The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Bears, Raiders and 49ers beat writers

Episode Date: August 17, 2025

Robert Mays is just about off the road, but we've still got a double Beat Writer Notebook weekend for the masses. This episode features Kevin Fishbain, Tashan Reed and Matt Barrows, The Athletic's Bears, Raiders and 49ers beat writers, respectively. Can Ben Johnson be exactly what Caleb Williams needs? Is Pete Carroll the man to get the Raiders on track? Are the 49ers as ready for a rebound season as they appear to be? Learn the answers to those questions, and a whole lot more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)2:44 Robert Mays and Kevin Fishbain from Bears camp32:56 Robert Mays and Tashan Reed from Raiders camp1:02:57 Robert Mays and Matt Barrows from 49ers campHost: Robert MaysWith: Kevin Fishbain, Tashan Reed, Matt BarrowsExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Kevin on Bluesky: @kfishbain.bsky.socialFollow Tashan on Bluesky: @tashanreed.bsky.socialFollow Matt on Bluesky: @mattbarrows.bksy.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Kevin on X: @kfishbainFollow Tashan on X: @tashanreedFollow Matt on X: @mattbarrowsTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. It's our second beat writer notebook of the weekend. I did not end up going to Las Vegas for Raiders' Joint Practices, unfortunately. Had some stuff going on at home where I had to be at home. But I still wanted to talk to our beat writers there because I'm so interested in both of those teams.

So we did that. Chat it with Deshaun Reed, chat with Matt Barrow's just about the state of both of those teams. And then me and Kevin Fishbane got together at Hall to go over my personal insecurities, fears, hopes, dreams as they relate to this version of the Chicago Bears. We're kicking it off with Kevin. Let's get to that conversation right now. Joining us now from Hallis Hall in Lake Forest. It is one of our Bears writers at the athletic. I'd say that again. Ken Fishpan. How are you doing, ma'am? I'm good. It's good to be back

on with you. Good to be back at another Bears training camp where hopes are high. I guess. I mean, my first question, and it's always tough. I have a ton of respect. for this media core. It is, I was literally thinking this while I was watching the press conference with Ben today. It's crazy how many people are in that room compared to other teams. It's wild. Like the amount of people who cover this team.

But I think the questions asked and the answers, it's an incredibly high level discussion for a press conference setting. Like, you guys do a very good job. And he's willing to engage with you in a way where you do get something out of that where I think that's not always the case. So I appreciate that. But there's also a lot of coverage of this team based on what the press corps looks like And I think a lot of the tone of it from afar has been that the offense has been a mess.

And so I am curious, as someone who is here every day and has watched this, is the sky is falling mentality around all this right now warranted in your mind? Well, I mean, we are prone to gallows humor around here. Yes. And I think I told you, I joke with you last week. I said, here we go. Rob, we can talk about another bear's first round quarterback who's having a shaky second training camp with a new head coach and new scheme and the defense is playing well. And hey, that backup quarterback's looking pretty good. And are we worried this first round?

Like all those things. It's like hard to like we can, you know, logically say Caleb Williams is not Justin Fields. It's not Mitch Trubisky. Like I will say like those are different people. These are different coaches they're dealing with. But it's hard to sit here in this building and go through some of this stuff year after year after year and not be like, shoot, I remember what happened last time. Yeah, I've seen this movie before.

Yeah, and what I think what I always try to write and always try to say is I think the difference is Ben Johnson. I think that, you know, Ben Johnson is not Matt Eberfuss is not Mad Nagy. And I think that matters. This offensive line is not the offensive lines that those other guys had. And then the question is Caleb. What is Caleb Williams? So to answer your original question, I think it's been up and down. I think it's been bumpy at times, bumpier than you'd expect probably.

My biggest concern is I feel like Caleb Williams has not been as accurate as he was last year. Just like the precision of his throws last summer stood up more than this summer. Now, I don't know if that is a hyper analysis and I'm not taking into account X, Y, and Z. But that's the only thing that's like I'm a little like, I feel like I've seen him miss more throws than I'm used to. But like there have been some really good practices. I mean, you were just out there with me and, you know, the way he, handled the end of half drill. You made some big time throws.

And that's what he's capable of. So I'm just, I'm fascinating to see as we all are what it looks like, obviously on September 8th and how much this run game is going to support him, how much his defense is going to support him. And then how much some of these playmakers are going to support him? Because unlike those other two guys in their second seasons, maybe Mitch and 18,

like he does have a lot around him. There's no doubt. I mean, that room is crowded. And it's a good problem to have, but it's still something to sort through, which we can talk about here in his, in a second. We don't have to go over the whole Ben Johnson thing again. It was the correct

process in the moment, right? When where you are as an organization with the quarterback, his timeline, needing to get him to the right place, picking a guy who has been the coordinator of one of the best offenses in football for multiple years without an elite quarterback, it's the right pool of people to choose. Right. This is the correct process. If this doesn't work, I'm at least okay with how they went about finding the coach and why they landed on him. Two specifics from this practice, and I don't know if I'm allowed to say any of this, what I'm going to anyway, that I think lead me to have confidence in what the structure of this looks like. That two-minute trail that you're talking about.

And today was like an unscripted practice. They're calling it live. And so it felt more like a game. And so there was a third and a third down where there was a pressure look from the defense. There's trips to the left. Caleb is looking at the pressure look, flashes a little hand signal to Kolkhamat, a little quick out, balls out immediately. They get the first step. And so I think that the flexibility built into the offense and his feel for that, that's a good moment.

There's another third down where they line up in a spread formation, it's three by one to the left side. And he looks at the defense, sees the spacing. They shift into a more condensed formation, but he has a man's own tell based on that, immediately finds Olmeida's Zekees underneath to get the first down. Those little details of like how I'm making the game easier on the quarterback, those are the things you're going to see. And so that creeping up more and more and even just seeing a little bit of that on day one, it's like the details of this offense are going to set the quarterback up for success. I don't know when I've ever been able to say that with any sort of confidence at this stage. And I think if you're trying to convince yourself of how it can be different, that is the basis of how it can be different. I want to get to all that. But one quick

thing, Zakias, he's been one of the more impressive guys. And you got to see him and made one of his better days. Super useful player. Just like he's there when he needed him to. He's caught, he catches everything thrown his way. Eventually it's going to be Luther Burden in that role. presumably, you know, when Burden gets there. But like, when they made that signing in March before drafting Luther Bernden, you talked that was a guy where it was like, Washington did not want to

lose him. And, but, you know, and the bears got him and he just kind of has been the safety valve for Caleb wins. I thought Roma Dunzee had one of his better practices today as well. There was a ball that was maybe not fully on target that was one of those where he just went up and grabbed it, which is what he did in

college so often. But you're right, because like we look at we always talk about this. The best play callers put their quarterbacks in the best positions to succeed. And you want your play caller to cater his offense to the talent around him and not force his guy to play in his system

and all those things. And it's just like if Cato Blames, the theory of the Bears is we are making training camp as hard as possible for him so that when the regular season comes and it's Brian Flores in week one and it's the Lions defense in week two and on and on and on,

he's like, oh, this is fine because I had a deal with Dennis Allen and this nonsense all summer. So that's their kind of, they're prefacing it with that. And then just giving him these answers, giving him these options and trying to find ways for him to make it easy. The push and pull and how they're weighing this is very interesting to me. Because in talking to somebody on the offensive staff today and trying to get a little bit more detail about, okay, this idea of we're giving him everything and then we're going to pare it down. What does that entail? And what I was told is essentially they haven't repeated stuff.

It's all new almost every single day. And when you're doing that, you can't get better at anything. It's mostly about learning what you're bad at. And that's what Ben Johnson said this morning. He's like, we're still in the process. And the reason that we're doing it this way is that we have no idea what's going to work and what doesn't. And we're deciding what we're going to pare down when we get an understanding of we're good at this. I'm curious how you find the balance.

Like how much time do you need to start working on the things you're good at in order to get really good at them by the beginning of the regular season? but we're still three weeks away. But if you're trying to be optimistic about maybe why it's looked uneven, is that they haven't tried to get good at anything. It's solely figuring out what is going to work and what's not. And so hearing that, I can try to spin it in my mind of, okay, I feel a little bit better about what I've heard about some of the bad practices and how uneven it's felt. And my question to them would be, do you need to see a practice in which Caleb Williams is

just automatic, in which Caleb Williams, It's just, you know, pew, pew, pew, and just hitting guys left and right and leading drives down field and building a ton of confidence and putting up touchdowns and getting first downs. Like, do you need to set up a practice for him to do that by putting in some of the things that you know he's good at? Like, is that important to you to see? To build confidence, too, right? To, like, have him see the ball go in, I think will be helpful.

Yeah, it's the basketball. It's seeing the ball through that. Seeing the proof positive what you're doing. We haven't seen a practice like that. There have been some good practice. There have been some not so good. there have been some ones that are herky jerky. And so like, I sit here and I'm like, I would just love to be able to tell everybody who's not able to be here.

This was the day. This was the day that Caleb Williams became quarterback. But that is probably not the way they're looking at it. I don't think it is. Whether they should or not, I think is an important question. And like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if like, if that's just to me being like, again, sitting here through all these different quarterbacks who have come through here and being like, I was waiting for the day that Mitch would put it all together. You're waiting for the day of Justin and put it all together.

