The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Remembering John Madden + Mina Kimes on the future of the Pete Carroll-Russell Wilson Seattle Seahawks

Episode Date: December 29, 2021

Robert Mays begins the episode by remembering NFL Hall of Fame coach and commentator, John Madden. Then, ESPN’s Mina Kimes joins the show to discuss the legacy and future of the Pete Carroll era in Seattle. How did the Seahawks get to this point? Will they trade Russell Wilson? How will the front office approach this offseason? They dive into all of that and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show is presented by State Farm, because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today is Wednesday, December 29th. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Mina Khymes from ESPN is going to be joining us to chat about the past, present and future of her beloved Seattle Seahawks.

Obviously, a period of transition happening in Seattle. A lot going on there. I wanted to get Mina's take on where the Seahawks. are and honestly where they might go. Before we do that, though, I wanted to talk about the passing of John Madden. Obviously, the news came down on Tuesday evening, and I just wanted to talk about what John Madden meant to generations of football fans. I remember being six years old and playing Madden 94 on my Super Nintendo in my room. It was the first iteration of the game that I had. It was the first year, the last year, before they had names. So Jim Harbaugh was quarterback number four on the

bears. And I remember playing the game and obviously there'd be a little bits of John Madden commentary, but I remember turning the volume down and I would play the game and I would call the game. I would be my own color commentator and play by play guy because I want to be John Medd. It's really the first job in sports that I ever wanted was to call games. And so much of that was because of John Madden. We use the term icon to describe some people. And John Madden was that. He was unbelievably iconic and he was ubiquitous. 1994 was also the year that Fox got NFL games and hired John Madden. So I would watch Bears games every single Sunday and often it'd be John Madden and Pat

Summerall and you would just hang out with them for three and a half hours every Sunday here and then and they would be in your living room. And the way that John Madden could communicate the game, the way that he could explain the game while also giving you a window into his enthusiasm for the game, to not only make it interesting, but to make it fun. I feel like he informed the way so many of us see and think about the sport, the way so many of us want to talk about the sport. The fact that he wasn't just the Super Bowl winning coach

or the greatest commentator of all time, or someone who had a hand in making a video game that literally shaped decades worth of football lovers and thinkers, I think you can make an argument that no one has been more responsible for creating football fans over the last 30, 40 years, essentially my entire lifetime than John Madden. He's an absolute titan in this world. And the way that he talked about the game, the way that he loved the game, it was infectious. And I hope that that legacy lives on. I think it undoubtedly will.

So we will talk a lot more about John Madden here in the next day or so. So with Lindsay, with some other people that we're going to have on the show. But for now, let's get to Mina. I was watching the Seahawks Bears game on Sunday. And this feeling kind of crept over me. You know what? This kind of feels like the end, right? I don't know what's going to happen.

But this era of Seahawks football that we've watched for the last 10 years, Russell Wilson, Pete Carroll, kind of this unstoppable success that they've had. It feels like this is petering out. And it feels like we're in a point of transition. And I really wanted to dig into that and to look back a little bit to kind of consider the present, past, and future of the Seattle Seahawks franchise because of the place they've held in the NFL world for so long. And to do that, I wanted to welcome a big Seahawks fan, a friend of the show, ESPN's

Mina Kimes. Mina, how are you? Not great now. I mean, you invited me on this show like a month ago before you came up with this idea. So I still, I had this in the back of my mind as what I wanted to do. And it just worked out perfectly. Wow. It worked out so well.

Do you know that there's that ESPN Plus docu series, The Man in the Arena? They're, I guess, doing an after show. And some producer, I'm not going to compare myself to Bill Belichick being asked about his nearest resolution, but some poor producer asked me if I wanted to come on for the 49, Super Bowl 49 episode. And I was like, no, absolutely not. I'm sorry. Like, you know, I said it respectfully. But no interest in reliving that.

But I, but I actually, this is not just reliving. This is forward looking. And it is this discussion you and I are about to have is a discussion that, uh, me and our mutual friend Danny Kelly and our friend Jackson Bevins have literally every day. So I'm excited to have it in a public sphere. Well, that's kind of what I wanted to tap into here is just the collective angst that's probably happening on Seahawks Twitter right now.

So where are you? Now that we're a couple of days removed from that game, I'm just wondering which stage of grief you guys are collectively in now in this moment. and that it's Tuesday evening. No, no, that hit way weeks ago, weeks ago. Okay, all right, okay. Yeah, I was desensitized by the time. I actually wouldn't have watched the Bears game.

Yeah, I know, right? Well, not you got, you have reasons to live, but I wasn't planning on watching, but I was home. So my family made me watch. And let me tell you the discourse in the kind of household. There's talk of trading Russell Wilson for Derek Carr, There's talk of, there's a lot of, a lot of disparaging comments made by my dad. Nothing like angry dad fan takes.

But I think I lost hope probably, hmm, Cardinals, the Colt McCoy game is probably worse. That when I still was holding out a little bit. I think there was still a, you know, over 20% chance maybe of a main playoffs. I might be overestimating it. But it's been pretty brutal for a while. So you're looking at it right now. I think this is the second time since 2012 that they won't make the playoffs. It's the first time in 10 years they're going to finish with a losing record.

Which that's kind of why I wanted to talk about this, just because they hold such a place. For me especially, I think the timing of both when you and I started doing this was kind of right when they were at their height, right? I mean, I started working at Grantland in 2011. And so when I really started covering the NFL full time every single day, like the Seahawks were the best team in the NFL. They were the most prominent franchise in the league. I remember going, I think it was during the 2012 season. I went to watch them play the Niners.

