The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Ryan Fitzpatrick retiring after 17 seasons + ranking the top 10 GMs to build a NFL roster

Episode Date: June 3, 2022

Robert Mays and Nate Tice begin the show by discussing Ryan Fitzpatrick’s retirement, his 17-year career and their favorite memories of the QB. Then, they transition the conversation to the top GMs in the NFL and who they would want to build a roster from scratch. They each rank their top 10 candidates to oversee a team. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Friday, June 3rd. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend, Nate Tyson. How are you doing, buddy? Doing very well.

Yeah, this is a fun ranking. This was nice. This was nice to really, I would say get outside the box, but maybe get outside the comfort zone a little bit because I'll talk coaches all the time. And I can do that offense coronators and play callers. But then once you get to GMs, really got to start thinking about these things. We both had to close a lot of tabs, which I know that's... Oh, my God. It took me 10 minutes to start the podcast today because of how many tabs I had to close.

The Spinney Pinwheel was just sitting on my desktop for about 10 straight minutes. Once the article I'm working on, one's this for this pod. And both of them had at least a dozen tabs open just on all these different aspects that I was looking at. So what we're doing today, we're ranking our top 10 GMs. This is an important... The set of rules is often arbitrary and just something we throw in out of obligation. it's necessary to lay these out. I want to make this clear before we start. This is not a power ranking of the jobs that these guys have done recently or in their careers.

This is if you are starting a team from scratch right now, every player in the league is a free agent. We're starting from square one. Who would you want to oversee your team? That is different than who has done the best job over the last five, ten their entire careers. So I think that's important to keep in mind that my list is, built with that in mind. Some difficulties when it comes to this. There's an opacity with NFL franchises about who does what within a building. So sometimes it's difficult to look at a singular GM be like, oh, this is the person

responsible for building this roster. That could be the case for a million different reasons. For example, I have someone on my list who is not technically the general manager of his team because the owner is the general manager of the team and the owner's son is the the executive vice president of football operations. Oh, that's funny. I avoided that one just to not get messy. That's so funny.

And we can get into why it's naughty and all of that, but this is true everywhere. And that's a specific case, a much more prevalent case, are teams with a head coach that is kind of the figurehead overseer of the organization. That's why John Lynch is not on my list because I don't know what to do with John Lynch because Kyle Shanahan makes the football final decisions in San Francisco. So I think that this is complicated, but what I wanted to do here is just look at the processes that some of these franchises have followed and which ones we like and which ones we don't like. That's how I built my list. All right.

If I wanted to create a set of principles by which I wanted to consistently build a football roster and try to win Super Bowls, who would I want to oversee those principles based on the jobs they have done during their time as NFL. general managers. That's what I did. It is not easy. No. We will go through this. I mean, it's a top 10 list. You could do it in a lot of different orders. So I don't want people to obsess about what the final order of this is. I think this was just a chance for us to step back and talk about the ways that these guys have overseen personnel departments and the way they've tried to build teams during their ten years. That being said, we have to start the show by talking about Ryan Fitzpatrick. Ryan Fitzpatrick retired today. A singular NFL figure during my lifetime, during my time covering the NFL.

Ryan Fitzpatrick came into the league in 2005. Okay, 2005. That was my junior year of high school. So my fall of 2006, I went to college at Missouri, two hours from St. Louis where he was playing. So we started getting little pockets of Ryan Fitzpatrick around the time I, I was at the University of Missouri. He was my camp counselor. One of my camp counselors at the Manning Academy in Louisiana.

That's incredible. So he was at when he was a senior, going to be a senior at Harvard, I was going to be junior in high school. I think, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Or yeah, going to be a junior or going to be a sophomore in high school. Yeah. So that's kind of funny.

Like looking back and he's still playing in the NFL. I mean, 17 years, 10 teams, I want to say. I went to Arizona last year. If you guys have not read the story, I spent some time. at Ryan Fitzpatrick's house that they have down there in Chandler with him and his family. Watching a man make breakfast for his seven children is an experience that I will never forget. He's making it on a restaurant-style griddle outside on their patio. So just, I mean, packages of bacon and sausage and just a vat of pancake batter.

And watching them do it was wild. I mean, kids of all ages, like babies, toddlers, kids in high school. and they're all eating at the same stretch of countertop. And we just kind of sat and talked. We talked for hours about his career and about just the various stages of it. He kind of broke it up into different sections. You know, there's the time in St. Louis where he framed his first check that was worth $200.

He was like, he never thought he'd get another one. That's awesome. Then he gets traded to Cincinnati. And when you get traded to Cincinnati, it's like, oh, a team is investing in me. They're trading for me. They're putting an actual asset into me. I'm a backup quarterback now. He was Carson Palmer's backup.

And then he obviously had that stretch where he got to start in Buffalo and he was kind of his team. And he was that cult figure and Fitzmagic happens. And there's this weird lovable Bill's team that has him and Stevie Johnson and Fred Jackson on it and Eric Wood. And that we have that character. And then he goes to the Jets and takes over as the starter because Gino Smith gets punched in the jaw. I mean, it's just a wild career. And then it fizzles out with the Jets. He's done.

He's like, I'm out. I don't want to play anymore. Like, that was a horrible experience. He was pretty open about it. I mean, that second year with the Jets when they refused to pay him and all he, just wanted one year and like $15 million. That was it. And they just refused to do it.

And then Dirk Cutter calls him when he's on a golf course the following off season and convinces him to come to Tampa to back up James Winston. And then he has that stretch in Tampa where he plays. plays fantastic for like four games he wears the Sean Jackson chain I mean a backup quarterback a journeyman quarterback has never had so many moments that are kind of burned into your brain in the way that Ryan's the four scoff he's the four he's so so is I mean just a there's no there's never been anybody like him

I don't know if there ever be anyone after him and then the time in Miami yeah like he goes to Miami and he's it's supposed to be this joke of a team and they play hard and he plays really well. There's that weird to his situation. He comes in in the Raider game and throws that ridiculous pass on the left side of and won't get his head ripped off. Face mask and over, pull over to the side. Yeah.

He, there's, I'm telling you. I mean, his career is just etched into my brain in a way that very few guys, I mean, even that played over a decade in the league ever will be. So I think we have to kind of sit back and acknowledge and appreciate what Ryan Fitzpatrick was to all of us. Yeah. He's, he's the true mad. bomber. I know that's a nickname for some other

quarterbacks in Monaco, but it's, yeah, that's what he was. And what's so funny is, his play style was so different than what you think his pedigree would be the wait round Harvard guy that you think would just be this surgeon from the backfield. And he could do that, but nope, he was bombs away, one after

another. So it's an exciting style that's memorable. And as opposed to, you know, what's the Neil Young line? Better burn out than fade away. But his is like, he managed to stay for over a decade. while playing that style. So he got to do the best of both worlds.

But no, just a hell of a career. And like I said before, my first exposure to him was when I was in high school. And he was my counselor at the Manning Academy and him like Derek Anderson and others. And he was just telling stories up there. And everyone up there was like, this guy's like funny. Like you could even tell at the time that he was kind of like, I would say goofy,

but like had a funny way about him. You know, it was him and Cooper Manning basically doing standup. So then also going to the pros and actually having a career more than, just like a little note footnote because that's that was the thing for years. Oh, he went to Harvard. How many Harvard guys have there been? And then it's like now you just remember him as the player. And which I think is just so cool that you can kind of overcome maybe that footnote and become more a bigger part of the league history, league lore where we're doing a podcast years from now talking about him. Like that's the type of career that kind of like really is fitting for his style of personality.

There were two two things he said to me that really stuck out. One was. talking about the young guys on the dolphins and just about how young players in general, they've rarely failed. You know, these guys are the best guys in high school or the best guys in college for the most part. They're all Americans. They're people who've kind of cruised through their football lives. And he just loved giving guys confidence, you know, like throwing up 50, 50 balls to Mike

his sickie in practice. He really, George Gottzzi, who was a tight-ins coach in Miami, told me this. And I think Fitzpatrick kind of echoed it. He really took a liking to get a kiss. like you and just an attention to him. It's like, I'm going to throw him these balls in practice. I'm going to make him go get him and just remind him consistently. Like, you're really good.

Like, you're really talented. And I thought that process and just how natural but intentional he was as a leader. And that was communicates me by a bunch of different people, Lee Smith, Brandon Marshall, a lot of different guys. I think that's a really difficult thing to pull off. Yeah. And it's difficult to be that kind of guy without it feeling fake or forced. And it feels like with him it never was. go with.

And he was sitting there at his desk when we were talking, and he was talking about some of the younger guys in the league and just quarterbacks in general and throwing the ball on a balance or, you know, taking a late sack or like doing something. He was just, he was slamming his hand on the table. He's like, I fucking hate watching guys play like that. And you could just feel how aggressive he wants everyone to be. It plays the position.