And you're kind of like, all right, well, now it's Caleb. Is there going to be these days where you can get to, because like, what's the number one question that you get when you're walking around town is, how's Caleb going to be? Yeah. How are the bear is going to be? And when people ask me, I'm like, well, I can only judge off what I see at training camp. And like, I haven't seen enough practices for me to feel super confident this thing is going to click early.

And that might be okay. My whole thing, Robert, and I mean, you would have a great perspective on this because of, you know, covering the whole NFL is like, What should our patience level be with Caleb Williams? I think it has to extend into the regular season and a decent amount into the regular season. I think so too. And you look at golf and you look at all these different guys who have these just different career arcs. And like Jaden Daniels and what C.J. Stroud done is it like screwed up the paradigm in a way.

Like this is hard. And what Caleb Williams had to go through from going from Maddie Brupp was and Shane Waldron to Ben Johnson and Declan Doyle. Like that's a huge shift for somebody who's 23 years old. and everything that he's going through. So it's like, I want to be able to sit here and say, let's see this. Let's see this out. But then you look at the roster moves Ryan Poles made. You look what's around him.

You look what other quarterbacks are doing. It's like, well, how long can do we have to wait for us to be able to say, yes, he's the guy. They're good to go. They can move forward. I mean, I don't know if you even have that this year. I think when I want to see them start to turn a corner is probably midway through this season. I think that's enough time. And you're like, we know what we're good at.

We know what he's good at. We know how to put him in the best positions to succeed. So I want to ask you, when the season ended last year, like, did you feel I know the bears have their guy? No. Right. And like that, like when people asked me last year, they're like, what are their expectations? I would always say them, you want to know in January, you want to feel the way that Texans felt. Now, maybe that's too high of a bar, but you want to feel the way the 20, 23 Texans felt at the end of the season.

Like, no matter what happens, we have our guy. And you just couldn't, it was hard to feel that way about Kim. You saw a lot of good things. and amidst a mess last year. And so now it's like, it's almost like take two. You want to get to January and be like, okay, we know the head coach is here and now we know we've got our guy. And I think that's a fine timeline.

If it takes that long, I think that's okay. But if you're telling yourself right now, we know he's the guy, you're lying to yourself based on what last year looked like. I completely understand how it unfolded the way that it did because the circumstances were so bad. But I think the circumstances are good enough now based on multiple seasons of Benham-Johnson being the architect of one of the best offenses in football, combined with the personnel that they put around him, even if it's imperfect in some ways,

I think there's enough here to know by the end of this season which arrow the direction, which direction the arrow was pointed. And the Bears have never had anybody like this with Ben Johnson. There's no doubt. They truly never hired someone with this background, ever. In my lifetime, there's never been a guy who was the architect of his former offense as an offensive coordinator hired to be the head coach. Matt Nagy was the offensive coordinator for Andy Reid.

No one with this background has ever been the Chicago Bears head coach in my 37 years on this planet. Honestly, the closest thing they ever got to that in terms of a play caller might have been Adam Gase, which sounds wild when it came out of my mouth, but when they brought, when John Fox brought Gase here in 2015. But that's, it's a Peyton Manning thing. Yes. Like, anybody who's been picked off of that Peyton Manning tree, Gase, Mike McCoy, like, there's been a lot of missteps pulling off of the Peyton Manning tree is all I'll say.

Right. But it's just somebody who like people, yeah, you had to acknowledge the Payton Manning thing, but at least you're like, okay, this guy knows. what he's doing. We've got this proof. It knows what he's doing. But you're right. I mean, the Ben Johnson thing, like, you just look at what the lions did. And it's like, wow, like that, he did it. He did it the highest possible level in football. And I like Jared Gough. Jared Gough is not one of Peyton, Jared Gough is not Peyton Manning or Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. I think it's totally fine to say that. Let's talk about the personnel on offense and just some of the questions that

need to be answered. When you're talking about when the switch kind of when they turn the switch, when it's like, all right, now we're starting to prepare for the regular season. Seeing Oz Tripio at right tackle today, that's a signal in my brain of we're starting to get there. Because if he's going to be your swing tackle, you need to see him start getting let reps at right tackle so he can play it if darn out right gets hurt. And so that to me is a sign of how the left tackle thing might be trending. Where if Ozzy's getting snaps on the right, he might be the swing guy. And when Braxton Jones gets healthy, it might be his job to lose. So I think that's really the only unsettled spot on offense as it currently stands right now,

correct? Correct. What you would love to see is Braxton Jones get every single first team rapid left tackle if that's the case which didn't happen to you had to feel benedette who is an undrafted guy out of canada who didn't play last year super curious about why they did that today and to benedith's credit like one of the first practices out here i remember him stepping in is the second team right tackle i was like oh okay that's like for him that was a big step to be in the mix to be one of the guys who makes the roster that's how we were talking about when first week. I'm like, that's a big deal for this guy. And now he's

suddenly like, the guy who was fourth in the left tackle competition was out there with the starters today. And maybe it's just today, maybe he's crying on a guy she comes back from the most recent injury he has, he mixes in. I just like, you want your left tackle who's going to be your left tackle in week one

to be getting as many reps as possible. Maybe Brexton Jones doesn't initially need as many because of his experience. I don't know, but that was interesting today to see what they did with Ozzy because you wanted to come out of the preseason game and show up today and have one guy be the guy at left tackle. Maybe it's asking too much, but that would have been nice for them to come on a

preseason game and go, oh, yep, we know that Braxton's our guy or we know that Ozzy are guy. Instead, it's, okay, we need not get Ozzy to work on the right side. He's not ready to be our starter yet. This Canadian guy, Theo Bennett, is showing some spark and Brackson Jones still needs some work. And that's not, I mean, again, all, the matters of the guy in week ones does a good job.

Maybe it doesn't matter how you get there, but you'd like to see that guy get more reps. This team has done a lot over the course of this training camp in the interest of competition. They've done some weird stuff, right? Like, they could say whatever they want. When Jalen Johnson's healthy, Tyreeks Stevenson is starting across from Jalen Johnson. It's not Nishon right. But I think that they've been really conscious of this.

And they've been conscious of this in the messaging and how they've handled practice reps. And so I'm inclined to think there's something involved there where like in the interest of competition, we're going to do something a little bit weird. If I had to put money on it right now, I think Brack. Jackson Jones will be the starting left tackle in week one. And I think that's okay. People on the outside that maybe don't understand this roster quite as much, I think are looking at this and being like, well, a second round pick might start at left tackle.

And kind of ignoring the fact that Braxton Jones has been the starting left tackle for the last two years, if Brexon Jones is your best offensive lineman when healthy, that's a problem. If he's your fifth best offensive lineman when healthy, that's okay. And I think that's probably the direction this is headed where Tripio will be the starter, starting next year when Braxton Jones moves on. but for right now, the guy with experience, there's at least a backstop and a floor that he's going to give you at that spot,

and I can get on board with that. Best case scenario for the Bears is Braxton Jones starts every game at left tackle, does a fine job, signs a four-year, $120 million deal somewhere else. You get the comp pick and you feel really good about Ozzie starting in 20. I think that's exactly right.

That would be the best case scenario from a roster standpoint. Obviously, the way that you feel good about that is making sure you feel good about Tripillo or Amagos. or and or amigaji. You got two day two picks back there. And the hope is that Kieran can be the swing tackle moving forward. And I think that's a totally fine thing for this to all play out. In the receiving core,

I think it's mostly going to be a matter of how, when does Luther get on the field and how often does he play with those other two? The way that they see the skill position talent is the way that I understand it is, even if Luther and DJ both have this real run-after catchability, Luther's route running allows him to play in the slot and be a little bit more of a nuanced, player than DJ might be. So the idea, because when they drafted him, I was like, there's a little redundancy here, but they don't necessarily see it that way. So I think having Luther, DJ and Rome all play together, they don't really see an issue in that and 11 personnel. And I assume as we get

a little bit deeper into the season, that will be the trio that we see more often than not. Yeah, I think so. I mean, Burn is just going to be a playmaker. He went to the second best journalism school in the Midwest. I don't think it was a journalism major, but should note that just for our listeners. I appreciate that. But yeah, I mean, the, the after the catch stuff. It is fun. I know it's practice and they're not hitting. Well, they did do some hitting today. But like when he catches the ball, the way he turns and goes, like that first step is really, really fun. I mean, you saw it at Missouri, especially in 2023. So yeah, I think that that he's that guy. I think they know they can put DJ anywhere.

Yeah. In the backfield, which we've seen a lot of in can be. That's another thing. It's going to be so nice to watch DJ Moore deployed in the way that DJ Moore should be deployed. Again, an imperfect player. but Ben Johnson knows how to use him in a way the previous staff obviously did not. How are you going to feel about the wide receiver screens? Fine, because I think that they'll be well designed. I think they'll be well applied. This isn't John Schoop world. Like, I feel good about how those are going to look.

