The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Rookie QB check-in with John Beck + discussing the Urban Meyer situation with Mitchell Schwartz

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

Robert Mays welcomes QB coach John Beck to break down what we’ve seen from the rookie QB class so far this year. Beck discusses the biggest challenges for these players in their first season as well as his work with Zach Wilson, Justin Fields and Trey Lance. Later in the show, Mitchell Schwartz talks about the Urban Meyer situation, how a QB can help his offensive line pre-snap and much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The presenting sponsor for today's episode of the Athletic Football Show is Visa, a network working for everyone. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Mitchell Schwartz is back for his weekly segment. Very excited to have Mitch back on the show. Before we do that, though, I really wanted to do a check-in at the quartermark of the season about the rookie quarterbacks.

I just think this was a good time. We've seen them all in some. capacity all of the first round picks. Some have started full games. Some have gotten spot duty. But I felt like this was a good time to check in and just gauge where we were. And I really wanted to chat with John Beck about this. John helped train several of these guys coming into the draft, including Zach Wilson,

Justin Fields, Trey Lance. His perspective was invaluable. He had so many good insights. One of the better conversations about quarterback development and the process of that that I can remember having. so I truly hope that you guys enjoy the conversation. Let's get to our chat with John. All right, I am thrilled now to welcome quarterback coach, quarterback trainer, former NFL

quarterback, a lot of different titles we could throw around here. John Beck, John, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I sincerely appreciate it. Yeah, you're welcome. So you trained a lot of these guys, these first round picks before the draft, which is why I wanted to do this. We're a quarter of the way through the season. A lot of them have played a decent amount.

of them are on the verge of playing. I thought it was a good time to just do a rookie quarterback check-in. And you obviously have an interesting perspective coming from a couple different points. In fact that you work with some of these guys, but also you played as a rookie. And that's where I wanted to start because just the challenges and the differences between the college game and the NFL game and what that transition is like, I wanted you to walk me through what your experience was like as a rookie because you played later in the season. But I'm still sure you took a ton from that experience and how it could apply to other guys. So what would you say is the biggest challenge when you actually get on the field as a rookie

in the NFL? I would say it's the situation that you're dropped into, things that you have no control over. Being drafted as a rookie is really exciting, right? You've been working your whole life. You go through your college career. You're drafted because you had a successful college career. But then you don't get to pick the situation that you fall into. And, you know, my rookie year, I think we were 0 and 9 when I became the starter.

And it was a difficult position. It's already a jump from the collegiate game because the speed of the game from a quarterback standpoint, you know, back in those days, there was a big jump from what you did offensively in college to what you're being asked to do in the pros. There still is a jump. You know, you always hear those rookies talk about just how big the playbook is, the wording of the offensive plays, all those things. I think it's been minimized over the years.

shouldn't say minimize, but I think that colleges and pro teams, there's not as big of a gap in what they do offensively as what they used to do. I think it's preparing quarterbacks better to play younger in the NFL, but still, it's still that jump. And so I just think if I were to say the biggest thing, it's really the things that you don't control. It's, I would have never guessed that my first start would have come when my team's all in nine. You get drafted by a team. They kind of tell you their plan. And then all of a sudden the season starts, things change. change. Injuries start to happen. You know, for all these guys, some of them are playing still with the starters that start at the beginning of the season, the majority of them. You know,

when that middle of the season hits, a lot of times, if you're one of those injury-riddled teams, like, it's tough. It's tough to win in the NFL with your starters. It's even tougher when you start losing some of those guys. So I think for a rookie, it's the situation that you get dropped into. I think that's the biggest challenge because not all situations are equal. So I want to get back into that, but I have one thing I wanted to ask you about that conversion of the college and pro game because I find that so interesting. Where would you say the gap has shrunk the most? Is it verbiage?

Is it design? Where is it smaller than you think it's ever been? So it doesn't hold true for all teams, but some teams are shortening their language. They're trying to make it easier for the younger guys to play comfortably sooner. You have some coaches that have been in the league a long time that they stay with what they do and they still require the quarterbacks to be able to hold true in that. long language, right, to be able to have those really long play calls. But there are some coaches that they say, hey, if I want my guys to play their best, I've got to find a way to shorten

the language. And they do. But I also just think collegially, there's far more access to NFL tape. I know a lot of colleges that their quarterbacks spend a lot of time watching NFL tape, either because a coach came from the NFL ranks down into college or because they have access to the scheme, they're now trying to copy what those NFL teams are doing. So you see a lot of colleges around the country where I'll be training these guys for pre-draft and they'll start rattling off all this NFL tape that they've watched while in college to help them set up their system for their college. So I think all those things are really helping and also where quarterbacks are coming from. Nowadays, you have quarterbacks that are getting lots and lots of reps in the past game through high

school. They're well prepared for college. Because they're well prepared for college, they're able to build upon that. And then they take all of those experience and reps into the NFL game. Where would you say, can you think the best example of that that you'd be comfortable sharing? Like with a college team that you feel like, oh, you've clearly watched a lot of this. I mean, I'll just use BYU's Zach Wilson, for example, just because I've known him for so many years. All throughout his collegiate career, he was watching NFL tape. He was watching NFL quarterbacks. And then his offensive system, those coaches had access to a bunch of teams tape. and they would try to use that in their scheme.

So, you know, if you go in their database of film that they're watching, they're watching the Kansas City Chiefs, the San Francisco 49ers, the New Orleans Saints, like they're watching a lot of those things, and they're pulling some of those offensive schemes into what they're doing. And then here's Zach, right, he gets to watch, oh, that's the scheme that we're going to be running. Here's a bunch of clips of Drew Brees running it. Here's a bunch of clips of Patrick Mahomes running it. I remember back when I got my first chance to watch some NFL tape, it was a former NFL

coordinator Rod Dauper with the Eagles, I had done some work with him in Arizona. He gave me a VHS tape of an Eagles and a Patriot. And I took it back to my college apartment and I sat there watching it, like just trying to soak in everything that I could. But until I got to the NFL, that was the only NFL tape that I had seen while in college. So it's drastically different nowadays. It's amazing what technology has done to just the way that ideas are shared and stolen in the football world.

I was talking to Joe Barry, the Packers defensive coordinator during training camp. We were sitting down talking about stuff, and he's like, I wake up every Monday morning, and I can watch anything at the click of a mouse, anything. Anything in the football world is available to me. And I think that the cross-pollination that's happened as a result of that is kind of an underserved story about the way that ideas have traveled from college to the NFL, from the NFL to college, between NFL teams. It really is a flat world right now and how those ideas work around.

Absolutely. And I'll even go further and say how it's influenced also the high school game. Matt Ryan and I played collegiate ball at the same time, played against each other in college, and he trains with us in the offseason. And we talk about the impact that all of this information and technology has had on kids entering college football. Those kids nowadays that come from those systems in high school, I'll use like a modern day here in Santa Ana in Southern California, the number one team in the country. What they do offensively prepares them so well for college football. Like Bryce Young right now, starting quarterback to Alabama, he's a modern day kid. so well prepared for the collegiate game. Matt and I's conversations are about, remember when we

jumped into the college game, how much we had to learn, how much was so different from what we did in high school. So I think it trickles all the way back to these kids going from high school into college, then having that experience and then playing through college, now they're being prepared for the NFL game better than ever while in college. And I think that does have an impact. Is it still a challenge? Absolutely. Because the same thing is happening defensively. coverages that these guys see nowadays, the little nuances that are different from the game that was played 15 years ago, it does have an impact. There are some schemes that are really, really savvy schemes that quarterbacks have to still work just as hard if not harder to prepare

for. So I think it does go both ways. And that's why the NFL game still is a challenge when you put these young quarterbacks out on the field early. How do you feel about playing early? Like, where is your like philosophy about it? Do you think that there's value in sitting or do you think that at a certain point, it's really useful and crucial for guys to get out there as soon as possible. Because you played, you were about 11 games in, right? So you watched three quarters of a season. Do you think that there's stuff that you just needed to be on the field to learn? Absolutely. I, look, I believe that there are these fundamental things that all young quarterbacks, I call it like the going through process, right? Like, these teams have to understand

that these quarterbacks just have to go through these things. And to go through them, it's a lot about the team and what they're willing and are they, you know, devoted to that quarterback how they need to be. I think that he has to play through bumps in the road. Most quarterbacks that you talk to that have had successful careers, they can all go back in time to those beginning years to their career and tell you about all the lumps and the bumps that they had to take and play through. But because the team allowed them to play through them, they grew and developed. Like I think it's really important for a quarterback to be able to put things out there, play on game day, have a season, and then back in the off season and be able to learn and grow from that and then work within the same

system. I think that there's certain things that make it difficult for a quarterback. If you throw a young kid out there in a difficult situation where he's just getting pounded and it's just scar after scar after scar, he's going to have to overcome those scars just like any other injury, right? Somebody blows their knee. They have to recover. They have to go through a rehabilitation process. If you put a young quarterback out there in a bad situation, it doesn't matter how hard he tries, how much tape he watches, he hasn't experienced enough to succeed in that situation. So he's going to take his lumps. Well, now you have to go through what I called the similar, like a rehabilitation process. They have to play through all of those things. You've got to get him

back out there in the same system and let him play through that. One of the worst things that you can have happened is have a quarterback change systems constantly, especially after a tough year. I look at Alex Smith. The guy went through like four or five offenses in his first four or five years. and people are saying like, well, this number one draft pick isn't, it's not fulfilling what it should be. Well, was the situation set up for Alex to be able to play, learn, play, learn, grow within a system? No, it wasn't. Right. And then he went on to have these great things happen at the end of this career.

