The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Stephon Gilmore traded, Justin Fields named starter and the spotlight on Kyler Murray with Lindsay Jones + a Cincinnati Bengals team visit with Paul Dehner Jr.

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Robert Mays and Lindsay Jones break down the Panthers deal for Stephon Gilmore, the Bears naming Justin Fields the starter and the spotlight on Kyler Murray and the undefeated Cardinals. Then, The Athletic’s Paul Dehner Jr. joins the show to talk about the Bengals’ surprisingly good defense, Joe Burrow’s progression and their Week 5 matchup with the Packers. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The presenting sponsor for today's episode of the Athletic Football Show is Visa, a network working for everyone. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today is Thursday, October 7th. Great show for you guys today. Paul Deiner Jr., one of our Bengals writers, is going to join us a little bit later for this week's team visit, talking about the surprising start that's going on in Cincinnati. Before we do that, though, I'm very excited to welcome my good friend, Lindsay Jones.

Lindsay, how you doing? I'm great. I'm really excited. This week five slate is pretty awesome. And it's been my favorite kind of week in the NFL is when there's just weird shit going on everywhere. What a morning. What a morning. My timeline was just interspur.

I woke up this morning to this Define Gilmore is being released news, which we're going to get to in a second. And then, obviously, all the stuff with Urban Meyer, him just coming out and doing more press conferences, which is an endless stream of nonsense. So it was one of those jam-packed mornings on the timeline, and we're going to dig into that. Let's start with the Gilmore trade. Happened pretty fast. That's one of those moments where it's obviously floated out there that the Patriots are going to release him, which is kind of a little bait thrown in the water for every team in the NFL. It's like, all right, wait a second. Wait a second. We saw this happen with Rodney Hudson in the spring, if you guys can remember. It was leaked that the Raiders are going to release him. The Cardinals ended up trading a third-round

pick to get him. In this case, it is the Carolina Panthers trading a 2023 sixth round pick to go get Stefan Gilmore, guy two years removed from the defensive player of the year award. Kind of a surprise, but I guess not really. I mean, some of the other teams thrown around with the Packers, the Chiefs, the Bucks, obviously. What was your reaction, Lindsay, when you heard Carolina was the team that went out and made this happen? Yeah, I mean, I liked it. I mean, this is a team that's already been aggressive in addressing it secondary. I mean, I have Obviously, they traded for C.J. Henderson. I believe that was, was that last week?

Time is a flat circle, especially, you know, the way that Jaguars News has been moving recently. But this is a team that clearly knows that it needs to address its secondary. Scott Fitterer has been aggressive in doing so, and it didn't cost them that much. So, you know, I really like it for, you know, a really young, aggressive defense. And look, Stefan Gilmore has some quite, he was available for a reason. He was available because he was hurt and unable to play so far for. the Patriots right now and because he couldn't come to an agreement on a contract extension. Sounds like he's going to play for the Panthers under his current contract.

It's not going to be an immediate contract extension coming for him. But look, guys of Stefan Gilmore's caliber just don't become available regularly, especially not for a future sixth round draft pick in the first week of October. So I love this move for a Carolina team that, you know, kind of realized last week against Dallas that it had some defensive deficiencies. They have some injury issues, obviously. And I love the message that that is sending that they are willing to go out and do stuff now. They think that they're ready to compete now and they're going to go out and do it. It doesn't seem like a lot for Stefan Gilmore, but this is also a unique case where by trading him,

he had a decent amount of money left on his contract this year. There aren't a lot of teams with just $6 million in space sitting around at this stage of the season. The Panthers were one of those teams. They had $19 million in cap space, so they were able to go out and make this move. And it's being framed as kind of a win now thing for Carolina. I don't think it has to be framed that way. I mean, this is a team in 2022 that's 29th in cap spending on defense. You look at the core of players they have on that side of the ball. In 2022, J.C. Horn, C.J. Henderson, Brian Burns and Jeremy Chin are slated to make $12 million combined. Combined. This is a really, really young core.

That's like what Aaron Donald makes in an afternoon. Yes. It's a really young core that's not expensive. So now if you're the Panthers and you say, all right, let's add Gilmore to the mix. Let's sign him to an extension at some point. And now you have a core next year and a secondary next year that includes Horn, Henderson, and Stefan Gilmore. J.C. Horn had played about half of his snaps in the slot over the Panthers' final two games before he got hurt. there's a chance that they see those guys all fitting together.

And the Henderson thing is still a nice role. I mean, who knows how that's going to end up working out. But for a team that's just trying to add talent that needed cornerback help that I think has a chance to be a pretty good defense this year and was struggling last week without J.C. Horn, I think it makes a lot of sense. So I think they're planning for both now and for the future. And if you have the money and you have the need, I mean, all of it makes sense to me. I think it's a tough break for some of those teams that were really hoping he was going to get released. Because if you're the Packers, you can sign him to $750,000 base salary deal this year, move some of the money to next year.

There's way less flexibility in the ways that you can move the money around with him being traded. And that's why a team like Carolina had the advantage. Yeah. I mean, you could see this morning it was like, I mean, how many people, luckily I was not one of them early this morning, wrote those stories about where should Stefan Gilmore sign and the eight teams that should sign him as a free agent. and Carolina swooped in and jumped to the front of the line and signed him. And obviously, I think this is a place that Gilmore is going to be happy to go. He is from just outside of Charlotte.

I think his Twitter handles even like Rock Hill kid. He actually lives right down the street from Scott Fitterer, which is kind of a funny little thing in this, that they actually already have this preexisting relationship. And one of the reporters, David Newton, who covers the Panthers for ESPN at the end of the press conference this afternoon, asked David Newton if he has any neighbors who are tackles who might be able to help fill in because look if he's just recruiting his neighbors at this point. I mean, so it's a pretty smart, a pretty smart strategy. I would say, though, the one other thing that's important to remember just logistically,

because this was a trade, Stefan Gilmore is still on the PUP list, physically and able to perform list. If he had been cut and signed some more as a free agent, he could have potentially played this week. But because it's a trade, same contract, same, all of that sort of stuff, he remains on the PUP list, cannot play until after week six. So that's not that far. That's two more games, and the expectation is that he is going to be healthy,

and the Panthers believe he will be able to play in week seven. I mean, next year, they have $30 million in space with a couple moves. If they move on from a couple of those offensive line contracts that they sign, they absolutely can fit Stefan Gilmore at the sticker price under their salary cap if they want to. They have some reasonably big deals. Obviously, you know, Christian McCaffrey had that big extension. Sam Donald's going to make about $19 million next year, which for a quarterback salary is more than doable.

Shaq Thompson's on a sizable extension. They signed Taylor-Mote into that deal. But for the most part, this is still a team with a decent amount of financial flexibility. And there are worse places to wield that financial flexibility than a guy likes to find Gilmore, even at the stage of his career. So I appreciate it. I think that it, for both now and for the future, makes a lot of sense. Let's stay in the southeast with a situation that does not make a lot of sense.

We talked about this yesterday with Mitch, just the player perspective on what's happening with Urban Meyer, but you wrote about what's happening with Urban Meyer this week. You've covered the league for a long time. You've been around. I don't want to date you, but you've covered the league for a while. You've been around. You've seen stuff. It's fine.

I'm old. It's fine. Can you remember anything like this? No. I mean, there have been other, like, little scandals. I was texting with somebody about this and let, lest we get into politics or anything here. But it does kind of have the feeling of, like, parts of the Trump. presidency where there's just a constant stream of like crazy stuff.

What's the horse doing? What's the horse doing? Yeah. And where any of those little things, any of the one thing that has happened so far to the Jags would be like a major issue, a major story anywhere else in 31 other teams. But they just kind of keep stacking up. So when I wrote earlier this week, I guess I wrote Monday afternoon, I kind of just went through and did all the bullet points of like, Let's just go back to January and let's recap all of the stuff that has already happened. All of the mistakes, the missteps, the question marks, the unorthodox things, you know, ranging from, you know, hiring Chris Doyle, the disgraced strength coach from Iowa and just thinking he could slip it in to a press release and nobody would notice and he could just hire whoever he wanted.

