The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Scheme trends shaping the 2021 season with PFF's Seth Galina and Diante Lee

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

Which schemes have defined the 2021 NFL season through the first seven weeks? Robert Mays sits down with PFF’s Diante Lee and Seth Galina to examine the trends on offense and defense. They discuss what they numbers tell us, what has been the biggest surprise and much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show is presented by State Farm, because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today is Wednesday, October 27th. Really excited about today's show. Mitchell Schwartz is actually going to be joining us tomorrow on Thursday after we chat with Lindsay because I wanted to let the rest of this show breathe. This is one that I have been excited about doing.

two guys that I listen to talk about football all the time, two of my favorite people talking, writing about the sport right now, both from PFF, Seth Galena and Deante Lee, the hosts of the Too High podcast. Guys, thank you very much for doing this. Just want to make clear it's not a weed podcast. It's a football podcast,

just for our listeners who maybe haven't heard. Your effect might cause people to question that. And I will also say that you can tell if you ever listen to ours, the difference in polish, because we could never get throwing intro that cleanly the way that you just did. I've been doing this for, this is my 12th, 11th year podcasting. I listen to you and you and Bill back in the Grantland days.

My first podcast that I ever did was called The Trenches Podcast. And it was with Ephraim Salam. And it was in, I think, 2011. And here's how it worked in 2011 if you want to start podcasting. David Jacoby, who of Jalen and Jacoby fame. he ran the podcast network at Groundland or what was an infant podcast network at the time. I was 23 years old. I was, I think my official title was associate editor.

Like that's what was on my checks. But it was my actual title was small and doesn't get paid enough to live in Los Angeles and is 23. That was my job. And he came to me and said, do you want to have a podcast? And I was like, sure, I'll have a podcast. And that's how I got a podcast. And now I've had one for 11 years in various different iterations. So that's how long I've been doing this.

So if I can't get through an intro cleanly, then I probably need to find a new light of work. All right. Well, then that means I got 10 more years to work on my intros. So here's what we're doing today. I wanted to do something with you guys that we did a little bit with Deiante this offseason. I wanted to talk about trends throughout the league. We're seven weeks into the season.

And I think this is enough data, enough of a sample size, for us to take what's happening schematically throughout the league and find a couple notable trends or ideas that have taken hold and kind of shape the NFL over the first two months. You guys do this to great effect on your show. If you guys are not listening to The Too High Podcasts on PFF, I highly recommend it. It's one of my favorite football listens because you get to hear some of these big picture conversations about what certain offensive and defensive schemes mean, why they're successful,

why they're not. So you guys, the eye you watch it with, I thought could lend to a conversation about, some of the overarching aspects of what the NFL season has looked like so far. Where I wanted to start was with two high defenses. There was so much ink and so many just hours of podcasts spilled, mostly by me, over the last six months about this idea. You guys do a ton of it. But for me, it was my brand this offseason.

I wrote about it. I talked to all of those guys about it. What the success that the Rams had last year, what impact that would have. on the league. If there weren't more too high defenses this year than they were last year, I think I might have to find something else to do with my life. Thankfully, so far,

it has been a thing. You guys dug up the information for me today, which I very much appreciate. You have access to cool shit that I don't. Through seven weeks of last season, teams used a too high shell. So this is different than running cover two, cover four.

This is pre-snaps shell, just for people that understand the difference there. Teams used a too high shell last year through the first seven weeks on 6,257 plays. This year, it's been 7,132 plays. 900 more plays over the first seven weeks. That's a jump of about 14%. It's a huge jump. It represents a real shift in the league.

DeAte, when you're thinking about the way that the move toward Too High has looked so far this season and what you anticipated is that the move. Is this the version of its growth and adoption that you thought you would see? Yeah, I think especially in the context of the conversation that you, me, and Nate had a couple of months ago before the season started, which was the idea of the early down passing game really becoming more and more prevalent in the NFL and the way the teams were able to get to second and one, second and two, or turning first downs into first downs, and having to have an answer for that. And I figured that, you know, the data, the data is supported for a while now that playing the pass on first down is probably going to yield you better returns unless you're dealing with, you know, a very particular kind of offense.

Like I'm thinking Gary Kubiak and Kevin Stafansky, Minnesota, right, where they're going to be in 12 and 13 personnel in trying to, you know, run the ball down your throat. So I was expecting it, but I think like I said before we started the show, the degree to which not only from last year to this year, but when you stretch it out over like a three or four year. average. That's what really blew me away. So it's been pretty clear to see that not only, you know, when we talked about the three, four stuff, that is obviously proliferated more, as more guys off of like the big tangio tree have been hired as defensive coordinators and head coaches. But the two high stuff that works so well for, you know, Wade Phillips and Brandon Staley and big fan geo, I think it's just becoming clear now that you just can't, you can't always give offenses the answers. That's been a common.

theme for Seth and I is there are certain ways where you play defense that just require you to have better players of a better play call all the time. And I think just playing with the too high shell more often gives you a little bit more of the multiplicity you need to be a moving target defensively. How have you seen that, Seth? How have you seen that moving target start to exist with more teams playing out of that shell just over the course of the entire week? You know, I think one of the things is that football is always going to be cyclical. And it's never, these things never happen in a vacuum. So we always have to look back and say, okay, well, why? Because we were in a one high league for quite a while because the Seahawks were doing it. The Seahawks were, I don't know if you

guys know this, we're very good on defense for quite a few years. So that's the type of defense that proliferates the league because, you know, for a million different reasons why defense has spread, you know, coaches spread, and then just good defenses are going to get looked at and tried to be copied. So we were in that. that era, and I think football changes so quickly now, schematically, certainly at the college and high school level, and I think even at the NFL level, because of access to information. People can just watch and, like I said, especially at college and high school where you can just go and find, oh, this is a really cool thing that some guy across the country is doing.

So like that, it's the access to information means the spread of information is, is quicker. So we were in this, you know, one high Legion of Boom style defense for five, six years or however long it was. And now we're already seeing offenses say, hey, we know how to beat this now. Like it happened very quickly that we're like, we get it now. Shanahan tree. And we can even say the Mike Shanahan tree was a big reason for that coming to McVeigh and his son. And then Kubiak was with Mike Shanahan and Stephansky.

Which is now, Stefanski. I mean, it starts to, you see. start to roll downhill. All the flurs. So like, you know, we were seeing that and it's like, okay, well, this is, this is, this is our, our answer to all this Legion of Boom type stuff. And then the other answer, the other thing is just like, well, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas and Bobby Wagner and Kijer right don't grow on trees either.

They're not walking through that door. Yeah. So like, so we have to see like, okay, we were there. So it's like almost unsurprising that, that it's, was going to happen. that we were going to go away from a one high shell to more of a too high shell. I think what's been crazy is how fast. And yeah, I just said it. Like it's better information is quick now.

