The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Sneaky big second-year player X-factors

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

It's easy to overlook second-year players who A) didn't have huge rookie seasons, or B) aren't quarterbacks. But you don't have to be Jayden Daniels or Malik Nabers or Jared Verse to be an X-factor for your team—and, by extension, the league—in your second season. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen highlight six sneaky second-year X-factors on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)6:22 Any second-year Falcons defensive lineman13:16 Christian Mahogany, Lions LG20:37 Cole Bishop, Bills S26:56 Kris Jenkins, Bengals DT36:51 Renardo Green, 49ers CB44:34 Blake Fisher, Texans RTHosts: Robert Mays and Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Me and Derek Klessen are digging into year two players today. I think we spend so much time talking about guys as prospects heading into their rookie years. And it's just impossible to keep track of everybody over the course of that first season. Some guys are immediate contributors. Some guys are being rotated into the lineup. But those guys that you drafted in the first, second, even the third round,

heading into year two, you're expecting them to be big. parts of your plans. And so that's the pool of players that we took a long look at today. Me and Derek each picked three-ish guys heading into year two that we think can swing their unit one way or the other. Sometimes this is about realizing your ceiling as a unit. One of my guys was Christian Mahogany from the Lions. If Mahogany is a plus starter, is the Lions' offensive line again a top five to seven unit in the league? Sometimes it's about setting a floor. for your unit. If you can get one more guy that's an acceptable starter, does an offensive or defensive line come together in a way where it allows the entire offensive or defense to kind of

be the unit that that team wants it to be? So we pick three guys that we think based on how they play this year could push their unit either positionally or on that side of the ball one way or the other. Really enjoyed this conversation with Derek. Let's get to it right now. Derek, I'm excited about this one today. This is an idea that we, landed on a couple weeks ago and we were figuring out how we wanted our pre-season training camp podcast to look. And I just think this is a group of players we don't talk enough about. Just think about how much time and energy we spend, breaking down guys as prospects. And then over the course of their rookie years, there's just no way to keep track of everybody. And I think we

kind of forget guys that didn't necessarily burst onto the scene as rookies as they move into their second year. So going back, considering this pool of players and considering considering how they may shape the NFL season. I'm really excited about digging into this today. Yeah, I think during the course of the NFL season, you only have room for like a dozen, a dozen and a half rookies who are like actually making a difference. And you know, there's going to be some guys who get thrown into the lineup here and there.

But you kind of just forget about them or push them to the side. It's only the guys, it's only the rookies that start to pop is like, ooh, can he make a pro bowl as a rookie that you start to think about? It's these other guys who down the line need to matter, but maybe in their first year they don't. And there's always the adage that the year one to year two jump is the biggest jump that you're going to take. And then I don't think we consider or talk about that enough. Whether that's true is something we can probably save for another discussion.

But the fact that that's one of the old football cliches and then we don't spend enough time on the second year guys is probably a fault of mine. Well, again, and then we only do that for the guys who were like, oh, he was almost a pro ball as a rookie. Can he make all pro next year? And so like we spend like me and Deonté did a show on that for defenders for that literally like a month ago. but we just forget about some of these guys who maybe they didn't have the rookie year. Maybe they were injured for some of their rookie year and are coming back now. Before we dig into this, I don't want to get us too far off track, but I had to mention this to you because you're his biggest fan in this country, I think.

At Chargers Camp yesterday, I left very, very excited about Deion Henley. That's all I'll say to you. I left very excited about Deion Henley based on what I heard about him. And then he did his media availability yesterday. And I talked to him yet last year. I went to L.A. as part of something I was working on and, you know, chat with him in the locker room for a while and just came away extremely impressed. He might be the most charismatic man in America. So there's just a lot of stuff lining up in favor of Deion Hedley heading into this year.

Yeah, one more box for him to check in terms of, you know, he might need to wield some of that charisma to get himself some votes from some of these voters. You know, on the ESPN poll, he got like only a handful of votes for one of the best linebackers in the league. So if you can play, you know, 5% better next year, wield some of that charisma. We'll get him into the Proble. The quote that I will say from a defensive coach I talked to yesterday is he can be as good as he wants to be. And I think that that is probably the case with somebody that has his tool set. Yeah, I mean, just there's not very many linebackers who are that long, that fast,

and like already this good in coverage as a young player. It's just there's like three other guys. And he's in a pretty unique position. All right. We got a lot of guys that talked about today, though. So let's dig into this. group. Let's talk about the second year players we think could potentially swing their respective units in 2025. Why don't you kick us off? I actually don't know who yours are. So I'm excited to be

surprised by what this group looks like for you. So I'm going to cheat a little bit with the first one. And go to like, it's going to be multiple guys. Any of the Falcons defensive linemen that they drafted last year. Any of them. It's so true. I did the same thing where I was like almost landing on Rukeroro. And I was like, well, there's like three of them. So how do you pick between them? And he's the one who played the most, right? So he's probably the best one if you had to just pick one. But like they drafted three last year with Ruk Oroero.

