The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Ranking the NFL head coach openings and top candidates with Jeff Howe + the state of the Giants amid another reset with Dan Duggan

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

Which NFL head coach opening is the most attractive? Lindsay Jones and The Athletic’s Jeff Howe break down all of the vacancies, the top candidates for each role and much more. Plus, The Athletic’s Giants’ writer Dan Duggan joins the show to discuss the state of the franchise amid another head coach and GM change. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today is Thursday, January 13th. I'm Lindsay Jones. You're probably used to hearing me here on the Thursday Athletic Football Show with Robert Mays. Robert is out this week. He is on our sick list. So I am really excited to have Jeff Howe, my colleague at the Athletic, joining me today.

We're going to get into all of the news of the coaching searches, the GM searches. And then later in the show, we're going to be joined by Dan Duggan, our New York Giants beatwriter to get into everything that is going on with the New York Giants after they fired Joe Judge. So let's get right into it. Jeff, how you doing? Great. I hope you don't mind. I just got this new hoodie that I put on just for this show. So for those of you who are listening to the podcast, you can't see, but Jeff is wearing a danger zone sweatshirt. Excuse me. Oh, can they know they can't see me? See, that's my problem with technology. year is I called into this thing through like a seashell and I'm 38. I'm going on 138. It's like I can only do so much here. Well, we're going to cut a clip of this for social. They will be able to see you. And I can see you and I appreciate the effort of you creating

this Danger's own sweatshirt as an homage to Bill Belichick who broke that out. Although, did you cut the sleeves off that hoodie? Well, all right. So I have an endless supply. know, with a six-year-old and the four-year-old at home, as you know, Lindsay, I have an endless supply of art stuff. So, yeah, I can draw up a little something, something, but I was not going to cut the sleeves off of my favorite Lowell high hoodie here. So I got to keep that one in place. All right. So there's not quite a complete commitment to the bit, but we'll let it go for right now. So let's just get into all of the coaching updates, because usually here on our Thursday show, this was our kind of reset week. We look into all of the news that's going on. And we really want to

look at the news of these openings. We've spent a lot of time this week on this show talking about kind of how you hire coaches and GMs and what the searches are like. But now I really want to get into just kind of what is going on with these situations. So I want to start with the Miami Dolphins who it was really kind of the surprising firing of this week. You know, I think all of the other moves that we saw, you know, in Minnesota and Chicago and Denver. And even with the Giants on Tuesday afternoon moving on from Joe Judge, I think you kind of expected that those things were coming or could at least really understand why they were coming. The Brian Flores firing was the one when it came across Monday morning that kind of made everybody go, oh, wow, you know, because this is

a team that had been, you know, close to the playoffs last year. They went on a seven game winning streak to get themselves back into playoff contention this year. So one, I guess, what was your reaction when you when you saw that Brian Flores was fired. And then maybe what's your understanding in the days since of what really went wrong for Flores in Miami? Yeah, I was stunned. And look, two and a half months ago when they were one and seven, that, you know, this was on everybody's radar. It was, okay, what's going on with the dolphins? And it wasn't just they were one and seven. It was that they had a poor defense. And that was just a total blip from what was going on and all the success they had a season earlier when they almost made the playoffs. And then with that huge winning

streak, and they won eight of nine down the stretch. And they bookended the season with impressive victories against the Patriots. And the way that they played for Flores in that season finale, I mean, when you've got a team that's out of it, especially with how well they were rolling for during that seven game winning streak, and you're not always going to get a top effort. And you could tell that this game meant something to the dolphins. So that was really surprising. I know it's stunned people all over the building and not just that they they fired him but the amount of people who had to find out they fired Flores through Twitter was was it didn't go over well and then you know what what led to all of this it wasn't the seven game losing streak earlier in the season from what I've

been told this was because of the relationship I guess with Chris Greer and that's a concern because I felt strongly, having covered the Patriots for 12 and a half years, I felt strongly about Flores in his ability as a head coach. He's a terrific leader. He's a great defensive mind. I've never heard a player say a bad thing about him. And I was somewhat concerned about him going to Miami because of how much instability there has been there from the top of the organization on down. You know, the power struggle that all the political stuff that was going on behind the scenes five, six, seven years ago, whenever that was. And they clearly haven't gotten over it because if Chris Greer all of a sudden doesn't see eye to eye with a head coach who is doing a good job, leads them to back-to-back winning seasons for the first time since the Dave Wanstead era, now all of a sudden you're expendable?

I mean, what kind of a message are you sending to other people that you're trying to interview? you now. I mean, you had a good coach and you fired him because you didn't see eye to eye on certain things. And that's the mark of an organization that is not going to win anything of substance, certainly not with any consistency, until they get rid of the issues at the top. I mean, they've been to the playoffs twice in 20 years. They haven't won a playoff game since 2000. There is a reason for that. It's become almost cliche, maybe even top. to hear people say, all right, well, like winning starts at the top. You have to have a good owner to win consistently.

This is Exhibit A as to why you don't win because you've got people making strange decisions and getting rid of a quality head coach like Brian Flores, who all of a sudden is an immediate priority for all the other teams with vacancies. Well, it's been really interesting too because, you know, we're going to talk to Dan Duggan later in the show, you know, where, you know, the Giants have now fired. multiple head coaches. But, you know, John Mara is a very present owner, right? He is around. He is inside that building all of the time. You can't really say that about Stephen Ross, right? I mean,

he lives in New York. He's obviously pumping money in in terms of like facilities, the stadium upgrades. They built this ridiculous, ridiculously beautiful practice facility that's adjacent to the stadium kind of, you know, invested money there. But in terms of like a guy who's around on a daily basis, you know, kind of wondering about exactly what his role and all of this is. And, you know, the statement that he put out Monday of like, I've become aware of, you know, issues within our building. And it was like, you've just become aware of issues within your building and what's going on and, you know, maybe some infighting and some dysfunction and all of these sorts of things. It's just a really interesting situation that now he also is in a position to make

yet another head coaching higher. And, you know, if I'm a Dolphins fan, I'm wondering what or why I should have confidence that this ownership group, this general manager front office is going to get it right this time. You shouldn't because it hasn't been earned confidence. And you talk about like the relationships or was like the inconsistencies at the top and the, you know, the lack of communication. I mean, midway through the season, you've got Stephen Ross trying to have a conversation with Deshawn Watson

to see if he can, you know, have some resolution. if Watson can settle the legal issues that have followed him now for several months. And Watson wouldn't have that conversation because he wasn't going to take that. He wasn't going to go that row. Meanwhile, you've got Brian Flores at the podium every single day backing to a Tangovaloa, saying that he's my quarterback. I faith in him and standing by him while the owner's having these conversations trying to talk to Sean Watson.

So that's sending two very different messages. And it's just, you know, Tungo Viloa has, he came back from a tough rib injury. And in my opinion, I thought he started to play better down the stretch. I mean, I think he operates well within that offense. He's still got a lot of growing to do. But, you know, there's, and I saw that there were some reports that, you know, Tua and Flores didn't necessarily get along or whatever. I mean, I checked into that.