And I think that came later in his career. I think that as he kind of came out of the Jets era, and you watched him start to play in Tampa, it just, you can't kill a dead man. And like he was, after that Jets experience, I think he was like,

he had no fucks left to give. And he could see it in the way that he played. And it was, and that's exactly what, that was the phrase we used. He was like, just house is mine. I was playing with house money,

had nothing left to lose. And watching a guy play like that is exhilarated. I mean, it's really, really fun. And we just don't have that many guys that play the position like that anymore for better, for worse.

And we've come to a place. of quarterback efficiency, but a really cool experience getting to sit there and have that conversation with him. I will remember him fondly. I hope he gets to be on TV. I would love to listen to him, talk about the game. And even his football education was interesting. The way he talked about when he went to Houston and that system with the Patriots, where the quarterback controls everything. And when you played for Chan Galey, it was a lot of guidelines. Just a lot of like, yeah, you know, we'll figure it out. It's just four wide shotgun. figure it out. You just kind of run around and we'll make it all happen. And then the Patriots is the

furthest thing from that where everything is so regimented. And I just, hearing him talk through that kind of stuff is really interesting. And I would love to watch him break down young quarterbacks and get pissed off when they throw the ball out of bounds and all of that stuff on Amazon every single Thursday. So we'll see if that happens. No, I think that would really fit him. And also just have the proper level of insight of, you know, like you say, efficiency or or screw it, which is the fine balance that we talk about with these guys. And his kind of line of thinking is in line of thinking with how quarterbacks should be playing maybe in this day and age, you know, as far as aggression and maybe where the game's going. So yeah, it might be good to have them on TV.

I would love it. I think there's a lot of former quarterbacks or former players that are like, oh, they should be on media. And I'm like, no, no, no, they only can last about an hour until they're running out of stuff to say. I don't think Fitzpatrick will ever run out of stuff to say or constantly or not. constantly be entertaining. I think he'd be perfect for that. So I'm happy for him. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's done okay. He's done just fine for himself. I'm upset. We didn't get seen him in Washington last year. It's a really the only kind of thing I've lamented. I wish he could have just had that one more year as the undisputed starter where it was his team. He hadn't gotten

that many opportunities. And unfortunately, that was taken away. But I think he's going to be just fine in retirement. He was never going to be a backup. No. He was never going to be somebody who bounced around the league and held a clipboard and no interest. And for him, for him to retire in this moment without ever having really been like a true backup recently without any chance to play. Not surprising at all. So I was not shocked to hear the news from Marissa as Mr. 1B recording this.

Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right. All right. Let's get into this. Here's how I want to lay this out. I want to talk about a couple guys who did not make our lists just initially. Then we're going to go 10 through 6 to talk about those guys and 5 through 1 and talk about those guys.

I think that's the best way to kind of structure this conversation. So I already mentioned John Lynch. John Lynch did not make my list. I don't know if he made yours. He did not. Okay. Same reasons. Same exact reasons.

So I'm glad we're. And also. I'm glad we were on the same wavelength as far as put that together a little bit. It's not as if they've hit all these home runs draft wise. I mean, they've done a decent job at finding players in interesting ways. Like the Trump Williams trade is a good example. And they've retained their players.

And they've really gotten the most of guys who were drafted even before they got there. Yeah. Like the Jimmy Awards of the world. and even Eric Armstead, I think, was on leash by the way they started playing. I mean, it's a really good team. And the George Kittal, Debo Samuel kind of double dip over those couple years is incredibly impressive. But John Lynch did not make my final list. Mickey Loomis also did not make my final list.

He's 65. And the Saints have undeniably had a ton of success. It's not how I would do it. So I think that's partially why he did not make my list is that it's just not the way I would want to do business. businesses in NFL team, even though it's worked like gangbusters for that. Yeah, I don't want to give away. But there's an aggressive guy in there that I did make my list. But that is, it's hard to live that way.

And it's a lot to take in, especially if I can start fresh with all my assets and do whatever I want to do. Yeah. You wouldn't have them for very long. I don't want to live that life for all too long. So yeah. And, you know, of course, him too with Loomis, too, is how much does Sean Peyton have an effect on those guys? Absolutely. Even Jeff Ireland.

Yes. In Jeff Reilly. Yes. The guy who's, I mean, he, Mickey Loomis oversees that organization in a very big way. I think he's done a fantastic job. But again, there's a little bit, it's a little murkiness as far as how that organization actually works day to day. And you'll hear me a couple times on this list trying to kind of argue on both sides of my mouth about where, where the kind of line is of who's a personnel guy, who's making those decisions. So I'm sure you'll be the same way.

Because there's going to be. It's hard. It's difficult. It's so hard. I was hearing those meetings every day. it's so hard to determine who does who does what and who has what that what say on what there might be times where a GM who takes every pick and makes every pick also goes oh we're talking old line old line coach what do you think or oh man oh we are the Steelers with how they do positions oh our receiver scout what do you think like they defer to that so it's like okay but then then you get to the argument of is that good management or good decision making so i don't it can be right yeah it goes both ways so we'll get into all of that The last person I wanted to talk about is Andrew Barry. Andrew Barry would have been on my list.

I don't know if he's on yours. Andrew Barry would have been on my list. I think it's just difficult to talk about right now after the Watts and stuff. Before that, I think a lot of the ways that he approached the job and just some of his team building philosophies and really offense first and going after young players in the draft and trading down and valuing and the way they thought about positional value. I think a lot of the ways he was being.

building the Browns is the ways are the ways that I would have. Yeah. But the Watson stuff just, I think, muddies the water to the point where I'm not really comfortable throwing him on there and talking about it in depth. Yeah. And then I have two other guys that didn't make my list. I just also want to give a shout out. And it's just a preference thing.

One is, and I can't believe this guy didn't make my list. And I'm still like, like borderline. It's Tom Telesco from the Chargers. It didn't make mine either. Okay. Okay, good. I thought that would be a little edgy. but it's when you break it down and just how he's how they've gone about things they got you know the injury stuff for years and years that the chargers have faced you know that's that's more probably ownership but as far as just some of the assets stuff who they've taken at what times they've hit on some picks like you know and then obviously they have talent there in the charges hitting on Justin Herbert is a huge feather in your cap but as far as building the team some of the other decisions that he's making other positions has always kind of left me scratch in my head maybe saying a guy too

too late, maybe taking certain guys, overdrafting certain players. And that kind of caused some worry for me, especially they always seem to have the same kind of consistent holes year after year, maybe at the running back position outside Ackler, tight end seemingly since Antonio Gates has gone on years and years ago. So you're kind of like, okay, well, you got to shore that up. You can't just have these retreads or little patchwork stuff. So there's certain things with him that prevented me from putting them in my top 10. They have splashy players.

Like when you, even before Justin Herbert got there, like in Justin Herbert's early seasons, Durbin James, Joey Bosa, guys that are stars. But Joey Bosa is the third overall pick in the draw. Exactly. You know, there are plenty of other moves they've made, even in the Herbert draft, trading up to go get Kenneth Murray. Yeah. It's like, what do we do it?

Why did you do that? They have, they have guys that are really name up in lights, marquee players. But the connective tissue of that team, like we saw last year, it's pretty barren in certain spots. I mean, the front seven, it was both set and the both sets. That was the joke. But that's, I mean, that comes with the personnel they've drafted. The amount of overhauling they've had to do since Staley has gotten there, I think, tells

you what he probably thought of the roster when he took it over. And again, it's hard to parse out who deserves credit for rebuilding a roster that needed to be rebuilt after he got there. And I think they do deserve credit for fixing the offensive line and the ways that they've done that. But I feel comfortable leaving him off here. I think they do deserve a ton of. credit for drafting Justin Herbert. Yeah.

And what that is for them. But outside of that, I think there's been some, you know, stuff left. It's more like, hey, Tom, who'd you talk to about drafting Herbert? Like was a PEP? Well, you know, it was a Lynn. You know, so one of the, and then the other guy I want to bring up too. And this is, this one hurt me not to have my list because they, he's made a lot. He's drafted a lot of guys.

He's a man after my heart with who they've drafted. And that's Joe Douglas. And he did not. I think it's too early. Way too early. Yeah. Okay. That's what, well,

there's a guy I have on my list that's way too early but that's oh all right I don't have any of those yeah but Joe Douglas he drafts a lot of guys but again that was I'm gonna be talking about both sides of my mouth a lot of this show but really it was that that's what it is I have to see did he hit on the quarterback I like a lot of the stuff he did I understand a lot of the arguments but now I have to see it come to fruition do where those moves you know justified or not so he stayed off my list even if I do like a lot of the kind of certain guys that he drafts so if I had a meeting with Joe Douglas if I the owner hiring him. I'd probably be like, yeah, I like him too, Joe.

Like, so maybe that's why he gets honorable mention for me. Yeah, I just, a couple years in the job, we have still wait to see how a lot of that stuff plays out. But the way he's gone about it, you could argue with some of the process stuff, trading up for the guard, trading up for the running back. But a lot of what they've done, I can get totally on board with. So I think you and I are on the same page. All right, let's get going here.

