The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Panthers, Browns and Commanders beat writers

Episode Date: August 10, 2025

Look, you visit with eight teams in one week, you gotta have two Beat Writer Notebooks. In this edition, Robert talks with Joe Person, Zac Jackson and Nicki Jhabvala, The Athletic's Panthers, Browns and Commanders beat writers, respectively. How legitimate is the optimism for the Panthers offense? How do the Browns even measure success this season? What can the Commanders do to follow up on last season's unexpected breakthrough? Learn the answers to those questions, and a whole lot more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)4:01 Robert and Joe Person from Panthers camp27:21 Robert and Zac Jackson from Browns camp48:08 Robert and Nicki Jhabvala from Commanders campHost: Robert MaysWith: Joe Person, Zac Jackson, Nicki JhabvalaExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Joe on Bluesky: @josephperson.bsky.socialFollow Nicki on Bluesky: @nickijhabvala.bksy.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Joe on X: @josephpersonFollow Zac on X: @AkronJacksonFollow Nicki on X: @NickiJhabvalaTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, it's Robert Mays. Just wanted to give you a quick heads up that we recorded these Bearder conversations over the course of the past week before teams played their first preseason games. It shouldn't change too much about the topics discussed, but especially with something like the Browns quarterback battle and Shadur Sanders, I felt like it was context to keep in mind as you were listening. When it comes to Shadur's performance, I got to say I was impressed.

I can tell you that in talking to folks in Cleveland this week, Shadur was behind Dylan Gabriel in the quarterback pecking order. there. That was honestly based on a lot of operational elements in the offense, spitting out play calls, working through progressions on time, setting and checking protections. I think based on how that offense was taught to the players of Colorado, Chador came in with a little less foundational knowledge about how the position would operate in the league. And it just put him a little bit behind at the start of camp. But by all counts, it really matters to him and he's been putting in the work to get himself there. And as far as Friday night goes, there was playing a like, the

two rip throws he delivered over the middle to dig and that second touchdown, I think, showed the sort of accuracy and willingness to access that area of the field that we saw in college, had a couple quick game throws that probably should have been caught by better receivers, made multiple plays outside the pocket and with his legs, which I think might be an encouraging sign. I'll be interested to see how well it holds up against better defenders. That tendency to try and escape out of the back of the pocket got him in trouble a couple times on Friday and might become more of an issue when you're dealing with a truly messy pocket and not just avoiding a single rusher.

It's the preseason, but all in all, felt like Shadur really made the most of that opportunity, had some really nice moments as a passer, and showed that he has something to offer in this competition. I think the Browns have come into this entire experiment with a willingness to be surprised. The dice roll on Shadur is one you take when you don't have an answer at the position, and you're trying to give yourself every chance to find one.

We'll see what the rest of camp and the rest of the preseason look like, as Gabriel and Shadur get more opportunities. Okay, with that, let's get to the show. Today, it's another edition of our beatwriter notebooks from training camp, including conversations with our Panthers writer here at the Athletic Joe Person, our Browns writer, Zach Jackson, and our commander's writer, Nikki Javala. Hope you guys enjoy. Joining us now, it is our Carolina Panthers writer here at the Athletic Joe Persson. Joe, how you doing? I'm good. I was just remembering how you and I did this at least one summer, maybe two,

on the hill in Spartanburg, overlooking the Wofford College fields. It was nice down there. I was always. blown away by how well-manacured everything was. And I enjoyed those teams that go away and it's a little bit of a summer campy feel. This is a little bit more convenient, though. The fact that it's at the stadium and now we're just like in the stadium right now. The logistics are a little bit simpler with them being in Charlotte. I have to say nice things about Wofford because they got a lot of my money for my oldest daughter. But she's out now. And I kind of miss going down there for like the first weekend. But you're right. This is all very easy to roll out of bed and come to training camp. I drove from

Latrobe to get here over the last day or so. And part of the reason that I kind of went out of my way is that I really wanted to come here. I just am really intrigued by this team. We did a show earlier this offseason about our lingering questions from last year. Just because when we were talking about all 32 teams, there's really no way to dig deep on individual subjects during the season. And so I wanted to go back and be like, okay, how real was this Bryce Young thing? Like, how real was it? And I went back and watched and, you know, Derek is a little bit hesitant still. I'm kind of bought it. I really do think there's a lot to hang your hat on for what he was in the back half of the year. And now they go out. They get T-MAC. You have some young

past catchers that I think their slots make more sense because T-MAC is here. Do you bring back Shuba Hubbard? The offensive line is still intact. How much realistic optimism and justified optimism do you think there is for what this offense can be this year? I think it's justified. And you really hit on many of the reasons why. I mean, first of all, and this is interesting, too. Last year at this time, this was a new offense for Bryce. And he'd already been through, it was onto his third play caller as a pro player, because we know the Frank Reich Thomas Brown stuff.

But I think Canal is the exact same thing with Caleb Williams this year. He's on his third play caller because it was Thomas Brown and Shane Waldron. Thomas Brown is always part of these musical chairs moments. Ms. Brown is the best guy, too. But I'm sure you saw this from before, but I think Canales realized that last year, sitting Bryce those first two preseason games was a mistake. And, you know, he's going to play this week against Cleveland. He's going to play next week against Houston.

And not going to play a lot, but getting those full-speed game reps is important. And I think Canales, you know, Pete Kemp. Carol used to do that, still does. And I think it's going to be good for Bryce and the offense to maybe hit the ground running in week one instead of, as you said, taking till so late in the season to come together. But man, when it did, week 18 in Atlanta was a blast. It was fun watching that offense. And, you know, Panthers hope, that's a sign of things to come.

When you ask people here, okay, you're one to year two, what is going to be different about this? I think their answers make sense. It was establishing kind of a baseline for what the offense was supposed to be last year, kind of keeping it sleek, streamlined whether that's the run game or what they were asking of the quarterback. You bring back a majority of the same component pieces as far as the starters go this year. And I think it's allowed them to build a little bit more diversity into what the run game is going to be. And then it's putting more on Bryce's play. Really, the only new piece you're worried about working in is TeamAC.

Other than that, it's all guys who have been here. And so I think that the ability to have some flexibility at the line. of scrimmage, to have him be more in control. You're starting to see that grow. And we never know with rookies. But this idea that you can drop this big target X receiver into this equation, while everyone else is slowly growing and kind of adding that low layers to this offense, I don't know what the ceiling for this group is, but I don't know, man.

I kind of think they might be pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. And we've seen some up and down days from McMillan. And some of that's to be expected. And honestly, most of his struggles have been press coverage. And they're throwing it at him every day and not by accident. Whether it's J.C. Horn, who's now, of course, injured after this car wreck.

But he and Mike Jackson, they're just up in his face, every one-on-one rep, most team reps. And that's how he's going to learn. I think that's great. And he's had some days where it wasn't real pretty. But when he gets downfield and, you know, he's one of these guys, as you know, he's always open. That catch radius, the hands, all of it. And so he's good. This, this offense, it could be fun. The line is such a key to it, but they brought back the entire offense and not just the first five. It's like the first eight or nine guys. Brady Christian Satan, Cade Mays, like all the depth pieces are even

still here. I love that you brought up the J.C. Horn, Mike Jackson part of this, because I think part of the, not that there was doubts, but if you had any reservations about McMillan, it was the physicality that he's bringing to the game. I said this pre-draft. He's like a volleyball player when you watch him in ways both good and bad, right? The catch radius, just the athleticism, how flexible he is. But the physicality to me is like, where are we going to get that? Is that going to come? And I had a fun nugget talking to a coach this morning when they said early in camp, they were purposefully not throwing flex when there would be defensive hold. They were essentially just making him work through it playing against J.C. Horn because they

didn't want to cut him any breaks. And even a couple of weeks, in, they're already seeing some of the benefits of that, where the increased physicality is starting to emerge. And that's how you can start getting really excited about what the total package of Tederoa and Macmillan can be. Yeah, I agree. And it's funny. When we talked to him last week, he said, I guess I've got to earn my stripes.