They drafted Braylon Trice, who it's not his fault. He didn't have a good rookie season. Obviously he missed a lot of it with injury. And then they also drafted Brandon Dorliss, who didn't play a lot of last season either. And so I think going into, you know, especially post draft, we've done a lot of, oh, well, they're going to really need some of these young DBs that they drafted to step up. And they really need these two first round pass rosters to do something. And it's like, that's true.

but they also don't really have any clearly good defensive linemen right now, especially now that Grady Jared is out of the building. And so they need guys like Rukororoa to step up. I think he is probably the biggest one because, you know, doorless is a little bit more of that like can kind of play three tech and kind of play five tech and kind of be a big end. Braylin tries to me as more of like a Sam Hubbard like good run defending defensive end too. Rukororo is like truly your defensive tackle, put him in the middle. He has to be your guy.

and he kind of has just a I think he has a very niche skill set in the fact that like he's very quick I think he has like a skinnier lower half so he's never really going to win with power but if you watch some of his pass rush reps some of the ways that he's able to like slice you know from the backside on like outside zone

you can see how a little bit more development could make him a little bit more of an explosive player so interesting seeing how these light box teams approach this position group because I think some teams like look at the Rams for example Kobe Turner, Braden Fiske, the penetrating defensive linemen. Even Bobby Brown, and some of the guys played one technique for them last year, aren't huge space-eating players.

They go out and get Puna Ford, who is, again, a quicker guy. Like, that's how they've tried to solve this problem with penetration. You look at the chargers who play a ton of light boxes, they don't have a penetrating guy. Like, their smallest defensive tackle in that room weighs like 325 pounds, and it's not surprising that the Falcons, as they've tried to solve this problem, have gone with more smaller penetrating type bodies.

Like we want to be disruptive rather than eating space in order to solve this problem. And I think if you look at their group, it really points to that idea. Yeah. And I think like to me, sometimes just watching some of those defenses, it's like an itchy way to live. It makes me, you know, because you're, there's less rules, right? Like you're kind of just creating chaos and hoping that our second level, our second level fitters, our third level fitters, just do a good enough job at it. And obviously, I think if you coach those guys well enough, like you look at the Domeko Rines' defenses, like they play a lot like this where it's some lighter bodies.

They're just making chaos. And while our linebackers run a 4-4 and they're going to go find somebody. And you can get away with that. It's just a really risky way to live, especially if those penetrators aren't consistently actually getting there. And so I think that's why Rukeroro has to go from like, okay, he was fine as a rotational player last year. But he is really stepping into a role where now with Grady Jarrett gone, And I'm not saying he has to be a pro bowler for all this stuff to work, but like he has to be a clearly good and useful player for them on a down-to-down basis. What is your level of confidence that can happen?

Not that high, unfortunately. And it's for a few reasons, right? One of it, like he is going to have to learn a new defense this year with, with Obert coming in. So I think that's going to just mess things up a little bit for any young player. The veteran in the room in Grady Jarrett is gone, which I think is going to hurt some of these young players. And then I just, to him, he is, again, I. I look at his body type and I struggle. It just feels like some of his bad plays are always going to stick.

Like he to me is, again, skinnier, lower half. I think there are a lot of moments where when he's trying to like get a knee down and really hang on to double teams and when teams get four hands on him, he just does not have the bulk to do that. And I know that we just talked about like, oh, well, he's mostly going to be a penetrating player. That's true. But at the end of the day, you're still going to have to take on four hands at once at some

point. Absolutely. It's going to happen. And so if those plays are worse than you're getting value out of the place where you are getting in the backfield, that's a little bit what I worry about with him. Even if some of the – here's what I'll say about the front. And this is honestly one of the biggest questions I have as I go through this entire trip that I'm taking. I go to Atlanta. I can't even keep track of it all anymore.

I think it's on Sunday I'm in Atlanta. It is easily the most aggressive move of my training camp travels is my red-eye fly from Seattle to Atlanta and then going straight to Falcons practice, which, which is just going to be an absolutely miserable day. But I'm very interested when I spent some time down there to talk to their defensive staff about, like, how they see this stuff playing out with Jeff O'Brick's background and then the way that they played last year. And then the body types, right? Like they built the defense around some of these body types that fit the old scheme. But even if it's going to be a little bit different structurally, I wonder if the way they play blocks, like you said,

you talk about Dimeco Ryans' defenses. Well, Jeff Olbrick's defenses have the same DNA as D'Mico Rion's. defenses. So I wonder even if some of the structures change the ways and the techniques and how they're playing some of this stuff is there going to be enough carryover where a guy like Rukororo is not going to have to rewire his brain heading into year two. I mean, that's a really good point. Like I think, you know, to kind of tap into like that defensive tree a little bit, if they, I think the best version of what you're going to get from Rukurro is like some version of like Chavon Hargrave where again, he is sometimes if you get double teams on him, it's going to be a problem.

he's so explosive consistently that he's just creating enough chaos for everybody around him. He can really dent, you know, some of these guards on some of these plays. So that I think is what they're shooting for. It's just, again, we didn't see that much from him. You know, he only played like half of the games last season. And it's not like he was in there for 90% of the snaps when he was. So it's just there's a lot of projection here with, again, a front that just has almost no verifiably good players. Yeah.

It's all an idea. It's all projection. thrown a lot of resources into it. It's all an idea at this point for Atlanta. Let's get to my first one here. I have a lot. You could say 10 offensive linemen on this list, by the way. If you wanted to go with like a million off.

Do you have any offensive linemen on yours? So I brought like five options and it's, I'm going to like go with the flow of the show and see how I feel about who I want to pick. And one of them is an offensive lineman. So maybe. So I'm going to start with Christian Mahogany because I think there are a couple different offensive linemen I'm going to throw out here. And I think their situations are all a little bit different.