10 through 6, lay it on me. All right, 10's my spicy one. 10 is my projection one. and that's Brad Holmes from the lines. Wow. Okay. Picking it off with the bag. I won't get,

why we just keep listening and then we can talk? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep going. So nine is Belichick. Okay. Belichick is not on my list.

Okay, I was, yes, he, he was tough for me. Belichick is 70. If I were starting a team, I probably wouldn't pick Bill Belichick. Do I get five years with you? Like, you know,

that's, yeah, that's the only reason. I mean, Bill Belichick, if this is past performance, then I think obviously Bill Belichick is probably number one. totally get it but that's not what this is totally get it no totally doubt that's my argument's against

him anyways eight is jason licked uh for with the bucks uh jason light light i always i'm a very verbatim ununciated jacin licked licked light jason light i knew that i've talked to him before that's embarrassing all right seven is brett vich six is chris ballard and then that is my 10 through six okay so we have some of the same ones i'm wondering if i have got on my list that you have higher. Okay? My top three I'm pretty set on. Like I feel good about my top three.

But other than that, it's a grab bag. One of the guys you just said is in my top three. Okay. Okay. John Robinson is number 10 for me. I, well, we could talk about it. Mixed first round results. But I feel like they found useful players at a lot of spots.

I mean, AJ Brown, the second round picks that they've made. And I just think I really am impressed by the consistency they've shown over the last few years. I think some of that's coaching, but also the self-awareness they showed this off-season was very impressive to me. And that's, and we can talk about this as a general philosophy thing, but your pivot points. Where can you pivot? Can you navigate me through some rough waters? And what they did this off-season and kind of say, all right, what is this going to be? What are we going to do now?

And I think you can look at the moves. Each of the moves, even if they burn them. I'm talking outside of the draft. They were justifiable in the moment. trading for Julio. When they traded for Julio, I was like, I get it. I get it. This is like, you've pride open this window.

You have this team and you have this hole now. I understand it. Restructuring Ryan-Tanel's contract to make room for Julio. Understand it. And it's left them in a precarious spot right now with how much money they have allocated to a unit that we think is worse than it was two years ago. But I understand everything they've done in the moment. Continuing to double down on that, that would have been a mistake. And they didn't do it.

So now it's like, all right, what does this transition? look like. So it's the consistency combined with, I'm impressed with them, even in the draft this year, where they traded down with the Jets, and then they got McCreery in the second round, and they got Petit Ferrer in the third round. So just to get an extra third to make that trade down, that's just understanding where you are. We just need to start accumulating some players again. We're in a pretty awkward spot. So I don't know. I've just appreciated the job that they've done over the last couple of years. Also, the Ryan Tannhill trade is one of the best moves that any general manager has made in the last five years.

It's easy to forget now because of the price tag next to his name, but what they did to get really high level starting quarterback play, and to do that and not just commit to Mario Da because. To actively seek out an alternative to Mario da in that moment, I think is, again, a level of self-awareness that a lot of other general managers have not shown. It's like, we're going to hope the guy works out. And they didn't do that. And it put them in a spot.

where they're hosting playoff games and they're they never got there but they were pretty close and that offense was pretty damn good with a quarterback that they got in a really creative way. I was so I've always liked that he I should say like sometimes it's to their detriment, but they do have a type. Big and fast. Big fast physical. I mean, they are fine with that. Like they have a version of that team.

You can it can give you blinders sometimes. That's a weakness and that's even for me. This is self-evaluation for me because I lean towards the same types of guys. and but if you have that, it really gets you onto a path that works for you. As far as a style of play, what we can do, the types of guys we get. And you're never going to be the wrong going for the bigger or faster guy. I mean, it's just physics. And so I've always do, I do like that they do have a type, even if it does sometimes lead to blinder moments.

Even some of the, every single bad veteran free agent move that they made, I think was offset by a pretty decent one. The Bud Dupree move, not a fan. Would never do it, would never pay him $60 million. It's not something I'm going to do. De Nicarry was awesome from him last year. They signed for $7 million a season. Going to get to Norris Jenkins last year for $7 million or whatever it was and moving on from Adory Jackson to do that.

They've been smart with a lot of those moves. Ben Jones was an awesome free agent signing. That played to the end of his contract. Roger Saffold, while expensive, was really good for them. Set the tone. Exactly. Trying to figure out what they wanted to be in their identity on offense. Even the Robert Woods.

I was just going to say the Robert Woods is going to be a solid move for them. That is a savvy decision as you're trying to navigate this weird transitional period for what your roster is. And what better guy to have teach a young receiver than Robert Woods? I mean, he's going to be teaching Trailenberg's day and day out. That is just one of the best minds in the receiver room that you can have. My number nine is Will McQuay. Okay. Yeah.

I know he's not a GM. I know. But if I were picking somebody to start running my team, I'd be totally okay with it. We can talk about that in a second. Eight, I had Brett Veach. Seven, I had Brian Gunn-Konst. Okay.

And six, I had Jason White. Okay. Okay. So let's talk about McLeigh for a minute. Okay. I love the Cowboys process. Like, we talk about the Cowboys because of Jerry Jones as this flip-it kind of rash organization, and their personnel moves are not that at all.

They're a meticulous team. They're consistently getting a bunch of comp picks. He's overseen their draft since 2014. Their drafts since 2014, we've talked about this, are pretty fucking good. They've gotten a lot of really good players. And even moves that aren't that splashier big draft picks, the Robert Quinn trade. To trade a fifth round pick for Robert Quinn, and then the year after the bear's given $15 million a year, $14 million a year, Anybody could have traded a fifth round pick for Robert Quinn in that moment.

The Cowboys did. The Amari Cooper trade, I thought, was a smart deal and something they needed to do. So there's been enough aggressiveness combined with them really sticking to their plan. The J-Ron Curse contract from last year. That's a huge one. To go like, all right, here's a million bucks. You're going to play this very specific role within our defense, and this is what you do. Getting solid play out a replacement level contract.

That sets the goal of the game. It really is. And they've done a really good job of it. that, I think, in certain areas on defense, and then going to get superstar level players. I mean, Micah Parsons is that guy, and they've done a decent job of really finding high-level guys in the draft. So I just think they've done a really, really good job, and that's why he's on there for me. Where was Veach for you?

Veach was seven. So he was eight for me. Some people, I think, would argue that he should be higher. Yeah. So, and, but he's not for either of us. So talk me through why he is not higher on your list. One is how much say does Andy Reid have? Because Andy Reid is very, very into their personnel decisions.

So that wasn't even that much of a factor for me. And he's still on my list. Mine would be, I'll go positives first, is that I would say this past year I became more of a fan of beach because of the. Bingo. Since like May, since like April of 2021, I'm a much bigger fan of him than I was before. It was the, because before I was like. okay, you hit on my homes and then you've just whiffed since then.

Like, that's what it felt like anyways. And now this past year, we're talking about understanding and self-awareness is going to be such a repeated line in this because I think what they did last year, because they had the glaring holes in the offensive line, getting exposed in the Super Bowl, will do that to you. But I think shoring up the offensive line, understanding what their weakness is, what their weakness was and turning into a huge strength. even this past year, you know, getting rid of Tyreek Hill, adjusting their receiver room based on what I think they're going to do on offense there, moving on from Honey Badger and getting Justin Reed because they're one, maybe more of a sound tackling type who can provide some like variability back there and do some whole bunch of things.

But really overcoming the misfires, the Frank Hart deal sucked. The CEH pick, I think it was Reed influence, but still that's hard to, you know, you got to put your foot down at some point. But that's why I was down on him. And again, I'll say this past year made me a little bit higher on him. So I think Spot 7 is where I feel a little bit better about him. I really do think they're going to come out. Maybe this revamped Chief's team, I'll become even a bigger fan of him of how they've kind of adjusted their whole franchise.

If you look at the moves before the 2021 offseason, the one where they got all the offensive line. It's a mixed bag, man. Frank Clark trade is rough. Yeah, it's rough. I mean, what they gave up for him and the contract. To give up all of that and to give him a massive contract, I mean, it's just a tough move. It did not work out for them in the way that they wanted it to.

Sammy Watkins deal in 2018, not a good contract. There have been some swings, they gave him like a huge deal. Yeah. There have been some swings and misses at certain positions. Tyrone Matthew deal, really, really good. Yes. I mean, that one works out, well, $16 million a year for Sammy Watkins in 2018. Oh, 2018.

$0.16 million a year. 9% of the cap, average annual value. It's a lot of money for Sammy Wallens. And there have been some of those. And the draft history is not very good. The C.H pick, I think you can be criticized. McCle Hardman is kind of a hat on a hat with what their offense was at that point. And some of the defensive front players that they've taken in the first couple rounds, Brewin speaks.

I mean, those guys have not really worked out. But all that being said, I think what they have done over the last two years is extremely impressive. The offensive line revamping was really well done. I mean, getting it from a bunch of different directions, being able to go out. I mean, when you give a guy $16 million as a guard, that's not hard to do. But I think picking the right guy is an important part of that process, somebody that's never hurt, somebody who has positional flexibility. He had that one game where he just popped out to left tackle.

