The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Super Bowl LV analytics with Sheil Kapadia and assessing Bruce Arians’ offense with Ryan Lindley

Episode Date: February 2, 2021

The Athletic’s Robert Mays and Sheil Kapadia kick off Super Bowl week by discussing 10 stats that could play a key role in the Chiefs-Bucs matchup. Then, former NFL quarterback Ryan Lindley joins the show to talk about what he learned under Bruce Arians. He explains what makes Arians’ system so unique, Tom Brady’s influence on Tampa’s offense and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Ryan Linley, former NFL quarterback, former Bruce Ariens quarterback. It's going to be joining us a little bit later in the show to talk about working for Bruce and the Aryan's offense and the back and forth between Ariens and Brady that he's seen so far. A lot of good stuff, really fun conversation with Ryan. Before we get to that, though, I am thrilled to welcome my good buddy, the Athletic Zone, Shiocapati.

It's show, how you doing, man? I could listen to Bruce Aryan stories for like hours on end. So I look forward to that. I don't think I'm going to match that entertainment value. I'll do my best, but I look forward to listening to that part of the podcast. It's always entertaining. I've, you know, talked to Bruce a few different times over the course of my life, and I enjoy it every single time.

And it was really nice to get Ryan's input on that. You and I are going to be taking a very specific look at the Super Bowl today. When you're doing a show every single day for five days, You end up hitting the game from every possible angle. And the one we're looking at today is numbers-based. We're going to take a look at the Super Bowl through the lens of 10 stats we think kind of describes this game and might end up determining this game. You've already done some of the work on that.

You did your Super Bowl preview with Ted Nguyen, where you guys talk about it from an analytical perspective, from the X's and O's look that Ted does. They're fantastic. They've been doing them all playoffs, guys. If you have not taken a look at that, please go on the athletic and read that. I'm sure we'll talk about some of those numbers today. So we're going to do 10 stats back and forth, you and I.

Why don't you throw out your first one here? Yeah, I mean, I think the huge question here is after we all watched Patrick Mahomes in the AFC championship game, like, what do you do with this guy? And so I don't know that there's a great answer, but for my first stat, I just picked out his EPA per play against two deep looks. That's very specific. It doesn't make for great podcasting, but we'll put it into context. And so the number is 0.18, but what it means is that he ranks 13th against split safety looks.

Now, I don't want this to come off as that's his kryptonite. And oh, man, you know, why don't you just, you know, they can take the rest of the week off after listening to this podcast. Just play a little too deep. And you've got him because the bills tried that. You know, certainly the bucks tried that in the first meeting at times. And so there's no right formula. To me, it comes down to like, what's your best chance? And I heard somebody, I can't remember who it was.

They were describing like what they need from tight ends when they're blocking. And they were like, they need to lose slowly, you know? You don't need to pancake the guy. You kind of just need to do enough. And that's kind of how I look at this. You know, if you're looking at how to attack the chiefs, how to give yourself the best shot, it might be trying to lose slowly and playing with more too deep look. So that was the first number I came up with.

And then just think about this anecdotally, you know, when you look about the first time these two teams played, some of the. shots down the sideline to Hill were against single high looks. And you're sitting there thinking, how are you doing this? You know, obviously, there is no good answer. And I think that's why we see a variety of solutions against Mahomes. You see teams playing a little bit more man. You see teams playing some zone because there's no good answer.

And I'll get to some of this over the course of the week as we talk about this game. But if you go back and you look at the first matchup, that's kind of what it felt like. No matter what the bucks did, they just kind of throw your hands in the air being like, well, this isn't going to work. and the other thing isn't going to work. There's no good answer. Every time I think about trying to defend Mahomes, I just think of that clip from Seinfeld

where he's at the play and he just gets up and he's like, nope, that's it, I'm done. And he just walks out. Like, that's how I would game plan for him. You just be like, fuck it. I have no idea what the answer is here. And I just think that's kind of where we're at with him. Losing slowly, dying slowly is kind of the only way to go.

So similar to that, my first one is also related to two deep looks. And it's about Travis Kelsey because the answer the chiefs often have against these two deep looks is they have the best underneath receiver in the NFL, which is a little bit of an advantage. So against two deep looks this season, Travis Kelsey has 45 first downs on 60 receptions. So 75% of his catches against two deep looks go for first downs. Dan Pizzuta from sharp football stats put together numbers before the divisional round. And then I went and looked at the divisional round. He had four catches for 34 yards. Going into the divisional round, he had 44 first downs on those catches, the next closest guy in the NFL had 27, which is absolutely

remarkable. And it speaks to how difficult it is to defend this team because even if you want to lose slowly and you want to sit back there and say, you're not going to beat us over the top, it's the one way we're not going to do this, then Travis Kelsey is going to sit there and he's going to destroy you because even if you look at those two deep looks at the chiefs run, they stretch so fast. If you look at the All-22, it's incredible how much depth this is. safeties have to get. And even the linebackers, the zones just have so much air in them because of the speed that the chiefs have, the air within them, even if you're not getting beat

over the top, creates a ton of space underneath. And I think Devin White came out today and said that Levanti David was going to do a majority of the work against Kelsey in this game. One, I don't believe that for a second. Two, even if that is the answer, that's a lot to ask of Levanti David in space like this because of how much air their speed puts into the coverages. So even if it's too deep, the chiefs have an answer to that. It goes hand in hand with my next one, which I'll just get into and we can talk more about Kelsey. But I had where the Bucks rank in DVOA against tight ends. And it's 25th in the NFL.

So they've got, you know, they've got speedy linebackers. I really like their safeties if Winfield and Whitehead are both going to be healthy and playing. But this has been an area where they have not performed well all season long. And it's what you said. I mean, I'm looking at this. I was looking up the, the, the, the, the BEDMGM overunders for a piece I'm writing. And Kelsey's overunders for this game are seven and a half catches and 97. And a half yards.

Yeah. I don't remember seeing a player's yards be that high. And a tight end. A tight end. It's crazy. And so a lot points to, you know, if they're going to look at that first game and say, oh my gosh, Tyreek Hill just absolutely crushed us. Like, we're not losing that way again.

We're going to double him. we're going to play his safety to his side or we're going to bracket him, whatever. Like you mentioned, there's always another answer with this Chief's offense, and that's the big challenge in defending them. And so if you're playing too deep, if you're playing zone, if you're giving Hillmore attention, all these different types of things, like I'm wondering if this could be like a, you know, 13 catch, 170. Like there is a huge ceiling for the volume of targets, catches, yards, all those different

types of things that Travis Kelsey could see in this game. And I think part of that number is probably informed by the idea that the chiefs are going to throw the ball a bunch. Because if you look back at the last game, Mahomes had 52 dropbacks in that game. 51. Excuse me, more than that, 56. He had 56 dropbacks in that game. They only had 16 running back runs.