But it's still crazy to me how fast we went from, oh, this is not really a thing. And then Brandon Staley did it. And now everyone's kind of got to do it now because this is just, oh, it works. So for me, it's more the speed rather than it actually happening. Because something was going to happen. whether it was going to be a shift to what we're seeing now, which is a lot of two high shells pre-snap, or maybe it was going to be a shift to three high like we're seeing in college.

Like something was going to happen. So I knew that, but I'm just surprised by how fast it happened. So obviously every single choice you make schematically, especially in defense in the NFL, there's a sacrifice being made. You can't do everything at once. If you're going to try to use your resources in one area, it's going to leave you vulnerable in another area. And the question with this kind of style of playing all of this too high in the NFL was, well, how are you going to stop the run?

And the Rams did such a good job of it last year. You know, they played with more light boxes than any other team in the league, but they were still a top five run defense, any efficiency metric you want to throw out there. It helps me of Aaron Donald, but they did a lot of stuff where they would steal back gaps. We've talked about it at nauseam on this show. This year, it's been a little bit more of a mixed bag with the teams who have tried to play like this and their ability to stop the run. So, De Ante, when you're looking at the team, teams who play like that on the back end and are using a lot of those shells, which teams in your mind have stopped the run well and which teams have been kind of lagging behind where

you see where the cracks in this type of defensive approach exist? I think, you know, and sometimes it could sound reductive when we talk about it, but it's typically the teams with good players up front because that is what, that's what it requires, right? Like one of the, one of the benefits of playing single high, single high defenses is that it takes a lot of stress off of your interior linemen because you have linebackers layered right behind them that are plugging gaps. So you get more one-on-ones. But, you know, teams like the Rams, obviously, you know, they've been able to just paper over exactly what they did last year with the new defensive coordinator, you know, no real trouble. They've had a little bit more variance,

obviously changing over coaches and going from somebody who didn't necessarily have an identity in it from a Brandon Staley who obviously wanted to do that more than anything else in the world. So that was going to be a difference, but I like the way that they're fitting the run still. When the Browns play out of two high shells, I like the way that they fit the run. They obviously have some monsters up front. And when they're all healthy and rolling, like you can see all the athletes that they have, not only at the second level, but up front on the edges and what they're able to do to control gaps. They're really impressive to watch as well.

And then obviously, you know, I want to make sure referencing the guy that we were just talking about in Brandis Staley, their run defense is not good yet. I would not classify it as good. There's a 32nd in DVO. Yes. But you can see, there are certain points where you can see what they're trying to do. And sometimes looking at those teams

who maybe aren't there yet is really where I've been focusing a lot of my resources to see, is it sustainable? And we had that conversation about the kind of bodies that you have to draft, you have to draft as well

to be able to make it happen. But I'll never, you know, I'll never go away from watching the Rams fit the run. They are the peak of fitting the run out of two high shelves. So when you're watching the Rams do it and when you're watching the Chargers do it, where does the gap exist to you outside of just pure talent?

Is there a way they teach it? Is there a technique? Is that the only gap? Or when you watch the Chargers do it, are there aspects to it? It's like, and they just don't have this aspect to it down yet. Because Sebastian Joseph Day, who, me and Seth, he's like one of our five favorite players

in the entire league. When you watch him play, he's not a first round pick. He's not a monster, but he is perfect for what they do. He is such a good handle on how to play that way. The Chargers don't have Sebastian Joseph days coming out of their ears in the ways the Rams have over the last couple of years. So to me, it has to be about a little bit more than just having the best players. Yes, I do think that there is a large piece of that.

There are certain things from like a technique perspective. And there are games like, if you watch them play the Ravens, and the Ravens ran all over them, there just comes a point, if you're going to play out of two high shells where you just can't get moved at the point of attack. Like the charges are pretty good at setting the edge, but setting the edge is great until all of your interior guys are being moved three, four yards off the line of scrimmage, you know,

or just being washed down. So there's a lot of trouble with that as well. And I think that this is going to, I think we're teeing up Seth in something that he's talked a lot about, which is the way that you have to design your front to protect it from being moved off the line of scrimmage like that. And we are going to talk about that. So when you watch right now and you watch some of these teams, the Rams and Chargers are perfect examples.

What you've talked about, Seth, and what you wanted to mention here is that you have this kind of push and pull of wanting to play too high, but also wanting to play bare fronts in order to stop the run out of those looks. So very quickly, just explain to people what a bare front is and why it's applicable in these sorts of situations. So the barefront is basically a five-man defensive line unit. and you have a nose tackle, so someone line up directly over the center, and you have two three techniques. Normally in a four-downe, you have one three technique, the Aaron-Darnell position. So you have two three techniques lined up on each guard, and then you have two defensive ends.

If it's a spread look, then they're going to be outside the tackle. There's a tight end. Maybe they're outside the tight end. But what this does is when all the interior offensive linemen are covered by a defensive lineman, you can't double team. And what does the NFL want on offense? They want double teams because they are a zone league, whether it's inside zone, outside zone, or Nate Tice's favorite play duo. Like that is, that's the game right now.

So if you're trying to stop that, how do you stop double teams? They can't double if everyone is lined up with a player on top of them. So now you get all these single blocks, linebackers can scrape over and be free. So the NFL is like, oh my God, this is what we want to do. do to stop the run. Like, we need to play bare fronts. We need to play bare fronts, five-man fronts, either from an actual five-man defensive line unit or a three, four,

whatever you want to call it. This is what we have to do. It's a mix, too, right? Like, it's all over the place how teams are doing it. The personnel looks different in multiple different situations. But that five across is that kind of ties together all of the teams that are doing this. Right. Like, I mean, last year the Seahawks played KJ. Wright as that kind of defensive end.

Perfect. And he's like a true linebacker. whereas you'll have like von Miller as the edge there and he's obviously a pass rush or edge rush or whatever. So teams are doing that because this has been in football for a long time. You want to stop zone, play a bear, everyone's singled up, run and make a tackle. I saw Demari-O Davis shoot through gaps because everyone was covered last night against the Seahawks, my favorite player in the league, Demerre Davis. And so that's what teams want to do.

That's the NFL's first instinct on defense to say we're going to play a bear front. The issue is now... You're running out of guys. So you got five defensive linemen right there. Well, how many linebackers are you going to have there? Well, you want to have two linebackers, right? Because that's how we play. We play with two linebackers.

We want people in the intermediate parts of the field to drop into the intermediate zones. Well, you can't play with five, two, with two linebackers on the field, and then play with two high safeties because you're going to have enough of guys. So it's like this weird dilemma. So I'll give you the stats before I forget. Barefront plays with a nose tackle, a zero tech, are up 3% from last year, and they have risen every year for the past three, four years. About 3% each year.