This is a guy who had just been fired from Iowa after credible allegations of racism and bullying. You know, he got calls from people in the league office. the Fritz-Pollard alliance was like, wait, wait, wait, what are you doing? And within a couple of days, Chris Doyle resigned. Like that was a, that was kind of like a, that should have been a bigger story, I think that it was. But it was the week after the Super Bowl and, you know, okay, Urban's going to try to do things his way.

Maybe he'll learn from this. But it's just what do we say about that when it happened? We said this was a guy who was so used to operating his little kingdoms. And that's how college football worked for him at these stops. and he was not going to be able to do that here. He was not going to be able to just say, you know what, this is my little world. I can rule it how I see fit. That's not how it works in the NFL for multiple reasons.

And now this is another example of that. Yes. There's been a lot to unpack over the last few days from when this video kind of first went viral on Saturday night while we were all watching college football. From, okay, what was actually happening in this video? Obviously, it's a very bad look for Urban Meyer. This is something that obviously he's going to have to address with his family. But to me, the more troubling part, the biggest issue, and I think the issue that Urban Meyer is now having with his bosses and with the Khan family in Jacksonville is that he lied about it.

He thinks that we're stupid, that we're all going to see this video, multiple angles of this video and just say, oh, these are some fans that just were trying to be silly and get me on the dance floor. And we're just supposed to believe that and move on and say, okay, Urban, you're right. You're right. And that's just not how it works. And that's what he came out and said. That's probably what he initially said to Shad Khan. And then it became pretty clear that that wasn't the case. It's what he said to the media and probably wasn't fully truthful with the people around him

before he went out and gave that press conference. Because look, with Urban Meyer, this is what he does. It's not necessarily the initial act. That's the problem. It's the cover up. It's the lying about it. I mean, that's what happened with the Zach Smith situation, Ohio State. There's a lot of similarities where he basically comes out and says things that are provably untrue and just expects to get away with it.

And this is one case where I don't think he's going to get away with it. I don't think guys that play for the Jaguars really care what Urban Meyer did at Ohio State. I don't think they really care what Urban Meyer's resume looks like as a college coach. When you have no history of success in the league, when you have no skins on the wall whatsoever, you have to earn that. with the guys in that building. What have they possibly done to earn that at this point? I mean, what has he possibly done to garner respect with the people in that building? And to go 0 and 4 to be a team that has looked lost at times,

and then to not take the team playing home and to just take the weekend off when you can't win a football game. I mean, Mitch talked about it yesterday. He was baffled by it. Everyone in the league is baffled by it. Begin to understand how you could operate that way. I mean, this is, I don't know, I'm just curious, like, what the path forward is here. Like, is there any other outcome here besides them just moving on and saying, you know what, this didn't work?

Like, let's just pull the rip cord. Like, Darryl Bevel can be the coach for the next 12 weeks. It just seems like that might be the best way to handle this. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of legal, complicated stuff that's going on right now. that makes sense. Very curious to know exactly how the contract is written if there are ways that the Jags could get out of this without having to pay him. You know, the cons basically hired Urban Meyer on Urban Meyer's terms.

You know, Urban Meyer kind of had the leverage in that situation. He knew that the Jags really, really wanted him to be their coach. The Jags, for whatever reason, clearly poor ones at this point in hindsight, you know, really, really wanted him. So I think they were willing to give in to a lot of the things that Urban Wire wanted structurally. Salary-wise, power within the organization, those sorts of things. So they have to figure out a way that could we get out. They don't want to just fire him. If they were going to fire him, they would need to fire him for cause.

So at this point, is he going to resign? Is he going to retire? Is he going to take a medical leave? Is he going to try to stick this out? Will the players stick by him? You know, Mike Silver, a NFL network had a lot of reporting earlier this week about the tensions going on within the building and players kind of not respecting him at this point. And, you know, that's the big issue. It's the first week of October.

That's what is just bonkers about this whole thing. Four games. Yeah. I mean, I don't think anybody would have been really surprised if we, if you would have said back in March, oh, it's going to be really rough for Urban Meyer and he's going to lose the locker room. You'd have thought, okay, you'd have thought, okay, it's going to be, you know, the same. 5th. It is the first week of October. There are 12 games to go. That is an entire college football season's worth of. He explained it away by saying he needed to go clear his head. They've played games for a month. It just doesn't happen. He looks miserable. The players are miserable.

I want a free Trevor Lawrence. Trevor Lawrence deserves better. I mean, think of how, like literally how many coaches would line up right now to coach Trevor Lawrence. All of them, right? Like every single offensive coach in America would be like sign me up. Give me that guy. I want to coach this team. And Urban Meyer looks and is acting like he wants to be anywhere but on the sidelines. So it's going to be messy. I think it's probably going to get worse before it gets better for the Jaguars,

unfortunately and their fan base. But yeah, give me a sideline cam on Urban Meyer this weekend against the Tennessee Titans, please. I was watching the Bengals Jags game over again because we're going to talk to Paul. I was like, oh, I'll go back and watch and just see what the Bengals looked like last week. And I was watching the Jags. And I was like, man, they just don't have any good players. It's really, really hard to win in the NFL when you just don't have any good players.

And that's partially their fault. They went out and spent a decent amount of money in free agency this year. And they still just don't have any good players, which is very problematic. Yes, outside of the guy that they had to pick with the number of, one overall pick. Any decision that they had to make outside of that one, they have struggled so far. It is just jarring and they are in a bad, bad way. I feel bad for the people there. All right. Last bit of news here is because we had to talk about this for multiple reasons. Matt Nagy does the correct and just thing and names Justin Fields. The bear starting quarterback

moving forward. A relief. This whole thing has been kind of a mess. It doesn't really matter. I mean, whatever missteps they've had in the messaging with this, I don't really care. Justin Fields had some really nice moments last week. I'm excited to see what he does. The bigger bit of news, though, is that this week, Justin Fields' parents were in town, and they wanted to go out and celebrate after he had received the news. I loved his reaction, by the way. They're like, how did you take the news?

He's like, I don't know. It was cool. I'm glad I'm the guy. He is just like right here all the time, which I sincerely appreciate. But his parents were in town. they wanted to go out and celebrate, he told them that he couldn't because he had to watch tape, and instead he hung out with his dog. Lindsay, have you seen Justin Fields' dog? I have, and he's ridiculously cute.

His name is Uno. And it looks like he's a French bulldog. Yes, that would be my guess. But he's a little, like, dopeier than a French bulldog. Like, his ears are a little bit different in a good way. He's just like, some French bulldogs can be, like, very, like, proper looking and, like, statue-esque. That one, his tongue is hanging out of his mouth all the time. I'm a big fan.

I'm going to hatch a plan to have Molly and Uno be friends, I think. We'll talk about some story ideas offline. I don't want to give them all to our listeners here. But yes, there are some dog-related, certainly some dog-related story ideas. I mean, my favorite story I wrote two years ago was when I went to the 49ers during training camp. And everybody's requesting, like, can I talk to Jimmy Garapolo? Can I talk to George Kittle? And I said, hey, can I talk to Zoe, the team therapy dog?

And it was like a really, really fun story. And now they have two of them. So dogs in the NFL, this is totally, this is totally my lane. But look, do we think, like, did Matt Nagy just, like, finally check his mentions? Did he struggle along with the rest of us to get the game pass and the coaches film to upload? And he finally actually got to watch the all 22 of what happened and said, oh, yeah, this guy actually when we design an offense around him and he's not actually getting bludgeoned to death by a really good Brown's defensive line. Actually, this guy's pretty special. and I think we should probably move forward with him.

This is always going to be the outcome after the way that he played on Sunday. It felt like that's why when he came out and said this week, Maggie, I mean, came out and said this week. Yeah, Andy's still the starter when healthy, it's like, why would you say that? Just don't say that. Just don't say that. Like, that's all you have to say. Just say that and move on. And that's just been the problem is that it doesn't seem like they have an idea of how they've wanted to handle the messaging of this.

And that's why it's been so disjointed. None of that matters anymore. He's going to be the starter. If the game plan looks like it did last week and they try to build this offense through downhill running game, play action shots, with chipping guys, every single aspect that you want it to see, I can be excited about it. This offense with Bill Laser calling the shots looks better. It has over the last two years when he's been given that opportunity. So hopefully, even against teams that aren't the lions, at least the structure of it, I'm guessing and hoping it will look similar to what it look like on Sunday. All right, let's move on.