And part of that is because the chiefs are so good at taking the path of least resistance, right? If you're going to be the Bucks and you have the league's best run defense and you're going to play in heavy boxes a decent amount of the time and say you're not running the ball on this no matter who you are then the chiefs are going to say fine we're going to sit back in there and we're going to throw it 50 times that's absolutely okay with us so i'm assuming that some of those numbers and some of the props are pumped up a little bit because the last time these two teams played and the idea that the chiefs are just going to throw it all around the yard no matter what the game script happens to be yeah andy read is not uh is not going to go down pounding the football

at vita bay i can tell you uh I can tell you that much. I mean, you know, even if the Bucks took, took like the opposite approach and we're like, all right, we're just keeping our safeties back, go ahead and run the ball. I mean, he doesn't want to do that. His quote earlier was hilarious when, what did you say, when did fourth and one become a passing down? And what did he say? He's from BYU, so every down is passing down.

I mean, that's just like Andy Reed's career. And Ted did a great job in the piece we wrote showing some of the RPO's that the chiefs run, you know, the correct read on the chalkboard. you're teaching it to another team, you would say, all right, that's a give, that's a give. But sometimes Mahomes is like, all right, you know, I like the match up. I can fit it in there. I can make something happen. And he just goes ahead and he throws the ball there. So I agree with you.

I mean, I'm like, I'm very curious to see just how many pass attempts Patrick Mahomes racks up in this game. Even if you look at the first game, just the percentages, it was higher than even what the chiefs normally do. And they lead the league and, you know, pass percentage on early down. So yeah, I agree with you. they're going to throw the ball all over the place in this game. The tight end defense and the linebacking question is really interesting.

And I just, I'm fascinated by the Bucks linebackers because you have two guys that are celebrated. Levante David's been in the league for 10 years. I've fed a lot of conversations about him this week. And I just think that he's such an underrated player. And then you have Devin White who was a top 10 pick, right? Top 5 pick. So if you look at their numbers, Combine wise, Devin White ran sub 4-5. And that's why he was a top 5 pick.

Levanti David ran a 4-6-5. Who do you think is the better past defender of those two guys? It's Levante David, and it's not even close. And it's just such a study in how much physical traits don't align with coverage ability. And when I was kind of thinking about this a few years ago in regard to smaller, faster linebackers becoming more of a trend in the NFL and something that was sought after, those two things always were locked in in my mind. I remember Darren Lee is a really good example, who the Jets took in the first round. You saw these crazy movement skills, and I was like, oh, well, he can move so he can cover. And that's just not how it is at all.

It's almost like receivers where if you have a really, really fast receiver, I remember talking to Wade Phillips about this earlier this year. We were just talking about how speed affects defenses. And he was saying that sometimes those really fast guys, they can't slow down. They just can't stop and start. And that's one of the reasons that their speed doesn't have that much of an impact. It's because if you play over the top, you're not worried about them throttling down. Linebackers are kind of similar to me. I think guys that are really good at playing downhill and fast aren't always comfortable and patient playing backwards.

They don't have a lot of awareness. And that's the real contrast with these guys. And even if David's really good in coverage, you can take advantage of white. And I absolutely think that's something the Chiefs would go to a decent amount in this game if the Bucks do play a lot of too high stuff. Yeah, it's a great point with linebackers. I mean, I'm generally on the side of like, you know, if I were with the team, I would want to really rate athleticism highly. And, you know, when people make mistakes, if you have the better athletes or one-on-one matchups, but it's so true with linebacker is like 100% the exception.

I mean, it's like instincts and smarts and leverage. Michael Kendricks is the guy I remember from when I was covering the Eagles full time on those Chip Kelly teams. You're like, this guy should be just like one of the best coverage linebackers in the NFL. and it wasn't the case. He would get exposed week after week after week. And so it's a great point with Devin White. Even in the NFC championship game, one of my favorite plays was when Jordan Whitehead had had that forced fumble on Aaron Jones. But, you know, Devin White was just caught up in the traffic there on that, like shallow crosser and was nowhere near Aaron Jones on that play. And Whitehead made a great play. So if you're talking about offensive coordinators, kind of circling, you know, some people

on the defense of who we can take advantage of, matchoffs. I like White a lot as a player. I think he's really fun to watch. And when he's going in the right direction, you know, I don't know that he's matched by anybody. But at the same time, if I'm Andy Reed and Eric Bianney and scheming it up, I do think there will be ways where they try to put him in bad situations. All right. Let's get to my next one here. So this one's 2.71 yards per attempt. And that's how much Tom Brady averaged against six pass rushers the last time these two teams played. So I know in your piece with Ted, you wrote about what he did against the blitzing that the

chiefs did against the box the first time these two teams played. But it wasn't just five-man pressures. They brought six guys seven different times in that game. If you look at the season, that only happened 37 times against Tom Brady. So about one-fifth of the total number of six pass-rusher plays that he experienced all year happen against the chiefs in that game. And I think that's a really interesting strategy because a lot of it was really well designed.

I mean, there's super exotic pressures. You have guys following one another, coming from weird spots. Spagnola loves dialing shit up against Brady. He like genuinely seems to get an absolute thrill out of coming up with different stuff. And they seem to have a really good idea of how to attack pressure rules,

where they could kind of tease the back to by showing an early pressure and then coming behind it with someone else. I just thought they seemed to have such a good finger on the pulse of when to bring heat and how to bring it in this game. And if you look at it, I want to say he was like two of seven for 13 yards on those plays in that game. And if they can do that again,

if they can really test the bucks pressure, make sure that they're having Brady kind of off-balance the entire game, bring those at the right opportune times. I think we could see him uncomfortable in the same way we did the first time these two teams played. Spagnolo had him so uncomfortable in that first game. I mean, the final numbers do not, you know, I knew he ended up throwing for 345, but as I'm sure you did and a lot of people this week are probably sort of rewatching that game or revisiting that game. I mean, I think they had one first down on the first four drives. They had one touchdown, I think, on the first eight drives. And it was exactly what you were describing. It wasn't like, you know, he missed a throw or they got bad luck. Like he was confused back there, which is crazy to say about Tom Brady. but Spagnolo did a fantastic job in that game. And yeah, one of mine here is just that Brady overall against the Blitz this year ranked 19th in EPA per play league wide.

And so he shredded teams when they rushed four or fewer. But teams consistently had success or more success when they blitzed him than when they didn't blitz him. And of course, you know, Spagnolo and Bulls, I love having both these guys. And they just like don't care. They're just like, let's go. you know, we're not afraid to just send these blitzes or pressure looks like they're not going to be afraid no matter how well the other quarterback is playing. So yeah, I do think it's going to be that matchup between Spagnolo, whether it's the sim pressures or the actual blitzes or the big blitzes

like you're describing versus Brady going, I'm not letting this guy get me again. Like, you know, I'm going to get the better of him before the snap in this game is going to be one of the most, you know, interesting matchups in the entire Super Bowl. I'm really curious about that because the idea used to be that you never wanted to blitz Brady. He was like Peyton Manning or Mahomes or Rogers. And my assumption would be that hot rules and protection rules are things you hone over time, right? You have a feel for where you're supposed to go within a certain offensive system based on the menu of pressure as a team can bring at you. When you've only played one season with a team, those two things feel like elements of an offense that would take a lot.

little bit longer to hone. That's anecdotal. But if I had to guess why teams have been more willing to do it this year and he's struggled a little bit more against it this year than he had in the past, that would probably be the first place my brain would go. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And you and Nate, I feel like I've talked about all year how they don't always have easy answers in this box offense, right? So it's like, you know, all right, you want to push the ball downfield. You want to let the receivers get deep into their routes. Well, if the pressure gets home and their backs have not done a great job either in pass protection. So if you're the chiefs and you can get your DBs or your linebackers matched up against their backs, they haven't been really trustworthy where they've picked that up all the

time. So that'll be another key to watch. So mine is similar to kind of the idea of being aggressive on defense when you talk about Bulls and Spagnos. So according to next gen stats, the Bucks used press coverage on 47% of snaps against the Packers last week or the last game. The week before that, they were at 44% against the Saints. Those were their two highest marks of the entire season. They had not been above 30% in any other game this year. So if you look at that, that's a drastic departure in terms of style and approach in the biggest games of your entire year.