And I think it was a Sunday night game early in that season in Seattle. And I remember writing a story that night about how the Seahawks had become the coolest franchise in football. Like just the feeling in the stadium and the guys that they had and just the overall aura around that team, and that was almost 10 years ago now. But people who made up that team, Pete Carroll, Bobby Wagner, Russell Wilson, they're still there. So that's kind of the thing is that we've watched this era unfold over the last 10 years, and the rises and falls they've had over the course of that time, they have existed,

right? There's been little ebbs and flows. But for the most part, the Seahawks have held a really prominent place in the NFL landscape for as long as I've thought about the NFL in this way. I think the Bears game that year could arguably. be Russell Wilson's kind of national coming out. I don't remember if that was a national game, but that was the one where... I think it was. I think it was a Monday night game where Cindy Jones had the scary

catch at the end in the Ed zone. He got his head hit. Cindy Jones, goodness. Cindy Rice. Cindy Rice. God. There's an hour of Sidney Jones and he is definitely not Citi Rice. But yeah, that and the Pats game that year, the famous UMAD pro game. I think we're the big Russell was watching that with Bill Simmons, which was an experience. It's all in the tone. Oh, God. Yeah.

I think you're right. I think it was, it's amazing to reflect back on. I think now there's a lot of despair and dissatisfaction and like frustration and trying to pin down what's been the problem in Seattle this year. What can be fixed? What can't be fixed? Is it rebuilt? When it's worth sitting back and recognizing how hard it is to be a winning franchise for a decade.

There are very few teams with one quarterback that have been successful as long as Seattle's been until this year. Even the off years, I think, you know, as you mentioned, we're over 500. So I think it's whatever I'm about to say about Peter Clay Carroll, I want to acknowledge that that is very, very, very hard to do in the modern salary cap era. So when we get to the end, we'll get wistful again. But let's talk about kind of how we got here because I think that's an important part of whatever forensic analysis we're about to do. If you were trying to divvy out blame for why this season has looked the way that it does, why the franchise has reached this point, where would you start? I think you have to start with the draft classes.

I've had this pretty hard on our show, but, you know, just the track record post-2000. I mean, you see, John Schneider had an absolute heater, one of the all-time, you know, two or three-year drafts going from, let's see, 2010 is when they get Russell O'C., Coom, Earl Thomas, Golden Tate, Cam Chancellor. I forget about Golden Tate in there. 11, I know, good player, great Seahawk. 2011, you got KJ. Wright and Richard Sherman and Byron Maxwell and Super Bowl MVP Malcolm Smith. 2012 is when the party ends with the Bruce Irvin, Bruce Irvin, Bruce Irp and Bobby,

who's all on the Bears? I had no freaking idea, by the way, until our game. Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner, Russell Wilson, in that draft. And then Jeremy Lane, who actually was part of the lead to the boom as well. So those three years were incredibly dominant. But after that, it's a pretty atrocious draft record,

especially with the early picks wasted. You know, they've traded down a lot, which makes sense. They're a good team picking your end of the draft, desirable spot. But they haven't really made use of those picks, I would say, outside of, you know, Lockett, Title Lockett, of course, third round 2015,

DK Metcalf a couple years ago, in the second round. But otherwise, it's been pretty dismal. And I just think going back to the original question of how difficult it is to be a dominant franchise, it's actually kind of amazing. They've been as good as they've been, despite being such a bad drafting team for so long. If you look at it, since that 2012 class,

how many stars have they drafted? One and two of them. Is that it? Tyler Lock and Frank Clark is that that's probably it, right? And then Metcalfe. And those three guys over that entire stretch are probably the only three players that you can say are like real difference making players. And even that, I mean, Tyler Lockett's not one of the best 10 receivers in the league. He never probably never was.

It's right on the edge. I would disagree. I think there's been points where he's been there. But yeah, that's fair right now. Yeah. He's a good player. Tyler Lockett's a very good player. But that's about as high as it rises.

And then you look at the misses. So not only were they not hitting guys at the top, they weren't hitting guys, period, for most of this stretch. I mean, since 2017, it's been brutal, right? You look at the first and second round picks, Malik McDowell, Ethan Pochich, Rashad Penny. In 2018, they traded their second round pick for Sheldon Richardson, which I totally forgot before starting to.

There's a lot of really insane trades if you want to get into that. I was just hitting the draft, but some of the trades. Just the overall capital in the way it was used. I forgot that Sheldon Richardson was part of this. Eljit Collier and Marcus Blair in this first and second round in 2019. Probably a healthy scratch. Sorry. And then obviously we get to the Jamal Adams part of this.

And then 2020, it's Jordan Brooks and Daryl Taylor. Those are the first and second round picks and the way they use their draft capital in those two rounds over the last five years. Yeah, I think jury still out on Brooks and Taylor. I mean, you know, Brooks drafting an offball linebacker there. Dubious, I think, for, you know, given some of the team's needs, I think they're kind of looking ahead to moving when they eventually move on from Bobby Wagner, which is something we can talk about. But yeah, and then Taylor was injured, you know, his rookie season.

But it's it's a horrible record. The trades also like, you know, you mentioned the Shelton Richardson trade. They have traded other, there's been other massive first round trades, the Jimmy Graham trade, the Percy Harvin trade. Funnily enough, they've actually had a lot better success with trades in the later rounds. I think if you want to give, I know this is pretty hard on John Schneider, if you want to give him any points, the trade for Dwayne Brown, I think, was undeniably a win for Seattle. And Diggs too. And Diggs too. Yeah. So Quondry Diggs and Dwayne Brown is the other

played. They both been excellent players. Diggs, you know, they gave up almost nothing for. And that was a huge, huge win. But I think those small wins and some of the signings around the margins are far outweighed by just the misuse of draft capital, especially in the early rounds. When you look at it, where do you think practically it's been the most important? It's been the most impactful. Where has that lack of draft success manifested the most in your mind? I would say the secondary, you know, when the Legion of Boom disintegrated, it was, it was hard to watch.