Let's get to who has the most at stake in the NFL this weekend, Lindsay. Why don't you start us off? All right. So usually here, this is when I like bring the show down and we go on some guy who's been playing terribly. I'm going to flip it. I'm going to flip the script this week. I'll play that role this week.

Don't worry about it. Because I am Miss Sunshine here. But I'm going to do Kyler Murray because, look, he is, look, Cardinals, number one in our power rankings, number one, I think at everybody's power rankings, is Kyler Murray top of the odds leaderboards for MVP. At four games into the season, you can't read too much into MVP favorites. But the spotlight on Kyler Murray is only going to continue to get bigger, the more that they keep winning.

They're playing the Niners this week. I'm not sure there is as many eye-popping defensive matchups. I think last week was a lot more interesting when they were playing the Rams defense. But at this point, he's been playing really well. And I know so much of it is still their offense is predicated on just like Kyler making magic happen. But I think he's been opening a ton of eyes to what they're doing in the passing game. And his passing statistics are pretty ridiculous, right? He's second in yards per attempt, first in completion percentage, first in EPA against the Blitz,

third in APA on all dropbacks. And he's third in passing yards. So this isn't like a limited passing game. They're throwing the ball a lot. He's very efficient. He's very dangerous downfield. they're getting a lot of a lot of guys involved. You know, it's not,

it's not just kind of a DeAndre Hopkins jump ball scenario. So, you know, he's a really good pass. Or a lot of that is predicated on the fact that he can extend plays. He can get out. He's so dangerous throwing on the run. But this isn't like a Kyler Murray just is running a lot. He's not running a lot. And I think it's going to be really fun for people to kind of dive in and watch,

watch Kyler Murray, excuse me, a lot more closely. He's become one of those guys where. I'm just going to have to watch every single Sunday. Like one of the TVs is going to have to be on the Cardinals. Like if I, for whatever reason, I don't catch a lot of them in an early slate game. It's going to be one of the first things I rewatch me. He is truly one of the most exciting players in the league in the top three, four most exciting players in the NFL. And I think the passing comments are right on.

We talked about this on Sunday night and eight and I. I mean, it's just stuff that the best quarterbacks do. Ball placement, touch, accuracy, timing. combining that with his ability to just break defenses in the most opportune moments. Jordan Roderick tweeted out some numbers about those third and 16 and third and 14 plays he had last week, and the win probability changes in those moments. That's what he can do. He can just kind of snap your will defensively in these really important situations

while also just playing quarterback at a super high level. This may be a strange thing to say. There's kind of a cognitive dissonance with me and Kyle are, just because I'm not used to watching someone who looks like that play quarterback still. Like some of the throws he makes and the way that the ball leaves his hand and some of the plays he makes, it's like, I don't, I can't comprehend this little person doing these things. It's incredible to watch. But I still think that's part of it where I'm just like, this just doesn't look right for some

reason. And it's still amazing. I'm still getting used to that, it seems like. Well, I've mentioned this on this podcast before last year. A couple years ago, I wrote a story about Kyler Murray's high school. dominance. I tried to make the case that he was the greatest high school player in Texas state history. And I watched a ton of his high school tape because he went to Allen High School, which he actually wore his Allen High School letter jacket to the stadium before Sunday's

game against the Rams, which I thought was super cool. But I mean, his records and his winning percentage and stuff in high school is bonkers. But I watched a ton of his games. Because he went to this massive school, they were on television a lot. Or you can find the full games on YouTube. And he looks exactly the same. I mean, just like that's a lot. That funny high step, the stutter step. But now he is like making Aaron Donald look like these, you know, 16-year-old defensive tackles. And it's just really fun to watch.

And, you know, his arm is so underrated, you know, because he's small. But he's got a really strong arm. He's got so much touch on his deep ball. The arm's strength was always there. But it's just the, it's the placement. Yeah. Like the ball he threw at Max Williams and the touchdown, that's where it's like, that's a step.

Like, that is growth. Yeah. He's harnessed a lot of this. stuff. 100%. That's a great verb. All right. I'm going to bring a debt back down here because I'm going with the way that we typically

frame this segment. I think Ben Rothesberger has the most stake this week. And this is why. Ben Rathesberger is past it. We know that. We know this, right? We always knew this. There are guys that reach the end and they can walk away with grace.

Like Philip Rivers, to me, is a perfect example. Philip Rivers gets to the Colts last year. It's his last season. He plays great. Like, he's a diminished version of Philip Rivers when he was one of the best three or four quarterbacks in the league. But they were a top tenish offense. He walks away after heroic performance in that playoff game. He played so well.

They lost, but he played great. And this is a guy that we will remember as somebody playing at that level. That will be our lasting image of Philip Rivers as an NFL player is what he did for the Colts last year. How bad is it going to get for Ben Rothesberger? This is somebody who's going to be in the Hall of Fame. This guy who's won two Super Bowl, has played at a high level for a long time. What is the lasting memory of Ben Rothesberger as a player going to be for people? Because if you look at the numbers right now, here are the quarterbacks below Ben Rothesberger in EPA per play this season.

Okay, you ready? Jacoby Preset, Trevor Lawrence, Davis Mills, Zach Wilson, Justin Fields. That's all. He's playing as bad or worse than the rookie quarterbacks who have been struggling. so far. The Steelers are reaching a level of unwatchability with their offense. This is tough. I mean, if you're a guy with his track record, his resume, you know, the pride he probably has and what he's put on the field for the last decade and a half, how bad is this going to get? And I think that to me is what's at stake. Is him being able to write the ship even a little

bit to the point that it's not just a flaming disaster for the next two months? Yeah, you would hope that checking it down on fourth down is going to be. kind of the rock bottom, the low point, but I'm afraid that that's not going to be it. And the problem that the Steelers are in right now is that they're already kind of trying to protect him with the design of the offense. You know, I think Matt Canada is trying to do the best that he can with an offense and a quarterback that is very clearly limited. But what else can you do?

And there's no other quarterback to turn to. Mike Tomlin was asked multiple times this week, would you consider benching Ben Rathesberger. And he said kind of unequivocally that Ben Rathosberger was the best quarterback for their offense, which is a damning statement about the state of their quarterback room. And the state of their offense. And their offense. So it's like they just don't have any other options. You know, you can even think of like, okay, well, you know, I know I referenced the 2015 Broncos and the end of the Peyton. I was going to ask you about that. A lot. But because Peyton Manning was playing really, really, really poorly. And it was almost convenient that he had an

injury that he had a reason for them to pull him out of the lineup. And I went back and actually pulled up the game story the other night from the night that he got benched against Kansas City because it was when he broke the all-time passing records, a record at that point. It was previously held by Brett Favre. And it was the most awkward. It was way more awkward than Tom Brady breaking it in New England. It was super awkward because he had already thrown four interceptions in that game. They were losing 22 to nothing. And then he got benched. I mean, he was getting booed. Like it was, so it was almost convenient that they said, oh, he has planar fasciitis.

And it was this like, okay, there's a reason. It's not just that he's old. It's that one, he's old and when he can't actually, like, move at all. Like, he can't actually plant his left foot. No wonder he can't throw the ball. And, you know, and they were a good enough team that they could survive with Brock Osweiler. They won the Super Bowl.

They won the, yeah, but they were able to kind of just stay on track long enough to kind of, you know, Brock Osweiler kept them on. but like this is this is a terrible thing to say but the Steelers do not have a Brock Osweiler like is Dwayne Haskins going to keep keep this thing kind of a Super Bowl team on the track no is is a Mason Rudolph no that's really really depressing so I think this thing is going to continue to get worse and look we're going to we're talking to Paul Paul Dana Jr. from Cincinnati the bengals are on the rise I watched the Ravens in person last week they were really good the browns are really stinking good.

I mean, the Steelers are on the verge right now of being completely irrelevant in their own division and we're only four weeks into the season. How many conversations did you have with people around the organization during that 2015 season just about how they had to handle the Peyton Manning aspect of that? Because when you were, I mean, obviously Peyton Manning is a different level than Ben Rathesburg. Patentan is one of the three or four greatest proerbacks of all time. But when you're a whole fame level player and you reach the end like that, how do you

handle that as an organization. Yeah, it was such an, the dynamics of that were really interesting. And Gary Kubiak should have won coach of the year. That year he did not. And I cannot remember exactly. I don't remember exactly who won in 2015, but it should have been Gary Kubiak. Ron Rivera, maybe. That would make, that would have made sense.