And I kind of think it works. Like this defense playing that style when you have guys like Carlton Davis and Sean Murphy Bunding who are comfortable being physical. in-your-face players, I think it's really worked for them. I think they've kind of found a groove playing that style. And I'm really curious how comfortable they would feel playing like that against the Chiefs because there's inherent risk in doing it. So if you look at the first meeting, like you said, Mahomes was six of nine for 113 yards

and two touchdowns against man coverage in that game. He shredded it. But if you look at the actual plays, there was the long touchdown. to Tyreek Hill. On that play, it was man or two man, I think it was probably two man, and Hill was in the slot against Carlton Davis, and he tried to press him, and he didn't touch him until like three yards down the field.

That's how quick and just free the release was from Hill. And that's the problem, is that it's not just that Hill's really fast, because I think the Chiefs have had some success, or excuse me, I think the Bucks have had some success, playing against fast receivers like Marquezvold is scantling, for example, in that style. But it's because he's so quick and he can get off, press so well, that typically that

strategy of we're going to push around a small, fast receiver doesn't really work for him. Because in the blink of an eye, he's gone. It's almost like he's disappeared. So there's inherent risk in doing it. But I also think, like you said before, if you look at the numbers compared to zone, he was picking them apart in zone last time. He was just having whatever he wanted against them. And I almost feel like marrying the two ideas of being aggressive, but,

playing too high might be a good approach to take against the Chiefs right now. I think the Saints who play more too high than any other team in the league essentially, or two-man, they had some success against them when they played earlier this year. I think that was a solid approach against the Chiefs, especially if you're not afraid of Mahomes running as much because his foot's been bothering him a little bit. So I think that's just something to take into account. The amount of press we've seen from the Bucks recently and the amount of too deep zone you can still play if you're playing two-man.

The Bucks have played 15 snaps in two men during the playoffs. They played 35 snaps in it in the entire regular season. So I just think all this stuff kind of coming together might inform the style of defense we see from them on Sunday. Yeah, and even a couple of those plays in the first game where Carlton Davis has matched up with Tyreek Hill. Like he wasn't getting smoked on a couple of them. They were tough completions. Yeah, you're like, oh my gosh, come on, man. You're just like, all right, there's nothing you can do.

So those weren't a case. You know, it's tough because they're not necessarily a case of, you know, why did you call this coverage and leave him one on one? Because it's like, you know, you have to pick something, as we've said. And then on the other hand, it's like, well, when you play Mahomes and Tyree Kill and Travis, when Travis Kelsey is making like Denzel Ward fall down one on one, it's like, you know, it's like, what are you going to do here? So, yeah, I am very interested to see what their approach is. I think two men make sense. Mahomes, I want to see how much he runs in this game. You know, we saw last year in the playoffs in those high leverage situations,

he's willing to take off. And I just thought against the bills, it's tough. I forget who tweeted it that, you know, don't let his, like, I think it was, didn't Robert Salas say don't let, like, Mahomes' walk in between snaps fool you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or something like that. Because when I watch that Bill's game, I'm like, he looks great to me.

He's shaking off Matt Milano. He's, you know, he's a, shaking. off AJ up, Vanessa, he's moving in the pocket. Like, I didn't see a lot of signs that the injury was really affecting him. And now you get two weeks of rest. And we know if you're playing two men and it opens up in the middle of the field, he will be willing to take off. But I think that's something certainly you mix in and something you would test.

And also, I want to see what the officiating crew is like in this game. You know, the bucks were able to be a little grabby against the Packers. And credit to them. If they're not calling it, go ahead and keep doing it. it until you get burned, I think we'll know within the first, you know, two, three possessions of this game. Is the officiating going to be the same? I'm sure the chiefs have, you know, I don't know if they'll do it publicly or privately, but I'm sure they'll make it known that, you know, they were seeing some things on film from the Bucks in that Packers game that they thought were penalties.

So there's probably all these different things going on where the officiating is going to play a factor in how the Bucks can play. How do you feel about the idea that the greatest quarterback of all time talks like a Muppet and runs like Lamar Jackson heading to the bathroom and halftime of that game against the Browns. Are we, are we okay with that? Are we like, are we fine just sitting in that reality? I like that. I like that.

You know, I don't want him. Yeah, I like, you know, I don't even want to call them flaws, but, you know, they're quirks. They're eccentricities. Yeah. A little, yeah, they're that. So that's good. That makes them more relatable, I think.

You know, I was thinking that all great, you know, my friend sent me this text of who I think it was like a Tom Brady Men's Health video. or something with like, you know, his fridge and his workouts or something. And I'm like, dude, just every great quarterback is really weird. Like that is just where we are. But I was like, you know what? My homes might be our hope to kind of break that. I know he's young, so we'll give him time. But, you know, he seems pretty normal.

He's got all the tools. So I like those things about him. It was so funny. I remember it's two years ago. I was at Mitchell Schwartz's house. I was doing a story about him. We were sitting there at his kitchen table. when he had just made me pizza and it was delicious.

And we were sitting there talking and I was asking him if it's ever hard to take Mahom seriously because of the voice. Like when he's talking like a frog, like is in those really important moments. Like it's a fourth quarter and he's like, come on guys. Like it did it take a decent amount of time for him to get used to it? And he's like, no. Like it just, for whatever reason,

it doesn't really matter what it sounds. Like that guy has just complete and total command wherever he is. And I totally agree with you. It's kind of nice that he seems relatively normal and just like the type of dude that you'd want to play with and play four and just happens to be the most talented quarterback we've ever seen. Yeah. I mean, it does seem, yeah, there hasn't been any, maybe this is the honeymoon period. I don't know. But there hasn't been like any drama or anybody, even when they leave there, it's just like, yeah, you know, we love this guy.

He has command. Even, even I was talking about this recently, Andy reads like some of the things he's got. dinged for in his career, you know, whether it's timeouts or clock management, like Mahomes takes care of all that. You see him yelling at the sideline. He knows what to do. I mean, when's the last time he made a mistake in just in terms of like game situation and smarts and all those things. So he really does have everything you're looking for. I'm genuinely curious because I know this came out pre-draft and there have been so many things written about it. And by all accounts, when Reed sat down with him and they got on the board, he's just like, that's the guy. Like,

And if that's the case, if he had this level of football IQ, because that's something we don't know, right? I mean, I remember Ted tweeted before the 2017 draft, he's the quarterback one. Like, that should be the number one guy. Very few people did that. And I remember saying even before the draft, I think my comment on it was that guy is doing like an art installation on the idea of playing quarterback. Like, that's what Patrick Mahomes' college tape looked like. But if he had that much ability and this much awareness, it just seemed like maybe that you could have put the pieces together or more teams could have put the pieces together. Because his ability to be situationally sound and understand the right choices.