And from what I can tell, it was just a standard coach quarterback relationship. And there were no issues. No issues. So I don't know. I mean, there's just, it's a lack of consistency with, you know, the voices up top. And it all just comes back to the original point. When when you've got people on different pages at the top of the organization, it's not going to lead to sustain success on the fields. All right. So let's look forward to what might happen next and who the candidates are. So it sounds like, you know, there's a, there's a list of guys who have already been requested to interview. It's Brian Dable, Josh McClain. Daniels, Dan Quinn, Vance Joseph, Kellynne Moore is on this list. Are there any of those guys that jump out at you as you say, okay, that would be a good fit here. And I'm also curious, you know, you know Josh McDaniels, you wrote a story a couple weeks ago about kind of his chances of getting another job. Do you think it's possible that they might go back into the Patriots well once again? I would be, this is just my opinion. I don't have any inside knowledge on this. I'm going to look at it

from the other side. And I would be stunned if McDaniels even thought this is an attractive job, just because, like, nothing has changed over the last three years. You know, my concerns about flora's being sustainable in Miami were legit because they had back-to-back winning seasons and they fired him. So, I mean, yeah, you can have all these candidates. And I just, it's so hard when you are getting your second job, you know, in McDaniel's case and some of the other guys that you listed there, too. Like, if you fail for a. second time, that third job rarely comes. So if you are, I think the only way that you can really take this is if like this is your last chance or, you know, you've been out of the league or whatever,

or if you're a young coach who just wants one of those jobs to see what you can do. And, you know, there's a lot of guys in this profession have a lot of pride and think that they can succeed regardless of the circumstances around them. And then they grow up a little bit and they realize they might have been a little naive because, again, if you're not signing the checks, your power is limited to an extent. So look, I mean, I just, I can't sit here and say that any one of those coaches is better suited for this than anybody else because I just, I don't think that their system right now has any, there should be no confidence that their system works because it quite honestly hasn't. Yes, I think when, you know, when we're looking at this job, you have a lot of

question. So we've talked a lot about why this job would not be attractive. It's hard to find a list of like what makes this job really, really attractive if you are one of the top candidates. If you're, you know, Dan Quinn or Kellyn Moore, a guy who's going to have multiple interviews, I guess it's probably you've got some nice defensive pieces. You've got some good young defensive talent. Jalen Phillips had a great rookie year. Javon Holland was kind of a breakout star. You've got some, you know, obviously Zavian Howard. You've got some really nice. nice defensive pieces in place. When you look at that offense, though, that offensive roster needs a lot of work. I mean, the offensive line could potentially be, you know, needs to be

overhauled almost from top to bottom. You know, you've got big questions about your quarterback. Is Tua your guy? I don't think they're finishing this season with any more clarity at quarterback. I mean, we talked so much this summer and early the season about, you know, this was to his chance to kind of define himself as, you know, their quarterback of the future. And I don't think that happened even if Flores had stayed, but now that there's going to be a new coach in place, I think his future is even murkier. I mean, do you go after a veteran quarterback? Are you dipping your toes back in that Deshaun Watson pool again? I mean, these are all questions that the new head coach is going to answer.

So if you look at this, is there what to you could potentially make this job attractive or are just too many red flags all over the place? Yeah. I mean, look, if you want to want to look for some stuff, certainly. And actually, you bring up Kellan Moore. I mean, if, if a former left-handed quarterback coaches a current left-handed quarterback, are we riding like the Julian Edelman played, or, you know, the Chris Hogan played lacrosse or type of clichés, you know, Antonio Gates played college basketball or whatever. Anyway, all corny jokes aside, I think, again, Tua, in my opinion, operated well within the system. I'm not convinced one way or the other that he's a franchise quarterback. I still think it's too early to know. And it's not,

not too dissimilar to Baker Mayfields. I mean, he had an incomplete season because of the injuries. So some of that kind of held him back. And I think the answer remains incomplete. If you go to, let's say, Brian Daibald, who knew to in college, I mean, does that help? Possibly, certainly. And then the other things, I mean, Jalen Waddle is outstanding. And if it weren't for Jemar Chase being like a superhero, Jailen Waddle would have had a real, uh, good case for offensive rookie of the year. He was really, really good. And then you've got some other decent pieces. But like you said, the offensive line needs to be blown up. I mean, it's like every week the dolphins came on, they had a new running back on the roster. So it's like the revolving

door at that position. I think that if they probably got a decent chance to keep Gassiki, which gives you a maybe a top 10 tight end in the league. So that's an attractive piece. They have the cap space. And if you have, whether it's a defensive minded head coach or that coach, brings in a defensive coordinator who has a similar philosophy as Flores, you've got a ready-made defense there, too. So, you know, there are some things on the fields where you could say, if you get the right guy, you know, maybe you've got a team that could hover around 500, get some better breaks and maybe make a push for the playoffs, maybe. But again, that's for one year. Can you sustain success down there in Miami? You're going to have to prove that you are

the outlier. Yeah, that's the really hard part is that nobody has sustained success down there. Part of it was that that division was really, really difficult to win in for a very long time because of the Belichick Brady duo there that, you know, it was just nobody was competing for championships and the division we were all just hoping that you could be a wild card. And right now, Buffalo is kind of building themselves into a situation where they might be able to do that. And New England's, you know, trajectory is pointing way up. So it's not an easy division to win in by any means. So is there anything else you want to touch on with the dolphins before we move on?

I got nothing. All right. So let's move on to Jacksonville. Speaking of dysfunctional situations, it's almost like we've forgotten about the Jags having this opening because, one, it's been open for quite a while now ever since they fired Urban Meyer and all these new, there's all these new shiny openings. So let's just start from the top. What would make the Jacksonville Jaguars job attractive to this group of head coaching candidates? Trevor Lawrence. And that's the end of the list.

I was talking to somebody. It was a pretty good analogy. He said, Urban Meyer found a diamond and turned it into a rock. I mean, that's urban. I talked to another person, an executive who was like, yeah, if you, you know, if I pulled a bunch of people around the league in August and found out like just to see how long they think Urban Meyer was going to last, nobody would have said more than two years and I would have found a number of them who said he wasn't going to last the first year.

I mean, this was just a catastrophe from the beginning. You can say that this job's been open for a while. It wouldn't be hard to find people who would say that this job has been open since the day they signed Urban Meyer to a contract. This is the problem here, though. Shad Khan has owned the team since 2012. They have been to the playoffs once, and they had a good run. They were on the cusp of getting to the Super Bowl. They were a Miles Jack fumble recovery.

potentially away from getting the Super Bowl. Yeah. They played an absolute hell of a game up there in Foxborough. It was as hard as anybody has pushed the Patriots to the brink of elimination without winning as, you know, I guess as just just beneath the realm of like Atlanta and Seattle, I guess. I mean, it was just, it was a really good game. And then, Khan and Tom Coughlin blew it up.

So, you know, you want to talk about an owner and an, and an, executive group that needs to prove that they can win, that's another one. And it's Alki's relationship or reputation around the league is not a strong one. So that's that's another one that's going to be really difficult because you are right now going, if you're, whoever takes that job is taking that job because of the idea that Trevor Lawrence is still an all-time quarterback prospect. Then I think he probably is. I mean, as long as you get some good coaching around him, he should. should be just fine. But can you sustain that success? And what's the power struggle going to be like if Balke keeps control in the front office? Yeah, that has been the biggest question that I think

a lot of us have had over the last couple of weeks as you're looking at this job is that Trent Balke is staying in his job as general manager. And what is it that Shad Khan has seen out of Trent and what Balke has maybe told to him? Because it's really hard when you talk to people who have known him for a long time, who were around the 49ers, who have been around the Jags over the last couple of years to say, well, why is this is the guy that's staying? And I think it's going to make it really hard to get the best head coaches in there or the guys who have been around the league a lot. It seems to me like this is going to be a situation where I'm going to be a young guy who's going to be willing to kind of take a chance there because, you know,

Dan Quinn has already declined to interview there. We'll see if, you know, maybe he changes his mind on that later on. But it's a major red flag to me. And it's, I don't understand why Shad Khan has been so committed to keeping him. It's bizarre because it's, it's, it's hard to find people around the NFL who will say nice things about Trent Falky. It's just that, that's just the way it is. Even off the record. Right. I mean, oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like, no, you don't even want to know what you're saying off the record. Right. Exactly. It's, it's a tough spot. And what they, They need one of two types of coaches. You need a tremendous leader or you need a quarterback whisperer because you need it fast.

Because you are, I mean, just like spin this forward a little bit with Trevor Lawrence. I mean, yeah, you got the four-year rookie deal, the base contract. You're going to get the fifth year option. And then, you know, theoretically, you've got two franchise tags. But what are you going to do to, like, this isn't a seven-year commitment that you want. out of Trevor Lawrence. And you don't want years six and seven to be under the franchise tank. You want this to be the face of the franchise for like 20 years as a player and then another 30 post-retirement. Like this, you want this guy to be Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or whoever.

Like you need this guy to really sell the idea that the Jaguars can be a winner and to be a face for a long time. And you don't want this to get contentious. You don't want to, hire the wrong coach again. You don't want him to all of a sudden lose faith in the organization and to start counting the days until he hits free agency or to have to hold out or whatever. I mean, this is, it was a disastrous year one. And you got to make the right hire right now. Yeah. And they better hope that they didn't do too much damage in year one. I mean, I still have a ton of confidence in Trevor Lawrence and his mental makeup that he isn't going to carry these giant scars from whatever happened in year one.