But for the way that he managed that entire situation, a lot of it was really instructive for probably the way that other coaches could handle questionable, you know, guys who were dealing with injuries. Basically, he was, Gary Kubiak was very upfront. about kind of Peyton Manning's struggles. He addressed it internally with the team every week and said, Brock is still going to be our starter this week. He would come out Monday morning and he'd say Brock Osweiler is still our starting

quarterback and, you know, Peyton will get there when he gets there. But yet, the weeks leading into that Kansas City game were interested. They played the Colts the week before. Peyton really didn't play well. And you could just tell that like he wasn't right. But they also were winning. I mean, they were winning most of those games. That's the difference, right?

They lost that game. So many ways you could spin it if you're winning games. Yeah. And they had, I mean, the personalities in that locker room and maybe some similarities to the, to the Steelers with, you know, Joe Hayden and Maken Fitzpatrick and Cam Hayward where there are some really big T.J. Watt, you know, some really good outspoken star defensive players. But yeah, I mean, they were, Gary Kubiak was just masterful in the way that he managed that locker room.

He didn't try to kind of hush guys up. He let guys speak for themselves. And he was just really honest with like, this is where Peyton's at. and we're not going to look too far ahead about it. We're not going to, we're not going to rush him along. We're going to let him kind of handle his stuff. It was interesting the way that he ended up coming back. He ended up pulling Brock Osweiler for him a game after multiple turnovers,

several of which were not Brock Osweiler's fault. I mean, basically got the hook after, I believe, C.J. Anderson fumbled. I mean, that was clearly not the quarterback's fault. And then, you know, Peyton Manning goes on this kind of magical run through the postseason where he wasn't great, but he was good enough. And you could see how his brain was good enough to carry them. And he did just enough offensively during that run. And I just am not sure if Ben even has that much in him right now.

If he's just his ability and his experience to kind of manage the offense, I'm just not sure if he has that in him at this point. Well, you can't just be a good defense in order to sustain when your quarterback is playing at that level. You need to be a transcendent defense. And that's what that 2015 defense was. I mean, it's one of the best defense to last decade. And they were lucky as hell, too. I mean, they were really good and they were really lucky.

They won some games in crazy ways last, you know, crazy turnovers. You know, there were some ridiculous ways that they won that game. And sometimes when you're a really good defense, you kind of create your own luck, right, that you believe that you are going to be able to make those. And that is a room for those guys, right? Those guys that year, it's just like there is a certain, like, mystical element to those dudes together. Like, they, they are absolutely.

when you put Akeep to leave, Chris Harris, von Miller, all of those guys in that room together. DeMarcus Ware. DeMarcus Ware. That is a, you know what? Fuck it. We'll do it ourselves. Like that is the type of group that is absolutely going to come to that conclusion. That's hard to find.

That is very, very difficult to pull off. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, the Steelers have a little bit of that in them. And I know they're adamant, Mika Fitzpatrick and Joe Hayden, that they were not off sides on that blocked field goal that should have been a touchdown. And that's kind of that type of juice play that really good, really special defenses and defensive players can make. But they didn't get that break. It didn't go their way.

And I don't know. I don't think the Steelers offense would have had it in them to ultimately hang with the Packers for an entire game, even have had that plague on their way. But those are the type of breaks that you need when your quarterback is struggling and the Steelers didn't get it. All right. Let's get to our appointment viewing for this week. Somebody, a team, a matchup that we can't out wait to watch what, you got for me. All right. So there's a lot of really fun games this week, but the game that I'm most excited about is the Chargers versus the Browns. Oh boy. It's Robert Mays Bowl.

This is the Robert Mays Bowl, right? I mean, this is really, really fun. And I know you guys are going to get into on the Friday show with Nate a ton of the actual matchups and like the really nitty gritty schematic stuff that's going to be going on because, but there's just so much fun stuff in this game. You know, it's the Browns front seven against the Chargers offensive line. Ray Sean Slater looks like an all pro. already, like he's this year's Tristan Werf's where there's just a rookie offensive tackle who you're like, yep, that's a dude. He had a rep last week that Duke Mannyweather tweeted out where he had to anchor down so low to get

back in position against the bull rush. It was just, I can't remember seeing anything like it from an offensive line that looks like him. He's not a monster. No. And the strength to do that, he is so good. I cannot wait to watch that guy for the next. 15 years of his career.

So really just like some fun upfront matchups. Yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly how they're going to line up every time. If he's going to have a lot of what on wrong reps against Miles Garrett, if he's going to be having more with Clowny or if he's going to, you know, exactly how that all is going to work. But really excited to watch, you know, some of those individual matchups. And then just when we talk about, I mean, we love to talk about coaches here, right? And coaching styles and the impact that individual coaches can have on their teams.

And I don't know if there's any two guys that we've talked about more than Kevin Stepansky and Brandon Staley, because these are kind of like two of the bright young coaching stars who have come in and transformed their organizations really, really quickly. And their imprint is all over their two respective teams. So this is just, it's just such a fun game. It's going to be like, you know, the star power, the coach, I'm just really excited. So that entire game. So I'm kind of cheating here and just give me that game in the after.

noon time slot and I'm going to put it on one of my TVs and not even flip around to other stuff. We're going to dig into the Brown's defense intensely tomorrow. It's something we have not talked about. They are good. I have not watched it enough to like have any detailed thoughts about it. Just because you've blocked out and them sacking Justin Fields like 18 times. It was so hard to understand what was real and what wasn't. But them doing what they did to Minnesota last week, I'm really excited to dig into that.

You mentioning the coaches, I think, is so on point. I think these are the two most modern coaches in the NFL. And I'll say, here's why I say that. You can be analytics driven as much as you want as a franchise. The Browns were under Sashi Brown, right? When you break it through to the coaching staff, that's when it changes. When the coaching staff is fully bought into these ideas and they shape their decision-making around those ideas, that's when the real Titanic shows.

shift happens in the league. Kevin Stefansky is bought in. It is about, his fourth down decisions are clear, right? Like he's going for it every single time. It's beyond that. The way that they've shaped this offense, the way that they shape their game plans, the way that they think about how much play action do we need to use, how much do we need to run the ball, how much do we need to throw the ball, how many explosives do we need? They're trying to game this thing. It has seeped into the way they make coaching decisions. And I think that's really, really important. And the same thing is, true for the Chargers.

Like Brandon Staley is somebody that is 100% bought into these ideas. You can hear it in the way he talks and the way he discussed. This is why him saying you don't need to run the ball to use play action is like the greatest thing the football nerds have ever heard in their entire lives. Football nerd Twitter lost their collective shit. And it was. It was funny because when he said and he later on he said and when you use when you run the ball and why it's important for the quarterback is it creates space for the

quarterback. What he means when he says that, he said this to me, it's not about, it's space in the pocket. You're giving your guy space to operate because what he said was when you run the ball, defensive players, they need to play blocks. So when you use play action, you're forcing defensive players to stop their feet and play the run. So it gives your quarterback literally more space in the pocket to operate. It's why he wanted some of the bootkeeper game to be an element of what they did. They brought Shane Day over to be their quarterbacks coach and their passing game coordinator when he was in San Francisco with Calh Shanahan.

He has thought about every single aspect of this. There is not a piece of the way this team is constructed about what their offense looks like, about the decisions that they make that he has not thought about. Kevin Stefanski is the exact same way. These guys are 38 years old, 39 years old. they have come to maturation as coaches in the internet analytics era. They have come to light in the football outsider's world. They have not known a world where that type of discourse about the sport hasn't existed.

