The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Rams crush Cardinals, Matthew Stafford gets a playoff W & what's next for Arizona

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

Following the final Wild Card matchup of the season, Robert Mays and Nate Tice react to the Rams big win over the Cardinals, Matthew Stafford's performance, the ceiling for this Rams team and looking to the Bucs before looking at the whole of the Cardinals season, Kyler Murray and what Arizona can do to improve on 2021 + some quick thoughts on the Raiders GM opening. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me tonight is my good friend, Nate Tyson. Nate, how you doing, buddy? Doing well, the trifecta of nights. We joined the NFL with this super wildcard weekend, and we get to see Troy Reader lead the Rams to victory.

I was laughing so hard when he made that play. I was laughing so hard. I was going to make a joke about it on Twitter. It's like, you know what? Trying to be nicer. Not even a Troy Reader. Just, No.

Putting that stuff out in the world, I always have reservations about it. It was mostly about you. And the fact that Troy Reader made a huge play in this game. You were the only person I could think about in that moment. I got tagged about three or four times. That's, it's about, Troy Reader is a new guy now. Just keeps swimming with him. But it's, yeah, it's a mere Smith, Marcette.

And it's Kendrick Bourne. And it's Troy Reader now. Troy Reader for the wrong reasons. Yes. For the wrong reasons. So one time. all time. We're going to talk about the Cardinals' future a little bit later on this show. I think that coming out of that game, that's the most interesting aspect of this in my mind. Let's kind of just

go through what that game was like. I mean, just an absolute beatdown from the first possession. You know, when we go through these games and one of the little sections that we kind of unofficially hit is, you know, when did it turn? When did it feel like the game kind of flipped? This was, it felt like that the whole time. Yeah. From the first time, the Rams scored into that second possession that the Cardinals had, it just felt like the Cardinals were on the run the entire game. And the Rams offensively, after that first drive, just pulling all the right levers at all the right times. Yeah, the fade ball felt like an exclamation point. Like just it really did.

Here we go. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It was like, yeah, we, that was casual. Like, that's kind of what it felt like. It was like everything leading up to that and just staff were going exactly to the right spot with it. That's what it felt like. And this was the first time I've really.

In a while, maybe since early in the season, that the Rams defense felt like they had speed. Like, they actually, like, were playing fast. They were playing, like, very assure of themselves, especially compared to last week against the 49ers. And it was like, oh, yeah, this team has a lot of good players. They, maybe not the safety position, but they, you know, guys perform tonight. But it didn't matter tonight at all. But it's like, with this offense and just seeing their big players make big time plays, the Vaugh Miller, OBJ finally getting into the game.

And that makes so much sense. And it was just also seeing KMakers in the run game like kind of exploding a little bit. Seeing all the different ways that this team can attack you offensively, defensively, it's like, oh, yeah, this Rams team, they can make noise. They can do stuff. And yeah, it looked really good tonight. This is a reminder to me of this game. The playoff games are comprised of four, five, six moments. You know, that's usually what swings these things.

And when you're a team like the Rams, we can have conversations about value till we're blue in the face, about some of the moves the Rams made and how much they paid for Matthew Stafford, how much they paid at midseason for Von Miller, whatever. This is about stacking up guys who are mismatches and matchup problems. If you can find those four, five, six plays over the course of a playoff game where you have these mismatches, these splash play creators, these guys who can ultimately rise above and make some of those plays for you, it goes a long way at this portion of the season.

And you can just list off the Rams that made plays like that tonight, right? Like OBJ going to get that fade, he snatches that ball out of the air. That is not a play that any receiver in the world can make. Plug-in replacement level X. That's not that type of play. That's why you go get him. Von Miller has a sack today. A couple big plays against the run, a big TFL.

Again, splash-like plays. And then obviously Stafford, right? When you go get Stafford, I mean, it's so easy to look at an EPA chart and look how up and down they've been and just kind of see what they paid for him and say, is this worth it? And then you watch a game like tonight and you just see some of those throws, some of the backside digs being in play again, just how many times he's able to wait for something on the backside to come open or. come all the way through and hit something late because of the arm strength. This is just a reminder again of just how much it opens the offense, how much the book expands because he's there. So when you watch this game, who knows what's going to happen against the bucks next week?

Who knows that they ultimately win the Super Bowl? But you can understand why, if you're less need in Sean McVeigh, you think, look at this. Look at the monsters that we have. In these moments, it's going to be important. And tonight felt like that. when you can get an entire defense to just stop running man coverage because they're just so terrified of what you have. Like that's such a feather in your cap, just such an ace up your sleeve. And that's what it, that's what it is.