So now we're at 23%. So almost a quarter of all first down snaps are played with a nose. So that basically means a barefront. Call it the shag. In effect. Yes, I was going to say that is also contextualized by what offenses are doing, right? Because if you want to stop zone, you want to get rid of double teams and make offensive line and win everyone on one block. So there again is kind of like that trade off, you know, the push-pull effect.

I mean, it's interesting that you brought up the Saints because that's another team that I like to watch fit the run out of too high. And to your point, like they want to be in four-down when they can, you know, if they're in nickel, they're going to be in four-down. And then some of the issues with that, you know, as he described, what the problems are doing it out of a barefront. If you're in four down, now you're asking second level defenders to be like half and half players. So if you watch the Saints, you watch like the 49ers who are pretty evenly split in terms of single high and too high, you'll see linebackers or nickels kind of patting their feet and standing still because they might have to fit the run, but then they might have to get all the way out to the flat.

You know, they might be fitting the run or they might have to carry, you know, a guy vertically. And there's all of those layers, you know, it becomes difficult, I think, to do everything. You can't stop everything with one call. And I think that that's probably the conversation that we have to have next in our dialogue about defending offenses is that we're not trying to come up with a magic bullet. It's about taking away the most dangerous thing. And right now, the most dangerous thing in the NFL is crossing routes on early downs, right, and our intermediate passes period on early downs. And this is a coverage shell that lends itself best to it. And then like set said, you get into a five down front because that takes away the explosive runs throughout

side zone. And you're just trying to live, you're just trying to take away everything else in between from there, you know, and just hoping for the best. D-A is a defensive coach, which you think about this stuff all the time, when you're thinking about that trade-off and you're saying, all right, we got five defensive linemen, we got two high safeties. That's seven. Okay, we've got seven of 11. Now we got four other spots. And you watch these teams, and the Rams will do it brought out of a bare front. They'll have two high safeties. And they'll only have two other corners on the field. They'll have two linebackers out there. So this team that has notoriously been built to stop the pass first with resources is playing

with four corners in 2021. And that's a decision they've had to make. So if you're thinking about that tradeoff as a defensive coach, between all right, we want either five defensive backs, so we have a slot corner or we want four defensive backs. We want two linebackers. How do you think about that bargain in your mind when you're thinking about how to structure this stuff? To me, and this is something. It's not just the Rams, but the Buccaneers because Todd Bulls is a barefront guy. You know, that's what he came up in. And you'll see the same types of things, same types of issues come up, is that you can only really make so many decisions on what kind of call you're running, right? Like, there's only so many ways you can rotate the defense. You've already got

every gap covered up up front. And if you're not going to play with a nickel or run any crazy types of safety rotations, it can be difficult to plug all the whole. So for me as a defensive of coach. The number one thing I'm thinking about is like once I set what front I like, once I set what coverage I want, then from there it's about the bodies, right? If it's 12 personnel, I probably do need to have two true linebackers on the second level. If it's 11, maybe I can get away with, you know, two true linebackers, depending on what we're playing in coverage. Are we just going to be a soft cover too? Yeah, if you got two freaks like you do in Tampa Bay, hey, you know, you can do a whole lot worse, you know, no matter what your call is. And you can see when it

doesn't work. So you see teams like in Arizona, who I'm writing about right now. And basically, if they're going to play split safety, it's actually really cover zero because they have no hope of stopping to run, basically playing out of two high shells. They really can't stop the run anyways. So to me, that's kind of what I think about as a defensive coach is once you know what gaps you're trying to plug up front and then what passes you're trying to take away. Everything else from there is about bodies. And if you got guys who can play at the second level that can do multiple things, you know that's again the conversation that we had in the off season that is the key right now and it's so funny because that exact if then statement like that causality there all right we're

in 12 two linebackers when you react like that just instinctively Kevin Stefanski just sitting there rubbing his hands like that exactly because that's exactly what he wants and that's the fun tradeoff here between offenses and defenses so what you're going to say well guess who sees the most cover three in the league, the Vikings and the Browns, because they play. Because you better. Because you better. Damn well better. If they're going to play with CJ Ham on the field, it's tougher. Like, you got to have, you got to have Brandon Staley's mindset to live in a world where they're going to put a fullback on the field and you're not, and you're going to live in a too high world. Now, maybe, look, you can probably look at the numbers and say that, you know, the EPA per play is probably, is probably okay.

like you can give up a couple more yards on the ground just to live in a better world in the past game on the play action stuff. I don't know. But yeah, I think maybe that's what that's what the future is. However, I know NFL defensive coordinators because I've watched them for a long time and they don't want to live in that world. Like a lot of them do not want to live in that world. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing, I don't know, but they do not want to live in that world. Another stat because I have all the stats in my head right now. So we talked about the zero

The nose stuff and the bear front When teams line up in With a zero nose On first down We see Quarters and cover six So two high coverages Go down like crazy

Like I think five to ten percent On both sides So like we're They're saying like hey we just can't do this Like if we're going to line up in a bear We got to spin a safety down Because we want We want intermediate defenders

And we're saying like we're saying like, We've seen issues where I posted a clip of the Saints running an option route against the Washington who wants to be in bear. They have a great defensive line. They want to be in bear. And hey, guess what? If you're going to play with a lot of space under in that intermediate area, a team like the Saints specifically are going to take advantage of you with an option route running into that space. And teams don't want to do that. So they want to spin.

So now you're playing with a zero to stop the run because you feel like this is the best way. to stop the run, but then it's like, but we also have to spin when we do it. So that's just the dilemma like Deonti was talking about. Okay, you want to play a four down front? Well, you're going to get double teamed and the run's going to be an issue, but you can take care of the past a little better. So, you know, I don't know what the answer is, but that's kind of the dilemma that's going on.

When you say spin, you mean that just so people understand when you start in a too high shell, if you're going to spin your safety is late, one comes down in order to help play the run. So you're playing a single high coverage, even if you're playing a single high coverage, even if you start out of that show, which teams feel compelled to do because they just don't have enough bodies to stop the run. So even if you want to give the illusion of that too high show and that you can play anything, eventually you're going to have to bring one of those guys down. Yeah, I mean, the best example, the example that I think we always use when we talk about spinning safeties is with one guy deep and one guy short is Cam Chancellor and Earl Torres. Yes. They would spin a lot, which meant Cam Chancellor was coming down and be a pseudel.

linebacker basically and then Earl Thomas was the center field or deep. And this was something that we talked about with Brandon Staley when we had him on the podcast was that it's not so much about it's not so much about being too high and only too high as much as it is in multiplicity and being able to get a guy who can add into the run fit, but from depth, right? Like you just don't want to give the offense the ability to say like, okay, four down. I see everybody's on the second level. You got one high safety.