It drives bears fans nuts. There was a time that they did it with Justin because it's like he and Caleb just because they got to get the ball out quick and this is the best way to do it. And then people go crazy because the guy will get tackled four or five yards down line. But if you watch Detroit and you watch some of these ways they do, do it. If it's designed up well and you get the ball in these guys' hands and it makes things easier for Caleb. He can make those throws. And the other thing, too, it's with Caleb's arm angle. He can do a lot of different things with those plays. I think it's born to prepare Bears fans that you might see some wide receiver screen. You should. With these past catchers, you should see some

of those because those can be explosive plays. The tight ends, I'm not really worried about it. I think that Cole is somebody that you probably need to manufacture space for Colston, somebody that is somebody that can create his own separation. And so in 12 personnel, I actually think this idea when you're living in 12 personnel, the goal is for if they line up in nickel, we can grind them down with the two tight ends. If they line up in base or some sort of big nickel, we have a tight end that we think is a matchup advantage on that bigger nickel player. I think with these two guys, if Colston is who they think he is, that is a realized thing for this offense in a way where it's theoretical for other offenses. So how many snaps he's going

to get and how it all shakes out? I don't really care. I think that their 12 personnel has a chance to be a strength of this team in a way that it's not for a lot of other teams. If it's Cole or Colston and 11 and who gets more snaps and all that other shit, I don't really care at this point. Colston is smooth. And it's been, it's been fun to watch him. I think he has been as advertised and he does not look like a rookie out there,

which is a high compliment. I want to see him obviously in games and see what he does. But you can see how different the two of them are a little bit and how you can use both of them. And one thing Ben Johnson has talked about before is the early part of his NFL career, being in Miami in the same division as New England. And the way that New England deployed tight ends. And now he was talking about this through the lens of how the Patriots would find different

ways to beat you every week. Yep. Between who the matchup was. You know, you and I always, oh no, I'm blanking on the running back's name, Jonas Gray. Yeah. Was that the guy who showed up against the Colt? Nobody had heard of. He ran the ball like 30 times.

I always think about that game. And Ben Johnson was on Miami staff for those, you know, for those years when the guy was The Patriots were just dominant on offense. And they had Grank, obviously. And then they'd mix in some other tight ends there in 13, 14, 15. But he saw that. And he saw the way that offense just used so many different guys every week. And I think that a lot of that has kind of shaped his perspective on how to how to attack teams.

I think that's right. And I think that as you try to figure out like roles and workloads for fantasy and this team, I think has real potential on people trying to tap into that. It's going to be frustrating. I was like Belichick was known for, as a fantasy owner, he was the worst. And I think that's what's going to happen. is it's going to be different every week based on what's going on. And I do think that all the pieces can come together in a cohesive way that makes sense to me.

The running back spot is the curiosity. After DeAndre Swift, how do you think this all ends up shaking out? Well, I'm really glad that I got a lot of praise sent to me about Kaumanangai when he was drafted. So I was kind of like, I would respond to people. I go, we're talking about a seven-grim pick. I loved watching Minangai. I watched a lot of Big Ten football, too much Big Ten football. Some might argue.

And I love the guy in college. But I understood it, seventh-th-round pick. And I go, guys, he's a soundground pick. Let's slow down a little bit. But then you've seen him out here. And he pushes the pile forward. He doesn't go down at first contact. He's been, you know, Rochon Johnson's out right now.

Roshan has had injuries throughout his career. Now, I say that saying, I was really eager to see Roshan Johnson because you'd want to talk about another guy who came out of the draft with a lot of praise. Yep. I mean, talking about him on the field and off the field. It's just the perfect guy. So I think if Monong guys, you're, you know, I think you're okay with those two. It does seem like it might be trending in that direction where he might actually beat Rochon out. Especially if Rochon can't get back on the field or can't get back right away.

I think that's something to watch. I think, you know, Bear's hands can be excited about it. I think Diage has just had a fine camp. I know it's really hard to judge running backs in a training camp setting. But I think he's been fine. I know, look, he's never going to be what they paid him. That's fine. And I think it probably hurt that he was in the same class as Sequin and Jacobs and Henry and the guys that obviously

were dominant last year and he wasn't. But if you go watch the run against Washington, the run against Green Bay, I know I'm cherry picking. Like London, you know, when the offense was playing well, you saw what DeAndre Swift could do. So, but you need,

I just don't think that he could be, you know, I don't know, 250, you don't want to be 250 carries. No. Like, that's where you're going to ask him Monongai, Roshan Johnson, to be that guy to really make this. It's like, I mean, it's a totally,

you can't compare it to Montgomery and Gibbs. That's how far away this combo is going to be, but you have to look at that as like a reference point of what Ben Johnson wants. You need an innings eater, right? And I think that's the back they don't have right now and Lesbona guy kind of takes that role. And it seems like he might.

On defense, there are just fewer questions to me, right? Like Jalen Johnson, based on everything Ben Johnson said today, it sounds like he's on track to start week one. And they're going to start, I think, folding him into some practices at some point to get him some mental reps. But he's a veteran. He'll probably take to it. do think Tyroo Stevenson win that other outside corner job.

Howard Gordon's supposed to be back. We know who the linebackers are. We know who the safeties are. The defensive line has a lot of new bodies this year. I think the argument is probably we're going to come in waves, even if we have no stars. I can talk myself into the defense being pretty good. And I don't think there's a lot of like unsettled personnel questions with that group. Do you have any?

Like where do you sit with that? No. I mean, I want to know what their answer is for number three defensive end, because if you're going to slide, sweat, Oro Dangbo inside on passing downs, you need that guy, whether it's Austin Booker, Dominic Robinson to be good. But do you want to take Grady Jarrett or Javon Dexter off the field in those downs too? I think with Grady it's probably more about workload over the course of the years and older player. And I think that third defensive end spot is probably the one that's worth bringing up. Booker was really good in the preseason opener.

But I think they like Dominic Robinson. The front office does. They've been really impressed with him. He had a really good spring. He said, good summer. they've always known he as an incredible athlete played quarterback, wide receiver before he moved to defensive end.

So maybe they're getting the most out. It's interesting seeing guy like him, guy like Noah Sewell, who's at a good summer, guy like Booker, guys from the previous coaching staff who were just kind of like these day three picks who were not doing enough in the regular season are now having these strong summer. So now you guys see it in the regular season.

My biggest reason for hope on the defense is the three guys I would highlight as being some of the best performers this summer are Monta, Sweat, Tremaine Edmins, and Jaquan Brisker. The first two, you need them to play at the level of their salary. Just based on resource allocation, you need them to be very good players. Sweets has had moments of dominance, and he hasn't missed a practice. Same with Edmonds.

He's had some moments where he's flashed, and you're like, okay, that's the Tremaine Edmins that they signed. Maybe it's, maybe, again, you go back, probably overpaid. I hate saying overpaid. Forget I said that because it's free agency. Yeah. It's what you do. but he's only 27.

Like, I assume there's room for him to, he doesn't have to, the way you were talking earlier about Braxton Jones, you know, Jamans is on a higher level and he's getting paid on a high level,

but he doesn't need to be the best player on your defense. And then Brisker has been flying around. And I just think that was somebody when he came out, there was so much excitement about what this guy could be as a playmaker. Unfortunately,

the biggest worry with him is you, you just can't control it. There's just nothing you can do about it. You just have to kind of hope and pray that he avoids another concom and he's talked about he switched helmets and he wants them he knows to keep his head out of the play But it's been fun to see him playing like the player he was supposed to be so the fact those three guys are having good summers The fact those three guys have been out there every day I think is really positive

I think with the ceiling of the past rush will ultimately go a long way in determining how good the defenses And if that group can play more like more than the sum of its parts if Montau sweat can be If not a dominant rusher than like a definitive number one rusher like somebody defenses have to consistently worry about and all the other pieces fall in a place and you get better play from Dio than you got in Indy, which is the entire point of signing second contract free agents is that you're trying to project into the future. I can squint and see them being a really good unit.

I get that. I don't think there are that many holes personnel-wise, even if the ceiling is probably limited because there are no dominant players up front. If this can be the eighth best defense in the league, this is all going to be about what Ben Johnson gets out of the quarterback. And again, like we said at the top, it's the same movie we've seen over and over and over again.

I just personally have think that this one ends a little bit differently. Because I can't approach it any other way. And look, they had the best defense in 2018, and we saw the wonders that did for Mr. Trisky in that offense. And we also saw an offense that year that took the league a little bit by surprise. I think a lot of people didn't really know what to expect out of Matt Nagy, and they benefited from an incredible season for Trey Cohen and offensive line health and a lot of different things. So now you have a guy you feel good about.

and if they can be a top 10 defense, again, it's just, it's field position. You have the special teams, too. It's a good special teams unit. So, look, this, you, the Bears fans have always wanted a quarterback they can win because of not a quarterback they just win with. And I think Caleb Williams is undoubtedly talented enough to be that guy, that he, you can put, he could put the team on his shoulders. But right now, you want to get as much support as possible as he grows into this thing.

And I think that they built this roster in a good way. and we touched on it earlier, but the Tuny Dalman-Jackson trio in the interior, I think it's just going to make such a massive difference for him. No doubt. I mean, how many times did you watch him,

especially late last season? He's escaping the pocket way too early because he just didn't trust the guys in front of him. And I think that's going to really, really help the run game, obviously, but also just giving him that comfort

that he can make some place from the pocket. The pieces are there. The pieces are there at the scope position talent. Look at this. We went from the start on the podcast. But none of this matters if the quarterback doesn't come together with a play caller. And I think I have reason to believe that can happen. But we're on waiting C mode until it does.