Because so much in football comes down to, hey, what's make the other team make a play? Whether it be the other team's quarterback or the DBs to defend you, the pass rush to get home, some way, shape, or form. And with like tonight, like you say, you could see this is where the stars come to play. like the fade ball. That's a one-on-one, true one-on-one, no help. That's the only throw Stafford had because they're double-team in Cooper Cup. The other routes were meant to beat Zone. That's what the trip sides for. So this is why you get an ex-receiver. And also the other Cooper Cup, the Cooper Cup touchdown, when Stafford kind of like half rolled on it against cover zero. I mean, that's what throughout the league. I mean, think of the Ravens versus the 49ers in the Super Bowl, New Orleans when the lights

went out. The last three, four plays were cover zero, cover zero, cover zero, cover zero, cover zero. zero because what they're doing is hey we're making the quarterback make a play he has to be right with his read and then he has to deliver a throw well you see how stafford he's not going to scramble if you see lamar jackson playing against that he's going to try and break contain all the way around but instead stafford's just like do a little half roll throws a sidearm throw cooper cup just as he's turning his head he's winning his one-on-one and that's why you have the stars it's if they want to post a one-on-one situations we're going to make them pay and that's what the rams are trying to do they're going to make you try and play basic and the like and when you see with that when

the Cardinals had to play basic, the run game benefits. Everybody else gets the benefits because what the stars bring. The run game was fun to watch. I mean, the burst that Acres has is wild. Six months. It makes absolutely no sense coming off in Achilles to look like that. And the offensive line I thought played well. Really good job of climbing to the second level throughout the game.

You know, guys getting free releases and getting up there. I mean, everybody had, to the point that Austin Corbett almost blew out Andrew Whitworth's knee because he banking the guys so hard on the first drive of the game. And there was a lot of that. You know, Brian Allen, I think, had a couple nice plays in space climbing to the second level. They had some splash runs in this game.

And you combined on offense for the Rams, the sheer talent level that they have at some of these positions, with, again, McVease seeming like he was pressing all the right buttons. He knew in those first few drives, exactly what he wanted. That first play that sticks out in my mind, cup and OBJ are stacked on the right side. They send cup in jet motion, play action,

and they have the leverage on that outside. corner now and OBJ runs the little post behind it and splash play. It's like, all right, if we're going to be smashing the easy buttons today, then it's going to be a long, long day. On that same drive, they high load Isaiah Simmons with cup and then Higbee came behind it on a little dig, made it easy. And then they set up the fade over the touchdown. And the cool part about the fate is they ran a similar look inside the five the last time these two teams played. Slant, right? And they ran a slant. So it's just again, being one step ahead. And And it kind of felt like they were one step ahead the entire game.

Yeah. When the Cardinals were playing too high a lot on base downs, it seemed like on run downs, first and second down. And that's why you saw the Rams starting to get to weak side zone, which is open side zone away from the tight end. If you ever see a zone run play, it's weak side zone, week away from the tight end. And you can get to that run if it's a light box, if the safety is not going to rotate down. And a lot of times you'd see the Cardinal safety on the best.

backside kind of feigning like, well, I'm coming down. I'm coming down. But another hint, if you ever look at the linebackers where they're shifted over, if they're bossed or bowed over, then you can, the safety usually fills that void. But the Cardinals linebackers were just standing there. So the safety's doing all the up and down, up and down. And Stafford's like, uh, kill kill. We're going right at it. And they would just, you know, or can't can for them. But they would just go, you know, to the weak side zone. And that's why they're able to get to that. That's what's been fun this year, as you've seen against the bills. The, the Colts did the same thing. because the bills would have two high safeties.

And, you know, they were running away from that safety coming down. So it was cool to see that. They ran the split zone a little bit. It was just, it was like a vintage Rams run game performance. It was all the good stuff. Maybe not some jet sweeps to Robert Woods and Cooper Cup. But it was, it was, you know, the fun zone game, the split zones, the outside zones, the weak side zones, the windbacks. And that was really cool to see that element really to the forefront again.

Maybe not to the same extent, but kind of a similar vibe to what we were talking about with the bills after Saturday. night with a team that if you're going to get light boxes, which they have all season, can you make teams pay? Can you run teams out of them? Can you run the ball when they're telling you and forcing you to run the ball? The answer for the Rams recently has been yes. You know, when they kind of transition to Sony Michelle as that more physical, steady presence back there, that was one way of doing it. Now you have those five, six-yard Sonya Michelle runs turning into 14-yard Cam Acres runs and things suddenly start to get very interesting. Speaking of Acres, the one play that I stuck out to me, there was a play on their third possession

where they bought Brita Baker off the right side on a blitz. And I hope Bouda Baker's okay, by the way. I mean, that's just one thing that's going to stick with me. Really fun player, super smart guy, really thoughtful. I talked to him for that Cardinals defense piece I did earlier this year. I just really appreciated that conversation that I had with him. And such a fun player to watch. And his style of play is just really unique. And that both most most, moments are really hard to watch. So I'm thinking about him and I hope that he, everything we hear about that in the next couple days is okay. But he comes off the right side and Acres does a great job of picking it up. Great job. And when you blitz this Rams team, you're in trouble.

Yeah. At a certain point, you feel like you have to when they're moving the ball that easily. Yeah. But Acres picks it up. Stafford's reading the right side, doesn't like it, comes back to a little reverse whip to Higby on the backside of it. When they're playing like that, when they're blocking, and that stuff up and hitting backside in breakers as the last breaking case of emergency option. Yeah. That's when you're in a lot of trouble. And then on that same drive is when they hit the little spade wheel, whatever you want to call it to OBJ out of that little stack. Another just win by design.

When you're winning by design and your players are better, that's the result you see tonight. It's when you're getting to the number four read, I guess against the blitz. Usually we talk about blitzing a lot as quarterbacks go, what? One and done, right? Or one and scramble. Maybe get to the step you want to see is that they get to number two. But when you're getting to backside whips or the digs, those are number three, number four, and you're going against a blitz. Usually you're warm, quote unquote, quarterbacks are warm.