And a lot of it, I think, was because he got to play through and then learn from those things. So for these young guys, look, I do think some guys need to sit. I do think that there are some guys that they just need a little bit more time to adapt, a little bit more time to feel comfortable with the offense, right? Not everybody's fully prepared for the offense that they get drafted into. It may take some learning. I think especially if you have a great quarterback in front of you, I think it's awesome to watch that guy prepare, perform, watch how he handles the adversity, watch what he does

after a loss, watch what he does going into a playoff game, just watch all those things about how he is a pro. I think that can absolutely help. But if you have a good situation, I look at some quarterbacks that were in my era, the Joe Flackos, the Matt Ryan's, right? Like they had a solid defense. They had a run game. It set up the play action game.

That's great that you can insert them in and let them play. And yes, they'll still have to go through the ups and downs of playing young, but the situation isn't just going to kill them. Where do you think is the biggest gap between the board and the field? The thing that is a specific thing you just cannot learn until you actually see it in real time, no matter how much time you spend studying it? Gosh, you know, that's kind of tough because I think it's different. different for every quarterback. I think that there are some guys that they can transition well,

right? Whether it's because of the experience they had before entering the NFL, or whether it's because just as the way they learn, they need a little bit more time. I think that there are some guys that just innately with a certain number of reps can get it. Other guys need more reps. They need to experience more of it. And it doesn't mean that the first guy is going to be the better quarterback, it just means they have different learning styles. You know, I do think that there's something about the playing in games as opposed to practicing. DeAngelo Hall, who's a cornerback, a former teammate of mine, he made a great comment a couple weeks ago.

And he said, you know, when you're getting practice reps, when you're getting scout team reps, like, although those are good for you, that's not going to prepare you to be a starter in the league. If you want to be a better starting quarterback in the league, you've got to be the starting quarterback in the league. Like you got to put it out there. You got to play and you got to learn through game day experiences and then you go back and you spend the week getting better. Then you go right back out there to game day. So I do think that there's something about game day experiences, the more of them. You can't ask a quarterback to succeed on game day if he doesn't have a lot of game day experiences going into it. So we talked about situation and about how you can't control it.

When you're looking at the situation, let's say these five first round quarterbacks are in, who do you think from a coaching perspective has done the best job of helping their guy get comfortable early on from what you've seen? Oh, well, I can only say what I think I'm seeing. You know, there are a few teams, like there are a few teams that I do get to have some dialogue with because, you know, they drafted a guy that I trained or somebody I've known for a while or I've known the coaches for a long time. A lot of these coaches that drafted quarterbacks, I played for them or I have a relationship with them. So I get to know a little bit more. But, you know, when I dive into like what New England's doing, what Jacksonville's doing, like what Chicago is doing, like I don't totally know what's going on in those places to help their guys. I can only go based off of what I, it looks like I'm seeing.

You know, I do know the guys in San Francisco and the guys in New York. And I do know that they, they work relentlessly to help put those guys in the best situations possible. Those, like they gave, also you Zach, for example, they gave him so many reps. during the limited off season that they have, that they had. They knew this is going to be our guy. The more reps he gets, the more experience he has, the more time that he can spend with us. It's all going to work for the better when he does finally play on game day. And then to them, I know that they also respond a certain way.

They have a plan of how they respond for his games. Michael Flores, does a great job of handling Zach on the sideline. The way that the team speaks to Zach is a big deal about how they're trying to help him be comfortable. It's not only about offenses, right? It's not only about play calls. It's about the environment that they're in. I think for so many of these guys, they're aware. One of the reasons why quarterbacks, I believe, are successful is because they're aware.

They're aware of their surroundings. They're aware of the details. They're aware of the small things that it's going to take for them to succeed. Because of that awareness, they can put together great plans of action for themselves of how they can succeed. But also because of that awareness, they're fully aware of the situation that their team is in. They can feel it when, hey, this is not my starting guy. here. This is not the starting guys here. And then at times, they may be so aware of also the

culture of the team. What does this team need? What state are we in? And because they're so competitive, this is why sometimes you hear a coach tell a young quarterback, hey, we just don't need you to try to do too much. We don't need you to try to play too perfect. The very thing that helps those guys be great is also the very thing that in difficult situations can be the double-edged sword and it can cause them to try too hard, to try to make too many perfect plays. So I look at it as also which team is telling this kid, we're riding with you, dude. We're going to stick with you. We want you to play your game.

We trust that you're going to grow from the mistakes, and we're going to ride with you through those mistakes. There's a great thing that Mike Holmgren shared about Brett Farr, where basically he approached Brett and said, like, young in Brett's career, look, whether we sink or we swim, we're in it together, we're sticking with you. And to me, I think that speaks volumes for the relationship that has to happen within an organization for their first round quarterback. When you take a quarterback that is supposed to be your franchise guy, it can't be about the right now.

Like you got to get it done now or we're going to move on from you. It has to be about the investment over the long haul. So when I think the question when you say, what are these teams doing? It's not so much about the play calls. It's not so much about the offense they're trying to build for that guy. It's about the entire culture that they're creating within the building so that if he does go out there and play a crappy game and throw a few picks and take some bad sacks and suck it up, like that's going to happen. it's how does that dude feel when he walks in the building on Monday,

and how is that environment that the coaches are creating for him about him going back and focusing on the process, focusing on the development. This is part of the steps that it's going to take to get to where we believe you can get. I think that's the bigger thing. So let's talk about Zach. Obviously you've said you've known him for a long time. You worked with him before the draft.

I wanted to ask you just what you saw on Sunday against Tennessee compared to what he showed in the first three games. where do you think he made the biggest strides after week three compared to what he showed on Sunday? Well, you know, I think a big factor with a big place. It showed a lot of poise by him to be able to get out on the edge, kind of slow his feet down, recognize that he had space, not trying to go too fast through space and throw those deep falls down the field. The fumbled snap that he's able to make a play on was big.

You know, to me, I still see, right, like Zach knows that there's still some throws out there that he should hit and he wants to hit him. And those will come. I think that the biggest thing I've seen is in some of those comfort level, big plays down the field knowing when's the right time to take them when it's not, right? Coach Sala made a comment saying like, look, we just need him to be a little bit more boring, right? It wasn't, Zach will never, he will never have a boring style of play. He's got too many of these just great playmaking abilities, his slipperiness, his ability to get out of the pocket, out of things, throw on the run. like Zach Wilson will never be a boring quarterback.

But what he was saying was have it be at the right time. There may be an entire quarter that goes or we don't have an opportunity to take a shot. And you just take checkdown after checkdown. That's what made Drew Brie's great. What makes Tom Brady great? And then when the opportunity to strike is there you take it. So I think one of the things that I saw from this last week in Zach was those balls that were shots down the field, those were good shots down to field at the right time.

And when he took the things underneath, it was at the right time. And to me, that's an effect. of him maybe trying to make plays the first couple games and then here saying I'll take them when they're there and that's going to continue to happen and like I'm looking forward to as that continues to grow and we feel more comfortable with all of this like you're you're going to see him start to now manipulate knowing hey yeah the checkdown is there or the flat is there the outlet but I do fill space I do have time and I can start to manipulate with my eyes and then those balls that like yeah there was a few down in the fourth quarter over time that he knows he should

he'll hit those as well. And that's when then you're going to see the completion percentage climb. You're going to see the yards per attempt climb, all those other things. What would you say is the biggest gap between what, because you know this offense well, what would you say is the biggest gap between what he was asked to do at BYU and what he's asked to do in this system? I would say it's just the quantity, kind of the volume of plays and how within all of those plays, there's a lot of intricate details specifically to every single one. You know, BYU runs

a really cool offense. Right now they're doing a great job. They're top 10 team in the country. They're great in the run game, the play pass game. I love the offense that they're running for collegiate football. It's great. But a lot of times, you'll see it's conceptually a lot of the same concepts that they can kind of shift around the action that they use off of playpass or formationally how they get to certain things. So I think one of the biggest things for Zach is it's taking those concepts, it's taking those ideas and those reads and saying now we're going to expand. So in Zach's world of offense, what might have felt like this now feels like this.

And he's such a detailed person. You know, one of the things that if you talk to anybody at BYU, it's about what was Zach like when he was there. It's about how well he knew the offense, how much detail he knew in every single little aspect of the play. well, that's the way that his mind functions. That's how he wants to feel in every single play. Well, all of a sudden, when it expands from this to this,

now that space that he's trying to get to, that's going to take time, that's going to take experience. And that's why he's going to get there. But to me, I would say in our conversations, our time around each other, it's that expansion and volume of offense and then it's his desire to know the offense in great detail in all of those new ideas, concepts, and place.

This may seem a little bit granular, but I think it's kind of a wider. arranging conversation around the league. As more of these teams adopt this heavy play action, boots style of offense, a lot of defenses are responding just with guys screaming off the edge. Nickel pressures or edge guys that aren't even looking at the run anymore because they'd rather blow it up than play the backside of a run play. And he's had a lot of pressure sent after him.

