The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - TAFS Goes Camping, Vol. 1: Rams, Chargers and Cowboys

Episode Date: July 29, 2023

Robert Mays is spending training camp on the road, visiting with as many teams as he can before the season begins. Every Saturday, we'll bring to you discussions with The Athletic beat writers that Robert had over the previous week in his camp stops. In Volume 1 of TAFS Goes Camping, Robert visits with Rams beat writer Jourdan Rodrigue, Chargers beat writer Daniel Popper, and Cowboys beat writer Jon Machota.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Jourdan on Twitter: @JourdanRodrigueFollow Daniel on Twitter: @danielrpopperFollow Jon on Twitter: @jonmachotaSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/MAYS and get on your way to being your best self.The Football 100, the definitive ranking of the NFL’s best 100 players of all time, goes on sale this fall. Pre-order it here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Like I've mentioned a couple different times, on Saturdays throughout training camp, we're going to be doing some camp notebooks for my current training camp tour.

First stop, first set of stops is that on the West Coast in L.A. and Oxnard, California, visited with the Rams, the Chargers, and the Cowboys, and had some great conversations with our writers who cover all three of those teams. Jordan Rodriguez covers the Rams for us, Daniel Popper who covers the Chargers and John Moshota who covers the Cowboys. Just a great time to visit with the people who know these teams really well.

I love doing this trip every year. I love checking in with all of these franchises that you get to visit. And it's just such a good download of information and such a good reset. And I just kind of wanted you guys to have some insight into what that feels like, these stops that I make during this stretch. And here we go. This is the first one. We're going to have a bunch of these coming your way.

So please enjoy our conversations with our three wonderful beatwriters. The Athletic. Joining us now, it is our Rams writer at The Athletic and the creator, reporter, host of the Play Callers, our wonderful narrative podcast series that ran on the Athletic Football Show last month earlier this month. If you have not listened to it, I highly encourage you to go check it out. It's Jordan Roderick. Jordan, how are you?

I'm great, Robert. I am learning names, learning faces. You know, got a checklist on a printout paper roster just to make extra sure. I'm getting a handle on the 40 rookies on the Rams roster right now. Doing great. It's a fascinating time when we were watching them practice yesterday. And I'm looking at the defensive backfield. I'm like, oh, yeah, Russ Yeast and Kobe Duran and just all these guys whose names you've heard once or twice.

But now are starters for the Los Angeles Rams. It is a really interesting time for an organization in transition. But here's where I wanted to start. I was at practice yesterday. And my takeaway after watching them, watching 11 on 11th at the end of practice, watching even individual drills early on in the practice was the vibes here feel fucking immaculate. For a team with a six and a half over under, for a team that is projected to be one of the worst in the NFL, has this roster decidedly in transition.

My takeaway was the energy was fantastic on so many different levels. And I'm just wondering, am I, have I not watched a football practice in a while? But after practice ends, the first thing Sean McVeigh said to the team was, the energy was fucking great today. And I wanted to use that as a springboard because I, feel like kind of the emotions and the vibes in general around this team are one of the most important things to consider in ways that you might not for another NFL franchise, considering everything that's happened with them over the last six months. Yeah, I think, and thank you for plugging

play callers, because I think if you listen to that series, you'll really have a more full understanding of these teams often look like the mental state the head coach is in, right? That's what getting at. Yeah, it's very true of, of. all of those main characters in that series, and it's certainly true of Sean McBay and the Rams. It's not just you. It's not just that the sun is shining all the time in Los Angeles. It's not just that, you know, the grass is beautiful and the playing surface is perfect. It's not just any of those things.

It was like that in OTAs, too, where the energy was really high. Some of that is by design because of the way that they're now structuring practice. They're allowing the, even in installs, especially. the defense to sort of get off the ground a little bit more because it is such a young group that has so far to go in so short of time and will keep neat like be probably pretty rough even into the season and needs to continue to obviously build those steps but also the coaching staff Sean has coaches he really likes to be around he went out and hired a bunch of new coaches this off season that contributes to the energy but there's a general um I think weightlessness in some ways

when you understand that the expectations have dramatically changed for what you can do, and you're now not just living in proof that you can contend, which is its own unique space that very few people ever exist in, let alone for five years. But now you are operating in a space where nobody really cares if you succeed or fail. Nobody thinks she will succeed. So why not go for it? And so that's kind of what you're feeling and certainly what is permeating.

I agree with you. I mean, I felt it every single day of OTAs and certainly every single day now, even on days where the technique isn't there, even on days where there are mistakes. And yesterday it was one of those days. There were a lot of mistakes and balls on the ground, things like that. But still, the energy was really, really high. I think that's really fascinating because this was a team that the energy could not have been more opposite. I'm there every single day. And obviously I wrote a lot about it.

Like, last year through basically week one onward, the energy could not. not have been more opposite around this team than what it is right now. I feel comfortable saying this because Sean said this to you. After the Super Bowl, he thought that it would complete him. He thought that there would be some moment where his life would feel like he had accomplished everything he'd wanted to accomplish. And that didn't happen. There was an emptiness that kind of comes with that.

I think that after last season, when they were holding everything so tight, the expectations and they were really white knuckling it. And after that season ended, I feel like there's been kind of a reset of, what am I going to be day to day? And that's Sean and then what the football team looks like. And some of the people that they hired, I thought it was so fascinating the choices that they made. And two people I would kind of zone in on are Nick Cayley, the tight ends coach and Ryan Wendell, their new offensive line coach. Nick Cayley comes from New England.

And Sean said something to you for play callers that I really honed in on. He said, I have so much respect for Bill Belichick and the discipline it takes to start over every single year and start yourself an new and really have that creative energy over and over. over and over again. And I don't think it's an accident that he went out and sought out some of those people who live that New England life and were those people that just every day you get back to work. And that's what Nick Cayley was. He's a position coach. That's what he's been in New England for years. Ryan Wendell played in New England for years as an offensive lineman. He understands that culture. I talked to Ryan yesterday and you can just feel the Belichick in him because we were we were talking about, he's a succinct man. Yeah. It's even some of the some of the Belichickisms. We're talking about the

offensive line and some of the things they did in the run game last year. And the first thing out of his mouth was, well, that was last year. This is a different team that was this year. And I just don't think that's an accident. I think that this entire organization and Sean specifically really are trying to get back to this idea of finding purpose in this stuff every single day and finding that energy every single day. And that can sound kumbaya kind of bullshit. But I do think in this specific instance, it does matter for what this team expects of itself. And then to an extension of that what people should expect of this team. Yeah. And honestly, okay, be bullshit. That's fine. That's the thing. That's the thing. What I think people, the fatal flaw would people

analyze this team and it often goes laughed at or overlooked or scoffed at is, yeah, they're actually going to show you how they are. They're actually going to show you what they think is possible and they're actually going to show you what really is happening right out in front of you because, again, are a team that lives and dies by the energy of Sean McVay, something that he came to such a stark realization with last year and clear steps, as you noted, to revert back to some of his fundamental core values of why he wanted to be a coach. Again, starting with the coaches that he has now put around himself, you know, Nick Cayley, I hope I'm not embarrassing him by saying this. I don't think so unless, you know, we've got some music takes on here. But like, Nick Cayley told

me, you know, during the draft that like, you know, he's a guy who he's in California. He so appreciated everything about his time in New England and what he learned and everything. But he's in California now and he drives to work every morning at 530 with the windows down, blasting Dave Matthews band and singing, singing, like at the top of his lungs. Not that he wasn't doing that in New England, obviously, but like, that's how he's, he's, he's happy to be around somebody who he, he feels like he's contributing to the rise of the energy. Ryan Wendell drew such high praise from people across the league after he was hired who reached out to me to talk about what an impact he could make.