You know, with one of the other ones, it's can we find one more certifiable starter to lift the floor of this unit? With Christian Mahogany, it's more about can the lions recapture the ceiling of that unit or get close to it even with some personnel changes. So Christian Mahogany right now is slated to be the left guard for the lions. The way that they're lining up in training camp, Tate Rowledge, who they drafted in the second round, they're going to try him at center. They're going to see if this works with him at center. And it's an interesting choice for them. And we'll talk about it a lot.

I talk about with Colton Pouncy on the show that's going to come out on Saturday here. But them having Frank Ragnow and understanding the benefits of a high ceiling center, I think that's why they're seeing what Tate Rowledge can do there rather than finding a floor at that position with Graham Glasgow. But Mahogany seems like the clear favorite to start at Left Guard. And he started two games for them last year. He started the Bears game in the regular season and then the Washington game in the playoffs. And I went back and I watched both of those games today. and I left extremely impressed.

There is just so much to like about what he's bringing to the table already. And it was funny that the next offensive line I'm going to talk about is Blake Frisher. And so going back and studying both of them back to back, even independent of the players themselves, watching how well coached the Lions offensive line is versus how not well coached the Texans offensive line is. It's a very jarring experience. So it's hard to separate what is the individual player bringing to the table and what is the coach? But when I watch Mahogany, he's extremely athletic. He's powerful.

He's really good in space. And he was playing, especially in his first start against the Bears, just with an incredible amount of awareness for a rookie player in his first start. When you watch him, he's finding guys in pass protection. He's looking for work when he's uncovered. The way that he's moving off of double teams and climbing to the second level, the timing on it is very good. His aiming points in space are very good.

and then you combine that with a real physical skill set. Like he is a big, powerful man who moves really well. And I think that he has a real ceiling at the position. So now when you're looking at that lion's offensive line, if this is a guy who, as I believe a sixth round pick, isn't just a stopgap player for you, but can be like a plus starter. And then Ratledge comes in with, again, a ton of physical skills.

And then Glasgow, if he's your fourth or fifth best offensive lineman again, are we at a place where even if this isn't this unit it's been over the last couple years, it can still be a top 7-8 offensive line in the NFL and be a driver of the lion's success. After going back and watching Mahogany, I don't think that's off the table because I think he has a chance to be a very good player.

Think about everything you just said to describe Christian Mahogany where it's like big guy, 320 pounds, powerful, pretty good mover into the second level. Kind of sounds like the left guard they had two years ago and Jonah Jackson when they were, the Lions might have been the best offensive line in football that year. And I think last year they took a slight step back, in part because Jackson was missing

and they had to insert Graham Glasgow at left guard. And again, Glasgow's like a serviceable player. He's a floor setter. Yes, but he doesn't bring the pop that a guy like Jonah Jackson or in this case, hopefully Christian Mahogany can bring. So I think them, it's not just that he is hopefully an upgrade over Graham Glasgow as he continues to play a little bit more. It's that I think he fits the identity.

of like what the offensive line wants to be and I think they lacked a little bit last year and so again, 2022 and 2023, this was an offensive line that could truly move whoever they wanted to. And I think last year you actually saw them be a little bit more of a zone operation because I just think they knew they couldn't do as much of that last year. And I think and so if Mahogany can bring a little bit of that that, that umph, you know, some of that power back, I think they can be a little bit more of a diverse run game again, which that's when we've seen the best of guys like Jamir Gibbs and David Montgomery. So incredible watching them be able to slot different players in there.

Again, Mahogany comes in in those two games. And the offensive line doesn't really miss a beat. Like it's a similar sort of group, even with a rookie six-round pick coming in and having to play. And some of it is just the timing that that group plays with. Like when you watch him and like Taylor Decker work together on double teams, how just in tune he is with when he has to come off of that stuff, when he has to climb to the second level, how square he is in those moments? Like it's funny because when you watch him,

he's a little bit sloppy and a little bit overaggressive in some areas, but not in others. Like sometimes young players, when they're in space, they're looking for those kill shots. Like, that's what they want. And he's actually very in control in those moments. But sometimes in close quarters, he would get a little bit over aggressive. He'd get a little bit sloppy. He'd get a little bit over his feet. And so if there was all, if every single instance of him was, oh, we got like a bull in a china shop here.

Like, we got to rein this in. I think I'd be a little bit more concerned. but it's not. It's only in specific instances. And then you watch what he was in the regular season game and then what he was in the playoff game. And that stuff got cleaned up. Like literally over the course of like six to eight weeks, he was so much better like keeping his feet, keeping his feet moving in true past sets. And so even that level of improvement from the first glimpse to the second just makes me really hopeful about what he can be going into his second year. And the tight area stuff is always just harder. Like it's just because things are happening so much. faster that you can understand why that would be hard for a young player. Whereas to me, the stuff where you're going for kill shots at the second level, taking wrong angles, like,

that to me is almost just, it's like not that it can't be fixed, but it to me is more like an inherent misunderstanding of the position at times. Like I think that's been part of the frustration with a guy like Zion Johnson, right? It's like he physically has all of the tools to be a good player. But sometimes you see him climb to the second level and he's just like overshooting a guy because he's just trying to take him out. And it's like, you didn't need to do that. And I think obviously the Lions coaching staff has gotten it through to a lot of these young players that if you just do your job, it's everything's going to sort itself out. That is such a good comparison because when I watch Mahogany and I think that he is already

filling in a lot of the gaps that Zion Johnson hasn't been able to up to this point in his career. Like Mahogany being able, keeping his eyes out for when a stunt is going to be coming back to him in his first start. That's something that, you know, we're now three years into Zion Johnson's career and that's not happening very often. again, I think that goes back to coaching and just how well prepared this unit is. But when you combine that aspect of it, Hank Fraley coming back with a guy in Mahogany who has

real physical skills, I think that this is a unit that is going to be closer to the top of the league than the middle, even with some of the changes that they're undergoing this year. And I think Mahogany is going to be one of the guys that drives that for the Lions. All right, before we get to the rest of these, let's take our first quick break. All right, Derek, what's your next one here? All right, so mine is less about, is this unit going to be good and more about can this player help them achieve the ceiling that they want to? And that to me is Bill's safety, Colbishop. How many times did we talk last year about how, man, this Bill's defense has a lot, but the safeties are just not helping them out, especially in like run defense, right?