I think he's getting blitzed on like 30% of his dropbacks, which is one of the highest rates in the league. So within that offense, how do you kind of get a feel for the ways you need to approach pressure, handle pressure, and just the way that teams are bringing that much heat at him, because that seems like it's part of the learning process for him early on. Well, in relation to how the keeper game and the play pass game can kind of like build off of each other, if they do, like, if they are trying to play certain schemes to kind of combat you getting out on the edge, this is where then your play pass with people sliding across the

formation to pick up that free end can kind of work to your benefit. Because just remember, anytime somebody brings pressure, they're going to play with less underneath zone defenders. Now there are those zone schemes where it's going to give you the illusion of zone pressure overloading a side and then they can drop out and still play with the same underneath zone defenders. The other thing nowadays is there's so much what you would call like match concepts or it's a zone concept with match principles. So by the end of the play, it ends up playing out almost looking like as the play develops some man schemes. Well, if they're trying to do certain things off the edge to kind of combat you getting out on the edge on the keeper game,

you can transition to play pass and run your play pass concepts within having less zone defenders underneath. So there is a way for you to still be successful. Obviously within those offenses, what I've seen over time and what I've played in was that when you're able to run the ball successfully, it really has an impact on the pressures that teams can bring because now you're able to set up the playpass game

because of a successful run game. When that offense has a hard time is when the running game isn't necessarily working. Now the play pass game doesn't work out quite the same. Your shots on maybe first and second down, they don't play out the same way. Well, now if your shots and first and second down aren't playing out or you're not being able to establish the run, you're setting yourself up on third and, you know, seven, eight plus now becomes difficult because now the defense can tee off. Now they can start to play those third downs and bring the pressures that they want to bring.

And for a young quarterback, so much of it is recognizing coverages behind those pressures, right? What type of scheme are they in? I think that's also why in the league you're seeing this kind of evolve into these pure progression type reads. it's not so much middle open, middle, closed reads anymore where you're asking these quarterbacks to identify pre and post snap, what am I getting and where do I want to go with the ball? A lot of it is is now pure progression. This is where our progression starts regardless of coverage, regardless of scheme. And then based off of that, you can cancel that out or stay on it based off of what you see and progress through. And I think that that helps, especially young

quarterbacks. It's still hard to win this league because disguises, pressures, and then also those match kind of schemes that defenses play because, you know, yeah, you may get a play call where something's built in for man, built in for zone. And as you try to identify, it plays out the same way. And that's, it's so funny that you say that because I talked to a lot of people coming into the season about teams playing more too high shells on early downs in order to help with disguises. And one of the answers that a lot of offensive coaches came to was we did more all-purpose place. We have stuff that's not just designed for one different look. And that pure progression type stuff seems to fall into that bucket where it doesn't matter what you see.

You need to play this out because what you see is probably lying to you before the ball is snapped. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, there's some really good stuff. There's some just, like, I see some of the schemes that some of these defensive coordinators are throwing in quarterbacks. And like, you know, that pre and post snap read when you're looking at your iPad watching tape is one thing.

When it's a pre and post snap reading, you're on the field and you're looking through your face mask, like it's another, right? And I think also you go talk to any vet. this is not just about young quarterbacks and league. This isn't about just rookies. This is about vets also. You go talk to them of some of the things that they like. When that play call comes in that they know is a pure progression read, like they like that. That allows them to play fast, especially when it's something that they have a lot of experience doing or when it's with certain personnel that they trust, right? Because there's these zone concepts where they match things up,

it's still about guys. It's still about guys winning against somebody else. And when you have your guys that you trust and you got confidence in, you as a quarterback can just cut the ball loose. You can let it go. Like I look at, like I know we've kind of talked a lot about Zach right now, but I look at some of the plays that have not worked for him. And some of it is just, it's that timing between him and another player, right? It's the depth of their route. It's him in the pocket trying to be in rhythm on time or being slightly out of rhythm, but maybe not having that experience with that player because in rhythm or out of rhythm, there is still a chemistry you have with guys. You know, we have a chance to work with Dak Prescott on the offseason.

Dak has built such a good chemistry in rhythm and sometimes not in rhythm with some of the guys on his team. Right. Well, Zach's a young guy. He doesn't have a handful of years there yet. It will come. But in some of the things that are being called mistakes, right, in his first four games, like I look at it and it's just, it's a, it's just a chemistry thing with him and his player being on the same page. And I've been around this as well.

My NFL career kind of started out with, it was, you know, a coaching staff that, drafted me. They're fired. New staff comes in, new offense. Then I go to another team. Okay, another offense. Then I get traded there and I'm on another offense. I've seen a lot of these installments of new offenses many times. When you're building an offense with players, it takes time for those guys to get a feel for the offense as well, where they know it innately. They're not having to think about it. They could just play within that system. That jet system and as well as the other rookie quarterbacks that are playing in systems that are new to them and those players are getting new offenses, they're all going to grow together.

in it. And as they continue to build, that's when all of a sudden things just happen second nature. It's not there yet, but it will be. It's funny because the things I've noticed where it just looks off with them is a lot of outbreaking timing routes, where it's about depths and rhythm. And he's a short hopped a couple. He's overthrown a couple. But it clearly, there's just a little bit of a disconnect between what's going on with the two sides of that, which is interesting that you mentioned that because I've noticed it too. Well, yeah. And some of it is also, right, because I watched all Zach's tape at BYU. You know, him function. from under center in those dropback passing games.

Like BYU, most of their under center stuff was off the play pass game, right? So he's got a great comfort going under center, running the keeper game and the play pass game from under center, but not a traditional drop back, right? But in some of the scheme that they're utilizing there, they're wanting him to be able to drop back from under center, which you should be able to do, right? But that's that like, it's not only just being comfortable, like, Zach would have to work on being comfortable with it in the collegiate game if he was still in college. he's in the pros.

So he's jumping up a level. The chaos that's happening around him is different than the college game. And now he's doing it from under center. All things like I'm saying, the more he does it, the more growth he's going to have in it, the more comfortable he's going to get. The one last thing I wanted to ask you about him, do you have a sense for how their communication and just how their coaching plan for him has changed after losing Greg Knapp? And just the way that he communicates with Mike and how that is shifted.

Because that's a really, that's a huge thing to happen to a young. quarterback coming into his first year to lose your quarterback coach on the eve of the season. Do you have any sense for how the communication lines have kind of shifted there because of that? Well, you know, having ties to Zach and you're in like the coaches there, obviously like, I don't know everything, but some things I do know. And, you know, that was a huge blow, not only from like a team standpoint for their young quarterback for the coaches, but also just from a personal standpoint because of course. such a well-loved guy by so many people.

So there's like a human blow that happens, right? And even from Zach's standpoint, like that's your first coach. That's the coach that you're connecting with. And then all of a sudden, boom, that guy is gone. And he is such a great dude, right? So, like, you know, obviously there are some conversations that I've been able to have with their coaches and Zach that, you know, I'm not going to share those. Of course.

But also, I'm not totally in the building. So I don't know what their response was. too, here's how we're going to handle this. What I do know is that, like, there's a comfort. Like, Zach is really happy to be there. He's really happy with the way they have things set up. I can't speak for them outside of that. But I do know, obviously, from a football and a life, they would love to have Greg still there.

And they've just tried to do the best they can with that blow happening so fast. I want to move on to somebody else that you work with before the draft. That's Justin Fields. before we dig into what happened on Sunday, which as a Bears fan, I'm excited to do. I know I see the helmet in the background. Yeah, right? There you go. Bears.

So I'm curious, when I watched him in college, the positives are so obvious, right? He has the physical profile. His accuracy down the field is uncanny. I mean, just his ability to place the ball to all areas. The field is really impressive. I'm wondering what you saw as kind of the weaknesses in his game as a prospect. Where did you think he needed to grow on his way to being an NFL quarterback because those were harder to pin down for me even when people were having conversations

about some of the trepidation that teams might be having about it. Okay, so here's what I'm going to say in terms of all, I'll kind of answer it by talking about all prospects, but this will answer the question you had about Justin. First off, you're completely right. The guy has so much talent and ability. He's an awesome prospect. I believe that some guys, as they come in for whatever their experience was through life up to that point, it may prepare them a little bit better for what they're going to be

asked to do. Other guys, they may not have certain experiences that may not have prepared them as well. And that's out of their control, right? There's nothing that they can do about it. They just have to then in that moment learning. I look at some of the things that Ohio State was really good at. You should always lean on the things that you're good at, right? As a coaching staff, it doesn't make any sense to be great at things, but search for other things because, oh, well, we just should. or it would be better for our quarterback if we did more of these things offensively. You're one of the top teams in the country. You're playing for a national championship.

You're playing well in the playoffs. Like, why go away from what's getting you there? So my only thing was for Justin, him kind of experiencing more of conceptually certain things offensively, right, in how they maybe would have shown him a concept and say, here's the variety of ways versus these coverages that teams can kind of approach this, right? That, like that would be it. It would just be experiencing more football concepts from different ways of thinking. That's it.