You know, Aubrey Pleasant coming back. Yeah, you felt that yesterday. Yeah, a young, young group that really needs to develop quickly and also needs to bring it every single day. Aubrey Pleasant is a coach who is really good at that. He's a defense of backs coach, which is particularly notable considering the youth of that group. And he was there in Los Angeles previously, went to Detroit for a couple of years. Now he's back.

And he's just a really high energy guy. Yeah. And it's very clear that these steps that are in place, like, you know, nobody knows how good or terrible the Rams are going to be this year. I think that's fine. That's all right. Because what Sean McVeigh has had to do and what he's been pretty open about is he's had to reframe the idea of what success. looks like when it is not physically possible for your roster to be in the same place that your ability is as a head coach in terms of wins and losses. Now, you have to go back and reprove your ability as a

teacher. And there's no other choice. The way this roster is built, it's almost like, you know, Sean McVeigh, fully understanding, obviously, and deciding to come back, like what this roster was going to look like. You know, there's almost, you have no other choice, but to be process oriented, because if you're not hyper process oriented, like as in I was telling you yesterday, Robert, reteaching the first step of the first drill of the first day of special teams install, which you haven't had to do since like 2018, you know, you have to be process oriented. I mean, this dude even got shirts printed out for all of his staff that say model the way because Sean McVeigh can't just say something fucking simple and like say actions speak louder than words,

you know, it's got to be something different. I also think it helps for him to see it. He's going to see that every single day. He sees it every single day. Model the way. Model the way. And you know what? We laugh, but it's, it's serious. You know, it is absolutely serious because this team goes as he goes and him kind of diving back into that tunnel of coaching cliche being where his feet are. You know, anyone can ha ha ha the energy and, you know, say, oh, you're in L.A. Where's your crystal? You know what I mean? But like that's, but the thing is is you guys have to understand. And you know, Robert, because you feel it every time you're out here, like you see it. You have to think about that with this team. Scheme, yes, philosophy, yes, coaches, injuries, all those things. Absolutely. It's still football. But like, that sort of tone setting is key and crucial to how, not necessarily how this team's record will look this year, but how it will continue to take the steps in this sort of whatever the hell they want to call it, rebuild, remodel, whatever. Offsetting the immaculate vibes in so many other areas yesterday is the

quarterback coming out publicly and refuting what Kevin Demoff, the COO said last week that they did not ask him to restructure his contract. So that was a bit of news on day one of training camp. What do you make of that moment of Matthew Stafford kind of contradicting what was previously out there and saying, yeah, there was a conversation on that level with the organization this year? Is there a messiness that comes with that that you're worried about? I think that it's more so we're probably talking about semantics that we don't know about. Certainly, you know, try as you might as a reporter on the ground. They don't have to tell you things and they also don't have to be completely open about what the conversations were or the direction they went.

But I did think it was, I think if you're talking about a team that's trying to all pull in the same direction and you're talking about a team. that's, again, trying to go back into a pretty unified tunnel. I mean, Sean McVeigh is having all the players ride the buses together to and from practice instead of some of them being able to drive their own personal cars and all of that stuff, just small things where you're building that camaraderie and you're building those things. When you're looking at the front office level, coaching staff, you're looking at all the things that are not happening on the field, I think you just want to make sure that you're not having a messaging problem.

because that's kind of what it felt like. It sort of felt like to me that, you know, the CEO came out and said these things publicly. And it was striking that he was so public about what, you know, what he said those conversations were or were not. And so I think that you want to make sure that everybody in the building is communicating and on the same page because that seemed like a messaging issue to me. And it seemed like that's maybe something that needs to have. have, they need to have a real conversation about is, is everyone actually on the same page? Because when you have a situation like that happened on the first day of training camp, and everything else is, everyone's feeling good around you, and all of a sudden there's this

little spike in the system in terms of, you know, that messaging specifically, I think you need to make sure that the quarterback, the coach, and the person who runs the team all on the same page, right? I mean, that's kind of significant, especially as we talk about Matthew Stafford's age, his injury history, his contract, talking about all these things moving forward, what that 2024 class looks like. Like I said, you need to be sure you're on the same page with your quarterback. Talking about his injury history, that's where I wanted to take this next. On a simple level, how healthy is he right now compared to how healthy he was at this time last year. Yeah, and you notice, Robert, the only thing we can go off of is how healthy he says he is, right?

because for 15 years now, Matthew Stafford has been the I'm fine, I'm okay guy. So until we see what it actually looks like on the field when he is able to get hit, and obviously they're hoping he takes way less than the McVe era record, 63 hits in nine games that he took last season, certainly hoping he avoids such catastrophic injuries that he did experience. But all you really know is what it will look like, how the arm is, you know, when you're in week six, week seven. That's when we'll really know, is he healthy or not, because right now he looks great. Right now, I mean, he's also running around,

which, you know, if people made a, if people on Twitter made a thing this, this offseason about, he looks like he's lost weight, those types of things. Well, he's moving around quite a bit in practice. He's throwing it on the run. He's doing those types of things. He looks very, to kind of laugh about this, he looks very Matthew Staffordy. He comes in, he takes command where he needs to. He is whipping the ball around. He's reasserting that connection with Tyler Higby, with Van Jefferson, with Cooper Cup, who missed OTAs while he's still recovering from that high ankle sprain.

So all of those things, you know, he looks normal and he's taking a full workload. But again, with the caveat that comes with a quarterback of his age and also specifically, not even so much his age as his injury history, you always are. asking that question. You're always looking for any little change, any deviation in that standard that he's set, because right now it's about as stable as it could look. Here's why I asked this question. I was looking at a projection for them in terms of their offensive ranking. If you look at Vegas lines, I believe it was at 11, 10 from Establish the run was tweeting this out yesterday. They're projected from Vegas to finish with like

the 27th scoring offense in the NFL. I think the risk of a Matthew Stafford injury is probably baked into that number considering his history. But if he stays healthy, I can't imagine them being that bad on offense. I think that we might be overselling or weighing too much what happened last year, the catastrophic outcome that happened last year, his injury, the offensive line slew of injuries that happened, Cooper Cups injury. I know they're thin on offense, but I still feel like there are plenty of timelines with this team this year where they're pretty good offensively, even if they're very, very young

on defense. Am I out of line in thinking that? Well, I mean, it's their whole strategy, right, of this year is to try to get their offense back to scoring points. And by nature of scoring points, you will lift your defense. And so I think that that's, you know, that's a pretty simple yet they've showed you their work along the way, right? They totally gutted their defense and then they beefed up their offense. And, you know, this group, I think as long as they stay healthy, their offensive line will be better. They beefed up their offensive line.

Yeah. Well, there's no, it can't get worse, right? I mean, it always can get worse, but it can't get worse, right? Logically. And so I think that, you know, but even without the catastrophic slu of injuries, a 71 games lost to injury along the offensive line for second and third string players who you'd never seen in your life before starting for this team, like you also, even if those things didn't happen, they still made changes to that group.