But it's just, it's unfortunate that it's basically going to be restarting his clock. Yeah. And that's tough. And that's why, you know, to,

to, you know, shot con's credit, you had to get rid of Urban Meyer this year. And it's, it's never a good look to have a one and done coach.

I think he was, I don't know, if lucky or fortunate or whatever is the word that Urban Meyer basically left him no choice. Because then all of a sudden, you know he's going in a year two with like, almost no chance of winning. And then year three is another system for Trevor Lawrence. So

yeah, I mean, that's just the timeline has been accelerated. You need to have the right coach in here now. And he needs to be here for several years to make sure that Trevor Lawrence has the right coaching to lead them into a new generation. All right. So the list of candidates at this point, guys who have been either have already interviewed or have been requested to interview. Doug Peterson, former Eagles head coach, obviously the quarterback whisperer type of background won a Super Bowl. I think he

has kind of the offensive pedigree there. Todd Bulls with Tampa, defensive coordinator there, Jim Caldwell, another offensive-minded head coach, very much the quiet, stable,

kind of solid leader kind of guy. Byron Lefwich, offensive coordinator in Tampa, Kellen Moore, offensive coordinator in Dallas. Bill O'Brien is an interesting name here on this list. Former Texans head coach most recently has been the Alabama offensive coordinator supposedly interviewing right now, right? I mean, in the next day or two. And then Nathaniel Hackett, Packers, offensive coordinator, who was a former Jags assistant was with the Jags when they made that run to the AFC championship game a couple years ago. And Colts defensive coordinator, Matt Eberfluse,

excuse me. I want to talk more about Bill O'Brien. What do you think of Bill O'Brien interviewing here in Jacksonville? And what do you think of just about him being an NFL candidate again at this point? It's very interesting because he was as just a head coach, he wasn't as bad as I think the taste in everybody's wealth has been left because of the way it ended in Houston. He made the playoffs with a lot of quarterbacks who were not. Deshaun Watson. Right, right. He got too much personnel power and there was too much, it was just too contentious in an organization and they needed more stability and the way, it just, it was too much too soon and then it was on the heels of that fake punt in the playoffs. And then, I mean, things just went haywire so, so, so fast. So it's an interesting one. The thing I question, and if I'm interviewing Bill O'Brien, the thing I would question is,

Sorry, you know, what's like the emotion level here? Because, again, I think you need just a rock. And Bill O'Brien's a fiery guy. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. It was at the end in Houston, but you just, we need that, you need that stability for Trevor Lawrence. And I just think that's an important thing. I mean, somebody like Caldwell, I think would be outstanding for him,

assuming he gets a more of a in up-to-date offensive mind, somebody with a little more of a progressive offensive philosophy. You know, it's been a few years since he's called plays. And so I think you just need a younger offensive coordinator. But I think Caldwell would be an outstanding choice just because he would stabilize the organization and such a good leader. All right. Let's get into a couple of these other jobs, the places that are open right now.

The Broncos have an extensive list of candidates. There has been a ton of movement going on with the Broncos. And we shouldn't be surprised. George Payton on Sunday afternoon, after they fired Vic Fangio, came out and he used the word comprehensive. It was one of the buzzwords. The other one was leadership. So if you were drinking during the George Peyton press conference,

and that was your drinking game word, it was going to be a really, really rough day for you. I think I ran out of times. Yeah, still hungover, exactly. So it's a very long list. They said it would be comprehensive. We had initially heard like seven to nine candidates. I think they have already gone over on that.

So right now it's Dan Quinn, Gerard Mayo, Eric B. Enamey, Jonathan Gannon, Kevin O'Connell, Brian Callahan, Aaron Glenn, Nathaniel Hackett, Luke Getsey, and Kellyn Moore. So what I take away from that list, the first names that came out, the first ones, the guys who were requested first, it was Dan Quinn and Mayo. And you thought, okay, you just fired Vigfangio and the first guys you're asking permission to talk to are defensive head coaches. But then you start looking down the list. And this is a really interesting list of guys. You've got a potential retread coach in Dan Quinn. You've got really young up-and-coming guys like Mayo and Hackett and Kellyn Moore. You've got, you know, Brian Callahan has been with the Broncos before he was an assistant coach back when they, you know,

the Peyton Manning era. You know, Jonathan Cannon is kind of an up-and-coming defensive coach. So when you look at the way that the Broncos are approaching this, what's your takeaway from this candidate list and maybe what direction do you think they're going to go? I mean, they're trying to interview every single type of coach. And it's interesting. And I think out of all the jobs that are open, that's, in my opinion, probably the most attractive one because you've got a lot of offensive talent, a defense that clearly played

really well was the strength of the team. it's just what do they need? What were they lacking last year? I think maybe a little more motivation from the head coach. And then you just need a quarterback. Exactly. And a quarterback. You needed somebody who can, like, their receivers are really, really good.

And they just didn't utilize. Their tight ends are really good. The running backs are outstanding. So, I mean, they might only be a high level quarterback away. Not that that's an easy thing to go out and acquire or anything like that. but I think it's it's an attractive job and, you know, Gerard Mayo would be a really interesting choice because he is, he can fire you up. He's a, he's a great leader. He, you know, Bill Belichick has said this, and this is not an empty statement from Belichick. He's referred to Mayo as one of the

smartest players he's ever coached. And I would imagine that list is basically Mike Vrable, Gerard Mayo, Devin McCordy, maybe, and then Dante High Tower. Like those four in some type of border, I think are the smartest guys that have ever played on Belichick's defense. And he's just, he took some time after his playing career. He got into the business field and they came right back. And he picked up where he left off. I mean, he rejoined High Tower and Jamie Collins and guys that he had played with, McCordy, of course. but like just coaching the linebackers and then quickly rising.

I mean, a lot of people have made this reference before, but like he's got a very similar trajectory as Mike Rable. And I've asked people around the league about Mayo because again, maybe, hey, who knows, maybe I'm too close to the situation. I want to see what some other people think about Mayo. And universally, everybody thinks that he is going to be a really good head coach. It's just at this point, he has been an assistant for three years. So the experience isn't necessarily.

there, it's going to take at some point, somebody to just make a non-traditional, I guess, type of hire because of that lack of experience. But I know the Eagles really liked him last year. He was basically a finalist for that job before they went with Sireani. But somebody who, whoever hires Mayo, whenever it happens to be, is going to get a good one. They just have to sort of make that, it's just like I said, it's going to be like a non-traditional hire because of the lack of experience. So for Mayo in Denver, like for him to be a really strong candidate here. I think part of it is that you're going to have whoever gets that job if you're a defensive-minded guy. They have to come in with a strong offensive plan. Who is going to be your

coordinator? What is your quarterback plan? What is your offense going to look like? All of those sorts of things. And we don't know. I guess we just don't know at this point, but do you have any potential sense of like who he might like? I mean, is there somebody in New England that he might try to bring or what his potential staff could look like? I don't know. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's, You're right. And that's absolutely the number one question, especially if he goes to Denver, because, you know, they need to solve their offensive issues. They're basically going to be the same team next year if they don't. So he does need a plan. I don't know of anybody in New England who is, like, I was thinking about it another way. Like if Josh McDaniels leaves, I don't know who's going to be their offensive coordinator, unless they bring like Bill O'Brien up or something like that.

So it's, they've had so much turnover because of, Belichick assistants who have taken coaching jobs and since gotten fired, that a lot of that staff is very inexperienced. So I don't know if there's anybody from New England. I mean, maybe Schoensky if he's gone from the Giants with Joe Judge, maybe Chad O'Shea, if they can get him out of Cleveland, or maybe you just got to start looking into the college ranks. I mean, somebody like Liam Cohen down in Kentucky is eventually, I would think, going to get some. some offers as an offensive coordinator in the NFL if he doesn't take a head coaching job at a power five school at some point in the next two or three years anyway. So like I think you got

to start looking at that crop of potential offensive coordinators because right. I mean, Mayo's a defensive guy and he's a great leader, but he's going to need a great offensive coordinator to go with him. Yeah. So we you ran through the list pretty good of why this job is attractive. I think you have to add George Payton to that list. I think he's really really well respected also has a pretty long contract there. I think they gave them seven years. So, you know, this is kind of a long-term situation. I would say the one downside to this job is that we do not know who is going to be owning this team in three months, six months. And that is, that's a big question. I mean, the fact that George Payton is that well-respected does have that long of a contract

helps temper that a little bit. But it is really interesting that, you know, the news this week is that the legal barrier preventing a sale has now been removed. So the Broncos, the trust, the Pat Bowman Trust, they can move forward expeditiously towards selling this team. The competing groups are coming together. We expect that John Elway will be part of one. We expect that Peyton Manning will be part of one. Neither of whom would be the controlling owner in any of these situations, but it is going to be very interesting in this situation. But that's kind of the one concern right there is that you just don't know who's going to be evaluating you and ultimately how this organization is going to be run in the very near future.