I'm not getting any calls out here. So he either heard about the little deal or he was just recognizing he wasn't getting any flags. And it's brought to mine, Cam Newton, saying he wasn't old enough to get a, a roughing call from Ed Hockely a number of years ago. But, yeah, we're talking about this offense. We haven't even mentioned J.T. Sanders. Like, I always get these camp crushes on tight ends. And so Chetavian Sanders, he's getting a ton of reps because of Tommy Trembles' back injury.

But he came back. And again, you're watching 32 teams, so I don't expect you. He came back lighter and leaner and faster. I have heard this. And I do think that he's an important piece of the offense. Again, we're thinking about what the growth looks like from some of the young players. And I think Leggett is also part of that, which we can talk about. But J.T. Sanders, the way that they want to play and being really flexible and using a little bit more tempo,

if you have two tight ends on the field and you get a certain type of defense, maybe you get big nickel as a result of that. Or you're able to dictate personnel. The ability for him to split out creates a flexibility within this offense that I think they really want to tap into. And I don't know how much we can or can't say. seven on seven today, he's lined up as the solo isolated receiver with three wide receivers to the left side. And so I do think that he's an important inflection point for how they want to deploy this personnel. So the fact that he has come back in a little better shape, he feels a little bit more dynamic. I do think that's actually really important. Yeah. Yeah. He's,

he was on his way to a pretty damn good year last year and out here against the Chiefs, week 13, whatever it was, he got flipped and landed on his head after. He was, he got flipped and landed on his head after a catch, yards after the cat. And he missed a game. He avoided serious injury, but he wasn't really the same after his targets went way down. So there's, he's someone, I know this is, you're not doing a fantasy show, but fantasy folks might want to keep their eye on JT. Sanders. I do think that he's going to play a decent amount, even with Tommy Shremble back in the folds. And the Legate part of this that I think is really important. And we talked about this in the moment when they drafted McMillan, but it's something that came up in conversation.

morning, Leggett was forced into a role where he was having to play the X receiver because they didn't have another one. And now with McMillan in the fold, you're able to kind of deploy Leggett in the way he should be used, where he's this burner, take the top off, we're creating separation for him. The lack of nuance in his game matters less because McMillan is here. And that's why I'm really excited about this because not only is Tedrona and McMillan a really player in his own right. I think that he accentuates the strengths of the other guys in the receiving

room in a way that makes everybody better potentially. Yeah, I mean, you said that very well. I mean, I don't have a ton to add on Xavier Leggett. He's got to be more consistent with his hands. You know, I'd like to see him. I've said this to somebody this week. Chuba Hubbard and Tommy Tramble, even through this back injury, they're out there after practice for a half hour, 40 minutes every day on the jugs machine. One of these days I'd like to look out there and see Xavier look at. I'm sure he's doing his own thing.

I'm not suggesting he's not working at it. But those are two guys who very visibly have improved their hands, you know, through the, you know, strength of a thousand passes being shot at him a day out of the jug. So it's, yeah, it's an interesting offense.

It's intriguing. Are they going to be a situation where they're going to have to outscore the opponent every week. You know, I know we're going to turn to the defense at some point. Two more questions about the offense for you. One, any personnel curiosities, like, it all kind of feels settled. Like, Rico Dattle is the number two back here. I think he'll have a role.

They really like him. Other than that, it kind of feels like all the pieces are kind of in place. Like, Coker and Thielen will have their roles. And I guess Hunter Renfro is kind of the other big question of, like, what sort of prominence do you think he has within this offense? Because apparently, even outside of what you guys are seeing, they've really liked what they've seen from him so far. Yeah, they do.

And they've been very cautious with him with this hamstring injury because of what you just said. They think he adds a real element from that slot. You know, a little different slot than Thielen where he's so shifty, heck of a route runner. Dabo Sweeney was here a couple weeks ago. He said, there are route runners and there are craftsmen. And Hunter Renton is a craftsman.

And so, yeah, that was the name that immediately came to mind in terms of any, you know, anybody else we should talking about for this offense. I like this Bryce and Tremaine guys second year out of Stanford, probably a practice squad. We saw him make great catches today against the Browns. But Hunter Renfro, I mean, it's tricky. He was out of football for a year. I mean, he's already dealing with soft tissue stuff. but he's worth keeping an eye on. And just one more beat on the fantasy stuff,

it seems to me, just by virtue of his role here, the fact that it's been day one with the ones from the start, McMillan is going to be the focal point of the passing game. Would you say that's a fair representation? Sure feels like it. Yeah. I mean, even today, and we're taping this on Wednesday

after this joint practice with the Browns. I mean, you saw it. He drops a ball in the end zone. When ball is a little behind him, although Canal is said, you know, Bryce putting it in a spot. where the defender would not be. McMallon drops that, but then two minutes later,

Bryce is going back to him in the end zone, catches it to wrap up seven-on-sevents. And the last bit of context, I think, you know, with Bryce, last year it was, okay, now he's established himself as he deserves a chance to prove that he's the guy, right? Like, he is our guy for 2025. The optimism here, I think, goes beyond that. I don't think there's any lingering doubt

about whether Bryce Young is the guy they want to be the quarterback of this team moving forward. And I was curious about that because how excited are they for him really? This is a guy, a team that benched him at one point last year. So is this a, oh yeah, for this year, he'll get another chance. He's our best option. Or is this we really believe in what we can build around Bryce Young moving forward? And it really does seem to be, even in casual conversation, the latter when you talk to people in the building. I think so. I mean, the one area, And, you know, we're all careful when it comes to money. And so we talk to – and then I've had private conversations with folks in the building,

but also we talked to Brandt Tillis. Last week, their cap and contract guy, really bright guy, who helped do Pat Mahomes contract, the record-setting contract. And so we were talking about – to Tillis about a second contract for Bryce. And he said, you know, I've only had to do one. And Pat made it pretty obvious. He said, I'm not going to sit up here and start saying when or if. But he called Bryce an ascending player.

And I think that's a great description because he hasn't arrived yet. But the hope and the belief from all the decision makers and his teammates in this building is that he's going to get there. He is ascending on his way to being a playoff type quarterback and a guy that's going to get very rich with his. second contract. Not there yet. So I do think there is a little wait-and-see, but it is a very optimistic wait-and-s.

I think that's totally fair. Where he fits and at what level you think he should be paid, you should absolutely wait until the end of this season. We got half a year where he looked like a playable NFL quarterback. I feel like I am cautiously optimistic. I think a lot of people here are optimistic, but there's no reason that I think you have to pay him right now. The market is not going up for a player like Bryce Young.

I think we kind of know even if it's in the optimistic case, you're paying him like the golfs and the Twas and things like that. That market's kind of set. I don't think you're getting ahead of any market if you're having to pay Bryce Young right now. So I'm not surprised to hear that at all. All of this excitement about the offense is potentially offset with some doubts about the defense. This team spent a lot of money in free agency, a lot. And I think the way they shopped in free agency totally attracts to me.

Bobby Brown, Deshawn Wharton, Trivon Merrick, this is a team that is not close, and they know that. And so they're building in free agency with second contract guys that are young that have a little bit of a runway. They'll be better on defense. The question is, will they be good enough to be competitive if their offense does turn into this sort of unit? I think it can be. Where would you sit with that right now? Yeah, I'm a little skeptical. I really am.