So it's not like. Give me an example. Certain concepts in their scheme were simplified so that Justin could just play fast and trust the athletes that they have. So, for example, a simple scheme, like a little whip corner swing concept, right? Like they had a certain way to look at it because this is how we. we want to do it based off of our personnel and where we believe we have a competitive advantage athletically. Well, that same concept can be read out in different ways. And maybe the teams that

don't feel like they have that advantage athletically have to read it out a different way, because we can't just assume these things. Well, it doesn't make sense for Ohio State to ask him to do that when that's not who they are, right? They can view it a certain way. So that's my only thing. Sometimes they're downfield shots. First off, they also have some great downfield schemes there. Like Ryan Day and that offensive staff, some of the stuff that they did downfield, like when you get to hear from Justin's perspective of why they did it, it was really smart. Those guys can do a great job of scheming things up. And I think that's why they're able to in times has such big plays in big games because the scheme is really solid. The quarterback knows what

he's doing and it works. But sometimes those downfield schemes, because they've had so much success scheming downfield. At times they asked the quarterback to trust it so much. So sometimes when some people were like, well, why is Justin holding onto the ball right here? Well, I sat in the room with Justin. I know why he was holding under the ball right there. It was nothing about him not seeing it. Clearly, it was nothing about him not understanding it. It was, that's what the coaches were asking him to do. So in another thing, in the NFL, you have some of those downfield schemes, but you have to sometimes get off them quickly. You have to not, you can't hang on them so much because it's not about just our guys going to eventually run by their guy. There's talent everywhere in the league.

It's now truly about scheme and understanding it. So to me, it's not a weakness. It's just experience. In time, the more that Justin does those things, he will absolutely get it. He's a really bright kid. You put him on the board, he gets it. So to me, it's just, it's one of those things of time. Like having somebody like Andy Dalton that I know understands the game well and is not somebody that I don't think Andy feels, trying to think of the best word for this. Like, I don't think Andy's pissed that they went and drafted a quarterback and they're playing that quarterback like I think Andy's been around the league long enough to know he's a competitive dude like he went to Chicago because he wants to be the starter and Andy can't be a starting

quarterback he's talented enough but I also think he's a good enough dude he's not going to withhold information from Justin and not allow Justin to help Justin's going to learn a lot from Andy and Andy's going to be cool with sharing that information and those things are going to help Justin grow so what did you see from just their game plan on Sunday that you thought accentuated what he does well because that was my biggest problem with the Browns game is that there was very little of that. I thought there was very little congruency between what Justin does well as a quarterback and what that game plan asked him to do. On Sunday, I felt it was kind of the opposite, where they really streamlined a lot of stuff and

allowed him to showcase some of those things he does well. What did you see from that on Sunday? What do you think they specifically did? It's like, all right, this is putting this guy in a position to succeed. Well, anytime you can protect your quarterback, things are going to go better. I'm having a tough time protecting your quarterback things go bad. That's just, that's the way to. So when I look at the Browns game, I mean, Justin was under so much to rest that game, right? And he is like an unbelievable athlete. And you look at some of the things that he was getting out of, but then there was somebody right there lighting him up again.

Like also to have that happen in his first NFL start, like that's a lot on a young quarterback, right, to just be under that kind of pressure. So I think first and foremost, one of the biggest differences was Justin was not under as much pressure. Justin, and I don't know if that had to do a scheme or if it just had to do with the matchup, right? The bears could block. Combination of both, I'm sure. Yeah. But here's the thing. You got to see some of the things because of the protection.

You got to see Justin play more of his game, right? He was able to take those shots down the field that were great throws. There was one amazing throw where it was like a high corner sale concept. He took the third level, the high guy, put it right on the sideline as the corner sunk underneath it. like great throw from a young player. Justin using his ability out on the edge, like you got to see him actually play like that game managing. Like I know I don't need to take it right here.

I know I can take this. I know I can like move somebody right here. I'm out on the edge. I'm eyes, eyes, boom. I take the thing like the guy right on the sideline. Like he got to play a football game as opposed to just trying to survive through a football game.

I've been in those situations where like for whatever reason, whether it's like the run game's not working, the scheme, right? Like, maybe you're not seeing things clearly. Like, that happens as a quarterback. Like, sometimes you're getting the crap kicked out of you, and you're trying to see things clearly downfield. And it's not till the next day when you watch tape,

you're like, whoa, that, man, I did not see that clearly. Like, when that's happening, you're just trying to survive through the moment. You're trying to get back to that place of rhythm, of seeing it clearly, of playing your game, of managing the game. You're trying to get back there. That's what the Browns were.

This last game, he got to play a game. he got to play out his reads and that's why you got to see some of those things work for justin and him show type of player he can be rhythm is such a good word because on so many of those throws he just hitting the back foot of his drop and letting that thing rip the one he hit to mooney from in the shadow of their own goalpost it's beautiful he looks off the safety just comes right back to it on time the other shot he hit down the right sideline of mooney again right in rhythm off his back foot and that's the cool thing to watch is that not only is the ball placement and excellent, which I always thought it would be based on what he was in college.

But just seeing him play on time and in rhythm and look so comfortable, that was to me the most encouraging thing. Yeah. Another word that I would put with rhythm is decisiveness. When a quarterback is decisive, they can play in rhythm. They can deliver confident balls. Like, you can even be out of rhythm, right? But when you're seeing it clearly and you're decisive, you can tell by the way a quarterback

throws the ball. Like I tell people sometimes, I say, look, I can almost sometimes cover up. what's going on around the quarterback on the screen. And if I can just see him, his feet and his body, I can tell you whether that throw was made confidently and decisively or not, right? You can tell when all of a sudden somebody's open right now, the way that it's supposed to happen, the way that quarterback throws the football.

You can tell if depth, timing, positioning, matchup is slightly making that quarterback just a little bit, either question it, be indecisive, hesitate. If they still deliver the football, you can tell when they're not totally, sure when they're throwing it or if there's pressure and they have to throw it a little early or if they know they're late and then they rush it like you can tell all of those things so that's why decisiveness like what i saw from justin were a lot of throws that were decisive throws he wasn't going there with like oh you know is this the right spot or i'm getting pressure oh no he was going there knowing

that's where he wanted to go with the football and that was what was so cool especially like the downfield uh big post in the beginning like that like it was a post high safety in like the middle the field that they manipulated the corner. They knew they had space and he was able to drive that ball there and drop it in an unbelievable throw. He made that throw because he knew he was getting what he wanted. He was decisive and he cut it loose. My favorite part about that throw is that when he let it go, it was almost like a golfer when they know that they hit it on the screws. He did that little trot to the left where he was trying to watch it. Yeah, it was awesome. Because he's done that twice. He did that on the shot to Robinson against the Bengals too that he ended up dropping.

The fact that you have a young quarterback that's that confident when he knows. he put it exactly where he wants to. It's very fun. Something I really like about Justin that I noticed initially when we first started working together, he's a dude that has played in big games, huge games in the collegiate stage and has thrived in those games, excel, been arguably the best player on the field. I think that's huge for a guy when you step in the NFL, right? Because he's been there.

He's been in those huge stage moments and he's delivered. And I think that's why, like, hey, if I'm going to drop a young quarterback in a game, I look at those quarterbacks that have been in those positions, and I say I think he's going to be able to confidently go out there because he's done it before. I wanted to ask you about one more guy that you work with for the draft, and that's Trey Lance. Obviously, he came in in and spot duty last week.

He's going to start this week. I wanted to go back a little bit to the beginning, though, because you've played for Kyle. You know what Kyle is like as an offensive coach. I'm just curious, what is different about playing quarterback for Kyle Shanahan, than it might be playing for pretty much any other offensive coach in the league. Well, I think Kyle has grown a lot as a coach since the time that I had him to where he's at now. We've been able to keep a relationship through that entire time.

And I've seen him evolve through his time with Matt Ryan, different quarterbacks, Jimmy, all of these things. Like I think Kyle is such a sharp coach. I think some of the things that make Kyle stand out creativity, he's so creative with the way that he can get guys open. And then because of that, he demands that his quarterbacks play within a certain timing within those plays that he's developing.

If that makes sense, like Kyle has a really good feel for plays. And when he designs those plays up, he wants the quarterback to play within that timing. So he actually demands a ton from his quarterback, from their feet, from their understanding, and then their ability to drive ball certain places. He requires a lot in terms of, I want the feet to be this, and the ball has to get there like this.

Well, that takes a lot of work. Like, if you get into how much those quarterbacks with Rich Gangarello and all of them, how much they work on their feet tying those things together, like, you might feel like, whoa, that is very demanding. But it's because of Kyle and how he sees it all fitting together. And the cool part is, is if you can get there as a quarterback, and then the other things are working within their offense, the run game, the play passes will be there.

If the play passes are the keepers there. And then Kyle puts together these awesome concepts and quick game and different things. Like if it's all working together, it is one of the coolest offenses to watch work. But it does require a lot from the quarterbacks. And I don't know if every quarterback would feel comfortable always having that demand on their shoulders. Demand is actually the word in my notes. So it's very funny. Really?

Because it is. Yes, because the demands he puts on quarterbacks. I talked to Sage Rosenfelds about this. this multiple times, just about how it's different playing for Kyle for those exact reasons. Yeah. So with that in mind, what did you think Trey needed to do? What do you think the biggest steps he needed to take to tailor his game to being comfortable in that system? What did that have to look like in your mind? Well, there's two phases there, right? There's the like the mechanics of it, the way you're playing within it. And then there's the like understanding of it. One can come

through just work. You can just work on your feet over and over and over and over. But then there has to be the understanding for you to be able to play comfortable in that system. And I know what that feels like. I know that you can put a ton of effort into understanding the plays because I've like I've been there. I tried to do it during a lockout year.