And that is why they're just a little bit different than some of these other guys. Even Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVey, like I think McVey buys into some of that stuff. But I think that it's a little bit different with these two guys. And I really do think that you're seeing that on display. And I want to say one other thing about the Brandon Staley clip that kind of went viral, viral for good reasons, good viral video. It just, when you watch it, it makes sense of why he is such a good coach because he was able to break down this really kind of complicated discussion that people mess up on the internet all the time and explain it really, really cleanly. He is so respected because of how he is as a teacher. And so you could just picture exactly what he's like in a meeting room with his guys when he's

explaining these concepts. And it was also just really refreshing to hear him kind of be honest and explain something to it was to a group of reporters, but then more broadly to kind of the football watching public instead of talking down. He wasn't being condescending about it. He wasn't talking down to anybody. He was just explaining some, you know, pretty complicated football stuff that is really misunderstood in a really easily digestible way. And I just really, as a reporter, I really appreciate that. But I, you know, I think just as somebody who loves football and wants to constantly learn more about football, I just loved that sort of honesty. And, God, he's, he's just refreshing.

And just like Kevin Stifansky is refreshing. And if this is a copycat league, I hope that, you know, owners are watching what's happened this week. They're seeing the mistakes that are made by hiring a guy like Urban Meyer and the successes when you hire guys like Kevin Stifansky and Brandon Staley. He's an excellent communicator. and, you know, he, in the conversations that I've had with him, I've always appreciated that about him, is that he communicates those ideas well. He is a steadfast believer in the benefits of growing knowledge of the game. He has said that to me on multiple occasions. It's why he's as open as he is.

And it's why he has no qualms about having that type of discussion and explaining those sorts of things to people that are asking questions. they genuinely want to know the answers to. All right. My appointment viewing this week, Justin Fields is part of it. But I can't wait to see what Tray Lance looks like. But now I'm a little bit worried. Did you see that Garapolo had his press conferences today? Yeah.

And he said that he's going to try to play through it. I have no interest in that. I wish the best for Jimmy Garapolo. I want to see what this offense looks like with Ray Lance. So we've watched Jimmy Garapolo play through things in the past. I've seen it. You know, it's Jimmy got his money. You know, I'm all set for the Trey Lance era.

I hope that he plays just because I want to see what it looks like. That is my appointment viewing. With the caveat, if Trey Lance plays, I am excited to see what this offense looks like with Trey Lance because that was the question, right? What does the run game look like? When it expands and they have him as a runner, what does that version of this team look like?

We've had so many conversations over the last year or so about needing a guy at that position. And I think it's become starker than ever that you need one of the guys because of how right that guy can make you. It is so difficult to have to point your quarterback in the right spots all of the time. To me, I think it's a little bit of a Mahomes effect.

I think that if Patrick Mahomes didn't exist, I don't know if the Rams are as quick to go get Matthew Stafford and the Niners are as quick to go trade up or trade. Dr. Lance. But I think we've reached a point in the football world where people understand, if you don't have one of the people at the table, it's going to be hard to compete with the chiefs and teams like that with Josh Allen and guys of that talent level. And that's why I want to see what the version of the Niners looks like with a guy who has that physical profile,

that level as a prospect, dropped into this situation. It's not going to be great right away. We know that. He struggled last week when he was dropped in there. I think that's going to happen. I think he's going to have his growing pains in the same way that a lot of young quarterbacks do. But I do want to see what the early stages of that looks like because this is it. This is the Niners bet. We answered several questions in the mailbag this week about,

is Cal Shannon overrated? Is we overstating how good of a coach he really is? I think Stephen Ruiz said he should just be an offensive court. Yes, he did it. Did I hear that right? Okay. Yes. The Rumbles are starting.

And this is the bet that the Niners made. They bet big on this guy. and what they could do, he could do for their offense. And I'm excited to see what it looks like. It's not going to be great right away. But I'm excited to see what the stages of it look like and where we go from here. Yeah, it'll be really fun to watch. And the fact that Kyler Murray is also going to be in that same game, sign me up.

Throw him in the mix. You need one of those guys. You need one of those guys that can break defenses even when they do everything right. And that is why the Niners went and got a guy like Trey Lance. And now we get to see it. All right, every week we like to ask one big question we have heading into the weekend. What is the one thing that you need answered in week five? Okay.

So I'm going to take Urban Meyer out of the equation because like what sort of shit is Urban Meyer going to get into this weekend? That's one big question. But I want to know how good the Cowboys are. And I'm not sure if playing the Giants is the ultimate barometer on that. But the Cowboys are now officially on the like top of, you know, one of those top two or three teams on my radar. where I'm like, ooh, I want to watch every single snap that's going on. And it's not just that I want to watch what's going on with their offense because their offense has been really, really, really fun to watch because they're winning so many different

ways. I'm not going to step on Nate Tice's turf because I know this is his thing. Dak is his guy. This is his thing. But the Cowboys defense, I had the lowest of low expectations. And now I'm starting to think that that Cowboys defense might be like legitimately good. their rookies might be legitimately good. They have multiple defensive rookie of the year candidates.

Trayvon Diggs has been ridiculously awesome. So I don't necessarily think if they beat the giants, it's going to be this massive statement of how good they are. But I think it's a chance for them to establish their dominance in the NFC East and just kind of keep ascending in this wide open. I think the NFC is wide open. And I think if they keep stacking these sort of defensive performances, they're going to be one of these teams that we're talking about in the same conversation with the Rams and the Bucks and the Cardinals as the most complete and best teams in the NFC and an actual Super Bowl contender.

I think they're there. I really do. I think that their offense is good enough for them to be there. That's the biggest question to me. Can they be a top five offense and can their defense just make enough place? And I think we've seen that. I think outside of injury or, you know, they lose Tyrone Smith. get dinged up in some of the ways they have in the last couple years.

If that doesn't happen, I think they're on that track. I really do. I'm fully bought into what they look like offensively. And now we just want to see if defensively they're there as well. Yeah, and I think they're just making plays, splash plays. I mean, that's what they've done on defense. And I think that's what they need to continue to do. They're playing on defense where we've talked about this, spin the wheel, baby.

You have that Roll Dex defense, and that's literally what they call it. When you, you know, you pick a play out, pick a call out of a hat and it's really, really hard to game plan for. It's high variance. You're just trying to make a splash play here and there. That's what they're going with. And it's working for them so far. My question, how good is the bill's defense really? I mean, obviously they're number one by a lot in most categories.

Their EPA is twice as good as every other defense in the NFL right now. They've played a slew of terrible offenses. I'm truly terrible offense. Nothing is a truly terrible offense. I ran through that list of quarterbacks, of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL so far. That's who the bills have played. They've played Ben Rothesberger, Jacoby Peret, Davis-Mills. That's what we've seen from them.

So what do they look like against the Chiefs? I don't think you need to shut the Chiefs down to prove that you're a good defense. But is this truly a top three, top five defense? Because last year, it wasn't. even at the end of the year when they were playing better on that side of the ball, they still had pieces that they needed. And I think that explains what their offseason plan was. Brandon Bean looked at his front coming into the year and said,

we're not good enough. They went out and Greg Rousseau. They went out and got Basham. They've had some ascent from a couple other pieces up front. They have one of the best pressure rates in the NFL. They're really forcing the issue on defense. And it's allowed their offense to kind of find its footing after a pretty uneven start.

And that's what contenders are made of. Can you be this complete team where other aspects of your roster lift up elements that aren't playing up to their potential? That's what a really, really dominant team looks like. And because that's going to change over the course of the season. The offense is probably going to be better. And that's why it's exciting.

Because if they can play complimentary football on both sides of the ball and they have this level of talent top to bottom, that's when they get scary. That's when we can start talking about them as the best team in the AFC, you know, a real, real contender that can make this thing happen. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the other kind of big question. I knew you were going to hit on this game, so I didn't want to move too much into your

territory. But this is an awesome Sunday night game. I know last week's Sunday night game was, it was one, it was a really fun and entertaining game, but it was like a big deal because of like the emotions. This Sunday night game, Bill's Chiefs, is a big deal for like the actual, what we know and how we view the league and how we view kind of a snapshot of not just the AFC but the entire the entire NFL. And Chief's defense, I know that I know you're spotlighting the Bill's defense right now,

but I mean a tough, tough night for the Chief's defense. I'm not sure how well it's going to go for them. You hope it's a tough night for the Chief's defense if you're the Bills because that's a sign that your offense is, you know, starting to put it together. All right. Lindsay, we always like to ask. end our segment together on this a little bit easier this week. We're still going to do it.