And maybe that's from having sat through a season and watched them give up 3,000 passing yards. It's one of the least talented defenses I've ever seen in an NFL field for an entire season. And they knew that. They were under no illusions to be different than that. That's right. And so you're not going to fix that in one offseason. But they do get Derek Brown back, which will help against the run. And that was where they were really bad.

I said 3,000 rushing yards they gave up. Only four teams have ever done that. And so what you had was second and short, third and short. There was no pass rush. You know, there was just no third in longs where Jadavia and Clowney or DJ Wanham could go eat, as they said. And so I don't know. I look at this edge rusher group. You know, they, Clowny wasn't a great fit for a young coaching staff.

They let, they cut him. You know, they got Pat Jones from Minnesota. He's okay. He's okay. He's a good third or fourth rusher. And they drafted these guys in the second and third round. Nick Scorton and Princely, Ooman, me, Allen. I don't know. I'm just a little skeptical about where the pass rush is going to come from.

I think that it's an interesting combination because Scorton, I think, has a high floor because the play style that he brings. He's going to be an edge setter. He's going to be a tone setter. I love that as you're trying to build an attitude on defense. Princeley is a bendy, undersized guy. When you watch him out there in one-on-ones against the offensive line, He's just dramatically undersized.

And so I think he has a high ceiling when it comes to the pass rush element of it. But I think it's going to be a little bit of a learning curve because he is just underdeveloped physically compared to some of these other guys. Situational, you'll be able to use him. But how much he'll be able to contribute in your one as he learns how to kind of deploy that skill set in the NFL? I think that's going to be the biggest question. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to gloss over DJ Wattam. I like him.

He is a guy. He had this terrible health thing where he had. infection and MRSA. And so he didn't step on the field until where were we? Germany. He finally got to, it was week 10 and makes his debut. And he made an impact. And I don't think he's a 15-sat guy, but maybe he gets you 10 or 11.

And that would be, you'd take it from what you saw from this defense last year. I think the goal on defense here should be, let's not be embarrassing, right? let's maybe be like a not bottom eight defense, I think is a realistic goal. And then how many guys are we going to find that we can build with moving forward? When we get to the end of this season, how many pieces do we consider building blocks? By the end of the year, do we feel good about Derek Brown, Bobby Brown, Prince Lee, Scorton, Trevin Mary, and Jay C. Do we feel like we have a real foundation with which to build? You mentioned it.

You can only do so much in one off season. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say the two spots where it's like, all right, this is, we have stop gaps for now. We know we need to get better here over the next two years. Offball linebacker where Christian Roseboom is acceptable, but you need to get better than that. And Mike Jackson is your second outside core spot. Those are the two spots that would come to mind from. And maybe one of the safety spots. Yes.

You know, right now they're lining up Merrick and Nick Scott. Nick Scott was not real good for them last year. but maybe that's where they're hoping. They did draft in the fourth round, Lath and Ransom. So I think Lath and Ransom will get a shot. I think by the time we start some football games, I think that Lath and Ransom will absolutely have a chance to be a player in that defense. And he should.

I mean, again, not to sit here and slander Nick Scott. He's fine special teams player, a good depth guy. But I think you'd want Lath and Ransom opposite Trey. Then you got two, it may not be two guys with great. range. And that could be an issue. But both those guys will be very good and run support. Anything else about the defensive front of mind for you? Anybody that's flashed, any kind of lingering concerns or anxieties you have just other than the general talent level on that side of the ball? I told you on the field. I wasn't going to bring this guy's name up. But here I go with Corey Thornton,

the third undrafted. They like Corey Thornton, right? He played four years at Central Florida. He finished at Louisville, undrafted. He's long. you see these corners. It is right cut out of the cloth of the Pete Carroll, Seattle, you know, long corners, long arms, six foot one or taller. And Corey Thornton, we don't need to waste a lot of breath on them. But he's going to make the team and being maybe in the rotation. Here's why I think the Corey Thornton thing is worth mentioning. They really like Corey Thorne. That's where this team is on a development timeline on defense. It's all about how many guys can we find? How many guys can we stumbling? How many guys can we stumbling?

humble into. And I really appreciate what Dan Morgan on the front office did in terms of how they approach the defense. But sometimes these front offices, they try to accelerate the timeline. They want to get ahead of themselves with the types of players they're bringing into the building. Clowning is a one-year stopgap thing. We just need bodies, right? This year specifically, it's like, we're going to be really young and we're going to see what we got. And I think, based on where this team is, it's the exact correct way to think about it. And that's how a guy like Corey Thornton comes into the mix. There aren't a lot of people that they've invested in. They're going to block his opportunities to show what he can do, whether it's in practice or

elsewhere. So I think it's worth bringing up just with where this team is and how open-minded they are about finding players because that's the stage they're currently in, especially on that side of the ball. Yeah. Yeah. I like the way you look at that because I'm just kind of thinking about are they going to be any better than next year or excuse me, last year. They have to be, by the way. Just by the law of averages, they have to be. But bigger picture, you're right. Like, what about 26?

What about 27? And we've got some pieces they hope that they can build around. Yeah. And I think that you have some young pieces on both sides of the ball where you hope they can be foundational. But this is all going to come back to the quarterback. And I think the flashes he showed last year again, it's why I felt compelled to get my ass down here because I think that there are a lot of reasons to be at least intrigued.

by this team at the very least. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, it's why you woke up at four in the morning in West Virginia and got in your rental car and came out. I wasn't going to mention that, but that is what happened today. I'm doing okay. All things is considered. Joe Persson, always great to see you, sir. Really appreciate the time. We'll do this again very soon.

All right, buddy. Likewise. Joining us now, it is our Browns writer here at the Athletic Zach Jackson. Zach, how you doing? Getting older out here every day, but otherwise I'm good. I feel the exact same way. My back has been, this one in particular has been. trying me, unfortunately. But it's been great. It's been great to see everybody. It's great to see you. Anything going on with this team? Just a little bit.

You know, probably wish there was more completed passes, right? It's been a whirlwind start. You know, some of it expected. Some of it not. Obviously, losing Martin Emerson is a huge blow. So I think even though they don't come out and say it, I think there's an understanding here of the awkward spot that this franchise is in. I still think there's some excitement. I don't think this necessarily has to be one of the worst teams in the league. But this quarterback situation does not appear to be great. It appears Joe Flacco is going to win it going away, which is fine. But how long is it going to hold up and what are they going to do after that?

And how do things sort out? Like 10 days into camp, Robert, we don't know. There are various reasons. We don't have any other answers on that. But we really don't know. So it's back out here at an hour and see what happens. We're recording this before practice. And so I'm going to ask you just mechanically, what has this looked like?

How have they split it up? What is the actual collection of reps and why in your mind is Joe, Flacco really take enough substantial lead here? So all through the spring, there was, by design, extra reps for everybody. Even Rookie Minicamp here, which is usually super instructional. They had competitive seven on seven, 11, and 11 periods because they said, we have to see the quarterbacks throw, right? So what it was for the first four days, essentially the first week here, was very structured.

It was Kenny and Joe alternating, but Joe got two days off of the competitive periods because he's done this. It was Shador and Dylan alternating with Dylan Davila. with the ones and getting more reps overall. And then what happened is on the end of day four, Kenny Pickett gets hurt. And so they had said they had always planned to deviate away from the simultaneous seven-on-sevents and get more in.