Kevin Fishpane, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always good to see you. We'll do this very soon. All right. Thank you. See you. Joining us now, it is our Raiders writer here at the Athletic. Deshawn.

Ray Deshawn, great to see you, man. Thanks for having, man. Good to see you again. How you doing? I'm bummed that I could not come to Las Vegas this week. I was originally going to come there for Raiders' nighters during practices. I could not. do it any longer based on some stuff going on at home with our new dog.

So I missed that, but I still wanted to talk to you and Matt Barrow's our Niners writer because I had already planned on doing it. And I'm fascinated by this team. So that's one of the reasons I was bummed that I actually couldn't make the trip. I want to start on a big picture level here. The Raiders over the last couple seasons, you're bouncing between head coaches, you're bouncing between general managers. It didn't feel like there was much of a cohesive or coherent direction.

I think that's fair. I don't think that's not ungenerous to say about. where the Raiders were. You bring in Pete Carroll, you bring in John SpyTech, and I think even if Pete Carroll's this deepened his career, the hope is that you're moving towards stability. And so I'm just curious on a day-to-day level as somebody who's covered this team for multiple years. What differences have you felt between the Pete Carroll Raiders and some of the teams that you have covered over the last couple seasons? I think the biggest difference so far this year is everything they've done is made sense,

which I know sounds like a little bar, but given that they've had as many head coaches and GMs as they had since I've been covering a team, which isn't that long. That's progress for them, right? And I think they were very intentional in offseason about making sure that they got their GM and head coach on the same page. They had all these kind of weird situations arise from firing people in the middle of the season and things that nature. And going back to this off season, initially they just fired Antonio Pierce.

People might forget, you know, initially they, you know, were keeping Tom Telesco around and the plan was, you know, the higher new head coach and have them work together and sort of an arranged marriage. But then they huddled together, and by they, I mean, Mark Davis and minority owner, you know, quotation marks around minority owner, you know, Tom Brady, you know, got together in Vegas and had some meetings and talked about it. And they decided that it would be best to start with a clean slate. And that's when they moved on from Telesco and moved forward with their process.

And, you know, everybody knows, I'm sure you as a Bears fan, you know, they went hard for Ben Johnson. Did not get them. But they did have a plan, you know, that wasn't, you know, all their chips weren't in the same table. You know, he landed on, you know, Pete Carroll and then obviously brought him John Spitech, who has a lot of history with Tom Brady from playing together at Michigan, also working together with the Bucks when they won a Super Bowl down there. And so there's a lot of alignment from top to bottom there.

You know, there's familiarity with the GM. Everybody knows who Pete Carroll is. You know, so even though Spitech hasn't worked with him in the past, he respects him given his accomplishments. And so I think they started off from a good place. And then when you turn to the roster, you have Max Crosby being that leader and that figurehead on the defensive side of the ball. And then you fix, you know,

the biggest problem that this team had from a roster perspective, quarterback and getting Gino Smith and also a guy that sets the tone on that side of the ball. And so, you know, this roster still needs a lot of work, in my opinion. But when you kind of just look at their big ticket moves, you know, since, you know, this year began hiring B Carol, Spitech, trading for Gino Smith, extending Max Prosby on that deal that's already aged really well when you look at some of these adrusted contracts out there. Everything sort of makes sense. Like, does that mean this team is going to be a playoff team this year? Like, probably not. But I, I do think that they can start trending in the positive direction.

And you can kind of see the vision for what they're building for, you know, moving forward. Does it feel different day to day? Just even being at training camp, what the practices feel like. I mean, there are elements that just feel different this year because Pete is there. And it just feels like a more, I don't know, buttoned up, you know, NFL type of operation. It feels more professional, I guess, is the way I would put it. You know, it feels like everybody kind of knows what they're doing and they're all, you know, working towards the same thing. I want to say, like last year

and Antonio Pierce, like, the team coacher was already in a good place. Like, it was very positive. You know, he had that part down. The players really rode for him all the way until the end. It's just sort of those ins and outs of being a head coach that he just didn't have a great grasp on yet. And, I mean, the gap in terms of experience between him,

Pete Carroll, so vast that you're not surprised by that. Sure. But that stuff matters. And, you know, and it comes through and the way that they constructed their coaching staff, their day-to-day operations, all of that. But at the same time, it's not like, it's all serious and business and buttoned up. Like to start at every practice, for example,

they do this weird little, like, drill where the coaches are, like, losing their mind. They usually play, like, some kind of hard rock or, like, a La La La Raps on with an aggressive beat or something. And everybody's just, like, running around. Somebody has, like, a giant Pete Carroll fat head. He's in there running around. And it's, like, just an energy drill, you know,

kind of just, and they have the basketball, you see the basketball hoop in the indoor facility. They still do the shit like that. Like, the Pete Carroll kind of fun, loosey-goosey stuff. And he's, you know, I saw him. that when one practice he like jumped in a tush push for some reason. Like he didn't tell anybody's going to do it. And he got stuck on the bottom of the piles.

So you see stuff like that that like, you know, feeds into the teen chemistry stuff. But he's also like he's been doing this for a million years and knows what he's doing from operational standpoint. So you kind of have the best of both roles with him. This offense, I think, is an object of fascination curiosity for a lot of people heading into this year. You know, Gino being dropped into a situation where your best pass catcher is a tight end from last. year you draft a running back in the top 10. It's just an interesting collection of pieces that I actually have some hope for on the other side.

Like I think this can be a fun offense to watch. What have the early returns been just watching Gino day to day with this collection of pass catchers with Chip Kelly? Yeah, so I think it's been a little bit up and down throughout training camp. And I think a lot of that has to do with what I think is going to be the central issue or kind of deciding fact for this offense is that offensive line. And that was a unit that, you know, it was really rough last year. one of the worst run blocking units in the league,

and they didn't pass protect well either. And he didn't really do much about it in the offseason, which I think surprised a lot of people, including myself. Like they signed Alex Capo that was really their only, you know, addition of note, and he's already pretty much been working with the backups at this point. And so it's basically the same group of guys from last year. And so you're putting a lot of stock in the office line coached Brandon Carroll, Chip Kelly, and Pete Carroll collectively being able to coach that group up.

I don't know how good that's going to work out. And when we saw it with Gino Smith the last couple years with Seahawks, They had a really rough offensive line. He couldn't really run the ball. And that's when we saw his interception number start to go up. And he kind of fell off from that first breakout year that he had with the Seahawks. And so that's kind of the big question. And that's been, you know, sort of the fulcrum of this offense to this point.

I do think they've gotten, you know, I mean, obviously it's a massive quarterback upgrade in Gino Smith. He's a guy that can make difficult throws even when it might not look open. He can navigate pressure in the pocket. He's mobile enough to escape and move around and mitigate that. Ashton Genty is a talented back, not just working out of the backfield, but you've seen him split out wide, working from the site, like running like legitimate downfield, like receiver routes, kind of like you see from a guy like CMC or Camara.

So they're going to use him in that way. Brock Bowers, obviously was an all-pro. And Jacoie Myers, like, he's a guy that's, he's not, you know, probably not a number one receiver, but he's a really, really good number two receiver. And a consistent guy from that standpoint. So they have those pieces, like you were saying, on offense. And Chip Kelly, I think, has shown some growth from the first time that he was in the NFL. but that offensive line is sort of that big question mark is like are they going to be able to make this all work you know can they run the ball can they protect gino smith i think that's still a question that's kind of hovering over this group

I have some faith in the offensive line and the individual pieces on the offensive line. I thought DJ Glaze, who's their right tackle. He was a third round pick last year. Had some nice flashes as a rookie, justified bringing him back as a starter at right tackle and just kind of figuring out what the interior would look like. And I'm going back and watching the offensive line in the second half of last season. I actually liked a lot of what they got from Jordan Meredith, who was playing guard for them last year.

And then when they signed Alex Capo, it seemed like they were going to move Jackson Powers Johnson, their second round pick from last year over to center. it felt like Meredith would be the odd man out, but he's been playing center for a vast majority of this training camp, but they've actually moved Powers Johnson to guard. Have they explained the thought process behind why they thought

that was their best five, even though it seemed like Powers Johnson had been drafted to play center? Yeah, so part of it and like JPJ, you know, was drafted play center and he prefers to play center. I mean, he's been pretty candid about that publicly. But, you know,

like they're trying to get the best five out there. I think with Meredith, while they liked what he showed last season, Pete Carroll, he just thinks he's too small to play guard. Like he said in the press conference. And so he thinks he's a really good player, but center would be a better spot for him. And when you're kind of taken into account, like Jackson Power Johnson, you believe he's a better player than Alex Kappa

at this juncture, his career. And so it just makes more sense to slide him over because they believe he could be as good of a guard as he is a center. In their mind, they think he could be an all-pro player at either position at one day, you know, way if he develops properly. And so slide Meredith over the center, moving him over to guard, which we saw him play last year. He started

games at left guard and right guard, Jackson Powers Johnson, so it's not foreign to him. It's not something he hasn't done before at the NFL level. You know, I think that's how that group of five came together. I know a lot of people are more worried about, oh, do they not like JPJ? It's nothing like that. It's just a matter of, you know, what unit gets your best five on the field. And that's not surprising because, again, I thought Meredith actually

showed pretty well last year, and him being one of their best five, I can totally understand that based on what we saw from him last season. The past catchers, we know what Brock Bowers is going to be. I think Jacoby Myers is a very nice player with better quarterback play. I think he can be productive. How they're figuring out these other two outside receiver spots and the way that this is shaken out. I mean, you did your 53-man roster on the athletic this week and you had Dante Thornton,

who is their fourth round pick from this year, just penciled in as a starter with Trey Tucker. I mean, that's a ton of speed outside and it feels like that's kind of how they're constructing that room. But it's a little bit of a surprise, no, to have a fourth-round pick. just have that clear of a path to a starting role here on August 11th is when you wrote that? Yeah, especially considered when they drafted a receiver in a second round. Yes. Got a lot of people's attention in Jack Besh.