I mean, very few guys can do that as smoothly as Joe Tooney can. The Orlando Brown deal would have liked to have seen him sign him immediately after making that trade rather than playing the waiting game and doing the dance they're doing now. but a creative way to go find a plug-in-play starter at that spot. And what they did with the two rookies. I mean, to do that in one off-season is remarkable. And to understand we have to do it, I think they deserve credit for that. And what they did this off-season, it's like, this is how we need to transition into this next phase of who we are.

I'm on board with every single aspect of them. I was hoping that they would use some of those picks to revamp the defense with some younger players. You pick a pass rush or you pick a corner. It's like, this is a new look version of who we are. This is phase two of the Mahomes era. And I really like how they've gone about it. Over the last couple of years, I think it's really easy to overlook some of those mistakes just because Patrick Mahomes is so good.

So good. It's great. And they deserve credit. He deserves credit for drafting him and for going up and making that move. A ton of credit. But I think that that was really the, that was the jewel surrounded by some not-so. pretty stuff over the last couple years before, in my opinion, the last couple

off seasons. It's the shining light and a whole bunch of darkness. Yes. That's what it is right there. But yeah, I, yeah, not much more to add, but that I think you summed out perfectly. And you can be really aggressive when you have that guy. And I think some of the aggression is fueled by the fact that we have this

thing to hang all of the rest of this on. If we make some mistakes and we get a little bit over aggressive, we can always fall back on having this guy. And I think that should drive some of your decision making. At the same time, though, that aggression was not always pointed in the right way. Yep.

Nope. Totally agree. I think now they're entering this new phase of their team of Mahomes' now full on of that contract and now it's all going to be about the bank of Mahomes and how you can trade against and switch the guarantees with that and accumulate more money for your cap. So I think that's this next step for him is going to be interesting. And Andy Reid's only getting older.

So seeing these next couple steps for the chiefs team can maybe even see him shoot up this rankings or maybe go, oh, maybe the Frank Hart deal was really more of an insight of how he thinks. So you never know. All right. So let's backtrack to Brad Holmes at 10 for you very quickly. Lay this on me because I'm very interested in why you have him that high. I don't mind it at all.

I'm just wondering. It's if there's all these kind of younger guys and I do, again, this is another guy. I think he has some influence from his head coach. I can see the path they're trying to go on. And I think that is really, really cool. to see for a guy that's only entering his second year as a GM. But I could see the culture that they're trying to build in Detroit. And again, that's a reflection probably of the head coach they have, but that's also good kind of insight to maybe their thinking and showing that like he understands what

they are. I like the moves they've made. They have not rushed to anything. They short up, not short up the offense line. They boosted the offense line with Sewell last year. They didn't get, you know, oh, we got to get a receiver now. They've stayed patient with all these moves, even though they moved up back up into the first round to get Jameson Williams. I thought that was a great understanding. And they really, it was a, it depends on what the trade chart, yada, yada, yada. They still didn't give a bad much chart. They got a second rounder back.

Like, yeah, I thought that was, it's a nice move. And you're not going to get a Jameson Williams type in every trap, especially for a team that needed team speed. So it all made sense. The DJ Charks signing, even for one year. I like that. Like that, that fit into there. Just also just the, this is more a reflection of the coach, but they, you know,

they play hard with that. But I also think the types. the guys they're getting, a coach can say they want certain guys. Coaches, position coaches, coordinators, head coaches, they come in and said, I want this guy, I want this guy, I want this guy. Take it for a GM to kind of take that and translate it into something that works and doesn't you know, put you, make you bankrupt or or dock something down in the future or down the road. I like that the patience that the lines have shown.

I know it's only year two. I get it. But I think these first couple steps that they've taken as a franchise, they were going nowhere before that Stafford trade and understanding, hey, might as well just like, let's boost this rebuild a little bit. Let's just get going. Let's reload. Let's go.

I just really like that understanding that stuff we're going to stay shown so far. So it's kind of a projection pick, a prospect. He's my GM prospect right now. So that's why I love that though, because that's what this is. This is not about past performance. This is about, all right, what process have we seen? Which ones can we get on board with? And I don't disagree with any of that.

And here's what I'll say. There's been a lot of good feelings around the Lions over the last couple months. I know, we got to understand what they are. I think we might be getting a little ahead of ourselves here. Yeah. Like six wins is a good year. Like I hope people understand that. Like, yeah.

I just, it makes me worried about Lions fans. Yeah. I just want, guys, it's going to be, I'm not saying you're the ones doing this. I'm just concerned about your emotional well-being based on what this conversation feels like. It was, it's, it's excitement to be like kind of, you know, watchable. It's not, it's not a like, like, oh, we're storming the playoffs and everything. If they make the wild card, that's awesome, good for them.

But it's like, I think anything above six wins is a victory for the Lions franchise, not 10 wins or 11 wins. You should shoot for a more reasonable number. I will be very curious to see what the quarterback move that ends up with. If it's next off season, they have that extra first round pick to be able to go back up to 13 and get Williams and not have to give up that 20, 23 first that you have. I mean, maybe you're picking sixth and you got to. another one. It's not that hard to maneuver.

They could, they found this really nice little sweet spot where they're bad, but everyone feels good about it. Yeah. And that's really hard to do. And they've managed to do that. And if they go six and twelve, how many games are there? 17. They go six and eleven this year and they end up with the sixth pick. And if they want to give a team that doesn't, let's say the Jags finished with the second worst roster record in the league this year, very much on the table. And and you want to move from 6 to 2, and you have, I think the Rams are going to be pretty good. Let's say that you have the 28th pick.

You want to give that to the Jaguars to move from 6 to 2. That could easily happen for you. So a lot of these teams, we're talking about, all right, they have multiple first round picks. Can they be within striking distance of going to get another quarterback? I think teams like the Eagles and some of these other teams might be a little too good for that to easily happen. I think the lions are going to be bad,

but in an endearing way and still be in range to potentially get their quarterback in a draft that you already like. Yes. They'll have a little bow on them. It's going to be a whole lot of like they, you know, like a 31, 26 loss. And we're like, man, see how hard those lines were competing? Man, that was fun, wasn't it? Wasn't that great? As long as the guys are, they're enjoying going to work every day.

Yep. They're still invested and they're losing enough games. Yeah. This is just chef kiss lion's season. Just went over, you know, four home games. so the home fans have fun. You know, that's what you do. I have to do at Ford Field.

Jason Light was on both of our lists here near the top five. What a turnaround. It has been for Jason Light and for the Tampa Bay Buckingham. It's the guy that traded up for a kicker. That 2016 draft is rough. Not even just trading up the kicker. Vernon Hardgraves, Noah Spence in the second round, and then they traded up for the kicker.

Since then, it is very easy to write off. Jason Lighten on a list like this and say, well, Tom Brady's great. Congratulations. You went and got, first of all, they went and got Tom Brady. A lot of other teams could have gotten Tom Brady. They assembled a roster that was good enough that Tom Brady wanted to come there. Yes. And I thought that roster was, I got receipts.

You can go to the ringer.com. When they signed Tom Brady, I was like, that team is good. That's a really good team. And then they went and they got Tristan Whirves and Anton Winfield in the draft. I was like, that team could win the Super Bowl. And they did win the Super Bowl. there are a few things associated with the drafting they did in the pre-Bradie times that I find not even just the drafting but team management they did in the pre-Bradie times that I find impressive

cap was always clean even when they were missing in the draft they never offset or they never compounded the issues in with missing in the draft by making knee-jerk moves in free agency they did not do that later on they had some his first free agent class. It's like at all time. It's like Michael Collins. You remember that? Yeah. That group. And that was all time bad. But later on, as we've gotten a little bit more recent, their cap was very clean. They did not have any of those contracts. And I thought that was those restraint to not be like, oh man, we need to go get some guys to fill those holes. Their biggest problem area was the secondary during that time. And that 2018, 2019 stretch, all of those dice rolls they took in the second, third, fourth round. at DB and they hit Jordan Whitehead, Sean Murphy Bunting, Carlton Davis,

M.J. Stewart was even a guy that they drafted that eventually became a useful player elsewhere. I mean, they really, Jamel Dean. It does always have really good jobs. I think that's what people forget. Yes. Good starters is a win. Yes. Outside the first round, I mean, but if you get a good starter, that is a win on any draft pick.

I mean, think about the other, I mean, Chris Godwin and getting him in a third round, Alie Marpet. I mean, they just did such a good job. So line drafting has been great. Their receiver drafting has been great. I mean, it's consistently, consistently year after year. And offsetting that with, I think, really shrewd moves in free agents. Like the Shaq Barrett move.

The first time they did it for $4 million, one of the best free agent signings in recent memory. 20-sack guy for four million. For what he was at that point. They've done a really, really good job. So they're drafting and how they've approached it. They're a trade-up and down team. But you have to look at what each of those actually represents. So this year's draft is a perfect example for me.