And you'll see those changes, I think, my, I believe. reflective in some of the way that they deploy their run game, the way that they deploy their past game with some of the abilities. They're bigger up front, it seems like to me. And also, you know, the return of Matthew Stafford having a full and healthy offseason, which he has not had. Even in 2021 when he came in, he bashed his thumb on an alignment's helmet and was out for a little bit of time, too. So, you know, this is the first full off season he's had as a Las Angeles Ram. I think that's significant. Cooper Cup being healthy, if he can stay healthy, is significant. And, you know, other players that are, were forced into situations and scenarios where they, in a top heavy

roster, they otherwise would not get playing time, would not get reps. They need those depth players to now start bridging the gap. They don't need them to be Cooper Cups, but they need them to at least fill that vast space between like the starters and the reserves when it was really only ever under Sean McVey over the last several years, only ever the core veterans who are getting the bulk of those minutes. Closing that gap, I think, will also, other than hell, make a huge difference in this offense this year. It feels like they understand in talking to people over the last couple days that the running game just needs to be better. They need to focus on it more. If teams are going to play them a certain way defensively, and this is going to be a theme all season with a lot of these teams

who throw the ball all over the yard. Teams are going to dare us to run. If we can't do it, we're going to be in trouble. And I think they're very conscious of that. And it's going to be a focus. and the size that they've added on the offensive line, tweaking the offensive line, and just understanding who they need to be offensively, if they can click that run game into place, even if they're a little bit thin of receiver, it's Van Jefferson,

some more role players and everything else behind Cooper Cup. Again, I still feel like if everybody stays healthy, this offense is going to be better than people expected to be. Sean McVeigh is still a very good coach. Matthew Stafford is still a very capable quarterback. Cooper Cup is two years removed from the best wide receiver season or one of them that we've ever seen. So projecting this team to be a decidedly below average

offense. I think that we've just taken it a little bit too far. Yeah. And like, I hate to say this caveat over and over again, but it's becoming like my ringtone at this point. It all comes down to health, as you know. One thing you mentioned is I think, I don't think enough is being made, which we talk about it all the time, but in terms of like the external narratives about this team, I don't think enough is being made about the caliber of coaches that they have and how they are, it just feels different in terms of they are all on the same page. They are all contributing in ways that are needed. There's a sense, when things get tough,

there's still going to have to be forward progress in terms of presentation of ideas, in terms of collaboration. That does start with Sean McVeigh. It starts with him, again, revisiting his process and not sort of going into a mechanical mode and more so being connected with his staff the entire season, even if things go wrong.

But I think that, that makes such a huge difference when you're talking about, like I said, one of the most important things that will make this offense go from the idea of getting back on track to actually tangible is what happens on those assistant coaching levels where you're watching the run game close the gap. You're watching the players underneath Cooper Cup try to close the gap a little bit more. So it's not just a force feed of Matthew to Cooper every single game where you can now figure out ways to keep the team so one dimensional. And with the run, game. I mean, some of it goes, a lot of it is going to be scheme, a lot of it's going to be

strategy, game planning. Some of it's going to be play caller too, because I think that Sean McVeigh will be the first to admit that he often, because of his own lack of necessary, I think, trust or faith or because of injuries, you know, Darrell Henderson was on a pitch count for basically the entire time he was in L.A. and rotating with Cam Acres, you know, those types of things make you not trust your run game like you should, like you need to be able to depend on it. Andrew Whitworth always says, when in doubt, just run it at them. And that's something that they need to simplify in this regard, that philosophy of, you know what, when all else fails, you know you can run the football. That's what makes some of the other branches of this coaching tree, I think, so successful

and so consistent here over here, where we've seen, you know, in contrast, Shaw McPhay's run game all but vanish over the last two years. But I think it's also in the play caller. You have to make sure that you're understanding what rhythm your players need to get into, even when you want to try for the more explosive pass play or maybe the more efficient pass play. There's also a balance and a counterbalance of what ripple effect will that then have the next series. How will they play us differently the next series if all I'm doing is throwing the ball and there's no threat of the run? I think that that's a balance that they're refining and rediscovering. And again, it goes hand in hand with Sean McVeigh, sort of revisiting his entire process this offseason.

The one name we haven't brought up, he talked about the assistant coaching level. Michael Fleur is now the offensive coordinator for this team. They're very excited about him and think that that's a guy that Sean wanted and the help he's going to get from that role within the coaching staff is probably better than it has been or was last year. I think that's important. On defense, very simple question. We know they're young.

We know they're kind of going to be holding on for dear life in a lot of different ways. what is one area that you are really worried about? Like the lack of personnel is seriously a concern. And what's one area where they might surprise us a little bit, personnel-wise? Worries, I'm going to do more than one because I think that's what needs to happen here. So they have mostly short corners. They went out and got Akello Witherspoon, who you saw him while we were talking about it. I won't share your funny comment about like, oh, Kelle Wetherspoon is here.

You can share it. I didn't know. I didn't want to blow you up like that. You're like, well, because obviously there's so many new faces on this team. It's been such a churn. And you're like, oh, a Keller Witherspins here, which is so, it totally encapsulates the what has happened to this defense over the last couple of months is, oh, all of a sudden a Keller Witherspoons here and a bunch of young players and rookies. But the size difference is so clear. He's six two. And among the players who will probably be getting starting reps, he's the only corner. above six feet on this roster among those potential key role players right now. So that's a worry for me. And then also, you know, the edge rushers, I mean, any defensive line with Aaron Donald, you're going to probably figure it out or else like risk pain of death, right? Maybe. Maybe. You look at this group.

It's all worries. That's a place I would start. I actually, the only place I don't worry is inside linebacker and one of the safeties where Ernest Jones and Jordan Fuller are holding it down. But in terms of, I know, it's wild. But in terms of the edge rushers, I mean, it is Michael Hoyt, who showed exciting stuff, but is learning the position for the first time after being a defensive tackle, leaning out because they ran out of past rushers last season.

And also, by the way, he got some snaps at tight end and fullback and return to kick. So it's like you're learning this edge rushing position for the first time. And so he's the most veteran member of that pass rush right now. They talked about going out and getting a veteran pass rusher, but then they went out and drafted a bunch of outside linebackers, and you've got to see those guys play. You've got to get them on the field. So it's still something they could add later down the road,

but right now they're watching a bunch of really, really young rookie pass rushers, who to me, the defining quality that they all share is speed. They're all plenty fast. It's the technical stuff. It's the physicality. It's perimeter runs. It's knowing what your assignments are and becoming a pro essentially that is going to be the biggest thing. But the rush and coverage is pretty bad when those are your biggest worries and they're pretty equal in terms of the level of worry there.

Yeah, they drafted Byron Young in the third round. They drafted Kobe Turner in the third round. This is a team that wasn't flush with draft capital, obviously. They drafted Steve Veal in the second round. We talked about adding that size to the offensive line. But that's where they focused. They knew they needed defensive line help. They knew they needed offensive line help, and that's where they used the not considerable resources that were available to them this offseason.

So we'll see how it goes. Rahim Morris has his work cut out for him. I anticipate them being a little bit more aggressive on defense than they've been in years past just because why not? Let's play this way. We don't have to worry about giving up 30 points because we need our offensive score 35 to win. So if we can create a splash play here or splash play there, I wouldn't be surprised if that was more of their philosophy. But with the personnel, it's going to be a wild ride over the course of the season. Jordan Roderig, always great to chat with you.

Really appreciate the time. Again, if you guys have not checked out play callers, it is available in its own feed now, wherever you get your podcasts. Highly encourage you to go listen to it. It's five hours of your life. You will learn so much about the history of the NFL, the state of the NFL, and really get a look at the coaches who've kind of defined and shaped the league over the last few years in a way that you never have before. It is a monumental achievement, one that Jordan should be very proud of and one that you guys should definitely check out. Thanks, Robert. I appreciate you having me on.