I'm going to spend all the time I possibly can to understand those plays. But then you have to play in those plays and you have to play in those plays seeing a bunch of different looks. and then what you've got to do is you've got to tie them in all those mechanical things that you're working on with the playing in it. And then that's where that whole comfort of just tying within the system. Like I think if you go talk to any of the quarterbacks that have played for Kyle, they'll tell you about the difference in going from year one to year two, your two to year three if you're lucky to be with them for two years. And like, I can speak from your experience as well of when I went from Kyle to Gary Kubiak, a very similar system. you feel this like, wow, this is the difference that you start to feel.

It would have been great to have had this feeling, this experience come together when with Kyle. So I look at trade. Like there's things that we work on with his feet, with his body, all those stuff. And you can work on it not within running the system. You can do it in drills. You can do it in, you know, routes on air, all that type stuff. But then it's actually going and playing in it where you take what your eyes are seeing, what your mind is processing.

and the demands that Kyle puts on of where he wants you specifically in the drop at certain points within it. To me, it's just then playing in it, just a lot of playing football in it. I think you're going to see, you know, a lot of growth over the next 18 months to two years from Trey Lance because time in that system. That's really funny to say that because Matt Ryan won his MVP in year two. Matt Schaubb, year two was the area through for like 4,700 yards. And it's really funny because I've heard the same thing from guys that have played in that off. So with that in mind, when you're thinking about, okay, now you have to play in it. What are the mechanics of playing it and getting used to it?

What are you looking for with Trey early on? What do you want to see from him to notice and kind of gauge that he's getting comfortable in what they're asking him to do? It's going to be the way I'll see it is going to be like what I told you about covering the covering up what's happening around the quarterback and just watching the quarterback. You'll be able to tell, is Trey? Feeling comfortable? Is he feeling decisive? Is he cutting things loose when he's supposed to? Or do you see that? Like I'm going, no, I'm not. Yes, I am. Like you see those things. You know, now, that being said, I think going to tray, they're going to know, right? Like, you have to be smart with the demands. This is where I think Kyle has grown a lot as a coach in recognizing when the demand is appropriate, like at an appropriate level and when it needs to be an understanding level. because he's such a competitive dude, he's naturally wired to be here at all times.

And I think that that's why all the quarterbacks that have been with them, it's not just about understanding his system. It's about understanding him, right? Because that's a relationship. Clay caller and quarterback, it's a relationship. And so the longer that they're in the relationship, the better they understand each other and the work that goes into that. So I think there's also where Kyle has grown a lot is in that understanding of the appropriate

level of the man, given the players' experience level in what I'm doing and where they are in their quarterback development, right? Like, this will be Trey's first start, right? This will be his beginning. So it's coming at that appropriate level and also some understanding. Like, the other thing that Trey brings to the table, Trey is a tremendous athlete. He has an ability just to make plays unscripted. They're going to need that in those games. You don't want to shut that off. I also know, because I played in that system, at times, that demand is here and you feel like you need to meet that demand, at times it feels like if you can play perfect within the system and the way that it's designed, that will give you the best

chance to have success. But you can't do that at the expense of turning off just your natural playmaking ability if the crap hits the fan, if the protection isn't great. If something happens in the concept that is not what you anticipated, you still just got to go and be a football player. and I know what it feels like to sometimes think that playing perfect is going to be the answer. Trey this week, it's not going to be about him playing perfect. It's going to be about them helping him also play comfortable so that in the moments where either he doesn't see it clearly, the protection is not what it needs to be. Maybe he, you know, double clutches and then he's got to make a play on the edge.

He still has this great playmaking ability because of how athletic, how talented, and how smarty is. there's going to be some plays made where it's just about him making a football play because he's a football player. How do you see their personalities meshing as somebody who has known Kyle watched him grow and has worked with Trey? How do you see that marriage playing out? Well, Trey's such a good kid, such a humble kid and he's a really smart. He always wanted to soak up information. He's going to love what Kyle can teach him. you know, Kyle is just like this huge encyclopedia of offensive football because of all of his experience.

Like you can sit in a film room with him and he will just rattle off all this stuff that I know Trey's going to be soaking it all in. And I think going back to where I feel like Kyle's grown as a coach is that he also understands how important it is to have that great relationship. Right. And it is two ways. It's not just about coach here. It's the man that the player is. here. It's a two-way thing where you have to work with the player, the player has to work with you. So I think for Trey, you know, he's going to be easy to work with. Tray does not have like a strong, edgy, like hard to deal with personality. Such an easygoing good kid. He'll get along with anybody. But I do think it can be a good thing that he is teamed up with Kyle because Kyle is going to be able to take all the experience he's had with all these other quarterbacks and kind

of push that towards Trey. And he's got Jimmy. Look, Jimmy's a good dude. Jimmy's a good football player. Jimmy's been in Kyle's system, knows Kyle's system. It's a great person to have there as well, watching Jimmy. I'm sure Jimmy will still be around the meeting room, the practice fields. That's great when you're a young player to get to have that person that you can sometimes bounce things off of. Man, this is what I was thinking or seeing. Is that the right way? Let's go rapid fire with the last two guys here.

Guys, you did not work with before the draft, but have watched at least a little bit of early impressions of Trevor Lawrence. What has jumped out to you? You know, I think just potential, like you, see him make those throws that show why he was picked the way he was picked who he was in college like it's there like you can see it um you know he's in a tough spot um Jacksonville is in a tough spot as a team he's in a tough spot as a player he's going to have to endure lumps and growing pains that maybe some of these other guys aren't going to have to experience um but you just see those flashes of like the same thing you would see in college when you'd watch tape and you'd be like

wow that was just impressive like it shows up still there And also it just feels like that aggression kind of innate into the style that he plays. His eyes are always downfield. He's always looking to make a play. That's probably going to be his downfall at times early as a young player. But at the same time, kind of what you said with Trey, you don't want to coach that out of somebody because in the end, that's going to be a benefit to him in the long term. Yeah, I can remember it being in the league watching Matt Stafford's rookie year on tape. And you know what?

Sometimes he, like he made throws that you'd go, whoa, that was risky right there. Like he was really trying to push it. But that, just like you said, like Matt learned from those and Matt is an amazing quarterback, right? And it's that like you don't want to turn that off. You just want to sharpen it.

You want to refine it a little bit. It can't be turned off. And like, that's why I also like, Zach Wilson, he has some of those same things, right? Like, yes, I know in the New England game, there were some throws that people like head scratch,

wait, what? But like it's okay, right? Like those quarterbacks, they're going through a refiners process. You don't want to turn that thing off because then if you do with it also gets turned off their playmaking ability, who they are. They're competitive edge, their confidence. Like you can't turn that off. You just have to refine it.

Mack Jones very quickly. Same question. What has jumped out to you about watching him early on? You know, I've been watching a little bit of Mac here and there. And like, I don't know if this is like a great comparison. Harrison, but like sometimes in my eyes, I feel like I'm watching him do some things just like how Kurt Warner would play. Like, you know, like, that's like my comp for him right now. Interesting. I know. And I wondered why. Like, this is going to sound funny, but I actually paused as

I was watching and I was like, why did that pop in my head? Why did Kurt Warner pop in my head? What was it? But like, you look at how Kurt succeeded, right? He was just so smart, right? He just, he put the ball. He gave this guy's chances. He was able to like fill pressure. And he was, just like get the ball out to an outlet almost like six cents. So that tells me great understanding of offense, great awareness of people in space, also in timing. Like Mac had to play the other night that he threw well in advance. Like the timing, he was early, but he had to be early, but he layered the ball out to the outside. Now, went off the guy's hands. But like when I watch that, I see he's ahead of the play. He inatantly knows he's ahead of the play. He's able to pull some of the tempo off of the

ball, some of the pace off the ball, so that it still gets there essentially on time. Like, to me, that was the way that Kirk played the game. And I just, I've been impressed with how he manages the different layers of the field. I think he understands it really well. It fits Josh's system because you saw Tom do that so well for so many years. And so I see just a guy that I'm like, I see why it fits. Like, I can see why the Patriots like them. I can see why it can be a great fit for them.

He's still a rookie. He's still going to have to go through those rookie learning things. But like there's a lot to like when I watch his game. And for whatever reason, I just, I see some flashes of Kurt Warner in his game. I got to go back and watch some Kurt Warner then. I got to go on up my old Kurt Warner tape just to see what you're seeing. John, I sincerely, there's certain place. Sorry to cut you off right there.

There's just certain places where you know conceptually he's here. But then he feels this space around him. and he just flips and the ball's out right and it's and it's completed and like some quarterbacks would either get off this concept too soon or they would never be able to get off of it and get the ball over there you would see them as they move they start taking the hit so i just think it's this just like six sense awareness of space timing and i just i watched kurt like kurt did not have a cannon right but kurt threw on time so well he layered balls into space so well He was able to just feel that the outlet is there now. And he didn't need to go here, here, there. It was just a feel, boom, balls out. And I just, I see some of those things when I watch Mac play. And it's impressive.

It's also impressive. He gets the ball out very quick. He had a great in-cut. You watch him work left to right through his progression. And he threw that deep in-cut to the right. And you watch from the time that he got set to the ball out. I've also been impressed with timing of him getting the ball out of his hands, timing to release, it's impressive as well.

Awesome. John, sincerely appreciate the time. Sincerely appreciate the insight. This was awesome. Hopefully we can have you back on down the road. Thank you very much for doing this. Yeah, you're welcome. I am very excited to welcome now after a brief one week hiatus.