Like they're tackling, especially in, what was it, that Colts game where Jonathan Taylor went crazy. I still have nightmares about it. It still makes me wake up in a cold sweat. Isn't it funny how there are just some like random, almost inconsequential games every season where you just, there's something burned into your memory about it. And for that it was it was the realization that like, oh, the bill safeties might not be good enough when they need them. And so that's why Cole Bishop needs to be really good. And I went back and watched him. I tried to find out like, okay, how much better can he really be than some of the other guys that they were playing at safety last year?

And I think when I watch him, there is some stuff that I like. I think you can clearly see that he's taken well to the coaching that Sean McDermott has done. Like this has always been a safety room where you have to be smart to play in the safety room. Like when they were at their best with Jordan Poyer and Micah Hyde, they were some of the sharpest dudes that you ever, that are not ever, but like they were some of the sharpest safeties in the league. And I do think Cole Bishop has brought some of that. I think especially on the back end, he does a really good job of making sure he's staying on top of routes, which is really important.

Like this is a defense that kind of lives on like we don't want to give up the explosives. and I think he clearly understands that and he's done a good job of that. There also were just instances where I think if he gets, you know, the term, if he's even, he's leaving. If you get even with Cole Bishop, you're probably going to outrun him.

And I know he ran really well at the combine, but like functionally when you watch him on the field, I think his speed is probably average. And so maybe that can come into play a little bit. And then I thought his run defense and tackling was a little bit of a mixed bag. Like he is extremely willing. expected you to say. Well, and it's better than we got from the bill's safety last,

most of the bill's safeties last year, right? We're like, so he's, he's really willing to come down and to hit and even to take on guards. Like, there are some instances where they ask him to be like to roll down as the hook player. And then, you know, when you're rolling down into the hook, you're, you're playing like the B gap in run defense. And he's willing to take on guards and help with that stuff. So I think he brings that level of physicality. I just don't love the way he tackles. He does a lot of stopping and breaking down, which is just a huge pet peeve of of mine. Like, I run through the tackle.

And so maybe he can improve on that next year. So he is a little bit of a mixed bag, but I saw enough there that I don't know if he's ever going to be a difference making player, but I do believe that he can be some degree better than what they got last year. And that could be enough to unlock some of the other pieces on the defense, especially if the front is what we wanted to be. So that was, that's the exact point that I was about to bring up, is that you hope that these safeties with the amount of investment they've put into the front and with the amount

of like potentially penetrating disruptive players they now have as part of that rotation. And a lot of them are young. You know, it may not come together in year one, but they've got a much deeper rotation there now than they had last year. Are we going to have the safeties left out to dry in space as often in 2025 as we had in 2024 if the front is better this year? And I think that is the bet they're probably making. It probably is.

And again, even if it's around the same level of getting. getting them hung out to drive, but Cole Bishop is just 10% better at taking the right angles and taking on tight ends if he really needs to than some of the previous safeties were. Again, that's not going to be enough to make the bills a top five defense again, but it might be enough to help them go from how they're going to get blasted in January again to like, oh, no, they might be able to hang and might have some answers. What did you think about him just in terms of that disguise-centric DNA that that back end wants to incorporate?

Just him being a player where you can do a lot of the. things in coverage on the back end of your defense. Yeah, I mean, I think they intentionally draft and sign safeties who don't have a superpower and are a little bit of the jack of all trade types. And I do think he fits into that. Like I think in those moments where, you know, obviously they do a lot of starting in too high and then they'll rotate into whatever they want to do. And whenever he has to come off the hash and get into the center field, again, I think

he does a really good job of staying on top of routes and understanding like, you know, where he needs to be and making sure he's not getting. giving up the big plays. I think he does a decent job of that. When he has to come down and be a run defender, I thought he did a good job of that. The only, the biggest criticism I would probably have is I think when he was playing some of their cover two and some of their quarter stuff,

when he had to drive on outbreakers, I think he was a little bit slow to do that. But again, if that's something that he can fix a little bit, just get a little bit more comfortable seeing those route combinations in year two. I could totally see him, again, not where he's going to drive on a bunch of those and pick five of them. off a year, but at least squeeze that air a little bit and take away some of those completions.

That defense in general, just another group I'm interested to ask people about because there's so many young players. And so just getting a gauge, and I'll be there early August. So they'll have been practicing for a couple weeks. They've had pads on for a little while. Just getting a gauge of like, where is so and so? You know, how, who in the defensive line do you feel like is going to be a bigger part of things early on than maybe somebody else? I think it's just a group with a lot of moving parts and questions. And I think they've done a good job of kind of intentionally turning over a lot of the rotational pieces, especially up front, that it's a group that I think could go a bunch of

different ways. Like if you told me the bills had the sixth best defense in the league this year because some of those young guys hit, I do think that's potentially on the table. And that's just not really the type of group we were talking about last year. Well, exactly. And not even just in terms of quality, but it's, I felt like for the first like three-ish years of the Josh Allen area, you kind of didn't have to think. about the bill's defense it was just like you know it was a lot of the same actors and you just knew

they were going to be that seventh best defense in the league didn't have to think about it knew what they were going to run and that was going to be that but they really have over the last two years undergone a huge huge makeover and this this might be the year that it starts to finally coales my next one here is speaking of kind of fringe aFC contenders i'm going with chris jenkins from the bengals i think that he's indicative of a larger idea around this Bengals defense. And that's that the young guys under Luanna-Rummo either didn't play enough or didn't play well enough. And we need to shift that as we move into the Al-Golden era.