And like you said, the decisions he's making on RPO's all of that stuff, that's been the most impressive thing about his growth is just the overall command he has of this shit combined with this otherworldly predi natural ability that he has. Yeah, I thought that was all on display in the AFC title. game. It was just like arms, legs, smarts. I mean, when you saw how, you know, and Josh Allen had a terrific season, but when you watched how he was reacting to like blitzes and pressure and different things and trying to buy time versus Mahomes, who seemed to just have answers before the ball was snapped, that really stood out and it is probably something he, you know, maybe he doesn't get enough credit for. What's your next one? I've got, this is a very simple one. You know, I thought I was going too, too in depth. So this is just the number five, you know,

for anyone who was getting bored with the earlier ones. That's the number of sacks the bucks had with just their four-man rushes against the Packers. Do you got the same one? I have a very similar one. Yes. Continue. Yeah. So, well, and to build on this a little bit, I was looking at.

I like, you know, the time to sack stats. And so four of those five sacks came in under four seconds. Now, you know, four seconds is a arbitrary number. I think a lot of offensive linemen would say, you know, we're not responsible for blocking for four seconds, but to put it into perspective, they got to Rogers four times in under four seconds in Rogers' first 17 games that had happened six times total. Wow. And so it's like, and when you're watching it, you were just like, yep, JPP, he won right away. Yep, Shaq Barrett, he won right away. Like a lot of those, they were not a case of Rogers holding onto the ball. Some of

them were, or, you know, having to get to a second or third read. It was just like, those guys are doing work right off the snap. And for all the analysis, I think everyone will do this week and, you know, this is what we do and what we're paid to do. I just think so much of it comes down to are Shaq Barrett and JPP going to just crush those offensive tackles? And if they do, and I think both those players have like high ceilings. I really like both those players as guys who can just totally take a game over, sacks, force fumbles, just like snap after snap come after you. if those two players can really put in that kind of performance, then I think the Bucks absolutely have a chance.

And I think it's a big reason why the line is whatever it is three, three and a half. I mean, the path to a victory for the Bucks to me is pretty straightforward. And it starts with those two guys against the Chief's backup tackles. I completely agree. So mine was that Rogers was pressured 33.3% of the time on dropbacks where the Bucks brought four in that game. And that may not seem like a lot.

but on the season, he was only pressured 23.7% of the time on all dropbacks. So to get after him the way that they did with only four on 11 of his 33 dropbacks, that's pretty crazy. That is much different than what we had seen against the Packers for a lot of the season. And it's a much different approach than we've seen from the bucks at times this season, right? We're used to them bringing so much heat and that being the way they heat up the pocket. But in actuality, they won that game with four. Rogers finished two of 16 for 16 yards with five sacks on those plays.

All five of the sacks they got were with five guys. So they blitzed on 18 of those dropbacks in that game, and they only got pressure five times. So I think that distribution should inform the way they approach this game. You don't want to blitz Mahomes, period. And in the first game, they essentially didn't. A lot of the numbers, if you look at the man numbers and the blitz numbers from the first time these two teams played, they're essentially aligned. when they brought pressure as when they played man.

So you see that, I think it was six of nine for 100 and something yards. It's pretty much the same against the blitz. So I could see a similar distribution, but I have more faith with JPP, Baird, and Veya on those stunts. Yeah. I know his best trait is what he does as a run defender, but when you saw him as kind of a wrecking ball on those stunts,

the one I'm thinking of is the Barrett sack. but the stunt they had on the backside squeezes the pocket down. And I think that's the type of stuff you'll have to do. You can't get all over the place. When you're bringing those stunts, you have to be disciplined and make sure you don't let Mahomes escape. But if you can crush the pocket and win one-on-one on the other side, I think that's a really good recipe.

So if they can stick with that and their front forward can really take over this game against a banged-up offensive line, I completely agree with you. I think that's the quickest and most direct route for the Bucks to win this game. Vita Vaya, when he, when they run a stunt and he's got momentum, you know, and he's just coming at a tackle or a guard is, well, I think, you know, like just I remember the one play you're describing it against the Packers,

like one of the most underrated fun, like football nerdy things to watch, I think, because you're just like, how is anybody supposed to stop that man when he has momentum and has gotten a few steps and is coming at you? So yeah, it's like a blitzing is in Todd Bowles' DNA. We know that. He's not going to rush for. the entire game, but it's like if ever there were a situation where it said, you know,

the data sort of supports that you should just, you know, maybe not blitz as much in this game, given Mahomes' performance against the blitz, and also the ability of your front four to get after their offensive line, like this would be that game. It's so funny. The stunting and the traits associated with stunting is an aspect of football that I've only started to really appreciate recently. Because when you're looking at a lot of those stunts, I remember the most famous example would be

the way the 49ers used to do it with Justin Smith and Alden Smith. Remember how Justin Smith had that sneaky ability to just kind of grab offensive linemen and free stuff up for Alden Smith as a looper? And that's one aspect of it. And that was cheating. But it was a very notorious kind of illustration

of how to do that. But there are so many different ways that these stunts happen. And if you really want to get nerdy about it and when you're watching this game, just take a look at it when they're showing the end zone in view about not only who's stunting, but the role that they have. So who's penetrating and who's looping?

Who's going first? Who's going second? When you're the penetrator like Vea was on that play, what is his goal? How is he attacking guys? How is he attacking their leverage? And I just never understood that as a skill, like being an actually good penetrator on some of those stunts. But it really is.

And I think another really good example, the Steelers do it all the time with Cam Hayward and Stefan Tuitt. They're so good at it. And Tyson Aluallo was really good. good at this year too. And that's just a little tiny thing that I think speaks to really well-coached defensive linemen that I probably didn't pick up on before the last couple seasons. Yeah. And they've got the guys between those three and Sue and some of their backups that they definitely have the pieces up front to going back to that formula of how to beat the chiefs or how to give yourselves a chance.

They've got the guys to do it. It doesn't mean they're going to do it and it's going to work. But on paper, you can see it pretty clearly. All right, what's your last one here? Last one I've got is Brady's performance against man coverage. He ranked third in the NFL in EPA per play against man. So we're talking about fronts and pass rush plans and coverages and all these different types of things. And now going to the other side of the ball, Brady against us, Spagnolo and the Chiefs defense. Brady has not been nearly as good against zone.

He ranks 16th. So, you know, it's a matter of, I think, both the. these coordinators mix it up. You know, they don't have static schemes where they just sit back and play the same coverages. I think that's what's fun about both these defenses is that they're similar in that way where they can change series to series game to game quarter, whatever you want to call it. But I am wondering how they're going to match up with some of the Bucks weapons. I think Breeland did a good job on Mike Evans in the first game when he was matched up against him. How much are they going to split the man versus zone and who's going to match up with Godwin,

where are they going to line him up? Scotty Miller, Antonio Brown. There are a lot of different things, even going back to the tight ends, which we talked about. So that's just Brady splits in man versus zone, which I think is something to keep in mind when you see how Spagnolo dictates his game plan.