They trade down with the Jags. They get a fourth round pick to move from, I think, 27 to 33. And they get Logan Hall anyway. Okay, that's probably who they wanted to 27. They get a fourth round pick. In the second round, they move up three spots to go get Luke Gedecki. They only give up a sixth round pick to do that. they moved ahead of the Vikings who were going to draft into your offensive linemen in that spot.

So you're getting value when that's all said and done and moving up strategically and understanding why you should be doing all of that. I think they've done that pretty consistently during his time there, even if they do trade up every so often. I love this draft that you put together. Like I really do. I think they might have gotten four starters in their first four picks. I love the tight end. Kate Otten. I loved Rashad White, the runner back they drafted in the third round.

And as the fourth-round pick they picked up in that trade, by the way. And that was, yeah, and that's, I think he's going to be a bonafide wide tight end in this league. And also trained for Shaq Mason. Like, I mean, they, Shaq Mason is another one. That's what I forgot. Yeah, I mean, just all this stuff accumulates. It does.

And it's a, it's a perfect. I know we're talking about what we would do with this team, but it showed me that they have a perfect understanding of, yes, we have Tom Brady. But we also have to, you know, make sure this team's okay for life after Tom Brady. So I, I just like that. It's just tangible starters. It's not trying to just keep swinging for the fences that maybe if we get a star right here. It's like, no, let's just get solid starters that might have some upside. And that matters.

NFC is wide open. I mean, I just really, really, really like what he's done, basically, after that horror draft class or a couple rough draft classes early on. I mean, I really do think that just it speaks a guy, even like a guy of a Cameron Brate, like just finding guys like that, like tangible, tangible guys throughout the draft. That it really matters. It really does. Winfield in the second round They've just consistently found really useful players

The one big free agent contract They really handed out to an outside guy Was Ryan Jensen And think about what that's done for that Right I mean just the perfect guy to kind of reshape the feeling Of your offense and understanding what sort of presence that you need So I think that he's done a really good job

All right, your number six is Chris Bauer We'll save that because he is in my top five Yes, okay So all right five through one. All right. Lay it on me. All right.

First, number five, less need. And this is, I trouble with, with Sneed because it's, the Rams are their own thing. I mean, they live in a world that no one even comes close to. The Saints live in their world. The Rams live in their own world. But I love aggression. I love kind of, again, self-awareness, understanding what your window is, understanding what your team.

They've taken it to the extreme. But I also just moves like, I don't know, the Jalen Ramsey trade. I know you're giving up a lot. for them. But you don't get, those guys aren't on the market unless you have a top five pick, top 10 pick. And the Rams are, they're like, we're competing when Shaqvieve is our coach, because Sean McVeigh wants to compete. He's not going for young guys. So he wants to compete right now and then go work in TV. So it's understanding his, understanding his situation. So let's get the top corner in the game. He's available. Why not? These guys never come

available, especially at that age. Stuff like that. I really like the Stafford deal. Yes, it led to the glory land. And I know this is the sounds results based, but it's also. the process of understanding what their window is. Their window was, we're trying to keep this window wedged any way, type, any way we can. And I don't care what the future might behold. You know, and I like that. I like that aggression, but also understanding, okay, if we do live in this world of aggression, what else do we have to do?

We have to get really freaking good at drafting middle rounders and understanding these guys have one trade. And accumulating middle round picks, I think is the other part of this. It's not just pure aggression distilled and shot into your eyeballs. No. It's aggression offset with a patient approach at other areas of your team building process. And I know this. And I think that's crucial. Yeah.

It's understanding the repercussions of your actions. Like it's, I mean, in basketball, if you shoot a whole bunch of threes, how do the rebounds come off? Long. So it's good guys that can get the rebounds on the long rebounds. It's understanding if you play this way or you build a team this way, what are the effects of that, positive and negative. So I just like the Rams go, this is the world we live in. Okay. This is what we have to do from here.

So that, yeah. They have an approach. Yes. And they have an approach. I don't know how repicable it is. I don't know if I would trade away all those first round picks, but they have a thoughtful way that they've done this. It isn't like, yo-o, let's fucking go. That's not how this is.

And the other part of it is, I like their process with individual players that they followed. Cooper Cup is a perfect example to look at the GPS numbers at the senior bowl to not even go to the senior ball anymore. It's like, we can get the shit we need. way down. I'm not going all the way down there. Even that is, I think, commitment to a process and a commitment to a way of doing things. And they've done that. And I do

think that they've gotten a couple breaks along the way and having Aaron Donald is a really nice part of this. A lot of that. I think Sean McVeigh is a huge influence on what that team is. I think that some of their mistakes have been overshadowed because they have a coach like that the same way San Francisco has. Too, too, at well.

Yeah. There are plenty of those. Every team has those. But I think that you can see what their vision is, and I appreciate that they have one, and it's a thoughtful one. They have looked at what, all right, do, can we find an inefficiency here? Can we find one here? What if we do it a little bit differently here? I think that willingness to be different, even if it were to take a different form later on. Yeah. The ability and just guts it takes to embrace a mindset like that, I think it can take different forms as the league shifts and changes. That's what I want. I want somebody who's going to be willing to think about things a little bit. differently. And that's exactly what he's been willing to do. He was number four for me.

Okay. Yeah. Well, just you have to have confidence to think. Yes. Anyone can think different in theory and, you know, we all have grandiose ideas about, oh, if I was doing this, but the fact that you just commit to it and continue to commit to it, they haven't blinked. They haven't got, maybe this wasn't the right decision. Maybe we should start, you know, reshuffling everybody. I don't think Sean McVeigh would allow them to, but it's also, but I also think it's just, I like that. I just really have liked that they understood the after effects of what this approach does. And it's like, okay, so how do we have to look at prospects? How do we have to look at the draft?

How do we have to look at free agents? This world that they've built, like what is the, you know, the canon in that world. So I like that. And so it's funny because Brad Holmes came from the Rams with the Lions and his, he's got a totally different approach. So it's not like he's just going, I think that speaks to maybe with less need, just going, this is our world and now this is our sandbox how do we play in it please number four for you howie roseman who i i i sniped up there four why you why you smiling i was i thought it was going to be

crazy for me to put him at five okay and so i have him at five i have him let's so keep going three years and we'll talk about how when we start mine uh number three brine gutakuntz for the packers okay nicely done that was very smooth by you just say goody he's good that's Well, that's what I want to call. But then I was like, oh, I have to actually say this. It's like, yeah. And then my one two is almost like a one A, one B. But I went two, I went Brandon Bean.

And then one, I went Eric Dacosta for the Ravens. I really, I really wished this was going to be the moment where we had a bunch of different shit we could argue about. And it's pretty much the same. All right. So at five, I had Howie Rose. Okay. Four, less neat. Okay.

Three, I had Chris Bauer, which we can argue about if we want to. Two, I had Eric Dacosta. And one, I had Brandon B. Yeah. Okay. So I want to hear your reasoning for why Howie Roseman is in your top five. Oh, man. Acid accumulation.

That is, okay, that's cut in dry, my number one, because as a talent evaluator, it costs some hesitancy for me. I'm not going to lie. If you asked me this question two years ago, Howie. probably wouldn't make my top 10. And I think just this past two-ish years, I've really, two years ago, he was like, two years ago would have been bad, but like four years ago, he was removed from just winning a Super Bowl. Yeah, I know. It's, yeah, so yeah, two years ago. Yeah, it's, that's how we, I guess, because that draft record from 2016, there have been some ups and downs. So if we were looking at the entire body of work, I could understand him being a

little bit lower here. But the process stuff is why I have him higher on my list. I think he's learned some lessons. And I absolutely. That's. That's where I'm, you know, that's where I'm like more optimistic, glass-hatful with him. But yeah, just finding hidden margins and trades. I love how he goes about free agency as far as, you know, finding guys for certain deals. Jordan Maillado, like, like sign, that's a free agency, but signing guys early. So you can, you know, it's more rewarding down the road when that contract hits in. They've consistently done that.

Yes. And that, it's like just a, it shouldn't be a hidden margin, but it really is because NFL teams kind of right. are hesitant to do that. And that's trusting yourself on self-evaluation, which I think is so important as well. But yeah, I just, that's really what it is for me is I like that. I like the aggressiveness, the red paper clip of finding trades and just finding more assets to find, understanding the stuff with the cap, even though they were in cap hell, but how they've navigated out of that. I just like the plan that they put together. And like you said, there's ebbs and flows with his career. So I'm basing this more off of the glass half full from maybe the last two Cs.

seasons that he's kind of gotten out of the muck that he put himself in. So that's kind of the funny part about it. That's part of it. Yeah. Getting what they did for Carson Wentz is amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah.

But they also created that problem for themselves. There's been plenty of that. I just love how aggressive they are without being, without leveraging themselves and making their team better. Yeah. He is just always going to look. How can my team be better tomorrow? They never play themselves.

their self-evaluation is very, very good, I think. The evaluations of individual players have been rough. That aspect of it has been rough at times. The J.1 Rager's and the J.J. Erthega, I think, a white side's, and all of that. And, I mean, Andre Diller doesn't miss in the first round. There have been plenty of those. But a lot of teams have those stretches where they draft like shit.