But things changed because he's been out here for practice with the exception of three days, but in no competitive drills. And they have to take care of a hamstring so you don't lose them for the season. So that has put Flacko's rep count way up, which was probably going to be up day eight or nine compared to the first few days anyway. And it's led to an interesting situation to where Dillowell's, has really struggled on three of the days, like really noticeably struggled. Shador has been better, but then had a sore arm and didn't throw Saturday.

So he's coming back today. Kenny Pickett is not coming all the way back today, but they're only here for one more day. They go to Carolina. And I think that was always, you know, you're against another team. That's the most important evaluation. But the evaluation here is mixed for many reasons. Joe Flacko winning the starting job now.

I think there are a couple of different ways to look at this. One, he gives you a certain floor. I can understand that to an extent, right? Because we have the visions of him a couple years ago when this team made the playoffs. I think the floor with Joe Flacco is lower than we probably want to believe it is based on how that season went, but also how last season went when he was in Indianapolis. But even if he does give you a little bit of that floor, and I'm with you, I think there's a path for this team to not be the worst team in the league because the offensive line talent is still pretty good. The defensive talent is still pretty good. My question is, what is the two or three year plan?

Because if Joe Flackos, your starting quarterback this year and you're a seven and ten, eight and nine team. Are you going to regret not getting more looks at Dylan Graybiel and Shredor Sanders? Does that matter if you're going to draft a quarterback again next year? Your offensive line is good now, but you don't have any young pieces. It's just, it's a strange team because I think some of the sky is falling look at it for 2025 is probably overstated, but the sky is falling look at it over the next two years. I don't think is that not overstated. Well, every team opens camp, right? And everybody's healthy and everybody's undefeated and everybody's going to the playoffs. Except here are the owners saying, yes, we definitely need to see the rookies play

this year before we make our big decision next April. So what are your expectations for the Browns? There they are. And then he follows that up by saying, yes, the coach knows this. Right? And of course, right? Like, they all signed up for this together. And this is what it is. Before last week, what did Jimmy Haslum say when he talked?

We took the big swing and miss a quarterback, right? And that cap hits not going away. The draft picks you gave away. Just show up every single time you watch this team practice. Right? So how's it going to go, Robert? The rookies have to play. Dylan Gabriel to me looks in no way ready to play in the NFL. And all indications publicly and privately are Shudora is in no way ready.

Now, can that change by November? Sure. I think there's a path to keeping all four and seeing what happens because I don't know that either rookie's ready to be your backup. And what if Joe gets hurt in week one? It can happen to any quarterback, but especially a 40-year-old, right? So the conversation about Joe's floor is valid. And if you are looking to the future, why play a 40-year-old? Great question.

He's been in this locker room before. He's been in this offense before. This has been so devoid of leadership. It's been such a constant mess, nine starting quarterbacks in the last two years. That Joe Flacco's cachet, Joe Flacco's arm, Joe Flacco's presence, give you that steadying force. When you look at that schedule, they just have to try like how to win two games. And that's the guy that by far to me, maybe it's different in a week, but that's by far the guy that gives you the best chance to do that. I was talking about the floor.

It was relative to the league in general, not the floor relative to the rookie. I think that's something that's worth considering. It's like his floor is maybe lower than a veteran stopgap quarterback in your mind, but it's certainly higher than the third and fifth round picks that you could put out there. Well, when you talk about floor near in this building? I was looking at numbers the other day just because I was curious about something. And I looked up offensive EPA per play since 2000. And they're dead last.

The bears are 31st. Like it's just some things like are organizational elements that persist over time through multiple regimes, multiple quarterbacks, like just how it's been here for a very long time. The floor is lower than you think it is every single time. Let me give you a number. In that stadium, 10 miles up the road, Joe Flacco is the third winningest quarterback of all time in that stadium. Okay, Baker Mayfield has the most wins. Ben Rufflesberger has the second most wins, and Joe Flacco has the third most wins. So what is the ideal outcome for this team on offense? Does it matter what the results are? Does it matter what the win-loss column is?

Because that's part of this, too, is that if there's a mandate that we have to play the rookies because we have to get some information on them before we move forward, Kevin Stefanski's, they were picking second overall last year. Can you afford to go four and 13 again, even if you just got a contract extension? There's so many potentially competing motivations here that it's just hard for me to square how it's all supposed to come together in a cohesive way. And we talk about the quarterbacks and we watch the quarterbacks every minute out here, right? But for the starting offensive linemen, the best,

for all four really good careers in their own right. They're only signed through this year. Yeah, right. And they're all 30 or above, you know? So that is an interesting question. So what's it look like? Well, it's supposed to look like Quinn Sean Judkins, getting 200, 250 touches,

proving himself to be a number one running back going forward, even if he's not a superstar right away. He's not here. It's that offensive line giving you a chance. It's David Adjoku playing for another new contract and trying to achieve a level of consistency that he never has. So I don't, it's, really interesting.

You know, we know what a Stefansky offense looks like. And for four magical games, we saw Joe Flacco run that offense like a few others have. So that is your shell answer to what it looks like. And then, you know, do guys stay healthy? Do guys perform? Can you run the ball? They couldn't run the ball at all last year. But they couldn't do anything.

But not being able to run the ball, put just a burden on everybody. The O line, the defense, the quarterback, the coaches all involved. So without Quinn Shot Duncan's in the mix here, is there a chance that it's just Dylan Samson getting 275 touches behind a pre-D offensive line and that's how you build the foundation of this thing. Dylan Samson listed at 200 pounds and in no way is he 200 pounds. It's not going to be your workhorse back. So Jerome Ford was always going to be 1A with an asterisk, right? He's done it. He's a productive player. He's been best in a number two role, in a

complimentary role. He can really run. He's in a contract year. I don't know whose team he's going to be on on November 1st, but he's going to get opportunities here. Samson's going to get opportunities here. If they're not going to have Judkins and with each day, it looks less and less likely they'd have them for the start of the year, regardless of what the legal outcome is, they're going to have to go get a bigger back because they don't have that guy. Ford's listed generously at 208. And like I said, Dylan Samson has shown, he's impressed me a couple days out here, but he's tiny. He is a third downback who's just learning the ropes of the NFL.

It feels like the worst case scenario here is you get a couple flashes of the rookies and even over the course of the season, you get to the end of the year and you don't know, right? Isn't that probably the worst thing that can happen is that you don't have clarity on how you should move forward, no matter what the actual, again, numbers and wins and losses end up looking like. It is. However, Shador being a fifth round pick means if he shows you a little of anything, you bring him back, and he doesn't necessarily affect what you do next day. I think that's right. So in your mind, it's Shador as that guy more than Dylan Gabriel based on what you've seen so far in the talent is not close, right? So how are they going to

handle this week, let alone three months from now? I don't know. But since day one out here, Shador Sanders has looked to me like an NFL quarterback. And of nine days so far, the best throw of the day has gone to him more than anyone else. So how's he going to handle pressure? How is he going to handle continuing to learn everything, which all these rookie quarterbacks do, right? All of them were in hurry up offenses, not, you know, just one read, all this stuff that we could go through. Everybody knows, right? But Chador has talent.