It was nice to see you yesterday. It was great to see you too. I know. Good luck along all your travels. I know you've got quite a list of trips here, but good luck on all your travels. I'm looking forward to following along. I'll talk to you soon. Joining us now, it is our Chargers writer here at the Athletic, Daniel Popper.

It's good to see you, man. Good to see you as well. What I'm thinking here, we're in the same spot that we do this every year in the bleachers. I think they need to put a plaque right here and make it the ceremonial Robert Mays and Daniel Popper pre-training camp interview bleacher that we're sitting on right now. What do you think about that? We've talked about this a million times on this show over the past several years, but the amount of places and the weird places that I've done

this before. Sitting in the bleachers in the shade with nothing happening in the background is actually a pretty good spot. I will say the Chargers marching band was just playing for the 20 minutes before we just got started. So the timing on that worked out. But as long as I'm not doing it a sweltering car in a parking lot, which I certainly have done before, this is an improvement. And it's beautiful here today. It's a little hot, but that's what you get this time of year. It's summertime.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, I just, I think about every time you open up a podcast and you're like, I'm in a closet in the basement. I'm in a car on the side of the freeway. I'm like, all right, this is going to be a good one. I'm like locked in. It's that time of year, but this is fun. And this is officially training camp stop number one.

Today was the first day of Chargers training camp practice. Obviously, the huge question about this team is what the offense is going to look like under Kellynmore. That was the biggest move that they made this offseason. This is a team that made the playoffs last year, but has like real expectations and I think real demands from ownership to perform to a certain level. Brandon Staley fires Joe Lombardi, a guy he's known for years. I mean, for years and years, he played for him 20 years ago. In 2005, yep.

Moves on, they hire Kellyn Moore, which I think if you had asked Brandon Staling giving him truth serum the day they fired Joe Lombardi, if they thought Kellan Moore would be the guy that they would eventually land on. I don't know if that would have been the case. But you wrote a story about that partnership. what they want to get out of it earlier this week on the athletic. When you were digging into this, when you talked to Brandon, when you talked to Kellan about why they wanted to make this pairing work and what they want to get out of it, what was your biggest takeaway from that? Yeah, the biggest takeaway is Brandon compared it to when Sean McVeigh hired him in 2020, right?

The Rams had a pretty good defense under Wade Phillips. And the year after he got fired 2019, they didn't make the playoffs, but they were top 10 in DVOA. But Sean McVeigh fired Wade Phillips a future hallfamer because he felt like there was a different level his defense could get to. And Brandon feels like he's in a very similar place as Sean McVey was, and that season just on, like what Sean McVey on the opposite side of the ball in defense, Brandon feels the same line offense. There was just a different level to get to. Joe Lombardi wasn't poor. There were obviously a lot of frustrations. You and Nate have talked about this a lot on the pod. They were six in EPA per play over his two seasons. And last year, obviously you have

to factor in the injuries into some of the metrics. But there was just a different level that Brandon felt like the offense could get to, especially with the quarterback, as talented as Justin Herbert, and with these pieces. And that was the, big takeaway is that he felt like, hey, I have to make this decision. Now, a lot of guys in NFL coaching will make the mistake of being too loyal to a fault. That happened with Anthony Lynn here. It was a big reason why his tenure ended up coming to a close. He stuck with George Stewart as special teams coordinator too long, stuck with Gus Bradley. And so the fact that he was willing to see, okay, I can't be loyal to a guy I've known for 20 years. This is not good enough. And I need more.

I need a guy with more mental agility, as Brandon put it. I think that was my biggest takeaway. I mean, some of it is self-serving, though. His job is on the line this year. And I think he probably understands that. I mean, you have to make a move to get where you want to go or there's a chance that he's looking for a new gig after the season is over. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right on it. You know, like there are huge expectations for this team. And it cannot be what it's always been for this team where it's like, oh, StarCore Super Bowl contender. And then your best player gets hurt in the third day training camp. And oh, we're, you know, six and 11, but it was injuries and we're going to keep everybody around, but not. I don't think that shit matters this year. I don't, I don't think

the reasons why the final record is more disappointed than you want it to be actually ends up mattering. If it's disappointing, I think there will probably be changes. Not this time. And I mean, Brandon got to make the changes that he wanted to make to the athletic training staff, you know? And so, like, now it's, I mean, he's gotten everything he could possibly want. I mean, you and Lindsay talked, you know, earlier on a different show about, you know,

the cash spending, right, that they put into his defense. I mean, he's got Khalil Mack. He's got Joey Bosa. He's got Derwin under contract. He's got all the, you know, J.C. Jackson, Sebastian Joseph Day, Morgan Fox up front. You know, he's got a receiver in the first round in Quinn Johnson. Like he's gotten all this stuff that he needs. Everything's there.

Everything's there. And they need to win. They need to win for their place in the market in Los Angeles. Like on a big, broad business level for the organization. Like they need to get a foothold in the market. And the only way to do that, as exciting as they are with Justin, they need to win. And that's it. Like full stop.

Yeah, you don't need to go any more detail than that, you know? In what ways do you feel like the offense should be different under? Kellan Moore. Like, where does the, if we're going to try to get more out of this and there's meat left on the bone, how do you go about picking that meat off the bone? I think it's, it's coaching Justin in a way where he is willing to push the ball downfield more often. If it means putting in harm's way periodically, do it. Because that's not how he's wired. I think we've talked about this before, but like he's a lot more Drew Brees than he is like a Josh Allen or Philip Rivers. You know, like Philip Rivers grew up, you know, idolizing Brett Far.

And that's how he played. I'm going to throw this dang thing down the field. If it gets picked off seven times in a game, who cares? Like, but Justin doesn't operate that way. He is so turnover reverse, and he operates like a robot in terms of his processing. I think it's trying to break some of those habits and be like, hey, you can throw the ball 80 yards in the air. Like, go do it. And if you throw a pick, who cares?

We're going to get more benefit out of that approach philosophically than we are about you being like this surgical underneath guy. Because that's not how, that's not the way to maximize your game. I don't mean to psychoanalyze Justin Herbert here, but let me push back on that a little bit. Everything I've heard about him in my sense of who he is is that he is a pleaser. He wants to do the right thing. And if your emphasis is an offensive coordinator in the structure of the offenses, the right thing is for you to be efficient and get to the right read and you're hammering that over and over and over again, I think that's what he's going to want to accomplish.

And I think you could see that in the way that he played last year. But if your emphasis is an offensive coordinator is, the right thing is for you to create explosive plays and for you to make as many plays as you can with your arm, I think it would be not that far of a jump for him to kind of drift in that direction. 100%. I think we're saying the exact same thing.

It's changing the emphasis. So first off, you change the structure in the system to create more of those opportunities, but then it's also changing the emphasis and the philosophy on a broad level so that he is being coached within that emphasis to like, hey, you know, take those shots. And even said it.

I mean, he was asked just now, like 10 minutes ago, you know, what are your goals this season. Taking shots, first thing out of his mouth. I've never heard him talk about throwing the football that way. So I think like that's where it starts. And then we can get some of the more specifics. I think the run game is going to be different and improved. I think that's going to be a factor into the play action game. I think everything's going to be a lot more more spread out than it was under Joe Lombardi where I mean the condensed splits and the condensed routes and everything was so tight in the middle of the field. I think you're going to see a lot

of differences in those types of areas as well. So I think that if we're trying to build the case for why there will be more explosive plays. I think that having there be more space within the offense is a huge one. You could feel how condensed things were. And this team didn't upgrade in terms of speed this year. Like we thought they need more speed. Do they need somebody you can lift the top off the defense? They don't really have that. For the most part, they added one more big-bodied receiver. The hope is that Quentin Josson can give them more after the catch and there's a more explosive element. But I think stretching defense is horizontally in order to kind of create more more space in the defense that you're seeing. That's one area where you can like, all right, that'll

help us attack in different ways. Yeah, they did not have that yak guy. And I mean, they did, they added Darius Davis out of TCU, more of a kick return or punt returner on your side. But he does have that type of like four three speed. But like with Quinn Johnson, I think everyone had a certain idea going to that draft. Like if the charges are going to go receiver early, it's going to be this burner vertical threat. Or like Jalen Hyatt. Jaywin Hyatt was somebody that was being mocked there. I'm talking about, all right, is that the type of guy they want to go after?