I mean, there was a draft right in the middle of that where they got Dallas Goddard, Devante Maddox, Josh Sweat, and Jordan Milana. That was their draft. That's a pretty good draft. That's a pretty good haul of guys. I think drafting is probably going to come back close to even. Over time, it probably is. So what does the other stuff look like?

And to me, the other stuff, trading first round pick for AJ Brown, I'm in, man. I liked it. I have 25-year-old AJ Brown for a contract that is fairly reasonable when you actually look at the realities of it. Like the average is inflated because of what that final year is. Always have to remember his age and the other guys get these deals. That is like- And they traded less to get him. Yes.

I mean. They traded less to get. get him. And that contract, it's not as bad. You still have the one cheap year that you're going to get him for like $2 million. And then that final year of his deal, there's no way he plays on that. So that contract actually looks pretty good when you dig into the nitty gritty of it. The Darius Slay trade. To give up a third round pick and a fifth round pick for Darius Slay. Going to get James Bradbury, what they just did. What happened with Milata? There are a lot of success stories about player acquisition on this team. You can't look at a

roster like the Eagles, it's pretty darn good and not appreciate the ways they've accumulated the players. And it's not like they're trading up for guys all the time. They do it. They pick their spots. They trade it up for Jordan Davis. But the Jordan Davis part of it also leads me to something that I like. They're going to build up front.

They're going to build the lines. And even though how he's not a football guy, he believes in that. And that it infiltrates their decision making and their process is all over the place. and they have certain values that I appreciate. It's going to be an offense first team. They have offensive-minded head coach. He's going to call the plays. That is going to be a guiding principle of the way that Howie wants to do business,

and I tend to agree with that. I also am impressed with the amount of people they've pumped out of that front office. The amount of guys, Joe Douglas is and the Andrew Barry's and the Kathleen Reiches, and, I mean, they've people that other people want, people want to go get and want to be part of their organizations and work for the Eagles. It might be people not wanting to work there anymore, but they have developed a lot of executives. And I think that that is something worth looking at. So a lot of different reasons.

And I just think the pivot points. Yeah. Just the flexibility that they've given themselves and the thoughtfulness about do we zig where other people is at. And he's a divisive figure. There's no way around that. And I understand why he is. But if we were just starting from scratch and talking about how I'd want somebody to run the team day to day, If I, all right, here's all the money in the world.

Like you can have all the cash. There's nothing stopping you resource-wise. That's essentially what it's been in Philadelphia. Yeah. Because Jeffrey Lurie is not willing to throw the money around. He's not hesitant to throw the money around. It's looked pretty good. I can get on board with a lot of the things they've done outside of individual draftics.

It's a good insight of not doing stuff just because. They don't, they don't just do stuff just because. Just because. Like, why did you do that? Ah, just cuss. Like that guy was available. Everything. there's a plan for everything.

Sometimes it doesn't lead to success, but sometimes it does. And I don't know. I appreciate that. It's funny how in this world where these guys are making millions and millions of dollars that were just like applauding just reasonableness in organization skills. But sometimes that's enough. Here we are. Here we are.

Sometimes that's enough. All right. You had Ballard at six. Yes. Okay. Why is he a little bit lower for you than he probably is for me? I love, again, another guy understands assets, understand. understands what the draft is with coin flips understands to be patient sometimes i want him to fucking

plan his foot and do something like that that is that's my only negative with him so maybe just light a fire under him uh but other than that but i mean the wince thing we were we were talking about with howie he got out of it and that that's like he should get a feather in his cap yes he should get knocked down for trade for it but then getting out of it he did listen to his head coach like that is something too they was trying to communicate he was trying to have a plan as well i like just how they have a type at receiver. They have a type at certain positions. They also go for bigger athletes as well.

Traits, maybe. It's going to be traits, traits, traits all the time. But guys that can actually play, not just like true guy. Like, that's a whole other argument. But it's, I do like that all that. I do, I do like the patience. I'm kind of saying both sides of it. I do like having patience and having like not, we have all this money to spend.

We don't just have to spend it all at once. It's understanding that guys are going to come up that we do want to pay, that you never know when that next situation where you can find a guy is going to come up. So I do like always having that kind of the back of your, you know, in your back pocket. But I would say why I have him maybe a little lower is that sometimes I just want him to just, you know, strike. And I think the Matt Ryan trade was fantastic. And I think they put himself in a position by being patient and getting that. So yeah, kind of talking about both sides of my mouth.

But that's why he's at six for me. I do get frustrated by how meticulous it can be. times. I do. I also know my own wiring. If I were picking a general manager as someone who always wants it all the time immediately, having somebody, it's like, slow down. Slow down.

And he just sits right here all the time. You guys can't see my hand, but I'm making like the steady sign. He is just steady all of the time. And that has drawbacks. There are times where I wish, just go get somebody. It's okay to make like, one semi-flashy free agent signing. But think about the guys they got this off-season.

Trading for Yonik and Gokwe, going to get Stefan Gilmore. Those guys aren't superstars. But the ways that they went to get them and just how patient and not, again, leveraging themselves to go get guys like that. And I just really, really appreciate how committed they are to the ways that they see this stuff. And just the self-awareness when it comes to the draft that we are going to accumulate draft picks. going to pick players with traits. That is how we are going to do this thing. And they've gotten a lot of really good players as a result of that.

The one thing outside of the patience part of this that would frustrate me, I do think his view of receivers is not the same one than I have. That is the one position where it's like, I just want you to care about this a little bit more. That's it. That's really the only spot. Outside of that, I can get on board with the way they value guys. Even though I think people frame them finding all these stars at non-high-value positions as they don't value the high-end positions.

Yeah, I don't think that's right. Yeah. I just don't think they've found guys at those spots. He's drafted a million pass rushers. None of them have hit. That's been the problem. It's not valuing those spots. I mean, Michael Pittman was top 35 pick.

You know, I mean, they've gotten, they went out to get those. guys. Paris Campbell was a second round pick. I just don't think they've hit in the same way on those high value positions as they have on what we call some like the secondary positions. The non-premium positions. Yeah, non-premium. That's the word I was looking for. But I do, I just, I'd rather hit on them than not. It's just like much rather than having it. Sitting there and just letting it come to you. There is such a value in that. Not beating yourself. There is such value in that. And I want to believe that. that if they would ever get the quarterback.

And I want to believe that. If they would ever get the quarterback, would there be a tiny bit more aggressiveness? Where it's like, all right, we're going to push now. Yeah. Like, we are going to push now. If they, a year from now, two years from now, after they move on from now, Ryan,

and they get a guy in the draft, or they go get a guy in the draft. Does that kind of change things? Because they've made aggressive moves. The DeForest Buckner trade is an aggressive move. And so is it just that they, if there are more spots that would be conducive to them doing it, would they do it a little bit more often?

Because he is steadfast than this. He has said this to me. He has said this to a million people. I'm not going to pay A plus prices for B players. And he's just not going to do it. And he's never done it. And for the most part, diving into free agency in that way is a bad thing. But I do not think that they have weaponized free agency in the smart ways that other teams have.

Yeah. You don't want to build the whole boat out of it. But you can have like a sale or an ore. Yes, when your sale is broken, go get a new one. Yeah, exactly. Don't just get a smaller sale that also has a hole in it. So, Brian Guguns was seven for me, and I'll explain why. The Aaron Rogers side of this is difficult.

We talk about coaches and their influence on things. Having that quarterback at the centerpiece of all of this makes a lot of stuff look good. That quarterback. That exactly. Having that quarterback makes a lot of stuff look good. That being said. I talk about process. The way they've built this thing and some of the ways they've found players

and the lot of really good players they've found is undeniably impressive. I easily could have been in my top five. You easily could have knocked a couple other guys around. I just think that the Roger side of this, and again, a little bit lack of aggressiveness at certain spots, that's what knocked him down a little bit to me. But again, you could have flipped him in Ballard even. I mean, it's just, I, did Devonra Campbell sign?

Yeah. even go in to get a guy like Dennis Kelly for depth last year, like smart little signings all over the place. The first draft that they had. The first draft that he had, they were at 14, okay? They trade back with the Saints. They get an extra first round pick and they're now at 27. They go back up to 18,

and all they have to do to go back up to 18 is give up a third round pick. So they get a future first and they give up a third to move back four spots. And they get Jaya Alexander with that pick. And then they get an extra first the next year to pick. Garna L Savage. Yeah. Like that's chess. That, yes, yes.

That is getting a lot of swings of the bat and also connecting those swings of the bat. Well, that's why I like him is the, just going off of that is all the first rounders. I mean, Jaya Alexander, Rishon Gary, we both think is going to really emerge. He had a great second half of last year. I think I'm optimistic on Eric Stokes. I'm optimistic. Already a useful player. Already.