It's interesting. You look at some of the ways that the bucks have combated man coverage, especially in the latter half of the year, where you're seeing a little bit more pre-snap motion, some more bunches, some more stacks, trying to make sure that they can create space, for their guys.

But one of the things that a play caller, and I brought this up a couple times in the show, told me about playing against the Chiefs, who they, play caller, played against them earlier this season, is it's hard to chase coverages against them because they're so varied. Spagdalo is seriously just like a freaking madman. Like, it's just watching what he does. And Nate has brought this up, but I totally agree. He's the perfect, him, and like Belichick is like this too, obviously. But he's such a good playoff defensive coordinator because he'll throw anything at you.

There is no one way that he wants to do it. So he's so good at 10. And Dean Peas was like this too, where they can tailor these game-specific plans to certain offenses in order to slow them down. And I think because the Bucks have really done a good job of using formation and play calls to defeat man coverage, especially in the back half of the season, not knowing that you're going to get man coverage makes that harder to do. So there's some of these designs that if they're not play calls and just

overall approaches that can beat a variety of different coverages, you might be running into brick walls because you don't know what the chiefs are going to present you, which I just think is such a weird little chess game between Lefrages and Spagnolo and this game. And yeah, going back and watching it, I mean, I went back and watched like the first half of the week, 12 game today and then some other chiefs defensive snaps earlier in the season. Spagnolo is all over the place. Like being the defensive coordinator for this team is the greatest job because you can literally do whatever you want because if you screw up, it.

doesn't really matter. And he has leaned full force into that style. All right. My last one here is also Brady-related, so I'm glad we kind of dovetail there at the end. Brady has used play action on 25% of his dropbacks since the buck's week 13 by. That ranks 20th in the NFL. That may not seem like a lot. But from weeks one to 12, he was using at 18% of the time, which ranked 36th in the NFL.

The only guys lower than him on that list were Drew Brees, who you don't need play action when you're not taking any shots, and Ben Rathusberger, the Steelers used it on 9.8% of their dropbacks. Ben ain't using play action at this point in his career. We can say that as much. Yeah. If he turns his back to the line of scrimmage, I mean, by the time he's turning around, there might be issues. Philip Rivers too with that. That's exactly right. And so what was funny is, if you look at Rathustra,

and Breeze's numbers, they're bad. I mean, they're just, they're not much better with play action, Rathusberger especially. Brady, in that first 12-week stretch when they weren't using that very much, had the largest gap in the NFL between, in his yards per attempt, with and without play action. It was nine and a half yards per attempt, 9.7 yards per attempt with, 6.3 without.

So if you're looking at that, the logical conclusion would be, we need to do that more. Like, why aren't we doing this if it's so successful and we're getting so much efficiency out of it. And they have done that. So from weeks 1 through 12, 83 play action dropbacks, from weeks 13 through now, 64. So those numbers are getting closer and closer one another,

despite this being a much shorter period of time since they've made the change since the buy. And I just think it fits so well with, one, what style of offense they want to play. I mean, if you want to be this vertical attack, you should be using more play action. And it's allowed them to attack the middle of the field. I think it's worked out of 12 personnel.

even in like third down, that one play to Godwin where he inserts in the C gap and then spilled out against the Packers that they had. That was great. And they had another third down play action. It was third and three that they hit against Washington. So I think they're more comfortable going to it in these high leverage moments than they've been at other points in the season. And I just think it works really well with their quarterback strengths, what they want to be

on offense. I'm surprised it took them this long to get there. But I think them going to it a little bit more often has really really. unlocked and kind of opened up their offense. Ariens and Leftwich definitely deserve credit. You know, it feels like it was an ongoing conversation all year. Are they going to be able to make this work with Brady? Do they just want to do what they want to do?

Will they adapt to what Brady likes to do? How will it all come together? And now you look at it at the end of the year. And I know it hasn't been all Brady, but like their offense, but finished third in DVOA, I was looking at it. They were second and weighted DVOA. They were better than the Chiefs. statistically later in the season.

And even looking at that NFC championship game, you mentioned that Godwin play. That was beautifully designed. The screen to Gronk, that was beautifully designed. They had that other screen to Godwood on third in 14, where he picks up 15 yards. Like they were doing things to help their quarterback

and make his life easier. I mean, those are like wins with your coaching and, you know, some of your non-quarterback players on offense. So yes, Brady is asked to do stuff. I'm not, you know, pretending he's like a robot and it's easy to play or anything like that. But just those numbers that you reeled off there, I think, are a good illustration that they did adapt.

They made some tweaks, whether it was 12 personnel, more play action, whatever, and that those really did pay off towards the end of the season. My opinion of Byron Lefich has definitely changed over the second half of this year. You know, I thought that for the most part, if you look at last year and this year, it was a lot of just roll the ball out and play. And I think that that's not, I'm not saying that every team, with good players minimizes the coaching because that's not true at all but i think if you look at the style of offense the bucks had run and a lot of the concepts they had run over the last couple years

bruce is just running what he runs and they have really good players and it's working and this year especially in the second half i totally agree i just think that they've had more creative answers to more problems and it's made them so so dangerous on that side of the ball and like let's be frank here byron is very young as a play caller like He's only called like 25 games less than that. And his entire career as a play caller. It's only year two. And when it comes to these guys that are calling offensive plays,

we want to, you know, ascribe this instant genius to people like Sean McVeigh or Kyle Shanahan or whoever. Do you know when Kyle Shanahan's first season calling plays was? It was 2008. Like it was 13 years ago. And with McVeigh, he was doing it for several years in Washington with Gruden, before he even got that job. So in this lifespan of being a play caller,

and if the notion of being a play caller and the goal is to provide answers to your players as often as possible, it takes a long time to understand how to do that. And I think that we have seen appreciable improvement and growth in Byron Lefich in that area. And the bucks are benefiting from it. They look much more dangerous and much more equipped on that side of the ball now than they did in like week seven. Yeah, and it certainly was not the easiest situation. I mean, they have talent, but you have a quarterback coming in who wants to do things a certain way and certainly has his own opinions.

You bring in Antonio Brown in the middle of the season. Chris Godwin is in a contract year. You know, Mike Evans, I feel like there was a stretch of like four or five, six games where he just wanted to like fight the opposing corner every game. And so I'm sure there were some frustrations behind the scenes. But yeah, you know, they made it work. and the offense was a big reason for why they had success late in the year, and now they're in the Super Bowl.

It's going to be fun. Awesome. I really appreciate you doing this, buddy. Always good to chat with you. I certainly learned something. I hope everyone else did. If you guys have not, please go check out the piece that Shield and Ted wrote on the athletic earlier this week.

Was their run today? It's, yeah, my days are blending together. I don't know when it ran, but it's up there now for everyone to see, yes. So yeah, I wasn't sure if it ran Monday or went up on Friday, but it is on the site. You guys will be listening to this on Tuesday. Time is a construct when you're recording podcasts. So please go check it out. And are you writing anything else this week?

I have some of the prop stuff we talked about. I'm going to do a little gambling guide with some nerdy analytic stuff attached to it. So yeah, that's going to run probably by the time people listen to this. And I'm very excited now to welcome Utah Ute's assistant and former. NFL quarterback, Ryan Lindley to the show. Ryan, how you doing, man? I'm good. I'm good.