He has, the accuracy is really impressive when he's on. You know, it's one of those things that's like watching a three-point shooter. You don't need to watch it go in if you see his hand. So when Chador makes those good throws. So can he, what's going to happen? to him in these joint practices in preseason games, there's probably going to be some good and bad. Can he progress with that? Can he learn from all that and go forward? He can be potentially a starting quarterback in this league, but I don't think you have to, or probably not going to get to make that

decision over the next five months. Last question about the offense. Pass catchers. How do we think the role shake out? How does the hierarchy shake out? What sort of targets are we looking at? How is that room going to be built and deployed in your life? Yeah, if Deonté Johnson makes the team, then he's going to play. He has no guaranteed money. we'll see he's been mostly running with the twos so far Jerry Judy's the clear number one we have not seen a ton of great chemistry with Jerry or Njoku in Flacco yet

it's the third practice in August right we'll see that but they made a big bet on keeping Cedric Tillman who had a really good stretch last year before missing the rest of the year with concussion they need him to be a red zone playmaker he has real size and they need him to use it this team is so desperate to have one of those draft picks hit they're so so desperate to have one of those

third round picks become something. Okay. Here's your guy. Harold Shannon. Yeah. Third round tight end. He's going to play receiver. He's going to play fullback.

He's going to play for this team. And he might be why David and Joker moves on from this team three months from now or certainly eight months from now. I was mostly, it was the third round picks in the last four years. Like this is actually a full draft. Like in theory, you could get a couple players from this draft, even though starting off with the Judkins thing is just this team. And it's inability to extract value from draft picks over the last five years.

Yeah. The mid round. I mean, yeah, it hurts. It hurts when you watch them out here, and it certainly hurts over the course of the season when you have natural things go up and down. The Emerson thing is brutal, because if you're trying to paint a picture of optimism for this team, it's the defense still has a ton of talent, right? We saw this be the best defense in football two years ago, and a lot of those component parts are still here. So if you're trying to build the positive case for the defense with Emerson already removed for the mix, what does it look like to you? That Miles Garrett and Denzel Ward both look absolutely phenomenal out here.

and like which team has a better one-two combo at the top of there, right? Some, you can discuss some, but there's not a bunch clearly better. So can they bring along some of these young guys to free up Miles and to make the plays that are there because Miles is Miles? And then at linebacker, you know, you lost your best linebacker in Jeremiah Wu-Sukormo. That's Andrew Berry's best draft pick, by the way. His second best draft pick, Martin Emerson, you don't have those guys, right? So Greg Newsom in a contract year has to deliver. Cameron Mitchell, who played pretty well as a rookie.

he was in and out of the lineup with some injury stuff. He's now going to get a chance to be the slot corner. I think there's a chance he's okay. We don't know right now. So they're going to pop Newsom outside. That's the plan. Yes, yes. Okay. It just has to be that. Right. And Newsom looks good here. So the second round linebacker, Carson Swessinger, appears off to a good start. Mason Graham appears off to a good start. You know, they were willing to give Malik Collins a 30 years old because they thought they needed that guy. They think he's a fit for the Schwartz defense. So, yeah, Robert, I think it's 95 and 21 are what they are.

You create some turnovers. You cash a couple of them in. And you just dress. bag teams into brawls. And that's why the Judkins' absence looms so large because that was part of your blueprint. What does the defensive line rotation look like just the front four and then the guys behind them as it currently stands right now? So the two clear top defensive tackles are Mason Graham, the first round pick and Malik Collins. Okay. Man, it's just not a lot of beef, man. You're trying to like create havoc with that group. And the guy you're waiting for is Mike called the second rounder last year who's the same thing. He's a past rush guy. He's coming off in knee injury. He's not in camp yet. So you got to develop some guys. I had a seventh rounder last year, Jawan Briggs, who played at the very

of the season and showed like some things like he's he's going to have a chance here they have shelby harris here at the end of his career he's been a good player here the last two years so you need him to be healthy and produce the two young ends mcguire and right or they're interesting guys yeah yeah they're compelling players yeah there's no doubt right i thought last year was really starting to take off and he had an injury missed the rest of the year so is he healthy can he find that strive i mean they're not miles garrett but the thought here whether they say it or not is like miles is going to put you in position to succeed you're going to get some one-on-one third down pass rush opportunities and if you win them, we're all going to benefit from it.

Let's go more existential here as we round this out. What's the plan? What needs to happen here? If this team is bad, do you think that Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry keep their jobs? What's the rationale for why there seems to have been so much confidence in despite the recent results? What do you think Jimmy Haslam is thinking right now about how the next year of Browns football has to unfold? So we only hear from Jimmy Haslam twice a year. And in both times in March at the owner's meetings in just last week, he's made comments that can be fairly and have been construed as these guys are safe.

Well, number one, all this is he supposed to say. So to me, it comes down to this, Robert. Do they win four or five games? Does the rookie class look good? And specifically, does a rookie quarterback play with competence at the end so these games are watchable? Right. And then, in general, is it a year where you have your ups and downs and it comes down to a miss kick or Miles Garrett being a hero or whatever? Or do you have more player arrests?

or people flying banners over the stadium saying sell the team. Like there are levels of ugly here, and it could be like, the early vibe is not good. I think this team is going to be awful. But I said it in March, and I'm going to continue to say it. Like, this is not the 32nd most talented roster. No. No.

You know, like this is a proven defensive coordinator, proven stars on this defense. And guys who should not have been on a three-win team last year. So anything in the passing game, anything in the running game, you know, anything just competent football and steal a win early, you don't know how it's going to go. They were so bad last year. I think it was all-time lowest yards per play

for a team after five games. And they had one win in there, but they just had other chances and they just could never convert them. So you know it's going to be ugly early in the year, and you've got to turn that into making those turnovers and hoping your defensive stars can carry you. I think that makes perfect sense.

We're rowing into this being like, the reason we've kept these guys is we think they're the right people for the long-term health of the franchise. Even though it's been ugly, the quarterback was a huge, huge part of that. Who knows how much of a hand they had in picking that quarterback, So do they get another chance because we think they're the right leadership?

I get that. But if it gets really ugly and embarrassing by the end of the season, things like that change. The problem for me is I think some of the stop gaps to embarrassment where we're going to tap back into Kevin Stefanski, 2021 and 2022 offense. We're going to go downhill. We're going to run the ball with this offensive line. You remove the running back from that equation. That gets harder.

On defense, we still have a lot of talent in the secondary. We feel like I can tap back into what we were in 2023. You remove Martin Emerson from that equation. That, to me, becomes the problem. is that even the best version of this team, we've started to pull out the jangle blocks, and I think the path to embarrassment gets a little bit cleaner based on what has happened

over the last month. They're very thin, and one of the primary reasons is bad drafting. Look at the third and fourth round picks. And that's before you even take into account that they didn't have a first rounder for three years. Yeah, with other teams, it's like, oh, the third and fourth round picks aren't hitting.

That's normal. But when you only have third and fourth round picks, it's really important for those guys to hit. Correct. And you just need guys ready to step in. And, you know, DeWan Jones could be a really good fourth round pick. Jerome Ford has been a really good fifth round pick. You know, if this group has to be ready,

Fannan just turned 21 years old, he just started playing tight-in two years ago. He's got to be ready to play. And he might play wide receiver for this team, you know? Like Dylan Samson, fourth round, like they obviously liked him. They'd already selected one running back. He's got to go in and he's got to make plays. Or they're going to have to find a running back because they're going to have to run the ball between the tackles.

And that's never been Jerome Ford's thing. You can get there if Mason Graham is good, right? If Dylan Samson is good, if Harold Fanon is good, if the quarterback does enough for this team to stay above water, you have two first round picks next year. And that's what you have to hammer home. It's like, and that's why they kept Miles Garrett, by the way, I think outside of the public embarrassment of having to trade him, I think part of the thinking is, even if we got two first round picks for this guy, it turns around quicker the NFL than you think it does. We're better with Miles Garrett over the next two years than we be with those two first round picks. And now

you have another one next year. You can draft the quarterback. And that's the case for optimism here, is that we have enough, well, we can start turning the corner faster than you think we can. I don't know how much I'm buying what they're trying to sell with that, but I think that is the optimistic case they're trying to make for you. That's the case. Now, the reality is next year you might just take all the dead money, push it in, officially release Watson, let some of these guys move on and totally retool for two years from now, right? And then who knows if these guys are the ones handling the retooling, right?