You could explain a lot. Some of it was, you know, the Earl Thomas, wanting extension, not getting it. Richard Sherman can't answer. There was injuries involved. But at that point, Pete Carroll had such a record of finding and developing these defensive backs that I think there was some faith in the franchise's ability to do that. And they did take shots in the draft.

But, you know, in Shaquille Griffin, they decided not to extend, for example. I think it was second round, right, if I remember correctly. It was the third round in 2017. Okay. So they did trade flour. They just simply haven't worked out. this is a team that just has had very, very, very bad judgment or whatever when it comes to the secondary.

I think the pass rush as well, though that's a little bit complicated by, you know, the middle-dow pick kind of going sideways. But I would start with the secondary just because, you know, once that fell apart, there was just never anyone stepping into the place of those players. If you look at it right now, they're 24. 23rd in dropback EPA per play this year. They're 30th in dropback success rate. The only teams that they're ahead of are the Jets and the Texas in dropback success rate this

season. And when you've spent the amount they have on defense, and that's where a lot of these misses in the draft have come, early misses over the last few years, is that they've put a lot of draft capital and resources into the defense, and the defense is below average to bad. And when you do that, there's just no way around it. I mean, it's really, really hard to overcome that. especially when you've taken the dip on offense that they have here over the last season and a half, I guess, from the middle of last year. Yeah.

And I think that that's sort of where there's a little bit of a chicken or the egg thing between personnel and coaching. You know, I think, I mean, I'm focused on the personnel side. I think when you're looking at this team and you're really trying to figure, you know, identify the biggest culprit. The misses are just so obvious. I also understand there's been some frustration with the evolution of the scheme or lack there out, although it has changed a lot since the iconic Pete Carroll cover three or whatever. But are these players being used the right way? And that's where I think scheme and person are coaching in the front office meet.

Not only is Pete Carroll involved in front offices, but in my mind, when you make a trade like you do for a player like Jamal Adams, dramatic franchise altering trade, you got to know how to use him. You got to have an idea of where he fits into your defense, what he can do, how the other players fit around him. And I think that, again, is an area where you can point to this being a failure on multiple parties, or I guess the blood lies. God, I'm trying not to be too dramatic. It's not great across the board is what I'm trying to say. If you look at it right now, the only teams with the worst pressure rate this season, according to pro football reference than Seattle are Houston, Detroit, the Giants, the Colts, and the Falcons.

That's it, which is rough. It is a rough group to be a part of. A one that makes sense. All the other teams in there makes sense. That's like, by the way, again, coaching this has been a frustrating thing. Like, I can't even count the number of times this season where I've seen Carlos Dunlap drop into coverage because they run sort of a weirdo three, four now. And I don't understand it.

But I still put that below the personnel and the defensive personnel. And I think that's the biggest reason why this team is not succeeded. We can talk about the offense and sort of what. And the offense in Russell Wilson is probably where you have to start when you're deciding what the future of this franchise looks like. But if you're asking me, why is this team so bad? Why have they been bad? Why have they not, you know, reach the levels that they did during that part of the current

era, it is because of the defense and the lack of success? When they traded for Jamal Adams, I feel like part of the justification that people made at that moment was when you have a superstar quarterback, right? When you have a guy that's an MVP caliber quarterback, you can only be so bad. Like where could you really be picking as long as he's on the roster? Which is really dangerous thinking. And we've seen that backfire a couple different times. In Houston, that backfire with what Deshawn Watson did after they traded for the left tackle. And now it's happening in Seattle.

They're about to give the sixth overall pick right now to the Jets. And if you look at it, I was shocked. when I looked at the numbers today. Since week nine of last year, which is their first game against the Rams, it kind of did feel like a pivot moment of last season. The first time they played against the Rams, it felt like that's when things kind of shifted a little bit

in the middle of the year. Since then, when the NFL is covered cover two. Yes, right? The way that they played them, it seems like a lot of people copied that. So since then, among 36 players with at least 300 pass attempts,

Russell Wilson ranks 26th in EPA per dropback. He's just behind Drew Locke. and just ahead of Daniel Jones. Those are the two guys that he is sandwiched between over that stretch. Now, there is a lot to unpack with the causes of that and why that might be the case. But when you look at the actual production on the field, he has been one of the least productive, least efficient quarterbacks in football over the last year and a half.

And at a certain point, that's all that matters when you think about the finished product on the field. Yeah. And I think it's an important point because, as we look ahead to the decision that this team has to make that other teams potentially will make if they decide to trade for Russell Wilson, you have to ask, okay, this underperformance, which as you said, goes back to about halfway through last season. So it's not just post-finger injury. Is it something that can be fixed? How much of it has to do with the pieces around him, the scheme, the coaching, the offensive line, his own abilities, his style of play? And unfortunately, I think every single one of those things factors into it, which makes it pretty gnarly to, you know, to figure out.

It's so hard to untangle. That's the hardest part of this. I think, I mean, I just, we can get into the Wilson stuff right now as someone who's watched him play his entire NFL career, watched every snap. You know, he is such a unique player. He is incredible Hall of Fame talent, incredible arm. when he's healthy, one of the best deep ball passers in the NFL. He will never play in a normal offense, in my opinion. You know, the her I tell you, you want to get you be normal. That's how I feel watching sometimes. And the, when I say that by which I mean,

this sort of dependence at times on extended playmaking on third down, that Russell Wilson magic, you know, it's not just because they run on early down. Some of it is baked into his game, his style of play. He will take more. There will be negative plays. He will take more sacks than other quarterbacks. The reward is that those magic moments.