Right. And so I think everyone had a specific idea in their head. And then, but there's two ways to stretch the field. And Brandon has talked about this to me when I was working on the Killen story about what it was sort of going to look like. It's stretching the field vertically and horizontally. Make them, I mean, it's so cliche, but it's like make the defense cover every blade. Right. And so they didn't have.

that guy that could really stretch it horizontally with that type of explosiveness, like a home run explosiveness where if he catches the ball on a dig, on a slant, on a jet sweep even, like he has the potential to turn it into an explosive play. That's what he did best in college. And we were talking about this a little bit today. My concern with him as a prospect is that somebody who's going to look at his frame and say, this is a big body receiver. We're going to use him in traditional big body receiver ways.

Mike Williams is a perfect example. But seeing him as not that, seeing him as somebody who could do damage with the ball in his hands who was a yards after catch monster, that being the archetype for what you're chasing with him, that's exciting. Because I do think that's where he's best. And I actually think that is the skill set that makes the most sense within this offense. Yeah, it's, it was a missing piece. It wasn't the missing piece everyone saw, but it was a missing piece that they went and got. And it does change everything about how it works, right? Like you, you didn't, you know, Mike Williams is not a yak guy. They've gotten a lot more yak out of him than the previous regime was because they had a

a vision for what he could be. I have to shout out wide receivers coach Chris Bedi because he was a big part and sort of creating that vision. A lot of more in break. A lot of smoke grout stuff to get Mike the ball in his hands. But Keenan's not a yak guy. Mike, that's not the primary part of his game. And so they needed somebody that could do that, that could be that difference maker in the yak game. And then, okay, so now you have, if you're doubling Keenan or you're putting your focus on Mike, now you have a guy who can break away and score a touchdown from anywhere on the field running that shallow cross.

And like, that's a difference maker. If you're trying to find more explosives, I think you have to change the way the defenses are playing against you. You look at a lot of the numbers on early downs, which, again, the EPA number you pointed out before. That's six in EPA per play. A lot of that is driven by what they're. did on third down. It's like, fuck it, Justin. You go make something happen.

There's 16th in EPA pro pro pro pro play on first and second, like third on third down. Exactly. It was just just in hero mode. So let's get into how we are more efficient in our early downs. And running the ball is a huge part of that. And, you know, you wrote about this in your piece and even talking to some people here over the last couple days, just felt like they never found themselves in the run game last year.

If you're going to play a lot of cover two, if you're going to play against a lot of cover six, cover eight where teams are keeping two, safety's back, and you're playing against light boxes, you have to hammer people. and they were never able to do that because they never found their footing in that area on offense last year. What would lead you to believe that things could be different this year if defenses are going to continue to play them that way? I mean, on a basic level, they're all pro-left tackles back and looking huge numbers. Good start. Yeah.

Like that was, I mean, the reason they were okay and fine running the ball was because the left side of their line in 2021 and Branden's daily's first season was elite. And you had Rashan Slater. Matt Fowler was really good. And then he had Corey Lindely in the first year of his contract playing at an All-Pro level. And that was the engine. And so you lose Roshan and that changes everything last year. And Fiver took a step back last year. There's a reason he's not on the roster anymore or all that kind of stuff.

How big of a – we're going to get the weeds here. But like, how big of a step back was it individually? Or was it the fact that he lost two All-Pro players playing next to him? I think it's a combination of both. Okay. So then what you have is you're going to be more North-South. That's what Kellan believes in the run game is like – is duo and mid-zone and attack down-h hill between the tackles.

And that's really going to fit their interior guards. You know, like, Jamari Salier is a big body. He's not the best mover, but he's strong. And he can go north-south. And the same thing was Zion Johnson, getting him off the ball and using his strength. I mean, that's going to be the formula in the middle.

And then just simplifying anything, everything. And so for these guys, like, you get into a run game meeting and you're like, okay, like today, right? You sit down for a meeting and Kellan gets up there in front of the offense. And he's like, this is what we do. We are duo and we are mid-zone and this is what we're going to be. And everything comes off of that. And then build everything from that foundation.

We want to get to the outside. We can do our toss cracks and our jet sweeps and whatever. We can throw all the bells and whistles on there. But we will be good at this stuff before we do anything else. And we will have an identity and then we will build everything else off of that. And that's what you're exactly right. That's what was missing last year, right? There was no identity.

And so they then became a designer run team where it was a game plan thing week after week. And that's just not the way you can live in the NFL. And you wonder, okay. well, how does that play and find a more explosive play? I think it's twofold. One, if you start hammering people in the run game and you're changing the way that the boxes look against you and you're making safeties creep down a little bit more,

that allows you to take more shots down the field. That is real. You know, I think that is where there is some value or some validity in this idea that you can run to set up the pass a little bit. If you kind of create that over the course of a game and you make defenses, it's human nature, it's instinct, creep down a little bit more. Can we take some shots over the top?

And secondly, your play action game is where you can find some of these shots, even against some of these coverage that they're going to see. But if you don't have an identity in the run game to build complimentary play action, then you're never going to find those shots down the field. There's going to be a divorce from your run game and the way that you can take play action shots off of it. And if that disconnect is there, it's just one less area where you can try to take shots down the field. Yeah.

And I asked Kellan about this specifically when we sat down back in June like, okay, you know, there's this phrase, marriage of the run in the past. A lot of people the NFL use it. Brandon obviously uses it a bunch. It's fucking legit, though. It's real. No, no, no, 100%. 100%. But like, you know, it's interesting to ask somebody like Helen, like, hey, define that for me. And so part of it is what you're talking about, like schematically linking those things together.

And then part of it, too, is how you're calling it on game day. Like, you have to be thinking ahead. It's a chess match and you are setting these plays up over the course of the game so that you can get to that one call that you feel like is going to hit. But you set it up with a specific run play before. And then you get to it and it's an explosive play on early downs. And like with the play action stuff specifically, like that's a big part in being an efficient early down team is you have to run the ball and you have to, You have to be going to play action. If you're creating those early down explosives on play action,

that's going to raise all of your metrics up and making a much more efficient team overall on early downs. They used a lot of play action last year. They tried to do this stuff. It just didn't feel like the plan had enough cohesion for it to actually be seen through. And then you combine that with all of the injuries. Yes. I'd be remiss to not mention the fact that the quarterback of this team, one that we heard from today, just made a shitload of money.

Anything about this that's surprising, anything about this that's notable. This just kind of feels like the next domino that was going to fall in the quarterback contract world. but as somebody who really has to study the minutia of this, what do you think is notable about the Justin Herbert contract? Yeah, I think the first notable thing from a team perspective is that they were really able to keep the cap hits tolerable and reasonable through like the fourth year of the deal. So it's through 2026.

So this year, no change in cap charge. Next year they saved over 10 million on the projected cap, which is huge because they were heading into the contract, heading into training camp. There were over 60 million over the cap and they got a lot of work to do in that area. And then over the next few years, 37 and 48 million, but it's still a reasonable amount of the cap. It's 13.2% projected in 2025, 15% projected in 2026.