That's a perfectly fair question mark to have for any candidate. And it brings, you know, maybe not a perfect example, but, you know, everybody kind of pokes fun at or depending on what side of the argument you're at, how Belichick resigned is HC of the NYJ. I mean, a big reason for that was because they were going through an ownership transition. And he saw what happens in Cleveland with their ownership issues. Like, if you have an unknown commodity as an owner, then you never really know what your job security is going to be. So I think it's just a total guess when you've got Peyton Manning, when you've got John Elway as part of those two potential ownership groups, you know, that tells me that maybe you're off to a good start. but that's purely just a guess.

Yeah. I mean, there's so much speculation going on right now about kind of who could get into that mix. And obviously, it's a very small group of guys who, I mean, this is a team that's probably going to sell for what, more than $4 billion, who has that type of money. There are some, you know, billionaires with Colorado, deep Colorado routes who could get involved. But it's just as one thing that none of the other jobs have. Some of these other jobs have questionable owners.

We know that the ownership situation. We've just talked about a couple of them. Here it's just we just don't literally do not know who is ultimately going to be the person signing the check. So do you have anything else on the Broncos? I want to rip through the rest of these jobs pretty quick. You ready? No. All right.

Yeah, unless I'm going to cobble together $4 billion to go buy a team. Yeah, you and me both. Let's go check under our couch cushions and see what we can find. All right. Let's get to the Bears really quick. So bears have a GM opening and a head coach opening. Let's focus mostly on the coaching side. Right now, candidates.

that are supposedly going to be interviewing, Leslie Frazier, Doug Peterson, Brian Daebel, Todd Bowles, Byron Lefwich, Dan Quint and Matt Eberflus. It's a lot of the same names that we've been talking about for all of these other openings. To you, what makes this bear's job attractive if you're one of these guys who's got a full dance card? Justin Fields.

And I think we saw enough out of him as a rookie to know that he is going to be the real deal. And that's, you have a ready-made, almost certain franchise quarterback. So that's got to be an exciting thing for any potential candidate. The organization's history speaks for itself. I think I would have question marks about ownership there, to a degree. Not as bad as I would in Miami or maybe other places,

but they didn't win over many people on Monday, that's for sure. No. But hey, you know what? You're going in with a GM, you would think, assuming they hire the GM first, who picks you to be the head coach. So your philosophies will be aligned, you would think, and that probably buys you three years at minimum, which is something that you definitely need. So the potential for stability and a franchise quarterback right there for you are two very appealing options. This is one of those jobs where I'm very interested to see if they go with the offensive coordinator, the offensive-minded head coach again with somebody who comes in with a really strong plan for.

Justin Fields specifically. I mean, I think that was one of the biggest problems with Matt Nagy was that they drafted Justin Fields and it never felt like they had a real plan for him, which Matt Nagy was supposedly a offensive genius quarterback whisper kind of guy. That was why they hired him a couple years ago to replace John Fox, where if you take the, you know, you hire the guy who's opposite than what you had, that was Matt Nagy to John Fox. So I'm curious if they go the offensive-minded guy. Lizzie Frazier has kind of an interesting.

name on this list because he would be the opposite of Nagy, right? I mean, he's an experienced coach, a really respected defensive mind. You know, one of those guys who just kind of wondered why hasn't he gotten another shot yet. He's kind of put together a really impressive resume in Buffalo as their defensive coordinator. Is there any of those guys that jumps out at you before we move on to Minnesota? I mean, I've heard really good things about Frazier as a leader. And yeah, I mean, I think he's a guy that.

A lot of people around the league expect to get another chance. So that would be interesting. I mean, it's, it's baffling how, how fast it fell apart under Nagy. I mean, he, he was the coach of the year two years ago. Pro Bowl, like that, yeah. Although, you know what? Have you looked at like the coach of the year? Yeah, that's not great.

The last decade, nine of the last 10 are either not with their original team or not in the playoffs right now. So, better. You might not want. that award. Well, Robert and I talked about this last week when we did our award show where it's just this award that it always goes to like the the guy whose team exceeded expectations or kind of burst onto the scene. And instead of the guys who are good year in and year out where like Bill Belichick probably should win coach the year nearly every year, we just pull him out of the mix

because the bar then is so high. Like he has to, I don't even know what Bill Belichick has to do to literally win coach the year because he basically never wins it. I made the case for Matla floor to be coach of the year, but it's like, can you separate him from Aaron Rogers? So, you know, it was Kevin Stefansky a year ago, and just this year, they missed out on the playoffs. So I'm very curious. It seems like, you know, there's a lot of movement toward Brable to win that award this year. But yeah, I mean, it's, it is really telling that we all seem to get that award. Like, we get all distracted by the, the shiny new object and the, the guy who changes the culture really quick. And then it ultimately isn't sustainable when really

we should probably be looking over a multi-year, multi-year results instead of just, you know, exactly what happened in that one season. Yeah, I think Belichick's won three times. I'm pretty sure it was in 03 when he went 14 and 2, 07 when he went 16 or no, and definitely in 2010 when they went 14 and 2. So, yeah, he's got to.

So really all you have to do is go undefeated. No problem. I think if the bills are, I mean, I think if the Patriots would have won that division, if they would have, like, beaten the bills the second time and they won the AFC East. I think there would have been a really strong, a really strong case for Bill Belichick. Yeah. You're right.

I agree with you there. If they win that game, they win the East. He's the coach. Well, actually, well, if they won that, whatever. Let's not get into playoff. What would have happened with Miami and all that other stuff. But yeah, they win the division. I would have been stunned if it wasn't him.

Mack Jones probably wins offensive rookie of the year. But, you know, they lost that game. They lost it convincingly. And now they have to go back. All right. let's get in. There's two more openings. The Vikings job. The Vikings have been the quietest, despite having a head coach and a general manager opening. What sort of coach do you think they should be targeting? And why is this job attractive? It's hard to, so why is it attractive? I mean,

since Wilf bought the team in 05, they've had three coaches. So this is a guy who is not going to make rash decisions. You're going to get several years to come in. And, and prove that you can implement a system and then follow through with it. So I think that is, there's something to be said for that in the NFL where, like, now it's like if you make it past year two, all of us like, you're the next big thing because owners are just so quick to fire people. But I'm curious, like, what is the plan? Like, what do they want out of the quarterback position?

Because, look, Kirk Cousins is going to put up some nice stats year in and year out. and he's going to have some highlight games, and, you know, he's going to throw it down the field to Justin Jefferson, but, like, frankly, we know Kirk Cousins isn't going to win you a Super Bowl. So he's got, I believe, one more year left on his contract, and, you know, that's fine. I mean, happy for Cousins for one year,

especially your first year as a head coach, really isn't that bad of a thing. It helps. It's a bridge. And maybe you try something a little earlier in the draft than they did last year. and I mean having Jefferson and Cook and Thielen, you know, there are some pieces there. But I just, I don't know, the Vikings were just such a weird team this year.

And I don't know why, like, if we divvy up the pie, like, why were they losing these close games? Is it the coaching? Is it the players? Is it like, what was it truly? I mean, I don't, can anybody truly say like they have all the answers there? So, I don't know. I mean, is this team close? Are they far away?

It's just, it's a mystery to me. Yeah. So you said you think the. Bronco's job is the most attractive. Our Vikings beatwriter Chad Graff wrote a story this week on the athletic, making the argument for why the Vikings job is the most attractive. I mean, I think there's a lot to like there. I mean, I don't know if Kirk Cousins is an asset.