You're not hot, but you're like, okay, I know I got to get rid of this ball, but not the ramps. Nope. We're hunting for deep digs. That's where we see the tradeoff with rubberwoods and OBJ running, being on the backside. because that's kind of where the Rams would have them. A lot was being the backside guy in those deeper concepts. Van Jefferson or Cooper Cup would be the over guy. And is, okay, Robert Woods is a little more detailed with his routes,

but then OBJ catches the ball. And it's like, oh, my God. Yeah. It's a different level. And that's what's the tradeoff. It's like, yeah, he lacks some detail. But oh, my God, get the ball in his hands and just let him go. Because that guy moves at a different speed.

And when you, like, Stafford actually can get to those. throws in the progression of the play. And it's not just some designer play. Like, oh, we're just going to spam OBJ. That's so, so scary to get to per an offense. And they're doing it against blitzes, which is even crazier. Speaking of Blitz is that's what really stuck out to me about the Rams approach on defense. They were bringing fried man pressures all day.

Right off the bat. Right off the bat. And just little different flavors throughout the game. I love, so Eric Henderson is their defensive line coach. He's been there for several different years through a couple defensive coordinators. and I think that they've done such a good job of finding ways to get Donald one-on-one, right? Like, that's not easy to do when teams are so focused on him. But a couple different ways they did it in this game where they'll have three guys to the right side just to set up one-on-ones for him.

They'll have the nose on the backside cross the center's face so it sets up an artificial one-on-one. They'll bring five-man pressures. And they did that consistently in this game. I mean, even the Troy Reader sack is a five-man pressure, and they have the nose slant all the way across the center. So Reader's one-on-one with the back. They just had such a good handle of what the protection schemes were going to look like from this Arizona team and how to take advantage of them in those high leverage moments. And you can see how discipline they played. They were playing fast, but not out of control.

Totally. Which is always what you want in any type of sport. and it's such a difference from the first game that they played against the Cardinals in L.A. where it was like they were put yeah, hair was on fire, but they were running right past Kyler. It was like, Kyler was taking this deep dropbacks and so were the so were the pass rush lanes.

They were like 12 yards, 14 yards deep. Did you see that they were folding guys back behind every once in a while? It's debat them. It's on the non-twist side. Yep. So on the stunt side, they're trying to get home with the stunt.

And then it looks like he has the front door to go out of on the other side. but you have somebody folding back to me there waiting for him. It's a really good idea. And that's again, gets back to this idea in the playoffs. These are matchup games, man. If you got answers for a one whole game, this is what can happen.

You can just totally solve a team and make them look silly for 60 minutes. I mean, these two teams played in the regular season twice. Close games. It's not as if this is some crazy outcome. It's like, oh, man, I guess the Rams are just way better than the Cardinals. But these types of games, if you have the matchups, If you have the game plan, you can blow a team's doors off. And that's exactly what happened in this game.

One more person I wanted to mention on the defense, Leonard Floyd is such a weird player in a good way. Like, it just, he does so many things that aren't necessarily the way that a true $15 million edge rusher would affect the game, but he still affects the game. Yeah. Like the play where he forces the interception on the screen because he just blows up the right. tackle. That's just a length, power explosion thing. No finesse to that whatsoever. They're on, right on the same drive where Donald had his sack, they had a little stunt with Floyd and Gray Gaines, and Floyd just earhold the guard on the stunt. I mean, this is a small thing. Like most guys can do that, but just the physicality he plays with and just he's a super role player.

Like we say that a lot with super role players. He is the epitome of a super role player. I just noticed him in a bunch of different ways tonight. And bringing up the earhole on the games, that's exactly what it is. Like when you have one of those guys that's like, if he's your number three rusher, you're like, oh yeah. Exactly. It's like super role player is the best way to put it. It's like having a pass catcher that you're like, you know, he is not like you

don't want to have like 30 targets or you know, not 30, but 15 targets a game. But seven. Yeah. Now we're talking. That's the exact same thing. It's like you don't want him, you know, being soloed up like Aaron Donald and going like in designing everything for him. But you love him as the penetrator as like just kicking the right guard, right, right, knocking him over.

And that's exactly what you need those types of guys. That's what a good defense has. They have the stars, but then they have, you know, a couple of the other auxiliary guys are like, oh, yeah, he's pretty damn good too. But that really, too, it was Taven Howard, number 32. Like he had a couple plays tonight. And watching him, I want to say it was a 49ers game, him being in the box with Troy Reader because I couldn't stop staring at Troy Reader was he was in there as two because he's just, he's like a lighter body. He's like 2115. He plays in the box a bunch of times.

He works 32. So you're like, oh, he's a safety, but he's an inside linebacker. This Cardinals defense, it's a disaster with the numbers. They're trying to just screw with you at all times. I hate it. Oh, all the teams. Oh my God. Seeing the Rams, the corner, what's his face?

We're number 11. Darrys. It should be a crime. It should be illegal. I hate it every single time. Anyway. Same. I know.

I can't stand that. I know. Single digits is okay with corners. Like, I think we got to reestablish the numbering rules. Like we let it go too crazy to first year. because it hurts my brain because that's how you do personnel so many times. Even when they switch to like, oh,

winebackers can wear 40s. That sucked because you're like, oh, it could be a safety. 42. That could be a safety. And then you're like, because that's just the gaming for personnel's. But that's my quality control rant for the game. What did you like from him, though? Just, I mean, do you feel like?

Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Just got around the ball a few times. He had in coverage. He did a couple nice things. And that's why you want him in there when you're especially playing a team like the Cardinals that have so much.

speed. You know, they're built on that and being on the interior of the, of the defense. So like trying to attack that, that's where I thought the Cardinals would go against. So seeing him and just run around playing all these balls and stuff like that. It was really cool to see him in coverage because that's what you want him in there. He's 2.15. He's not going to be playing the run. So we'll see how it goes against the box next week when he has to play a little more loaded boxes.

So first glance at that game, I mean, this Rams offense is a different beast for Todd Bowles and the team. he just played against, right? You're not going to see a 40% blitz rate next week against this Rams offense if you're Tampa Bay the same way you did against Jaywin Hertz. It's a fun game. We've already seen it once this year. It feels like these teams are very different in a lot of different ways. But I'm excited.

I mean, this is the type of, it feels like we could have fast forwarded through a lot of this week and got to the matchups on next weekend. And I think this is exactly, exactly that. I'm just ready to watch this game and I probably didn't need to watch the Cardinals Rams game. It also just the question marks. It's not even like these teams. it's going to be fun to watch maybe this Rams,

like what are they doing this week? Because especially on defense and because it's going to be so funny, you're going against the box too. It's, okay, Worf's his game time decision. So, all right, so now how do the Rams configure their line?

Where does Ramsey, does he travel with Mike Evans? Like, does on the Debo kind of schedule? Like, that's going to be really interesting. Or does he stay in the inside, worried about gronk in the backs,

you know, get all the checkdowns and stuff. I know, there's just little tweaks like that. I'm just really curious. And also when we talk about stars, Tom Brady. That's all we need to talk about.

All right. It's time to talk about what happens next with the Arizona Cardinals because I think you could think of this in a couple different ways, right? You could look at what this Cardinal season was and say, it's a step up, playoff game, made the playoffs. Offense took a step forward. Kyle looked like an MVP candidate for a huge chunk of the season. Before they lose DeAndre Hopkins, they've definitely felt like they figured out a different year offensively. they lose him, they take a step back. Ultimately, season fizzles out, but things are progressing in the right direction. If we do this, do that, X, Y, maybe we can get over the hump next year.

We're building something. Or you can look at it and say, have we reached a ceiling with whatever this offense is, with the way they've built this team, with this current structure, are you really lying to yourself when you say, Kyler couldn't be more with different help or a different plan and he's too good for them to hit this sort of wall. I understand it both

ways, but I do think that's kind of the deep down existential question that the Cardinals are going to have to ask themselves this off season. Yeah, and when Cliff took over the team two, we got remember that roster sucked. That was a barren roster. It was a

barren roster. And then they got Kyle and that first year is whatever. Hey, I hope to see some fun. Let's see what happens. Last year started hot, trailed at the end of the year. You know, kind of tapered off to Kyle like I heard. It was almost deja vu this year a little bit. I haven't seen anything from Cliff. And I know I've been hard on this show several times, but I came around a little bit this year, was that there's no adjustments that happened throughout the season or the game. It just seemed Like a lot of the times we, they, it was playing a one page behind when things weren't going his way.

You know, beginning of the year, especially when they're, it's, they're blitzing teams offensively. They're just getting after them, wave after wave, but that's always been the joke. It's Kyler, go do something. You never know what their play is. We can say, oh, it's an air raid offense, but not really. I mean, you get the ball out quick. I guess that's a little aspects of it. Terminology.

I'm sure there's some carryover. They run mesh. I guess, you know, there's a lot of wide receiver screens. A lot of water. Oh, yes, to replace the run game. But then that was the thing, too, is they actually had a good run game, which that's a whole other discussion as well. So it just felt like to me it was just throwing shit against the wall, seeing what sticks? Hey, we got Kyle where we got DeAndjohn J Hopkins dunking on guys.

Okay, but then what? What happens when you get one arm tied behind the back? Well, how do you pivot? What's your new path to success? And if you want to be an offensive head coach and calling the plays, it's like, well, that's going to fall on you, however that goes. And it just seems like this roster is just, it's patch holes. Like, you know, JJ Watts, it's nice to seeing him come back. but it's like, is he a long-term building piece?

You know, a Rodney Hudson. Is that a long-term building piece? An A.J. Green. Like, just, it feels like this roster is like in a win now stage, even though Kyler is so young. And that's just such a weird dynamic to be in. It just feels to me it's the same issues that we've seen the three years with Cliff at the helm. But I also do think that the roster is a little rough. And I think whoever's going to be calling plays there, if it's Cliff still or whoever comes next, is it's the Kyler offense.

He has his limitations in certain ways, but it's, you know, it's exciting and everything, but is it going to be a lot of the Cowher offense or is there someone going to get in the ear and be that Matt LaFleur type that kind of bridges Kyler offense with other ideals and other like kind of concepts. Who are the five best players on the Cardinals? Like serious question. Like if you were thinking about the build outside of Cowher, if you were thinking about the building blocks, like the guys who are the foundation of the Cardinals roster who are the five guys. guys that you would say. So it's Buda Baker. Yep. Kiler. It's I mean, Deontaghan Hopkins, I guess, but he's what? Is he about to turn 30? Is he 29? Yep, about turn 30. The two first round picks from the last year, the linebackers aren't guys that you're like, oh, wow, that's going to be a future star. There's still question marks. I mean, for better, for worse, it's first and second

year. Zavon Collins and Isaiah Simmons, their corners are barren. I mean, it just is. Offensive line, D.J. Humphreys is fine. You know, he's a solid starter. the left tackle position. But other than that, on the offensive line, James Conner is your best back. You like Edmonds. But really, I'm trying to go over the whole roster in my brain right now to try and think a four and five right now. That's Christian Kirk.