I know where the holes are. we can just throw into the holes. You know, we can, we don't even have to think about it. Every call is a premium look against this. You know, that's something that I've heard you and our pal, Nate Tice, talk about often, you know, when you guys are recapping games, is that it comes up over and over and over again. So just having that multiplicity, and, you know,

this goes into cess point about playing with five down or whether it's a three, four, a true bear look, is having that ability to spin down and say, hey, we can drop out one guy on the edge, and then he can be replaced with the safety, or we can play with the front in a way where it looks like we're giving away one edge, but we're actually rolling somebody down late. So having that multiplicity really, to me, that is the key because there is always going to be value in playing single high to stop the run. That can't leave football because you'll always have a team like Minnesota.

You'll always have a team like Cleveland. You'll always have a team like Baltimore who can really punish you, especially on the edges of the defense if you don't, you know, put guys in run support positions to be able to help you out. with their box defenders. So it has to be there. It's just using these split safety looks more often and then being able to make those decisions on how many guys you want

at the line of scrimmings like Seth was talking about based on what you think the actual danger is. Like Washington could probably live in four down if they wanted to. They just happen to have five defensive linemen who merit playing time. You know, they have guys that they can play. But if they wanted to be four down too high, they could. I don't know if it's going to help with the issues that they haven't covered right now because they can't cover a soul.

but they would probably still be able to stop the run out of that structure. And that to me, again, that that is the always going, that is a dilemma that's always going on. Because eventually, you know what we're going to see. And this is something the chiefs have been investing in. And that's spreading the ball, that's spreading the receivers out and still being able to run the ball. And when they can do that, if you want to play split safety, you can do it until you're blue in the face. But that bubble that exists in the box is always going to be there. And our offense that can attack that, whether it's with zone,

or with these gap schemes like power and counter, it's going to make you make difficult decisions. On a scale of 1 to 10, as somebody who thinks about defensive football all the time and coaches high school kids, looking at all the talent that Washington has and looking at their inability to play defense, on a scale of 1 to 10, how frustrating is it for you?

Honestly, a 9.5, because it doesn't make, it just does not make sense to me. I don't understand, to me, it all comes down to what you can and can't do with your corners. And I don't know if it's just that there are corners right now I don't have an understanding of the defense or if Ron Rivera just doesn't trust them. But I've written about them before in some of my likes and dislikes, which is, like, I just don't understand the way that they're playing in coverage no matter what the call is.

They're dropping guys so deep. They're not dealing with crossers. They're just giving up all this intermediate area. And, you know, it's a lot of layup throws for a defense that you would think with elite pass rushers, elite young pass rushers, and a good rotation of them should not be allowing. All right. Let's stick on defense for a little while just to upset Seth even more. This year so far, we have one of the big topics of conversation.

We did a whole show about it with Coach Vass a couple weeks ago about pressure looks and about the way that teams have constructed them and then beyond that, simulated pressure looks and creepers. So just so people understand, when we talk about this, it's going to be somewhat of a naughty conversation. So what we're talking about here is teams that show pressure looks and blitz, but only bring four compared to teams. teams that bring five. So if you, it's sort of complicated because blitz, the way the term is

defined, even by a lot of advanced metrics places, is five or more. But there are a lot of blitz looks in the current NFL that only bring four because they're these simulated pressures. Obviously, the Panthers were doing a ton of that early on. My question about this, why are we talking about this more now? Why do we think this has become more of a point of conversation this season compared to years past because I just feel like it's been more of a hot button issue than it has been in the past. I think it kind of relates to the point that we were just having about talking about playing two high defenses on early downs.

It is about early down defense in like your third and longs, you know, are obvious, obvious situations. And there are two different ways that you can use it. And I was listening to that podcast with, with you and Vass not long ago. And he made the point that, you know, even in the terminology in the way that we talk about simulated pressures or creepers, they have different things. uses based on the situation. So not only do the Panthers do it a bunch, like when they know that they're in

obvious passing downs, but you have teams like the Giants who would do it a lot on first down, you know, because and what they're doing is they're trying to bring a safety, bring a DB, bring a linebacker and drop an edge defender out. And the reason why you're doing it and what I was explaining when we were on the podcast, I think that was on Monday, is that it's almost like, it's almost like the defense's version of running play action or running a run pass option. interesting. You're trying to get the best of both worlds. So if I can get a blitzer to run through an open area and create a negative play, amazing. But if it's not there, we're still safe. Right. It's the same

idea behind an RPO. If I can get the slant to Tyreek Hill on the run away from a defender's leverage, we're going to be a great offense. But if that's not available, I can hand the ball off and I didn't invest everything in only one outcome. And that to me, I think, is the biggest, the biggest reason why I think we're starting to see more conversations about creepers on early downs. And the simulator pressures on third down is all about trying to manipulate the protection and finding out where teams are weak. And I think that because, you know, this is something that Seth and I talk about, because the NFL is so spread now, there's only so many ways you can set protections.

Nate, our pal that comes on the show, he's a protections guy. And you guys talk about it often, which is that if you want to be in 11 personnel or you want to be in 4 open, you can only set the protection one of two ways. You know, you're either sliding or everybody's manned up. And if a defense knows, again, to the same point we were talking about on the offensive then, if the defense knows where you're weak and they can manipulate it and again, not have to overinvest and do what Rex Ryan did, you know, five, 10 years ago where he's always looking for unblocked pressure, we can try for it.

And then if you get it, great. And if you don't, you're still sound in coverage. Seth, and you're thinking about the downsides to playing with a lot of creepers from the offensive perspective. Where to you are the vulnerabilities of a defense that plays like that? What are the downsides to playing like that if you're a defense? Well, you end up with a lot of situations where if you block it up, you know, if it's a pass, an early down pass, and if you block it up, you can get bodies, the defense will

have bodies in coverage that they don't want to have in coverage. So you see this a lot. I'm an LSU fan. When Dave Irranda was there, he would have, and it was kind of part of his defense, So not really a simulated pressure lick per se, but he would have his defensive ends. So two guys that played a bit in the NFL, Arden Key and, you know, K. Levin Chasin would have to be coverage guys.

Because that's kind of the defense that everyone was doing. That's what he was doing. So you live in this world. And you've got to be okay with that. Like that's always good. The question is like, hey, you got to be okay with that. The Broncos got gashed two weeks ago because they had to, this kind of goes back to our bear discussion,

but they have to widen out. Von Miller on a slot. And they got gashed because that's not a body you want coverage. So like that's always going to be the issue. You also, I think against the run, the issue is going to be now linebackers are moving into different gaps than just kind of like on the snap. They're moving. They're blitzing. So you can get gashed.

