The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Vikings, (former) Rams, Patriots and Broncos beat writers

Episode Date: August 23, 2025

We've made it. Training camp is over. The season is just about here. And we've got one final Beat Writer Notebook for you to close it all down. On this episode, Robert Mays talks with Alec Lewis, Chad Graff and Nick Kosmider, The Athletic's Vikings, Patriots and Broncos beat writers, respectively, as well as national NFL reporter Jourdan Rodrigue, who remains very plugged in with the Rams.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)3:47 Robert Mays and Chad Graff from Vikings camp37:56 Robert Mays and Jourdan Rodrigue from Rams camp1:09:36 Robert Mays and Chad Graff from Patriots camp1:32:31 Robert Mays and Nick Kosmider from Broncos campHost: Robert MaysWith: Alec Lewis, Jourdan Rodrigue, Chad Graff, Nick KosmiderExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Alec on Bluesky: @aleclewis.bsky.socialFollow Jourdan on Bluesky: @jourdanrodrigue.bsky.socialFollow Chad on Bluesky: @chadgraff.bksy.socialFollow Nick on Bluesky: @nickkosmider.bksy.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Alec on X: @alec_lewisFollow Jourdan on X: @JourdanRodrigueFollow Chad on X: @ChadGraffFollow Nick on X: @NickKosmiderTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It is our last beat writer notebook of the summer. We hit almost all of our beatwriters in doing this. I think the only team we missed was the Giants. And I apologize to Dan Duggan and Charlotte Carroll. We've had Dan on a bunch to talk about the Giants in the last couple years, though. And I have a creeping feeling that we might be doing that again, depending on how the

giant season goes, either good or bad. I think I'm going to be interested in the Giants. Today, though, our last four beat writer conversations. First off, I went to Minneapolis. It was my last actual training camp stop this year. The chat with our writer Alec Lewis there. Obviously, the Vikings are in a fascinating position. We have a roster that's ready to win the Super Bowl,

a quarterback we've never seen before. And that is a combination you just don't typically get. After that, revisited the Rams with our old Rams writer at the athletic and now one of our national writers here, Jordan Rodriguez, who still obviously has a complete line into that team. Really enjoyed kind of revisiting what the Rams look like right now. The Matthew Stafford conversation obviously is at front of mind for everybody. So we got some context on that and a lot of other pieces about what the Rams might look

like this year. And then two camps I did not get to, but two teams I wanted to talk about. We chatted the Patriots with Chad Graf and year one of the Mike Vrable era. And then also dove into the Broncos with our Broncos writer, Nick Cosmiter. This Denver team is in a place where I'm talking about like what the third receiver is going to be and if the offensive line depth is good enough the types of ways we talk about contending teams and that's kind of where the Broncos are trending toward right now so enjoy the discussions with all four of them let's get to it right now joining us now from the

Vikings facility our last stop in-person stop on the training camp tour and is our Vikings be right here at the athletic al-clus how you do man last stop last stop how many did you do it's 23 I should probably have a tally. I just have been too locked in watching Jay Jim McCarthy every single day and this front seven, which we'll probably talk about. Good to see you. Good to see you as well. I'm excited. We're going to dinner tonight.

I'm looking forward to it. I love Minneapolis. I love the Twin Cities. I went to see Nana Schneles last night and I'm having a wonderful dinner tonight. And so I can't imagine a better two night stretch than the one I'm about to spend here. The hard thing is like when I text you and heard that you were coming, the question was like,

where are you going to eat? Because there are so many possibilities and we've I mean last year we went to a WOMNI place was ridiculously good I haven't been back there but I've got I mean my list is still long for where I want to try so you're you're on it you know your food obviously and most underrated food city in America yeah you the people here love me for that and they should most underrated food city in America I come here probably twice a year still have not been able to chip away at the list and so happy to be we're going to like an Argentinian place tonight like steak forward excited about that haven't eaten all day feeling a little bit delirious and I'm going to enjoy the benefits of that later.

This place has like a potato. We'll talk Vikings probably, but this place has a like potatoes that I'm going to describe you would be able to describe it. I don't tell me too much. Okay. Okay. Okay. I don't tell me.

I know. We'll just get the potatoes and then I'll be able to be able to. I'm telling you when you try these potatoes, you're going to nod and I'm going to know. I'm going to work out this afternoon and having not eaten and I'm going to be like almost on the verge of death and it's going to be worth it when we get to the restaurant. As expected. Is a quarterback? going to be good.

Here's a question I'd ask in response. And before I even answer that, first of all, how good does he have to be for this team to be good? Let me rephrase my question. Is the quarterback going to be good enough based on how good they ask him to be for this to be a worthwhile, relevant competitive team like at the higher end of the NFC? Yeah, I think so. My evaluation of JJ, this entire camp, has been pretty, definitive and clear cut.

There have been some ups. There have been some downs, not crazy highs, not crazy lows. And you know this as well as I do, that the infrastructure they've had here with the coaching staff and the weapons around him means that if you are it's somewhere in the middle there with this talented of a roster, it's probably going to go pretty well because of how sharp the play caller is and the players that he has to throw to. I mean, you know this. But with the revamped interior of the offensive line, that group starting to come together.

The run game, they hope is improved. It's going to have to be with Jordan Mason and Aaron Jones as kind of the tandem. And then Jordan Addison, he's suspended for the first three games. But I'm not sure there's been a more impressive player in Vikings training camp than Jordan Addison thus far. I think as long as J.J. McCarthy can be accurate, can process the field, isn't trying to do too much. on what Kevin O'Connell would call the weighty downs. It should be pretty solid against the schedule that is tough. Where's Christian Derisaw at at this point?

Just timeline on that before we get into. I want to know what the answer on that is before I started talking about the quality of the infrastructure. Yeah. Christian Derisaw has partaken in team drills and they haven't really put a destination on it. But I have started to feel like he is progressing where week one might be a possibility. Okay. So let's just say Christian Derrissau is healthy in the first couple weeks of the season. You know what Brian O'Neill is. You spent a ton of money and resources on the interior of the offensive line. This is one of the best past catching groups in the NFL when Addison gets back.

Part of the reason that I was in favor of them not spending on a veteran quarterback this offseason and rolling with J.J. McCarthy is that at a certain point, you have to believe in the infrastructure that you've created. The infrastructure is better now than it was last year when Sam Darnold threw 35 touchdown passes. And so I think that is, to me, the optimistic way to spin this is that we already felt good about the scenario, the Minnesota Vikings with Kevin O'Connell, we're going to put a young quarterback. Now, by going out and spending on the offensive line, by going out and getting Jordan Mason, by doubling down on beefing up your run game, now there's a world where hopefully, over the course of any given game, you're asking the quarterback to make like seven or eight real plays. Exactly. And can the ratio of those plays be, can he go five for seven with one of the best defenses in the league? I get it.

I get the formula. What that means on a January in Philadelphia, like on a January Saturday in Philadelphia in the playoffs, that I think you might bump up against your ceiling. But being competitive every single week, being a playoff team, I think that totally tracks to me. Yeah. I mean, they went into this past off season wanting to build a team that could be more, I don't know, of the versatile than they've been. Flexible.

And that's why the investment in the interior offensive line was, I mean, if you'd asked me before free agency, how many of those spots are they going to fill? I would have said probably two at best. They ended up doing all three. Ryan Kelly at Center, can he stay healthy? A very valid question that we'll evaluate throughout the year.

Right guard, Wilfries coming off of a leg fracture is not nothing. So how healthy and how prepared is he? It's a question. And then at left guard, Donovan Jackson is a rookie, kind of a high-floorish player from Ohio State. We'll see about the ceiling. But if those guys can't say healthy and progress, I mean, that's the investment they made there. Defensively, you know what this defense has been for two years with Harrison Phillips and Jonathan Bullard as your top interior defenders. Now you have a healthy Jonathan Allen and a healthy Jvon Hargrave wreaking havoc with a

defensive, you know, a secondary that is younger and more athletic and probably can sprinkle in some more man coverage. So the bones are there. It's why the way you started that previous comment is the reason that they went this route with J.J. McCarthy, not only were they invested in him with the number 10 pick in last year's draft, but also they really value what you can do with that contract in terms of, you know, paying and providing resources everywhere else. And they've needed the signings and free agency to be as much of a boon as it's been with some of the early draft that they've had in this 10 year. But I feel like, I mean, you're here.

This roster is pretty formidable on paper. It just is. Yeah. I mean, you have the missing draft, like the entire missing draft. And also, they haven't had picks over the last couple years. They've traded away all the picks. So they've needed to supplement that with free agency. And to their credit, they've done it well.

For the most part, their free agency batting average over the last three, four, five years. just think about the guys who are now multi-year pieces of this team. Blake Cashman, Byron Murphy, Andrew Van Ginkle. They've done a very good job of picking the right guys from the veteran pool for where they've wanted to go. Absolutely. And they're going to need to. I mean, Jonathan Gernard is another one.

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot about Jonathan Grenfrey. He's by the best one. No, Jonathan, and he's another guy throughout this training camp where like last week joint practices, the Patriots were here. And you got Will Campbell on the left side blocking Jonathan Gernard. and it was just not a fair fight. But it's not going to be a fair fight for a lot of tackles,

no matter the level experience. And yeah, I mean, and you give the Vikings front office really credit for, I mean, they could have settled for, you know, we have an idea of what this quarterback's going to be. They've kind of taken the route of boldness. And they did it with J.J. McCarthy had a time where Quasido Feminson and Kevin O'Connell were not extended. And so that was, I mean, it was in many ways a dice roll.

It went really well. throughout the regular season last year. But now they've hit this point. And I've said this plenty of times and written it. They've been here three years. This regime was hired in 2022. They have not won a playoff game. And so you start to get to the point in the juncture at which like the rubber

meets the road. You can win 13 games and it can be incredibly impressive with the roster that you have. But at some point, you know this as I do. Like this is a results bottom line thing and they have not want to playoff game. And now it is incumbent upon them to compete in a very, very tough NFC North and NFC and try to push to do what they haven't done. If they don't want to playoff game this year, I don't think that's some sort of letdown. In my mind, this was always a two-year process.

And I think that was one of the reasons that not going the veteran quarterback route, like if you're weighing, the upside and the downside of bringing against Aaron Rogers to the situation, the upside in 2025, even with the diminished version of Aaron Rogers, I will hear an argument that it's higher. but the downside for 2026 is so much lower because if you don't pull it off now you're going into a third year never having seen what this quarterback is what he's good at never giving him the chance to develop so i think that to me is always what i had the end of the road what they're building toward is what this team is next year not what this team is this year i'm sure viking's fans

wouldn't love to hear that but i think if you're being realistic that was always the timeline that made the most sense. Well, that's what it's interesting. And I've asked a lot of fans and people here that I come across with of like, what is realistic expectation in your mind this year as a fan? And you hear a lot of them like they want to win a playoff game. I mean, for me, my lens is if you come out of 2025, 26 this year, knowing what you have in the quarterback position and feeling confident and good about that, like regardless of how

it ends, unless it's just an abject disaster everywhere else, you probably come way feeling pretty good about the direction of this team with the leadership, with the continuity of those in charge. And so it will be really interesting to see how it, how it does play out. But I'm with, I mean, as far as the Aaron Riders conversation, like, I get the, I get the perspective from people who like, you know, they want it right now. They want the, it's a short-term view. We got to win right now. It's hard not to think that way. When you were, when you won 14 games, It's hard to be like, if we win 10, it can be a good season. That's a hard thing to do as a fan and as an organization.

Absolutely. And it's also a hard thing to do when this team has never won a Super Bowl ever. Like, it's an understandable mindset and approach. But, I mean, you get like they eventually after going through the Sam Darnold hits free agency, signs with Seattle, you know, Daniel Jones, who they wanted to be the backup to J.J. McCarthy. Daniel Jones signs in Indianapolis for the opportunity that was there. And that's when the Aaron Rogers conversation and all of the hoopla surface and had this team not believed in their ability to get J.J. McCarthy to the place at which he could give this team a shot and develop into the future. Had they not believing that, they wouldn't be on this path.