I think now the problem, what's been issue, I think, over the last season and a half is not that the Rams, I was joking earlier with the cover two, not that they, not that they, what they did and what teens have done. has limited the deep ball, right? Yeah. And while being able to sort of consistently get interior pressure against, you know, dicey offensive line, interior offensive line, what the problem is, in my mind, with his play and over the last year and a half

is a lot of that is predicated on his elusiveness. A big part of the reason, you know, he's never going to be that guy who consistently hits six to seven-yard throws over the middle of the field. That's just not who is. If he's not elusive, then that takes away a lot of those. magical plays and then all of a sudden what's left, I think. And you're still talking about a guy with a great arm, I think, who is deadly accurate when he has time. And maybe behind an incredible offensive line, all this stuff won't matter. I think that's entirely possible, by the way,

the offensive line is not great. But I think what's gone is the Russell Wilson who can do those things behind a bad offensive line. And so as we talk, look ahead to his future, I feel like that part of his game is what's probably never going to be exactly what it was. If you just think about how unique he is and you think about that idea kind of filtered through the changes they've made at their offensive coordinator spot over the last couple of years, at a certain level, no matter who's calling plays, it's the Russell Wilson offense. That's what it's ultimately going to be. And I think that's driven some of the frustration with the struggles they've had as they've pinged between play callers over the last couple years.

So as you think about that, and again, the things he can do and what he's going to be, that lack of ability to attack the intermediate middle of the field, kind of the very specific way he has to play. It kind of feels like he's one of those quarterbacks just not going to age gracefully. I keep going back to something that Nate says talking about Baker Mayfield, or he says, Baker Mayfield is Russell Wilson without the athleticism. and now Russell Wilson is Russell Wilson without the athleticism. I think that may be a little bit harsh, but that's kind of how it feels is that if you take that away, what is he? And I don't know exactly how bad that gets. I was talking to a GM a couple weeks ago, and I just floated the idea of if Russell Wilson was available right now, would you trade like multiple first round picks for Russell Wilson?

And he instantly said yes. And it feels like we should probably interrogate that maybe a little bit more. Like is he worth that right now? What is he worth of what is he going to be over the next three years? I think it depends on the team, candidly. Our buddy Bill Barnwell, our buddy Bill Ronwell, I feel like that's, you call him your buddy, but our mutual friend, he threw out the Saints as a potential trade destination. And obviously that would take insane cap gymnastics comically so to the point where I almost

want to see it happen just to see if, you know, the FTC investigates the New Orleans effort. But that's a destination that I actually think you could see a revival of Wilson because what I think differentiates him from Mayfield. And that's why I kind of interjected there as a little bit. I still think that super accurate passer is there consistently. I think he throws a better football. I think he is careful with the football as well. You know, he's good at avoiding interceptions, turnover worthy plays.

I just think what's gone is, you. You can't put him behind a trash offensive line anymore. That's gone. So, you know, as we look at other destinations, I don't like the Giants as a team that's been thrown out there. That does not make sense to me at all, for example. And I think that was sort of what made things complicated for Seattle, right? Because for years, it used to have a worse offensive line, believe or not.

I want to say like around 2015, 16, it was worse. The post-Rust Russell Kung era. I was looking back at it today. in 2016 is when that shift happened. That's when Rukh left, and that's the year where Lynch was hurt for a huge chunk of the season. That's kind of like the first dip in their offensive production. Before Dwayne Brown entered the picture,

I think he shored things up a little bit. I think he's been really, really good for them. But, you know, it was always kind of question, like how much you want to invest in offensive line? Because weirdly, you've got a quarterback where he's going to make them look worse because of his style of play. And maybe actually, this might be kind of galaxy brain, but like when we're thinking about where we're allocating grab capital or whatever,

maybe it's better for him to have like a super speedy receiver, I don't know, or whatever, to invest in the defense. That's just not been the case to the last three years. I really think what's changed is that escapability. When you watch him now, you know, we can talk about the finger and that affecting his throws and maybe every now and then when he sails one, it's probably because he did get mallet finger or whatever. that ain't affecting his ability to run

and he doesn't run anymore. And that's, again, if I was Russell, I wasn't playing for these, I wouldn't run either. But, um, I think, like I don't blame him for not being as elusive for mobile as it used to be. I just, if I'm a GM looking at him and thinking, how does he fit into my team? I think that's

what's changed. Um, however, I do think there's a good chance. He'd go to a team with a better offensive line than Seattle, where he does have a tick longer. And if he does have a tick longer, maybe he's able to make some of those those throws, which I do think you are, you know, he's still entirely capable of. So I think it really comes down to the destination and it will affect the remaining arc of his career. Maybe he'll stay in Seattle, by the way, more than anything I can think of. All right. So I want to talk about just Russell Wilson and how we'll think

about him. But talking about whether he's going to stay in Seattle. Let's do that right now. So in an ideal world, what will the next three months of the Seahawks franchise look like for you? Well, so I hate to say, get rid of the sky, get rid of this guy, although I am on the show first take. So I guess I do that a lot. But I think at this point, the front office record speaks for itself. I also will add they just gave, they meaning Jody Allen, you know, new ownership, gave John Snyder a massive contract extension last year. as well as Pete Carrow, I think through 2027 in Schneider's case. So this is a little of Judy Allen, probably eating millions and millions of dollars.