And with the Chris Jenkins thing, you can't really say the first part. I mean, he played like 550 snaps last year for this defense. He just didn't play very well. And we're trying to project the Bengals defense in 2024 into 2025. and how can this group go from a bottom five-ish unit to merely below average in order to make good on what the offense can be? Guys like Chris Jenkins, I think, have to fuel that. And you go back and you watch him. And I don't know how much you watched him last year, but it's an interesting deployment of the defensive tackles in that system for a couple different reasons.

They're doing a lot of funky pressure stuff on passing downs. And when you're doing that, I was talking to a defensive coach about that this week where when you have that sort of approach, If you're running a simulated pressure and say let's you're dropping one end off, the front is inherently going to have to shift one direction. Like you're not just penetrating in the gap that you're lined up in. So you're setting your defensive alignment up to not really be disruptive players if you're playing that way. And so when you look at the Bengals, they did a lot of that.

And Chris Jenkins had 11 pressures and 500 snaps. So maybe you can explain away some of the lack of pass rush production. But when you watch, when you think about that sort of unit and the guys being used that way, you're space eating run blocking players. Like that's what you are doing. That's what you are being asked to do. And I just don't think he did that very well. And the couple games I went back and watched in the back half of the season, you know,

the Denver game maybe isn't the best indication. He's having to play against Quinn Miners and that Broncos offensive line. But they got pushed around in that game. And so if he's not going to be a difference making pass rusher and he's not going to be somebody that's stout against the run, what is he supposed to be? And so I think him being a question mark and a lot of these youngish players on the Bengals defense being question marks coming into this year, the answers we get on them in this version of the defense is ultimately going to determine not only what the Bengals

defense can be, but what the Bengals can be, period. Yeah, he to me is, I mean, he's really the only, like, young player now who's even, like, reporting to camp. Obviously, Shamar Stewart isn't. So like they really do need him. Miles Murphy is moderately young still. That's a good point. I just feel like we've been doing the Miles Murphy thing for a bit too long.

He's in year three, so he doesn't apply to this conversation. Yeah, he doesn't get to apply. But Chris Jenkins to me is like the password stuff is actually a good point that, especially if you're a young player and you're constantly being deployed in a system like this where they're asking you to stunt a lot, to twist a lot. It's not just that those plays are kind of inherently designed to get somebody else, you know, open, so to speak, in terms of the pressure. It's also like then you just get fewer regular pass rush snaps to like hone your skill

and develop that. And so I think you could start to explain a way why that hurt him and maybe them bringing in Al Golden and running some simpler pressure packages is going to help him there. I think the run defense is more important. And the reason I say that is that I think if you squint and want to believe that this Bengals defense can be decent, it's because the secondary has some promising young players, right like with um you know dks hill dj turner like some of those guys like if they can really play to their level that would help them a lot it it would be nice if those guys could be in like more true

you know passing downs where you know the offense has to pass instead of just if if if the run defense is going to constantly allow the defense to be in second and four and then you can't even pressure and then the secondary is just left out to dry all the time this defense is probably going to be bad again and so that's why jenkins i think really does need to step up as a run defender. And it's like he, Robert, you remember when we were doing all of through the draft season? We were talking about Kenneth Grant. And I think you struggled with him a little bit.

And I did as well because he was a 330 pound guy who didn't always take on blocks the way that you would expect of a 330 pound guy. I think Jenkins obviously is a little bit smaller. He's closer to the 310 range. But I feel a little bit of that with him where he has the requisite size. And you see the flashes of strength where he should be a guy who can who can take on blocks effectively, whether it's, you know, downblocks on gap stuff, getting four hands on him on duo, whatever it is. And I think he just consistently struggled with that. And I think that was why, you know, I think two years ago, we felt like this Bengals linebackers core was good enough. And I think last year with the deteriorating defensive line and just a lot of young players, we felt like they weren't good enough anymore.

And obviously part of that Logan Wilson had missed some time as well. But I think them not having the sturdiness out of some of their young defensive tackles, Chris Jenkins included. I think that really, really started to just have this cast. skate effect of the defense from the bottom up. It's funny how those two things play off of each other because you go back and you watch Chris Jenkins from last year and there are plays where the linebackers aren't triggering fast enough and that allows the double team part of combos to stay on the defensive line longer than they should. And so it's making his job harder because the linebackers aren't coming downhill the way

that they should. And so it all plays off of one another. And I think that when you look at Chris Jenkins, it's funny that you mention him and Kenneth Grant. I mean, he played Kenneth Grant's role in that Michigan defense. opposite Mason Graham a year before Kenneth Grant did. And I do think that he has the requisite skill set to hold up as that sort of player. I just think when you watch a lot of the young guys on that defense, and maybe I'm projecting