It's just there's so much uncertainty. Right. Like, I think two months from today, we get back from London, that'll be five games in. We'll have a much better feel for where this thing is headed because, you know, like I said, Could they beat the Bengals in week one at home? Absolutely. Could they beat the Packers in week three at home? Absolutely.

Could they go to Baltimore in week two and lose by 50? They could lose by 50 to the Packers at home. It's all on the table here. And that's when you're relying on defense to such an extent, they are the case study and how volatile defense is. You go from what they were in 23 to what they were last year. And that's how the floor falls out is when you go from being the best defense in the league to the 18th best defense in the league.

And where they fall between those two, I think will go a long way in establishing the competence we get from the Browns week to week. Last year when the clock's changed, Rodney McLeod was tied for the team lead and touchdowns with two. He was a backup safety. That's all that needs to be said. All right.

We'll let you get to Kevin Spanskiy's press conference. We're just starting here in a second. Zach Jackson sincerely appreciate the time. Always great to chat with you. We'll do it again very soon. Thanks. Joining us now, it is our Washington Commander's writer, our new Washington Commander's writer here at the athletic.

Nikki John Vaugh. Nikki, great to see you. And welcome. We're so happy to have you. here. Thank you. I'm happy to be back. Really looking forward to this conversation. We could not have it at training camp because we have lives and sometimes things get in the way of that. But I'm happy that we were able to circle back to it. And it actually worked out timing wise because what we've been doing with these shows is that we've been releasing them the following weekend.

And I was at Commander's Camp last Saturday. It's all running together now. And there was part of me that was like, I kind of don't want to do this with Nikki today because there's a chance it's all relevant in the next 24 hours of Terry signs. So the fact that we pushed it back a little bit, I think, has protected us a little. So let's just dive into where the Terry McCorren situation sits with Washington right now. I guess his stance on it. And then I also just wanted to ask you what you know about kind of how it's arrived at this point and what the negotiation points on both sides of this look like.

So we can take that piece by piece. As we're talking on Friday, August 8th, where does everything sit between these two sides? Yeah, it's still had an impasse and has been for months really. You know, both sides made it clear. They wanted to get an extension done pretty early in the offseason. Adam Peter said this at the league meetings. Terry obviously wants to get this done. But they've been pretty far apart for quite some time.

And both sides obviously are going to have to give for anything to get done. but as we inch closer to the regular season, I think the urgency is growing significantly, especially for a receiver, an older receiver, just getting that ramp up time. Obviously, he's familiar with the offense. He's familiar with the quarterback, so he has that to his advantage,

but they need to get a deal done. Now, where both sides are at, you know, one side has talked publicly about their frustrations. Neither side has talked. about specifics and the negotiations are where things stand, typical. But my general understanding is, you know, the sticking point from the team primarily is the H component. Now, Terry McLareness missed only three games in his six-year career.

He's led the team in receiving every year. He is, you know, the perfect ambassador, so to speak, for a team. You know, good guy, great leader, you know, reliable player, very good player. but he's going to turn 30 in September 15th, so week three, which means when a new deal kicks in, he's got one year remaining on his contract. When a new deal kicks in, he'll be 31, which is not ideal for a receiver, especially one that you're trying to assign to a longer-term deal and one that seeks to be paid more in line with the top receivers.

And there's, what, nine receivers now making at least $30 million a year. So he said that he wants to be, you know, he views his value to be in line with that. Now, what that means specifically, he hasn't said. I would imagine there's, you know, his camp is seeking somewhere in the range of the D.K. Metcalf deal, whether that's in the guarantees or the average annual value, which is, what, 33 million a year. They have pretty similar numbers. Both came in at 2019.

but D.K. is also close to two years younger. So that's, you know, I think from the fans in Washington, it seems pretty clear. You've got to resign Terry. He's been everything to the team. From the team side, it's a little bit more nuanced. It's a little bit more complicated because of the age component and what they're trying to do here. They've made it clear they don't want to mortgage their future to one player. And right now they have the luxury of not paying.

you know, big quarterback contract, but in a few years they will have to. So trying to keep all that in mind. Often with these, I feel like we look at it and one side, I think, has a stronger argument than the other. And I do think in this case it is Terry's side for a few different reasons. One, he has been that good soldier for so long in a terrible situation. We were talking about it as kind of the impasse really blew up last week. and Bill Barnwell tweeted out a picture of all the quarterbacks that Terry has played with.

And you look at the list of those guys. And he is still ninth in receiving yards since he came into the league. Like how productive he's been given the situation is remarkable. And he has been like the ideal teammate and ambassador for your organization. But at the same time, he is going to be 30. And so I think when we look at contracts at the position, the ones that have been thrown out that are kind of analogous and the one that I think is kind of problematic for Terry at this stage. just like what Cortland Sutton signed for a couple weeks ago.

And that's Coral and Sutton's same age as Terry McCoran and has not been as productive, but had a really nice season last year. He signs for a deal that's like $23 million a year that that sucks for Terry McCoran's camp. But the one that I feel like is almost a better comparison when you think about how good of a part of the organization you've been with sort of locker room presence. The one that Mike Evans signed a couple years ago is also problematic for Terry McCorn. And that's a deal that even though Mike Evans, I think, was a year older when he signed that contract, it was a two-year $40 million deal.

And so there are a lot of data points on that side that I think hurt Terry's case. But he's been more productive than Cortland Sutton has. And even though he's a little bit older than D.K.Metkaf, the what I've kind of taken from this, and if you're reading between the lines a little bit, the $33 million a year, I don't think he needs. And if you look at the Metcalf deal, the last year of the Maccat deal is $41.5 million, which kind of pumps up that A.A.V. but I think the important point about the MECF contract is it's 60 million guaranteed and it's 60 million guaranteed in those first two years.

So if I'm Terry, I think that's probably the number that matters the most. Even if it's 29 million a year, can you get to that 60 million guaranteed over those first two years? And even though I know you're stretching yourself a little bit to give that sort of contract to a player that's going to be turning 30, I just don't know what Washington's alternative is at this point. Like you look at that receiver room and you look at the timeline that you're currently on. And I just feel like for both locker room harmony and for what you're trying to accomplish this year and next, just bite the bullet. Like you don't have to win this negotiation. You aren't paying that many guys.

So I don't know. This line in the sand that they seem to have drawn in this, it feels a little bit misguided given how well everything went last year. And I'm just curious how much they're willing to back off that to make sure we reach the right resolution for what this team. is and what they're trying to do in 25 and 26. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think Terry, he didn't come into this with that much leverage just because he does have another year left. And I don't see another team trading for him, again, given the age component, but then

you're also asking, you know, another team to give up assets and then pay that kind of contract. I just don't see another team doing that. But I agree with you at this point. and it's become abundantly clear, especially after their joint practice with the Patriots in New England, that they just, they don't have depth. They don't have, because Noah Brown is technically their number two receiver. Debo, I wouldn't put him as a one or two just because he doesn't take on the workload of a one or two.

He is, he is his own category, I feel like. But to have that reliable one or two that can take on those reps and be, that consistent. They don't have either of those guys. With McLoran not on the field, Noah Brown has a lengthy injury history is dealing with one now. He hurt his need during mandatory minicamp,

missed the last four games of the regular season and the playoffs last year with a lacerated kidney. Very good player, but trouble staying on the field. So they don't have the starter caliber players, and they don't have the depth behind them. They have a lot of guys that have been vying

for roster spots and none of them have really, you know, created that separation yet. So it's concerning. I mean, they need receivers. And honestly, they need more than Terry back. But that's a different story. But they need Terry out there. And I just think getting that time on the field now before the season starts is paramount.