I think at minimum, he's a good number two. And it might just be like a real, real, real. good player. And on top of that, you know, they, they, it's the Packers. So, you know, obviously he's been ingrained in that line of thinking. So they, the Packers, we're going to talk about mode and all the, like, the, what sandbox all these teams play in. The Packers are going to do what the Packers do. They are at their own pace for everything. They're not going to take that receiver in the first round. So I actually do appreciate maybe, I want to say patience, but maybe just holding the, holding their ground, drafting the two defensive guys in the first round this year from Georgia.

handling the personalities also like Aaron Rogers. It's a big part of it. I mean, he did not budge last year. He let Aaron Rogers throw that hissy fit. And every time he did an interview, he was cool, calm, never got into it. That matters too. You're a face. Yeah, it's really impressive.

Yes. And also he had one head coach hire. And it was one that I was maybe a little lukewarm on when it happened. Matt Lefore has been a huge home run swing. I think just in handling Molly Rogers, putting him with the office. offense, the staff that he put around, what he's done with the defense now and just kind of adjusting and not just holding steady there. All those types of moves added up.

Also finding guys outside the first round, Elginz Jenkins, MVS. I mean, those guys are useful players. They might not be, well, Jenkins is. That first draft. Same draft that made those moves for Jair. Yeah, I know. NBS isn't like the star number two everyone wants. He's a good, useful player that they found in the six rounds.

They continue to do that. Even a little letting Corey Winsley go. Yeah. And drafting Josh Myers in the second round. And just continuing to do it that way. There have been moves they made. I mean, I think the AJ Dylan pick now, you look at what he is for that offense and what that offense is going to need to be. He's going to have a huge year, by the way.

I actually am very okay with it. But then you combine that with Aaron Jones contract and just some of the financial stuff they've deal with. But when you have so many good players, I mean, that becomes difficult. Aaron Jones is an amazing person, like not signing him and the message that sends. And there's just so many different things to consider there. Yes. I easily could have had him higher. I just, well, and the Jordan left can't, can't, we have to mention it.

Yeah, I mean, but I, that part of that's not even the reason. I just think that it's, you could say I'm talking on both sides of my mouth, the patients with Ballard and with him. Ballard didn't have, he doesn't have Aaron Rogers. Yeah, he doesn't. Like, it doesn't have Aaron Rogers to like help keep things to float. I just, it's difficult to know how that, how that patient approach works if Aaron Rogers isn't there. I think it'd be fine.

I think they found a lot of really good players. But it's just that Roger's side of it. It's so, it's why I can't properly appreciate LaFleurr. It's just, it's difficult for me to extricate those things. And I fully admit that. And I fully admit he could be higher on this list.

I know. That's a hard part about this. It's hard part about giving credit. All right. You had to Costa at one. Yeah. This is hard. This was hard.

But I, I'm good with these guys as my one, too. That was like, that was not even a question. First two names I wrote down and I was trying to look for other names to usurp them. And, yeah, it couldn't really come up with anything. So here's, let me play devil's advocate. Yeah, yeah.

Eric Takas, because we had the same fucking list. All right. The drafts have not been that impressive since he took over. Yeah. Okay. So if you look at his draft picks and if we're trying to separate him from Ozzie Newsom, all right, his draft picks. 2016. 2019, you pick Marquis Brown in the first round.

This is his first pick. Other picks that year, Jalen Ferguson, Miles Boykin, Justice Hill, Ben Powers. They have like 24th round picks, not surprising. 2020, Patrick Queen in the first round, J.K. Dobbins in the second round. Neither of those have been hugely successful. Really no stars found after that. I mean, Madibuque has been a useful player. Devin, I think will play a lot for them this year.

They had four third round picks. That's unbelievable. Every time you look at these. 2021 they trade Orlando Brown they get two first round picks Rashad Bateman Adafio I think we're excited about both of those guys and what they could be but it's not like they're superstars right now so that those are the drafts and before this year's draft and this year's draft for as much as we liked it in the moment you don't know it's important to remember there are a lot of drafts that we've liked in the moment that have not looked good later on

so I appreciate the way they approached this draft and I think that is why he's so high on both of our list because I appreciate the way they approach everything. The way they do business is the way I would want to do business. And that is why he's number two on my list and I assume number one on yours. That's exactly it. It's all processed with them. Some of these guys, yeah, it wasn't great. Like what those picks turned out to be.

But man, it's just given all those opportunities and just all we talk about patients and maybe not even just long term patients, but. just, I think with them is just, you know, day in, day out, always trying to find ways to to make the team better, whether that is, okay, what's not signed some free agents, so we have the comp picks. Let's move back in the draft so we get more picks. What's just, also, and this might be Harbaugh, but also I'm going to give some credit, credit just to the Ravens organization too, is always just trying to maybe change up their

offense or defense to move on and where the league is shifting. and finding all those types of things and what might be the next step. I also have to give some credit to the GM there because he's going to have a say on that. I mean, they have to sign off on those moves and those personnel moves for the coaches. So those types of things, it's all processed.

And I think that's why he's number one on my list. Yeah, some of the picks, like even when they took like Hollywood Brown back then in 2019, I hated it then because it's a smaller receiver. I'm never going to like that, especially in the first round. So, yeah, some of those things, you know, maybe take a first round pick for him. I know. I mean, it's not really a first-round pick.

We keep saying that. They gave up a pick in the process, but they still got an extra first-rounder as part of that trade. And I get it. It's that no one's perfect. They had Lamar Jackson. They're all excited. We got to give them some weapons down the road or, you know, to throw to. And, you know, maybe it just didn't turn out how they hoped.

No panic. None. No panic. And their offensive line last year, okay, they trade away Orlando Brown. They get the extra first as part of the Orlando Brown trade. offensive line looks bad. Ronnie Stanley gets hurt. Villanueva is near the end of it.

You have a rotating cast at a bunch of different positions. I think, man, that's a disaster. I've had to watch a lot of it in the last few days. Look at it now. So they get that pick for Orlando Brown. They sign Morgan Moses for next to nothing while having that extra pick in the Brown trade. They draft fall away away is potentially a developmental replacement for Morgan Moses a year or two years from now. They have Kevin Zeiler, who they signed last year, not in traditional free agency.

he was released so it doesn't affect the compact formula. They have Tyler and the bomb and they just got Ronnie Stanley back. That off the line could be good. It was a disaster last year. It could be good. And now that's not even considering the fact that they have Oway as part of this overall equation from the Orlando Brown train. So it's a two-year thing.

I'm sorry, when you look at like there are Lads page, you look at the depth chart and then the backup offense line where all the guys they drafted because that meant they're trying to accumulate depth. Yeah, you want those guys to start, but it's not bad. You don't want to see, you look at the Bears page, you see CF, you know, college free agent, CF, CF, CF, as opposed to bring that up. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. But here you see Ben Cleveland might be their backup card.

He was a third round pick. You know, like, it's just depth, depth matters. They're, that's why they're able to withstand so many injuries last year is, yeah, they had to sign guys off the street, but they at least had enough tangible players to kind of carry him through some weeks. And they've been aggressive. Yeah. even though they're really patient and thoughtful with the way that they go about the draft and accumulating all those picks, they went out traded for Marcus Peters. They gave Marcus Williams that contract this year.

They're not afraid to go do that every once in a while. And I think that aggressiveness and just not even just aggressive, proactive. Proactive. How proactive they are with some of these moves. The Brown trade is a proactive trade, both Brown trades. The Orlando and Hollywood Brown trades are proactive. And I appreciate that. There's just.

Callais Campbell. They're constantly trying to figure out how can we get better and how can we maximize our opportunities here? They're analytically driven in a way that I appreciate. I mean, just, again, the results so far, he has not been as successful in the draft and with the players that they've hit on. But if I'm going to pick a guy to run it day to day,

I would pick a guy. I mean, he is of the Ravens. He's worked there since 1996. He was raised in that organization. He was picked as Ozzie News's success for, what, five, seven years before he ultimately stepped away. I mean, this is a guy who has been groomed to have this job for a long time for a reason because I think he firmly believes in a lot of the tenants of that organization and the way that they've done business. And it's the way that I would want to. And I know fans of other teams sometimes get frustrated that the praise that we heap on the Ravens and sometimes, yeah, yeah, we might go overboard.

with it. But the process, that's what we want to keep talking about. And this is almost like quarterback play. It's process driven, as opposed to results driven. It's like, yeah, it might be a little lukewarm right now. But so many things that the Ravens do, you understand why they did it. It's not like a squint and go, yeah, okay, I can see that. It's so much that's easily you look at and go, okay, that makes sense, why you did that. And that's a guy that I would want handling my team, where it's finding any edge that you can, but having enough, you know, real football background to kind of like, take advantage of that, if that makes sense. And understanding where the league landscape is,

I think a lot of teams and a lot of decision makers will get in their own bubble. And I think we all do this. If you're just covering one team, if you just follow one team, you can get your own bubble. Now imagine being in charge of that. I always thought that the Ravens had such an awareness of where the NFL landscape was. And I think that just starts at the top. And that's why I know we're going to talk about this next guy, who I think is the exact same way, has that same mindset.

But I just think that's such a quality to have. why is Brandon B. number two for you? Man, this was, I know, now I've talked it out because I don't know. I really, really like what Bean is done just with everything. They're the model.