The interesting part is, like Tom Telesco said he does not believe. This is the general manager of the Chargers said he doesn't believe in rookie windows, which is like, okay. But part of the reason is he came up under Bill Polly and worked for 15 seasons in the Colts, and they were paying, paying a lot of money throughout that tenure, and they were able to build really good teams. You know, 2003 he was making like 20% of the cap. They won one Super Bowl.

But they were in contention. I'm just saying. There are areas of those rosters that did hold them back eventually. Absolutely. You can be a contender every single year, but you're going to have one or two spots on defense where you're like, man, we're just holding on for dear life because of what we're paying our quarterback. That reality is a real thing.

100%. Absolutely. But the point I was making, I agree with you, the point I was making is that they do have a guy here who has some experience doing that. Now, it's Tom Telesco going to be here to see that thing through. That's what we'll find out after this season. I mean, the expectations aren't just for Brandon's Daly. Right. And that's, I think, that's an important point to make. It's for everybody involved.

Rookie Windows may be overstated in terms of having the right guy is the most important thing. But eventually you have to make concessions other places. And Tom Cullesco should know, being the GM for an organization that is not cack-rish all the time, that eventually you're going to have to make concessions when you're paying your quarterback $40 million a year against the cap. Absolutely. And then, you know, the other thing is that, you know, if you are going to be a contender, you need somebody playing at the level that Peyton Manning played at for 50 years. Like, Justin, before this content. contract, you know, it was, well, he's developing, can he take the next step? That's all out the window.

Like, you now, once these catpits jump, you have to be like MVP caliber for your organization or your team to be a perennial contender. And that's like, that's just the responsibility that comes with signing the biggest contract than NFL history. And I think that's part of why, even if you're looking at a team that was hovering around the top 10 in offense over the last couple of years, why you need to make a change? Because that's no longer good enough. hovering around the top 10 and being middle of the league in early down efficiency isn't going to work when you just handed your quarterback the biggest contract that the league has ever seen we're spending so much time talking about the offense the offense has been pretty good over the last couple years this is a defensive minded head coach who spent the most cash on a defense in the NFL in 2022 and this team has been average to below average on that side of the ball over the last couple years why is that going to be different why is this why are the results going to be different on that side of the ball than what we've seen in the first two years in their brand stately. I don't know if they're going to be different, but the

argument is that down the stretch of last year and even through the first half against Jacksonville, the charges were playing as well as any defense in the league. Now they did it against really poor competition and really poor quarterbacks like Nick Foles and Indianapolis and Baker Mayfield and with the Rams. But like they did show something. They played well against Miami. There was a stretch where they were really homing, yes. But the one real great performance in there was, was, again,

against the dolphins. And so you saw something there. You saw, especially on the back end of the defense, a certain level of cohesion. And Brandon believes in complexity on defense. And so it takes time for guys to mesh and to figure out how to pass off all these routes on the matchup zone, all this different stuff that you do, all the different types of coverages that you play, all the stuff that goes into it. I think you saw that come together to a degree. Now, what do you think of led to that cohesion? What do you think of the most important factors in that stuff falling in place? I talked to guys last year down the stretch to be like, what happened here?

And I think there's a simplification. There's a natural simplification that sort of happens over the course of a season where you figure out, okay, this is what we do well. This is what our guys can play. And then you hear from the guys and the guys are like, hey, let's throw this thing out. Let's throw this thing out.

Because their approach is like spring and summer, they're throwing everything on the time. Everything you could possibly need over the course of a season. They install and then they shrink over the course of the season. So I think they consolidated at two points. Started playing some more cover to you. And some of the corners really played that really well, Sante and Michael Davis.

And I think you just had better communication and cohesion in terms of passing out some of these routes and some of the, you know, the coverages that they play. And so, like, that's, I think, part of it. The other part of it, too, is, like, he never, Brandon never really got to see that vision materialized. Because Joey got hurt, Joey Bosa got hurt in week three. And that tandem of Kalil Mack and Joey Boso was going to be such a big part of everything that they were going to do. Most of their defensive resources were spent on that decision. Exactly. And so when you lose an all-pro edge rusher and you've,

replace him with Kyle Van Nuoy who thought he was going to be playing inside linebacker, and then all of a sudden that's the switch to edge rusher, and then he hurts his back. And then so basically you have no one on the other side rushing for like eight weeks and there's no pressure. If only somebody could have seen this coming, the lack of edge depth they had heading into last season. Stars and Scrubs, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, listen, I'm not absolving them of anything, but like the fact, if they can

stay healthy, I feel like this is like, okay, I'm like in the Twilight Zone and Groundhog Day. If the defense can stay healthy, then yeah, that's another reason to believe that they can improve. J.C. Jackson is back starting. He was a full participant in practice today even after the pretty devastating injury he had last year. But he wasn't good before he got hurt last season. So how do you see the defensive backfield personnel shaking out with him back and then some of the considerations that you just mentioned about maybe the cohesion that was established last year when he wasn't there and there's been a couple of personnel changes. Yeah. J.C.'s an interesting situation because he was excellent in training camp. Like especially during those two Cowboys joint practices, like he was

balling out. He got the defense. There was none of that confusion that we saw early on in the regular season. And then he just then he had that ankle surgery. I don't know if you remember that. I do remember that. Yeah. Like a bone spur removed. That's right. Yes. And then he had that surgery at the end of August. And then they were trying to figure out if he was going to come back. He missed week one. They had a Thursday night game against the Chiefs. He came back for that game, played and obviously he had the busted coverage. Yep. Give it a long touchdown. Yeah. And so Watson, right? Yeah. And then, you know, the following week, he didn't play and then he came back and then you know week sevens when he suffered the injury so you wonder how much of it was just like he decided to have this surgery in august and then it kind of

just derailed everything so healthy think is still the biggest question if he's healthy then you feel pretty good about what he can give the defense yeah i don't i don't i think that if you're if you're your biggest concern with jc is like oh he's he didn't grasp the defense and that was a big issue like i don't see that as a massive issue that that's i feel like if he's healthy if he's healthy if he was healthy and playing not like he wasn't new england but if he's healthy and playing like he wasn't training camp last year i think they have a really good secondary And then, like, what him being healthy does is creates a ton more depth across the board. Totally.

Michael Davis emerged as an elite cornerback last year. I was wondering if he was going to stick on the roster at certain points coming into last season. He was out of the rotation. I mean, he wasn't, it was going to be Asante and J.C. And then Mike Davis got his shot after J.C. went down. And he was, like, really, really good down the stretch of the season. And so they feel like they have two excellent outside corners in J.C. and Michael Davis. And then you have Jaseer Taylor, a six-round pick who's in line to start at the star.

That's a little bit of a question mark. but Asante can play in there. And so now you have this kind of versatile piece. They've been cross-training him inside or downside with Asante. I just feel pretty good about their depth there. And I think that's the biggest thing that you get with JC is that it just creates more depth with Asante being in more of a rotational role. So two more quick ones. What is the position you're most worried about?

Defensively or overall? Defensively, let's say. So it's very specific. But the third safety role is really concerning to me. Alohi Gilman's another guy that was a big part of that run down the stretch of the season when they won four in a row and made the playoffs. He played really well. They have Derwin, James, obviously. But Derwin moves around a lot.

That's a big part of what he is in this defense. In order to maximize or to get what you want from him with that contract, he has to move around. He can't just be a traditional safety. So he plays, right now he plays five different positions every year. Brandon basically adds a new one. And then I ask him like, what is this? And he tells me. But basically, you know, he plays both safety spots.