But part of the reason why Bessch has fallen behind in that competition, because it's pretty much been since OTA's Dante Dorton, Trey Tucker. Like that's been the start two outside receivers since then consistently. And so it was decided pretty early on. Yeah, like it's been that way since, you know, they got here, essentially. But with BESH, when you look at his college tape, whether he's at LSU or TCU, really his best snaps came when he was kind of in that big slot role, right? And you already have a guy in Myers who's essentially a slot receiver.

You have Brock Bowers. When he's not there, Brock Bowers is your slot. And so where are the snaps at for Besh, right? Unless he can be a guy that can consistently win outside. And his game, you know, he just doesn't have those at speed, you know, to be able to pull away from defenders on the outside, to beat guys off the line of scrimmage in that way. And so he's a little bit redundant with Myers.

And I think that's been the issue. Whereas Thornton, while he didn't have much college production, he's 6-4, 65, and ran a 4-3 flat. So, you know, he obviously has the measurables. He's somebody that Gino Smith is very comfortable with, you know, throwing up those jump balls with him. And Trey Tucker, you know, is kind of the inverse of that. He's smaller at like 5-9, 5-8,

but he also has 4-3-4-speed. And he's become a more nuanced routerunner as his career has gone on and has had a pretty good training camp as well. And so both of those guys are speed guys on the outside. You have Myers as sort of that, you know, slot guy working on the inside. There just hasn't been room for BESH.

And I think this group that they have is really light in terms of being, you know, proven production. Like, Trey Tucker's been a okay player throughout his career, like more like a receiver three or four. And now you're, you know, banking on him to be a starter. And Dante Thornton, we haven't seen him play yet at this point. And so I get why people were worried about that outside receiver spot. And we kind of saw that against the 49ers today and joined practice.

those guys were, you know, they were pretty much pressing them almost every snap, and those guys were struggling a little bit to get off of that. And so we'll have to see how that goes when the season rose around, but that seems like that's going to be the plan. Like I don't see that group changing at any point before the season gets here. And Myers is a free agent after this season, correct? So, you essentially have a succession plan with Jack Bess there. This is probably should have started with this when talking about the offense.

What is this thing going to look like? Like Chip Kelly first go around is like an offensive coordinator in the NFL after all the time he spent in college. structurally, like, what do you think the DNA identity, kind of the things this team hangs its hat on an offense, what should we expect from that? I have full disclosure, I've not watched their preseason game yet. So I've not gone back and studied it.

So just structurally, I'm very curious about this. I'll tell you now, don't waste your time watching it because you'll get nothing out of it. Like, they basically ran nothing. They ran shotgun the entire game. They didn't take a single snap under center. They just ran the most vanilla thing in the world. So you didn't see anything in a preseason game.

You won't see anything on Saturday. But in terms of what the offense is going to look like, I think it's changed a lot from, you know, what people are probably are accustomed to when they think of Chip Kelly, those earlier years in NFL or even with Oregon. And we saw it a little bit at Ohio State last year at the college level. But I think particularly given the lack of receiver depth, you're going to see a lot of 12 personnel with this group.

With, you know, Brock Bowers we talked about, but also Michael Mayer, he's a guy that people forget. I mean, a couple years ago, he was like the consensus number one tight end coming out of college and expected to do big things. Hasn't quite panned out yet. last year he had some personal issues. He was away from the team for about six games.

He says back now he's in a better place mentally and emotionally and physically and seems to be back to himself. And they're expecting big things out of him. And so I think they're going to roll with that 12 personnel group pretty often. I think they let the league last season and 12 personnel usage. It just wasn't very effective. So they're hoping that that's better for them this year.

And then any time you draft a running back with the six overall pick, obviously, you're planning on and run the shit out of the football. So it's going to be a lot of running ball. They kind of switched to this. zone-based blocking scheme, which they experimented with last season. It didn't go well with Lou Gezzi as their offensive coordinator. Then they kind of switched back to the gap schemes.

Now they're going back to the zone scheme. And I think the makeup of their offensive line that kind of fits their guys best. Like they kind of have those lighter, more athletic offensive line, and they don't have those big bruising type guys outside of probably JPJs. And only got to fit that mold. And so I think it's going to be kind of more old-school than most people would probably expect for Chip Kelly. A lot of running the ball, a lot of heavier personnel usage. he's still going to mix it up, of course.

You're going to see that 11 personnel and splitting it out wide and kind of those screens and short passes and getting guys the ball out in space and allowing him create. But I think that's kind of what it's going to look like for him. Chip Kelly's kept it pretty close to the vest in the preseason games and even in practice, like he's not doing anything too crazy to this point. But it's going to be a lot different

than probably what most people are expecting out of Chip Killing. Bowers, as a Gino believer, Gentie, Jacoby Myers and somebody who believes this offensive line can be a solid group, right? There's going to be no stars here, right? Colton Miller is a good left tackle. I think that they have some young promising pieces. If you can get to middle of the road with that group, I think that's a win.

You combine it with everything else. I'm excited to watch the Raiders offense. I cannot say the same about the Las Vegas Raiders defense. And I think that Patrick Graham has done an excellent job as a defensive coordinator for pretty much his entire tenure, whether it was the Giants, whether it's been with the Raiders. There's a reason that Pete Carroll retained him when they came in with a new staff this year. It's hard to upgrade from a defensive coordinator of Patrick Graham's caliber. My question is, what the hell the personnel is going to look like? Obviously, you move on from

Christian Wilkins. And I bring back Malcolm Coons. Her last year is back in a one-year deal. Really flashed in 2023. He's a player worth betting on. Other than those two guys, Max Crosby and Malcolm Coons coming back from injury, what part of this defensive front should I feel even decent about? Because it's nothing but questions here. Like, as you look at position, even the corners on this team, I understand the story you're trying to tell yourself with that. The interior defensive linemen on this team and the depth on the defensive line, it feels like you're holding on to your hat.

Is anybody surprised where I should feel better about this than it looks on paper? Not really. And I mean, I think the elephant in the room here is obviously the Christian Oaken's situation. Like, you know, last year they signed them to a massive, extension. They expected to have this monster defensive line with Malcolm Coons and Max Crosby

and I don't think anybody really blinked at that contract. It made a lot of sense, but it just didn't pan out. I mean, you only played five games last year, had that Jones fracture, and then it became this weird situation this offseason where, according to sources, you know, the team believed that he needed a second surgery in order to

repair that foot and be able to play and he discovered that in March, but he didn't want to get the surgery. And that remained the case by June, and then that's when they avoided the guarantees in his contract. Ultimately, he ended up releasing him in July after some other things happened off the field between him and some teammates. And, you know, that was a guy they were banking on. I mean, Christian Wilkins, I mean, you know, people, you know, I know, I know, I know he's only had like one pro bowl in his career, but he's one of the better defensive tacklers in the league.

I mean, pass rush upside. He's, you know, an incredible run defender. And so to take that out kind of unexpectedly at this last minute, you know, it was after free agency, it was after the draft that you knew that you weren't going to have him around. they just weren't really prepared for that. And so you kind of just have a bunch of guys around at defensive tackle. You know what I mean? I mean, you have Jonah Lulu and, you know, J.J. Paguse and Tonkin Hemingway, a bunch of guys

that are either rookies or guys that haven't done anything yet. Adam Butler, I would say, you know, the last couple of years, he's been a nice player for them as a rotational sort of pass-risher type. I do like Adam Butler. I think it's like a penetrating pass-rrrrratcher. He's got something to him, but that's really where the list ends. Yeah. Like, that's it. That's it.

And he's not really known for run defense either. And so I think that's a huge concern, especially when you factor in their linebacker position. Like if it was 2019, you feel great about their linebackers. But today, because it's Jalen Smith, it's Jamal Adams, Devin White, Landon Roberts, Jermaine Pratt. So it's like a bunch of guys that, like, they were good at some point, but are they how good are they in 2025? Like, I don't know, you know.

So I think that middle kind of the spine of the defense all the way through. I feel pretty good about Jeremy Chan. I think he's been a good player. but there's some real concerns. And you saw that, I mean, right off the bat against the Seahawks. I know it's preseason, but they gave up 170 yards to the Seahawks against, and that was what their backouts playing. They didn't even play their starters.

And so it would look pretty rough, and I think that's going to be like a huge concern for this defense is. What's the answer there? Because I don't really know what it is. It seems like Alandon Roberts has kind of established himself as the starter at my climbback, which I totally understand. What Alandon Roberts is. He's a downhill thumper.