Thanks for having me. Always up to talk ball. Absolutely. I'm really excited to do this because the reasons you wanted to have you on. One, you played for Bruce and you have a really good sense of that offense. Two, you were a quarterback coach in the league for a couple years. You study the position. You are looking at the position constantly.

And I thought you'd have some really cool insights on what that offense is like to play in and just kind of the way it's evolved this year with Tom. So let's just start kind of at the most baseline level. When you started working with Bruce in the year that he got to Arizona, and you started to learn that offense and kind of get accustomed to it, how would you say it diverges and what makes it unique from some of the other systems that you've seen before and since? Well, I think in a lot of ways you look at it and he's, it's becoming,

I don't want to disrespect it by saying it's archaic, but it's built for a pocket passer, which very rarely do you see anymore. I mean, everybody's looking for a guy that can extend plays and have the ability to throw on the run and even be at a threat in the run game himself. And I think that's one thing that BA is still pretty much old school, that's how you want to say it.

But it's built for tone. It's built for a guy that wants to stand back and pick defenses apart mentally and with his arm and not so much, you know, extending plays with his legs and athletic ability. And I think that's the beauty of what you're seeing in the Super Bowl. is the old guard of your old pocket passer and the new guard of the best guy doing it right now,

which is Mahomes, and we're flying all over the field and making plays. So how would you say that? What aspects of it do you think are tailored to a guy that's going to sit back there and try to do things with his brain and with his arm? Yeah, you know, I mean, I think the one interesting thing about VA, I mean, he gets a ton of credit and acclaim for everything he does down the field and how explosive his passing game could be. So much of that starts off with running the football.

And, you know, he emphasizes that a ton, which I think, you know, when you look and you see Tom was successful in New England, it's the same philosophy. You know, they're playing great on defense. They're running the ball well. They got guys on the outside that can make some really big plays when they decide to throw it. So the interesting thing watching them is it kind of stays the same. There's not a whole lot that's changed from the aspect of, you know, they want to run the football. They want to lean on guys. And especially late, you know, if they get up, be explosive.

They want to get up, get a lead, and then kind of lean on you and wear you down and run the football to beat it out of you. It's so funny because when you talk to Bruce, he'll tell you that. He'll be like, I want to run the ball. I want to use play action to get shot. And I almost, there are times where I've been talking about stuff in the past and have been like, come on, man. Like, you want to throw it down the field.

Like, don't stop lying to me as you sit here. But he really will, like even to this day, hammer home. Like, that's a huge part of what he wants to do. Yeah, no doubt. It's all about in the explosive play. plays come by setting that up in the play action game. Yeah. It's fun to watch.

It's the same stuff that, you know, Carson Palmer was throwing to John Brown, you know, Smoky Brown, who's now doing his own thing elsewhere. But, you know, it's the same stuff. You know, he's finding ways to get guys down the field. And the best thing, I think, he's got such a great receiving core there. He accentuates each one of those guys's strengths. You know, I think he's such a good, good guy with personnel that he's not going to ask guys to do things that they can't do.

You know, I think between Mike Evans, Chris. Godwin and Scotty Mill. I mean, they just A-B. They've had so many weapons, but they ask each of those guys to do things that they're good at. And I think it works out for them that they produce for it. It's so true. And I think that's a really good point. And when you say it's archaic, and I think that even on this show, we've talked about how, you know, like, they do their stuff. Like they run their stuff and that's what they're going to do. They've used a little bit, a few more stacks and motions and crossing rounds in the second half of the season. But for the most part, it's very similar to what we had seen from Bruce in the past. And when you're grab, that sort of system onto really talented guys that you're asking to do things they're really good at, you can get away with maybe not being quite as complicated or having all of these moving parts at some of these other offenses we see lean on as much as they do. No, no doubt.

I think one of the biggest things that I always took away from VA was, and I say archaic, to kind of describe that more, I think the new age of football is spread people out, use the whole field, RPO's, you know, you have, how smaller boxes to run the football, whereas B.A is good with getting into 12 and 13 personnel and crunching that thing down and just pounded it, you know? And I think the beauty is that he sets that up. I think I haven't been around the guy that uses condensed splits

from the wide receivers or bunch sets with tight ends to figure out ways to get guys open and still spread the field out from there. I think it's just interesting how you make the defense have to cram down in there and defend the run, but yet also figure out ways to get explosively. can get downfield from those same sets and be good in the past game. It's interesting because you see Godwin kind of in that power slot role that Larry played, but Larry was doing that in Bruce's offense, especially, you know, the last couple years,

in the back half of his career. Godwin is this guy who can do a lot of similar stuff because of body type, willingness to block everything else like you're saying, but he can take it vertical. So it's almost as if they're supercharged that version and that position within the offense by putting Godwin in for a late career Larry Fitzgerald. No, no question. And Larry is still the greatest I've ever been around, in my opinion, one of the greatest ever do it. So you hate to say he's a, he's maybe a 2.0 version. He's just a, he's just a Tampa Bay version. You know, I like to say he gives up. If you watch Larry, some of the cutups that Larry had in the run game, I think will go down as one of the most undervalued, you know, things that he brought through the table. So I think, you know, maybe, maybe Chris, you know, he gives up a little bit or is lacking a little bit compared to Larry in that category. But like you said, there is a lot that he brings to the table. And I think Chris Godwin has gotten his first shake, you know, I think is finally getting some of the recognition that he's deserved there from playing so well even

before BA got there. I mean, he was, he was really a perfect fit to be, to be even more, even more, have the spotlight on him and be even more valued in BA system. Is there a concept or two that you've seen them run this year that's kind of that pure vertical BA offense concept that you're like, it's kind of like the Leo de Capro meme where you're like, I see it. Like, that's exactly what we used to. to run. Are there any, a couple of those you've seen pop up a few times over the course of the year? Yeah, you know, it's a little bit. It's stuff that it's a, I mean, it is a copycat league. Again, not to be disrespectful, but it's when things work, people want to do it, you know,

and I think you've seen a lot of people go to a lot of things that BA's done. And so much of it, like I said, is off the play action game. And I think he just, he wants to put guys, uh, either it's number two or number three wide receiver position down tighter into the box and just put them with a ton of speed to run by guys. And the hope is, you know, he's not going up against the, against the Bashar Breeland, you know, your number one corner. If he's down in there that tight, he's running by a guy who isn't your best covered player. And that one again, just to speak to the testament of, of B.A.

trying to put his best guys in the best matchups to win. And I think just, you know, he creates levels, you know, we call like a flood concept or a levels concept. You just find ways from different points in the field to create those levels, to create that flood into the defense. And, you know, it's the same stuff that a lot of people do. I think he just does such a good job of marrying it up to what they do in the run game. Is there a way that he talks about, I'm talking about Bruce, good hosting,

is there a way that Bruce talks about or thinks about quarterbacking that's just different than guys you'd been around? Like, when you got to work with him for the first time, were there any light bulbs that went off? It's like, I've done this for a long time, but I've never thought about the position that way. Yeah, you know, the one. one thing that I always appreciated about Bruce because I'm similar, you know, he's a bit of a blue collar guy, you know, and being from Virginia and I'm from Caliph, but it's, it's kind of, you know, let's put it where the goats can eat it, you know, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a TED talk every time we're talking about quarterback play, you know, I mean, he,

he does, he does it. And that's the one I've taken, it's not from him, but the biggest thing I've taken from VA is that, you know, he wants to put it simply. And he's a guy, and anybody that's played for him, I'll tell you, he's a guy, too, that we'll tell you when you're wrong and tell you with, with some enthusiasm. to put it lightly. So that's the biggest thing I always took from BA was you knew where you stood. You know, I think so many times in this game it becomes political and there becomes kind of some, some, you know, back, back locker room talk and back alley.