Back to the show. Mitchell Schwartz, Mitch, how are you doing, buddy? I'm doing good. Exciting to be back on. So you, very quickly, I want to get into this. You went to your first NFL game as a fan this. this weekend. You went to see the Chiefs play the Eagles.

How weird was it? How weird was it to sit in the stands and watch your team play? It was weird. It was honestly kind of cool because I've never really seen the game from that angle. You know, I've never seen it from kind of that top-down view. I was lucky enough to be sitting in a box, so I didn't have to deal with the Philly fans. And I had a little bit more space because I was worried if we weren't able to pull that off.

You know, luckily, you know, I'm into watches. So my watch friends in Philly, from the watchbox, Godberg. They were able to get us so sweet for it. So comfortable. It was cool to watch it from that high. You know, seeing the space, like, develop. I've never seen that before.

I'm sure we'll actually get to the football. But like that Tyreek play where everyone's screenshoting, oh, he almost scored a touchdown on this. Like, he caught it. And I said to the room, like, touchdown. And it's like so cool to get to see that in real time and, like, know that's going to happen. So I really enjoyed it.

And just a way I've never experienced it. The flip side is, like, you don't get. to see the speed of the game because like you're so far away from it like as you know if you're down there if you're on the field it's a whole different ballgame from like anything you're used to both on tv and even like in person from the box 100% I love the vantage point from the press box in some places the ability to see it from that bird's eye view that's why there's so much benefit to watching the game live because when you're watching the game on tv you can't see the way that things develop like you can't see with the coverages you can't see where guys are playing

I mean, even the benefit of being able to watch it from the press box during a playoff game or during the Super Bowl, you don't have to wait for the all 22 because you literally watched all 22 guys. So there is a benefit to being able to watch it from that advantage point. Yeah, for sure. And like seeing, you know, just how deep safeties are playing against the Chiefs these days. You know, I know Philly is a little bit more zone heavy and just like seeing guys go in motion and certain formations. And you're just like, they're really just going to sit there and like deep zone again and just kind of take it. And they did all game. But it was cool to see that because, you know, on the field, you know, for the most part,

you're kind of just looking at the guy in front of you, maybe, you know, some of the better alignment kind of look at the whole defensive front. You know, it doesn't happen to most of us that you're looking at the secondary. You're looking at, oh, who's the guy guarding Kelsey? And you have to find Kelsey in the formation and this guy's going in motion. There's so many things to look at that the quarterback can see. And so it's kind of nuts to, like, sit up that high and kind of look at it from the way they would look at it and, like, realize how much they have to process in the moment.

because that was another thing that, you know, I just didn't have the appreciation of, of, you know, having that bird's eye view. At this point, do you feel like Pat is kind of bored? Like, with some of the throws that he's trying, do you think that there is an element of I just want to see what I can get away with? Because it kind of feels like that a little bit. So I think he, he plays around in practice, obviously. I was going to ask you that. How does he develop these? Because I'm sure there is a process to it.

Yeah. It's just kind of messing around in practice and seeing what sticks and what doesn't. You know, that's a credit to coach because he gives him the latitude to, you know, kind of run these funky things. I will say there is a reason he's developed these style of passes. You know, I wouldn't be doing my part if I said what exactly it is. But he actually kind of has a reason for it and it does work. So it's kind of cool that, you know, a lot of other teams are now trying to do the shovel passes and, you know, kind of trying to copy the style.

You know, last year they got into the mode where, like, I think, like, seven out of ten weeks, we scored on a shovel pass. And it was like a different guy every time and just finding ways to do that. But I'd say he's not bored necessarily during the game. I think he can just do it at such a glacial pace compared to what most guys are doing. You know, the – well, you obviously know the Justin Fields quote that got thrown out of proportion in the preseason where he said the game, you know, felt slow to him. I mean, imagine how slow the game feels to Pat right now. I know. He just doesn't look like it's ever difficult, it's ever too much.

I mean, like I said, I do think this was a, you know, quote unquote, easier defense to face just in terms of what they're presenting and kind of the softness in the zone. And then, you know, the couple times they dared to step up and press them. The chiefs just went straight attack mode on them. So bored, no, but able to kind of run the curiosities and seeing things at a much slower and, you know, kind of freakish pace, I'd say definitely yes. Yeah, the boredom for me was more in practice. Or it was just like, how can I fuck around here and see what I can actually do with the football?

Which you don't have to divulge any more secrets. It's fine. I just think that that process is probably fascinating to watch. Let's get to what's in the news right now. The timing of this worked out well because I really wanted to ask you about it. And it's everything happening with Urban Meyer. There is so much to get to here. Whatever the incident was aside, you know, the morality of it and all of that, which has been legislated in

a bunch of different arenas here over the past 24 hours. I want to talk about the player response to it. That to me is the most interesting thing of what I want to discuss with you. The first thing you mentioned was something you tweeted about. And it's that he didn't take the team plane home from the Thursday night game. You found that shocking. Explain to me why it is so surprising that a head coach would not do that from a road game, no matter what day of the week it is.

Yeah, it's like an obligation to your. team to fly back with them. I mean, there's no way the dudes fly in, you know, commercial anymore. So just get a private jet, have it sitting at the airport for you. But there's, you know, I can't imagine for the guys who were on that first bus, you know, the head coach gets on and the players are kind of looking up and, oh, you know, Urban's not on there yet. When's coach coming? Because usually, you know, coach is the last guy that gets on the bus and then you can leave the stadium. You know, he's typically doing all the pressers and talking to media and all that stuff. and, you know, kind of waiting for that guy to get through all the media obligations and then,

okay, we're ready to go to the airport. So if I was on bus one and the head coach didn't show up, I would be kind of surprised and wondering what was going on. I start, you know, asking around, oh, is he okay? What happened to him? Then you get on the plane. I mean, some teams, the coach is set in first class. Some teams they sit in the back.

So there might have been a situation where, you know, maybe he was in first class and the players don't really go that way. And they didn't necessarily know, you know, he wasn't on the plane. and he tried to sneak one by him. But I just, I couldn't imagine a scenario where a coach doesn't fly back with the team unless it's, you know, like a health reason or a particular, like, life event that they, you know, couldn't get out of or something. I mean, I'm struggling to even think of what that scenario would be where they don't fly

back with the team and to basically just say, oh, yeah, I chose to stay there for some family. When realistically, you only would have lost, I mean, three or four hours to just fly back with the team, hop right on a private plane, fly back. I just, that's, you know, the morality stuff aside in terms of like him losing his team. I think he's going to lose his team because of that more than anything. Because it's, I mean, it's still cliche, you know, the captain goes down with the ship. Like, he basically just said, nah, screw you guys. I'd rather, you know, go hang out with family.

Like, you don't think any of those guys would like to stay there. Like, there's people in every city that would rather stay in that city, see their friends and family for the night and not fly back with the team. But no one would either even dare to ask that because that's just not a thing you do. so to see that from the head coach, that's just real bad. Do you think there are guys where as soon as they heard that, they're like, I'm done. Do you think it's that drastic? Yeah. I mean, to me, I would be that way.

Like, I just can't imagine, like, an act that shows your team, you don't care about them as much as not being on the plane with them, especially as he's like crying about this heartbreaking loss and everything. Well, it's not heartbreaking enough to be with them after. Yeah. Like, that's a moment. That's a moment to be with your guys. If you're the leader of that team, like, there is solidarity in, like, sharing that solemn plane ride home and that time. And, like, I haven't played football in 20 years. I played in high school.

I couldn't imagine a coach not coming back with the team after a game for that reason. Well, especially because most coaches, you know, it's not like they just sit in their seat the whole game. They're up. They're moving around. You know, most of them watch the film right away. They're, like, so crazy about it that they watch the film. So they come back and they walk through the plane, hey, how are you guys doing? That was a tough one.

you know, we're playing better. I like what we saw. You know, we got to keep pushing, you know, go up to your offensive line and talk to your tackles. Hey, you know, I thought you guys played pretty well. I watched the film. I looked really good. You know, a couple things to clean up and, you know, just checking in with all the guys. Like, he should be checking in with them on the bus, on the plane. You know, you should be doing those things anyway. So to not do that after what he considers, you know, to be one of the most heartbreaking losses of all football time, apparently. And just choosing to, like, go hang out with family. It's just, especially going into this long weekend, right? It's not like that was his only opportunity to do it.

Like, he could have had the coaches meet that night and meet Friday morning and then, like, you know, fly back Friday for a few hours. I mean, you're the head coach making like $12 million a year. He's made a ton of money. He's got the money to do whatever he wants in terms of how to get there, the hours he can spend. I'm just like losing words right now because I don't know what else to say. It really is that bad. And I feel like that's the single act that probably, you know, lost the team's track. And then you've got the owner coming out and saying, like, he's lost trust.

We've lost trust in him. He has to earn a back. I mean, that says all you need to know. How does the coach earn trust back? Well, even be, so that happens with the team play. Then the video comes out of him at the bar. And then he has to address it with the team. And based on what Mike Silver reported earlier today, he canceled the meeting yesterday on

Monday and then did it in the individual meeting rooms. As a player, if you were in that meeting, let's. say you're in the offensive line room you have heard of this video you have probably watched it what happened what happened with the team playing just happened you're oh and four when he walks into that room to apologize i guess about being a distraction what is your response in that moment you probably are so surprised the head coach is showing up in your room that you don't really know what to say or to do i'm guessing based on everything we've heard over the last few days it was something of hey guys i'm sorry I screwed up. I'm sorry I was a distraction. You know, it won't happen again. And then he just left.