You can rely on him on early downs. We know what Atlanta Roberts is at this point. How real is this Jamal Adams thing? Because it seemed like he got signed as almost like a curiosity with Pete Carroll kind of giving him a shot. They move him to a linebacker. They explicitly tell him they're moving him to linebacker. And by all accounts, even things that you've written,

it sounds like he has a real shot to like get playing time at that weak side linebacker spot next to Landon Roberts. Where are we at with that right now with Jamal Adams? Yeah, I mean, he's in the mix for the starting job at Will Linebacker, which sounds kind of crazy to say given he's never played the position before this season. But it made sense in theory. I mean, you know, how athletic he is, his instincts, how effective he's been as a blitzer throughout his career coming down from that safety spot. He gained a little bit of weight, so he's heavier and able to throw his weight around in the box a little bit more.

But he looked pretty natural out there in his first preseason game against the Seahawks' old team. I think he had three sacks, or three, not three sacks, three tackles and also had a pressure on Jalen Millrow. And so it looked pretty good. And they just don't, I mean, another part of it is they don't really have a great answer there otherwise. I mean, as Devin White was coming off of a rough couple of seasons of his career. Jermaine Pratt, you know, I think is the guy that, you know, when he signed kind of at the end of OTAs, it was expected that he would probably just take a hold of that job because he's, I think he's been a pretty solid player with the Bengals last, you know, a few years, give a take.

He's probably, you know, better in past coverage at this point in his career, but he hasn't really been doing too much in training camp since he got here. And I think he's left it pretty open still. And so, Jamal Adams, like, you know, there's nothing guaranteed, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's a start of week one. Like, he's definitely going to be in the mix there. and I think also another part of the equation, like they don't really have a nickelback,

which is another issue for his defense. They lost three-hives, so they let him walk in free agency to the Packers, and they didn't really replace him. So Jeremy Chin has been lined up in Nickelback a lot, but he's not always going to be there. When he's not there, it's been Darnie Holmes, who, you know, I mean, at this point his career

is not doing much for you. So we've seen him, like, work some three-linebackers sets in there, which, like, I don't really know how much that's working in 2025, you know, either. So, you know, it's going to be weird. So he might just end up playing kind of in some funky lineups that Patrick Graham has to get a little bit creative to try to fill in some gaps on his defense. But it seems pretty likely that he's going to have some type of role on his defense at linebacker. When Jeremy Chin steps down to play the nickel, who's the other safety? So it was Lonnie Johnson.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Lonnie Johnson is out for the season. So who the heck is even back there? He might come back. He might tell you. They say he broke his schedule. You know, it sounds like there's a decent chance he might return somewhere around like the mid-season mark. But still, that's a lot of games.

You're going to have to do something without him. So far, it's been Chris Smith, who was a good college player with Georgia, but, you know, the Raiders drafted him a couple years ago, hasn't done anything in NFL. He's just been a special team's player. And so, yeah, that's it. That's it right now. So.

At Corner, all you need to know about how particular Pete Carroll was with the cornerback body types that he likes is that I think you could make a real solid argument that this was one of the more unsettled cornerback rooms in the NFL when it came to proven talent. Even the guy that seems like they're betting on more than anybody else. Eric Stokes, formerly of the Packers as a first round pick, has really struggled to stay healthy over the course of his career. So it was a precarious situation from the start.

And then they traded a guy who played a lot of football for them last year, Jacorian Bennett, for defensive tackle depth because he's not big enough to play for Pete Carroll. So now you're rolling with Darian Porter, potentially, who is a third round pick, Eric Stokes, who, again, how many games has Eric Stokes played over the last few years? and Darnay Holmes, who you just said, they're trying to keep off the field because they want to put another linebacker out there. Tell me why I shouldn't be terrified about this.

I don't really have a great answer for you. If you are, Rader's saying why you shouldn't be terrified because it's all traits, right? Like, that's it. You know, it's guys that are 6-3, ran 4, 3-40s at some point in their life. They're athletic. Pete Carol guys.

Like, that's pretty much how they built out their cornerback room. DeCammian Richardson is another player who he started out of necessity last year. he was really rough. Like, it was a rough go for him. He's been in the mix on outside as well with Stokes and Porter, trying to, you know, jockey for positioning. As of late, and, you know, it's like a new thing as of this week.

Kube Blue Kelly has also been in the mix at getting a starting snaps at cornerback. So it's not the most impressive collection of names. And the Jacorian penetrate, like, I think it was very clear, like, from practical. You could tell, I mean, he was running with, like, third stringers at some point. He just wasn't in the plans. It wasn't performance-based, though, because he looked really good to me. And last season, he only played 10 games

because he had a torn labor room, but he looked at some of his advanced statistics, like some of those numbers, like yards per target allowed. He was like, he had the same number as like Pats for Tann. So, you know, he was like really good last year. And so just trade out a guy like that because he's 5'10 and not 6'3.

Like, I don't know. That kind of struck me as I, especially given how precarious the rest of the group is. And if their pass rush isn't amazing, I think this is going to be a group that gets picked on pretty much every week because, you know, Eric Stokes at this point in his career, like he's okay at best. You know, Darien Porter, you like the physical skill set, but I mean, the guy has hardly played a quarterback.

Like in college, he had more special team snaps than he had snaps at cornerback because he was a converted rod receiver. So, like, I know he had Tariq Willen and Seahawks and that worked out great. Like, maybe he's three-go-in. But, you know, it's just, it's hard to imagine that this isn't an issue this season, right? And so I think it's going to be something you kind of have to take their lumps this year. So let me walk through what I see as like the ideal two-year plan for this version of the Seahawks based on what they did this offseason. This year, you just want the offense to be a good offense from day one.

Like if they're not a top 10 offense, then somewhere in the middle of the league and where it's like, all right, this is proof of concept. The offensive line jails. Some of the young receivers show flashes. Brock Bowers emerges as a star. Ashton Jente does the same. And we're a competitive offense from the start. And we can build on this moving into 2026. we have $80-ish million in cap space next year.

We'll be able to spend a little bit to microwave the defense. And by the time we get to next season, we'll have enough firepower on both sides of the ball to be competitive in the AFC. Do you think that is a fair representation of how they're thinking about the way the next couple of years should go? Yeah, I think if you gave them some truth serum, like, that's the answer, right? I mean, all you have to do is look at their moves this off season. Like, they had a ton of cash space this year. And they really didn't make that big splash move outside of obviously trading for

Gino Smith and giving him an 35-year-old quarterback. Right, right. But like, they didn't really do anything else. You know, even though they knew they had these issues at offensive line, at cornerback, at nickelback, linebacker, more depth of defensive tackle. They were just like, eh, you know, we'll just save this money and roll it over until next year. Anytime

a team does that, that lets you know they're not really pushing all their chips into the table. And I think that's smart, because they took over a roster that just, there's so many holes on both sides of the ball, like, unless you just have the greatest draft of all time and nail every free agency sign. And this team just, they're not going to be able to compete for a playoff spot this year, especially in this division, which might be the best

division in football, you can argue. You also don't know your roster. I mean, think about when Jai Spitek gets hired. Think about how little time you have to actually evaluate where the holes are. Coming in and writing a bunch of checks and trying to solve every problem, you don't even know where those problems exist. And so I think we see a lot of misguided decisions when you're trying to accelerate it that quickly.

Them taking a step back and saying, our swing is going to be the quarterback because we want some stability. We'll figure the rest out in time. I'm totally okay. taking that sort of approach. Yeah, and I think also part of it is this free agency class was pretty weak. I think about all considerations. Yeah, so it's like you're just going to go give guys a bunch of money just to say you're giving guys a bunch of money.

Like, when has that worked out for anybody, let alone the Raiders with all their free agency misses? We just talked about one earlier in the show. So I think it makes more sense to try to do that next year in terms of going out and getting a few guys. And then, you know, also part of it in terms of like it not being like a super long-term rebuild, peak Carol is going to be 74, you know, this year. And so, like, this isn't something where it's like they're just pushing it down the line. Like, you have to go for it pretty soon when you hire a coach that old. And so I think it is a year or two type of thing.

Like, all right, we're going to free agency this year. We need to get some guys in the draft, you know, obviously fill up whatever holes remain from there. And then you feel like you hope that you're in a position where you can go for it and compete in that division and hopefully make some type of playoff run. So I do think it was a two-year vision kind of from the jump. Like, obviously, P.K. I know he said it, like, the first week of training camp, where he's like, oh, I've been winning 10 games for 20 years. Cool.

but like this Raiders team if they win 10 games like you know he's one of the five best coaches in the league again you know all of a sudden If they're winning 10 games Chip Kelly and Patrick Graham are going to be very strong head coaching

candidates come January especially Patrick Graham I get it I'm excited about the Chip Kelly thing I love Gino I think that they have some interesting talent on offense but Patrick Graham was going to have to cook for this team to be competitive in 2025 I'm open to that idea because he is a fantastic

coach but there's just not a lot of walking through that door on that side of the ball. And we've seen him do it before. I mean, that 20-23 team, you just look at the roster. Like, you wouldn't have thought it would be anything crazy on defense, and they had a top-10 defense. Like, it's happened before. So I won't rule him out.