I don't know. But you're just from me to times, me, football observer, I think that they've been unsuccessful for all the reasons you and I have just laid out. And for whatever comes next, whether you're keeping Wilson or not, by the way, whether you have the opportunity to use whatever draft capital you would have, or players, you would acquire in a trade. I don't know what this front office has done over the last now nine years that makes you think they're going to make the right decisions going forward. So I would start there. You know, I think then you move on to Wilson and Carolyn with Wilson,

to me, it really comes down to what would the trade return look like. I actually, think it's because there's a point there's a real point where like I think what you would get for him would not be worth it like you know when I hear things like less than multiple more than one first rounder and or a quarterback or whatever I start to think eh I'd rather bet on him getting back to where he was you know a couple seasons ago than taking that and trying to rebuild with that, especially given the draft or going into the quarterbacks that would be available. If, however, you're looking at a trade like the one that Bill proposed, multiple firsts, multiple picks, maybe players, maybe quarterbacks, then I think it is something you consider.

And that's not just because of Russell Wilson's play over the last year and a half. That's also just because of the team around him. This is not a Super Bowl roster. And I think at a certain point, as an organization, you have to be real. about what you have on your team. They do have a lot of cap space, but I don't think they have enough cap space and certainly not draft picks because of the mistakes made to where, oh yeah, we can just, you know,

rejigger things instead of entering a full rebuild. It's interesting because they have an opportunity to hit the reset button here in a pretty smooth way. So what I was thinking in my mind, it's more of the structure of the trade rather than the specific team fit because I actually don't think it works schematically. that well and it's kind of an overlap of what we're seeing right now.

But like the Browns, for example, if the Browns were to give you the Matthew Stafford trade, where they trade you two first round picks and Baker Mayfield for Russell Wilson, would you do that? Two first round picks and Baker Mayfield. God. Their picks aren't that good. Essentially the same as the Stafford. Yeah, I don't, I actually don't think that would be a great trade for Seattle, candidly, because I think I don't have that much belief in Baker

Mayfield candidly. And so then you're looking at two firsts. And I guess you could use those to rebuild, but they're not great draft picks. Um, hang on, I guess what the Browns end up. I don't know. I'd like, I think they could get more than that sent for from just the draft picks point of view, as opposed to the quarterbacks. Like I would, let me put this way. I would rather get more first round picks and just totally hit reset, take a pause on quarterback, get some sort of filler situation, and then pick someone the following year. by the way, with Mayfield entering his fifth year option. I think that makes total sense.

So if you do something like that, let's say you get three first round picks for a team. Sure. They have like $60 million in cap space. They would get out from a good chunk of Russell Wilson's contract. And there's really no one on the roster that you feel that tied to, right? Bobby Wagner is on an extension. Jamal Adams is now on an extension. But Twain Brown is hitting free agency.

Quadra Diggs is hitting free agency. So that's what I mean when it's a chance to kind of hit a rebuild in a smooth way. The problem is, if Wilson's the guy you're moving on from, then you're entrusting whatever that rebuild looks like to John Snyder and Pete Carroll. And I don't know how good you feel about that. That's why to go back, yeah, to me, it all starts there. I just don't know how you can look at the track record of this.

I think the Carroll question is a little bit more complicated than the Schneider one, candidly, because I, as frustrated as I've been with, you know, some of Pete Carroll's game management and, some of the emphasis on running during the parts when Russell Wilson was awesome and they shouldn't have run the football as much. I am not sure that they would find an immediate upgrade in the head coaching market this offseason. And it also totally depends on what they're doing at quarterback and what the plan is for the team. I think the front office is the more pressing issue, especially because to your point, you know, if you do rebuild, you need that front office. to make the right decisions.

As far as the players on their roster, I mean, regardless of what they do at quarterback, you know, and with Russell Wilson, I do think it would be worth looking at extensions for Brown and Diggs who I think, you know, there's some hesitation with Brown because I think he's like 36 or he's seven. Yeah, he's all, yeah.

We have seen left tackles continue to play at a really high level. And the point where I'm actually not sure it's like Andrew Whitworth aberration anymore. But he's still, he's still extremely good in my opinion. I think given those level of uncertainty they have in the secondary, you know, you would be really useful to keep quandary digs who's been a absolute home run for them around.

I think the bigger question for them will be Bobby Wagner, who is a $20 million cap hit. At the top of my head, I don't have it in front of me. It's right in that range. And with the Brooks draft pick, you know, when they drafted him, it was kind of like, okay, well, in the media, you know, is a bit of a KJ Wright replacement. Oh no. Is he a Bobby Wagner replacement? Like what's the goal with this player?

I think it gives you some optionality in terms of, you know, whether you ask Bobby to potentially restructure his contract, what that might look like. It sort of depends on what he wants, what he cares about. Obviously, one of the greatest players in the history of Seattle sports. I still think he's a good, you know, linebacker. And I think that's probably the most difficult decision that they'll have. Yeah, I understand it both ways because you can understand wanting to hit the hard reset button. But I feel like having a core of Dwayne Brown, Bobby Wagner, quandary digs, the receivers,

and using that as, I mean, because I do think that that stuff is, it matters. Like if you want to rebuild the defense and you want to rebuild the team, I think having somebody like Bobby Wagner at the center of that thing being like, this is what Seahawks football looks like when it's going well. And having him be that for a young roster, that stuff matters to me. I think that's worth chasing. So that's what we think should happen, right? Maybe we have a tweak in the front office.

We'll see what happens with the quarterback. What do you think will happen? I thought that the Cam Chancellor Jody Allen thing today was very funny. And now it's like, all right, what will she do? What will they do? Like, ultimately, we can have all of these speculative conversations about whether Russell Wilson gets traded, whether Pete Carroll gets fired, but what do you think will happen? I think more likely than not Russell Wilson gets traded. I did not think that last season.