Sell me on Thursday night football this week. All right. So this is an easy one. This is way too easy. Yeah. It's Ram Cahawks. So these are actual good teams. And the Rams are going to be pissed off. And not only are these two good teams,

but these are two good teams that legitimately hate each other. They are, they do not like each other. There was a whole lot of stuff that went on online last January. carried over into the off season a little bit where they were all talking shit to each other about going on vacation to Cabo and sending each other home. And it was Jalen Ramsey and Jamal Adams. And so look, they hate each other, which is really, really fun. That's always, that's, that always makes for a good time. Big stars, Aaron Donald, Jalen Ramsey, Cooper Cups, Matt Stafford, Russell Wilson, D.K. Metcalfe, Jamal Adams, you know, some fun X's and O's stuff,

Shane Waldron, coaching against his mentor, Sean McVe. I'm really fun stuff. It's not a hard sell. Yeah, I'm going to watch this. Yeah, I'm going to watch this one. This one's not hard. I watch it all the time. Here's what we should do.

Sell me on Falcons Jets at 8.30 in the morning on Sunday. That's the real challenge. Ooh. Why are we doing this to London? Like, why? Is this like, Do we hate them? We're setting back British American relations years by doing this to the British NFL fans consistently.

it's really rough that's a tough game and well and then the next week is dolphins jags so we really really hate them what time is that is this sunday game for you there's no way you're watching 730 730 a am you're up which is actually i mean i'll be up yeah i mean i'm i get up to run and i have a small child so i i'll be up um i probably will not be glued to my television that's when i'll probably watch on the condensed game once it's up on game pass a couple days later I probably will watch it because I have a sickness and I have to watch every NFL game when it's on no matter what. I'm going to support one of my friends running the Chicago Marathon because I forgot this game was on. So I will watch her run past me and then I will go turn this on at like 8.45 a year.

It'll be streaming and watch it on your phone. Yeah, there you go. So I will watch it. There's probably no good reason to watch it. I'm not sure we can sell you guys on that game. But we know you're going to watch it. We know all your sick. Zach Wilson played pretty well last week.

it's really fun to watch like the British crowd lose their mind whenever there's a good kicking play. So they're probably going to love Koo from the Falcons. Like that'll be really fun to watch Koo be the favorite player on the field. My selling point is that it's funny and gimmicky to have football on in the morning. Like for people who aren't used to it, having football on in the morning, like watching it over breakfast can be a little bit of a different experience. A couple years ago, I was in L.A. for, I was covering a game in L.A. and that game was on at 6.30,

which is really wild. I lived in L.A. during my mid-20s. I did not appreciate football games being on at 10 in the morning or 8 in the morning or whatever time they were out in the morning. It's a little easier now that I'm old and washed and live in central time. But all right, that's all we got, Lindsay, always appreciate it. Let's get to our conversation with Paul Deiner about the surging Cincinnati Bengals. All right. It's time now for our weekly team visit.

Couldn't go any other way this week. The three and one Cincinnati Bengals are the subject of our conversation. We welcome the one and only Paul Deinier Jr. Paul, how you doing, man? What's up, Robert? How are we doing? I am doing great, and not as well as the people in Cincinnati, apparently, who have very excited reminded me early and often about how wrong I was about the Bengals coming into the year, as if I said they were going to be like a three-win team, which I absolutely did not. Anyway, it doesn't really matter.

They are three-in-one, and they are right in the mix in the AFC. see. First thing I wanted to ask you, your expectations for this team coming into the year and what they've been over the first month or so, where's the biggest gap? What is the biggest surprise to you about what this team has looked like on the field compared to what some of us might have thought heading into the year? They have a good defense. I don't think anybody saw that coming. I mean, I don't think that we saw them being, I mean, you look at their DVOAs, their top 10, their top five, you know, and they have been, now they're, they're, they're, has been a bit of schedule magic there. I mean, when you look at who they've played, I mean, they caught the bears in that game where they had Justin Fields coming in and they, you know, Minnesota has a good offense, but Pittsburgh's obviously been a mess. Jacksonville up and down that Thursday night. You can make some excuses there, but really, they've looked like a good defense.

I mean, they have been extremely sticky in coverage. They've played with a chip on their shoulder. Logan Wilson has three picks in the first, had three picks the first three games and looks like the sort of second-year leap linebacker that you see that comes to the forefront of the league and a defensive line that is night and day different than last year, mostly because literally every player wasn't on the field last year for them. I mean, whether because of injury or because of the guys they went out and quiet, I mean, DJ Reeder has been making every dime of a $14 million per year contract

they gave him two years ago. Larry Ogun Joby has been great. Trey Hendrickson has made good on his $15 million. I mean, they have been really aggressive as in pass rush. and good in stopping the run, that was not what we thought this team was going to be. This was the team that was supposed to be. How far can Joe Burrow take them

and carry this defense on its back? And it's really been the opposite for the most part. And that, to me, is the biggest gap and where the biggest differential where you think the ceiling might be for this team that maybe it's higher because you didn't think they'd have a defense that could even go out there and win you some games.

And my concern with the defense heading into the year is that they lack star power. Who are the true difference makers on this team? Was my central question about the defense coming into the season. And when you're spending as much on defense as that team is, there was a gap there to me. There was a disconnect there. But watching them over the first month,

and I totally agree with you on the schedule. I mean, three of their games have been against teams, I think, that ranked 25th, 27th, and 28th in offensive DVOA, which certainly helps. The schedule early in the season when we don't have solid opponent adjustments, especially even for DVOA, it can be a little bit of morale. which we can get to later, but I do think that's worth taking into account.

But my concern was who are the difference makers? But you look at it, this defense right now is more than the sum of the parts. And I think that is the most important aspect of this, is that you have guys really playing well collectively. Chedobie Ousier, you know, Logan Wilson, every single guy playing about where you'd want to but playing as a cohesive unit. And that to me is the most encouraging part of that entire thing. Even if no one superstar stood out while Logan Wilson,

I think is definitely taking a jump. They are collectively playing together at a level that we might not have anticipated. I mean, we had DJ Reader on the other day. We're talking to him. And, you know, he was saying there's such a hunger amongst the group because it's like they are feeding off that narrative that we have no stars here. And they're all about the same age. They constructed this defense all in the same way. 24 to 26 year old guys who have a lot of talent but are trying to prove themselves.

Some hit the jackpot. Some of them have gotten contracts. Some of them are playing for them. Some of them have never really kind of felt like they've been the centerpiece of maybe some good defenses. Your Vaughn Bells of the world. You know, you mentioned Cheeto. I mean, those guys really are feeding off that narrative. And I asked E.J. Reader, I said, well, what's the difference?

You played next to maybe one of the biggest superstars in the world in Houston in J.J. Watt. What is the difference? He said, well, the difference is there is none as long as your superstar is like that. Because they set the tone. But when you have all of this, everyone feeds. into that. And that's why they've played with this sort of real tenacity and chip on their shoulder and relentlessness that is really a cornerstone of all great defenses. It's just you don't know necessarily a lot of the guys that are doing it. It's so funny because that was my concern

coming in is that they have a lot of number twos and number threes. And they've spun that into a positive. They've used that as a source, all right, we're going to rally around each other as those twos and threes. And you can see that. You can feel the energy that they're playing with. All right. So let's get into their actual star power. Yeah. All on the other side of the ball. Right. So how would you evaluate Joe Burrow through four games? Kind of give us a heat check on him. You know, the arrow going directly up at this point. I mean, look, he's he's played. If you look at his, you know, if you're talking about the second year jump, you look for him quarterbacks. First of all, he's not even played 16 games yet. And you see just in this four game period what he has been compared to what he was last. year is the jump from a guy who in almost every major metric you care about that matters towards winning being in the 20s versus almost every major metric you care about towards winning in the

top 10, top 12. And you see that on the field. Now here's the other, here's the scary part about that for the league. He has been absolutely had the restraints on him for half of those games, really three of them. I mean, the first three, they came into this season and they said, we don't really know what this line's going to be. And we don't really know how his knee is going to be. Let's lean heavy on Joe Mixing.

And they were the most run-heavy team in the league through the first couple of weeks. And they played like it. But it was working for them. Like they were, this defense was playing well. They could use it. Let Burrow beat you in spots. But kind of see where everyone was at. There was a play in Pittsburgh that we're going to look back on at the end of this season.

And if Joe Burrow takes a step, he looks like he can take as the turning point. It was a third down. And the Steelers went with no linebackers in the box. And Joe was an empty. And he knew the call. The call was an odd. for a QB draw for him. He knew that was the play he had to make.