Like, I'm guessing it's not like you stood up there and let them pepper him with questions or ask them about it. But again, I mean, you talk about to me not being on the plane once the players found that out. I can't imagine, you know, trust being broken more than that. And then to compound it with apparently canceling this team meeting and not being willing to, you know, kind of face the team and apologize to the group. I mean, that's, that's literally what he's there for is to be the leader to be in charge to, you know, set the culture, you know, all these things. And you can't even, you know, do a standard team meeting and address them after this. It's, it's odd, it's weird, you know, the head coach is coming to an offense line meeting

a handful of times or less in my career. So that had to have been, you know, an odd and awkward situation. His entire purpose there is to create a culture. That's what he is supposed to be doing. It's the entire selling. point as to why he is the head coach of this team and why they brought him in here to shepherd this era of the franchise, I cannot imagine that process going worse than the way that it's gone over the first month. What is establishing a culture if it's not trying to show some camaraderie

and togetherness and some continuity and just some whatever familial atmosphere in those moments after you lose a heartbreaking game and then what's the message to guys on long weekends all the time don't screw up like don't don't be the one that we have to talk to after this and for the head coach to be that guy where do they go from here like what could the possible solution to this be uh try to find a way to fire for cause i guess i don't i mean i honestly don't know like i said there's not too many situations where you can you know show that you love your players that you're there for them you know there's it's it's it's football like these things happen and you know they're kind of coaches do the normal stuff and and that's the situation i mean i'm pretty sure he also had

a quote that you know we're going to outwork all the other coaching staffs and we work harder than everybody else it's like could you imagine like a sean macbay after a devastating loss like that like not just going back and watching 15 straight hours of film and trying to find like every little thing that he screwed up he didn't call the right play oh i should have known this the safety was like a half yard deeper than normal. I should have known was cover three, not cover two. Like I just don't see these other coaches that are, you know, wired that way that are wired as workers.

So there's like that aspect that he said that they're the hardest working staff. He's the hardest working coach. And, you know, clearly he wasn't willing to watch the film right after the game and be around the team. And then there's the trust aspect, which I think it's just broken. I legitimately don't know how he earns that back. I mean, winning tends to be a cure-all. but I can't imagine like listening to him this upcoming Saturday night before a game

and just caring it all about what he's saying. God, what a disaster. I don't even know what else there is to say about it. I mean, it got to be feeling pretty good about those bears these days, huh? I mean, I'm feeling a little bit better than I was, all things considered. I mean, this does put it in perspective. I mean, if you could have imagined every possible timeline of how this went, this might be the worst one. I mean, I, even if you.

were pessimistic about this, this is still just a bridge too far. I mean, it's unbelievable. Yeah, you said, like, there's no worse way it could have started. Like, you wouldn't even have scripted this. Like, no one would have fathomed that the coach wouldn't fly back with the team and then would get caught doing, you know, inappropriate stuff with women while he's married. And, like, it's just, like, almost one of those things that, like, Hollywood couldn't have even imagined it because it's just, like, so incomprehensible, let alone the O and 4. and then after two games, they're putting out this, you know, written statement that we're going to do better for the city and the franchise.

And, like, that looks ridiculous two weeks later. Oh, my God. All right. Let's move on to some actual football stuff. I wanted to ask you this because it was on my mind when I was watching the Cowboys play the Panthers and just watching what Dak is doing pre-snap. He's operating at a really high level. And we can see just how he's putting himself in those receivers in really good positions

all the time. I wanted to ask you how much a quarter of a quarter of a lot of. can help his line pre-snap. What that actually looks like and what tangible benefits there are when you're playing with a quarterback who clearly is just seeing the chessboard because you've seen a lot of different, you've seen it at every end here. You've seen every version of it with all the quarterbacks you played with. So when you're playing with a guy who's operating like that, how do you feel it as an

offensive lineman? Well, I'm glad you didn't ask me to list which quarterbacks go to which end of the spectrum because I wouldn't be willing to do that. So the first time I was ever like, holy crap, I don't know that was possible. We were in Baltimore. I was in Cleveland. We were in Baltimore. Josh McCown was our quarterback. And they run, you know, pretty standard, like under 34, 25 defense, depending on what people call it. But for people listening, you know, you've got your three bigger guys, your down linemen who tend to play two of them over the tackles, one over the center. And then your two kind of like stand up outside linebacker slash defensive end.

So for Baltimore, you know, it's Terrell Suggs. It's Paul Kruger. you know, it was Matt Judon, you know, those kind of guys. So they're in that look and most teams will just say, all right, those five big guys, we're just going to block those five with the offensive line at all times. And we had a pass play, which is a pretty simple, you know, some teams call it five down, Gilligan, you know, other things like you're on an island. Everyone's on an island.

And we start calling that and Josh goes, oh, no, no, like send the line to the left. And I was the right tackle and I was basically supposed to like fan out to Terrell Suggs. And I was like, I turned around. I was like, are you sure? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, slide it that way. And, you know, Suggs dropped. The linebacker he sent us two blitzed. We picked it up five for five.

He completed it. I was like, holy shit, I didn't know that was possible. Like, he just, he knew that the best player on the team wasn't going to rush. How's that possible? Like, you're just supposed to count for those five and figure out a way to block the others. And it was my first, like, aha moment that there's this other level of quarterback play that they understand defense and coverage. And because, I mean, again, I started it by saying, like, the offensive line,

you typically tend to kind of just look at those front four or five guys that are presented to you on the line. And I didn't realize that he could figure out which were coming and which weren't. You know, on the flip side, I've, you know, play with quarterbacks that, you know, as we're walking to the line, he turns to the center. He's like, hey, man, I'm need some help on this one. If you could tell me, you know, which play to check to. And it's like, okay, well, you know, I'm glad you're confident enough to admit that you don't know that and that you could use some help. I guess. Yeah, it's, you know, so as you said, I've.

I've seen both ends of the spectrum, but in that situation, you know, that's putting the O-line in an advantageous position. You know, it's not, oh, well, we're going to block the five, and now you're putting like a running back on a linebacker who's blitzing, or maybe an offense alignment is late, getting back to help out. You know, he's putting us on the right guys so we can be confident, set confident, you know, put us in the right position. You know, a big thing is confidence and trusting that you know what's going to happen,

and when the quarterback's telling you what's going to happen, and then it does, you know, it's a big boost and pretty cool to be part of it. of it seems like they're kind of three stages and you can tell me if I'm right or wrong here there's a quarterback who doesn't know the rules like that quarterback asking the center what he's supposed to do there's a quarterback who only knows the rules big guys on big guys and there's a quarterback who knows more than the rules would you say that's kind of an accurate if crude picture of kind of how it works yeah i think so and then you know there's honestly a fourth step which is once they can start recognizing defensive fronts because a lot of those guys get to the point where they understand

Oh, corner leverage. A guy's pressed. Okay, now I'm looking at, is it man coverage or is it, you know, like a press cover two? Or, oh, it's safety rotation. It's this for coverage or the other. Or, okay, I see this, you know, slot corner. He's pressed on the slot.

And all of a sudden the safety's over top of him. Well, that guy's probably going to blitz. So a lot of those guys can figure that out. But when you tie that to understanding, oh, well, they're also in this defensive front. And this defensive front gives me a different indicator and another advantage. You know, that's the next step. I think that's probably what we're seeing with that as well. well where you're blending, you know, coverage responsibility with kind of that O-line recognition

skill. And then, you know, there's nothing you're not seeing because certain, you know, in that first scenario where there's five big guys, you know, if you're not clued into understanding that, like, hey, the right tackle's supposed to be blocking Terrell Suggs and he has to push through a guy to get to him, if you just make a call that kind of goes against what the O-line is supposed to do, and now the O-line's confused because you can't do that call against that defense at front. Well, now it's even worse because guys are confused you don't know what to do now you're talking too much if you're on the road it's a delay a game or he's snap you know clap in his hands the center snaps it too early you get beat around the corner anyway so that last piece where they start understanding you know who the big guys are

what the fronts are maybe some games you know this is just an example this has never happened but like say Aaron Donald's in a two technique which is inside a guard uh or two eye inside the guard versus a three tech maybe that's the indicator that week that gives it away and if a quarterback's able to clue into that. Yeah, he's got the complete thing down and you just give him the keys and you let him roll. Have you seen a quarterback move between those stages? Like, did Pat kind of go from one level to the next over the course of your time with him? Because I'm curious how that, when you flip that switch, is it obvious to you in the moment as an offensive lineman? Yeah, for sure. And he went through that. I play with some younger quarterbacks who didn't ascend to his level.

and, you know, I got to see the infant stages, never really get past infancy. But it was cool kind of being there for Pat and seeing that happen. You know, there's a lot of terminology. There's a lot of stuff he needs to know in the Chief's playbook. You know, he has the keys. It's kind of, you know, quarterback directed. Because there's so many, I mean, for people that watch the Chief's offense, I mean, you see how crazy the formations are, the shifts, the motions.