And then he'll play in the slot as a big nickel. He'll play a dime backer. There's money position. And then he'll also play this position they call the X, which is like a hybrid nickel edge thing, and they'll just blitz him or send him off the edge as a regular edge rusher. So when you're moving him to all those different spots, you need another safety to come on.

Last year, they had Nasir Adelaidele and Durham James starting, and Alohi was that. Gilman was that third safety. Now it's J.T. Woods, who's entering a second season and was rather underwhelming last year. And I have concerns about that spot, because you're an injury away from JT being the starting safety. And even if he isn't the starting safety,

he plays an important role because you're in those sub-packages on key third downs. it's third and seven, third and eight, third and ten, need to stop, need to get off the field. And that guy's playing in the deep part of the field in those situations. And so I have a little bit of concern about his ability to tackle and then just his ability to grab the defense and how he sort of sees back there. They sent Eric Hendrickson free agency. The run defense has been pretty bad over the last couple of years. How do you feel about the front seven's ability to hold up when this team is playing structurally, light boxes, all those two high coverages the way they want to play?

Yeah, I think like having Joey Bosa back on the edge will be big because you have Joey and Cleal. I have some concerns about the defensive line. It's like the same things you talk about every single year, right? But Austin Johnson and Otito Obonia, one was, Otito was a rookie last year and Austin was a pretty big for ages standing away, $7 million a year. They both suffered significant knee injuries back-to-back in weeks, 10 and 11 last year. And they're on Pup.

And behind them, there's not a whole lot. It's Morgan Fox, Sebastian Joseph Day, like Nick Williams, six-round pick Scott, Matt Locke, former practice squader, Christopher Hinton. So I would have some concerns. concerns about that. And then what I'm really curious to see is like what does Eric Kendrix do to the run defense, not necessarily in terms of playmaking, which I think he still has because he showed some of that on film last year. But what does he do in terms of communication? Yeah. A guy that has seen absolutely everything. He's brilliant. And we'll be able to get that front

in the right spot at every single time and and really be that communicator for the run defense specifically because Derwin's that guy for the defense overall. But he's not. not in the like he's not a major factor in every single run fit kendricks will be that guy and so i'm curious to see what kind of impact he might make on the run game from that sort of like leadership communication standpoint that's all i got all right it's always good to do this it's always good to see you could be back in our spot here in the stands outside of chargers camp day one uh i'm looking forward to the rest of camp i hope you are as well really appreciate the time my friend no problem thanks for having me robert all right joining us now it is our cowboys writer at the athletic

John Moshita, John, very good to see you. It's good seeing you, man. It's always great to be out here in California. I feel like we did one of these last year at this time, maybe on those bleachers over there. We are not in the bleachers. The bleachers are in the sun. We have found a nice cozy spot in the shade here, which is an upgrade. You always want to get better.

You never want to regress. You always want next year to be better than the last, and I feel like that's exactly what we're doing right now. I mean, if people could see what we're saying right now, it's just so ridiculous. Like, they have these basically like these sweets now that they've put in these back ends. zones where it used to be you could there were some certain areas where people could stand which is what's in front of us right now but then they added these sweets on top of it which i was told by someone that it is the same people that do the i don't want to get it wrong the phoenix open is that the biggest it's in phoenix but it's called like the waste management there you and this feels

very much like a golf tournament yeah scaffolding and the vantage points that we have here are very different. I will say not a lot of of VIP areas in other training camps. This is definitely a special instance with the way the Dallas Cowboys. This is what you do. That's exactly right. I wonder how much Jerry charges for the VIP. That's my biggest question here.

A rumor I heard, and those over there we were staying over there earlier during practice, I heard $250 a person. I find it very hard to believe someone's paying that to watch. I do not find that hard to believe at all. I think that makes a ton of sense, especially in this area of the country. And the fact that Jerry is trying to squeeze every

dime he can out of this is not surprising at all. Let's talk about the state of the Dallas Cowboys and where things stand as we begin training camp. The roster top the bottom is very good. There aren't that many question marks, in my opinion. There are some things that are lingering. Zach Martin returning, you know, how some of the pass catcher spots are going to shake out.

Brandon Cooks is on this team now. Michael Gallup, I think is going to be a little bit healthier, which is something I didn't really take into account with his performance last year and the need to go get another past catcher that he was nine months off of an ACL tear coming back. He should probably be better this year. The offense is loaded. The defense is loaded. The two spots, I feel like they really needed to go get somebody.

Three spots would be the interior of the defensive line, another pass catcher, and that second cornerback position. They did all of that. All of the holes you wanted them to fill, they did. But it's still hard to get overly excited about this team because there's always the yeah, but. And the yeah, but in this case, is Mike McCarthy taking over as the play caller and them jettising a guy who led one of the most efficient high-scoring offenses in the NFL over the last three years and saying,

we're good. Is it any more complicated than that? If Mike McCarthy can get this thing rolling in the right direction, then this team should be one of the best teams in the NFC? Absolutely. And you summed it up perfectly. I agree with all that you just said there. And I would even add in that you look across the NFC, and it is just wide open to me. Like it should be the Cowboys, Eagles, and Niners, and then there's another tier down where you probably get to Lions and a few others. But to me, I feel like it's a three-team race. And so you're going with, you have Dak Prescott, a loaded offense, a loaded defense, and it's going to probably come down between you, Philly, and then the Niners.

And I just get the sense from the fan base when you talk about, like, not having, you know, not feeling like anything's really changed that much. It's because they didn't, they haven't shown you that they consistently win in January. And so it's like, no matter what happens out here or what happens during the regular season, even if they put up these big numbers, there's always going to be that. like, yeah, but, you know, we've seen some good teams that last 27 years, and they haven't even gotten back to the NFC championship game, much less a Super Bowl. And so because of that, I completely understand where fans come from when it is the,

I'll dip a toe in the water, but I need to see more, you know? Brian Schottenheimer, I told you guys earlier this spring, and this is the number that I heard as well, that somewhere between like 25, around like 25% of the offense will change. How true that is, who knows. But the changes seem to be rooted in the ways that they're going to protect certain concepts, maybe some of the language associated with the past protection, then maybe some of the play action stuff that they're trying. But this isn't going to be some wholesale change on offense.

So if somebody who covers this team day to day, what do you think was the motivation from Mike McCarthy saying, all right, I want this to be my offense now. And we appreciate everything you did here, Kellan, but it's time to take this in a slightly different direction. Well, I think when he took over 2020, his first year was the COVID year, and they treat that like it was like this red shirt year for him as a coach for the Cowboys. and then these last two years, back-to-back 12-win seasons, you know, they lose the Niners both years.

But those back-to-back-back-12-win seasons, that's the first time the Cowboys have done that since those really good 90s, those legendary 90s teams. And so because of that, I feel like what else is there for him to take the next step other than, all right, I got to take this over. I got to take the ownership on it. I got two years left in my contract. I got to show, you know, this is, I'm going to take it to the next level. So that's the main thing. But I also will put in there, you know, he took a lot of heat at the combine for saying that. He certainly did.

Yeah, about how he wants to, you know, there's certain situations where I want to run the damn ball. And I think that that was misinterpreted by a lot of people thinking that Kellan didn't know what he was doing. And Mike's going to run the ball like it's like he's got Emmett, you know, back in the night. That's not what he's going to do. And that's not what he meant with Kellyn. Obviously, Kellyn was, he was a successful offensive play caller here, but it didn't lead to the differences in the playoffs. So when I go back on that, there's two particular games that will always stand out to me from last season.