Who's a free agent this year, by the way? And who's a free agent. And that's the thing is all their other guys, the Zach Ertz, the AJ Greens, all the other plus players are rentals, basically. They're not. They all went and got older rentals at a lot of these spots. And I think that you can see those older rentals with big names and think, oh, man, look at all the guys they added this year.

Yeah. But you look at kind of the underlying foundational aspects of the roster, the connective tissue that we talk about, and it's not that good. No. They haven't really developed any young in-house players. Buda Baker, but that was several drafts ago. You know, and Buddha is a really good player. I think DJ Humphreys is a success story in terms of you draft a tackle, you develop a tackle. But guess what?

That was 2015. Yeah, that was so long. He's going to be 30 soon. That was a long time ago. I was looking at Atlanta. There are, I mean, you look at it, and there are so many, and you can feel, and again, this happened years ago, but you can feel some of the barren drafts that they had, right? So 2016, they drafted Kim Dje in the first round.

I don't know why they didn't have a second round pick that year, but they didn't. And then Brandon Williams in the third round, Evan Bame in the fourth round. So that draft is just a no-dice. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Reddick in the first round the year after, who had one really good year in a contract year and is now all. So, and then I assume because, well, I'm trying to think of the deals they signed this year in free agency. They re-signed golden.

Well, they re-signed golden. JJ was cut. So they may get some sort of comp pick for Reddick. So maybe that you can construe that. But everyone else, the Buddha and then Chad Williams was in that draft. And then 2018, Josh Rosen in the first round, Mason Cole in the third round. And 2019, that's the Andy Isabella draft. drafted him 62nd, drafted

a keen Butler in the fourth round. Oh, yeah. So there are, and then you look at 2020 draft, you trade your second round pick for DeAndre Hopkins. Third round pick is they drafted Josh Jones. We all love that pick in the moment because everyone thought he was like a borderline first round prospect. He couldn't beat out Max Garcia for the right guard job this year.

So you look at it and then the linebackers are a perfect thing to bring up because that's the problem is that those guys have not developed into really really good players. And you draft these guys like an Isaiah Simmons hoping he'll be this matchup destroyer and he can't play linebacker. And that's, it's the problem when you invest those sort of resources in that position is that you don't need like a outstanding off the charts athlete to be a really good linebacker. It helps when it hits, but it's not a prerequisite. So when you spend all the draft capital they've spent at linebacker, all of the draft capital that they've spent,

where your defense has holes elsewhere. On offense, they drafted Rondell Moore as like a gadget player in the second round. Who chips releases right now. Understandable when you want to be this offensively. But then you roll out Max Garcia and Kelvin Beachham on the right side of your offensive line and you literally cannot block the Rams in a playoff game. And that's the problem is that when you look at, well, what do they need?

they need a lot of stuff. You know, they probably need another corner. Robert Alford is a free agent this year. Do you want to roll with Marco Wilson out there again? Maybe he takes a step forward. That's totally reasonable. But the offensive line, the right side absolutely needs work. There are so many different holes in the roster.

And the run defense, the fact that it's not very good at all when you've invested all of this draft capital and linebackers who can't consistently play off the ball and you fail to develop them, it's just when you look at the plan overall, it just feels like a lot of, oh, that's nice, ooh, that's nice,

ooh, that's nice. And you look at the cohesive nature of the roster, and I think that it leaves you wanting more. So what are they is, I think, a real question. They're putting their team together

by Madden overall rating. That's what they did. I mean, really, and that's exactly it. The two linebacker picks, okay, the Isaiah Simmons is you're betting on the talent

and you hope he figures it out because that, like you said, it's a matchup. I can understand that. I can understand that. It's a whole, They have fallen in love with so many of those guys.

So hybrid guys, right? That's what Reddick was. People can figure out he's the edge player. Was that? Yep. I think that's the thing is Buchanan and Tyrant and Honey Badger, Tyron Matthew kind of like warped their scouting process. They're like, no, we're going to find these hybrid guys.

He's in betweeners and we're going to hit on them because that's exactly, even if you, I don't know, Deionic Buchanan was a hit hit, but it made it work. He hit a couple years. Yeah, he hit a couple years. But just honestly, like getting Simmons and then Zavian Collins, they're trying to find places to get him on the field. He couldn't beat out Jordan Hicks and also they're putting him on the edge. He could beat out Tanner Vallejo in the second half of the season. He wasn't Jordan Hicks. Jordan Hicks was always playing. Yeah. But it was the fact that your first

round, what top 20 pick is not playing, you know, 50 plus snaps a game is a huge issue at a position that other teams are trying to get cheaper at. Like I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but I'm saying that's where you find these types of guys now is second and third round. So if you're taking a guy in the top 20, that guy better be playing 75% of your snaps. You know, honestly, just has to be on the field. And when you've spent two first round picks at that position, and you, those don't, those aren't monster home runs, you can see where it leaves the rest of your defense. Yep.