You get washed out and then bang, the ball hits on the backside. You might not have the players there to clean up. Whereas if you're just in a regular no blitz look, the linebackers can shuffle over and find the ball and make a play. Now you're coming hard and fast. And you're dealing with that. Two teams that me and Deonti have talked about a lot in college, Georgia and the University of Cincinnati,

they do this stuff a lot. But they're living in interesting worlds. Now, it's worked out for both of them. They're really good. And especially Georgia's got really good players. I don't know if you know this. But yeah, they're coming. coming with that cross, it's a cross dog.

I don't mean to be too jargony here, but it's a cross dog, first down blitz. That means both linebackers are coming through the A-GAPs. So there's a chance you get gashed on that stuff. So like there's always going to be those issues. But I'm team's in pressure on first down. I think this is, and I really, really think what Deonté is saying, how it's a safe kind of environment, like an RPO on offense. I think is so true. It's so interesting because calling it play action of defense, I think makes perfect sense

because what does play action on early downs give you as an offense traditionally? Explosives. It's a way to create explosive plays in a fairly safe manner because the downside of play action is not nearly as high as like seven-step drop-down field passing game, right? So you can kind of build and manufacture these explosive plays while not putting yourself in a bad position. On defense, TFLs are explosive plays. That's what explosive plays on defense are.

And creating those negative plays on defense and creating explosive plays on offense, it's really the same sort of thought process. One negative play on defense can define an entire drive for you. One explosive play on offense can find an entire drive for you. So those dual searches for those two things and finding similar ways to go about it, I think is actually really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. One of the teams that does it really well that I enjoy watching,

run these is the Steelers. And I think that with them, something that's instructive about it and the reason why they're so successful is because they've been an odd front team. And when you're an odd front team, you have a little bit more multiplicity in terms of who you're dropping and who you're not. If you're playing with four down linemen, you know, you are going to have to drop a guy that's probably, you know, six, four, six five, and 260 pounds out in the coverage, you know, that and if the ball's coming out quick, hey, you're okay.

But like Seth said, if they're sliding the right way, or if the back picks it up and the quarterback gets to finish his drop and work through his progression. And then he finds out that your defensive end is out on the tight end. You're probably in trouble. You know, or you can't survive that. What the Steelers have done is flood the field with safeties and linebackers, you know, in these obvious passing situations. And then they're walking guys like Melvin Angram or T.J. Watt all over the place to where they're going to get a fourth rusher.

You just don't know where it's coming from. Yeah. And even if you pick it up, they've got all these. DVs on the field. So it's not as big of an investment. It's not as boom or bust. So and that kind of goes again to that odd front discussion. This is something that Seth and I talk about all the time. The creepers and simulated pressures fit the odd front world a little bit better because of the bodies that you have. How many true even front teams are there even anymore in the NFL? Like true four down, this is how we play defenses. I'm trying to think. I mean,

the one that's most extreme that comes to mind immediately is San Francisco because they're not just four down. They're like old school four down where the guys are in wide nines no matter what. They're probably, I mean, they're the most extreme example, but to your point, it is dwindling. It's 100% dwindling every year. I want to say the Colts and Eagles off that tree. Everfluis and Jonathan Gannon are pretty hardcore. I haven't watched a ton of the Eagles this year, and I probably won't. Probably shit.

I think that's for everybody. Yeah. Definitely the Colts, I think, for. a few years now. I've been a pretty true four-down cover two type of team. Guess what? And they're not a creeper simulated pressure team because you don't want DeForest Buckner having to drop

out in the coverage. All right. It sets time now. I want to transition to all and talk about some of the other things that we're seeing on that side of the ball. And one of the conversations that we want to dig into here is something that I think has been so fascinating to watch over the

first chunk of the season because one of the quotes that kind of explains football to me over the last five years is something that Rich Scangarroo said a couple off seasons ago when he was talking about the Shanahan type of offense. He said, quarterbacks don't make this system. Systems make quarterback. This system makes quarterbacks. And I think that we thought about football that way in the NFL for a few years, where we had these guys who the play caller could play through them. And it created a lot of efficient offense when the league was single high and you could just spam the same.

the right plays over and over again, when you didn't need that sort of flexibility. Now, as we've seen teams like the Rams kind of transition, I think it's muddy the waters about this understanding of, all right, where is the interplay between the play caller and the quarterback and who's actually in charge here? And I think the Rams right now are a really good example of that. So when you're thinking about just that conversation overall, Seth, and how it's played out in the RAMs situation, what interests you about that? And it's something that I believed and kind of still believe to a certain degree, but you're right with the Rams have kind of illuminated a lot this year with Stafford at quarterback.

Because I think what a lot of us thought was going to happen was you would see the exact same offense that he was running with golf in terms of run-pass splits, in terms of play action, in terms of drop-back, in terms of what specific concepts they were calling. And you would just put Matt Stafford in there, and that would be different. Which sounds okay. Which honestly would have been fine. We all think now, especially after we know how kind of good Stafford's been, that would have been fine. But what we're actually seeing is him say, no, this is not my offense. It's just Sean McVeigh talking.

This is not my offense. That was Jared Goff's offense. But now I have this player this kind of like, you know, we talk about Stafford. The guy's been in the league for 10 years. This guy is clearly a very, very, very good quarterback. So, you know, I have this type of quarterback. So I don't have to, my run platts, plat splits can change. I can throw the ball more.

I don't have to be in as much condensed formations. And that's what they were for so long. And we loved it. We all loved it. We said, oh, my God, look what Shama Bay is doing in, you know, 2018, 19, 20, they're going at 2017 condensed splits in 11 personnel

Robert Woods and Cooper Cup they're kind of playing like tight ends like oh my God look at how crazy it is that they're doing and they're running outside zone and it's so good and they're booting off and drag off at least like a real quarterback blah blah blah blah blah

and it's like they don't and it's like they don't do that anymore they go spread because they're like hey you know what we can do what I can do now and Deonté says this all the time hey I can run deep content Now, the offensive line has been very good.

I can run deep dropbacks. I can run deep concepts. And my quarterback will always get to the right receiver. And if my call and Shambhvi was so good at this, I will get you, I will get you Jared Gough to the open receiver to the front side of the play. But if it's not there, we got problems. Hey, Matt Stafford, I call it, you read it out, you get to the backside, you get to this backside dig at 12 yards. Like, no problem.

And that's been such an illuminating thing for me is looking at how McVeigh is. Now, he's calling the same concepts. He's calling whatever he calls his flood concept. He's calling whatever he calls his weak side option concept. It's just that he's calling certain things a lot more than he ever has. So it's the Sean McVeigh offense, but these macro level splits have changed completely. And it's been, God, it's been my favorite offense to watch this year.