a little bit, but I think you can see some of this. You can kind of see the gears turning. Like they're just not playing fast. They're not playing with urgency. Like I think there's a lot of thinking going on, even from a defensive line perspective, because of all the things they're asking those guys to do from a slanting, stunting, reading blocks perspective. And so just allowing those guys to kind of weaponize their skill sets, play a little bit faster,

play a little bit more confident, play a little bit freer, I do think there's a path forward for somebody like this. I don't know what his ceiling is as a pass rusher, but I think the hope is exactly like you said. B.J. Hill, T.J. Slate, McKinley Jackson, Chris Jenkins, that's your rotation of four interior players. I don't think there is a eight-sack guy among those players. but if you can have four interchangeable pieces, you know, Slayton and McKinley Jackson being more run stuffing than Chris Jenkins is, if you can have those four kind of interchangeable pieces,

consistently be solid run defenders where you're in more second and eighths than second and fours, then the vision of the defense starts to come together. I don't think he has to be Chris Jones or Braden Fiske or Kobe Turner in terms of the past rush production for this to come together. he just has to become a reliable piece in the way that some of these young Bengals defenders just haven't been to this point. I want to ask you that like we did with Rook Aurora. What is your confidence level that Chris Jenkins does get to that kind of level? I think it can happen.

I think that he can become one of those types of guys. Again, maybe it's not a disruptive penetrating type player, but he can eat up space, take on double teams, just be a reliable player in the way that they need him to be. The same way he wasn't Michigan, right? Like, he was never drafted to be a star, but he was a top 50 pick. And if your top 50 picks aren't making up the foundation and the connective tissue of these units, then it's a non-starter. Like, you just have no shot if these guys consistently are not contributing to who you want to be on that side of the ball.

And I think that's why, in my mind, he's just indicative of a larger question about this Bengals defense. Yeah, definitely. All right, we got two-ish more that we're going to hit. before I say like eight other names as we close this out. But before we do that, we're going to take one more quick break. All right, what's your next one here? A little bit torn between two NFC West players, but I think I'm going to go with the one that I kind of most wanted to see work out

because I think it would make that team the most interesting. I'm going to go with Renardo Green, the corner out of San Francisco because... Interesting. Was Byron Murphy the other one? No, actually, but it was a trench player in the NFC West. Byron Murphy, I've already chocked up to like, he's going to be good. So it almost like doesn't. I'm just like, he's explosive.

Mike McDonnell to go to his job. I don't even think about that one. But Renardo Green. So I think obviously this offseason, we've done so much talking about how the Niners completely retooled their front. I mean, they drafted four guys, I believe. Up front, obviously their first round pick. And Mikel Williams was a front player.

Like, we talked so much about how their run defense was bad last year. They bled a lot of depth along the pass rusher. all that stuff. And while all of that is true, and I do think the front is probably the most important part of the Niners kind of fixing the puzzle here on defense, I do think that the secondary is, you know, they're relying on a lot of younger players now. Malik Mustafa filling in for Talanoa Hufanga. Jaya Brown is only going to be a third year player. And now Renardo Green, I think they kind of need to be a really good second outside corner. And he played about half of last season. And when I went back and watched him,

He has some obvious limitations because of the way that he's built. You know, he's, he's a guy who's just under six foot. He's pretty skinny. He's like 186 pounds. And you see that sometimes. Like on, on some of those dig routes where guys are pushing off right at the break and cutting in, he's probably going to lose a step because he just doesn't have the physicality to do that.

And then there are some moments where, you know, if a guy's running a bullet slant in press coverage, you can kind of just shove him away. And I think that that's going to cause some issues for him. But I do think his ability to mirror guys. whether it's in-press coverage, whether it's down the field a little bit, to really keep up at the catch point, which to me was the most impressive part. You know, he is a skinnier, smaller guy. But when he needs to find the ball at the catch point,

I thought he actually did a really, really good job and was really aggressive punching the ball out and locating it and all that stuff. And then as a run defender, you know, he's only 186 pounds, but he uses all of it. Like, he's pretty active when he needs to tackle on screens and come in and fit the run. So he's, I don't know if he's ever going to ascend to the level where he becomes their number one corner and is a great player. But if he can take any degree of step forward and we expect Lenore on the other side to be a quality player,

this secondary goes from just a lot of moving parts going into last year to like, hey, man, they've got some pretty good young players here. All right. So I'm picking up on something with you. We had a segment on one of our previous shows we didn't end up getting to that was going to show your excitement about Michael Williams. Are you like sneaky, optimistic about the Niners defense overall with Sala? I feel like that you're building to that. I'm coming around to it.

Like the more I think going into the draft and going into the offseason, I was like, God, they have nobody. And then the draft happens. And I'm like, okay, I love Michael Williams, but it's a lot of young players here. And then I watch the defense a little bit more. I think about how I believe Sala is still a good coach. Like I, you know, we talked about it a number of times during the season. And I was like, he got fired because everybody else was incompetent in the whole Aaron Rogers thing.

But I think he is a good coach. I think bringing him back into the fold. Hopefully Fred Warner is probably going to be healthy. And I think that's going to go a long way. If Malik Mustafa can stay on the field, like that's going to go a long way. I just, there is some projection because it's, you know, like seven of their starters are going to be guys who are on rookie contracts, basically. But I trust the coaching and I like a lot of the young players they drafted. So I'm kind of getting there.