I think, you know, this team has some wiggle room and free agency. They have some money to make some moves if they want to. You know, Jordan Phillips is a big contract that they also had to restructure in order to fit Zach Ertz under the cap, but there's a lot of things going on here. But they'll, they have some wiggle room if they want to add a couple pieces. They have their full slate of draft picks. I'd have to assume they haven't really made any deals. They traded away their third round pick last year for Rodney Hudson.

There's another good example of this, by the way. Understandable in the moment. Yeah. It leaves you in a certain place. Yes. Yes. So can you rationalize the, all right, if we maybe go get a guard and free agency, if we try to draft the tackle, if that's where we focus our resources.

And from left to right, it becomes Humphrey's Pew, Hudson. free agent, free agent guard, X, draft pick Y at right tackle. You have DeAndre Hopkins back. You have Rondo Moore. We'll see what happens at those other receiver spots. You know, hopefully you can find somebody to fill one of those roles. And then next year, I think Chase Edmonds and James Connor are free agents.

So that's something you have to worry about. My thing is here is I try to talk myself into this. We're just spinning our wheels here. Yeah. Are you going to get there? And next year, this is going to be a nine and eight team. and we just went through this entire charade for nothing. That would be my concern.

Yeah. I could absolutely see that on the horizon, but after the season that they had, I feel like you kind of have to commit to this again. Yeah. It's almost a two-year plan. If you're buying back into it, you're like, hey, he's in here for two more years because he has to see this out. That's kind of what it is, though, because like you say, if they go nine and eight after

doing those types of moves, I like that plan, though. Nice job. Maybe you should be GM. But it was like, yeah, it's a nice. plan for like what that's really what they might hire the GM every single meeting would start with we need better offensive linemen so sign a guard free agency draft a tackle sign a guard for and take a receiver in the second round that's our that's your that's your team building strategy but honestly like really that's what it is and but say next year they go nine and eight or they squeeze

in with the seven seed you know and some of the guys the young guys actually look okay and this like now it's are you talking yourself into cliff again what if he hasn't adjusted what if kuy gets hurt. Kyler fades in the second half of the year and then you're kind of in this sandpit again. So I don't know if that's what you want or not. That's what's kind of like so weird about this franchise is that I could see them talking themselves into anything. The problem is one more year in the sand pit.

It's like, all right, it's one more year. Again, we've committed to this vision. We're a playoff team. You see what you can, what adjustments you can make. We're looking at 19, 20, 21, 22. was the first four years of Kyler's deal. So we're at 2023 now with him on his fifth year option. And you have poof.

Yeah. His cheap years and that advantage that you can create is up in smoke. So I think that's kind of the long look you have to, long conversation you have to have to have with yourself in the mirror. It's like, what are we doing? Where are we going? Are we really closer? Are, not even are we closer.

Because I think there can be two different things, right? You can be closer, but not. within real reach. Have we reached our artificial ceiling where even if we, on paper, all of the optics, we have improved, but we're really no closer to the ultimate goal because this group can't take us there. And I think that's the question that you have to ask. I don't know the answer.

I really don't. It's a tough thing because you look at what they've been and stretches this year and you look at what Kyler's been in stretches this year. And it's easy to talk yourself into. We're close. We're close. he absolutely took a step forward. The level he was playing at this year and, again, just some of the eye-popping plays that

he's capable making. The whole shot to AJ Green today. Yeah. That throw. Like those throws, his highs are as high as anybody's as a thrower, let alone what he can do with his legs and out of structure and all of that other stuff. So I can see your, I can understand talking yourself into it. I get how you just get there and the rationalization starts to pile up because of all.

all of that stuff. But at the same time, I'm wondering if you're twisting yourself in circles. And ultimately, you're going to be disappointed when it's this time next year, you've fallen just short of the playoffs and you wonder what we're supposed to do next. And it feels exactly the same. It's the third story.

It's the third season in a row where it feels the same. Yeah. And absolutely what you said about Kyler. That's even his intermediate throws throughout the year have gotten better, working operating from the pocket. It's he does, he makes his teammates better. And that's what they hit it.

Like he's a very, very, very good quarterback. It's now, do we keep running mesh out of empty every third down? Do we keep like, is that working? Is that, hey, yeah, Cowher's comfortable with it, but is it what you want? Where's the ceiling? What's ceiling are you building? That's what the Cardinals have to figure out.

I think this is him being that type of quarterback that makes his teammates better. He's a high level quarterback. Yep. I think you can look at it two different ways. And I think this is the question at the center of all of this. Do you say when you have one of those guys, you're always pretty close? It's worth the tinkering because why blow it up or why start over? When you have that at the center of it, you're always closer than you think.

Or do you go the other way and say, we have one of those guys. We have to get the most out of him. We can't have those kind of shackles on him where we're pulling him back in any sort of way. Because when you have one of those guys, you need to do everything you can. to be a top three offense, a consistent offense, like a world destroying offense. Yes. So I think you can look at it both of those ways and what they choose to do and the way they choose to look at, I think ultimately we'll decide how they approach this off season.