I kept, you know, I found it largely because it made no sense for Seattle. I think we're now at a point where it actually does make sense for Seattle. I think it probably makes sense for him too, given what we've just discussed about his evolving style of play and, you know, the pieces around him. And also I think what's been a pretty clear philosophical difference between him and Pete Carroll for a while. I do think it's possible if Jody Allen, who is the great unknown in all of this, asked Paul Allen, by the way, were to actually pull the trigger and burn it down when it comes to the front office and the coaching staff. I think Wilson might be inclined to stay. We're kind of reading tea leaves at this point.

But I think just given the amount of money invested and given what Wilson's sort of, you know, what has been out there over the last couple of years, it just feels like he's probably gone to me. And then if that happens, I suspect both John and Pete's stay. Again, just because of the contracts and for at least another year, I think Pete Carroll probably redos his staff. So that would be Shane Waldron and Ken Norton Jr., which I think is the right decision for this team, regardless of who's playing quarterback, particularly on defense. And I think you look to, okay, well, you know, next year, do the draft picks look any better? Do, you know, what do they get at quarterback? Is there any improvement? and if there's not, then I probably think ownership makes a clean break after a year.

All of that makes perfect sense to me. I think if I had to put money on it right now, it would be that Russell Wilson is gone and that John Schneider and B. Carroll will stay. And then whatever happens after that, I think a retooling of the staff makes sense. It's really weird to face that reality, but it does feel like that's kind of the point that we've reached. And yeah, the contract sanctions they just got, I mean, that does feel like the most likely outcome. So if that happens, if the Russell Wilson era ends and kind of this era of Seahawks football

ends, you know, Bobby Wagner, his future, Katie Wright moved on last year. It does feel like even if Pete Carroll was still there, how we would classify this era of the franchise is over. So how, when you think about it, when you think about the last decade of Seahawks football, what do you think defines it? Like, what do you think is the most important notch in whatever their legacy is or is or will be? I think it's equal parts Wilson in his style of play and the defense. You know, you hear a lot more about the defense. Maybe I'm wrong.

I don't know what it depends, I guess. You're listening to. Listen, this is how you feel. This is all about how you process this. Okay, so obviously the Legion of Boom and that defense, it really goes beyond the Legion of of Boom, by the way. And we didn't even talk about when I talked about the heater that John Schneider was on the draft, also the April and Bennett signings are, you know, are you.

the most impactful for agent signings. I'll never forget where I was. I remember where I was when I saw the Michael Bennett thing. I had just finished playing pickup basketball at USC at the rec center where we would go after work at Grantland. And I was driving. I was like getting in my car and I saw it. I remember being exactly on the road where I was like getting into my car when I saw it.

I was like, holy shit. I cannot believe they just did this on top of the April thing. Like this is ridiculous because I loved Michael Bennett on that. at Buck's team. I thought he was so good that year. And for them to get him, it was crazy. He played for, by the way, after Seattle as well. One of the most underrated defensive players of our generation. But I just think that identity on defense, the physicality, that ultimately led to the NFL changing the rules, right? Just they were so fun to watch. And I mean, that's secondary. Just I don't know if we'll see anything like it ever again.

that it was just like a perfect confluence of players, attitude, the head coach, everything. And, you know, obviously that style of defense no longer exists outside of Las Vegas. So that includes Seattle,

by the way. They don't, you know, they don't play as much to cover three there anymore either. So, yeah, it's, that will define the team.

And then I really think, however things end with Russell Wilson, the fact that a dude, his size came into the league and in 2012, which of course was, you know, the pivotal time in NFL football in terms of embracing a more collegiate style of play option football, right, which is, you know, existed in the NFL long before Russell Wilson, but I think that year, you know, you had a bunch of quarterbacks who came in between him, Kaepernick, R2, and then for him to be as successful as he was, was revolutionary in a way. That coupled with his size.

by the way, you know, truly. So it's to me, like, you know, he is one of the most not just important figures in Seattle sports history. He is, but I think in the game of football. And I don't know, I hope people recognize that because, you know, even if he does, I think he can still be a good quarterback. I do, even though it hasn't been a case there last year and a half in the right situation. But what we saw from basically 2012 through, I don't know, around,

2019 or so 18 was pretty remarkable and I'm just glad I got to watch. I remember in the summer of 2012 after he was drafted and after they had signed Matt Flynn, I was in Portland at the opening, the Nike high school camp. And Russell Wilson was one of the counselors there, somebody that was there. And it was before the day started, it was kind of early in the morning. I remember walking there with my coffee and seeing Russell Wilson working out on the field, just going through like a full scale workout. out. I was kind of like, okay, man, like he's a third round pick. Like they had just signed

Matt Flynn. I was kind of like, good for you, man. Like, I'm sure you're going to play a ton this year. And then he wins that job. And then what you just said kind of takes hold. You know, that 2012 season and what it looked like with him and Robert Griffin and Kaepernick and just the kind of moment in time that it was and seeing somebody with his size and with his physical profile succeed. And obviously, they've changed so much over the years, right? Like what Russell Wilson was asked to be with. that offense has shifted multiple different times. They were run heavy, one of the run heaviest teams in the league with Marshaun

Lynch in that line early on, and then they kind of opened things up a little bit later in his career. But just what he was even early on, I think, is exactly, what you're saying is exactly right. To me, it will be the defense, though. I just, not only the defensive success, but the fact that they kind of ushered in an entire era of NFL defense, Gus Bradley gets a head coaching job, Dan Quinn gets a head coaching job.

Robert Sala was on Gus Bradley's staff. in Jacksonville and then gets hired in San Francisco, it takes hold so deeply in the league as a schematic trend that the offensive movements that come out of it become important. Like the types of offenses within that Shanahan tree that attacked that Seattle high system then become the most important effective offenses because of how dominant the defense was.