It's unbelievable. And Stafford is playing in a hundred. high level and he's doing all these stuff that he's, I know we say this has become a meme at this point, but he's doing all the stuff that honestly, if the national media wanted to pay attention, he was already doing in Detroit for a long time. But, you know, so it's been, it's been great. And it's, and it's, again, it's illuminating to see like what an offense is, who controls what you do on offense. Perfect example to me was a Thursday night game against Seattle. Totally.

They were just drilling that dig over and over and over again. And to me, you can only continue to come back to throws that are that far down the field that regularly, if you have a quarterback that understands how to go through the entire progression of the play. Not just, hey, we're calling us because we'd like to throw the ball to the dig, but actually being able to read it out and finding, and being able to squeeze a ball in the tight windows, if need be, that isn't schemed open, right? It's not the drift route that Seth talks about where it's almost like a pop pass to the receiver off of play action. It's called the starters passing offense. Exactly. All you're trying to do is throw the ball before the free safety lights your receiver up.

That is the entirety of the passing game. But to really be able to get into drop back and again, you know, to build off of what's up this thing on first and 10. Or maybe you run the ball on first and 10 and you only get two yards. It's not the end of the world anymore. Now you don't have to spam outside zone and bootleg all the time to try to force yourself into second and four, second and three. It's more like, hey, we're going to call whatever we like on first down. And if it doesn't work, okay, Matt Stafford, time for you to go earn your paycheck. And you have a quarterback who's good enough to do that.

he's a problem solver. It's talking about those negative plays, right? Like the Rams are in a world where if you get a negative play on offense where you get the defense's version of an explosive, it's over. Series is over. Now you have a problem solver on offense. We've talked about this a bunch over the last couple weeks. You can feel that difference.

You can feel that difference when you have a Herbert or where you have a Stafford. And when third and 11 doesn't look that scary. And that is such a huge, huge monumental change for some of these teams. I think, you know, talking about like hitting this famous backside dig. So what that means is that you have a front side concept, a combination that is oftentimes three receivers, sometimes two receivers. They're running something that's putting a defender in a tough place, especially if it's a zone defender. And then you're trying to throw that one. And if not there, the quarterback will have a route that comes back into his.

vision. So if he's looking to his right, there's a route, it's usually a backside in breaking route at intermediate level that comes back into his vision. So if he's looking right first, then a route from the left side is going to come cross the field to into his vision. And I think like those routes can only become open if you've exhausted the front side concept because your eyes will pull coverage defenders to a certain spot. Yeah. And then that opens up these backside routes that they are hitting time and time again to Robert Woods. They even have a, they had a backside fake dig and go to Deshaun Jackson, I think against the bucks, which is disgusting.

Who does that? Who does that? But anyways, the point is like, with Goff, it was like, I have to get you to your first read as often as possible. That means I cannot do any, you, like, like, and with Goff, he can do this type of stuff with eye manipulation that Matt Stappard is doing. So you end up with, and McVeigh is so good at getting Gough to his first read. But when it's not there, it's like what else can you do?

Like that first read can be covered because you're staring at it. Whereas with Gough, he's, with Stafford, he's able to get through the progressions, able to move his eyes and do all that stuff. You saw a really nice one when he threw the cup on the crossing route where he just held the safety, held the safety, held the safety, and then came to cup across the field. He's doing stuff that is just from another planet right now. And I think Deante, this part is interesting to me, like again, from a defensive perspective, when you think about what routes are available and what stage of the play, this is where

physical talent for quarterback shines through, right? Like twitchiness, beyond just pure arm strength. Like, I don't care if you can throw it through a guy if you're robotic and you can't move around. I think twitchy athleticism with some of these guys and the ability to reset, flip your hips, get the ball out, that to me has. has just become so apparent when you have a guy that can do that when you have a guy that can't. Exactly.

And then that becomes a difficult process to work through as a defensive coach or thinking about it as a defensive player. Because what window do you really want to play in? Because you have to drive downhill. You know, my favorite Nick Savon quote of all time is that break on the ball shit don't work when he was talking about Dan Marino. Right. Like he can play soft zone coverage all you want. But when you got a guy that has a laser, you know, all that breaking on the ball just gets you more first downs. But now, you know, within the context of this offense, and this is where the marriage between

offensive coordinator and quarterback can really be fruitful is knowing when to call that money play, right? The one or two plays per game where you get that dig and go or, you know, the opening game on Sunday night or Sunday night football where you get that corner post, right? The first play action. And that's when you want to take your shot. And having a quarterback that you know will not only be able to have the armed talent to take it, but can help you set it up.

so that way it doesn't always have to be perfect. I don't have to wait for the four opportunities a year. I can call Y League, where you got your tight-in running that backside wheel route, where you can just throw a lollipop out there because there's nobody covering it, but to actually call something that's built off of all of the other passing concepts, not just play actions, but other passing concepts. And to assess point, one thing I wanted to get in while I have it in front of me, when we talk about what you have to scheme up as a offensive coordinator

for a quarterback that doesn't have that arm talent. So I'm looking at the empty snaps for the Rams over the last four seasons. And they've gone up every year. This year they're at 85 through week seven. And there was no more than 60 in any of the other four years. So the last three years with golf. And then the average depth of target. That's the thing to me.

Yes, from 2018 to now, it's 5.1, 4.7, 7.3, so a little bit more downfield. And then this year, it's 9.1. That's ridiculous. It's fake ball. He throws a ball nine yards deep on average out of empty. It's absolutely unbelievable. And I think that Seth, to me, the coolest part, and we can move out from this, is another McVeval Fest, but I think it's worthwhile.

Watching those versions of the Rams offense over the last few years, outside of how unique it was in the idea of like, we're living condensed world, we're going to run all this stuff out of 11 personnel. You see the sequencing and how it all fits together. And that part is very cool. It's like, all right, this play is going to lead directly to this play. And they needed that because they needed to manufacture offense. Now, the same reasons that Sean McVeigh was a good play caller back then show up,

even if the structure of the offense looks different. So you see sequencing with certain drop-back concepts. Like that example you threw out there at Seth about when they run arches in all of these different ways. So it's the same passing concept dressed up 10 different ways. So now the same things that made Sean McVeigh a great offensive coach and how all the pieces fit together and how the sequences fit together are expanded and grafted on to any type of offense you want to play. And guess what the results have been?

Fucking fireworks. It's absolutely ridiculous to watch. Yeah. So you have, you know, what was it? The Cardinals game. And if you follow me on Twitter, you would have seen my, I put a collection of those plays of the same concept, Arches, which is really just designed to get a short slant route.

And often in this offense to Cooper Cup, just open underneath quick bang. drag off hit these all the time. But now, instead of the progression being, okay, we're going to run the football, then I'm going to boot, then we're going to throw a screen. We're going to run the football, we're going to boot, then we're going to go to the screen.