He made it. He runs. He shakes a guy. He dives forward to get the first down, it to get into a goal to go situation, stands up, drops the ball with confidence like Joe Mixon does after every first down and points forward. And he said to us after the game,

I didn't know if I'd be able to do that at all this year. And when he did it, you could tell the switch flipped in his head. I'm that guy again. And you saw it on Thursday night against Jacksonville. He looked like it. He looked confident in the pocket. He was not afraid to be mobile.

He was not afraid to stand in and take a hit on cover zero with the game on the line. He did all of those things. He wasn't really that guy for the first couple of weeks and admitted that to us that he was still trying to figure that out. But you could tell that play in Pittsburgh, it changed for him. And he knew that he's back and he's ready to be that guy. It's interesting that you mentioned the run heavy stuff because I was going to ask you about that later. the fact that they were a top five team in situation neutral pass rate last year, and they were a bottom five team over the first couple weeks, I think was very telling.

But makes sense, right? You're trying to protect your guy a little bit. I also think they believed coming into this season that they needed their downhill running game to be a bigger part of what they did in order to create shots. If they were going to get explosive plays down the field, they need to be able to run the ball, not necessarily more often, but more efficiently and tie their run game and their pass game together. because that was one of the things that they were really missing last year. So it's interesting that you mentioned that. I wanted to stick with Burrow, though.

And we've talked about this before, Paul, but I think that Frank Pollock's comments today about Joe Montana were just another example. And I wanted to just ask you, you mentioned again, just the confidence, the way he approaches things, how does that tangibly affect this team and this franchise, just his overall demeanor? Because we can talk about it in an abstract way. But I'm curious where you actually see it show. up in ways that you can appreciably understand. You know what this league is.

Every week looks the same. It's two teams with a lot of talent and it comes down to a play or two at the end and who makes the winning drive. Usually the ones that make those drives are the ones that believe they can. This franchise forever has never been the one that believes they can, ever. I mean, even when they had great teams, they had Andy Dalton and there was like, there was always that thing in the back of people's head, like, can he do this? And well, maybe hopefully AJ Green can do this, right? I mean, that was those teams. And you go back to Carr, you got to go

all the way back to Carson Palmer in his heyday here in 2005 to find a team that had the confidence that would play with that knowledge of we're obviously going to go win now. They have that. When they have Joe Burrow, and you have him with that attitude, when they take the field against Jacksonville with 533 left and the game tied, not only do they know that they're going to go down and win, they know they're going to do it the perfect way and waste all the time down in the process of doing it because that's just how this guy operates and that's how they believe he's going to operate to instill belief real like confidence in a group of players who have no reason to have it wearing this jersey is the absolute game changer here. And that's why he was

always the perfect guy for this franchise because they needed somebody that you could really rally around and truly believe in when it came down to it at the end of a game. They have that now. So what's next for him? What is the next step that you need to see out of his game? Are there certain throws, certain situations? Or is it just going in and winning a game against Aaron Rogers? Yeah, I think it's the big time opponent win. I mean, we never, he was 2-7 and 1 last year, even though he played well. He had high volume numbers, but his efficiency lacked. That has changed over.

But we haven't seen him in the real big-time game and up against another real big-time quarterback and gone and won anything like that yet. I mean, and that's the – it'll always be this way, but the next step for him, whatever the next deal is, it's always going to be the next step for this team because they're growing with him. And so, you know, that is this team's next step. That is Joe Burroughs next step is going to be Green Bay. and their back half of their schedules filled with games, Chargers, Chiefs.

I mean, they're really backloaded with a lot of quality games in the back half of their schedule that they're going to have a chance to go win, including a brutal run through the division when they've got the Browns and Ravens twice still. So that's the next step. And in being, okay, this is a nice fun story on this eight and nine team or whatever, versus get Joe Burrow to the postseason and see what happens. You know, I mean, that's the step right now. it's funny that you say that because that's kind of what I envision for them this year.

Right. And I think that's right around 500. And if you take a step forward in the right ways, maybe we can kind of build up some more confidence in belief in this regime. And, you know, if they're headed in the right direction, Zach Taylor gets another shot. Because I thought this was a big year for that coaching staff. Because when you've made the additions you did in a defense, you spent the money, you have Burrow going into year two. I thought it was important for them to show tangible growth. Because at a certain point that you need to see it.

And it does feel like that has happened. Where would you say you've seen growth in the staff? Because I had my concerns about them heading into this year. And so far, I think that the marks have been pretty good through four games. The growth in the staff has been, you know, what they hoped it would be. I mean, the main growth has been wins. They just have, they haven't won. I mean, Mike Brown at the kickoff media luncheon, said, you got to win.

It was not, it was blunt. It was, look, we. I like Zay. You know, his message was, I like Zach. I think he's a smart guy. I believe in everything that we've been talking about here. I do, but it's been two years. You got to go win.

Like, I mean, he said it, clear as day. And so that was really what this year was always going to be about. They've liked a lot of the direction. They've liked a lot of the things the staff has done and said and built steps towards. But it had to be wins this year. And I think the fact that it has, even through four games and even questioning the opponents, has been a huge deal. certainly for the staff.

The growth, though, has been the ability to create the type of chemistry that snowballs. They really do have. Like, these guys really genuinely love football. They love playing it. They love talking about it. They like each other. And that's not, it's not just talk. Like, we get that talk all the time.

And you can see right through it. It really is. You've done this long enough. You watch them on the sidelines after anybody makes a play. Watch them the way they respond in the locker room when somebody gets a game ball, and everyone's genuinely happy for that person. And it's real reactions. And that comes from winning, but it comes from that atmosphere of building.

And what they did this offseason was what they should have done at the very beginning. Clear House. It's a new staff, all the old components, nothing wrong with them, what they were before. AJ Green, Gino Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Giovanni Bernard, all these players, fine, great, very much, you know, recent legends and Bengel's history had to be gone because the new leaders, the new leadership they were trying to institute was based around the decks being cleared for them to be leaders, but they felt they were walking into somebody else's house. I can't lead from when this guy's in the room and when they cleared the decks,

it really set this really great vibe, so to speak, amongst this entire team. And it's basically a team that follows number nine's lead. So a couple weeks ago, probably when the schedule came out, I don't think any of us were like circling Fengles Packers as like a game of the week. But suddenly this is a really interesting game. So I'd love to, one, here, what's Cincinnati reacting? Like, how is the city reacting to kind of this massive game? Will that stadium be full?

What do you think the atmosphere is going to be like? And then, two, if you could just maybe take us through a couple of maybe the most important matchups, especially defensively, how you think. the Spangles defense is going to match up with that Packers offense. I don't know if it will be sold out. I mean, look, they really pushed all their chips to the table this offseason to try to reconnect with the fans who have not. I mean, to the 2019 stadiums here, I mean, it was like 20,000, 25,000 puts in the seats and a 65,000 seat stadium, and that's how disconnected they were.

They did, they started a ring of honor. They did new uniforms. I mean, they put this whole onslaught their new game day presentation. Everything that they could possibly do to try to get fans in that wasn't win games, they did. And then they had a winning at Pittsburgh. And so they had their moment. They had a primetime game. Here's Anthony Munoz and Ken Anderson and Ken Riley's son.

We're induct these guys in the Ring of Honor. We're in our new uniforms. We're on primetime television. Then they had a full house. And then they laid the hairiest egg in the first half you ever seen, and the place was booing them. And this is it. They created one moment for themselves to reconnect with the fan base. They put it all into one spot, and it looked like they were going to blow it,

and then it ended up the opposite because Joe Burrow took over. It really invigorated the fans, like big, I mean, really made everyone believe. They kind of felt like they had a special moment of a reason to believe in this team. For that reason, I think the crowd will be really into it. I think it will be a pretty live atmosphere. I don't know how so that will be, but, I mean, there really is a momentum in kind of rejuvenating a fan base that kind of turned their back on them a long time ago. And I think that's good.

And defensively, I mean, look, I think it's going to be the same thing. The reason we've talked about their defense has been better. They have to get after Aaron. I mean, they have to get in his face. And it has to come from up the middle like it has. Larry Ogunjovi, DJ Reeder, B.J. Hill, these guys, they've been, you know, sort of rotating in there, have to push the pocket up in Roger's face and force him to, you know, do those other things.