So you think about the lineage of it and just how important it was in defining football over the last 10 years. And it's interesting, you know, a lot of the coaches from that tree have evolved. Dan Quinn, man, what he's doing right now in Dallas. Sala, when he went to San Francisco at first, they ran the Seattle cover three and then they evolved. And I think that's something that also has been a little bit lacking in Seattle. Again, I do think it mostly starts with personnel.

I really can't stress that enough. But, you know, the NFL is all about cycles. you're right. Like that Seattle defense defined both a cycle of defense and a cycle of offense. And then it triggered the next cycle. And I think the Seahawks kind of got left behind. I do want to say one more thing up to Carol, though, that you reminded me of with the Matt Flynn thing. By the Matt Flynn today on Twitter, I don't know if you saw this. I did. It was great. It was great. Everyone you took all that money from Seattle. Yeah. And it was awesome.

Which is just legendary Vanessa King, Matt Flynn. But one other thing I will always really, really admire about Pete Carroll is he really practiced everything he preached. And it was not always easy. You know, like we can make fun of in the same way that people can make fun of Wilson for some of the like, you know, doing the walkthroughs and stuff. That is how that dude has always been. He's not winning now. So like people are not as tolerant. He came in that guy, like you said, and that's a huge part of the reason why a 5-10 dude was successful.

Pete Carroll came in with Mr. Win Forever Always Compete. And it sounds like corny coach speak, right? Then they paid a dude $10 million and let the 5-10 dude come in and win the job. And I just love that. I don't know. As a fan, I thought that was really cool at the time. That is something a lot of coaches. most, the vast majority of NFL coaches would still not do.

And it's something that I think I'll always admire about what he brought to the game. And I think it changes the franchise, right? By him winning that job, I think it just changes the tone of what that season is and then moving forward. One more thing I want to mention before I ask you some emotional questions. We cannot overstate how cool they were. Like, I just think that people who did not watch that team in the moment, like if you're a little bit younger and you did not, get to watch what that Lesion of Boone team looked like, you cannot, I cannot emphasize enough how cool Camp Chancellor was and just what he was in the middle of that defense and the way that

him and Earl Thomas fit together like two puzzle pieces stylistically. It's just, it is so perfect in like this cosmic way. And then what Bobby Wagner was and when you combined it with that defensive line and like KJ. Wright being this totally singular physical feature, like the go-go gadget arms and what that was. for them, like the way it all fit together and how cool it looked in practice, it's one of the most aesthetically pleasing, just rousing NFL defenses that has ever existed. And I think that has to be mentioned. Yeah, 100%. I don't think there'll be anything ever cooler than Camp Chancellor wearing the dark visor coming over the middle of the field. I was at the game where he hit

Vernon Davis, you know, the hit. Yeah. It was honestly, Robert, it was so loud. Like you could hear it in the stadium and every single person went, oh, like, oh, my God, what? I just remember so vividly. My brother walked out of the stadium and bought a camp chancellor jersey that day, which he still knows. But yeah, it was like an all-star team, like just the number of Hall of Famers, future hallof-famers, stylistically unique and cool players. I mean, they posed on the cover of Sports Illustrated in leather jackets and Byron Maxwell,

God bless him was there. No, he was good player, too. He wasn't with those baggy sleeves. Speaking of Phinex-Kings, I mean, Byr-R-Mexual, it got paid out of all this. Oh, fully. Yes, yes. Yeah, no tears being shipped for the legacy of Iron Maxwell. No, it was, they were just so cool and fun to watch. And, yeah, I don't know if I'll ever, like, have another CX team.

I enjoy watching as much as that one, for sure. So when we think about this, right, they were the DVO-A champs four years in a row. Like, they were the best team of football. I made the original Microsoft Paint, DVOA champ. This is pre before I worked at ESPN clearly. And I did the, I think it was inspired by the Colts doing their ASC champ.

No. Maybe. Yeah. It would have been later than that. It would have been earlier than that. It would have been earlier. I think the Colts did that in like 2015. Okay.

So I did it as a joke before they did it in real life. But yeah, because I used a picture of like the Seahawks ring of honor banners and I replaced them all with the back to back to back to back TVOA champ. Back when you were just a weird person on football Twitter. Very cool. Very normal stuff.

over here. But yeah, that, yes, who could forget. So when you look back on that and just how dominant they were for such a long time and how the fact that they were so close so many times, is there any part of you that looks back on what this was with disappointment, thinking it could have been more? I think probably, you know, obviously they almost did win another Super Bowl. Yeah, the backup ball would think aside almost. Yeah. I think there was there is regret about the underperformance of the offense during some of Russell Wilson's peak years because I think some of those were due some of those years um you could pin it on coaching frankly I think that's

less the case now we spent a lot of time talking about that but um otherwise no like like we discuss like it's so hard to be successful in I mean fucking Aaron Rogers has one Super Bowl ring right now okay I agree it's it's really hard to be successful in the NFL for a long time it's really really difficult. And, you know, I think you have to kind of recognize that when you're looking at teams and analyzing their records of success. I think so, too. And I think the only thing that you look back on it, and it's a jewel you wish you had in the crown a little bit, is that Russell Wilson's season where he just kind of took over the NFL. There were stretches. There were so many stretches. Was the 2015 season where he had that incredible second half where they really opened things up for him? They were putting up like 40, 50 point games. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you kind of got to see him play point guard. I mean, that was when the first kind of real stylistic shift in the offense happened. And him emerging in that version of who he was was so cool. And then you got the first half of last season. Like the fact that he never won an MVP award or he hasn't so far. And he never had that kind of wire to wire year where he owned the league. I think that's really the only thing missing from what this was because he had those

stretches of absolute brilliance and of being like any unlike any other quarterback who's ever played. But it never happened from like one week one through week 17 where he was undisputed the best player in the league that year. And he kind of owned it. That's really the only thing to me that never happened. I think that's fair. You know, but I also think like he's going to be a Hall of Famer. He does have a suit little ring. Like we're looking at the specter of of great NFL quarterbacks who never fully lived up to their potential.