You know, he's one of the better defensive coordinators in the league, in my opinion, even though I know the numbers don't look great last year. So he could do it, but, you know, the odds just given to say that his roster, like they're just so thin in some of these spots that it's going to be, like it said, it's going to be tough sledding. The flow out offense is going to be so much higher, though. And again, this is going to be a group that I'm actually looking forward to watching.

and I cannot say that about the last couple iterations of the Las Vegas Raiders. DeShawn Reed sincerely appreciates the time, my friend. Great to talk with you. We'll do it again soon. Joining us now, it is one of our San Francisco 49ers writers here at the Athletic Matt Barrow. It's Matt, great to see you. Good to see you. Excited to do this.

A team that I think, justifiably a lot of people believe is going to bounce back in a big way this year. That starts with just better health, period. So that's where I want to begin this conversation. I just want like a health check for the San Francisco 49ers offense as we record this on August 14th. Christian McCaffrey healthy, Trent Williams healthy. Where are we at with Joanne Jennings right now? Because there was a thought that this was a calf injury slash contract situation. Kyle Shanahan has repeatedly said that's not the case.

If Juan Jennings is hurt right now, when can we expect to see him back? Kyle Shanahan has said that this is similar to something that he dealt with. at this time last year. Now, we never got, you know, they don't have to put out official injury reports. So we never heard CAF last year. We heard more oblique issues. But Shanahan's point is that this is something he's dealt with in the past. It kept him out of practice in the past. It didn't affect him at the start of the season. So that's what the 49ers are expecting. And so he's a big part of this offense because there's not going to be any Brandon Ayup to begin the season and there's not going to probably be any Demarcus Robinson who's been a really good,

steady contributor in practices. So they're going to start the season with John Jennings and Ricky Pearson as they're one and their two. It's really unclear who three through five are at this point because of those issues. shoes and because the guy who looked like he was going to be the three, Jordan Watkins, fourth round pick at Ole Miss, he suffered a high ankle sprain last week and he's out a month. And that's going to take him out of the September 7 opener in Seattle. So if you're talking about, you know, injuries and the biggest concerns heading into the season, I think that wide receiver is far and away, number one.

Without Bayeuk, it was always going to be fragile. and now it feels even more fragile missing those two guys. My assumption, we're going to see a lot of 21 and 12 personnel from the San Francisco 49ers early in the season. Would you say that is a fair solution to this problem that you guys have seen so far? Yeah, for sure. Twelve personnel, I mean, their biggest free agency addition was Luke Farrell. Who's that?

I told you a lot about their off-season plans. Right. He doesn't catch passes. He's a blocker through and through. He's like having a third offensive. of tackle on the field, I can only assume that 12 personnel is going to become a big deal for this team and that he's going to be out there. Obviously, George Kittle is out there.

Kittle has been the best looking guy this summer on the field, certainly for the offense. So that's sort of a saving grace for this team. He's been really hot. He and Brock Purdy have been in sync. Christian McCaffrey has been in the in the offense. They're not using him a lot this summer for obvious reasons.

But I do think that he's healthy. They're just not going to overuse him in August so that you don't have him in January. So, I mean, when you have those two plus Brock Purdy plus Trent Williams, I think that the offense is still going to be effective. But boy, it's not full throttle at this point. How is Ricky Piersall looked over the course?

of practices because obviously he had that flash late in the season he's a huge part of their plans not just from an availability standpoint at the position i think in a lot of ways what ricky pearsall brings to the offense is an indication of the evolution of this offense we saw that start last year which is more dropback and how opened up things were and ricky pierceal is just a different sort of receiver skill set than kail hannah chal shana hana has really sought out and i think it really speaks to where this group is going so he's a key component of that receiver groom comes coming together. I think the vision for the offense coming together. So what have we seen from Pierce all over the course of two and a half weeks of camp here so

far? It's been good. And I think you're right. It's hard to overstate his importance for the future and the immediate future, given what I just said. I mean, he's going to be the starter. They're going to have to rely on him to get open and to catch a lot of passes early. His forte is route running. He's sort of the separator, the, you know, make sharp cuts. creates space between him and the defender, gives Purdy a good target. And to his credit, he had such a disjointed season last year for reasons we all know well. He spent a lot of time with Purdy in the offseason. They worked out together in Florida.

They're both from Arizona. They worked out together there. They started to really get that chemistry together. And they both came away from the 24th season saying, yeah, there's room to grow there. So I think that was a big step in the right direction. You know, I was about to write back in the spring right before OTAs started that the single most important guy in OTAs for the 49ers is Ricky Pearsall.

And lo and behold, he had a hamstring injury right off the bat, knocked him out of all the spring practices, knocked him out of the beginning of training camp. But he came back a couple of weeks ago, and he's been good. He's shown up. I think some of that is fresh legs. You have to always keep in mind that the new receiver is going to look splashy because he hasn't been working out for 10 straight days. But I do think that those skill sets that Shanahan identified are there. They need somebody who can beat man coverage.

Lots of man coverage last year after Brandon and Iyuk went out. and after CMC went out as well. So they need somebody to do that. And I think that's the wave of the future. That's how they're going to marry this offense to Brock Purdy's strengths and Brock Purdy's weaknesses. He's not a big arm.

He's not Josh Allen who's going to find the slightest opening and fire the ball in there. He needs open receivers. He's a timing-based quarterback. And so I think the thing with. with Pierce saw is, and you saw the Denver Broncos doing this to him in the joint practice last week, they got their hands on him. They roughed them up. They rerouted him. He's got to be able to run through that and keep that timing that he established with Purdy together, even when there are all sorts of obstacles in his way. Last receiver question, any sort of clarity on a timeline for Brandon Ayuk?

Not clarity. Cautianahan did give the most specific timeline recently. He said around week six, and he said that as a sort of a catch-all for anyone who's coming off at 2024 ACL. So there are three guys on this team that have that, Brandon Ayuk being the most prominent among them. And so he said, yeah, I always think about week six for those types of guys. I don't think that IU's going to be there for the first four games. I think my sense is that he comes back. He sees, I forget what the term is, where they say that you can start practicing with a team. The ramp up period, yeah.

The window, they call it. The practice window is open. I think they'll open his practice window after week four, and then he'll practice with a team in week four and week five, and then maybe it's week six. Maybe it is week six. I think they play Washington. somewhat ironically, since that's the team that he wanted to get traded to last year in week six.

So that could be IUC's 2025 debut. Now, then we go through the process of, is this the real IUC? How long does it take for IUC to look like IUC, his 2020-self? So, I mean, that's probably another two or three weeks. So basically second half of the season is when you might see the quote-unquote real. old Brandon Ayyuk. And the real version of this offense, because I think his role in all of this allows everything else

to come together. The Christian McCaffrey being healthy part, but not really being a huge part of practices, should we be worried at all about his physical state heading into this season? Do you think that we will see a version of Christian McCaffrey similar to the one that we saw in

2023 when he came into training camp healthy? I do. Now, that's because I've been watching him in the and in the summer, and when he's out there, he looks like himself. He's 29 years old. He has a history of these types of injuries. I mean, is he going to play 17 games?

I don't know. You know, the older you get, especially at that position, the more prone you are to having something. So I just know that he looks good right now and that the 49ers are happy about that. I don't remember him getting a whole lot of run. in the 2003 summer and preseason either. He worked out heavily in the spring that year. And that was just sort of, remember, he had come in in 22.

He was still sort of finding his timing in this offense, zone running offense. It just takes a lot of practice to do that. I think he was doing that in 23 in the spring. But I feel like he mastered that in the spring. And in the summer, I don't want to say who was on an all. autopilot, but he was not, you know, pushing the accelerator down hard in 23, and yet he had a season that he did. And I think it's very similar to what he's doing now. The guy's behind him. I know there's a lot of injuries there right now. I think they just brought

back Jeff Wilson because they're so banged up there. Is that a situation where you think Isaac Orendo has a pretty clear path to the number two job there? Do you feel like Jordan James, who they drafted in the fifth round, could potentially be in the mix if McCaffrey were to miss time? Yeah, Jordan James is her too. He's got a broken finger that required surgery. So he's out, they're both out for at least a couple more weeks here. I think Arenda looked good when he was practicing. I guess the silver lining is that he's a guy that's had all sorts of lower body injuries, hamstring injuries throughout his college career in last year as well. And this is a shoulder issue that happened on a kick return drill. you see him out at practice.

He's doing a lot at practice. He's not going to fall out of shape. It's not going to be that long ramp up when he's back. So I do think he'll be the number two. You know, the guy who's looked really good is the undrafted rookie, Corey Kiner out of Cincinnati. And, you know, if he plays ahead of Jordan James, this would, you know, fit perfectly into the 49ers pattern.

You know, they draft. Joe Williams in 17, but it's Matt Breda, the undrafted guy. They draft Trace Sermon, but it's Jordan. Mason, yeah. Exactly. There's a long history of underdrafted guys outperforming more highly drafted players, especially at running back and it's falling into place. You know, Ty Davis Price is a Trace Sermon, both the third rounders that got outplayed

by somebody drafted after them. And I'm not saying that Jordan James is getting outplayed. just not there at this point. I think I saw Trace Serman and Ty Davis Price at some point this week. I saw Ty Davis Price is on the Packers right now. So that was a moment where I saw him. And then I guess Trace Sermon's on the Steelers now. I thought he was still on the Colts, but he's actually at the Steelers.