Yeah. That's when we were talking about the Jaguars, their offense or what they should do their next step. It's, hey, let's just build a superpower on offense around our potential star quarterback and then figure everything else out. And that's what you should do. You already answered the question with Kyler. he's he's borderline star quarterback like he is an heavy he was an MVP candidate for the first half of the year we're done we're good hey he can make teammates better he he lifts our bar every single week he can cover up us running five plays like and just make things happen out of structure okay why don't we

just build an identity where it's like hey let's just make this team a 40 point any week they could drop a 40 burger on somebody that's what it should be but now are they going to do it in a way where it's like hey let's get the like you said the shiny toys let's get the weapons for him even though he makes his teammates better. Or do we get like, let's protect him and like, let's make that better so we get the superpower. So we'll see.

We'll see. The Cardinals don't do anything normal, it feels like, so we'll see. This is the same franchise that took quarterbacks two years in a row. So I think we should, we definitely should have spent more time coming into the season, looking at the idea of the Cardinals rolling out,

Max Garcia and Kelvin Beachham as the rights out of their offensive line in 2021 as a real thing. Yeah. You know, Kelvin Beecher, by all accounts, is wonderful guy. I've had conversations with him in the past. Stellar marks from anyone who's ever come in contact with him. He has been a plug sort of offensive tackle for the last few years. Max Garcia were years removed from him being part of those teams in Denver. It's the fact that that's your right side with a quarterback you spent all of this,

all of these resources on. It's like, man, I don't know. I really don't know. And we just didn't think about it at all because, again, we got distracted by the shiny names. And it's easy to forget that the foundation of the house has cracks in it. Yeah. The most excited we got like me and you was, hey, oh my God, they got Rodney Hudson because

it was like, that was the first semblance. I was like, hey, they're putting competency around Kyler. That was my first like inkling of that. But then, yeah, like you say, also you see Garcia lining up at right guard right next to him. You're like, oh, no. And I mean, and when you go with Kyler too, having guard pressure is so much worse because he's shorter and how he wants to escape. He usually like to step up and out, you know, like, but now when you have guard pressure

pushing into him, that's just, oh, it just compounds errors. It's almost like you want the strong guards instead of the tackles with him. Yeah. So, I mean, those are the things they're going to have to consider. It's like, all right, what is this going to look like for us? And what do we really have to prioritize this off season? Before we get out of here, is there anything else you wanted to talk about with the Cardinals? Anything else you feel like you wanted to hit?

No, I think the defense was. fun at times this year. They kind of fell apart near the end of the year. Just kind of is what it is. It's hard to win with lack of corners. But I did a great job hiding it for a good chunk of the year. I thought the Vance Joseph did a really good job coordinating that defense this year. That's, that's us just breaking down the roster trying to list off five players. That kind of speaks to what he did, what Vance Joseph did, because we couldn't name a guy that's a building block that they have on that defense. So and, you know, the offense does do fun things, but it's just, it's hard to hold up for yes, you can get lucky for weeks, not lucky, but you can get some wins during a week, but it's hard to sustain.

And I think that's why they fall off in the second half of the year. It's just that they can't pivot. They can't find that new path, that change up, whatever idiom I've thrown out here on the show. But it's like they have, that's the struggle with Cliff, not only just in game, but throughout an entire season is finding that next answer when teams start taking away the number one answer on stuff. And also just overcoming the injuries. Okay, one guy, one receiver knocking you out or going out, DeAndre Hopkins, shouldn't cripple an entire offense. Now when you have that quarterback.

No. Exactly. If Kyler's out, okay, right. All right. Now we're talking. But yeah, it's just, it's very frustrating sometimes to watch it. But yeah, that's my obituary on the Cardinals for 2021.

One other guy I'll mention, I do like Jaywin Thompson. I think Jaylon Thompson is an interesting player that allows them to do a bunch of different stuff. I think he's had some really nice moments this year, even if he's also had some blows. But he's still a young player. All right.

Very quickly. One thing that has happened since the last time we recorded and since Mitch and I record the mailbag, which will also run tomorrow, just so you guys be on a lookout for that. Mike Mayak was fired. By all accounts in a very strange way, according to everything that's come out from Albert Breer

over the last few hours. He did not know that the scouts did not know. They were apparently requesting people for the GM job while the scouting staff was still working. Yep. Cool franchise. Good job, guys. What they do.

That's kind of what they do. They live in their own world. We talked about the Cardinals live in their own world. Right. The Raiders are, yeah, it's not La La Land, it's LV Land, LV Land, but it's kind of, that's just what it is. It's just their own, their own situation. They're their own franchise.

Anyway, they need a general manager. We talked about this a little bit. We don't have spent a ton of time on it. We talked about it in our Raiders post-mortem, the idea that the roster is kind of interesting, you know, I think that you could talk yourself into it because they do have some really good players at premium positions. You have quarterback play that. You don't always have when you're walking into a new team, a blank slate, a kind of a canvas.