Chad made the argument that he is an asset just for, you know, you know, you're coming in with a quarterback that you can win in the regular season with, maybe not win in the Super Bowl, but you can at least, you know, you're not coming into a completely blank slate at quarterback, especially a year where there's not going to be a ton of good options. the draft. The resources are good there. The stadium is great. The facility. I mean, they probably have the best practice facility in the NFL. You have, you know, stable ownership, those sorts of things. So I think it is attractive. Let's look at the Raiders real quick. The Raiders are the one team on this list that are still playing. So they, but they've also had the opening for the longest.

So conceivably, they could have been talking to candidates for about the last three weeks. what direction do the Raiders need to go next? And do you think Rick Biscoscia, excuse me, has a real shot if the Raiders are able to kind of make a run here? I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they beat the Bengals. I mean, I'm not picking them to do so, but they've won four in a row. And I thought they were done when they barely beat Cleveland. Like I thought that was it for them. Cleveland was down like, what, 18 to 20 players because of the COVID list?

and all the injuries that they've dealt with. And the Raiders needed a last gasp drive just to win that game. I mean, thinking back to that, if they lost that game, they're not in the playoffs. And then, you know, beating the Colts in the second to last week of the season. And then that Sunday night game was like the most entertaining football game ever. I think he deserves a real, a solid look to keep that job. And I'm interested to see what direction they go in because they really haven't tipped their hand. And if you're Mark Davis with the controversy that they had to deal with over the season,

I mean, Davis would be within his right to want to blow this whole thing up. Like start over, front office, coaching staff, whatever. Because what they have done, aside from winning the last four games, you know, some of the stuff off the field. And with Gruden and the draft picks, who they had to release due to some, I guess I'll just say controversial circumstances. I mean, we all know what they were. Something's not working. So is it just a coach?

Are they going to look at replacing Mayock? I mean, we don't know because they're not putting feelers out there, at least not being transparent about their feelers. I'm sure they're having back channel conversations to see what coach is. might be interested because that's what everybody does. But yeah, I'm really, really, really interested to see what direction Davis wants to go with this thing. Yeah, the Mayock thing is going to be really interesting to watch over the next couple of weeks if he ends up staying.

And then the third domino there is Derek Carr. And, you know, he's a guy that does not have a secure long-term future with the Raiders. As somebody who lives in Denver and has watched a team's struggle to replace a quarterback, I think they would be nuts to move on from Derek Carr, even though you might look around and think there's guys that have a higher ceiling potentially than Derek Carr. I think it would be a, unless you're getting Aaron Rogers or somebody to replace him, I think you would be nuts to move on from him, especially in this division.

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, because Derek Carr has had stretches in multiple seasons when he has put himself into the MVP conversation, including this season. Yeah, exactly. And then sort of fizzled out or whatever and, you know, got injured a few years back and kind of took himself out of that. But Derek Carr is a starting quarterback. And he is at, like, again, at his best in the conversation or at least maybe in the top seven to eight quarterbacks in the league at his best, not consistently over the course of an entire season. But anyway, yeah, I mean, last year when, you know, Russell Wilson gave the Raiders as a potential. destination if they were going to ultimately trade him and Russell Wilson as the no trade clause. I mean, yeah, if you can go with Aaron Rogers or Russell Wilson, yeah, of course, that's an

upgrade and I think you make that move. Otherwise, you just draft somebody. I mean, this is an interesting draft where you might have five or six quarterbacks gone in the first two rounds. If the right guy's on the board, then take them. And if car backslides, then see if you can develop that young guy. I think that's probably the logical way to approach the quarterback position if you're the ratings. Because I'm with you. I think that they should continue to invest in car.

Yeah, I mean, I think he's a selling point for why that job is attractive. I think some of the other things, obviously the stadium practice facility. You've got good things there. You also have some nice, you've got some quality pieces, Darren Waller, Max Crosby, like guys that you want to build around now. It took them a little while, but they seemed to have figured out a little bit better what their offensive line situation was going to be. took some moving some guys from tackle to guard, these sorts of things. But there's some good pieces there.

I still think they have got a lot of work to do on defense at every level of their defense to kind of compete week and week out against the AFC West, which is, I think the big reason that they wanted to win that game was that they didn't have to go play the Chiefs in the wild card round, because I think we all know how that was, unless Gus Bradley had a lobotomy and was going to completely change his defensive philosophy. I think we know how like a Raiders chiefs game is going to play out. But that's it. Do you have any more thoughts on the Raiders before we wrap up?

That's all I got on Vegas. All right. So the other thing that we do on our weekly Thursday show, and I'm totally springing this on you, is we do our appointment viewing for the week. Which wild card game are you most excited for this week? Oh, Dallas, San Francisco. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I cannot wait for that one.

I mean, like covering the Patriots for 12 years, of course, like there's a lot of intrigued with this Patriots Bill's game. I think it's going to be, I mean, Buffalo is just ready to just blow the top off of that city. If they beat the Patriots in a playoff game, that would be an unbelievable moment for that community. Patriots fans, I know from seeing on Twitter all week, I mean, they want to beat Buffalo real, real, real, real bad. There was a lot of pride in winning that unconventional game in the wind in Orchard Park a few weeks ago. But like the Patriots and Bill's fans, They got a fun little back and forth going on for years, really, on Twitter. It's funny to watch.

And I know this game means a lot to both of them. But look, let's be real. This 49ers Cowboys game could be awesome. Yeah. I mean, I just think from like matchups watching what the Niners running game might be like, you know, the Cowboys defense has become one of the most fun units to watch all year. I mean, Micah Parsons is appointment viewing television all of his own. So I'm with you.

That also is the Nickelodeon game. So I will probably watch the Nickelodeon broadcast of that game, probably with my child because she doesn't watch SpongeBob, but she is into the slime. She was really into that game last year. So that'll be another and see who is the who follows Mitch Tribisky as the MVP. Yeah. Remember that's the thing that happened last year? What was it GAC?

Can you buy GAC like 20 years ago? 30 years ago. of the slime stuff. We're aging ourselves right here. We're in the... It's really unfortunate. We're in the... You can't say that.

You can't do that on television. You can't say that on television generation of Niccolo. Got up an agro crag. All right. So, well, Jeff, thank you so much for joining me. Make sure you follow Jeff on Twitter, read his stuff at The Athletic. He's got a ton of breaking news. He's all over all of this coaching search stuff.

And we will be back with Dan Duggan to talk about the New York Giants. And now it is time for our team visit. I am excited to be joined now by Dan Duggan, our New York Giants beatwriter. Dan's making a repeat appearance on our team visit. But it's timely this week because the Giants, about 24 hours before we're recording this, fired Joe Judge. So hi, Dan. How you doing?

Yeah, it's been a while since I've been on. It's never really coming in to talk about games or playoffs or anything fun like that, though. It's usually these types of topics we're covering. All right. So let's just get right into the news. What happened over the last few days, you know, really from the time that the Giants lost their last game on Sunday afternoon when they called a quarterback sneak on third and nine from deep in their own territory to Tuesday afternoon when they fired Joe Judge? Yeah, so I'll go back even just before the start of Sunday's game where Dave Gellman got as much deserved send off before the game. Obviously, hopefully the sarcasm is dripping my voice there.

But, yeah, he had family and friends taking photos. And so everyone has known for months that this, you know, was going to be his last season. But, you know, loyal to the end, they took care of one of their guys and let him go out with the dignity of a retirement announcement on Mondays if there was any suspense. So that was that. Again, Gettleman's fate has been known for a long time. So it really wasn't any suspense there.

There's plenty of suspense with Joe Judge. I mean, if you would ask me, I would say six weeks ago, will he be back? No question. maybe 5%. But the thing I always said when people asked me, because they obviously were losing a lot of games, was as long as it doesn't become a disaster, Joe Judge is going to be back.