I was the back hallways is where you kind of learn about what's really going on. The biggest thing that I think BA gains respect from his players and especially his quarterback is he's completely up front and honest with him. And I think you saw that towards the middle of the year this year with, you know, how he handled some things with Tom post-game. You know, when they weren't on this 7-8-0 role they are now. I mean, he was very open, even in the media, with how he thought about Tom was playing,

and he knew he had a guy that could handle that. How do you balance that frankness and that honesty and being willing to kind of put guys on blast like that while endearing yourself to your players? Because guys love playing for him, and I think that that's a delicate line to walk for coaches. Yeah, I think. Just speaking to use another example, you know, I spent a little bit of a quick,

quick off-season training camp in New England with Bill Belichick and Tom. And I think the one thing that you gain respect from your players anytime you're consistent with how you handle things. And I think that's BA's number one thing is that to the fullest extent you can in the NFL, which there are always, you know, asterisk to that. But you treat Tom the same way, you treat the third train quarterback, you know, or you try to treat guys the same way and hold them to the same standard. And I think when you do that, no matter how hard you are on a guy,

he knows you're just trying to bring the best out of them and bring the best for the team. Do you remember one of those particular disagreements you and Bruce had on something where there was kind of a long, and more drawn out conversation about it? No, it was never a drawn out conversation, at least with me. Okay, a more heightened conversation, I guess. I wouldn't even call them disagreements either. I think they were aggressive coaching points really where really where they came from. Do you remember any of, do you remember any specifics?

Oh, sure. I mean, I probably can't get into the specifics. But, you know, the other thing I think to give credit to that, to how he teaches is BA always has a group of guy. It's a, you know, it takes a village to bring somebody up. You know, and he uses that. He's had Tom Moore in the building with him, whether it's Arizona or Tampa.

You know, Byron left, which is kind of taking that role, both in Arizona and in Tampa to kind of, you know, be that guy. And I think that's the biggest thing, is he kind of, B.A. is the guy that kind of comes down hard on you as a player. And then you have the O.C., you have the quarterback coach. You have other guys in the building to kind of, hey, now, I know he called you this, this and that, but, you know, this is what we're getting across, you know.

And it's just, and obviously it's one of the things I know because it's where I was the most in the NFL, but it's a great way. And obviously he's had a ton of success doing it recently. One of the things that I think is so interesting about the success that they've had, I watched Carson run it in like 2015. That version of it is the best I think that we've seen. I think he could have been the MVP of the league that year and that offense was fantastic. And it always felt like a high wire act to me, like a computer chip that if you got like a grain of sand in there, it would all go to shit.

And that's why I think what Tom is doing right now is so impressive. Because it's not as if it's this dink and dunk necessarily quarterback friendly offense. It puts a lot on the position and the degree of difficulty is extremely high. Would you say that's a fair characterization to some of the other just versions of offense and demands on the quarterback we typically see in other systems? No, absolutely. And I think it's a case you can see because it's worked best when BAs worked with some really high-level intellect guys. I mean, you go all the way back to when he was coaching Peyton Manning with the Colts. Obviously, Ben and in Pittsburgh, Andrew Luck back in Indy, Carson.

you know, I think it takes a guy kind of in that mold of being very cerebral, you know, I think to, now within that, I always say that, because I like to think I was a pretty cerebral guy, but you also need a guy that's going to pull the trigger and let it hang, so to speak. You know, I mean, he's had guys like Carson, you know, those guys with the confidence and the ability to make those big plays, too. So I think he does. He asks a lot from those guys, but I think he also provides a lot in support and, and different things personnel-wise that he does for. guys to make sure they're in the best situation possible. Was there one of, one of those downfield concepts where there was a throw that you were kind of asked to make within that offense that was particularly tough that you can remember. It's like, man, that is a really tough thing to put on a quarterback when you think about timing, depth, accuracy, a down the field kind of thing that he would go too often that you really had to home? You know, I think the biggest thing is BA puts an emphasis.

You know, you'll play for guys and certain coaches will be completely fine. with you throwing a check down and it being second and two on first down, you know. And even if a guy was open down the field, hey, if you didn't see it or if you felt like timing-wise, you needed to get the ball out. Whereas I think BA puts a premium on when we call the shots, we need to take shots. You know, I know there's no risket, no biscuit is a big thing, but he's all about it, you know, and it's in everything, how he teaches things that it's all about, you need to take it when it's there. You know, so I think that's one thing. It's more just a heightened and sensed of urgency to see those.

And so much of that comes with timing, you know, so for, for me, for a younger guy, for the guy that isn't the starter, it's usually a little tougher because you don't have as many reps or as many opportunities to see that. But the amount that he emphasizes that, it's no wonder Tom's been so successful and they've been so explosive. Those meetings that Bruce would have, I think, I want to say they're Friday night meetings, right, with the starter where you go through everything. Walk me through what that was like.

For people that don't know, I mean, Bruce is pretty famous for this. It's one of those things where you'll go through pretty much every situational call, what you like best, what you like, which you don't, and the game plan gets curated and kind of pared down in that moment. So what were those kind of interactions like and how different is that from what a normal play calling even head coach would be like with his quarterback? Yeah, and I think the interesting thing, which obviously Tom came with a ton of credit, a ton of juice, obviously walking in the door.

But being around when it was Carson kind of learned. it. It's really kind of BA's best opportunity during the week to really sit down one-on-one and pick and pick his quarterback's brain, you know, be able to be able to say, okay, I want to be calling it as you'd see it or as you'd call it. You know, I think, and it's, it's that relationship that every coordinator wants to develop with their, with their quarterback that says, hey, you know, on third and five in the middle of the field, at some point, you should know which play I'm in the call, you know, and almost finish the thought for him. So I think that's his his biggest thing over the week of work and then dialing it in right there with his guys to

make sure everybody's on the same page. And I think he's a guy that has the humility, you know, to say for the most part that, hey, if it's something that I love, but you don't, you're the one who's got to do it, you know. And I think that's something he's probably learned over the years is that, you know, I can love to play and we can love to play as coaches. But if the guy that's throwing the football doesn't love it, then it's not going to be executed at the level we want it to. my understanding back then is that i think freddie would come up with a lot of the third down passing stuff come to and then and then uh herald and or goody would come with a lot of the run game stuff and it would all this kind of be this convergence by the end of the week and i think that's been especially even now

you talking to bruce last year i said what's changed the most and he's like i just am delegating more than i ever have i'm doing more personnel you know byron's running all the meetings it's almost this he's like entered into this late stage of his career where he's a little chiller than he used to which if you'd known Bruce five years ago, it's just a surprising place for him to be. I never thought he would just kind of let go and not strangle all of that control that he was so adamant about having earlier in his career as a coach.