And is it from a team building perspective? Obviously, you always have to consider the type of shit that happened today. Like, that's the consideration when you're going to take this job is that you have to worry about who's in charge. And you have to worry about the way they operate. And there are going to be hangups and challenges associated with that. But if you just look at the football side of it, I think it's a pretty interesting gig. it is a little room to work with you know and like you said it's not it's competent quarterback play which is not a lot of team look at all the other openings are happening right now a lot of question

marks at that position and that's the biggest you know GM head coach quarterback I mean do those are the three answers you have to fill out but like you said it's it's always it's always the ownership it's always started at the top you know you have that's the situation you go on when you're part of the raiders you know it just it is what it is but that so that also just that casts the whole in a whole new light because it's just it is what it is like that's just their situation they're not another normal football team but like you said just strictly football side and cap side they have their picks they have car they have like you say a couple interesting pieces with red fro um well during walrus getting a little older but they but they have some nice pieces throughout max crosbie

so it's it's a nice it's got some bait on the hook like as opposed to some of these other teams you look at and you're like oh man I like they got a middle pick they don't have stuff that can trade for a quarterback. I'm not sure if he's the guy. At least the Raiders, it's like, well, at least I have this answer or maybe we can find a better answer if we get created. And what can you get for the quarterback? If you want to trade the quarterback, there's also an option, right? Yeah. So there's a way to kind of stock the chest. And I feel like with the Raiders GM job, it's similar in my mind to the bear's GM job, right? Where the void of leadership elsewhere in the organization creates a need for that I hold the football vision. I,

the centerpiece of the football side of this organization. That's what they wanted Gruden to be. They understood that vacuum existed. So you try to go get a figurehead like Gruden was. Obviously, we know how that worked out. But you need a GM who's going to come in and isn't just like, I'm just going to be hold up picking the players at 2 a.m. in a dark room. That's not what this is.

This is the person who needs to be everything for that organization. Yes. unless they go get another coach that they think can be that, and maybe it's a hardball, whatever. But this is one of those franchises that needs somebody like that. There is no apparatus that's already in place where you just slot a head personnel guy in and he can just kind of put his head down and go to work.

They need something there. And I feel like those are the types of guys you have to be looking for with this job. Somebody who's going to set that vision for the organization. You mean being a head coach in the gym? GM isn't just picking players and calling plays. Like there's actually other stuff that goes into it. You'd be shocked about that. Wow.

Yeah. But that's exactly it. It's they need to be more than just, you know, just a ball coach or just a scout. Like that's what exactly it entails or a guy that can do all of it like you said. But interesting franchise, as always, the Raiders. They just, they never cease to be entertaining. I'll never forget when I would do the story about them, about their offensive line that that year, where they were really good in 2016.

and I was up there, talked to your dad for it, and I was just in their locker room at their practice facility. And I was like, this is the facility? It's an old bank. This is the locker room

where the NFL team gets ready to go practice. Yeah. It was, I was just blown away by it. After renovations too. I was just blown away by it. I was like,

man, this is really just a different sort of thing. I mean, obviously things have changed now, right? I mean, that's the wide and moved and everything else. Yeah. It's always interesting.

That's the Oakland Raiders. I grew up at Winter Park in Minnesota before they read. Same deal, by the way. Same sort of situation. You got the boat outside. That was there from 1968. Nothing had changed since then. And then we went to Jacksonville after and I was like, and they practiced at the stadium

there. And I was like, oh my God. Like what? The real quick story, this is a difference between a Red McComb's Minnesota Vikings team. And then when my dad went to Jacksonville and I went to the equipment room there, Jacksonville, I'll just say it like this. I was a head coach's kid. I got a hat a shirt and a pair of shorts.

I never got a sweatshirt. In Minnesota. That's what, yeah, my bed. In Minnesota. Not that I, like, ask for it.

That's just what was normal. That's just what we got. We're on a budget. Go to Jacksonville. First time I ever go there, the equipment guy there, he's like, hey, Nate.

And my dad's like, he wants some cleats and stuff. I was like, oh, I can get cleats? Holy crap. Cool. And the equipment guy there just hands me a gigantic, like,

10-gallon garbage bag and just goes, have at it. And he just let me walk through the equipment room, however much you can fill up, but it was just one of those things where it was like, oh, NFL teams are all run pretty different. That was my first exposure to that was what I found.

Well, now it's so funny when you go to Minnesota and they have that place. Colgious. Complex. It's absolutely ridiculous. Ridiculous. All right.

Guys, that's all we got. Just a heads up. If you want to hear more about the Rams, please go listen to 11 personnel with Jordan Rodriguez, who we talk about all the time on the show, just an amazing job covering the Rams. And Rich Hammond,

who is also with us at the athletic. If you're a Rams fan and you don't listen to 11 personnel, I highly recommend. You fold that into your routine. You will not regret it. Another thing to keep an eye out on Wednesday, Dane Bruegler and Lance Zerlind are starting their draft podcast on our feed. The first episode is going to break down just the lay of the land, the landscape of

this draft class, how it's kind of muddled at the top, but the middle tier and kind of the meat of the first round is actually pretty interesting. They're going to talk about this quarterback class. It's a little bit different than the last one that we talked about last season. So please go check that out. Dane and Lance are going to be with us on Wednesdays throughout the draft. We're also going to be coming to you guys several days a week in the off season. So it's not replacing anything that we're doing.

It's just an addition. And an addition that I am thrilled to have. There are a lot of NFL fans right now that are not watching their team in the playoffs. They're already on to draft talk. So we have brought those guys in to start that show now with you guys in mind. So please go check that out on Wednesday. I promise you. you will enjoy it.

We will be back with Mitchell. If you're listening to this on Monday, the show is probably already up. It's going to be up Monday morning. So please listen to the podcast with Mitchell Schwartz and the couple of mailbag questions that we did. For now, we really appreciate you guys listening. Please go rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice.

It's the end of the season. It would mean a lot to me if you like the show. It's a cool let us know. It's a small little gift from you guys to us. It would be very much appreciated. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com. show. So much great stuff every single day during the NFL playoffs. Indispensable coverage and

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