They're running out of time. Yeah. I mean, I think talking to people there when I was there and one of my questions was, do you feel like you had to accelerate the timeline a little bit? or did you feel an increased level of urgency based on how last season went? And the initial answer was no, but it's like, well, I saw what you did. Right?

Like I saw the Larry Met Tunsel trade. I saw the Debo trade. There's clearly an urgency to win football games right now. And I understand that. You know, when you have a quarterback that played as well as theirs did last year, you feel like, all right, our time is now. Our window, and this is something that also came up. Our window is as long as Jaden is going to be here.

And so that window is already open. And so making the most of every single season, I think, becomes something that has to be at front of mind. And I think Terry McCorn has to be a part of this if you can in good faith say that you're trying to do that. And I think he has to be a part of this. And again, with some level of harmony, the idea of, well, we hold you. Like, you have to be here.

You're under contract. I just don't know if that's the right approach to this. Even though that's technically correct, it just seems like you're riding high on such incredible vibes from last year and sullying the waters over something like this when you do have the money. I just don't know how much I support that. I feel like it's just a little bit misguided as you consider all of the different factors at play here. Right. Yeah. And I think you got to give your quarterback his go-to receiver. But I agree with you. No, I will say, I don't think, I think contracts, contracts or they're paid for your potential production. I

don't think they're achievement awards. That said, with Terry, Terry's case is a little bit more nuanced just because of what he has gone through. Now, does that mean this current regime is responsible for what happened previously under the previous owner? I would say no, but at the same time, the context matters. You know what you signed up for and taking on this team. And I think what Terry's done with it, he's been a face of the team.

He was the face of the team. for the longest time. He was the not just player coach. Like he was the voice of the team when all this stuff was happening, when there were federal investigations, NFL-led investigations, when the DEA was raiding the facility. Like he was the guy that was taking questions for media

because we know he'll stand up and give a good answer and not back away from it when the owner never really said anything at the time. So that's what he's been through now. Does he deserve a, you know, a contract in line with the top receivers because he did that? No, but I do think that, you know, that needs to be taken into context. And I agree with you. Like, if you're not going to pay somebody like Terry, it does send a message of, okay, who are you going to pay then? You know, he's, he is a player that has done everything right.

Yes, age matters. There's plenty of data to show that, you know, 30 plus year old. receivers, there's a decline, there's, you know, increase in injuries. That is a concern. But I do agree with you that if you're going all in, which was made very clear, not just with Laramette Tunsell, back when they traded for Marshawn Lavonor, the trading deadline, you don't do that if you're in a slow rebuild, you know. But if you're all in, go all in. You've got time before you got to pay, Jaden. Yeah, I just think, and also the downside case to me is overstated. Like, if all of those guarantees are going to be in 2016.

and 27 and his age 31 and age 32 season. I don't know. I understand there's risk there. I think there's probably an overstated amount of risk there. And in the way that they're approaching the receiver position and the way that they approach this off season and just talking about the construction of the offense overall, if we can pivot to that, you know, I think part of the rationale as it was communicated to me is, well, you look around the league and you see what teams have done around

some of the best quarterbacks in football, the bills being a really good example of this. If we feel like we have one of the guys, the prime. priority should be let's put the right pieces in front of him. And if we have that established, if we feel like the protection and what's going on up front is good, we can figure it out with the past catching group. That seems to be what they've done with the tonsill acquisition going out and getting Josh Connerly. The presumption in that equation, though, is that Jaden Daniels is already one of those guys.

And the fact that Washington is kind of already operating that way, I think, says a lot about what their expectations for him are and what their expectations for this offense and this season are. Oh, 100%. I mean, they're all in. I mean, they do not view this as a slow rebuild. I think they did when this regime first came in, when Adam Peters first got a look at the roster and started, you know, tearing everything down and rebuilding the staff entirely.

I think they did view it as a slow rebuild. But I think by week three, when, you know, know, in Cincinnati. I think that was a clear indicator that they might have to, you know, fast track this a little bit more. And they've shown it throughout, too, like, you know, the trades, the guys they've signed. I think the fact that they've surrounded him with a number of veterans, too. I mean, most of these guys are, a lot of these guys are older players on one or two year deals, giving them some flexibility for the future, but also surrounding him with, you know, veteran savvy, I guess.

Guys like Bobby Wagner, Zach Ertz, they bring in Vaughn Miller. So they're all in. This is not a slow rebuild. If they feel like if they went 12 and 5 and made it to the NSC championship game, they can tweak the roster a bit and go a bit further.

I think this offensive line group can be a defined strength of this team depending on how certain things go. Brandon Coleman moving inside to guard, his play strength and just what he's bringing into that position, I think makes a lot of sense. And I think in their minds, playing Laramie Tonsol next to him should only increase or accelerate whatever that development looks like.

So that offensive line now where you have Aligretti and Andrew Wiley becoming depth pieces instead of starters, that can be a driving force of what this team in offense looks like. To me, the big question remaining there is how quickly do they get Sam Cosmi back and what does he look like when he's playing? So based on the conversations you've had, what sort of timeline do we have on Sam Cosmy who was playing at like a Pro Bowl definitive level last season at right guard when do we think we might see him as part of this they've said they haven't ruled out the season opener for him my guess is he'll start the season on i are do four games let's see how he is you know bring him back to

practice see where he's at you know maybe week five or six give him that ramp up period um we he's been working out on the field next of the team um he visibly does not not have the same leg strength in the injured leg, where he tore his ACL, that he does in the other. And he's been working to get that back. And I think until he does, like, that's, that'll be a clear indicator of how soon he'll be back on the field. But my guess at this point is start, you know, he'll be on the initial 53, then they place him on IR so he can do the short-term thing.

So that, that's a huge piece of it. I mean, because they, Nick Allegretti is a. a good player, a good teammate, but he's not the caliber that Sam Cosby is. And I feel like they got the left side of the line pretty good. I think Branden-Holman is actually one of the more underrated players on this roster. I think he's really, really good. And it'll be even better at guard. But the right side without Cosmi could be a concern.

You hope you get Cosby back in the first month of the season, and then you hope Terry gets there. And then the rest of the pieces kind of fall together in a way that makes sense to me. Like the Debo part of this, I think there are a lot of teams for whom Debo Samuel would be a risky addition in a few different ways. Obviously, there's an injury history there. There's an inconsistency of play there. But also, you have to have the right rule for Debo Samuel within your offense. Well, with this offense, it's incredibly easy to picture.

Like, it's the way that they play is the way they would use a player like Debo. So most of the past catching spots, I can understand how it's all supposed to come together. The room on that offense that feels a little bit unsettled is the room. running back room based on my understanding. And so let's have the Jacori-Crossky-Mirate conversation. How quickly do we feel like... Let's go, let's talk about Bill here. How quickly do we think Bill can be a part of this running back rotation?

Because if you're talking to the fantasy people out there, this is supposed to be a good offense and good offense with unsettled backfields are an area for opportunity. And by all accounts, it really does seem like he's somebody who's going to be in the mix for this team. Do you think that's fair? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. He's had a really good camp.