They obviously are on this path. And I mean, again, like as I sit here every day and watch training camp and I see the front seven do things that this front. 7 can do that they have not been able to do with Brian Flores and they've still had the defense they've had like it's pretty intriguing and it's it's it's encouraging probably to see what's possible I view this team the scaffolding of this team early in the year has to be the run game and it has to be the front seven and if those elements of this team can be as good as they have to be then I mean we'll see how far they can take it and I think the run game wrinkles and just the cascading effect that having a really good offensive line potentially gives you you don't need

a good run game to be a good play action team or a heavy play action team this the Vikings are an example for the last couple years it helps right like it gives credence to the entire operation and I think being able to fold in more screens play action screens I just think that there's a it's easier to have like solid diversification across the board when your offensive line is good there isn't just one single benefit and I think if they can realize all of those benefits and you insulate the quarterback even more than the one recent ones have been that's where they're this can all sort of come together. The running backs, I'm just curious, because that's really the only personnel question,

other than the quarterback I have. Do you have any sense of how the workload is going to be split up between Aaron Jones and Jordan Mason and what the differences are in terms of how they'll be deployed? Yeah, I mean, the classic question is like percentage usage. Like Aaron Jones probably to me, it's like 6040. That's the way I would lean. Aaron Jones will be used in the passing game the way he was last year and probably even further like they love him in the screen game which i'm glad you mentioned because it's been something

through camp we've seen really it just looks better it looks crisper it looks cleaner and with a young quarterback that's probably going to get heated up probably smart to have a pretty good screen game how many buckets do you have within your offense that takes the play off of the quarterback the screen is one of those buckets absolutely you can continue going back to but i think jordan mason back to the running back conversation short yardage the ability like Like, people always think of him for some reason as he needs a gigantic body. You see that out there in practice. But his secret sauce to me is his vision and the ability to find holes that most guys

probably wouldn't be able to find. That's why I think as an undrafted player, he's been able to make it work is because he just has a special decision-making ability at the point of having to make the decision behind the line of scrimmage. So I expect him in short yardage. I expect them to, you know, try to take the workload off of Aaron Jones to keep him healthy for the duration of the year. You mentioned personnel questions.

The only one I'd have right now is the depth at receiver. Justin Jefferson, it feels like he's working his way back from this hamstring and he'll be ready by week one. Jordan Addison will be suspended. Jalen Naylor had a bit of a hand injury on Thursday joint practices. And where that stands is a little bit murky. So, you know, is there a free agent that they can go find? it's kind of, that's some of the conversation from the very nitty-gritty beatwriter stuff.

That's where we are, though. I mean, that's where we are in the back half of August. And that's what the front office is thinking about, too. It's like, how do we make sure we're fortifying depth at some of these positions? I think that makes total sense. Last J.J. McCarthy nugget that I thought was interesting in talking to people here today, is that with young quarterbacks, makeup is such a huge part of it. And with one of the reasons I think they were as comfortable committing to J.J. as they were,

both in the draft and then this year and moving forward. is just what he is wired like. And some of this could be cliche bullshit. But when they broke in May and then he came back for training camp, the grasp he had of certain ideas, certain concepts, certain things within the offense, splitting out play calls, protections, some of the mental stuff, he was better coming back from that break than he was when he left in May. And that to them was just such clear evidence that he spent the break working on all

of this stuff. And so that, I think, has been encouraging. for some people here knowing that if this doesn't work out, it's just because he wasn't good enough. It's not because he's not made of the right stuff. And that's just one more area where you can sleep a little bit easier if you're the decision makers in this building. Yeah, talking to people, like, it feels, it sounds like he's just relentless, where it's just like nonstop wanting more. And you go back in his background. I mean, he went for a year during COVID and played at IMG. And apparently, like, talking to some of the coaches at IMG that year, they had to like keep their computer.

open at 9 o'clock at night so he could come in and watch more. It's the classic, again, like you hear a lot of this stuff, but I do think his hunger to be as good as he can be is very evident on a day-to-day basis. The questions are going to be around, like the arm strength is not at all a question. It is like the arm talent, the layering off platform. Can you be accurate? Like, and then decision making once you're out of the pocket, can you throw the ball away? Can you run out of, like, can you not try to force it on?

a down where you don't have to try to force and make a throw. If those elements of his game, the processing speed through progressions, like, if those go right, I mean, people here are going to be as excited as they have wanted to be for a long time. Yeah, the decision making is a big part of it and talking to that that came up in conversation today where it's like, if it's not there, as he will and just consistently check the ball down because we have the sort of offense now. We can be consistent enough that we don't need to worry about making it all back in one

chunk. Last year, when you're in second and 10 a lot, that mindset can start to creep in. I think the hope is they can shut that mindset off because of how down-to-down consistent the offense can be. And last year was Sam Darnold. I mean, that was a major point of coaching and teaching for him. Like there was the middle season stretch. Remember the game at home against the Indianapolis Colts. He boots out to the left side, Sam Darnold, and just like forces it in the red zone where if you just throw it away, it's three points. And knowing that, that they have, the defense that they have, that forces the amount of turnover. They will live with that oftentimes and did last year and they will this year.

So that's like in training camp, those have been the instances where J.J. McCarthy has kind of gotten in trouble where it's, you know, it is a second and 10. And he boots out of the pocket and he's trying to make a play. And it's like just live to live to see another day. And you hear that from all from coaches everywhere. But Kevin O'Connell is very big on if you just kind of play the offense and play the play the way we want you to play it. it's going to probably work out more than more times than not. And you're also not asking a ton of your quarterback when you have one of the best defenses in the league.

And I think that has to be part of the equation here for the Vikings to be the team that their fans want them to be. Is this once again, has to be one of the best defenses in football. The way that they built this thing this offseason was so notable to me and that you had really like four starting-ish spots up for grabs, right? You had two outside cornerback spots and two interior defensive line spots. safety, even though they're replacing

Cambynum, Theo Jackson was kind of always going to step into that role. And so those four starters, I think, that's where they needed to seek out new pieces. The idea that they went super expensive on the two defensive tackles and super cheap on the two corners, in their

minds, it's, we'll always go front first because we think the front can paper over what we have on the back end. I think ultimately, what will happen to this defense is it will come down to whether or not that was the correct bet. It's a great, I'm glad you said it that way, and I'm not sure if I, but that's, that is the bet they're making. Absolutely. And I, I mean, Javon Hargrave, I mean, he, there was a brutal injury last year. I think it was like it was a season ending arm injury. But in training camp, he too has looked just, just nothing like we've seen here on the interior since I started covering the team. It's just the situation. A little more pop than Jerry Tiller. Exactly. Jonathan Allen, too. Like, you. I've had probably eight different people talk to me about Jonathan Allen's chop hump move,

which I have no idea what that is. And I probably as an athletic reporter, I need to go figure that out. But it's even the depth behind those two. Jalen Redmond, this, you know, the guy they found from the U.F.L has really come on to where they feel incredibly good about that group. And so it is with the secondary. Isaiah Rogers was a guy who Brian Flores and this defensive staff coveted. He was the first signing they made when the free agency period opened. And Isaiah Rogers was drafted late by the Indianapolis Colts.

He played a couple seasons, was suspended for a year for a gambling situation. And then last year was a depth option for the Philadelphia Eagles. He's an undersized guy, competitive at the catch point, kind of like fiery the way that Brian Flores would want. And then Jeff Okuda, who, I mean, you know, he's been around for a while. but Brian Flores has said this to me privately. He's like, look, we just want him to put his hands on guys and be as physical and use the skill set that he has. So you're smart to broach it that way. Like if the front can cause enough havoc to where those guys don't have to cover for four seconds frequently, then it probably works out.

My question is like, how much more inventory defensively is there going to be? Like what more, you know, strategically can they possibly tap into? Is it watching other teams around the league and seeing like the Arizona Cardinals and some stuff? Like where do they go from here? That's kind of a curiosity for my nerdy angle. One of the first questions I asked today. Not one of the first, but one of the questions I asked in talking to, you know, a member of the defensive staff that was like, where do you guys seek out ideas? Right?

Because like so few teams are like you. like how do you figure out where you what you want to tap into and i think it's just there's a kernel of an idea that's like a concept or a part of one other point it's like can we play this technique this way think a lot of it comes from this staff and from just random shit they throw against the wall and a lot of it seems to stick the thing i would come to in terms of the next evolution of this is when you get into a game against when it's game plan specific right when you're playing against the Rams in the playoffs, when they have multiple plays in those first couple drives

where they can block it up with six and then thinking about two specific plays, I think both might have been Pooka Nakuwa, but he's running a vertical route from the number two spot, pushing up to the depths on the safety, and then running a deep curl that's wide open because they're playing quarters behind some of those coverages. There's air in these coverages.

There just is. Even if it's really good football and even if it's hard to deal with, there are weaknesses. And this was one of the best man coverage teams in the NFL last season. When you look at the numbers, those numbers, I think, are misleading because they don't play a lot of it. So you're going into games where teams aren't game planning for you playing man. They were able to jump on the Packers this way. I'm glad.

So you're right. You're all over it. So I think now if you play a little bit more of it and it's not just a change up, can you actually live in that world a little bit more seamlessly than they've been able to in years past? I'm glad you mentioned that Packers game. It was week 17. They had to win it for the week 18 game against the Lions to win the NFC North. So they had to throw something. And they threw man coverage at Matt LaFleur in a way where after the game, he's like,

we did not think that they could do that. And I'll never forget in the locker room after Harrison Smith and Stefan Gilmore were going through it. I mean, it was like, Stefan was sitting in a chair of like, I don't know how I'm going to come back. And that was, again, the week before the Lions game, that was what it was. But that is what I expect is can they get pressure, not sending six as much as they have? And then can they use man coverage, spend the dial to man coverage more than they have? And that combined with everything else that they still have at their disposal because of the continuity and the smarts of the players on the defense. Like that's, to me, that's some of the secret sauce of what they've been able to do.

the bandwidth of Harrison Smith, Josh Mattelis, even Theo Jackson now. Like those guys are sharp enough to have recall to where if flow wants to change on a split like between drives at halftime, they have the wherewithal to be able to do it. You've continuity now. Yeah. You've been in the same system now for three years. Now you can start to riff on ideas within the system. No question.

But I mean, it really, I do feel like this defense is just going to have to be the cornerstone of this team in a way that it probably has been. But like, you know, with Kevin O'Connell as a head coach, you often think of airing it out and 4,000 yards passing a year and Justin Jefferson as the superstar. But this defense and the fear that it invokes for opposing coordinators, offensive lines, quarterbacks on a weekly basis, like it gives you such, I don't know, just space to probably develop and work through things offensively the way that.

that they're going to have to this year. We know Jonathan Allen and Devine Hargrave are being added to this thing. You make an argument that Dallas Turner is also like a 2025 addition because they were good enough on the edge last year and good enough on defense. I think he was coming along slowly enough

that they didn't really throw him into the mix in any sort of aggressive way. This year it feels like, I was going to say he's probably going to be more part of the plan. He should be, right? Based on what they gave up to get him, he better be. But now you're adding like a potential dynamic

talent to that front along with the two interior players that you signed. So it's not just those two guys who could supercharge this thing. It's Dallas Turner. Andrew Van Ginkle is a good player, but you want to kick Andrew Van Ginkle off the field on third down and have Hargrave Jonathan Allen and Jonathan Grinard. That seems like maybe more of a high octane upside for this group overall. I mean, we've also seen in training camp where all three those guys are on the field and Dallas is off the ball and then Van Ginkle's off the ball. And do you identify one guy as off the ball or on the ball? And that's where, I mean, the head starts spinning and I'm not, I don't have the horsepower to follow through. But Dallas Turner, I mean, it is part of the evaluation of the front off.

I mean, they paid a lot to the Jacksonville Jaguars to go up and draft Dallas Turner. And so last year, he played 300 defensive snaps. He was still such a young player. You also had a coordinator, Brian Flores, who wants to win every single game and has Jonathan Gernard and Andrew Van Ginkle both playing at all pro caliber lever. levels. So probably tough to pull those guys out. But I expect this year them to have some different packages and personnel groupings with Dallas Turner in the mix. And then them to dis you know, intersverse Dallas Turner on other downs where you can give Andrew Van Ginkle and

Jonathan Granard a breather to where they can be so fresh or fresher in January when it matters most and when people are going to want and expect them to win. Like I think that's also part of it. the depth is at a place where Brian Flores hopefully has the trust and the willingness to utilize more of the youngsters so that by the back end of the season, this team is more than last year where Stefan Gilmore, the week before, week 18, is having a hard time walking in the locker room after the game. The last personnel thing on defense I wanted to mention is just losing Cam Bynum and having Theo Jackson step in for Cam Bynum. And why I think this is particularly important is that that third safety spot, quote unquote, based on how you're going to talk. talk about Josh Mattelis is really important for this team because if Josh Mattelis is just playing as like a deep safety within this defense, you are not realizing the best version of this defense. So whether Theo Jackson can be good enough to keep Josh Mattelis in the role he currently has,

based on everything I've heard today, the answer to that seems to be yes, but I think that was an important question for me coming in. Yeah, Theo Jackson, it's funny we're talking about him. I wrote about him today. But he is like, he was a six-round. pick from the Tennessee volunteers by the Tennessee Titans in 2022. And I remember, so he got released and then the

Vikings scooped him off the Titans practice squad. And I remember in 2023 joint practice is standing on the sideline and there was a Titan staffer watching Theo makes a play. And he says, is that Theo Jackson? I said, yeah, he said, we did not want to lose him at all. And so

from that point really, since Theo arrived in 22, I mean, they have viewed him almost like a budding starter. It has been Durante Jones, the defensive past game coordinators interviewed for DC jobs, said to me last week, like, I have held accountability with him that he has to like play and practice like a starter every single day because that is ultimately going to be his role. They view him just like they view Josh Mattelis of a guy with the skill set and the aptitude that will ultimately transition to that role. Now, he's going to have to prove it every Sunday. but there has been nothing that I've seen for multiple years now with Theo Jackson that would make me question his ability to step in and be trustworthy back there.

It really does feel like there's a path for this team to win some games like 24 to 19, right? And I think that's ultimately going to be part of this. And that wasn't always the case over the last couple of years, even when the defense was good. And I think part of that is that the ball control element on offense plays into that, right? Like the games overall, I think with this version of Vikings are just going to be a little bit dirtier. in part because of how much they'll be able to lean into the run game. I think that the style of play, even when they had a good defense last year, this was still a team that was chucking the ball all over the yard.

That was the defining part of the offense because it had to be. And so I think being able to win in a different way is indicative of what they're trying to seek out with flexibility on both sides of the ball. Can we win in different ways? And I think that is on a specific level, but also on a broader level, is the ways that we can win football games. Are there more of those available? You're exactly right. And the run game, I mean, we could talk about it. They have the offensive line personnel.

They have the two running backs. They have to go out there and prove it now because there have been, I mean, it's been, I remember after 2022, Kevin O'Connell's first year as a play caller, we're sitting in Indianapolis at a ballroom table and he says the run game's got to be better. And then guess what? In 2023, it wasn't. Then they said it after 2023. And guess what? In 2024, it really wasn't. And so, and maybe a little bit better, but I mean, not enough to where you can. lean on that as a central component of your team. And so it isn't coming upon them now to make this happen this year. And if it doesn't, then the griminess of these games is going to be even harder probably on Vikings fans' eyes. But you can't wish it better. Exactly. And I think that that's the most frustrating part about this over the last couple years is that sometimes the team just has to learn the hard way. And there were a couple times over the last couple off seasons when I would take this trip and I'd kind of be sitting there in conversation, be like, we're going to do this again with like Dalton, Reisner and Ed Ingram. We're going to do this again. And it's like,

you know, well, we'll get there. And there's some things that we can treat tweak. And then this offseason there was like, fuck this. And I'll tell you that you said, sometimes you got to learn the hard way. The hard way was learned the night in Glendale, Arizona. And Kevin O'Connell's at the podium after that game looking like he had just been through it. And a reporter asked him that night, like, do you guys have to prioritize the interior offensive line moving forward? And his answer was more forward and more critical than I think I have ever heard a guy who has as aware of what he's saying at all times. And from that point forward, it seemed like, you know, they were going to make, make that

the priority that it has been. And you're right. Like, you can't just wish to be better when you slide Dalton Reisner to right guard and move Blake Brandel to left guard. Like, at some point, you have to be able to move bodies because this is. It's still football, I believe. And so we'll see if that pays off come Monday night football in Chicago. I'll be there.

I can't. That is going to be a blast. Going as a fan. Very much looking forward to it. And I don't know if the best version of the Vikings will be realized over the course of this season. I have a bad feeling it will be realized that first night because that's how my life works. So we'll see how that goes.

It's funny because I've heard people here like, you know, it's going to be interesting to see them going to go again. what does Ben Johnson have in store for week one? I'm like, well, what does Brian Flores have in store? I'm not worried about what Ben Johnson has in store. I'm worried about what Brian Johnson has in store for Caleb. No, it should be a blast. Glad you popped over and looking forward to dinner.

Sounds good about. Talk to you soon. See you, Robert. Joining us now, it is our newest national NFL writer at the Athletic and the co-host of the NFL Daily podcast, Jordan, how you doing? I'm so happy to see you, Robert. It's so cool. We actually can talk about things and I don't have to respond to your questions with

I don't know as it pertains to Matthew Stafford. So I'm loving this week so far. You are not the Rams be writer at the athletic anymore. You are not there every day. But you still have more institutional knowledge about the Rams than anyone else on this staff. And so we're still going to have you on to have the Rams conversation as part of our training camp coverage. I'm honored. I'm honored.

And yes, I'm such a sicko. They can't keep me away. I still am trying to sneak to their walkthroughs as often as possible, fresh off of a red eye coming out of Washington for command. camp trying to sneak into the Rams walkthroughs still. So they can't keep me away. I'm like a bad barnacle. I just stick to him. Let's start with the big question, the one that we do have a little bit of clarity on at

this point that we have not for most of training camp. As somebody who is emotionally invested in the quality of the Rams offense and practically invested in Pooka Nakua in fantasy football, what can we expect for Matthew Stafford as far as this back injury goes early in the season? And then as the season goes along, how much of this is. a concern? For me, it's a concern. It's a huge concern for me personally because, yes, it is great that he's back at practice. Yes, it is great that he is throwing with his teammates. He still, since training camp has started, I would say you're looking at sub 150 throws total

in terms of the entire collective first team offense playing together. With someone with his experience level, normally you'd say, okay, that's not really that big of a deal. A couple of new players on the offense in Devante Adams, for example, figuring out the left tackle situation. But with Stafford's experience and skill level, normally you're like, okay, less worried than I typically would if a player missed that much time. With Stafford, as you know, Robert, and as I am learning into my 30s here, a back injury, I mean, I don't know, dude, that's a little, that's a little dicey. You could sneeze wrong and that thing starts acting up. You could sit on the couch wrong, and that thing starts acting up. You might have the wrong.

angle programmed into your little immortal chair and that thing could start acting up. So that's where I'm worried about it from that perspective is that because this was an issue that forced him to miss that amount of time, there's no reason to think that it would totally hinder him going into week one. But there's also no reason to think that this doesn't pop up again down the line in the season. What I'm worried about with this is that the Rams offense already felt a little bit fragile based on how the last few seasons have gone.

And we talk about this all the time, where we have this idea of the best version of the Rams that we always cling to in part because we know what they can accomplish. They won a Super Bowl threading a needle. They've had stretches of the last couple of seasons where when everything goes right, they look as dynamic and dangerous as any other team in the league. And I think we tend to trend toward that version of them,

like the realized version in ways we don't with other teams because it's so good. But if that's a slightly diminished version, if Matthew Stafford is 75% of who he's been at his best. If Larry Jackson isn't back and we're a little bit worried about the pass protection, which has been directly correlated to the quality of the passing offense for several years now, I just think that that best version that we have in our minds could start to fade away very fast early in the season if all of this stuff starts piling up. Yeah, it's a great point.

And I think, too, the one thing about this organization is we've talked about a lot in the past is there. Let's see how high we can fly and not so worry so much. much about the wax kind of organization. Like they're pretty hubristic at times and when it works for them, it really, really works for them. But when it doesn't, it can veer into total disaster. So while this organization has spent the entire offseason since this issue popped up with Matthew reiterating their confidence that everything will be fine, that they are not worried.

And I believe the people who are telling me that when they say it because I have no reason to doubt them at this point. At the same time, I think the moves that they made. over the last almost two seasons now and certainly this offseason have gone about showing you that when things go terribly wrong, if things go terribly wrong, they're trying to raise the floor of what this offense can be. It's having a quality backup who, despite whatever your opinion, not you, Robert, but the outside world's opinion might be. Sean McVay knows and believes he can win games with Jimmy Garoppelow at quarterback, having a veteran quality backup who can get the offense

installed during training camp, Sons Stafford. That was really important to them overhauling this run game, this offensive line, especially on the interior, to make sure that if they can't throw it the way they want it, they can sure run it. Getting running backs, continuing to cycle through running backs every single draft class, just in case the worst case scenario does happen with the starter and Kyron Williams. You know, all of these moves together collectively showcase a team that is trying to lift its worst case scenario from being catastrophic into, okay, we can manage for a few games if the disc

starts getting aggravated again. I think that makes perfect sense. I'm just thinking back to the Brett Rippin game against the Packers a couple years ago. Like when Matthew Stafford did not play for the Rams over the last few years before Jimmy Garoppelo, it was an issue. I don't want to pay Jimmy Garaplo $18 million a year to be my starting quarterback, but he is capable of piloting an offense capably in small stretches. It's just a matter of this team reaching its ceiling.

That's impossible with Jimmy Garoppel. could be competent. You can't be what you want to be. I mean, with Matthew Stafford, the whole thought in bringing him back is that, and in signing Devante Adams, we talked about this at the Combine. It's like the Matthew Stafford timeline is an immediate timeline. The Devante Adams move makes sense because of the Matthew Stafford timeline. So if you remove him from this, all of the other pieces, even if the floor is raised, start to make a little bit less sense when it comes to the ultimate goal. The other injury here that I want to just check in on, when I was there, which was very early in camp, there was some optimism that Alaric Jackson could be back.

If not by the start of the season, then maybe sooner than other blood clot issues have, quicker than other blood clot issues have unfolded for other guys. What is your sense of when we might see Alaric Jackson this season? Yeah, it's a great question. I've been checking on this throughout the course of camp because he's been out there working through individual drills, but he had not yet repped into team drills. And when I talked to people at the start of the summer, they were super optimistic about the treatment plan that they have him on and how he was responding to the treatment plan.

Sean McVeigh even went so far as to say there's some incredible miraculous adjacent things that science has unearthed about how to manage these types of things, especially for players, success stories in recent history. But again, a longer timeline than maybe we've seen in the past. Alec Jackson has dealt with these in the past as well. And so this is going to, it sort of turned into a one-off thing to maybe this is a long-term treatment plan now that he could potentially be enrolled in, essentially, with the Rams. And I think with Alaric, seeing him in the walkthroughs, that's actually pretty important to me. That's a little bit of a tell for me. Because normally you'd have DJ Humphreys or Warren McClendon, if you think that that is the left tackle who's going to be running, like in your offense on game days, you have those guys taking the bulk of the walkthrough snaps.

But actually seeing Alarick Jackson participating in the walkthroughs to me was a real sign of his progress. But I do want to stress that every time I've asked about this with the team, the priority and the comment that they've said is we just want to make sure it's safe. He's doing really well. We just want to make sure that he is physically safe to be out there at max capacity the way he will need to be in game. So that's sort of the next step is not just return to practice, which he seems to be doing, but return to what is it going to be like when the snaps are faster when the contact is more.

And I do think they believe coming off another season removed from that injury, DJ Humphreys can be a little bit of a backstop there if he does need to play in ways that Joe Nobom just never kind of became that swing tackle for them that they wanted him to be. So that's just one other area where are we raising the floor a little bit even if the best case scenario was off the table. So even if they're protected, there's a reason they gave Aller Jackson $19 million a year in free agency. Like that line, that like 18 to 21-ish million, the Allerick Jackson, Dan Moore market that's kind of started to unfold. That is a, we need this guy to start. Like this is the, we don't have to,

this is the I'm not losing sleep about who my left tackle is contract. And I think that speaks to the peace of mind that comes with somebody like Alaric Jackson at that spot. It's a peace of mind team build, Robert. It's so interesting. Some of these positions, they learned from their trauma, right? Like, okay, Brett Rippant, that was a disaster. Part of it, I will stick up for Brett a little bit. Nobody thought it was going to rain that day and then that they were going to switch completely to, depending on Daryl Henderson, who had just been signed off of the sand flag football courts in Santa Monica to come play for the Rams at that time. You know, like that that wasn't something that they were expecting. So, but they learned from it. They never again, first of all, they cut him and then

they never again had a dearth of backup, available backups who could actually successfully run the offense regardless of whatever the chaos the world threw into the situation last minute. They also, similar with running back, people forget, their also, their running back room was a disaster that season because of injuries. I get fantasy football people in my mentions all the time. Why the hell isn't Blake Corrin playing? Why the hell is, are they drafting Jarquez Hunter so high when they're not going to, and paying Kyron Williams. And this is, you have to

defame the fantasy football. Like I want a guy to get touches, mindset, and think, this is Sean McVeigh trauma response. Like, he's not, he's going to make it to where, okay, my starting running back, who I love is not playing right now and what is the worst case scenario

and how can I alleviate what otherwise would be a worst case scenario? Same with what you outline at left tackle. How can we take, think about catastrophes, as a lot of these coaches do, how can we think about the worst thing that could possibly happen to my team on a football field and alleviate or lift the floor of that situation.

And that's exactly what some of these positions are, two of which that I outlined in one at left tackle that you outlined. Yeah. I mean, what they said last year about Playcoram, the entire calculus and mindset about drafting Blake Corum was, if Kyron Williams gets hurt, we still have Kyron Williams. Like that was the only thought. It almost went beyond what Blake Corum was as a player. It was mostly about Kyler, Kyron Williams insurance, which I think, again, that speaks to

the mindset they're using to approach some of these things. I want to talk about like three or four individual pieces on the offense and the mindset behind acquiring them and how they might get folded in. Tavante Adams is obviously the headline edition here. And when I was at camp, I think the takeaway that I had and how they envisioned the role for him was that we had not seen like a true X receiver within this offense. And so what you can do with some of those three by one formations where they're tilting coverage one way, now you have a true winner out there.

And he can still do a lot of the option route stuff that Cooper covers. is capable of doing. So the thought was, maybe we lose a little blocking, but as far as the passing game deployment goes, he can do all the stuff that Cooper can do and he is still a dynamic X receiver. So how do you see that sort of role reshaping or kind of pushing the Rams

in a slightly different direction than what we've seen over the last couple of years? Yeah, I think that move also can't be as easily made if they still don't have a healthy Tyler Higbee. Because you mentioned it, the blocking is something they're going to lose. Cooper Cup, and you'll see it in Seattle this year, too, to this day. Will, and I've compared him to like the Black Knight and Monty Python,

he could be missing a leg. And he'll still going to dig something out in the run game, right? And so that's just who he is. So you are missing that. But having Tyler Higby back, and he activates so much of their run surface now that they're sifting him, now that they're moving him on these escort motions and these blast plays that they like to run with their gap scheme and their middle zone, like those types of things are activated because you have Tyler Higby and you're still asking

Puka Nakua to do some of that but you also are not making Puka sacrifice his body maybe so much because you want him running the heck down the field so Devante fits in with this because this actually sort of is their their long time goal that they've been trying to get to for a couple of seasons now of first half of Super Bowl O'Dell Beckham on the field yeah having seeing how dramatically that shifted, especially leading up to that game, how dramatically teams were starting to have to defend Odell or not defend him because they were bracketing at that time Cooper Cup. So now Puka Nakua, they think, is going to be obviously the player who's going to demand a lot of that type of coverage, which then shifts things over to Devante Adams, having more opportunities,

and also having the creative, the experience, the veteran ability, the football IQ to deploy, those option routes like you're saying you be where the quarterback knows that space will open up and choose to do that and have that autonomy within the offense so i think that's what they're trying to imitate except a much more modern version of that that depends on different types of players and also will sort of predict the rules that defenses will try to play them all year because god help you you leave pukinakua open okay great okay you leave devante adams in single coverage or Puka Nakua and sing like it's just it's I've been comparing it to like a Sophie's choice situation. You're doomed either way.

So I feel like this is what they're going to at least try to do goes back to having Stafford being able to get the ball to him. Yeah, there's no doubt. I mean that that's how this all comes together. That's the straw that stirs the drink. And if he's not healthy, none of the rest of this really matters. And that's why I'm just holding on to the idea of him being healthy. Without Cooper, the whole idea and the whole kind of manifestation of this Rams offense over the last

seven years is that our 11 personnel isn't really 11 personnel because of the way our receivers block. So now if you have, Puka still blocks, but now if you have one of those guys rather than two, do we see them play even more 12 personnel this year than they started to last year because losing Cooper Cup kind of necessitates that version of the offense? So I think so. It is funny when you bring this out, this is something, you and I've talked about this often, And where every year in the spring and the early summer, it's totally certain that Sean McVeigh is going to move toward more 12th personnel.

He's going to do the thing. He's going to go back to his roots, the former tight ends coach, and all of these guys are on the roster. And like, it's going to be great and all this stuff. You know, this year he goes out and gets Terrence Ferguson, who looks incredible when he's been on the field. He's dealing with a little groin issue. But, like, he's looked smooth out there.

He's gotten a lot of first team reps, him and Tyler Higbee together. you've got the sort of John Bates-esque role with Colby Parkinson, sort of echoing some of what the commanders are doing with their 12 personnel packages. So it's like it's all there, right? But I was laughing with a Rams coach the other day where it's like it all looks great and it's all getting installed. And everything is telling me, yes, this is going to be a team that at will can and will deploy more 12 personnel. as I sort of had an uptick in last season at the end of the year when Tyler Higby did come back. Yes, this is going that direction. But like we always joke with Sean every single year, it seems like it's the year.

And then all of a sudden, you're back in 11 personnel for most of the year. So I think this is like he wanted more multiplicity overall in his offense. They got really one dimensional and sort of hamstrung by injuries and deploying everything through one player who couldn't say on the field. So then now they're just trying to make sure they have a lot of optionality in what they can do if they need to be a 12. personnel team, they should and will be a 12 personnel team. If they need to go back to 11 and that's where the best game plan and matchups are, they should. But it's like they want to run more 12 personnel.

They're built to run more 12 personnel. Will they do it? I don't know. I've been burned before. How do you see the Terrence Ferguson roll shaking out? That was one of the next things I was going to ask you. Like even if he is a tight end, or are we really going to see him in more of a big slot role considering what the other

tight ends can do? And like it almost feels more analogous to maybe. what some of the stuff Cooper Cup was doing is rather than what some of the things Tyler Higby and Colby Parkinson might be doing. Do you think that's a fair representation? Yeah, I do think so because I think even more so, and Tyler has been

sort of a stalwart in this offense for so long, but is on the back end of his career going into the last year of his deal, really wants to finish strong, finish healthy in terms of his career overall. Colby is, they tried it with some of the past catching, and I think Colby would also tell you that he's definitely

going to be a science to digging out more of the blocking surface and also some of that intermediate and short range outlet stuff that you can see with the second tight end. But I think with Terrence, the cool thing is they want him to like be the F. And I think that's interesting because in the short term, it is a little bit of a trial as you go. And I don't know that Sean is still going to be wanting to sub in and out players a ton in this offense.

They like to go fast. They like to move quickly off the snap. They like to get defenses regulated into the same. in the same look for as long as possible. So I don't know that he's going to be subbing Terrence in a lot, but if it works and if Terrence does take on this F role that they have the power slot, the hybrid tight end, the mismatch or the mathematical advantage in the passing game, specifically similar to what Cooper Cup was able to do back in 2021, for example.

I think that this is where the direction eventually they will go full time with Terrence Ferguson. his potential is as a past catcher. He really worked. He was with Logan Paulson for a while in the off season, really working on some of the nuances of the blocking game. But his gift is going to be creating space for himself and fluidly manipulating some of those areas underneath the zones. And that is what they want for this next sort of iteration

of what Sean McPhase, tight-end group is going to look like, especially in a post-Tyler-Higbee world. That makes total sense. And again, sometimes you want to listen to what teams are trying to tell you. Unfortunately, the Rams' lie. The Rams lie all the time where they'll do something and then Sean will give up on it two weeks into the season because it didn't work once. So that is the nature of the experience with the Los Angeles Rams. Yeah, I'm doing incredibly well after five years of that. I'm thriving as a mental.

My mental state is always great. You know, unfortunately, Sean's going to rub off on you in ways that are just completely unavoidable, unavoidable. I use the word ecosystem. I've noticed that about myself. I want to die. Come on now. When it comes to the defense, I don't really have any questions about the front. It's just the front is good. I think the Puna Ford thing makes total sense based on everything else that they had. I love watching them play.

I think this group specifically, we don't spend a lot of time on this, but a lot of the coaches and defensive coaches I've been talking to over the last month, this idea of how are we rushing together, right? Like what does the cohesive plan look like where the pass rush can become more than the sum of the parts individually? The Rams have good parts individually. but I also feel like they're incredibly good complementary pieces. Like what, I think Kobe Turner is like the best complimentary interior rusher in the league because of the way that he moves, what he looks like on stunts and games.

So I don't really have any questions about this. Like I completely understand what it's supposed to be, how it's supposed to function. And I think the real like fanged, dangerous version of this we saw in the back half of the season is the version that I expect to see again this year. Yeah, the one question I would put in people's brains. and this is more of like an educated hint that I'm not really allowed to talk about in full, but because you can't really talk about what you watch in the walkthroughs, but per their rules of their like access.

I would question who is going to be in the Michael Hoyt role and could we see somebody who was frequently rushing off of one edge for them and is a more veteran experienced player slide into that fifth rusher in their Cheetah package role, which would then kick out an ascending young play. a little bit more into an outside rushing position at times, just depending on whether you're a nickel or whether you're in a little bit more of a base or if they're in a bigger nickel, which they use with Quentin Lake, who's the safety, or if they're in a smaller nickel with Kobe Durant or another safety that's a little bit smaller

sized, it's going to be really interesting because that was one of their most successful pure past rush packages. And what a lot of people don't know, Michael Hoyt was a huge loss for them. He's in Buffalo now, though he'll be suspended for the first part of the season. but the the way he like he was allowed to change the call at at the line like they they always have a linebacker now that used to have safeties as their green dot now it's an inside linebacker Nate landman I'll be doing that for them Michael Hoyt could change the rush call at the line when they were in the cheetah package because of the way that him and Kobe Turner could communicate and how savvy and knowledgeable Kobe Turner is specifically about getting everybody else lined up where they need to be I agree with you because Kobe Turner can do anything along that line and I mean, I think you want to try, maybe barring rushing off the edge. But all those guys can move. And I think that's where fans need to kind of have a lookout this season is how are they going to get their five rush package deployed in those pure pass rush situations that they really had success with under Chris Shula and Giff Smith last year.

And who fills that role when they drafted Josiah Stewart. I thought, okay, maybe he could come in and eventually do that. So far they're experimenting with who they move into that fifth rush. spot, even if it's taking him away from one of his traditional edge positions. I'm hinting very strongly here. I'm probably going to get sniped as I walk out of here. But yes, it is very fascinating to see how they mix up this front. And I think Chris Shula is looking at Jesse Minter.

Chris Shula is looking at Mike McDonald. Chris Shula is looking at, yes, when Vic Fangio can always rush for and some of the coverage things that they do on the back still mirrors that. But Chris Shula is really taking things from outside. the recent history of this defensive, like, coaching tree, what they've done and trying to manufacture pressure in different ways. I think that's pretty interesting. The Michael Hoyt point is such a good one. They were really into just what his football acumen looks like in Buffalo when I was talking to people there. It was one of the things that

attracted to him, attracted them to him the most. Tell me why I shouldn't be worried about the back seven of this defense, considering it's the same group as last year except just Nate Landman. And they're excited about Nate Landman. They'll tell you that they're excited about Nate Lamont. But I really was hoping, whether it was Jalen Ramsey or somebody else, we would see some sort of urgency at one of those outside cornerback spots in order to kind of really push this thing to the next level if they were going to try to make a run. They didn't do that. They brought back a Keller-Weather spoon. It's really the same group that we saw last year. And I know the defense was better in the back half of the season. But when you're a team with

Super Bowl aspirations, I look at just the construction of this back seven. And it makes me a tiny bit itchy. should I be or can you talk me down from that a little bit? I think you should be itchy. But I also, that's like a drop quote right there, like Robert Mays, I think you should be itchy. But it is interesting because they're good at safety. Like I have no worries about their safety. Totally. I think Cam Curl will see more competition to stay on the field than in previous seasons,

just because their depth is emerging as such a really strong Cam Kitchens and Jalen McCullough. and Quentin Lake, who will play their nickel position, but also be back in the more of the field marshal area as well. They're good at safety and they're deep and they somehow, and this is actually a Chris Shula thing because he's on this committee for undrafted free agents, they always find safety somehow. And so that's fine. It's the outsides. It's the perimeter that I think is certainly a worry. And I think when I talk about wax on the wings and this team being pretty hubristic at times, this is one of the things I'm talking about.

because they really believe that they, if they improve their pass rush enough, that they don't necessarily have to worry about being plus plus on the perimeters because the quarterback is not going to be able to get the ball there. That's truly the logic. And I always used to joke with Rams fans. I'm just the messenger. Like, it's not my plan. But that's what they really, that's what they really think.

And I think there's some logic to it when you look at how capable this pass rush is in this front. But, and then adding Puna Ford, they're thinking. okay, we're going to set up longer downs, and this pass rush will force the quarterback to target more of the middle of the field or the shorter distance where we do have our best players, the Quentin Lakes and some of the safeties who move around and now improving the way they think they have at inside linebacker as well. So I think that's part of their logic. Now, I think when Akello and Darius are playing and they're healthy, they're fine. I think they do a really solid job. They're not people who are going to, you know, they're not going to make it on lists or whatever. but I think they do a solid job.

It's that Darius is 32 and Akello is 30, and you just worry about the wear and tear, and you worry about the injuries. And then behind them is Kobe Durant, who's struggled to stay on the field at times because of injuries, but has so many traits and has flashed a lot of potential. And then you have Emmanuel Forbes, who Aubrey Pleasant is dead set on turning into the player

that meets the potential we all saw out of him in the draft. And so I think that this is, super interesting because that's your depth, right? One of those guys, you do not want to tackle in space in the run game and teams will try to force the ball there. And then another guy has struggled at times to stay on and off the field. When he's on the field, he makes play. So that's the four deep. And I don't know that I would feel totally comfortable about that.

But like I said, this is a team that very much thinks that improving their front to the best that it possibly can be will help on the back end. Yeah, the Emmanuel Forbes thing is so funny. It's just like one of those pet projects. where I would, you're there, it's just like, oh, yeah, we think we can do this, right? Like, they couldn't, but we think we can do this. It's just such a perfect example of how this team operates sometimes. Speaking of being the messenger, the last thing I'll ask you about the defense, I'm sure you have heard the Nate Landman spiel from people in L.A.

and why they're excited about Nate Landman. Give me the Rams version of the Nate Landman spiel and why we should be optimistic about what he can bring to the middle of this defense as that green dot player. Yeah, so he'll call it for. fine. He'll be fine on that. He's experienced doing that and he can tackle. And I think that's the thing is they're at the point where they're realizing, especially because they're in that bigger nickel with Quentin Lake so often, they're realizing, okay, if we're not going to pay linebackers, then we cannot pretend that this linebacker can do more than he actually can. Right. And so I think

what we're seeing with them is a trend that I think will be still continuing around the league where we're going to put a big safety down low to help you so that you don't have to move as side to side as often so that you have help who can move with motion players who can coordinate and dictate some of the passing contours. And he's a big enough player to where he's also going to help you and run support. You don't feel weird that you have a smaller nickel on the field. You can mitigate some of the things you're seeing with tight ends. Like that's a trend that we saw a little bit last year with that third safety. we're going to see it even more, I think, this upcoming season. Teams are drafting this way.

You can tell as well. And the Rams are going to be doing it this way. You can't, if you're going to only commit a certain amount of resources to your inside linebacker and you want to keep only one of them on the field frequently, then you're going to have to adjust some of your other team build and schematic model in accordance to helping that player. You can't ask him to be a plus two player if he's a plus 1.5 or a plus 1. So I think he really helps them as the organizer of the defense, right?

And I think he helps him in the run game. The other thing that I think helps is Puna Ford being there. I think that when you are cleaning up the traffic right at the contact point, everyone else's job gets easier behind you. So I think that move as well as schematically adjusting a little bit helps Nate Landman. And I'm not trying to act like he's like playing with one leg out there. Like he can tackle. He's done well.

But this Rams team has always. valued that position. They've always moved on from players early at that position. They never extend that position. They never put money or draft picks, high draft picks or resources into that position. And part of it is because they're changing around how they do things and feel like, again, their front and that big safety coming down is going to help clean up kind of the mess around the linebacker. We're in the final week of August, almost there. And I cannot wait to ignore every red flag about this team and choose to believe that they're going to be good again. It's an annual tradition that I look forward to every single time the calendar turns to September.

Jordan Roderig, always good to chat with you. Sincerely appreciate the time. We'll do it again very soon. Thanks, Robert. I'm looking forward to flying close to the sun with you, man. Joining us now, it is our Patriots writer here at the Athletic Chad Graf. Chad, how you doing, man? Doing well.

How are you? I'm doing great. You got to go back to Minnesota for a joint practice. Everyone there was like, Chad Graff is like, he should work for the Minnesota Bureau of Tourism. He's so excited about Minnesota in the summer. I had so many New England people, hey, what's it like? What should we know? I'm like, it's the best summer in Minnesota.

You kidding me? Like you deal with the nine months of, you know, maybe six months of hell for how good June, July, August are. So yeah, I had a blast. It was raining when I was there and all the people in the PR staff were like apologizing. They're like, we promise it's not normally like this. It's like, guys, I come here every year. I know it's beautiful in August. You don't have to worry about it.

Like, I'm sold. I know that. that you have like this, the thing where you have to kind of overcompensate for everyone else that doesn't understand it's great here. I'm already a convert. Like, you don't have to worry about me. It's almost the default when you're living in Minnesota, especially in the winter and people would come for games. Like, no, no, no, I promise. I promise it's worth it. It gets better. Trust me. It gets better. Trust me is potentially a good tagline for the 2025 New England Patriots, or at least they hope it is. Let's talk about just some of the areas where this team is potentially going to be

improved. This was, by a lot of accounts, we did our AFC East preview on the show yesterday. It was one of the worst offensive lines I've watched since I started covering the NFL. And we knew that coming into the year, right? They were going to be holding on for their, holding on for dear life. They were going to be white knuckling it through the entire season. So even if Will Campbell and Jerry Wilson and Garrett Bradbury and Morgan Moses, it's not a great line, it's still going to be significantly better than it was last year. So what can you tell me just about how the members of that group have been jelling and what like reasonable expectations might. be for the Patriots offensive line this year after all of those moves.

Yeah, first things first, you're a pros pro, Robert. That was a hell of a transition. Here's where I'm out with the offensive line. And I've kind of gone back and forth on this a few times, which is everybody knows it's not going to be worse than last year. It just cannot possibly be worse than it was last year. And so the reasonable thinking is like, trade may is about to have a better offensive line. That's awesome.

We should get better results from that. And like maybe I'm sure we'll get into some of that. But also I think the realistic expectation, especially after watching what we've seen so far in training camp, which as you might predict with two rookies on the left side of the offensive line, has been up and down. I think a fair expectation is like the 25th best O line in the NFL, which sounds really bad and frankly is really bad.

And yet considering that they were far and away 32nd a year ago, especially pass blocking, I do think that's progress. And the past blocking is where I'm most concerned. Like what they've done on the ground has been impressive. Like Will Campbell, you get him out in space with some of these toss sweeps that they've given Trayvion Henderson. Like you can see the big plays waiting there. And I was skeptical of the pick of Trayvon Henderson in the second round.

I take it all back. I was dead wrong. Like finally they have some juice and some explosiveness. And they've finally been fun to watch in training camp because of him and what he can do. And so I think the O line's. going to be decent run blocking. I just have a lot of questions about how they're going to protect Drake, May. I think it's totally fair. I mean, Jared Wilson moving to guard. I mean, those are going to be different sort of matchups than he faced when he played center in college.

Will Campbell, we've seen the flashes in the run blocking. That lack of length has already shown up against NFL rushers even in the preseason. It's going to be a process over there. And that missed stunt they had in the first preseason game, even if you like the added individual talent along the offensive line, these are still two rookies who have never played together before. So we're going to have those low light moments. And so I think that totally tracks. I do have a little bit of optimism for like what the upside case can be if that left side comes together.

But I think 25th and it has to be better than it was last year, that's enough is an okay way to look at this. As we go to the past catchers, I am very curious about how you see this shaking out. Like when we get to week 12 and this team is an 11 personnel, who do you think are the three guys that they want to count on when we get into the meat of the. season. For sure, one of them that they want to, that they hope when it's week 11, 12, 13, they hope one of them is going to be Kyle Williams. Like, they drafted this guy to bring some juice. So much of this draft was, let's get what we just flat out have not had, whether it's a

position of need or not. And so part of that is a deep play guy. He is a guy who, you know, if you need a 20 plus play, Depanish just haven't had that. Like, you look around what they've had. it didn't matter that Drake May had an awesome arm when they had to Mario Douglas and KJ Osborne and just like a bunch of Jujus Smith-Schuster and a bunch of like big slot shifty guys. And of course, this is still a job. I know it's hard to think back about what they've had in recent years

and not just chuckle a little. All these four, seven big bodied guys. That was the entire receiving core for multiple years. I think it's a very good thing to bring up. So now they actually like, it finally looks different. You've got Mac Hollins and I know Mac Hollins is not, like a number one receiver or anything, but he's their first six foot forward, like, possession here, Drake, you know, everything is hitting the fan around you.

Here's a guy that will just like go catch the ball, even if you don't put it perfectly for him. And so I think it can compliment well if Kyle Williams develops into that deep threat that you just have not had because so much of what, and it hasn't really happened yet, we should say, in training camp, that's probably to be expected. He's a rookie third round pick. he's dealing with what is probably a concussion after a big hit in the last game. And so hasn't been out there a ton when he was out there. It was fine, not great.

There were some drops. His hands are a bit of a question. And so he's who they want to. But I think what they're going to roll into with week one is Mack Hall and Stefan Diggs into Mario Douglas. How quickly do you think that Kyle Williams can be like a regular piece of the passing offense and a regular piece of the rotation? probably at least a month. I don't think it's going to happen right away.

I think it's going to take some time. But the other kind of drawback to this is what makes Drake May so fun is, you know, his deep ball ability and like the Josh Alleniness of all of this. And so far in training camp, it's just been a lot of like dink and dunk. Here's DeMario Douglas for, you know, a crosser over the middle. And maybe he can shake off somebody. Maybe he can't. Here's Hunter Henry for a seven-yard completion.

It's been a lot of that Mac Hollins down the sideline or on a quick slant or something. Like they just, it's an offense that already has not had explosiveness in like four or five years, basically since Tom Brady left. They finally have some explosiveness in the backfield. But until Kyle Williams is ready, they still don't really have a ton of explosiveness. Well, I think their passing game can be effective. They just don't have explosiveness until he's ready. By all accounts, it sounds like Stefan Diggs.

has just been healthy for pretty much the entire summer. Like, he's been out there, which coming off of a torn ACL in your 30s, and we've seen guys have a much more elongated timeline than that. Should we just expect him to be like full go week one? You are going to be the number one receiver on this team? It sounds crazy, but the short answer is yes. Like pre-training camp, a week before camp, I was thinking maybe he starts on the populous, even.

Like, it was late October that he tore his ACL. So we're not talking about like a full 12-month recovery. or anything. And yet, he's basically been doing everything. They've kept them out of a couple of the joint practices or the like really more physical stuff. But a guy who's basically doing everything, who they're going to give a ton of targets to, in part because they kind of have to when you look at the makeup of their wide receiver group. And so the production they think is going to be there. They look at it like, hey, he was on pace for a thousand yards. Once again, while he was in Houston, the injury doesn't happen. He probably gets there. He comes here where,

you know, our receiver group is not as good. We're going to give him a ton of targets. Like, yeah, we think he can be our kind of low-level number one receiver. I think the way that they spent their money this off season, we can quibble with. And we talked about it a little bit on the show today. Just I think there was some of those contracts that they might regret pretty quickly by next year. They have the money where they can kind of deflect the downside, but I still think they were really aggressive. The Diggs move is one of those where I'm like, that makes sense to me every time.

There's not a ton of downside risk. You can move on from him after this year. if you want to, and you give yourself something to help the development of your young quarterback in the short term. So that's one where even if the sticker price looks pretty big for a guy at this age coming off of an injury, I actually think that there's, it's a shrewd move when you think about the timeline of what this team is supposed to be. And think back to just what their options were.

Like they were all in on Chris Godwin. He said, no thanks. I got a good thing going down here. I don't want to come up there. Outside of that, there were not a ton of options. T. Higgins never really became available. And so they're just, you know, and the draft wasn't a spot where you were going to draft a wide receiver

with the number four overall pick. And so you need the left tackle desperately. And also, if you did, guess what, Vedarian Lowe's your left tackle again? And we saw how that went last year. And so they didn't have a ton of options. So I totally understand the move. I get it.

I don't know if any of it's going to work. Like I can at least squint with the offensive line and be like, you know what, if Will Campbell really figures out the past, blocking, you know, maybe there's a world in which this gets to like the 18th best O line. I do struggle a little bit. And maybe I'm not giving Kyle Williams enough credit just because it hasn't been a stellar camp, but I'm just struggling a little bit of how does the wide receiver group elevate

into the top 20? I'm not really seeing that path yet. I believe in Kyle Williams. I love to him as a prospect. And so I'm probably seeing that through rose color glasses. But I can get to a point in the back half of the season where Kyle Williams, Stefan Diggs, Trevionn Henderson, Hunter, Henry is something that you can at least. work with, especially considering how this looked over the last couple years.

Well, and that's, that's kind of the best way to sum up the Patriots right now is after the last couple of years. This is at least something you can work with. Like, you can say that about every facet of the team, the coaching staff, almost every position. Like, are they going to be a great team this year? No. But you can consistently with this team shrug your shoulders and like, ah, they got something to work with finally. Like, that's better than that, better than it has been. How do you see the Trevian and Henderson, Remandre Stevenson pairing shaking? Yeah. Like, is this going to be a scenario where we see Treveon Henderson situational? He's going to be the passing down back.

Or do you feel like over the course of the season, he can really start eating into a larger workload because he's just such a dynamic presence? I think he's going to start eating into the workload right from week one. Like, he is, he just has so much that they don't have anywhere else. And they've been surprised by his ability to run between the tackles. I think when you draw this whole thing up back in late April, the view was, yeah, Ramondry is probably our first and second. down guy. This guy, you know, is going to be our expulsiveness. He's a good pass catcher. He's fast

like Ramandre is not. We'll sprinkle him in and he'll be our third down guy plus maybe a little extra. All of a sudden, we're sitting here after the first couple of preseason games and the way that practices have gone so far. And the team is even like, okay, maybe, maybe it's 50-50. Maybe even by the end of the season, Trevion is just no doubt the guy. Like, he's been that impressive. one of those guys that, you know, you know from being around training camps and stuff, every time you talk to somebody with the team like, oh, God, we are so impressed with this Trave-Young. And it's extended to Minnesota. They were very impressed with him and the joint practices there. It's just been as good of a training camp as you possibly could have hoped for

to finally have somebody with the Patriots who, if you're a defensive coordinator, might actually scare you. Like, think about how easy it's probably been to game plan for these offenses in recent years. And, you know, maybe it still will be. But at least they have some. somebody with some juice like, hey, if we don't hit this hole right, like he's gone for 20 yards. I can guarantee you that Trayvion Henderson is going to be a star in the NFL. And the reason that I can guarantee you that is he went one pick before the Bears picked in the second round and the Bears wanted him. So that's how I can tell you for sure that Trayvion Henderson is going to be an incredible NFL player. Yeah, fair enough.

But like, did you see his 100-yard kickoff the other day? Yes, I did. I mean, every time he touches the ball. it's ridiculous. And I think the in-between the tackle stuff and how quickly that comes along, that is ultimately going to determine this. Because a lot of the other things that hold young running backs back early in their careers, past protection, just little nuances are things he does well.

So there just aren't that many things keeping him from being a bigger or more pronounced part of the offense. Even the de facto general manager, Elliot Wolfe said that. When asked about him, he was like, look, you know, we studied him. Obviously, saw all of the pre-draft stuff, knew he was going to be fast, who knew he could catch the ball and knew that he was kind of a pain in the ass as a blocker and be willing to step up and grab a blitz or stuff like that. What we didn't know, what we've been surprised by,

is how good he is between the tackles and being able to make the right reads and hit the hole. And so that comment to me, you know, signaled all sorts of alarm bells of like, hey, this guy is not just going to be the third down, second and long guy. Like, they are going to use this guy a ton. And I think at this point, I would genuinely predict them to give him more touches, then they give Ramadre Stevenson this season. On a big picture level, what do you expect from the structure of a Josh McDaniels offense in 2025? Like, is this something that's going to look like Josh McDaniels offenses that we've seen before?

Or have you gotten indications that we're going to see some evolution with parts of how this is? It's going to be similar with a few different wrinkles. They're going to live in heavier personnel a little bit more than they did in some of the Brady days, which, you know, obviously makes sense. Tom Brady's not the quarterback anymore. You're not going to be passing it quite as much as they did. Mike Brable is a coach that still likes a balanced offense. And so, you know, all of those things will factor into that.

I think my concern so far after watching it is that everything for Drake has been, don't turn the ball over, you know, you're not going to go broke, taking a profit, take what's in front of you, let's get that six-yard game, let's move the change, let's stay on schedule. That's kind of been their whole offense for three years was like, We cannot afford to get off schedule because we have no ability to come back from that. And so I hope that is a little bit of like, hey, early on in this, Drake, you know, we're going to have the training wheels on you. And we don't want you doing crazy stuff.

But if you're going to get the full Drake May experience and get everything out of him, like I think at some point you do have to lean into a little bit of that crazy stuff and let him do Josh Alleny things. And yeah, every now and then you're going to be, God, what was that? What was he thinking? And that's totally fair. because I think the alternative to that is that occasionally he's going to make some throws that maybe said what in the world that that was unbelievable. And so the training wheels have been on a little bit. I just hope that that's because it's training camp and let's make sure we're focused

on not turning the ball over, which was an issue a year ago with him. And it's something that will gradually peel off as the season comes along and not something that's here for good. Same question on defense. because Terrell Williams was with the Lions last year and was with Mike Vrable when he was in Tennessee as the defensive line coach. The Lions ran a very specific sort of offense.

That was a man, we are going to challenge you all the time sort of team. The Patriots have the corners to do that, but that's not necessarily, even though they played a decent amount of man in Tennessee, what Mike Vrable has been when he's been the head coach. So just stylistically, what do you expect the Patriots defense under Toro Williams to look like? Stylistically, because of Christian and the

and Carlton Davis. I think they're going to play a ton of man. They're, you know, very optimistic about those two corners, which obviously makes sense. And then the question to me becomes, because I do think that that can work and will be interesting, but are they able to get any sort of pressure off of the edge? Like, I think the interior D-Lines should be good with Christian Barmore and after they spent tons of money on Milton Williams. Their linebacker situation, there's zero depth there.

So another spot that they have to pray, there's no injuries. but like Robert Spillane should be able to get behind those guys and as he's done for three straight years rack up a ton of tackles. The safety group is good. Like Gibral Peppers is, you know, it's been a long time coming for him in a little bit of a weird career. He's turned into a really, really good hard hitting safety that they can move around and put in a number of different spots.

Jalen Hawkins has become a good safety for them. But, man, the edge rushers is just such a giant question mark of is, you know, Caleb-on-Chayson's actually been pretty good this training camp. Is that because he's going up against a rookie left tackle and, you know, he's just going to win some of those because it's the rookie left tackle's first training camp? Or is he actually good and ready to kind of live up to that first round profile? Is there, is Harold Landry more than just like a Mike Rable guy? Is he ready to, you know, become a more consistent guy there? Or was it just, hey, you're a Brable guy and we've got more money than we know what to do with.

come on down and let's set the culture. So Keon White even, like, Keon White has had some awesome, awesome, like kick your ass moments. And then also games that go by were like, was Keon out there? Oh my God, he played 50 snaps? That's wild.

And where he just totally disappeared. And granted, he was asked to a lot of things, moved inside a little bit, played outside. But one or two of those guys have to step up for this defense to be the top 10 group that I think it can be. That's just where I have the questions is on the edge. Keanu White to me is like kind of the skeleton key of this whole thing. Like if he can be a real difference maker and play outside full time because you feel good about outside in like four two nickel looks, right?

Like when they're in subpersonnel, which you're going to play most of the time, and it's third and seven, do you have Milton Williams, Christian Barmore inside with Keon White outside and then whoever, right? We'll throw Harold Landry there, whoever the fourth guy is. Can Keon White in that role be somebody that offenses consistently have to worry about? If the answer to that is yes, with the two inside guys, with the corners that they have, I think this defense could at least be annoying even if they're going to have some holes as a team that still is rebuilding a little bit. Remember, Ken, why I had five sacks through the first three games last season? Yes, I remember I loved watching him.

Here it comes. It's finally arrived for this guy. It took a little bit, but here we go. And then none after that, zero. So, yes, like whether it's him or Harold Landry or. chase on or anybody. They just need somebody there because I think Christian Gonzalez is a no doubt top 10

corner with the chance to elevate and be even better. Carlton Davis should be a very good number two. I like the safety position a lot for them. Marcus Jones in the SWAT should be okay, I guess. You know, probably fine. It is kind of funny to think back to

just saying his name reminded me of how bad the offense has been, which remember two or three years ago, like their most explosive player was Marcus Jones, not even making that up. That's just a genuinely true thing. And so, yeah, it's all come a long way. And it's back to, like, with the Patriots that, yeah, it's, it's fine now. Whatever, it's, it's fine.

The last thing I'll ask you about, what's the deal with Kyle Dugger? Like, do we feel like Kyle Dugger is going to get moved? Like, where do we sit with Kyle Dugger on the eve of the season here? So before they went to Minnesota for those joint practices, uh, they were kind of running some scout team reps just to, you know, you know, give Drake, hey, here's Byron Murphy and here's his number and here's Harrison Smith. So you just so you know who these guys are. And I'm, you know, having fun with it and thinking back to some of the Vikings days like, oh, yeah, there's that. And I kind of look at Harrison

Smith. I'm like, who's Harrison Smith? Oh, my God. Kyle Dugger is reppping like scout team defense for Drake May while the other like real defenders are over here. Because this is training camp. Like guys 75 through 90 on the roster are just those scout team guys. And Kyle Dugger, was that guy. Then you get into the preseason game against the Vikings. He's playing the entire fourth quarter. Like, not the first drive of the fourth quarter. He was in there.

He made the interception on the last play of the game. And then I'm sure this drove Rable nuts kind of looked like he was trying to return it out of the end zone when just intercepting it ended the game. And he fumbles, but, you know, whatever. It's preseason. Nobody really cares because maybe his butt hit the ground and he was down. At any rate, those two things alone should tell you that Kyle Dugger may not be making this. team. At this point, I would be surprised if he did. I don't think you really do that to your

seventh highest paid player just to retain him. And then that, I think, opens up an entire other discussion of those early months of the Elliott Wolf Gerard Mayo era. They're coming off of a four and 13 season. And if you'll remember, they extended everybody. Giovanni Tavai, Godshaw, Dugger, Romandri Stevenson with a contract that now looks so bad, especially as Trivion excels, because you can't cut remandri next year. even without a ton of dead cap. And so, man, there are a lot of bad contracts handed out in that very short, like four or five month window.

And that Kyle Dugger one might be among the worst of them when it looks like he's about to get cut. I mean, if he does get cut, we're already moved on from Godshaw and Kyle Dugger like a year after we signed both of those contracts. So we'll see how it goes. The financial outlook for this team over the last couple of years, they have so much money that it probably doesn't matter. but I think you could argue with the prudency of some of the things that they have done

both this offseason and last off season. For sure, we haven't even gotten to like Jolani Tavai's contract and he may not be around long, but it isn't even just the free agent part because you mentioned all the money they have. Look back at the recent drafts. Last year's draft, the first one with Elliot Wolf running the show, there's a chance, and I don't know if this is going to happen. We'll see who gets cut and who doesn't or whatever. There's a chance that the draft from 16 months ago, the,

only player remaining in a week is Drake May. Like Jalen Polk was the second round pick. Marta Moppa was a recent one, but like that whole draft class is looking really, really bad, which contributes to a Caden Wallace and Layden Robinson and Javan Baker, and they already traded Joe Milton. They might have one player from a draft 15 months ago. None of this matters because Mike Vrable is here now and Drake May is going to be playing in a decent offense.

That's what Patriots fans are having to tell themselves. Chad Graf sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you. We will do it again very soon. Thank you for having me. Joining us now, it is our Denver Broncos writer here at the athletic. Nick Cosmiter, Nick, how you doing, man? I'm awesome, Robert. Glad to be with you.

I really wanted to do this with you in particular because I think of all the beatwriters, you took it the most personal that I wasn't coming to Denver to visit training camp. And when we got to a certain point, when I knew we were going to have like 20 of the 25-ish beat I was like, okay, let's just try to get them all. But for you in particular, I felt like I wanted to include you because you seemed genuinely upset that I did not come to Denver to see you when I was going to see everybody else. You just know what a beautiful place it is in the summer. And so I was more just surprised that you didn't find some sort of like concert or reason

to like make sure you were out here. It's just logistically difficult to go from Denver anywhere else. Like you're flying in there and then you're flying somewhere else. And so when you're trying to stack as many as you can together and make the travel logistics as as convenient as possible, Denver is just tough. When I go west to east each year at the beginning of the tour, I always take like a west coast to east coast flight and sleep on the plane so I don't have to miss a day of practice. So that's the trouble is that if you're going to Denver and then somewhere else, it just,

you're probably missing a day. And I went 18 days in a row. And so I just couldn't afford to do that. And so that's why I did not get to Denver. year. It has nothing to do with you or how interesting the Broncos are because I think the Broncos are interesting. They have been, they're certainly, they got something percolating. I'll say that that it's different than certainly when you were out here a couple years ago. It's kind of wild how far they've come since then just in terms of how much has changed,

not only culturally, but personnel-wise. I remember going into the last year, I always had this thing where I said, pour every AFC West player out on a table and then draft those players. How long until a Bronco gets picked? Going into last year, you said, all right, Pat Sertan's going to be in the top five of those guys. Quinn Miners will get there pretty soon and then who? And now you look at this roster and you start being like, yeah, I'd take this Bronco here. I'd take this Bronco here. So it's kind of wild just how quickly that has happened. That change has occurred. I think it's a great thing to bring up because when I look at this roster and I was thinking about I wanted to chat with you about.

It's all like nitpicky detail stuff. And that sort of approach is typically what we ascribe to the best rosters in the league. The teams that are the most complete. And that's kind of where I've gotten with the Broncos when it comes to the questions at front of mind as we get toward the end of training camp here. So I'm just going to roll with the things I'm most curious about. And that's sort of the granular stuff about skill position player usage on offense. Like those are the majority of the moves they made on the offensive side of the ball

of this year. They sign Evan Ingram. They draft RJ Harvey in the second round. They draft Pant Bryant in the third round. They bring in J.K. Dobbins. They just trade Devon Valet. And so I just kind of want to sort out in your mind how you think all of that stuff settles. So let's just start with this very famous notorious Joker type role that Sean Payton talks about every two days with this offense with the Broncos. And in his mind, it seems like Evan Ingram was supposed to be that player. So when you look at the way that they've used Evan Ingram so far, in training camp the way that they've talked about him. What role do you see him playing and how does that play into the broader formula they're

trying to chase on offense that they didn't have last year? Well, it was interesting because I was just talking to Austin King, who's in his first year as the tight ends coach, Chicago guy, by the way. And he coached Darren Waller for a time as the Las Vegas or I guess still the Oakland Raiders coach. But he told me like, listen, I can't wait to get to the season. season because they're not really doing everything in training camp necessarily that they're going to do with Evan Ingram.

You've seen glimpses of it here and there. But he really is going to be that big slot guy that this offense has wanted. They had it with valet to a degree, but you can't create the same matchup issues, you know, with a wide receiver there that you can to tie in and then still get another tight end on the field. And that's what I think is going to be different. You're going to see more 12 personnel. You're going to see a little more disguise of running.

game that Sean Payton always wants to get to. And I think that's where you're going to see some of the change. Obviously, this is a team that, you know, about middle of the pack offensively, without having had a tight end threat last year and without having had consistency in the run game, those are the two things that I think they really changed. And with Ingram, there's a lot of familiarity. Davis Webb, the quarterback's coach, obviously, he threw passes to Evan Ingram. They were both part of the 2017 draft class for the Giants.

And so he kind of knows he was able to help Bone Nick say, hey, this is exactly what this guy is going to bring for us. And so I just think some of the continuity there is going to help a lot. That's really interesting. So in your mind, the Velae trade is possible, not solely because of Pat Bryant, which I think has a lot of people have been framing it. But you think it's more about the usage of Evan Ingram and the fact that there might have been a little redundancy between those two guys.

Yeah, I think it's kind of the sum of those things. I think certainly Pat Bryant is almost a little bit of a souped up version of what Devon Velae was bringing you and I think how quickly he's come along. Like if Pat Bryant wasn't ready to play, you know, then you keep six receivers. You have Bryant inactive on game days until you think he's ready. But, but he's just shown clearly that he is ready to go. And so now you're having six receivers potentially on the roster plus the fact that you're going to have Evan Ingram, to your point, Robert, being in that role quite a bit. There did become, you know, they always say there's, you can't have too much of a good thing. Ultimately, the Broncos got there, especially when

then considering the compensation they got back from New Orleans. So we know what Cortland Sutton is. We know how prominent Cortland Sutton is going to be within the offense. When you think about the other past catching roles, do you feel like Pat Bryant becomes that like number two receiver when it comes to routes run targets, usage over guys like Marvin Mimins and Troy Franklin with Evan Ingram in there? Or do you still feel like Pat Bryant is a little bit further down the pecking order and we're

going to see more from Mims and Franklin essentially like in year two as full time offensive players, even though MIMS is in year three. obviously. Yeah, I think that, I think that Brian's role will still kind of take a little while to get there. Troy Franklin, like, if we're just going based on what we have seen day to day in camp, the one thing that has been almost startling to me is just how consistent he has shown up and been a guy. This is a guy who had just a sort of a disaster of a training camp last year. You know, he has said, like, he didn't even know how to get from the huddle to his spots. really it was hard for him to get back from the end of a play, you know, all the way back in the

huddle because he's just used to this high speed Oregon offense where you run your route and then you go right back to line of scrimmage, look to the sideline, get your one or two cues, and then you're off. It was such a different experience living in Sean Peyton's offensive world that it took this time and it's just like a 180 for him. And, you know, he was, it was funny, he got open last year a lot, but he got open into the wrong spot. And that's why he.

Now he's open in the wrong. right spot and you're just seeing, you're just seeing a real breakthrough. And, you know, it's happened in the preseason. It's happened in training camp. Obviously, he has to take it into the game. We have to see it at that point. But, man, if we're just going based on what we've seen to this point, I think Franklin can be, has the opportunity to be kind of that number two guy for them.

And do you think the MIMS is going to be more of like an actual offensive player this year as opposed to like the very specific usage we saw last year? Like, is it just going to be a more well-rounded role for him potentially? I think so. I think that's what they're trying to do. you know, I talked to him a little bit near the start of training camp and, you know, there was sort of a mutual desire, you know, when OTAs began both from him and then the team itself to say like, yeah, we want to get you into a little bit more of a versatile role in terms of like, you know, expanding your route tree, being able to to move you around into different spots and not just be kind of this, you know, gadget guy that's going to, you know, be in the backfield as much as that worked. And you saw, you started to see it a little bit, you know, the Cincinnati game, for example, where, you know, he's, you know, He's going up and catching passes in the end zone and he's becoming more of like a, you know, middle of the field weapon. I think they're going to continue to grow that.

And where he benefits, obviously, is when you're having Evan Ingram and J.K. Dobbins and R.J. Harvey Harvey, like, being in that inner triangle of the field in a way that they didn't really have last year, I just think that's going to open Marvin Mims. It's going to be harder to commit resources, I think, defensively, you know, to have, to be guarding him and Franklin deep and then also have what you have to deal with in the. middle of the field, you know, I think they're going to be able to put a little more stress on defenses this year. How do you think that running backroom shakes out? Do you think RJ Harvey is going to be the focal point of this with J.K. Dobbins being somebody that spells him, is J.K. Dobbins is going to take a majority of the work with RJ Harvey kind of being a change of pace guy? Like, what does that look like over the course of the season in your mind? Yeah, it's a great question. And to be frank, I still don't fully know. I mean, those two guys have rotated somewhat evenly,

though I would say that R.J. Harvey has gotten a little bit more of the work. And part of that is I think they've been cognizant of having some maintenance with J.K. Dobbins. Obviously, this is a guy that's dealt with injuries throughout the year. They didn't sign him until June. And so I think they're kind of slow playing that a little bit. I think that he might start the year as sort of the lead back, but they're going to have a hard time keeping R.J. Harvey off the field. And they've really used him in a lot of ways during camp already. He's had significant action in the preseason. And so I think they're going to be a 1A, 1B, which certainly fantasy owners are not going

to love to hear right now. But I think it's going to evolve. To be honest, I don't think they fully know what the exact rotation is going to look like. But I think they do know or certainly hope that Bo Nix doesn't lead this team in rushing six out of 18 games. Speaking of Bo Nix, obviously you go from year one to year two, showed a lot of good things last year, either from the stuff you've watched in training camp or what you've heard from Bo and the coaching staff, what do you think are the areas that he's either focused on the most

going from year one to year two and just the spots where he's like, all right, this is where the most improvement needs to come for me if this offense and I are going to take the next step. Yeah, it's great question. I think one of the things I talk, the coaching staff has talked about a little bit is that, you know, Bo Nix, this is the first time since high school that he's been in the same offensive system in back-to-back years. It never happened for him at Auburn. It never happened for him at Oregon. It's incredible because he was in college for 12 years. And the fact that he never had the same offense tiers in a row is amazing. Yeah, you would think that he had, you know, he had become

almost a tenured college professor and yet still had never had the same, the curriculum two years in a row. So there is benefit in that where they're starting to see it as like, he's done in the huddle faster. And I was talking to Davis Webb the other day. It's like he's able to have these kind of micro conversations with, you know, a running back or or a tackle about different keys that they need to make when they get to the line of scrimmage. We have seen that operation come faster. And I think that's going to allow him to, you know, have some solves for some of the things that maybe he did in a year ago.

Look, he ran the ball 92 times last year and it was a weapon for them. But, but a lot of times it was sort of this, you know, bright glass in case of emergency kind of thing. And there were a lot of emergencies because they weren't together. the way that they needed to be at the line of scrimmage. I just think there's going to be more competency with how they're addressing the defense, how they're making checks, even being able to kind of switch up his cadence a little bit more, which wasn't necessarily a weapon for him last year.

I think those are kind of the micro things. You talked about it like granular stuff that I think that they're going to be able to do a better job of this year. When I look at the defense, I don't really know what my questions are. Like the moves that they made this offseason are the moves that you'd want them to make. And I think that's why so many people have responded positively to those moves. When you watch the Denver defense last year, obviously, it's just a havoc creating group up front. You have the defensive player of the year at corner and weaponizing him in all the ways that they were able to.

What I said going in even to free agency, the things I wanted the Broncos to do this spring were add a little bit of explosiveness in poppity of the tight end or the running back spots in order to add another dimension to the offense there. And then I wanted ass kickers in the middle of the defense. what I wanted. Well, that's what they did. Like, that's what Greenlaw and Hufanga are. And so when you're looking at the defense, what are the things you still need to have answered at this point? Because it's not so obvious to me as somebody that's looking at it from like a 50,000 foot view. Yeah, it's, it's like the, it's a boring answer, but literally it's the only thing that we've been able to kind of come up with, because we have that conversation here all the time is like how in any way does this go wrong? And really, the injury thing, right? Like Greenlaw and,

all know who funga have both had their injury issues if if they're if they're not healthy but the thing is here is like if they're not healthy what you're falling back on now is is then guys who started for a defense last year that led the league in EPA per defensive snap so like this this like justin strenad started last year now he's a backup p j lock was your starting safety now now he's coming in you know one of one of the issues they had last year late in the year was riley moss goes down comes back still isn't fully healthy and and and And they have some tough matchups against the Chargers and the Bengals and have some breakdowns in the secondary. Well, they drafted Jada Baron in the first round as a guy who's certainly a talent influx who can play nickel, who could play outside, probably could even play safety.

And so, and then you have a guy like Chris Abrams Drain, who in his second year, he's kind of like the Troy Franklin on the defensive side has looked really good in camp. And so, yeah, they just have, they're clearly deeper. And so now it's like, well, do they get injured? that's something you have to watch but they're also more able to withstand injuries now so there's just not a lot you can point to and say I'm really I'm really worried about

that you know that they'd like to get Nick Benino's contract extension done and have some of that feel good going into the season but yeah there's there's just not a lot that you're that you're super concerned about it's you know can Vance Joseph dial up the right things at the right time you know in the red zone and big matchups but yeah this unit should be really good

I really appreciate how proactive they've been at preventing problems on that side of the ball. Even when you look at them getting out in front of some of these contracts, whether it's Zach Allen bringing back DJ Jones, the John Flanker-Myers trade in and of itself probably isn't something we talk enough about and what it's done to that overall rotation. And like you just said, kind of building in redundancies with a couple of the position groups on defense.

I don't think you and I have talked about this since the draft. And so I'm just curious. When you look at this roster, I feel like, obviously the address running back in the second round, I was wondering, again, just kind of building into the future because I wasn't sure about Zach Allen, whether they'd go into your defensive line, bringing back Zach Allen kind of makes that less of a need. But why did they think Corner was the right spot for them to go in the first round, considering

the fact that Jaquan McMillians actually played some decent football for them over the last couple years? Yeah, he has. And I think the way that they have said it talking to, you know, to Vance Joseph, obviously his cousin coached Jade Barron at Texas. he was his position coach Terry Joseph for for a couple of years. So they really had an infatuation with him as a player. And I think one thing that they wanted was they still wanted a little bit more of a positional flex.

And now what you can do, people have been looking at it like, is this a nickel battle between McMillan and Jaday Barron? And I think it is. But I also think both of them are going to play there. And they're also going to be playing a lot more 6db because both those guys can tackle. They're really good tacklers. And so I think they felt like they needed to be a little bit more versatile in terms of their their personnel packages defensively. So I think you're going to be able to see them have the opportunity to play with some 6db stuff, even on, you know, potential rundowns where they just have a few more solves for what offenses are trying to do. And then with PJ Locke being there as somebody who's played a lot of football for them, do you think they'll use some more three safety stuff in certain packages too with one of those nickel guys off the field?

That feels like something that's available to them now because of the amount of bodies they have in the. that safety room. Yeah, and experienced, experienced players. Like, that is something that I think that we can see at times. Like, they just have a lot of like mix, mix and match pieces that they can use. And we've already kind of seen glimpses of that. You know, PJ Locke, the other thing, too, wasn't really healthy last year. He had this back injury that he, he went and had a, you know, a surgery on this offseason and says he feels a hundred times better. So, so that, another thing, again, that they can throw at defense, our throw at offenses that they didn't have a year ago.

Is there a world where their best three corners are Pat Sertan, Judi Baron outside, and McMill inside, with Riley Moss not being a part of that rotation? Or do you feel like with him back healthy, he's going to be in the mix? I think this year he's going to be in the mix. What I do think they want to do is they want to give Jada Baron opportunities to play outside. Like Sean Payton talked about that a little bit. The division is inside with outside flex. And in the preseason, we've seen them put Barron out there quite a bit.

You know, the question for me becomes if Pat Sartan or Riley Moss go down at any point for any kind of period of time, do they put Baron outside? Is that Chris Abrams drain that they bring in there? I think we don't yet have a full picture of where they ultimately want Barron to land. But I think right now, I do think that it's Sartan, it's Moss. and then it's kind of like, you know, up for grabs. There are some things Barron still has to show. Like he's a little bit undersized.

So they still want to see his growth with the physicality of outside receivers. You know, that's something that he has to continue to build on. So I think right now Moss is no doubt they're number two outside corner. Okay. And really liked a lot of what they got from him last year. He's had a really good training camp. And they were worse off when he wasn't on the field last year. So I think they feel really good about those two guys outside.

the fact that we're at this level of detail, I think just speaks to where this team is right now. I think that's kind of how I wanted to wrap this up. Like when they talk about goals this year, when they talk about best case scenarios and they talk about what they're trying to achieve ambitions, is this a team that's like openly kind of thinking we're a Super Bowl contender right now? Is that the vibe that you get from what training camp has looked like? Yeah, it definitely is. And again, yeah, not just even in like what they've said because we know Sean Payton told, you know, Charles Robinson, look, I've had six teams in New Orleans that I thought had a chance to win the Super Bowl.

Obviously, only one of them actually won it. But there was a number of those teams that got deep and had the opportunity to get there. He's like, I feel that way about this Denver team, obviously the first time in the three years he's been here that he's felt that way. And look, part of that comes from, they've played the Chiefs really tough the last, you know, two years. They've won two of those games that, you know, they lost another one on a last second field goal block. you know, they think they're right there and have a chance to win this division. And if you do that, you know, now you have the home game, you have the opportunity. That's what they do believe.

Now, from the outside, what we still have to see is we have to see you beat elite teams. Lost in the Chargers twice last year. Their one win against the Chiefs last year was when they rested starters, you know, didn't beat the Bengals late, you know, lost to the Ravens, lost to the bills in the playoffs. Like they've got to be able to, I think they need some of those early matchups like Chargers in week three, for example. can you go win that game and then and kind of have that demonstrated belief that, yeah, we're tangling with the best teams in this league.

That's the next step that they have to take. The last thing I'll ask you, is there like a detail or a question that I didn't ask that has been something that you guys on the beat are kicking around and that's at front of mind for you? Am I missing anything? Not really. I think you hit it on the head when you said we're talking granular stuff. I mean, we're sitting here, you know, at practice being like, who's this, who's the sixth safety on this team?

And it's, it's just kind of where they've gotten and kind of going back to what I said at the beginning, it really is somewhat of a kind of stunning place that they, that they've been able to do this that quickly. I mean, stuff like you said, John Franklin Myers goes under the radar when they get them on draft day a couple of years ago. And he and Zach Allen have formed one of the better DN duos in the league. And so I just think they've been able to do that really quickly. And the other thing I'd put on it is that, you know, George Payton's drafting has really sort of played out here. Like four of his first eight draft picks, Quinn Miners, Pat Sertan, Quinn Miners, Jonathan Cooper and then Nick Benito the following years are going to be guys who get to second contracts.

Like, been able to draft core players, even going back to before Sean Payton got here, in a way that they just weren't doing during that like nine-year lull where in the post paid manning desert. I guess the only thing I would bring up that we haven't talked about is that this offensive line was so healthy last year. And so if that kind of comes back to Earth a little bit, they have not really built in a ton of depth with like recent mid-round picks. So that's like one of the small areas of like relative weakness I think you could point out.

Like if we, if Quinn Miners misses six games this year, that's just not something they had to deal with last year. And obviously he might be the best red guard in the league. let's say even if Ben Powers misses six games, are they in a spot to be as good up front if they're having to dig into their depth? I think that's one, but again,

that's such a nitpicky question, but it's one thing that I would bring up that we have not talked about yet. Yeah, and that, especially interior depth, I think is something of a question mark because you're right, they have not drafted,

they have not drafted a tackle in the draft at all since taking Garrett Bowles back in 2017. They've only signed undrafted, undrafted guys. They've obviously brought in free agents. At tackle, they had Alex Palchewski fill in for Mike McClintchie last year when he went down early in the season and did a really good job.

Like, he performed really, I didn't give up a sack in his three starts. And they really like his development. I think they're more, yeah, they're better at tackle a little more able to withstand that, especially in McGlinchy spot. But interior play, yeah, if they're to lose Quinn Miners or Ben Powers, it's, you know, Alex Forsyth, it's guys that just don't have a lot of experience. And then they lost Nick Gargulo, who was, you know, maybe that next guy, a seventh round pick a couple years ago to an ACL tear in the second preseason game. So that is one area where you say, yeah, we need that to stay healthy.

Because really for the last two years, they've been very, they have had a lot of continuity at front. Yeah. And again, this is stuff where people are going to say, well, every team is like this. But when you're trying to win the Super Bowl, when you're trying to be among the best teams in the league, this is the depth and the granularity that you start getting to because it's like you have. have to start thinking about if things go wrong, how good can we still be? And it's very funny that we are already in that position with the Broncos team that I don't think anybody knew what to make of a couple years ago. Nick Cosmiter, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Great to chat with you. We will do it again very soon. All right, Robert. Thanks a lot.

All right. That's it. Thank you so much to Jordan, to Alec, to Nick, to Chad, and to all of the beatwriters that we got to visit with over the last month or so. We have a unique setup here at the athletic where we have so many people covering these teams day to day in depth and just understand how they act, why they do the things that they do, where some of the bodies are buried here when it comes to the issues these teams might have. And I think it's just great perspective. And I really enjoyed being able to provide that for you guys for a little weekend casual listening over the last month or so. So appreciate everyone who tuned in to these shows from now until the end of next week, it's all division previews all the time.

If you've missed any of the ones we've already released, we have done the AFC East, the NFC East, and the NFC South. We are going to have five division previews next week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday, Friday. And then we will get into some awards talk and do some right on the eve of the season talk and content the following week after Labor Day. So really looking forward to that. Hope you guys are as well. We'll talk to you very soon.