Well, it became a disaster. And so that's really how things really spiraled fast. I mean, you had John Marra gave him a vote of confidence in week seven. It Adam Schaefter reporting. He doesn't get me wrong. In like week 16, the judge would be back. And then just with the infamous press conference rant after that 29 to three loss of the Bears,

there's the complete ineptitude on the field. Like obviously you understand Daniel Jones gets hurt. Mike Lennon, Jay Fromm, not great quarterbacks. You can't be running quarterback sneaks because you're just so incapable of, you know, doing anything without becoming a complete disaster. So he really, you know, he kind of dug his grave fast. But still, going into Monday, you didn't really know which way the wind was going to blow because, you know, he went through his exit meeting with his staff and his players

and it was kind of business as usual. I mean, it was a little ominous that ownership didn't come right and say, yes, he'll be back. But, you know, they had to meet with him. So they met with him Monday afternoon. Met with him Tuesday afternoon. And apparently, Georgia just could not sell them on, you know, how he's going to get this thing fixed. And, you know, it just became a situation where it was really untenable to, you know, bring a guy back who was a 10 and 23 record, has to, you know, overhaul his entire offensive staff at minimum.

But I think other, you know, other assistants on the other side of the ball, they were kind of kind of look, you know, I think assistants kind of can, you know, read the writing on the wall. He might have to revamp, like, you know, 90% of his staff, again, coming off a 10 and 23 record. Plus, you got new GMs who probably aren't jazzed about having to inherit Joe Judge. So I think really what happened is if he could have somehow sold them some grand plan to fix things, you know, maybe they would have tried to make it work. I don't think that was possible. And then, you know, it just makes a lot more sense to do a clean break. I mean, Joe Judge kind of got a raw deal is whatever self-inflicted wounds he had. He only got two years with a bad GM, but kind of ends the breaks.

He's still going to get paid for the next three years. So that you're cushion the blow. But yeah, it really it really devolved fast for him. And once he kind of started sinking, he just, he couldn't, you know, pull himself out of it. So do you think it was more of a problem of the actual results on the field, the way the games went over these last six weeks where I believe what they lost, they lost all of those games, but they were losing those games by double digits? Right. Or was it more of, or wasn't more of kind of the other stuff? the conversation outside of the building, the way that Judge Judge handled himself in those

press conferences. How do you kind of balance those two factors? Yeah, I mean, of course it was a combination of the two. You know, I mean, but at the end of the day, if they went four and 13 quietly, I think they can probably twist themselves into, you know, justify and bringing him back. I think four and 13 with the press conference, which was a bad look, with the quarterback sneaks. I mean, I just still can't wrap my mind around that one. Those are just, you made themselves a punchline. You know, Aaron, Rogers is taking shots at him on, you know, Pat McAfee, and every talking head is blasting him for the press conference.

And this ownership group is very sensitive to public perception. So again, you know, they lost Daniel Jones. I mean, not that he was a great quarterback, but they would not have been as pitiful if he was still the start for those last six games. Once they lost him, you knew it was going to be tough sledding, didn't expect it to be as tough as it was. But I think ownership could have used as an excuse, like, oh, all these injuries, we lost our quarterback, but you add the other stuff on top of it.

And I think it was just, you know, it was too much to overcome for him. So you talk about ownership being kind of sensitive to what people are saying. I mean, one of the things that kind of the schools of thought out there was that one of the reasons to keep Joe judge was that they were sensitive to the idea of firing another coach and not wanting to be one of these teams that has to kind of keep churning through head coaches. What do you think ultimately, what is ownership's kind of responsibility in all of this, given that this is now, you know, you know, basically three failed head coaches, two years each, back to back to back. So what is ownership in John Mara and that whole crew? What's their role in all of this?

Yeah, I mean, a huge role. I mean, because obviously you had things were looking really great, you know, a decade ago. You're winning a Super Bowl 10 years ago. They're celebrating that team in the midst of getting blown up by the Rams this year. Even when they had celebrations, they couldn't go well for them this year. But, you know, you had stability. You had Tom Clothlin.

You had Jerry Reese. You know, those guys were in their positions for a long time. Obviously, it started to go south. So basically from the moment they fired Tom Coughlin after the 2015 season, I mean, listen, I think it was time, but they haven't gotten anything right since then. So it's a little revision's history to say like, oh, firing Tom Coughlin started this because I think that was the right move, but they just have not done anything right since then. They held on to Jerry Rees family. They probably should just had a clean reset. And then obviously hiring Gettleman, he was worse than Reese on his, on Reese's worst day by a million.

I mean, he was just a disaster in every way, you know, you can imagine. And then, yeah, like you said, the head coach is boom, boom, boom. We're on our fourth head coach in six years, which is crazy. And, I mean, it was kind of odd that even that entered the equation, though, that they don't want to be looked at as turning over head coaches every year. Like, that shouldn't factor in your decision making whatsoever. But I do understand it, it is a bad look. But, I mean, the product you're putting on the field is a worst look. So they need to try and get it right.

But I do think it'd be kind of folly to sit here and say, oh, they just need to fix the GM and the head coach. Like, there's bigger problems. Their ownership, again, is they're the constant. And they are not doing a very good job. obviously of filling these roles. I mean, it's a new day. Maybe they get it right this time. But even as John Mara said on Wednesday, he hasn't given anybody a reason to believe that he will get it right. Because again, they're over four head coach GM hires since they dismissed Coughlin-Aree. That's not a very good batting average. All right. So let's get into this

John Mara press conference that happened Wednesday afternoon. A little bit of it aired on NFL network, but not all of it. I know you were there for all of it. Got to ask some questions. So what were your big takeaways from what John Mara had to say? I'll specify. I got to ask a question. There was no follow-ups allowed. Very, very strict policy. Welcome to media in 2021, unfortunately. Don't know, listen, John Meherr does this as well as anybody. It's, unfortunately, there's so much practice doing it. He gets up there at the end of a bad season and he just, like, lets it all hang out. You can tell the anguish is on his face and his voice. I mean, he's not some absentee owner who's just cash in the check. It does kill him to lose. At the same time, I've now heard this same spiel, but on the beat for six years, I've heard it five times. So it just kind of, it starts to fall on deaf ears a little bit. I mean, it's great that he takes the ownership of it. And again, he's not so tone deaf that he, you know, again, he does feel it. It's been his lifeblood, his entire life.

I mean, this is the family business. There's no, oh, I made my billions doing something else and the giants are my hobby. This is the family business. So it kills him. But it's just when he gets up there and says it, like I said, I kind of heard that message before. So, you know, you made allusion to the NFL network only airing part of it. They conveniently cut out when the heat. got turned up a little bit because myself and a few others asked questions about sort of the front

office that hasn't changed, which is John's brother, Chris Mara, has been vice president, a player personnel for, you know, a decade. His nephew, Tim McDonald, has been co-director of player personnel the last couple of years. So you're turning over GMs, you're turning over scouts, you're turning over coaches, you're turning over rosters every year or two. But there's still some people that obviously are high up on the masthead who aren't going going anywhere. And John Marrett, he got pretty defensive, does not like that line of questioning, which I understand. I mean, of course, you don't want to sit here. You're already bad enough that you're losing. Now you have to defend your family's role in this mess. But I mean, it's a totally

valid topic to explore because, again, they're firing everybody else. Everyone else is gone. So how can you sit there and say, well, but these two guys who are prominently placed in our personnel department, they've been doing a great job. Everyone else has been bad, just luck in the draw that these two guys can't seem to get any of their decisions approved or, you know, whatever it may be. So that, that part stuck out to me because that's sort of a third rail topic over there. They don't like to have it discussed. They don't even like to have to address it.

But it's just, it has to come to lay at this point because you keep firing GMs, you keep firing coaches, and that's not changing your results. You have to start digging a little bit deeper. So obviously there's been an acknowledgement that they haven't gotten it right. You know, it was kind of a casual one, I guess, with Gettleman by letting him retire rather than kind of actually having to fire him. But, you know, I was on a, you know, I guess it was a Zoom conference a couple years ago. I guess now it was a summer of 2020 where John, it was about coaching and building your staff. And John Merrill was one of the panelists there talking about,

you know, hiring and ownership's role in hiring and what owners look for. And, you know, a lot of this was geared toward minority candidates and trying to increase diversity in the coaching ranks. It was interesting at the time because he had just come off of a coaching search where, you know, kind of had the real wild card of that cycle was their decision to hire Joe Judge. I'm very curious the why Giants fans or why any of us really should have any confidence that they're going to get it right this time. Like, what are they going to do different? Have you heard or seen anything that gives you any sort of belief that maybe they'll

conduct this search differently than they have in recent years? Yeah, I mean, I think just the way they have conducted to this point is maybe the source for encouragement because, you know, in 2017, when Reese was out, they interviewed four candidates. And it was, you know, Mark Ross, who was an internal candidate. Kevin Abrams was an internal candidate. Dave Gettleman had kind of left the nest for a couple years ago to Carolina, but he was, you know, very much a giant's, you know, born and bred type guy. And then Louis Riddick, who's a TV guy.

So they didn't, they're not exactly a wide net there. You're not, even if you're going to hire Dave Getteman, doesn't hurt to talk. He wasn't going to high by somebody else. You didn't have to worry about that. So it doesn't hurt to talk to six or eight other candidates. It's from winning organizations. You know, Ernie O'Corsi, who has a great reputation, the organization deservedly so. He was the consultant on that search.

I mean, didn't take him that long, I guess, to find the guy who was, you know, on his staff for, you know, a number of years. Right. So when you look at this search, Ernie of course he's not involved. God bless him, but, you know, he's been out of the league for a long time. It's, you know, they can, he doesn't need to have a voice in the process. And then also there's no internal candidates being interviewed. I mean, not that there's a ton of strong ones, but Kevin Abrams is the guy who's been here. was clearly being groomed to be the Gettlement successor.

I mean, Dave's 70 years old. Even if things went great, he wasn't going to keep this job forever. So you could clearly see, hey, if things went well this year, maybe they move on to Kevin Abrams. It was untenable. You couldn't do that. The situation has gotten so toxic. But they're not even giving him an interview.

So I don't know what that means for his long-term future. But in the immediate future, he's not going to obviously be the next GM. So they've got nine candidates from all across the league, but really a young group. I think the oldest, can't even, is mid-40s. and then it goes low as the mid-30. So just a totally different field than what they've done in the past. So I think that is a great first step. I mean, obviously, still the same people making the decisions,

but you can see that their process at least is different. And obviously, it's way to really know if the result will be better. But I think obviously at this point, all we can evaluate is the process. And it definitely seems better than four years ago. So other than the GM candidate pool skewing younger than it has in the past, is there anything that you could take away from the group of guys? Is there a similar background?

are they, you know, casting a wider net in terms of, you know, guys who maybe come from the football operation side or from the salary cap side or, you know, scouting side. What is there a, is there kind of a main takeaway from who this batch of candidates is? No, I mean, I think it's pretty diverse. I mean, you have some guy like Adrian Wilson who was, you know, a pro bowl player not too long ago. So he's, he's obviously risen the ranks fast in Arizona. You know, again, that's a very un-giant, like, you know, higher in terms of, you know, he's not, he didn't spend 20 years.

is somebody's understudy and, you know, obviously not a Giants executive. He's been in Arizona. But no, I think that the kind of defining trade is that it is kind of varied. I mean, they have, you know, a lot of guys who are on the list of other teams. There's no like, oh, my goodness, they're injuring that person. It's all people who are in NFL front offices, have been in NFL front offices for a good number of years. There's no, there's no females.

There's no outside of football people. So nothing too crazy. But again, baby steps for this organization that, again, the last time they had a DM search basically, like looked around the room and picked somebody. So they like went to their favorites list on their iPhone and was like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So definitely. Definitely a broader search. And yeah, I mean, I think that skewing younger, I don't know that necessarily is better, but I think it just shows a different approach to it. All right. So let's get into this head coaching opening. Obviously, it's only technically been open for about 24 hours when we're recording this.

What's your sense on who the candidates are going to be? And who do you? you maybe think they should look for in terms of background qualities, those sorts of things? Yeah. Well, I mean, the interesting part is it's almost impossible to, I mean, it would be total speculation because to their credit, they are letting, you know, the GM is going to drive that process. Because again, it's the topic of the day around here is kind of ownership's meddling, whatever you want to call it. So I think it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to maybe conduct some head coaching interviews, but I think that they are just saying, no, we're not going to do that. we're going to wait till our GM's in place, then he's going to leave the search, which is,

I think, understandable. I mean, there's certainly a potential that you're going to lose out on some top candidates because there are teams out there who don't have a GM opening who can just be full speed ahead. You know, obviously, we have these windows here where, you know, guys from playoff teams are only available, certain dates. But I don't think you can sit here and worry about, like, missing on a one or two candidates. I don't think there's any one guy that you should, you know, kind of mess with your overall approach to make sure you get them in the building.

So it's obviously going to depend. largely on who the GM is. You know, it's easy to kind of play the game of a package deal. John Marr said that won't be the case. But, I mean, listen, if Joe Shane comes from Buffalo, it wouldn't be crazy for to think Brian David will come with him. Or, you know, Adam Peters from San Francisco, would he bring Damico Ryan's?

Or he's been linked with Josh McDaniels because they both were in New England and Denver together. I mean, like, so you can start going down those paths. It's a little premature to do that. But, of course, that's part of the fun of this. personally, I think they just should go get a great offensive mind. Like I know that head coach does more than call plays and the Giants of head guys like Ben McAdoo and Pat Shermer, who McAdo famously had his head buried in the play sheet.

And, you know, that wasn't a great look. But just seeing how bad this offense was, I just think that's still the avenue I would try and keep taking swings at, get a great offensive mind in here. I think that makes it a lot easier to find a defensive coordinator than it is to find a great OC. You find a great OC, he's going to go be head coach in a year or two, any in your back of square one. So that's where my search would start. I really can't even say with an educated guess where the Giants will go.

Because, I mean, like you said, Judge was a wildcard. So as much as we say they kind of do things by the book, that was way outside the box. So they don't really have a type per se. Yeah. So obviously, offensive-minded, I think that makes a ton of sense, given what their struggles have been lately. Are there any other qualities that you think, you know, either it was stuff that Joe Judge and Pat Shermer, Ben McAdoo were lacking. A lot of times we do see teams kind of go the complete opposite.

direction, right, personality-wise, or schematically or the other side of the ball, those some sorts of things. Are there, you know, things that went wrong specifically with these last coaches that they can avoid qualities that maybe they should look for in the next guy? It is funny. And you mentioned that they kind of teams will ping pong. They'll go from the players coach, the disciplinary, and the offense guy, the defensive guy.

So that's why, like, if they really want to, like, reset sort of the volume and the noise, you go like, like, Jim Caldwell, who you know is going to be very calm. measured and like he's got a proven track record. I mean, I don't know that'd be the most aspiring choice, but if you're trying to go like the opposite of Joe Judge Young, inexperienced, a little bit brash, like Jim Caldwell is the other end of the spectrum. Do you want to go with an experienced guy like Doug Peterson? I mean, I don't think there's anybody else on the market who's going to have a Super Bowl

ring on their finger. So that might be appealing. But I don't know. I don't think that there's one defining trait that doom these other coaches. I think there's a lot of factors. And I think that's why just firing the head coach every two years hasn't solved their problems. Obviously, I think there's deeper problems in the organization.

I think the much bigger problem these last four years has been Dave Gettlement. So the first step is get a really good GM, give him some better players. And then I think you'll find the next head coach has more success just based on that. But yeah, I don't know that there's like, oh, man, they just need to get someone who does X, Y, and Z because that's why the predecessors failed. So earlier in the show, Jeff Howe and I talked about all of the other openings. And one of the things that we talk about when you're looking at these jobs is why is this job attractive? And every team and organization likes to think that their job is the most attractive and they're going. going to get the best group of candidates. So what is the sell you think that John Mara is making

about why this head coaching job should be really attractive? Well, I guess first off, they'd like to say we just hired a great GM. I think that would be a good start, you know. But no, I mean, I think you look at it. There is some talent on this roster. As bad as they underachieve this year. And as much as people don't like use injuries as excuse, I mean, they really did not have their weapons on the field together very much. So, you know, I think Kenny Galdi was a massive disappointment. Caduce Tony is a massive enigma. But those two guys, you know, there's some pieces to build around there.

You know, obviously, whatever you think about, Sequin, there's still talent there. I don't know that Daniel Jones would be a big selling point. But, again, there's some pieces. I think defensively they're probably even more pieces. I mean, again, I don't know. It depends if they're going to come in and just say, we're doing a total rebuild. I don't know that they're in position to do that because they have so many high-price guys and the restructured into the max.

I don't know that they could just get out of some of these. you know, Leonard Williams and James and James Bradbury type contracts. So I think you come in and say, I got a decent roster. It's not great, but I have a decent roster. The lack of cap space is going to really hamstring you. But on the flip side of that, where you have to sell, it is two top 10 picks. I mean, how many openings can say that?

Obviously, not very many. And they have, I think, three picks and five picks in like the top eight. So that's the chance. Maybe that's more of a selling point to the GM, but that's the selling point of like, okay, it doesn't look great right now, but we're going to get these picks right. We have not gotten them right. So once we start getting them right, boom, we're going to turn around quick. But the quarterback situation, I kind of glossed over as I mulled that in my head, that's a tough one.

Because I don't know that you're just like, all right, we're definitely done with Daniel Jones and starting from scratch. And especially with this draft, I don't know that there's that guy that you feel compelled to do that with. They don't have money to go get somebody else. So it feels like he's kind of your bridge quarterback. Usually you talk about bridge quarterback. It's like go out and sign a veteran. But like Daniel Jones just might be that guy. I don't think you pick up his fifth year option.

I think you just say, all right, we've seen some signs. I don't think he's ever going to be a top 10 type guy, but maybe he can hold down the forward as you sort of build up the roster around and they've got to finally address the offensive line and then really maybe take a step back next off season and obviously have to make a really big decision on quarterback going forward because either Jones is going to be a free agent or you drafted a guy. I mean, there's so many variables with that quarterback situation, but it's not like, oh, yeah, we just walk in. We have a ready-made franchise quarterback. So a little bit more on Daniel Jones. I mean, what needs to happen over the next couple of months?

I mean, he's coming off of a pretty significant neck injury. Are there, what's your sense on what is reasonable to expect from him this off season? Is he going to have surgery on that? Where does he kind of stand there? Yeah, from everything he has said, and I've heard, he doesn't need surgery. It's really, you know, it was such a mysterious circumstance. But I think at this point, there'd be no reason to play games. I mean, if you'd need surgery, he'd get surgery.

There's no more gamesmanship once you're on IR and obviously the season's over now. So I do think it, you know, they're at least hopeful. it truly is just going to be rest. And, you know, as he said, like, someone asks, like, you know, we'll be ready to go next year. It's like, well, I mean, what will we be able to do? He's it was eight months before contact. So I can do everything I've been doing. And, you know, obviously in August we'll find out of a contact.

He has no reason to believe he won't be cleared. So, I mean, I think you proceed as if he'll be healthy. And again, they have access to the medical records. But again, no reason I don't think to be, you know, kind of secretive about that at this point. So I think you proceed as if he'll be healthy. Again, the question is, you proceed as if he'll be your starting quarterback. You know, they certainly have to go through the draft process and seriously, you know, consider if they're going to fall in love with one of these guys. I mean, I don't think Daniel Jones presence should deter you from that, you know, at all.

It's going to be tough to trade him, I would think with the neck injury kind of looming. And, you know, it doesn't have the highest value base in the way he's played the last couple of years. Like I said, I don't think you touch the fifth year option. So the way I could come back to was like, I think you just ride it out with him, but you must get a better backup quarterback. If not a guy who's actually going to compete with something the job, so I don't even think you say like, oh, we get a Colton-McCle. who they obviously had a couple years ago to be the backup. I think you go get like Marcus Marriota and say like it's a competition and you can win the job because I do not think Daniel Jones has done nearly enough to merit like you're this

unquestioned starter. But even if he wins a job, they can't have Mike Lennon and Jake Fromm waiting in the wings for a guy who's missed games in each of his three seasons. Do you think there's any chance they get in the veteran quarterback trade market? I mean, they do have a lot of capital. Yeah. I mean, again, it's like these are these are topics that were fun to debate when we thought we knew who was going to be in these seats making the decisions.

now. It's like we don't even know who's going to be making the decisions. I mean, listen, I think they'd be crazy to not find out if all this Russell Wilson's smoke is real. I mean, it's been out there now for like years where it's always kind of whispered that he wants to come to New York. Now, I don't know if that's realistic for a number of reasons. Again, we'll have to find out what the next GM head coach think about it. I do know I think that the past, you know, regime would have looked into it. Again, how could you not? I mean, I know you could have a down year. The injury, you have to at least explore that. I know the cap would be tough. A million different factors why it might not work. but I think you have to at least explore that.

I mean, I don't see any other veterans. I mean, I don't think Aaron Rogers is coming here. You know, I don't think they're touching Deshawn Watson. So it's really kind of Russell Wilson or bust. I mean, I don't think you go make a trade or, you know, like Jimmy Garoppelo's, some fans are trying his name, but I don't think that makes any sense. You're going to pay that much money for a guy who's, is he really demonstrably better than Daniel Jones. So I think it's either kind of Daniel Jones, rookie, and then, you know,

you know, you got upgraded the backup quarterback. But it's not, it's not a great situation quarterback-wise to, walk into. Yeah, it's wild. I mean, look, I live in Denver where they're having all of these exact same conversations, Washington, Pittsburgh. I mean, there's a long list of teams that are trying to figure out what pools they can dip their feet into when it comes to the quarterback market this offseason. And there's not a lot of great options, unfortunately. Well, before I let you go, I want to circle back on Judge Edge a little bit because he was kind of great fun for those of us outside of the New York market because his press conferences were wild and

his practice antics were wild. what are you ultimately going to remember most about the judge era? What was it? Do you have any moments, you know, or also just kind of like, what is his legacy going to be after two years there? I mean, his legacy probably won't be very good, you know, because it's like, history won't remember him fondly, probably. No, because even like a guy like Ben McAdoo had, you know, had not even two full years,

but he had, you know, the playoff season, the boat trip, the Eli benching, so he had a lot of dramatic memories in his time. You know, Judge has the QB Sneaks, the 11-minute rant. So there's a memorable moment's there. And then there's a guy like Pat Shermer who like won't even remember in 20 years. Like who was the coach between McAdoo and Judge? You're like, so for better aware, like Judge has some kind of low lights that'll be remembered.

But I mean, I will say like I feel like he definitely kind of got a raw deal. I'm not saying he should have been retained. I'm just saying he came into a bad situation with a bad general manager and it didn't go well. Like that's kind of tough. Like he was the first time head coach. He certainly had some self-inflicted wounds. I enjoy dealing with him, especially, you know, aside from that Chicago press conference, Just on the day to day, he wasn't just like grumbling out answers like most coaches.

He was kind of entertaining and interesting to talk to. I mean, you could definitely get him going on a topic for five minutes, not even something like that. The diatribe, he would just, you know, he could talk. That was as a media member, of course, you like that. But yeah, I think a lot of the outside perception of him doesn't exactly match up with who he was day to day. Because, I mean, I think he did some stuff that made him like a caricature. But I think the whole idea that he was like trying to be Bella check and stuff. Like, I got to know him pretty well.

I think he was himself, for better or worse. I don't think he was trying to be anything that he wasn't. Like some of the stuff about making guys run laps. That was all overblown. I don't think players really cared about that. So, yeah, I don't know. It's just, I just look back. He's a guy like a year ago.

If you did a poll of Giants fans, I would say 90% would have been optimistic that they have, like, their potential next Tom Coughlin, Bill Parsett. Like, that's how high the approval ratings were off a six and 10th season. But he had really just had that presence. And then it's just remarkable, like the fall from grace. is like none I've ever seen. Even when McHood, who had a winning season this first year,

I don't feel like the fans totally sold on him. I feel like they were on judge. So I think maybe that's his legacy. It's just, it's wild to think how quickly, you know, thing can change the NFL. And, you know,

within a year, he goes from people believing he might be the head coach for 20 years to obviously not even seen year of three. All right. Well, Dan, thank you so much for joining me today. I know it's a super busy day. So make sure you guys are reading the athletic,

subscribe to the athletic. Dan will have all of the news about the G. higher and then the coach hire and all of the drama that will surely follow because the Giants are always full of drama. So Dan, thank you so much. And we'll, next time we'll talk about fun football stuff. Maybe you're on the draft when the Giants have number five and number eight. Sounds good. The draft feels like years away. It's a busy couple of weeks ahead here. Awesome. Well, thanks, Dan. Thank you.

That's all we've got today. Robert will be back tomorrow with Nate and Shield to preview all the wild card games. Thank you. so much. This was the athletic football show.