I think they view him as a seal in the draft. He's an older rookie, 24, longer college career. And then this last year didn't play really at all. I think it was one game, right? And then there were the NCAA eligibility issues. But he's a quality player. Like, he's a powerful back. He's built more like a linebacker,

but he has the vision he can cut. It's he's fun to watch. So he's getting a spot on this roster. Now how quickly they move him into the rotation, I think we'll be a little bit dependent on him and how quickly they get him up to speed, you know, how much he adjust to, you know, the NFL tempo. But I, he's looked really good in camp.

That's the player I'm looking to watch. I'm excited to watch the most in the first preseason game. just to see how he handles, you know, going against another team, going, you know, just dealing with the NFL speed. Because I think he has a real shot to be a good player. What's interesting about this room, too, is it's Bill. He goes by Bill. And all veterans who are either signed a one-year deals or in the last year of their deals. So everybody is hungry for a spot and out to brew something.

So it's been interesting. That's a one competition that has really been interesting this year, just to see how that group shakes out. It was the first position that was mentioned when I asked one of the offensive coaches about kind of what they're looking at with, is there anything that's kind of unsettled? You know, is there a group where the rotation is interesting to you, where you really keep an eye on it,

that running back was the first thing. So this is not just you guys on the ground being like, oh, he's flashed. I think that this is something in front of mind for the staff as they think about what that group is going to be and how they're going to deploy it. The offense, I think, has a chance to take a small step back just because there was some volatility things last year,

the fourth down efficiency, some of the deep ball stuff, just the nature of the NFL and how this stuff tends to work. But I mostly consider them like a top 10ish offense if they stay healthy because of the quarterback and because of the quality of the line, etc. I think this is going to be the ceiling for this team is going to be determined by what the defense looks like. And they go out this offseason, they add a couple corners, you know, talking to people there, I think,

especially where the world Dan Quinn comes from. I think they're very happy that they can play a lot more man coverage in training camp this year than they could last year. So the corner room is improved. There's a little bit of stability back there.

The front, I think, is going to be the biggest question about where this team goes and what the ceiling ends up looking like. They add some pieces, Dietrich Wise, Javon Kinlaw, Von Miller, but not that kind of ace past rusher. I think some people were hoping they would add coming into this season.

What do you think, is there a player up front that you think can emerge as like the most important part of that group? And what sort of ceiling do you think we're talking about here with this defense overall? I think the player that could emerge is the most important players, Duran Payne. He did not have a good season last year. He's had a good offseason, good camp. He looks rejuvenated in a sense. You know, he did say he was dealing with some nagging injuries late last season,

what player isn't at that point. And I do wonder if there's, There's been, you know, with Jonathan Allen going to Minnesota, I think, you know, the spotlight is more on Duran now. And I think there's some freedom that. He's played with Jonathan Allen, you know, from college on up at Alabama. So the spotlight's more on him. And he seems to play with a little bit more freedom. And I mean, he's a really good defensive tag.

He is one of the fastest get-ups I've seen for a guy that size. It doesn't make sense to me. physics-wise. So I think he's a guy that has a chance to have a really good bounce-back season. And honestly, he needs it. He's getting paid significantly. So to have that down year was,

he took some heat. And, you know, with the guys, they put around him too. I mean, like you said, they beefed up the line. Obviously, with, you know, the focus on stopping the run. Being in the NFC East,

that's pretty important. Given what failure, So, yeah, so I think that group could be pretty good against a run. It's a pass rush I'm a little uncertain of. Von Miller looks like Von Miller, as he's always been when he's healthy. And that's that will always be the key for him at this stage in his career, just dealing with so many, you know, season-ending injuries over the years. But he still has that bend.

He still has that get-off. He can still do things, you know, in pass-rushing that no other player can. to me the actual the wild card on this defense is actually marshall and laddimore um he had a he had a tough season last year just because he was dealing with a hamstring injury gets traded midway never fully acclimated to the new team the new system um and then got you know called for PI like five times um so not a deal um if He's healthy now. If he can look anything like he did or something close to it, you know, a few years ago,

I think they've really good chance. If he struggles, I think they're going to get gashed. I think Trey almost is good, especially for a rookie, but I think generally he looks good. Sound technique, a smart player. But I think that other side is going to be critical if Marshaun can be anywhere near the level he was a few years ago. The bets they've made need to hit. the expensive bets they've made need to hit. I mean, it's just that simple.

And he's one of those expensive bets. When you think about draft capital and what he's making, he is one of the highest capits in the league among all corners this year. And so that's where they've put a lot of their chips. And if that group, if he can play well, and then you have Trey Amos and some combination of Tramos and Jonathan Jones. And I think that's one of the underrated parts of this team. Again, and talking about how they assemble.

I think it'll probably be Mikey Sainter still. In the nickel. Yeah, in the nickel. Yeah. Yeah. So, but Jonathan Jones is like, there's depth. That's one of the underrated parts. of this team, I think, is that they've really been able to build out some of their depth at some of

these key positions. And that's what they'll tell you is that, you know, sometimes these rookie quarterback contracts are wielded for high profile players. And they obviously did some of that. But the middle ground guys they've been able to sign, like Aligretti, Wiley, Jonathan Jones, Dietrich Wise, some of these guys that are building out the depth of this roster, they've really prioritized that. I think it's a good thing to bring up. Like, they're not as fragile in some of these spots as some other teams are. And so they've used those mid-tier veteran contracts we don't see a lot of anymore to help build up that depth.

And it's a good argument. So even if they had an injury at the outside corner spot, Jonathan Jones is a totally reasonable player to have to plug in there. So that cornerback group with Mikey going back to the nickel, I think, has a real chance to be his strength. And the argument they're going to give you for the guys up front is, okay, maybe we don't have that high-end ace pass rusher. But we have a ton of bodies and a ton of depth that we can deploy situationally.

If we can use Dietrich Wise on early downs and we feel like we can stop the run and get into defined passing situations, that's when we can trot out a group that has Von Miller, Dorrance, Armstrong, Johnny Newton, Durant Payne, and we can get after the quarterback. It's a good theory. Like I understand the argument for it. I understand what they're trying to say. I think at the end of the day when you're trying to win Super Bowls, having that guy the other team is terrified of on third and seven helps a little bit.

But I at least understand the vision and the best. bill of goods they're trying to sell you at this point about what the defense is supposed to look like. The one data point that I will give in their defense is this franchise had four first round picks on their defensive line. Couldn't do much of anything with it. It was too many alpha males, I guess, up front. So I guess, you know, maybe they're thinking, all right, if we have, you know, a couple

sound guys, guys that, you know, stay in their lane and, you know, make this whole thing work. it'll come together, but yeah, we'll see. It is a very different conversation about the Washington commanders on August 8th of 2025 than it was on August 8th of 2024. We got contract disputes about star receivers that have become incredibly important because this team is trying to win championships. Like we're talking about nitpicking areas of the roster and like what they'll do in the playoffs. So just the type of discussion and the type of framing, I probably would not have anticipated a year ago. but this is where we are. Nikki, sincerely appreciate the time. Very good to chat with you. We will do it again very soon. Of course. Thanks for having me.

All right. That's all we got today. Thank you so much to Joe Person. Thank you so much to Zach Jackson. And thank you to Nikki Javall. Great to talk with all three of them. I'm still rolling on the road. I'm in Cincinnati right now. I'll be at Bengals training camp on Saturday, August 9th. And then I'll be visiting with a Colts on the 11th. We have the Bears and Packers next week, along with a and Niners joint practice. So we'll be talking with B-Wriders from like four or five different teams again next week. And we'll have a few of these coming your way next weekend. After that, things will have slowed down, but got a lot of fun stuff still on tap, a lot of camps, a lot of teams to still visit. I've been enjoying it. I hope you guys have been as well.

For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon.