and more as this thing's gone longer and longer. He's pro-ready. He's one of the few guys in college that's been back there and going through a process and going through a progression,

got the ball out in time, took the least amount of sacks. He's played a program. pro game his whole collegiate career. His office coordinator is an NFL offensive coordinator now. His coordinator is also in the NFL with him. The young man's pro-ready. And I felt like people almost got mad after the fact because he is so pro-ready.

But for us, it was just having the ability to go get a guy. You feel like that can sit behind Kurt, learn, become great, have Kurt pass the torch to him at some point and keep it going. and have long-term success with the organization that deserves it. It creates a unique dynamic, and that's your job, right? So what do you feel like you've had to kind of... It's not your job. It's our job.

It is the job of the building to handle that unique dynamic. So what do you think has been at top of mind for you and how the building needs to approach that dynamic? The only reason you can even make that kind of step is because of the person that pinnics is. If Pennix wasn't the guy that he is, then we wouldn't be able to do it. And really, both of them. Kurt isn't the guy that he is.

We couldn't make those type of decisions. You know, when you have a guy like Pennix, a strong character, strong personality, fits the Falcon ethos, all about winning, one common goal, both of these guys aim at the same thing, look at each other, knowing that you can get better every single day. Those are the kind of people you have. That's the kind of people you want. And then the rest of us, we got to be there to support those guys.

And that's our part in it, being able to support our guys. One of the people that you brought to be a part of that process is Zach Robinson. Yes. Why, Zach? And as you looked at all the offensive coordinator options available to you, why did you land on him? When I got to L.A. three years ago, it was an immediate connection with Zach. Being able to watch him move in silence with the genius, you know, watching him with Kevin O'Connell, watching him with Shepard. McVeigh, watching them with Liam, watching them with all the guys that's on that, that

Rams' offense, whether it be Eric Yarber or there's been, whoever the case may be talking to the old line coaches, whether it was Wendy, whether it was Cromer, no matter who it was at the time. It was his presence, his calm, his demeanor, his knowledge of this system, his connection with me. He was a clear-cut, easy choice for me. I was fortunate. I kind of joke with all the guys now, so I'm kind of like the middle child, right? I was the young guy when he came to Monty and Mike Tomlin and some of those guys, but I was like kind of the old guy when it came to Calshanahan and Sean McVay and Matt LaFleur and Mike McDaniels and some of these guys. And he reminds me of those guys.

So when I sit in that middle seat and I get a chance to sit back and watch and I watch these guys, I knew they're going to have success. At some point, not knowing when, he fits the mode of what those guys, how they started, what it looked like, the obsession to be great, all the things that are. those guys have that he possessed, and it's one of the guys that I wanted to go to work with. When you guys were, when you were talking to him about what the plan wanted to look like on offense, what it needed to look like on offense, who are the players that were at the centerpiece of that? Who did you, when you were talking to Zach initially, be like,

we need the right plan for this guy? It's so funny because it's hard to do that, right? I have five interviews for five different jobs, right? And you're more picking the person. You're more picking the person just opposed to anything else, right? And it's like, I'm picking Zach. And then where are we going? Who am I interviewing for? How does this fit? And how are we going to make this work?

So we had those conversations five different times, right? When it comes to our job, it was exciting. When it comes to the one we got, right? Drake London, Kyle Pitts, Bejohn Robinson, right? The last three first round draft picks. The Office of Line here, Jake Matthews, Bergeron, Chris Lindstrom, Dalman, right? You're talking about Caleb McGarry. Talking about five guys, two first round picks that was here when we picked them.

You know, you're talking about a second round pick in Berger Ryan. You're talking about an all-timer and first round pick in Matthews. And you're looking at the line that's ready made, it's ready to go. Some of the coaches that's coached them, some of the people that's been with this team and the unit, you get excited about that for Zach and the piece that we can add to it when we get here. And it's like, this was a really good fit for all of us. And it was a good look for all of us. And let's go add a quarterback.

Got a chance to add Mooney. Got a chance to add Ray, Ray. Got a chance to trade for Rondell, get some people around this, get more people, keep getting better every day. The exception to be great for my scouting department. It just doesn't stop, and I love that. When you were trying to formulate plans for those three guys, those three first round picks, who were you most excited about building a plan for as you guys got started kind of building the foundation of the offense? It starts with the run.

Bejan Robinson is exciting. Let's not kid ourselves, right? You know, starts with the run. And that upfront crew and the toughness that they play. They displayed last year and how they get off the ball. And then you see the talent in Bijan, and you had evaluated those guys from the last couple of years, even though we didn't have a first round pick in LA,

you still looked at them. Just out of pure curiosity, I feel like you have to watch a guy like that. Bejohn was coached by Sark, who worked with us in Atlanta, and you know a lot about that, and cheering for Texas was easy to do. And, you know, and it started to run. You know, wherever you go, all old school coaches, man, tell you. Yeah, spoke with like a true defensive football coach.

Let's think about the running game and stop in the run first. It is always that way. Yeah, no matter how many different systems you've been in or how many times you've had to think about football differently, that's at the core of it always. I still hear Monty Kiffin right now. Get in front of the road. Hey, yeah, you got to stop the run.

Monty and Rod Marinelli, I'm sure. I'm sure just getting together doing that. That's it. Sincerely appreciate the time. Very excited about you getting this opportunity and curious to see how it goes and where you guys take it. Awesome. No problem, man.

Thank you. Thanks. Always good to come on. Joining us now from ESPN, from NFL Live, from your television. It is Dan Arlovsky. How you doing, man? Buddy, I'm doing fantastic.

How about yourself, man? Doing very well. We're getting to the end of OTAs here. Obviously, this is the time in the calendar where everyone's going to take a little bit of a break for the next four, five, six weeks. We are not going to take that break. There's still plenty to talk about.

And I wanted to have you on because, you know, we've had this conversation in several different forms over the last couple months as you do your off-season content, your quarterback lists, your rankings, and you kind of take stock of the position overall. And two guys that I think, really since we started this show, have gotten a lot of quick love, right?

When we talk about them or think about them, it's like, oh, yeah, that guy's great. That guy's great. And you almost do it without thinking. And that's Deck Prescott and Trevor Lawrence. And both of their teams are in a pretty interesting spot right now because they have to decide, you know, with Trevor, whether it's this year or next year

and with DAC, whether it's by the end of the season, essentially, whether or not these guys are worth committing to. And I wanted to have you on because, I think you've been somebody who's been a little bit quicker to tap the brakes on paying both of those guys at this point for a few different reasons. And it's nice to have some dissenting opinions every once in a while and kind of look at this stuff from a slightly different angle. So let's start with DAC. I remember, I think it was in March post the first wave of free agency where you said that if you were in Dallas's position, if you were Jerry Jones, if you were Will McClay, you're running that team, you would have blown the whole thing up after last season. So that indicates to me that you are maybe not in favor of giving DAC a close to top of the market extension before this season begins.

Would you say that's fair? Yeah, that's fair. You know, Robert, it goes back for me to when DAC's first contract was, the first big one, was going to get done in the timing of it. And, you know, people misconstrue, like what my stance on DAC was then and probably a little bit now. I've always believed that Prescott good player at worst and he's had moments of being really good player and you know when his contract was going on and I understand that there's the you pay them what the market says to pay them world I'm aware of all that but I you know I was kind of I guess gathered or gain traction when I said you never pay a good player a great player money and obviously Dallas paid back Prescott a lot of money and I kind of have a very similar viewpoint of where things are right now is, you know, Dack, in his last two years,

one really good, one, really bad. And in both those situations, like in many ways, just dud playoff performances outside of the Tampa game. And I think you and I probably, the Tampa game was probably one of the easier games he's ever played as a pro. So just dudd playoff performances. And I think for Dallas, you have to take stock and say, okay, you know, he's good. And we have moments of really good with a pretty darn healthy and good roster. I understand the alternative of, well, if it's not him, who. But that doesn't just mean I'm paying you $50 million. I'm curious. And you'll understand why I'm asking this is we're going to get to the next point here. How much of a gap do you see between DAC and Kirk Cousins?

I mean, not much. You know, you're trying to take the players as individual pieces, which is really tough to do when you're evaluating that spot because it is so dependent on who and what, you know, who you're with and what you're doing. You know, I would claim that Kirk is probably in Minnesota been in better, better and more favorable situations in both of those questions. he's probably had better people around him, specifically, Justin, although Cid he's very good, and then the scheme of the offense. So, you know, I don't think that they're all that different players.

Both those guys are relatively the, I don't want to say the same person, but very similar to me. I think we can kind of hem and hall about where the gaps are between them. I would say that especially last year, DAC is making more plays out of structure. He's able to do a little bit more stuff when the play breaks down. He's able to operate outside of the pocket a little bit more. I think that some of the stuff protection-wise that DAC does before the snap,

just because they give him the freedom to do it. He has more autonomy than somebody like Kirk has the line of scrimmage. But those are marginal things that we're talking about. The reason that I ask that is because – and also Kirk is, I think, four years older. So those are kind of the differences to me. The reason I ask is because the Vikings kind of did this, right? What the Vikings have done over the last year is they looked at somebody who was between the eighth to 13th best quarterback in the league. And they said, you know what?

Paying that guy, if not top of the market money, then one step down from that. That is not the path for us to become a championship caliber team. That amount that we're allocated to the quarterback is going to hold us back from paying our own players and from being able to build a complete enough roster around our stars like Justin Jefferson. so we're going to choose to move on from Kirk. And essentially, if the cowboys do this, if they stick to their guns, if they do not blink and they walk away from DAC

at the end of the year, it's a similar situation. You're going to have CD at top of the market money. You're going to have Micah at top of the market money. You got a couple offensive linemen that you're going to have to pay. You paid a couple corners. And now, theoretically, you could drop a rookie quarterback contract into that,

but you'd have to maneuver to get one in the same way that the Vikings did. So it's not as if, if this is a dissimilar situation than some of the other ones we've seen in the past and kind of these tough choices that teams have to make with this type of quarterback? In many ways, it's an organizational, like, philosophy. There are organizations that I fully believe are content with, hey, we have good quarterback. We're going to pay him probably more than he's worth. And we know that our roster is not going to be healthy or good enough to elevate him to

a NFC or AFC championship caliber to be, but we're going to have the chance to win a good amount of games and our jobs are going to be safe. And there's that organizational philosophy. If he gets hot or if we hit on a fourth round pick or something, that's when you have a chance to go on a run. And then there's organizations who just sit there and go, we believe that unless you get a difference maker and win because of an elite, a top five quarterback, you have no shot. It's truly going and winning the whole thing. I think that's what we saw years ago when Buffalo went up and got Josh or the Kansas City Chiefs went up and got Patrick was they were sitting there going, we got good, you know, and Alex and I think it was Tyrod, but we need great. And it's just

the organizational philosophy. And there's always the fine line, Dallas and Minnesota are the perfect examples of, hey, you know, obviously Dallas has had a ton of regular season success. is we're going to be really good. And if we could get hot for two or three weeks with Doc Prescott, we can go to the NFC championship. That is truth. But you're constantly having to hold your breath on that if, you know, when you're then. I don't think anybody thinks that way, at least future-wise about the Green Bay Packers.

Everyone's sitting there going, I'd be very surprised if they're not an NFC championship game within the next couple of years, or if that young man's not playing for a Super Bowl Championship, or at least in that conversation. And I just don't believe that Dallas, I don't think that Dallas is in a place where they had either of those answers right now. It's interesting. I remember talking to someone in the Minnesota building about Kirk when they were still kind of attached to Kirk before the 2023 season.

And I was asking them about that sort of idea. It's like, okay, how does this guy get you to the end of the road? how does this guy get you to a Lombardi trophy? And the framing was kind of similar to what happened with Matthew Stafford in L.A. And I think this is kind of unfair to Matthew Stafford, but it was, okay, you have blue-chip quarterbacks or you have a red-ship quarterback with blue moments.

And if you have enough of those blue moments in the playoffs, you can get there. Even if you're an, it's an imperfect quarterback and an imperfect team. I think in a couple years since, I've come to think of Matthew Stafford as a slightly different level than these guys in terms of overall ability, but I understand that thought process.

The problem with that thought process is, that's a narrow window that you're living in. You have to thread a needle that's really, really hard to thread. So I get it as you're a coach, talking yourself into that path, but at the same time, I think you have to be honest with yourself

about how difficult it is to follow that path when you're having to beat Patrick Mahomes at the end of all. And you're trying to strike lightning essentially, because you're also, you're betting, on or banking or crossing your fingers that that red chip quarterback has those blue moments and he doesn't run into a blue chip quarterback having blue moments, you know, and so. And they typically

are there in the playoffs. Exactly. And so I think that's, you know, kind of where, where you sit with Dallas. And it's because, you know, Robert, if you had, if we had, you had asked me this conversation, which is oddly enough that I feel this way, and you had used Jared Gough instead of Kirk Cousins. I think in my gut, I would probably tell you, You know, Dak Prescott might be a more talented player than Jared Gauth. And I probably have a better viewpoint of Jared than some people. You know, when he's clean, he could throw as good as anybody. But then the flip side is when Jared's gone to a Super Bowl,

Jared's going to an NFC championship game. I understand there's variables attached to that when it means he was Sean McVeigh. He was in, you know, Detroit with Ben Johnson, with the best offensive lines in football. And it's just, I think, you know, with these situations, if you're the Detroit lines, you, you sit there and go, well, we expect Jared Goff to lead us back to an NFC championship game again. And maybe the conversation is different in two years that his salary will be so much more expensive.

It's not perfect for these situations. That's the hard part for these organizations. It's when they know they have a good quarterback, you have to pay him more if you are content with being good. The thing is with Jared Goff is that this is a different part. in the trajectory of the Lions franchise. Even if you're looking at a spreadsheet, I can understand landing on Jared Goff at $53 million is not great value.

But sometimes you skimp on the value when you're growing, you're building, when he's been a part of that, when he's been a central part of your culture, the Lions arrow is pointed up, theoretically. It should be. The Cowboys, it feels like we're getting to the end of something

rather than being at the beginning of something. And that's why I think it's a little bit different. And on the other side of this, Jared Goff, even if it's $53 million, I think that we have to start talking about this stuff more as a percentage of the cap than a single number. Sure, because it's growing. Jared Goff, and his number right now at $53 million is 20.75% of the salary cap. I don't think DAC would take $53 million a year. I think he would want something that was more in line with the top of the market and the way that he's negotiated in the past. And if you're going at the top of the market in terms of percentage of the cap, Joe Burrow was at 24.47 when he'd,

got his deal. 24.47% of the current salary cap is $64 million a year. That's not what Jared Goff is making. So that's my question is what is Dak going to want? Because if he wanted Jared Goff money, I'd probably be inclined to give it to him. But everything about the way that they've negotiated in the past leads me to believe that he's not going to want that. Robert, real quick, what is Kirk Cousins percentage-wise of the cap?

Because that's a great point is sitting there going, because Dax also, really smart and so are his people. Jack knows he's going to get a gazillion dollars, whether it's from the Dallas Cowboys or somebody else. He just watched the guy that is relatively comparable and Kirk go get $100 million plus guaranteed in $180 million deal. So if you're that party, you're sitting there going,

well, I don't need to bend the need to you organizationally. And if you're the organization, and that's why at the end of the season, after the loss, I'd said, you can't make the decision coming off of this season and looking at the success of this season, I would have been looking into the foresight and the future and saying,

I'm just going to have to run into these almost impossible decisions within the next year through Dallas Cowboys. And now in many ways they're stuck. Yeah. The Kirk number is 17.6% of the cap. So it is a significant step down from those guys that are at the top. But again, if I'm Dak's people, I'm negotiating from a different place, and he's four years younger and has played at an MVP level as recently as last year.

Kirk is 35 coming off in Achilles getting that contract. So even if their play on the field, and I do think DAC is better, but even if their play on the field puts them in a similar tier, I think that you can make a strong argument for why DAC deserves more money. I'm curious on your side of this. What do you think it is specifically about, DAC as a quarterback that is kind of holding you back

from just saying, yeah, write the check, I think he's one of those guys. Yeah, I don't believe it's probably two ways. I don't believe that when the team has needed him to go be great in big games, like difference maker, you know, that some of

those handful of quarterbacks that we've seen be, I don't think that I have a ton of evidence of him being that. It's specifically, yes, in the playoffs. I think three out of his last four playoff games, he just has not performed. And I understand two of them are against the really good defenses in San Francisco. But if I'm paying 20 plus percent of the salary cap, my expectation is that, you know,

we win those games because of you. And that's what's holding me back. I've always believed he was a good player. I just never have believed that you're going to cost me $10 more million than I want to spend, but you'll make up for it when it matters the most with your play. And I know that there's only five or six guys in the NFL that are those guys. That's what my holdup is on. Yeah, but I think that if there are five or six guys like that,

but there are a bunch of other guys, five or six typically in any given time, that are on those rookie quarterback contracts that allows you to build this sort of team where you can potentially go toe to toe with those five or six guys that are waiting for you in the playoffs. That's the other path here. That's the path that the Vikings took. And it's the path that several other teams have taken. to pretty good effect recently. My thing with DAC is,

I'm fine with moving on from him as a practical exercise, where you're sitting back and saying, what is our best path? I just think, and I've said this a bunch of times of the course of this spring, I would try to get something for him

because the idea of him walking away for nothing is so difficult to stomach because you're probably going to be in a place, and I think you're even further down on them than most people are, but let's say in a pessimistic world, they win eight or nine games this year.

You're picking 16th, 17th, and it's going to be really hard for you to find your next guy. If you had gone to DAC as this offseason started and said, hey, we both know that this is probably run its course. Why don't we figure out a solution here? And you could get a first or you could get something for him, and you could walk into next year's draft with a little bit more ammunition, that off ramp is a lot easier to navigate than the way that you're trying to do it right now.

And it's justified, you know, and Robert, this is exactly why I said what I said, what I said. It wasn't this hate train on Mike McCarthy or Dak Prescott. It was just the reality of looking at the situation being like, and there was some disappointment, obviously, in the way that it ended, even for me as a person who's my job is, you're going, this happened again in this fashion. And I know that there's a no trade clause. But when you, you know, business is business. If you're the organization and you go to him and say, well, unless something changes dramatically, this is going to be our plan. how do we, you know, and I know it's never as easy

than I'm sometimes making it sound, but how do we make this work for you, but for us, because this is the end result, because here, just spinning it forward, Robert. All right, so this team is, this team at the end of November is, let's call it a 10 and 3 or something like that. You're not 10 and 3 because your quarterback's playing bad. Okay, so then you're, if you're, the Cowboys,

you're preparing for your quarterback. to ask for $65 plus million a year from you. So you are either going to then have to rerun this cycle that you are just going through now or exactly what you're saying is he's going to walk coming off of another really good season and you're going to get nothing for him. The last thing I'll ask you about this,

let's say they do move on. Let's say he walks at the end of the year for whatever reason, either because they don't want to meet his price or because they fell a little bit short. your CD Lamb or your Tyler Smith, you're Micah Parsons, and your organization is willing to walk away from a guy that has played really good football over the last couple years and stretches and has been the face of your franchise

in a lot of ways. How do you think the locker room response to something like that? I always say that the locker room, the response will be whatever the relationship is with those guys, truly. I think we all believe that he's got great relationships. relationships within that locker room. You don't really hear anything differently. So if that is the case, you're going to have a locker room, whether they believe business is business, you're going to have a locker room that's going to be upset. You're going to have a locker room that's going to be disappointed. You're going to have a locker room that's going to be asking your organization and in its leadership, a lot of questions of one, well, who's going to be the person who leads us at that position in the future. And then two, if he played the way he did and handled himself the way he did and represented us the way he did, why is he not here?

You know, and that's, you're going to have a lot of questions from a lot of really important players. If that friendship and relationship is what we kind of believe it is, then you're going to have a lot of questions on your hands. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating how it plays out because let's say they do decide to not pay him and they're dealing with a rookie quarterback contract or they're skimping at the position. Even after they pay Parsons, even after they pay Towers, even after they pay Towers, like the Vikings, they're still going to have a lot of money to throw around potentially if they end up

going the young cheap quarterback route. The difference is this team has shown no willingness to be aggressive on the open market over the past few years. And that might be a product of paying your quarterback as much money as they have and they don't have the financial flexibility necessarily. But we've never seen them operate in that sort of world because think of the modern Dallas Cowboys. They went from Tony Romo to Dak Prescott and they had a certain level of quarterback and a certain

level of expense at quarterback since I've been paying attention to them in this sort of job. So it would be such a bizarre experience to kind of see them on the other side of it. But if they move on from him, that's where they would be. Yeah. And the other element attached to this is organizationally and publicly, there will be high expectations for this football team this year, 12 wins, three years in a row. I do not believe it's a 12 win roster. I just don't.

But we all know who that'll get pinned on. it'll be the quarterbacks not playing good enough. And then you're sitting there, you know, as an organization and a football team, having a lot of success, but nothing to show for it. Yeah, it's almost one of those things where it, I know I can't do this. But even if they're winning a bunch of games, part of me just wants to tell everyone straight away. I can't talk about them until December. I just, I can't do it.

It just doesn't feel like it's useful. Like, we're all wasting our time and energy by hemming and hauling about what this team is before we get to January because none of this matters. Yeah. It's also too, Robert, like if you just did an exercise and you said, hey, head-to-head important game, you know, got to win it. And you put that, like if you just took Dak and the Cowboys and you put them up against, you know, Jordan Love and the Packers, who do you like better in that situation? And I know this is June and whatnot are the same. if you put them up against Matthew Stafford and the Rams,

if you put them up against Brock Purdy and the 49ers, if you put them up against Jalen and the Eagles, that's why I sit there and go, do you put them as the favorite in any of those situations, Jared Goff and the Detroit lines? I don't think you do, at least comfortably. So here's my counter to that. I don't disagree with you,

except for maybe the Eagles, because I think there's such a huge question mark. But the other four that you said, think about the play callers and the offensive infrastructure in place with those other four teams. Matthews, Matt LaFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh, Ben Johnson. I mean, these guys are four or probably the best five or six offensive play cards in the entire league.

So that's my thing about DAC is, what if we put DAC in a situation like that? What if we really never have seen DAC in a spot where he's been given the best chance to succeed? And if you're Dallas, and you sign him to an extension, you pay him that shitload of money, and you get maybe one of those guys in there if you move on from Mike McCarthy, is that combination of circumstances, the thing that can eventually get you over the top? And are you going to regret moving on from him if you can land one of those coaches? We don't know.

Totally. That's kind of what I went back to in the Kirk Cousins comparison. It's like, yeah, probably, I would probably place Kirk as maybe a better performer or producer. But, you know, he's also had the who and the what as better supporting situations. All right. Let's get to Trevor Lawrence here because I think this is

just as interesting and just as media of a discussion. I think it was a couple of weeks. You said that Trevor was not among your top 12 quarterbacks in the league. And I think that that is fair. And I think that there's something behind that. When we did our quarterback draft recently, I think he went like seventh. And I understand how that happens as well because there is a certain sphere of the football internet that absolutely loves Trevor Lawrence.

And I am guilty of being a part of that pretty often. Some of that is an overreaction to the hate that he gets. And I think it's a, everyone needs to slow down. This guy's actually pretty good. I'm wondering where you are with him just as a player right now. Yeah, I still think Trevor is an elite talent. I don't think he's become an elite NFL quarterback yet. I don't, you know, that clip that went, you know, and made it to waves, I didn't put a number on it.

It was just my pushback because it was the conversation around his contract. And I said, wait, we can't put Trevor into the elite quarterback conversation just yet. I think two things that, you know, us who talk about this have to adjust right now is one, is he a top five quarterback? That's in a general question. We have to change five to ten because there's so many really, really good ones. You know, like to leave somebody out of your top five, you're leaving out a guy that's just remarkably good.

So, you know, we can't just put anybody in there. And so my point with Trevor was this. When it just comes to like what he is as a player so far, I don't think no matter what it is, he's not going into year four, he's going into year three. Year one in the NFL never happened. two years ago, here we go. Like, this is the guy.

This is the big step. This was that number one pick. The best is Andrew Luck, all that stuff. And then last year, we just didn't get that out of Trevor. We did it. There was moments of it, but we didn't. And, like, Robert, I can't sit here and talk about Dak and say, hey, I think he's good and been really good, but he's never really had these stretches of great.

And then come on here and say, man, Trevor Lawrence is great because I loved him at Clemson. Or I love them to come out of school. So I still think he's an elite talent and a very young player. I do not believe that he has ascended into the, hey, we're winning a lot of football games because this guy's our quarterback conversation just yet. I was ready for it to happen. I remember going back last off season and watching the second half of the 2022 season and being like, this guy is going places.

I mean, the Baltimore game was kind of that first moment, but there were plenty of moments over the second half of that year. I think they really had tapped into something with that offense and the way that those pieces fit together. And I think this year was a significant step back on a bunch of different fronts. And something I don't think I've talked about enough or thought about enough in why they struggle with.

He was hurt, right? He was banged up for a huge majority of the season. He was running more last season to start the year. And then the knee injury happened. And like when he was running, because that's been one of my things since college. I've always been like, dude, you're such a big athletic dude.

Be more less, less, less. programmed and quarterback trained and more just freak-affeting Josh Allen-y type stuff. And we saw a little bit of it last year. And then the knee injury happened. And then Christian Kirk's injury happened. And he never got on the same page with Ridley consistently. And they couldn't do it in the red zone. And so, yeah, there was a couple combinations and variables to why I sounds like feel the same

way about Trevor's you. My thing when I look at what they did on offense last year is the first place that I go is the infrastructure issues. they could not run the football in early downs. They were terrible at running the ball in early downs. The amount of times they turned the ball over and where they turned the ball over. Some of that is him, but it's not just him.

You think about some of the devastating fumbles and drops that they had, the amount, the lack of production they had on which should be gimmee completions. Screens of all kinds. It was a broken offense in so many different ways. The stat I was re-watching the Tampa game this morning. And I looked this up because

there was a couple different moments when they were playing the bucks where they just could not pick up anybody while they were blitzing. So I was like, okay, on plays where the Jags were blitzed last year, and Trevor didn't get rid of the ball in less than two and a half seconds, where he actually had to hold on to it for a second. What was his pressure rate? It was dead last in the NFL. 77% of the time in those situations, he was pressured. So if he didn't beat the blitz, they were pressured when they were blitz because of their inability to pick stuff up. And that's just like one small example

of why the structure of that thing was a problem. But even when I moved beyond that stuff, I like him. There are so many moments where he's throwing a ball outside of the numbers. That's a timing route, and it looks gorgeous. It looks gorgeous. And his best throws,

and I love throwing crossers over the middle of the field. Like, the way that he can push the ball in those situations, it looks as good as anybody. But there are certain moments with him, and I think that you touched on it. I want him to be a little less robotic. and I've wanted this for years. And that's why I think some of the best moments from him

and some of the things I like the best is when they use him on like deeper play action shots because I think it puts him in a place where he's playing looser. And so I don't know what to do with the whole package because there's so much there that I like that kind of my default answer to this is, well, yeah, he's good enough for you to pay.

But then there are elements of it where I understand why people can't get all the way there with him. Yeah, and I honestly don't think either party, and this is what I said, like, should be running to get the deal done. Because from Trevor Lawrence's perspective, unless they're giving you that crazy amount of money type of thing, of course you go do that. But I'm living in a world where organization they're not going to right now. So you're coming off of one really good, one okay. So you got a new player in Brian Thomas. You didn't get on the same page as Ridley.

Like, I'm not running because I want to go have my best season heading into. contract talks. And if you're the Jags, if I feel a certain way and you feel, they're smart. So they're probably sitting there and going, yeah, there's a lot that we like, but we want to see more. Or we're going to pay you this. But for you to get paid what you're probably going to ask, like, we want to see more. And so, you know, I think that, you know, when I call a couple of their games over the past couple of years, I love Trevor. No one's a big fan of Trevor's than mine. but one of the things I always have battled when it comes to them is I think there are teams that we have clear understandings of like this is their identity

and Jacksonville doesn't have one they don't have a foundation part of me at times likes that part of me because then you're really hard to figure out like how do you want to play them you know and so there's not a ton that you can lean on when it comes through the repetitiveness of who they're going to be but there's also times where I don't like it because Because when going gets tough or you've got to get into a rhythm or nothing's working, like, what do you turn to? And something that shocked me today because we're going to do a little bit of it on live today is he was really good versus zone as a quarterback. He was awful versus man.

And there's parts that are attached to that, you know, you got to win, you got to separate, you got to get open. You have to throw with a little bit of anticipation, something I want to see better at it. So I just think it's very much so the early part of his career. And that's why I just don't, I don't believe that either party or sides of the party needs to rush it. Yeah, I think that's fair. And on the team side of it, typically the downside of waiting is the market is going to get pushed up even more and you're going to regret it. But I look at this. And this is something I was thinking about this morning.

Who are we worried about going to the bank in the next nine months before he would get? this sort of contract. Maybe Josh Allen signs a new one because he signed his three years ago, but that's a deal that, you know, it's only been four years. Maybe they're contentious kind of letting this ride out. Mahomes just had his moved a little bit, so there's a chance that they let that play out a couple more years. And Dak is really the only guy that's kind of up for a deal.

So there's a chance that if he does hit free agency and he's got a couple suitors and he plays well, maybe that thing gets jacked up to $60 million plus and the Jags are sitting there being like, man. You know, we could have had them. For 56, we had a dollar over the borough number and we would have been fine. Now we're paying more. But I do think that that cost benefit is not necessarily in your favor. It might be worth waiting because who really cares?

What do you really lose if you wait one more year? Exactly. You know, maybe Jordan Love and Tua. I don't know if those guys are. Jordan Love is a good example, too. I didn't think about that. Yeah. Yeah.

But I always, because I absolutely am aware that you want to get them in as early and as cheap as possible. If you are stone cold unquestioned, yeah, type of thing. I don't know if Jacksonville is there yet. And I don't think that's a bad thing. And while waiting might cost you a couple more dollars, being convicted about it and having clear confirmation about it is probably worth that three or four, five million dollars here as long as you draft well. And so now if you asked me to spend this forward a year, Dan. Does it get done to a fair number? Does Trevor's play justify it? I would bet money on it. That, yes, it does because he's too talented and he works too hard and he's got too good a character for it not to. But just because he was the number one pick and he's super talented,

it doesn't mean that we place him into that, hey, this guy's one of these six difference makers at that position. I'll be curious to see what the offense and what the supporting cast ends up looking like because I think some of the things that they did make sense. Going out and getting a guy like Mitch Morris kind of as like an instant fix in the interior of the offensive line and just giving you one more set of veteran eyes and a stabilizing force in the middle of that offense. I think that's worth doing. The Brian Thomas thing, I like Brian Thomas. And it might take a while before he becomes the sort of guy that you spent a middle of the first round pick on or a top 25 pick on, but I think it can get there. It'd be hard in my opinion for everything around him to be worse in 2020.

than it was in 2022. And that's why I think if you're Trevor, you have to feel pretty good about which direction this is probably headed. Yeah, and banking on yourself a little bit, as long as you believe that Brian Thomas Jr. has got the chance to be a really impactful rookie. And Christian Kirk was playing at a high level

before he had his abdominal strain. I just, we often live in this world at these positions where it's like, gosh, we've got to get this done. It's like, why don't we just let him play a little bit and continue to develop and grow a little bit and let's see kind of where it all settles after his, you know, fourth year playing,

but really third year in the NFL. We're talking about this a little bit, but I'm just curious, kind of what holds you back about him, the nuts and bolts of who he is as a player. You mentioned some of that. I want you to play a little bit freer, a little bit looser.

Is there anything else about him that you feel like there's a little bit of a gap between where he is and where you want to see him? You know, it's probably I want to see Trevor be the second half with a playoff game two years ago and more, where he just took over. You know, that's, it's okay for us to sit here and say when these guys are drafted at certain spots

or they're paid a certain amount, like they take over football games. And there's the time and the place to do it. But that's probably a 20% for me. It's 80% of, I would imagine you've stood next to him before. I mean, he is every bit. He's five.

He's too much. He's freaking huge. But then he moves like, you know, this 5 foot 10 180 pound point guard in many ways. And so it's it's really more of, you know, it's a great trait that Trevor has this, that always wanting to, he's like the coach pleaser type of player. Like I always want to coach, you tell me how to do it, I'll do it. And there's, there's great, that is a great quality. But there's also the like, dude, I'm just going to make, I'm just going to figure out a way to get done type of thing. And I want more of that.

I love that you're saying this because I think if we're, there are two guys. in my opinion, that there is a distance between how the football watching public sees them and how the football media sees them and talks about them. And those two guys are Trevor Lawrence and Justin Herbert. And I think that both of them suffer from this same thing, where there's a little, there's a little bit too much of this is what I'm supposed to do within this play, and I am going to do this. And with Justin, I think a couple of years ago, you saw it even a little bit more,

where he's getting to these checkdowns so fast, so fast, so fast. And it's not the wrong play, but there are moments where I'm, just like, I just want a little bit more ambition out of you. Like, be willing to be wrong a little bit more often than you are. The problem is, I think a lot of this is driven by a lack of faith in past protection. I think that's crept in for both of them. So I'm kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth. I're like, I want you to be a little bit more aggressive, but I also understand that no one can block in front of you. So it's unfair of me, I think, in some ways. Well, yeah, but the reality is this, too. Like, you're not going to use your boldness, you're aggressive, you know, and I

think both of those guys are talented enough to win a Super Bowl. And so, like, you, you never want, I'll never forget it. Coach, you never want to take stingers away from the super talented, you know, and I would tell you, like, that's probably one of the things that helps Stafford go win a Super Bowl with the Rams. Throughout that whole crappy stretch, he never became the crowd, or the coach-pleasing player. It's funny because I think, and I don't know how much you were paying attention then this year, I'm sure a lot because of your relationship with Matthew, but I think that, Darrell Bevel year in Detroit, where they were just chucking it. That was a moment that I honestly felt was kind of important for him because he was coming

out of that stretch where it was the Joe Lombardi, Jim Bob Cooter stretch, where it was a lot of checkdowns. They were living underneath. And you have this guy who has one of the 10 best arms probably in the history of the league that is down near Drew Brees and Alex Smith that average depth of target. And I think that there were a couple moments in that Bevel year where I was. was like, oh man, like this is what this can be. And it almost felt like a precursor to what we ended up seeing when he went to LA.

Yep. Push the envelope and let's see how great you, like, you're uniquely and rarely talented, Justin, Trevor. Like, we got to push the envelope more. And I'm curious whether the Jags coaching staff sees that. I think that there is an element of them that they do. You talked about them having no identity and being a little bit spread too thin. I think they're aware of that.

I think they're going to pare down the run game a little bit. and I do think we're going to see more opportunities for them to take some shots this year. And I hope that that gives us a version of Trevor Lawrence that has a little bit more Matthew Stafford and a little bit less late career Drew Brees to him. Yeah, a little gun-sigger to it, for sure. Yeah.

I got to run to do SportsCenter, brother. You do your thing, man. That's the last thing I was going to have. I appreciate your time. We will talk to you soon. Good to connect, champ. All right, guys. That's all we got.

Thank you so much, Dorehim Morris. Thank you so much, Dordaunovsky. Really enjoyed chatting with both of those guys. We will be back on Thursday with our next lingering question show. This is going to be about the NFC West. Obviously a very juicy division. A lot of contending teams, some really fascinating changes, the upstart Cardinals. This is one of the divisions I was most excited to do.

So looking forward to digging into that. Looking forward to you guys hearing it. That's all we got for today. Sincerely, I appreciate you listening. We will talk to you very soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.