He's probably still despite his, you're right. some of those incredible years still, it's not as sad as some of the other cases out there. Do you think he's probably the best quarterback in the post-Golden Age group of quarterbacks? Like in the post-Aren Rogers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning era. Has Russell Wilson been the best quarterback? Gosh.

Yeah. And well, so we're doing pre post-Golden Age pre-Mohombs. Yeah. So 2007. So basically from 2012 through 2017 is that kind of five years. period. Yeah. And I think, I think even like 2010 because that's where Rogers kind of came to be.

That's right. It was in that 2010 season. So for like 2010 through 2017, guys that were drafted in that stretch. Because it's also kind of a dead time for quarterback draft picks, right? I mean, it was a really rough stretch during that time outside of Wilson and Andrew Luck really. So it kind of feels like of that group and of that era, Russell Wilson was the best quarterback. Yeah. I'm talking about him like he's gone.

I know. This whole thing, by the way, we, we, we do. do sound like we're doing a eulogy. I'm like, let's remember Pete Carroll for the good times. Win forever. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think like when you look, especially look at the, you're right, the quarterback's drafted over that period. You know, suddenly you're like, hey, Derek Carr actually pretty freaking good. Pretty great draft pick, right? But yeah, it was, it was him and luck. And that was kind of, it was always going to be them. And this was also another obsession of weird Seahawks Twitter back of the day. It was, uh, oh, I remember,

the accomplishments of Andrew Luck every turn. But, God, I hope I've deleted everything I ever wrote. But, no, Andrew Luck was a great quarterback. I did not partake. But I think that's probably, he is definitely the bridge guy to this latest generation. And it is remarkable. By the way, I think when we talk about Wilson's legacy or I guess the evolution of the NFL, a lot. Some of that had to do, I think, with the, you know, yes, some teams embrace these breed option

quarterbacks and were creative, but you didn't really see an evolution in NFL offense. And I think what quarterbacking looked like for a few years as well, you know, they were still, NFL teams were still drafting some pretty bad traditional tall pocket passers and focusing on traits, I think, that were less important than some of the things that wasn't brought to the table. So I think that's as much of an indictment on the league at the time as it is on perhaps the talent available over the course of five or six years. And we still got the Ryan Mallet and the Brock Oswowers and the post-Wilson era, unfortunately. You can say the names.

Is there anything else that you want to mention here as we're eulogizing the Seahawks? Or do you feel like that's efficient? Just would you take care? Um, Wilson for Fields and, for... I, it's so funny because people were talking about that this week. And I'm sure this is part of this is because I am to now emotionally tied to Justin Fields. I would rather, the timeline where Justin Fields succeeds is so much more satisfying to me than the Bears getting the last little drips of what Russell Wilson is for the next two or three years. Like that's, I don't know.

That's just how I feel. Like I would rather see this Justin Fields thing through. But that's how we all feel as fans, which is eternally optimistic about the thing we haven't seen, right? Yeah. Or the glimpses. And this is why we love rookie quarterbacks so much, not just because they're on team-friendly deals,

but because there's the hope that they can get better. And I think that's probably what you're running into with Wilson at this point. Although I do maintain, I think he can be a better version of himself than the guy we've seen this year. that's why I think it's kind of insane for me to say that. Like if the Bears were to trade Justin Fields and Russell Wilson straight up right now, they should probably do that. But part of me is just like, I would love to see a guy they drafted succeed.

And just the guy that you've been with since the beginning, literally watching him as a rookie and watching how hard it was, if they get the right coach in there, if they get his version of Brian Daibald to kind of shepherd him through what Josh Allen's rookie year looked like, it hasn't been that long. I know most guys come in and are successful right away. turning into a Justin Fields podcast. But I know most guys come in are successful right away now,

or at least pretty successful right away. But we're not that far removed from what Josh Allen looks like as a rookie. And it just feels like when you have somebody that has the bundle of traits that Justin Fields has, it's something that I want to see. I want to see where it takes him and where it goes from here with the right staff. And that's why I feel like I would hang on to him, even if the Seattle would dangle or Russell Wilson in front of me. Wow. All right.

I know it's not smart. I know it's not smart. I know it's not smart. I know it is not the practical decision that I should be making, but it's the emotional one that I'm going to make. And thank you. Well, as I said, we are coming across right after Russ wasn't losing to Nick Falls.

So there's also that. Well, that's the emotional decision I've made. Thank you for being willing to dig into your emotions here a little bit on a subject that I know is pretty near and dear to your heart. Mina Khimes, where can people listen to you, read you,

see you? It's a lot of places at this point. Yeah. Well, so the Minaim show featuring Lenny, is my podcast. You've been a guest this week. Dominic Foxworth is the guest or watch NFL lives.

Please go check out everything that Mina has to offer. You guys probably already do. If you don't, that'd be very silly. And it feels like the listeners to this podcast are probably watching that show already. So if you're not, make sure that you are. Guys,

thank you very, very much for listening. Appreciate you taking the time. We'll be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones and our Saints writer, Cat Terrell, talking about the strange future of the Saints and what that might look like. Until then, I appreciate you guys listening.

Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. Please rate and review the podcast wherever you might listen. We'll talk to you tomorrow. This was The Athletic Football Show.