Yeah. I mean, how the interior pieces come together. and how quickly those guys can be competent as rookies. I think that's the biggest question. And then obviously Michael Williams, because obviously they traded for Bryce Huff, but the whole thing about Bryce Huff is he's not an early down player. It's fun to me when you watch,

when you look at that combination of Michael Williams and Bryce Huff, to me it tracks and makes a lot of sense for 2025 specifically because I think Michael Williams, based on the length and the way that he plays. And sometimes we do this too quickly, where we say, oh, well, his floor will be this, right, like early on. This X will give him a floor.

But with Michael Williams, I do think you can make a case that the length will give him as a floor as a run defender as a rookie. And then you combine that with Bryce Huff's skill set. And if you like kind of make an amalgamation of those two guys across from Nick Bosa, it actually turns into a really serviceable number two edge player. And then you combine that with some of the young pieces in the secondary. And it's like, I don't know, I can kind of get there. Like, I don't think that they're the fifth best defense in the league.

but I think they can be significantly better than they were last year. Exactly. Like they don't have to be the, you know, when they were at their peak three, four years ago, they don't have to be that. But if they can be better and I don't know, out of the five young guys that they're going to be asking to make serious contributions this year, if two of them are like clearly good players, I think this defense could be kind of above average.

And if we, if this defense gets to like kind of above average and then the offense goes back to something close to what it's been when they're not all decimated by injury, this is a really good team again. I think this is like a kind of a tangent. This is the team I most regret the things I said like a month ago. I kind of think this team is going to be really good again. I will say, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle where I think I have been too quick over the course of this offseason spring and summer to just give them the benefit

of the doubt. And I think you've probably been too quick to overreact to what last. year was it's likely some blend of those two like i don't think they're immediately going to go back to being one of the best three offenses in the league if they're a little bit healthier but i also think there's a lot of earned equity from what this team has put together over the last five or so years yeah exactly and now again like with the offense it's always been easy because kail shanhan right but now with the defense it's like well we have proof of concept that robert salla being here has been good for them so it's i i can buy into it again my last one here and again i'm

another offensive lineman, you can say so many offensive linemen if you wanted to for this exercise. Here's a few more that I didn't get to, but absolutely could have. Patrick Paul in Miami. If Patrick Paul comes in and is a good left tackle or like a quality left tackle from day one, and that allows the slotting on Miami's offensive line to make more sense, is this a group that can kind of sneak up on us, surprise us, give Miami a little bit more flexibility offensively, and have that offense again, when the quarterback is healthy, be one of the best units in the league.

I think that's on the table for them. Olu Foshano, right? If Olufushano comes in and takes a big step as a second-year player, that Jets' offensive line has a lot of pieces that are easy to get excited about pretty quickly. Rookie right tackle is a whole different conversation. But if the rookie right tackle can be your fifth best starter as a top 10 pick in year one, that's a group that I think can sneak up on some people. Jackson Powers Johnson. If he's going to be a better player in year two with some of their young pieces on that offensive line, what's that group going to look like?

And then Tyler Guyton and Dauce. Tyler Guyton has all the physical talent in the world. I mean, him and Patrick Paul both. Exceptional athletes can be, and I think Guyton showed this in year one, is a very good mover in space, just sloppy and inexperienced. They bring Clayton Adams in in year two for him. I think that some of the ways they might be able to weaponize him in the run game. You combine that with, again, young pieces on the rest of the offensive line. I think there's a ceiling for that group.

The one I'm going with, though, just because this unit has been a source of fascination over the last couple of years in bad ways is Blake Fisher in Houston. And with Guyton, I think it's, again, how much are we realizing the ceiling for that group? You know, how can he be – like, you already have Tyler Smith. We already have Cooper Bibi as like a solid option. I think that the calculus is different in Dallas. For Houston, it's how many question marks do you have? Right?

How many guys do you know what they are? And I think that's where my mind goes with Blake Fisher. Going back and watching, you know, some of his starts from the back half of last year, I'm not overly excited about him, right? I don't think there's really a ceiling with him as a player. But I think you can argue that he can get to a certain floor. He's not overly powerful. He's not a great athlete.

But sometimes when you're taking those offensive linemen in the second round, what you're seeking out is, can we get starting level play? Can he be somebody that's reliable at that spot? And when you watch Blake Fisher play, he's really long and he does have decent foot quickness. He can get to his spot. And so if he can weaponize that length and kind of clean some of this stuff up heading into his second year, and he can be a guy where in true dropback situation,

he's a reliable pass protector. That helps start to change the calculus of what this group can be and what we can expect from the Texans' offensive line this year. So you can say a six, seven offensive linemen if you wanted to, he was the guy I landed on just because that Texan's offensive line has been front of mind for way too long. I mean, he in terms of how much could this change a team's fortune is the most important one.

So he's definitely the best pick for it. I'm glad you bring up the length, like because I think, think this is not a novel idea, but length to me for offensive tackles, like, that's your margin for error. Exactly. That's the floor setter to me. If you have it, it can get you out of problems. It can get you out of trouble.

And so the issue with when I watched Fisher, though, is I felt like, and this makes sense for a rookie and especially one in an offensive line that did not seem to be coach very well, he just was mentally slow a lot. I felt like on some of the offensive, like obviously their past protection stuff was just terrible last year. But even in the run game, just, you know, really committing to getting to certain spots at the second level. Like he could do it physically. They were just, it seemed like his head was always spinning.