They are. I mean, it's like point blank, they are the model for how to do this right now. I've really, it's just not too much. They've traded up a few times in the draft in ways that probably were not smart. Yeah. And their first round picks have not been home runs so far.

Yeah. Even when they were picking a little bit higher. You know, Ed Oliver is a fine player, but he's not a superstar by any stretch. The guys they've gotten in the draft have often failed to turn into stars, a star-level players during his tenure. That's really, that and the trades up are like the only things you can really criticize. Yeah, because, again, we're talking about awareness.

And this is another guy. Well, okay, when they came in and we talked about the podcast yesterday was with Mike, Sando. By the way, Josh Allen is an exception to that. Josh Allen is like an uper-duber star. But you move up for quarterbacks. That's the one position you can do it. Move up for quarterbacks. That's fine with me.

That's fine. You can always argue. The maneuvering they did to go get him. Yeah. And the way that they've developed him and they surrounded him, we can get into all that. Josh Allen goes on. Moving up for Cody Ford is different to me than moving up for Josh Allen. Josh Allen goes to 25 other teams.

He's a bust. Like, I mean, seriously, that's what it feels like. That's credit to what the bills put around them. Again, self-awareness, so understanding what their team was, you talked about when they had to eat their vegetables on the podcast with Sandow and had the year where they had the dead cap year. And okay, we don't know what exactly what we are. but that came out of it.

That was a plan. That was a process. Even like little small stuff like this year, like getting a retread like OJ Howard, like that's kind of nice. Roger Saffold, like just these guys are, you know, little tiny deals,

but then also having vets that on maybe a longer term deal like a Jordan poyer or Micah Hyde and get rewarded with good play. I think it's just, it speaks to pro scouting and what their pro department is. And again, this is understanding what the NFL landscape is. It's understanding what skills these guys have. and how can we use them?

Wow, our defense runs a lot of quarters. Well, let's get a couple safeties that are pretty good in quarters. And it's just understanding that. It's not square peg round holeing it. I think there's so many GMs and decision makers that take the coaching influence, yes, but they don't understand how to utilize that. I think Bean and McDermott and their staffs and just the staff that they have understands, hey, we like this type of guy and this is why.

All right, can you find guys that are good for us, either in the draft or in the free agency? and I think they do a great job with that. And, I mean, they've hit on some nice picks like Tredavius White was a good pick, got like Matt Mulano. I mean, of course. Dionne Dawkins. Deacon's,

tackle in the second round, the way that they did is a really nice pick. I mean, even like, I mean, Wyatt Teller letting him go was a mistake. I mean, that's really one of the only other mistakes. But Toron Johnson's been a useful player for them in the slot. You know, Dawson Knox was really good for them last year. Really improved. Gabe Davis looks incredible. I mean, another really good find for them.

And what I did. Oh, real quick. Sorry, but look at their de-wined. And yes, yes, they didn't have those stars. But the fact that they could go too deep at every spot, that speaks. Look how different it is now. Yeah. That's what I like is that we're talking about being proactive.

Yep. They're willingness to churn areas of this roster and like, how can we get this much better? Just little, little tiny things. How can we go from above average to good or average to above average? Find one more guy here. Like swap out. this for that. I love that. And they've done that so consistently on the offensive line, on the defensive line, at receiver, they've been willing to go through guys. I mean, the guys

that started this whole thing in 2019, when they signed John Brown and Cole Beasley, great, like exactly what you should do at that point. Mid-tier free agents, guys making six, seven million bucks a year that can help foster the development. The type of guys, the Jaguar should go after. They're not there anymore. Yep. Those guys are no longer there. Now it's Gabe Davis, Stefan Diggs, who they got at the right time sequencing of who they wanted to be, got him while he was on a contract that he had signed. So he was relatively cheap for the first two years they had him on the team, just all that kinds of stuff. And I mean, the Stavon Diggs trade happens at the same time as the DeAndre Hopkins trade, where he goes for a little bit more, but DeAndre Hopkins makes a deal that people are still pissed about. And that was right as that Jamal Adams type trade was happening, where he went for two first drop jokes.

To get Diggs for one first round pick and then a little bit of change and have him be on a contract where you can absolutely live with it. You don't have to worry about signing him to an extension immediately. That's an incredible deal. And they've remade what their skill position players look like now. They went out and got James Cook in the second round. He's going to be a nice little piece for them in whatever pass catching role he's going to fill. The amount of dice rolls they've taken along the offensive line, the way they've weaponized free agency but never spent big in free agency. that's what I like except now.

So I understand. They understand their window in this moment. And that's what, where does it come in the sequence of who you're trying to be? And I think that they stretch themselves a little thin with the Von Riller deal. But it's like, you know what? I gotta go for it at some point.

It's like at some point we got to see if we can get ourselves over the top. And if they're willing to, the owners are willing to spend the money and we could put 10 void years on the end of it and whatever. Let's go for it. And that's what they did. It's not theory. And I think it's not like, oh, man, maybe down the road this guy will come available and we'll strike then. It's like, screw it.

We have an opportunity right now. Let's go for it. It's understanding the window. It's self-awareness. It's so much of the like those free agency signings, especially when they first got in there, that speaks to, again, understanding of the league because it's easy to go, oh, well, these are the three big money guys. Finding the middle class guys that are not just like just cannon fodder and our actual tangible starters, like that, that takes effort. because you have to watch a lot of guys. We do our free agency show.

We're wiped when we do it. Now imagine doing the scouting, being in charge of a scouting department, actually you have to negotiate these deals. So I think that speaks to them. And again, understanding the league and watching these teams and watching these guys on other teams and going, like, okay, if that guy comes available, give him the right price, he can start for us. Or he can be our backup guard or he can be our rotational end. He could be our, you know, nickel corner or safety.

Like understanding that, it really just speaks to him and also the pro. scout staff that they have. Shaq Lawson is third on their edge debt chart right now. Good start for teams. Yeah. That's funny. That's what this team is right now. Yeah.

Yeah. He signed a three-year, $30 million deal two years ago. And now he's third on their depth chart. Yeah, I mean, it's, they have a lot of really one year, one point two million. Obviously, there's a reason for that. But at the same time, it's like, they're not signing him to do that three-year, $30 million deal. No. So I just it's really hard to argue with how they've done this and finding Alan and putting the right pieces around him and again just figuring out what the support system needed to look like along the offensive line and then the receiving core to bring him along.

It's it's one of there's a reason that they're the success story of the last three or four years. There's a reason for a lot of these guys we've talked about oh they they went through a rebuild or understanding patience or they understood that when to be aggressive. What's cool with Bean and McDermott and what the bills have done, we've gotten to see both already. We got to see the rebuilding process. And now we're seeing the contender mode and what they do in contender mode, which is cool. We're talking about how Bauer's so patient.

So we've gotten to see that mode. What does he look like an aggressive mode? So it's kind of cool to see what Bean does in aggression mode. And so far it's been pretty cool. All right. I'm sure no one will have thoughts about this list. None. None.

None whatsoever. That was really fun. It was. Really fun and also just useful. Yeah. I think really telling and I think you learn a lot when you think about it in this way. So I'm very glad that we did that. I agree.

I agree. It's also fun just looking back and going like, wow, we've had a lot of new GMs in the last year. Yeah. I mean, there's not that many you can pick from that have been there for multiple years. I mean, it's really like 16 guys that you can. And then Kevin Colbert's gone now. I mean, a lot of different things to consider. So that was great.

Really appreciate. you guys taking the time to listen. Please rate interview the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I'd really appreciate if you did that. Please subscribe to the athletic.com slash football show. What do you write right now? I am writing about Lamar Jackson and the Ravens Passing game a little bit. Well, guess what?

We're going to talk about Lamar Jackson next week on the podcast. So it's all working. If you're listening to Friday, it will be coming out the day that you're listening to this or hopefully listening to this unless you're listening on the weekend. So please check out Nate's piece about Lamar Jackson, on Theathletic.com slash football show is where you can read about that. We will be back next Tuesday with our next mailbag.

Shil Kapati is going to be joining us. I'm very excited about that. In the meantime, please enjoy your weekend. I don't know if it's nice by you. It's really nice by me. I'm very excited to get outside. I'm going to do some yard work today. Oh, man.

Getting old. Looking forward to yard work. That's where we're at. Got any new appliances? Any new tools? No, no, no tools. I'm using my power washer today. So I am looking forward to that.

I'm using some tools. I didn't get any new ones for this. Yeah. I learned last week that my wife had a power washing attachment for our hose. Because I was like, man, I'm really going to start power. I'm going to go to Home Depot again. She's like, I have one. It's like I've just been staring at it for months without even realizing the tools I have.

We're putting the roof deck furniture. Ah, guys. Putting the cushions on today and all that stuff. Probably could happen when we were gone. It was nice enough. But we've been gone for like 10 days. So it's time. I'm very excited to do that.

All right, guys, enjoy your weekend. We'll be back on Tuesday. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.