Now the progression is, I'm going to show you arches from the same formation. Then I'm going to show you arches where it's not Cup running it. It's actually the tight end from the who is lined up as a wide receiver. And then I'm going to show you a double move where a cup stutters like he's going to, They show you the exact same thing. All the presentation is exactly the same. And here's a double move. And they throw the ball on a deep double move to it to Cup.

So like all that type of progression, play calling progression is so much better for an offense. Right. Like those are plays downfield that we can hit. Rather than it's being like, okay, well, we're always going to hit Cup on the option route. We're always going to hit Robert Woods on the five-yard option route. So now you still have that because you have these two great receivers. But you're just adding so much more. And then the play call progression, like I just said, with the digger up,

can go on the backside. All right, we'll show you the dig, we'll show you the dig. For four weeks, we'll show you the dig. And then here's Deshaun Jackson. Oh, by the way, we have Deshaun Jackson on the dig and go. Like, it's, I don't know, man. This is too good. All right.

Let's stick out of offense here before we get out of here. We wanted to talk about teams moving away from the spread and a spread approach and how it's benefited them. It's a really weird place to be as a football watcher. and somebody who thinks about the game a lot. We talked about this a little bit before the show. If you had told me 10 years ago that a team moving away

from 4-wide, 10 personnel, sling it all around would be interesting and beneficial for them, I would have wondered how we arrived in this place. But that's where we are, where some of these teams, and we'll talk about a couple examples, getting things kind of back to an old-school approach with personnel,

with the certain ways they structure things has actually benefited them. So Deonti, you guys have talked about the bills and other teams a ton on your show. What do you think is the best example of this so far this year, where a team turning back the clock a little bit has been a boon for them offensively? Well, you mentioned them because that's the one I've probably been the most hyper-focused on, which is the bills, and it's because it's been so extreme from the first like two to three weeks of the year to where they are now. You know, we talked about it when they played the Steelers.

was like, huh, the Steelers just looked at the EFC championship game and said, you just play cover two all game and take away these intermediate throws. This offense doesn't look so great. And I think the bills realized we can't punish that with the run game if we're always four open. Being in double zero personnel, meaning no backs, no tight ends, true empty personnel, that doesn't benefit you unless you're going to use Josh Allen as your only battering ram in the run game. And he's too valuable for that now. Right.

So seeing just that jump in personnel usage where they basically had two personnel packages. They were in 11 and they were in 10. And now it's like, oh, you're right. Exactly. You know, it's like, okay, they've got two tight ends on the field. They'll go 21 now. They'll get into some super heavy stuff with like 22 personnel. You know, that to me has been the biggest kind of surprise and the thing that I've enjoyed the most.

And Seth and I joke all the time on our podcast about us having certain brands that we are attached to. as consumers and analysts of football. And this has been a big one for me, like from the moment I stepped in at PFF, I felt like I'm probably persona non grata with all the nerds. But to me, still, the ultimate expression of being able to dominate or being multiple on the football field is the ability to create two back runs. It does so much for the rest of your offense. And I think that it makes a lot of sense that we had an era where we wanted to get as

spread out as possible because it just was not, it was not as fruitful to run the football into these loaded boxes, you know, maybe 10, about 10 or so years ago when the advent of the spread really kind of started kicking up and some rule changes obviously helped that as well. But now defenses know how to guard the spread. And when a defense knows how to guard the spread, it's probably going to open the door for you to get back into some more downhill football. And again, this is just the cyclical nature of how these things go. So if you look at it, they were 85 percent, three or more wider. receivers over their first three games. They're 70% over their last two games.

They are seventh in the NFL over the last three weeks in the number of snaps they've had in 21 personnel. They played one fewer game than everybody else. It's a drastic change. And in season, just on a dime, that shit is terrifying. Yes. When you can kind of sit there, and we've talked about this a little bit, and I had this kind of sinking feeling when I went back and I watched the bills this off season, where

I expected to kind of see. all these revelations of offense when I studied the 2020 bills. The same way I would with the Titans or the Browns or a team that I find inherently interesting. And I didn't see it. It just was the spread out look where they had all this receiving talent and they had Josh Allen and they kind of burned teams down just by virtue of being better in that way. But there weren't these ways that they were winning by structure of the offense.

And they came out in week one. I was like, oh shit. It's the same thing. And defenses have had the same realization at a much higher level than I did six months ago. If they'd continue trying to play like that, I think it would have been a problem. They have not played like that.

They've been able to transition so quickly and what their offense looked like against the Chiefs looked completely different than it did in week one against the Steelers. And it looked completely different than it did in the AFC title game in their last game of 2020. It's completely different.

And I think one of the things that I talk about a lot is the more spread you get, the more one-on-ones you get. This is how the spread era spread in 2003 or whatever in college football. Oh, wait a minute. If we put these neck rolls out in space, they can't cover anybody. What a disgusted tone you took to that signifier.

I hope you're like offended by that, Deiote. Jesus. No. Were you a necrol guy or no? I could play in space. I mean, I can move a little bit, but then I'm going to sit down for a little while. I'll screw that one. Okay.

So go ahead. Go ahead. Well, so that's how the spread era kind of started and why you saw all these passing attacks come from, from, you know, the air raid and Mike Leach and all these people and Hal Mummy. Where it's like, okay, well, we can spread all these bad coverage players out and get one-on-ones and then win all these one-on-ones. Well, things change, right? Like, we're living 25 years later. We're living 20 years later. things change.

And so the defense has been putting out coverage players who can deal in one-on-one situations. And they've had some interesting coverages schematically that can deal with all these spread looks. So now you've got to, if you're going to do that, if you're going to be super spread, you better have beaters, man. Guess what the bills have? They got beaters.

They got a top five receiver in digs. They got perfect body types. They have now this year they have, you know, Emmanuel Sanders. Mani Sanders being there is like your fever dream. unbelievable. So they have all these beaters. I guess who's the number one one-on-on-on player on that team? Josh Allen.

He makes plays. He just makes plays. He's so much more accurate than he was in the first two seasons. And he's just making plays. So you live in this world where that's what 2020 was for them. Josh Allen being Superman, them not having a real run game. Them, you know, okay, you want to play man to man? good, you have to deal with Stefan Diggs.

Oh, you want to play Zone at Rush 4? Well, Josh Allen's going to escape the pocket and he's going to find a pocket and someone is going to run into a pocket of space because your eyes are all on Josh Allen and you're cooked. And we can say the same thing with Patrick Mahomes and what they do with the chiefs. They're as spread as possible because they're basically

a 10 personnel team with Kelsey on the field. So they're super spread. But the issue becomes, once you have a little bit of, once the quarterback is not perfect or you get teams in two high shells and you can't deal with it and you can't get outside the pocket if you're Josh Allen, you're going to have some problems. So they had those problems in the ASU title game.