I wanted to ask you because when you're, you're going to be able to, you guys have such an inherent kind of intimate knowledge of these fan franchises. And I think the Bengals are such an interesting case because they're an outlier in so many ways in this world. In the world of NFL teams, you laugh. I call them 31 to 1 because every owner's vote, every owner's meetings vote you've ever seen that goes 31 to 1. I go, well, I guess I got to talk to Mike.

You know, you just know what it is. Right? I mean, they are in their own world. And in a lot of time, a lot of the time, most often that's spun as a negative. The purse strings have been very tight. The facilities aren't to the degree. We talked about this when I was at training camp. They don't have a facility.

They don't have an indoor practice facility. I sure don't. It's crazy. And I'm wondering, does it feel after the last couple of free agent classes with Joe Burrow there now, do you think the tide is turning a little bit? Do you think that there is kind of a newer, modern era coming to this franchise? Do you think that's on the horizon or is that taking this a little bit too far? Yes. I mean, I think there is a catching up that's happening.

Maybe possibly getting into the below average, you know, like maybe not being right at the bottom as far as that stuff goes. They just never have really cared about that stuff, be off the field. They're taking a much more aggressive approach towards that to try to be a little bit more like a lot of the rest of the teams in the league are. There's no doubt. And in free agency, I think Zach Taylor has certainly modernized their approach. I mean, we've never seen anything like what they've done the last two years, which is just spend, spend, spend to try to recreate their roster. There was no Bobby Hart this year. There was no Bobby Hart extension this offseason.

Thank goodness. Thank goodness. I mean, no, I think, but I think you saw, you know, they're willing when the table is set for your roster to do that, they're willing to go spend that way. I think there's still going to be that, you know, Pittsburgh model, draft develop, retain is still the ideal. But, you know, they're willing to go do it.

And I think the tide is turning for them in that way. They're always going to be who they are. Even with, you know, Troy and Katie Blackburn, who are, you know, Mike's, they're kind of really the ones running the show right now, the everyday operation. There's a little bit of a change, but you're still always going to have that mom and pop feel to them because it's who they are. And they don't want to divert from who they are. They may, they're willing to do what the rest of the league is doing. but they also sort of embrace the nature of the fact that they are 31 to 1 sometimes, and they're comfortable with that.

And speaking of all the homegrown ideas and trying to build that way, you know, on defense, it's not that way. We know that. They've had to supplement in free agency because they've missed in the draft pretty often. On offense, you have a lot of homegrown pieces, especially in the skill position rooms. I'm wondering the way that that's shaken out so far with the way that Chase has played, with the way that Mixon has been a part of this, have those roles kind of shaken out, out how you expected them to, or has Chase's profile been a little bit higher?

I'm just curious how those spots look compared to how you might have thought heading into the year. Even before the whole Chase drops, you know, white striped ball preseason stuff, I didn't think Chase would be this guy this soon. And, I mean, for any receiver to come in and instantly change the entire dynamic of your offense upon his arrival, and he hasn't played in a year. And, you know, he's opt out is remarkable. And it has changed the absolute, the entire dynamic.

I mean, you know, teams are just, they can't single, they can't leave single on this guy. He just got in the league because he's just burning them over the top over and over again, and Burroughs dropping it right where he needs to. They have that instant chemistry that you hope to. That was something I thought that you would hope to see by midseason at best. And for it to be basically week one, first half of week one against Minnesota, I mean, it's a huge deal. I mean, that, to me, has been the biggest thing that has changed the dynamic of

everything and we haven't even seen T. Higgins in the mix with them. He's missed the last two games because of injury. And I really thought he was going to be the breakout guy this year that everyone would talk about as a real number one. And the fact that you already have Chase establishing himself is that, you know, it's everything you want it to be. All these guys are under contract. They're all going to grow together. Even Jonah Williams thrown in there as a left tackle. He's playing very well. Right. Absolutely. All the core, all your most important spots, you have young, under contract, growing together. I think that was always the idea behind it,

and you're starting to see the first rotations of it, starting to feed on itself. One of the things that has jumped out about Chase, I think there's still a ways to go, which is the way he works intermediate areas of the field. I mean, you watch when guys really stun him at the line of scrimmage, he can get thrown off right now, but when he's working down the field,

his ability to change speeds and accelerate is truly impressive. And it leaves a lot of guys just kind of with their heads spinning on the outside. When he throttles down and kicks back up, it's really hard to deal with him outside of the numbers. And that's what he's done. And I think that's been a really important aspect of the offense that they were missing last year, right? Like, they just didn't have that guy because AJ Green was not himself. No. And so you, and that wasn't his role in that offense. But, I mean, the thing is, I mean, you watch the deep ball he catches right before halftime against Pittsburgh. Minka Fitzpatrick is already waving it incomplete. And the DB quits. The DB just stops because it looks. It looks.

like it's going to fall and he hits this extra gear and grabs it and you just say, whoa. I mean, that's special. No one expects that to be what's happening. And you're right. Joe Burrow last year, deep balls, they had, he had one for a touchdown over 20 plus air yards. And obviously he's now had three to Jamar Chase alone this season and other balls. He had the one that really kickstarted them against Jacksonville was the same thing. It didn't go for a touchdown, but it was, again, a long, you know, 35-yard ball to Jamar.

are chased on the sideline. It opens everything up because all the rest of the pieces make sense then. Because T. Higgins intermediate is who you want. Tyler Boyd is one of the best underneath slot receivers who is thriving and empty for them, by the way. And then everything makes sense. You have the deep threat. You have T. Higgins do it all in the middle.

You have Tyler Boyd working the slot. And then all the pieces make sense. They were missing the over-the-top element this year. And now that you have it, you see it start to open up for everybody else. And now defensive warriors are going to have to start adjusting to that. And then you'll start to see every piece take their week where they break out. It all falls into place. You're 100% right, which is cool to see.

I love when that happens. Like, guys, this piece fits here, this piece fits here, and that's how it all comes together. Teams are going to have to start learning that if you give that guy a free release, you're going to be in trouble because he is just running by people. And that is very impressive to watch this early on. And, you know, Packers have some quarterback issues heading into this game. Corner or a quarter? Corner.

They had quarterback issues and now they have cornerback issues. Cornerback issues. Yeah. So that could be an interesting matchup to watch this week. I'm definitely interested in that game. And like I mentioned earlier, I was not before. But do you have any predictions for this weekend? I mean, is this a week that we're going to learn if this team is for real or not and

kind of maybe where they actually fit in terms of the AFC North? Yeah. I mean, it's the real barometer game for them as much as we wanted to talk about Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh's so bad. right now that it's hard to really judge them off that. I think this is to get, I think we'll learn how far away they actually are. I mean, later in the season, they need to be at the point where they can beat these teams. I don't think they're there yet.

But for right now, I think we'll learn how far away they are. If they're in competitive, if it comes down to the end and maybe Rogers beats them on a final drive, I think you're thrilled. I think you're thrilled at the Bengals. And you're like, you know what? We'll be there. We'll be there in six weeks. We'll be there in eight weeks.

We'll be able to beat these types of. teams if that's where we're at but you don't know if that's where they're at right now and I think that's what we'll find out I think they'll fall short I think they'll keep it with you know about a touchdown short but I think they'll be in it to the end and and prove that they're closer than a lot of people maybe think awesome Paul it's always so great to chat with you man I really appreciate the time thank you for taking it out I'm sure we'll catch up soon absolutely talk you you later all right guys that's all we got for today thank you so much to Lindsay and Paul really enjoyed that show we will be back tomorrow with me and Nate do

our Friday 5 preview. A lot of good stuff that we're going to dig into. We're going to talk about Browns defense. We're going to talk about bills. We're going to talk about a bunch of stuff. We're also going to dig into Daniel Jones and how he's been playing over the last couple weeks, which is not something I thought I'd be doing going to get to week five, but the NFL season sneaks up on you.

Really I appreciate you guys listening. Please rate and review the podcast in your podcast platform of choice. I very much appreciate that. Please subscribe to Theathletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. I'm telling you, if you guys do not have one, you desperately need one. We'll be back tomorrow. Appreciate you listening.

We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.