I do remember seeing him at Steelers training camp. So those guys are still around, just no longer are San Francisco 49ers. As someone, I just want you to, what is your response to someone like me? who looks at the way this team approaches the offensive line every year and finds it frustrating. The idea that Aaron Banks is going to move on, it's like, all right, Ben Bartch, you're the next guy up. We're just going to get by with this again. It's an organizational philosophy. They clearly believe in the way that they approach it.

How do they communicate to you guys why this is the way they want to build and construct this offensive line every year without a lot of high-end resources? They communicated that they feel as if playmakers are more important than linemen. That if it's a choice between a lineman in the first round and a wide receiver in the first round, they're going to go a wide receiver if their evaluations are the same. Because they think that the gap between that playmaker in round one, and the playmaker that they can get in round four, round five, is significant. They think that the gap between the offensive linemen they can get in round one, and the offensive linemen they can get in day three is not as wide,

and that they can coach that guy up to be a good player. Now, has that borne fruit over the years? You could argue, make a great argument that their issue at right, right guard cost them the Super Bowl back when they played the Chiefs in Miami in 2019 season and in Las Vegas in the 2020-3 season. Big mistake by the right guard, Spencer Burford in that game in overtime cost them a touchdown. And then Patrick Mahomes goes down the field, scores a touchdown, they win the game. So, I mean, that philosophy of playing it cheap at right guard in particular. And I know they've got Dominic Poonie there right now.

They didn't play it cheap with him. He was a second round pick last year. But he sort of fell into that role. I think that they had drafted him thinking that he would be the bank's replacement at left guard. And he had to make an emergency substitution last year at right guard. And it worked out very well. But the point is that they're not going to pay a lot of money for guards. It was not a surprise when they didn't pay earned bank because they hadn't paid any.

Guard previous to then. This is where they save money. They save money at Guard and they save money at safety. And that's where they go cheap. And that's their philosophy. And there are a lot of fans. Robert, I can tell you that you are among thousands and thousands of 49ers observers who say, why isn't this team drafting an offensive tackle high?

I mean, Trent Williams is 37 years old. Trent Williams has not started a full season since dot, dot, dot, 2013. So more than a decade of him missing, you know, a few games here and there. My point being is that, you know, his backup is probably going to come in this season. And who's his backup this season? It's the guy I just talked about. It's Spencer Burford, who's now a tackle because it didn't work out of guard. So they moved him to left tackle.

So, I mean, that whole storyline is sort of fraught if you've been paying close attention. So that's a big question going into this season. And, you know, one that they've answered, but whether they've answered it adequately, I guess that depends on the listener. I think it's an important thing to point out for this reason. The best version of this Niners offense, if things fall into place, this can be the best offensive football. We know that.

I just think it's a little bit more fragile. than you want it to be. More coin flips have to come up heads than you probably want for them to realize that path. And so I get all the justified excitement around this group heading into the year. But a couple of those coin flips go the other way. And this team may be kind of fighting upstream a little bit more than you want it to be. So just something to keep in mind as we kind of build our expectations for who this Niners team is going to be on offense. That's all that time on the offense.

The defense is actually where the biggest questions are. So we get to the defensive line. obviously they spent a ton of draft capital on the defensive front coming into this draft. They draft Michael Williams, the 11th overall pick, C.J. West in the fourth round, Alfred Collins in the second round. Kevin Givens, I believe, just went on IR. It's been a mainstay for them on the defensive line, a defense tackle for a long time. I mean, do we just assume that for most of this season, Michael, William, C.J. West, and Alfred Collins are going to be the guys that we see the most with Nick Bosa? Are they going to rely on the young guys to that level?

Yeah, there's Jordan Elliott, who's another veteran at defensive tackle. I think they'll lean on him early on for sure. But, I mean, it goes back to what we were just talking about. You know, why didn't they spend more money bulking up the offensive line? We're more resources doing that this offseason. Well, they revamped the entire defense, practically. You know, three quarters of this defensive line is going to be new. It's a new weak side linebacker.

That's the Drake Greenlaw position. You know, young, young, secondary. I mean, they could have one newcomer, Jason Pinoc, from the Giants playing at one spot to open the season, and then a fifth-round rookie, Marquis Segal, playing at the other safety spot. So a lot of changes on defense, you know, including the defensive coordinator, which is a change with a big asterisk since he's been here before Robert Sala. But, yeah, that's, that was the focus of the draft, is the defense. first five picks were defensive players and you're right you're going to see a lot of those guys

playing early. Mikel Williams and probably CJ West. He got injured today, hyper-extended his knee in Las Vegas. So he won't be in this upcoming preseason game against the Raiders. But he's played well to this point. He's been a quick learner and has shown the strength and the savvy to, I think, reassure. of the 49ers that he can play early as well. You mentioned the safeties and all the uncertainty there.

Is that a situation where Jair Brown is he penciled in as a starter? Or is that entire room kind of uncertain with Malik Mustafa still being out? Yeah, the whole room is uncertain. Pinnock has been out recently with a heel injury. I actually think that he's the safest bet to start. Interesting. He played for Sala with the Jets. He was a quarterback at that point.

he got cut, got picked up by the Giants, and then Saul liked him enough to bring him back. So he's his safety now. Played a lot for the Giants in recent years. Yeah, absolutely. That just kind of underscores where this team is at that spot. I mean, they just had a joint practice with the Broncos where Telano Hufanga looked really good for Denver.

He was their guy in that secondary. He and Malik Mustafa looked really good together. Talao Funga was a free agent, Malik Mustafa, in the season finale, heard his ACL. So he's one of those week six guys that I was describing earlier. So they have to sort of kind of fill things in until then. And I think, I mean, I would guess that the week one opening safeties are Jason Pinnock, who I just talked about, and this guy Siegel, who's a fifth-round rookie. and that would sort of fit into this idea of, okay, we're going to take our lumps early this season,

but we're going to get quality time out of some of the younger players. And we're going to win enough games in the first half of the season that in the back half, we're going to be better for it because of all the receiver dynamics that we discussed, because these rookies are going to be more experienced. And because the back half of the schedule is way easier than the first half of the schedule. a lot of home games, a lot of games against teams that were bad in 2024. I think that's what Shanahan and the 49ers are thinking. Has Jaya Brown just kind of fallen out of favor with the staff there?

Is that a reason that we're seeing a little bit of a shakeup? He's been injured too because everyone's been injured. And he was drafted when Steve Wilkes was the defensive coordinator. On the 49ers, the coaches have a lot of say and who gets drafted. He was their top pick that year. That was one of the seasons where the top pick went in the Tray Lance trade. So Wilkes got a pretty good sway in who he wanted to bring in. He brought in Jaya Brown.

He hasn't been great to this point. And I wonder if he makes the team, I wonder if they could get a six or a seventh rounder from the Jets, which is where Steve Wilkes is now, whether they would do it. but, you know, he's certainly in the mix to start because, like I said, everybody else is injured right now. He'll start Saturday against the Raiders, for example. He'll start with Segal next to him. But, yeah, I think that once Pinnock comes back,

he's probably the veteran of the group in there, and that Seagull is sort of the rising star. And the corner seems a little bit more settled in part because their third round pick up than Stout has apparently been in the mix at the nickel spot from the beach. beginning, right? So it's going to be him on the inside with Yamador-Linor and Renardo Green at the two outside corner spots. Is that pretty much settled at this point? I'd say it's pretty much settled at this point. The 49ers will never admit that they're,

they've circled a rookie to play in week one, but he's been good. He's been consistently good. He too is injured at the moment. I don't think he'll play against the Raiders, but out of central casting for a nickel cornerback. Small, feisty, quick, likes to chirp on the field. He's full of energy exactly what you would want in a nickel cornerback. They've doing fantastic and identifying guys at that spot. I'm talking about Kay Wong Williams when Lenore was playing in there.

It's something that they've been able to cycle through pretty efficiently since Kyle Shanahan got there now eight years ago. My God, we're all getting so incredibly old. We're relying on a lot of young guys on that San Francisco 49ers defense. Chris Kassurik and Roe. Robert Sala have their work cut out for them this year, but they needed to do something because things had fallen off there in a big way. No, for sure.

And that's part of the reason why they brought Sala back. He's got experience rebuilding defenses. He did that here in 17. His first year is D.C. And, of course, he did that when he became head coach of the Jets. Matt Barrow's sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you. We'll do it again very soon.

Sounds good. Talk to you guys. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Kevin Fishbane, to Deshawn Reed, to Matt Barrow's. Really enjoyed all of those discussions. I hope you guys did as well. Just a quick reminder, tomorrow on the athletic football show, the first episode of Building the Beast with Dave Hellman and Dane Brugler,

our new draft show, kind of new, right? Dan's had a draft show before, but we're really launching it because we just think this is the perfect version of how to unleash Dane on all of you. Him and Dave have worked together in the past. Dave is a huge college football fan and we are pumped about what this version of Dane's draft show is going to be. Obviously, the Beast comes your guys' way

every single April. This is how the beast gets built. All the work that Dana is going to be doing over the course of the season, you guys are going to get a front row view of it. Very excited about having that be part of our plans. Hope you guys are as well. So be on the lookout for that.

For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.