They had it week one against the Steelers. And they said, hey, and this is what I love about Daibol. And the head coach is like, okay, we saw this. Yes, we have Josh Allen. Yes, he's a great player. But we can get into this other stuff and we can help him a little bit. bit. We don't have to be this super spread team every single week of the season. When we need to go to it and we will need to go to it, no problem. It's in our back pocket

because we have Josh Allen and Stefan Diggs and Emmanuel Sanders and Dawson Knox now. It's just what options do you have? And I think the other really good example of this, Deante, is Dallas. Right? So you look at Dallas last year. And even when before DAC got hurt, over the course of the season all year 2020, there was 74% of their snaps. or three or more receivers on the field, which makes sense, right? They have good receivers. And they would line up in these kind of static looks and 11 personnel. It's like, all right, let's win.

Our guys are better than yours. Now, almost by accident because Gallup got hurt, they've had 57% of their snaps with three or more receivers on the field this year, and the offense is better. Because they're having to kind of manufacture these ways to create separation, even if you have Amari Cooper and Michael Gallup and C.D. Lamb, why not make things easier for them? And I think Dallas stumbling into this version of their offense

has just been another example of how that transition can benefit you. Yes, and I think that that right there is the main point that I'm always trying to draw home about contextualizing the data in football. Because I think it's easy for us to look at something that's working and think that all you have to do is lean into it, and it will just continue to give returns. So the conversations that I'm having, about, oh, maybe offenses should try this or defenses to try this.

It's not so much to say, hey, if you get in the odd front, all these magic things will happen. Hey, if you play too high, all these magic things will happen. You get into 12 personnel, everything will be great. It's more like creating less of a degree of difficulty. It's all about degree of difficulty to me. If you're Tampa Bay and you have three freak receivers and a great tight end and you want to run your whole offense out of 11 because you can run duo and Chris Godwin can actually go knock a linebacker off the line of scrimmage,

hey, by all means, man, have fun with it. If you're the Rams and you've got two slot receivers who can basically operate as fullbacks in Cooper Cup and Robert Woods and you can run your whole 21 personnel offense, outside zone, bootleg stuff with slots, then be my guest. But the degree of difficulty on that is way up here. It's way, way up here versus a team like Dallas being able to evaluate, hey, while Gallup is down, we do have two good tight ends. we have you know we can get into these situations or we can run duo we can create these four man

surfaces hey defenses can only respond to that a couple of ways and when we catch them with the way that we like you still got number 19 and we still got number 88 and those two guys over the top will always give us good returns and it also helps to have a top five quarterback so again it's about being able to weaponize all of the threats that you have offensively going back to the bills one of the issues i had with them being so spread as i felt like they weren't getting the out of Dawson Knox because he was basically the only guy they had on the field who could be flexed in and out, you know, from the core of the formation. So you're not getting the most out of him. So if he split out, the defense can just say, hey, we'll get in a dime and we'll put a safety

on him. And we don't have to worry about that safety having to be a part of the run fit because he's out in space anyways. You don't have to worry about the run anyway. Exactly, because they didn't want to do it in the first place. So, yeah, it's all about degree of difficulty for me. So when you see these offenses and when you talk about multiplicity, it's not just, hey, run duo, hey, just run outside zone. It's use that so that way that nice wide receiver you have gets a little bit more space. So your quarterback has a little bit more of a surface area to work off of. So your running backs don't have to beat a guy in the hole every time. You can maybe get him out in space, you know, and create these one-on-one tackle scenarios with DVs. That to me is the key.

And that, to me, like, that's what good football is. It's the ability to be multiple. and you can't win games doing only one thing. I think that Seth and I probably said that a thousand times over in our conversation. How do you build layers of difficulty and complexity into what you do? And in a world 20 years ago, where nobody was using four wide receivers,

that was a complex problem for defenses to solve. Now, that world is normal. It's understood. It's familiar. So how do you build complexity? Let's throw two or three tight ends on there and be able to do whatever the fuck we want to do. Right. And that to me, Nate said it the other day.

Those are the best offenses to watch right now. The ones that are going to say, not because 12 personnel is some magic passing formula. It's not a simple, well, we'll run 12, we'll just throw it. And that'll be how we move the ball. That's not how it works. But all the different ways you can get to these different runs, watching the Packers run game or the Cowboys run game or the Browns run game. And just thinking about practically what it is like the week before you have to play that team

at all of the different shit that you have to worry about. Sometimes it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. What's going to be the biggest pain in the ass for the defensive coach we're playing against to deal with over the course of that week? And I think this kind of like puts this whole, what we're talking about into a whole package, which is, okay, everyone's running too high now. If I'm an offense coordinator, I don't want you to be in too high all the time because that's tough on me. You can double my outside guys. you can double the slots, et cetera, et cetera. Well, what did I say earlier?

How do you get cover three? You play with a fullback. Big bodies. Big bodies. Big bodies. Big bodies. Big bodies get you cover three. They get you bigger bodies.

Exactly. And what do we do when we get cover three? We score touchdowns through the air. That's it. Like that's what it comes down to. So like, yes. And you know, you can do, you can be more diverse in the run game like, like Deontes talking about.

When you're in spread, you almost basically have to have a quarterback who can run the football because it's tough without a tight end in there to be diverse. Or be the chief. So you can throw RPAs on every run and tag RPO's to every concept. So like your quarterback's got to be an option player. So like, yeah, it's working out this year for the Cardinals, I'd say. But like for the most part, like quarterbacks don't do that in the NFL. Even they've benefited by condensing it more though and by going with bigger bodies on the field.

Some of their best shit is when they decide, you know what? We need to run more 12 personnel. For two years. It's been better when they go 12 or 21 or whatever. But anyways, I don't think we're running. We can do another hour on the Cardinals. We are not going to do another hour on the Cardinals. Maybe we'll do that later in the year.

That is all we got. Guys, you are my favorite people, some of my favorite people to talk about football with. I hope that people enjoy that. If people are not listening to the Too High podcast, you get this every show. It is just a very high level football conversation that I learn a ton from. It is one of the only shows that I make a point to listen to pretty much every single time it comes out because of how much I glean from it. You guys will do the same. Gentlemen, sincerely appreciate your guys' time.

I know you're busy. This is fun as hell. Let's do it again sometime. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. All right, guys. That's all we got. Please check back in tomorrow.

Like I mentioned at the top of the show, Mitch is going to be joining us tomorrow on Thursday with Lindsay. Lindsay and I'll chat about another week in the NFL. Her second show of the week. Got a lot of Lindsay this week, which is a good thing. Please check back in tomorrow. Please rate and review the podcast on Apple or wherever you listen. I appreciate that. Please subscribe the athletic.

The athletic.com slash football show. Great stuff every single day. It cannot be a proper NFL fan without an athletic subscription. If you haven't done it yet, I don't know what you're doing. We'll be back tomorrow. As always, really appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.