Yeah, I just think that's, you know, once again, it's a testament to how many good coaches he has in the building. I think between Byron, now it's a different dynamic than when I played for him because Goody was the O.C. as the O-Line coach. And I think now he's got Byron, who is essentially a second quarterback coach in the room or a second guy that sees it as the quarterback.

He's got Clyde Christensen. Obviously, Tom. He's got Blaine Gabbert, who's been in this system, a ton with him as a backup. You know, even a guy like Drew Stanton has come on as, you know,

their quarantine quarterback, so to speak, on practice squad for him. So there's so many guys that I think VA has so much trust in. That really, he kind of allows those guys to kind of, to kind of put the work in, so to speak,

and create the ideas. And he's there to give the final rubble stamp or clip what he doesn't like or kind of create what he sees for the big picture at the end. It's so interesting because I think that you could probably criticize some coaches around the league for surrounding themselves with people they're familiar with because that limits opportunities, right? If you're just giving the same guys all these chances and it's a good boy, a girl boys club, you're like, all right, I want the same people around. I think that stifles innovation.

But Bruce has done such an amazing job of doing that and having those familiar voices in the building while giving so many people opportunities they'd never had elsewhere. And I just think that that's such a fine line to walk, but he's probably done a better job than anybody of kind of pollinating his offense and his building with those different ideas from new and old voices. Oh, no doubt, no doubt. And I was going to say that I think in many ways

as I kind of start my coaching career, I've looked up to the way VA handles those things. You know, I think he has a perfect mixture of, you know, the way the profession is you've got to have people, in the building that you trust and you've been around and know how to run your system. But I think he's also done a phenomenal job of giving guys opportunities, you know, that he may may have trust in as a player or seeing him coach elsewhere. But, you know, Byron is a perfect example.

Exactly. Five or six years ago, you know, he gave him, he gave him his first opportunity as a coach. And obviously he's run with it, you know. And I think that, you know, in some ways he doesn't get enough credit for that either. I think he's been ahead of the curve a long time with a lot of things that the NFL is, has now come to light with and our eyes have been open to that that VA has kind of known and tried to push against a lot of the a lot of the things that you see normally. It's funny.

I remember him telling the story about Byron just not wanting to get off the golf course and Bruce just having to beg him to come do it. Because when you played that long, you've made that amount of money. It gets hard to go be an assistant quarterback's coach. It's not that easy to get off the couch after you just finished playing, but he managed to convince Byron to do it. So the one thing I want to ask before we get out of here, as you're watching the offense now, compared to what it would have been like five years ago when you were in it,

how have you seen Tom's influence and preferences kind of shape what they're doing offensively, especially over the second half of this season here? You know, it's tough to say because I think BAs evolved every year. And since I left, last year I was there was 2014. knowing that there were things that evolved even after that, you know. So I think it's a constant evolution for, for them. And you should be as a good play caller and as a good coordinator. I think you always,

you always constantly evolve with things that you see and you tweak it. So I think it just became, obviously Tom was a, was an invigoration of some really fresh eyes and some really fresh blood into the system. And you see that a little bit. You see that with some things that I think he's felt more comfortable with. And I think as you see the season go, though, it's almost the tale of two different halves or two different seasons. Because you see the second half of the year,

I think Tom has really, really jelled and gotten comfortable with the stuff that BA has done in the past. I think it was a slow progression of seeing that, hey, you know, I think by the end of the year, he'll be really running on all cylinders to be comfortable with the explosive game that the BA wants to run and call. It feels like it's just little tiny tweaks, like a little bit more play action, a little bit more 12 personnel, a few more crossing routes. so he's reading stuff left to right instead of top to bottom, just stuff that it feels like we don't need to change things wholesale,

but these are these little things we can sprinkle in to kind of make it a marriage between what you like and what we want to be. Oh, no doubt, no doubt. And that's my thing with, I imagine that's a culmination of 20 plus Friday night meetings. And I'm sure knowing the way Tom operates, I imagine that it's not just Friday meetings that he's happened with B.A. and Byron. So I think it's a culmination of those things of seeing how those guys have gotten on the same page. Like I said, I think he's never above calling what his guys comfortable with.

And I'm sure having Byron, you know, I never played under Byron, but knowing that he's a guy and hearing from guys that have it, he's a guy that's an advocate from that standpoint. You know, I think he sees it and says, listen, I've been back there. I've stood back there and seen the Bullets flying. And if it's something that he's not comfortable with, we don't need to be doing it. You know, so I think it's been a give and take there. and obviously you've seen they've been extremely successful. Last thing I'll ask you, having worked with Bruce and then being around Tom, even for that short period of time, when you had first heard that they were going to be working together,

were you surprised that Tom would want to work with Bruce when you heard that he was going to sign there? You know, it is from a standpoint of like it was kind of like two alphas, you know? Like you always wonder how that's going to go. So there was a standpoint. Now, Carson Palmer was a, you know, a veteran, I want to say, it's not hard-headed, but outspoken, had his way of doing things, was confident in those ways. Yeah, it, and I was curious. I wasn't skeptical by any means that.

I was just curious how that would end up. Now, that's another testament. I keep going back to it, but how many guys are in that building? You know, you got a guy like Clyde Christensen who's been around so many great players that I think you got so many voices in there to if there ever even was, you know, a knockdown, drag out, you know, discussion, as, as we can put it. You got so many, you got so many people in there to kind of, hey, let's, let's set the ship straight and let's find a way to meet the middle on this, you know. So it's obviously, I think it's something that, yeah, whenever you

get two alphas like that and two strong personalities, you always wonder how it's going to clash, you know, and it's kind of a, I always look at it as a boomer bust thing. And obviously it's boomed and not busted. I think it's so funny. And that's one of the things I've really come to appreciate as I've been around the league more is just how much the varied voices and the different voices within a building matter, when a quarterback is hearing them, how communication and how information travels, how ideas get, how they germinate, how they get created.

It's just that's something that I think that people outside of the NFL or people that don't really know how it works don't really appreciate just how much those different voices and their inputs end up shaping the final product. Oh, no doubt. Not doubt. It's probably one of the most, one of the most voluble positions in sports. You know, you got to really watch what you're putting into it. And obviously everything that goes into that room

and that individual's, you know, thought process has a strong correlation to how things go on the field. Awesome. That's all I got for you. I know you're busy guy. I don't want to keep you any bit longer. But I really appreciate the time. Really good to talk to you. Thank you so much for doing this.

No, it's all right. I appreciate having you. All right, guys, that's all we got today. you so much to Sheel for stopping by. Always good to chat with him. Thank you to Ryan Linley. Really enjoyed that conversation. We'll be back tomorrow. I'm very excited about this one with our team writers, Greg Alman and Nate Taylor, essentially talking about how the teams in the Super Bowl got here. I always think it's tempting to look forward at the game, but looking back to the process, I think is always really informative. Also, tons of great stuff coming later in the

week. Lindsay's going to be here. Nate's going to be here. Shows all through Friday. Please stop by. Also, please rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. You'd be doing me a favor. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic. We talk about the stuff. Shield's writing. We've got great stuff coming all week with everybody on the team here covering the NFL.

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