You know, that's stuff that you can't really ask your offense align to fully understand the way a quarterback can. And so the quarterback at the end of the day has to be the one to clue into that. So, you know, the first couple years maybe, you know, you're using a term that's meant for one protection, but you're using it on different protection. You know, the offensive line just needs to realize, like, okay, like I know what he means. I know what is supposed to happen, but we got, you know, four different words for essentially the same thing.

It just depends on the play. It's stuff like that that can be difficult for younger quarterbacks. And that's why when you hear, like, simplifying things, you know, it tends to be the verbiage and the terminology because, you know, the high-level playbooks, it gets pretty wordy, and there's a lot of different calls for a lot of different things. You know, some offensive line coaches, they like keeping things simpler and having less calls and just, okay, well, it's Ricky in this case. And in this protection, Ricky is a two-man slide.

And this protection, it's a three-man, and this protection, it's a four-man slide. And you guys will kind of just know based on, you know, what the protection is. Or some coaches, you know, that's basically the same blocking scheme, but they'll have three different terms for it if it's a two man a three man a four man and now asking the quarterback to know all three of those variations and again this is where it gets back to quarterbacks know in the front now he has to know okay is a left guard covered if he is then it's the three man version if he's not it's the four man version and which call do i make blah blah blah it's the heat of the moment you know if roger comes out instead of ricky you know the o line should be able to say okay well i know he meant

ricky and and make it work so those are typically the things where the quarterback knows what's going on he knows the right call. There's just so many things rattling around in his brain that like something comes out. And, you know, the onus becomes on the offensive line to make that guy right. And I mean, typically it happens, obviously. Those aren't like very big things to be screwing up or to be messing up. That's a pretty small thing in the grand scheme of things. That recognizes in the front stuff.

Is that simply studying? Is that just the amount of film that you watch week to week? Is that something you can only gain over time? because that's like the type of shit that Rivers used to do, right? Where he would point out where people were misaligned on defense. You'd be like, you are in the wrong spot because I know you're supposed to be blitzing right now. Because that's just something you can only do after 15 or 20 years of seeing it happen. Or is that something you feel like guys that really, really get into the film room can gain a quicker understanding of?

Well, there's a few things. So one, you know, football just hits people's brains differently. That's kind of what I'm asking. Yeah. So it always hit mine well. And, you know, for these top level quarterbacks, it's obviously, obviously, hitting their brain properly. Like they can understand space and kind of feel when things are off.

And so they've got to be wired that way from the get-go. You know, it's really difficult. You see offense alignment all the time who just don't grasp like space and concepts and defensive fronts. I mean, there's 12-year pros. You can ask them to get up on a whiteboard and draw a front. You can't do it. Like, but when he gets on the field, it all falls into place and it all makes sense.

That's crazy. You feel the space. So there's that aspect where it is a little bit intrinsic where some guys have it, some don't. There's also the studying aspect and like week to week knowing which blitzes go with which defensive fronts. And then probably the third aspect is like consciously thinking to look for it because, you know, I've said a couple times now the offensive line tends to just, you know, the tackle goes up. Oh, I'm blocking trail sogs on this play. I'm going to look at him. That's all I'm going to look at.

Well, maybe on this third and aid, I know if a certain guy is on a different side of the field and they might be running a certain pressure or if a safety is in this spot or if, like I said, you know, the safety is over top of this line. but, you know, Defender, maybe I know, well, Terrest Suggs is going inside now because that guy outside of him is blitzing and thinking those things through and making it a conscious choice to like, okay, let me check this next aspect that I don't typically check and that I don't normally look at. And then it becomes part of your muscle memory and you start doing it every play. So it's kind of a combination of all three of those, but, you know, obviously some guys are wired that way where it hits their brain right and some guys that takes a lot of work and develops over time. Who's the guy that you played with or that you noticed that it just hit their brain differently?

That for whatever reason, they just saw it in a way that was different than everybody else. Well, I mean, Pat obviously does. He can throw like the fourth read on a play that coaches run for 30 years, and that guy's never caught it in his life, and all of a sudden he's catching a touchdown on it because, you know, I think Kafka's talked about that and things before that, like, Pat's made him a better quarterback coach because, you know, he's got to make sure that like all the routes are covered and all these things that a normal

quarterback can't see like whatever reason pat can be looking right and like know what that corner on the opposite side of the field is doing that's completely out of his vision but like he has that feel that he can see it but when i got to kansas city alec smith i mean he was so advanced and that was you know by far the best guy had played with and his command of everything like every single thing was precise it was correct you know he was under the harbaw system in san francisco which had a lot of checks and A lot of multiple plays called in the huddle. And he just ran Coach Reed's offense so efficiently and knew all the checks, you know, every week, knew all the, you know, the blitz is, what the defensive fronts were, how to get us into the right call. So that was like a whole other level of, you know, football experience for me getting there and it was a lot of fun.

Where do you see gaps between like IQ intelligence and football intelligence? Yeah, that one's a little bit more difficult. to parse out. I feel like... Because I'm sure they do exist. Like if you're a smart person, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're able to process

on a football level the way that somebody who sees the game might be able to. Yeah, I think that's where we're trending the anti-wonderlook stuff that like, you know, how you do on that specific test

or like these measures of IQ doesn't correlate to, you know, true IQ level or true knowledge level. You know, for me, like I said, football makes a ton of sense. Like the space, the movement, all those things. I can't play chess.

I've tried to pick up chess a bunch of times over my life. And that freaking chess board does not make sense. I was talking about the box view of watching football. And it makes way more sense from that top-down view. Well, that's what a chess board is. You can see all the spots. You can see all the pieces. And I leave the king and the queen open all the time because it doesn't hit my brain right.

I try to learn it. I try to study it. I try to do it. It just doesn't work. I have to imagine if these franchises had the key to know which. guys are football IQ smart we wouldn't have so many you know mistakes in the first and second round so I'd imagine it's hard to quantify and hard to know which is going to translate but I think that's why they you know there's the stories of Pat that they gave him you know some defensive stuff two months prior and

you know two months later he still remembered it or he knew the terminology you know some guys that just wire that way and I think they all have their little tricks to parse through it you know I remember getting coached. I think it was by Skarnakio with New England in some point in the process. And he was pretty good about asking you stuff and teaching you stuff like early on in the session and then an hour or two later seeing if you remembered it, you know, trying to test your retention of, you know, coaching points. And if you're able to kind of have that sync in and be able to recall it later. So they definitely look for it. They try to, you know, see if you're able to learn stuff and then teach it back to them later. But yeah, they're, like I said, some guys can't draw

play. Some guys, it just doesn't make sense to them. They get on the field. It all comes together. Some guys are like brilliant in the classroom. They get on the field. Like it doesn't work for them. They have to, you know, walk through the play a bunch of times and all of a sudden it starts to slow down and make sense. But in terms of like figuring out the correlation, it's just, it's such a hard process. I'm curious if you were trying to like reverse engineer it. Are there similar traits among people who really do grasp the mental side of it? Like are they in love with the process of figuring it out? Is it just this like somehow this galaxy brain stuff? I know there's probably not an answer, but I'm very interested in this because I think that a lot of with like offensive coaches

and quarterbacks, I think you have to enjoy the process of figuring it out. A lot of the guys that I've seen and talked to are successful, they genuinely derive pleasure from like, all right, this is X problem. This is Y solution. It is fun for me to get from X to Y. Yeah, for me it's very much that way. like how it's like a problem it's a it's a puzzle you're always trying to solve it you know one of the guys who has one of the greatest football minds i've ever been around is travis kelsey and you know he and i wouldn't get compared very often in many facets of life so like he's got this brilliant football mind and it's like it's a beautiful mind type stuff like early on you know i'm pretty good mentally he's exceptional mentally you know we'd be in the huddle we kind of be like whispering because

he would line up next to me depending on, you know, where the quarterback enters the huddle. And we'd be kind of like making jokes or doing other things. The quarterback's calling the play. Like he's still talking. And then we line up and like he's still heard of the whole play. He knows where to line up. He knows the motion. He knows what route to run.

So to be able to like multitask, like be making jokes, be talking about other stuff. And then like still kind of hear the play in your ear that you're not really focusing on and then go out and execute it. And this isn't games, obviously. This is just like walkthroughs and stuff. But that was when I was like, oh my God, like, this guy's brilliant, the fact that he can do that. Because most guys, I mean, if you're talking while a play is being called or you're listening to someone else, like you just have no chance of doing it. And so, you know, I don't think that like there's kind of that trait or there's a set of things.

You know, to go back to your original question of can you learn it? Like I would say the guys that are very driven and like to study that like to prepare, those guys will maximize, you know, their natural gifts more than guys who don't want to work. But what level of, you know, kind of beautiful mind football makes sense to me you start with. I think that's just, you know, you get lucky with that. All right. That's all the time we got for today. That was very fun.

I love digging into both of those. We will be back with you next week. I always appreciate the time, buddy, sincerely. It's great to have you back on the show. I also really appreciate all of you guys listening. Thank you very much for taking the time. We will be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones and with our Bengals writer, Paul Neidner Jr. Lindsay wrote about Urban Meyer this week.

I'm sure we will dig into that with her. In the meantime, thank you very much to John Beck for joining us. I really enjoyed that conversation. For you guys, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Also, please subscribe to the athletic. It's the athletic.com slash football show. You will not be disappointed. I highly encourage you to do that if you do not have a subscription already.

We will be back tomorrow. Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.