And again, for a guy who was thrown in maybe when he wasn't ready in an offensive line that was already terrible around him, I understand how all that stuff could hurt. So I think next year what you're looking for is if he can speed things up mentally a little bit and just get to a spot where he doesn't feel like he's swimming. I think that combined with the length, you can, again, I don't know if he's going to be. going to be a pro bowl tackle for you. But if he can get from struggling rookie to, okay, this is a completely fine right tackle to have out there. He's the 17th best right tackle in the league, and that's going to be perfectly acceptable. I think that's a huge, huge win for this Texans' offensive line. That's exactly the type of range that you're looking at. And he's not the same

player as this guy just because his frame is a little bit different. But the guy I go back to when I'm thinking about what's the best case scenario here, just in terms of slotting among tackles in the league. It's like what Donovan Smith eventually became for the bucks, right? And they're both second round picks. So it's like, can you get to a place where I don't have to worry about you, where I'm not sitting up at night being like, oh my God, like what is Blake going to do against Joey Bosa tomorrow? Like, if that's not how you're living as Nick Cayley this year, I think that's a win for the Texans. And I do think that's potentially on the table. I don't think he's ever going to be a top half of the league tackle just based on the physical traits he's bringing into the position. And that's a

combination where the fact that you're technically a little bit unsound and you're not bringing a high ceiling to the to the party, it's always a little bit of a concern. But I do think that with the length and with some of his movement skills, he can be somebody with a solid and a floor where it's giving you at least one more, if not spectacular, then acceptable answer on an offensive line that has a lot of questions. Yeah. And again, they're, they're kind of shooting for acceptable for a lot of these guys. but if he can get there, if one of the other young players can get there, and then Cam Robinson is what you paid for, then like the offensive line does go from completely terrible to like,

okay, we can be the 22nd best offensive line in the league, and we can actually have a functional run game this year. We can actually protect CJ Stroud enough. So Fisher is definitely a good pick. Before, I got to say, there was one offensive lineman. I was certain you were going to bring up and you didn't, which was the other NFC. West guy I was talking about, which is Isaiah Adams from the Cardinals.

Oh, that's a really good one. Yeah, that's a really good one. Here's what I'd say about that. I think it's a similar discussion to the Blake Fisher discussion where you're shooting for a floor with Isaiah Adams. If you can get to a place where he's as good for you as Will Hernandez was two years ago,

I think that's a positive outcome for the Cardinals. And so that to me isn't quite as exciting or sexy of a discussion, but I do think he's probably worth mention. Yeah, he just, I was, you know, I was just surprised when you ran through like seven guys, because I know you've talked about Isaiah Adams a number of times before. So I was just, I thought for sure when we were doing the show, he was going to be one of your guys. There are plenty of others that we could mention.

Like, Ameris Mims applies to this conversation. Like if Ameris Mims can be a star, it changes the calculus of the Bengals offensive line. Troy Fontenu. If Troy Fontenu can be a good player and then you start to change the sliding of the Steelers offensive line. the one that I did not mention just because I don't want to spend more time thinking about it than I have to because it'll make me uncomfortable. What is Roma Dunezay in year two?

Right? Like that's going to be a potential pivot point for the Bears' offensive line. And the guy that actually was the catalyst for wanting to do this that we did not mention, but I think is worth at least throwing out there. What is Dallas Turner in year two for the Vikings? This is a guy they moved heaven and earth to get and then wasn't a big contributor in year one.

has all the talent in the world, if Dallas Turner can come in and be a splash player for that Vikings defense, combined with what they have on the interior now, does that front suddenly become like the scariest thing you have to worry about on a week-to-week basis as an offensive coordinator? Yeah, Turner, I just threw my hands up, because at least with some of the other guys that didn't play much, it's like, okay, that was probably injury,

or they were a fourth-round pick, so of course maybe they didn't play that much. And then at least some of the other guys, it's like, okay, Rook-a-Roro, played like eight games but that's more than Dallas Turner gave us so at least I had some things to go back and watch where Turner you kind of just you just have to throw your hands up and hope the next year he can be better in that and that floor is just going to be able to get something out of him. Yeah a lot of the guys we picked and I think this is just a natural way to do the exercise where

like first and second round picks. Mahogany is obviously an exception but he's going to be a starter and so they're treating him from a development perspective and a timeline perspective like he is a day two pick. And so that's the fact that. The fact that's, that we chose from that bucket, I think is pretty telling. Those are the types of guys that you expect to be impact players heading into year two. So, you know, we had three each, but we ended up mentioning at least like 12 or 13 guys on this show, which is always the goal. Yeah, I started with like a dozen and had to whittle it down from like, is this guy too good

already to even have this discussion? And then it was just like kind of had to whittle it down from there. Like I started with like Edron Cooper at one point, but I was like, he already played a lot and it's like kind of good. It's not even worth it. Yeah. That's not in the spirit of the exercise because I think what we're talking about here is guys that could potentially kind of go either way and what that would mean for the unit. And I think Adrian Cooper is probably too far to one side of the spectrum already.

All right. Really enjoyed that. Hope you guys did as well. We will be back tomorrow on Saturday with our first beat writer notebook of the off season. I'm going to be making 24 training camp stops. We've got beat writers. I think at about 20 of, those teams. So each Saturday over the next month or so, we're going to be collecting those

conversations that I'm having and dropping them into the feed. We've done that at times over the years. Very excited to get back to those. So tomorrow is going to be our first version of that. We've got Colton Pouncey from the Lions. We've got Daniel Popper from the Chargers. I'm hoping to talk to John Moshoda today. And then we're going to have those coming to you weekly all throughout training camp. So very much looking forward to that. And then we will be back with four shows again next week before dropping that training camp notebook on Saturday. So be on the lookout for plenty of stuff coming from us over the next month or so. For now, that's all we got.

I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.