And it was at Jacksonville, at Green Bay. Both those games, Cowboys definitely should have won, double-digit lead, second half, and blew both those games. For those particular games, I do think that Mike McCarthy wanted to run the ball more. In those particular situations, they had a nice lead. They should have won both those games. And if they do that, then they got 14 wins and, you know, whatever. But I think it was also that where he's at in his kind of. on track, he has to lead this team on the next step. And so because he's a former

offensive play caller, I think he feels like, okay, let me step in here and take this over. We see this a lot where a head coach will take over and there was a successful coordinator on one side of the ball. Often it's the other side of the ball. If it's an offensive-minded head coach, it'll be a defensive coordinator. But these arranged marriages where somebody had some success. And even if we want a new head coach, we still feel like this person is worth retaining. And Mike Patton was the defensive coordinator in Green Bay when Matt Lefleur got there, for example, because, all right, we've had some success on that side of the ball. don't you handle this and I'll make sure that I'm taking care of the offense.

As soon as something goes wrong, as soon as there's an opening, the head coach often wants to remake the staff the way he wants to see it. And it feels like this is another example of that. Yeah, no, that's fair to say. I just look at this team as a whole and think. Oh, another good example is Zach Boyer in Miami last year. McFandio is there now. He was the defensive coordinator. Again, these kind of arranged marriages that last maybe a year or two.

but eventually those things run out of road because, well, this isn't my guy. And I want to make sure that I'm doing this my way. Well, and then the other side of the ball in Dallas, though, there's nobody question in the defensive coordinator. Nor should they. And this is the best defense that they've had in over a decade. And so because of that, it's almost like, okay, well, what needs to improve here? And so you look at it as well, the offense hasn't been as efficient as they needed to be in January.

What kind of changes are we going to make? And they go and they make the move, obviously, for Brandon Cooks. and that was great, but I just, I feel like there was just more that they wanted to do because, like I said, it will come down to January. It kind of sucks covering a team like that because there's going to be parts in the season, whether it's good or bad, and you're just going to kind of be like, well, if they make the playoffs, they're ultimately going to be judged on that. So it is kind of what it is.

We talked about how the roster is pretty complete on both sides of the ball. They have a lot of talent in a lot of different areas. Where are the weaknesses I'm not seeing? When you're thinking about the position battles that matter or some of the questions that matter, where would you start? Well, I can't say anybody would feel super confident about the kicking position right now. For some reason, they just do not have a very high value on that position, but that's, that can be whatever.

For me, personally, the offensive line jumps out to me, and the only reason I say that is because maybe they've been a little unlucky, but they have just not been able, since Mike McCarthy's been head coach, they have not been able to keep that same five out there. And so if you tell me that they have very good. good luck in the health department on the offensive line, I think that that fills a lot of gaps. But I mean, even as we come out here, you know, obviously Cowboys, there's always some kind of drama. Zach Martin's not out here. And then so you're looking at, okay, well, you'll be fine, I guess if you have Tyrant Smith,

Tyler Smith, Zach gets back, and then Terrence Steele out there. But, yeah, that looks great. But Terran Steele is coming off of a major knee injury. Tyrant Smith hasn't been able to stay healthy since like 2015. And as soon as you lose one of those pieces, everything has to move. The depth behind them, I just, as I see here today, I don't feel great about. And so if you tell me that that offensive line isn't playing at a high level, I just see the trickle down of the running game not having as much success.

Dak Prescott possibly rushing things because he's not, you know, he's pressing a little bit to get the ball out of his hands. And I just think the trickle down of that could be pretty bad. But if they can stay healthy on the offensive line, Zach Martin gets back out here, I think that answers a lot of questions. And they could have the best offense that they've had in a long time. but I got to see that first because the offensive lines have been healthy for a while. It's a transition because I think for years the swing tackle position was a huge question for them.

That's where they didn't have a lot of depth. Tyler Smith could do that last year, so that gives you some flexibility. But this year it feels like they're more protected at tackle than they are in the interior. If Tyron Smith gets hurt again, you can bump Tyler Smith out there, but you don't have the guard depth that you've had over the last couple seasons. That's the change in my opinion. Absolutely. And that's one of those things where I will say that I do keep my eye on the possibility of them

signing a veteran. They've got some space, right? They've got some flexibility. And it's also like last year, linebacker as we entered camp, there was some question marks there. They went out and got Anthony Barr. Last year during the season,

wide receiver was an issue. They went out and got T.Y. Hilton defensive tackle. They went and got Jonathan Hankins. I just think there's too much riding on this season for them just to sit back and go, yeah, well, we really thought Chuma Adoga or Josh Ball were going to step into this spot or Matt Farniak. And it just didn't happen.

oh, well, we'll try back next year. No, I think that they will make a move for a veteran on the interior. I think that makes sense because that's the one area where, like, man, if they get an injury on the interior of the offensive line, they just don't have the bodies there, like they have in years past. On defense, same sort of question. Like, where are maybe the cracks in the foundation that I'm not necessarily seen? You mentioned defensive tackle that there's some question marks there. Obviously, they feel good about Mazi Smith, who they took in the first round,

re-signing Jonathan Hankins. They like that. But I would say linebacker just because. because Layton Van Derrash and Desmond Clark are your clear starters, but after that there's a lot of question marks. You got Gibral Cox. They just drafted DeMarvie on over, Sean on Texas in the third round. You need another one of those guys to step up.

Because I know, I think a lot of people, when they look at the Cowboys roster, they see the linebacker. They're like, well, Michael Parsons. Michael Parsons is not playing linebacker, you know? They've explicitly said that, right? Even last year, I think you talk about the Cowboys game or the Packers game be a moment from Mike McCarthy where something clicked. I think there was a moment where everything clicked with Michael Parsons,

where it's like we're not doing this anymore. It doesn't matter who gets hurt. Michael Parsons is rushing the passer. Well, it started out as one of those things where, and I understood where they're coming from is that edge rushers, pure edge rushers, aren't going to play every defensive snap. So in a way, Dan Quinn was trying to do it. So like, I'm going to get you edge rushing snaps, but your breather is going to be back in a linebacker as opposed on the sidel.

And so he was getting a ton of reps, but I also think that that, if you look at Michael Parsons towards the end of the season, that kind of, I feel like that wear and tear catches up with him. And so I think they need to kind of maybe take a little bit of work off of his plate so he can be at his best, you know, entering January and be a little bit healthier. But, yeah, linebacker would be a spot for sure on the defense because everything else, safety, corner with adding Gilmore. They're in a good spot there. Edge Rusher, I think Sam Williams, they drafted last year in the second round. They've got the deepest edge rushing group, I think, in the NFL.

Because you have Micah, you have Sam Williams, you have Dante Fowler, who was really good for them last year. And Dorrance Armstrong can play out there if you need to. And them being four deep with guys that can actually get after the passer potentially, that's a luxury. Very few teams have. Safety, a ton of flexibility. And even in certain moments, if you're worried about linebacker, Jay Ron Gers is going to be able to bump down in some of those dime packages that they play.

I think the only real question there is injury, right? Donovan Wilson got dinged up. So if you lose some of that flexibility because you lose one of the bodies. But outside of that, if all those guys are healthy, there aren't that many questions in my mind. And there's just a lot of continuity over there because there's so many of these key players that have played together now for a few. seasons. They've been around Dan Quinn for a few seasons. So you would just think that the continuity of, you know, when you do get a player that's injured in the middle of a game and someone else has to step in, it's just they're in the best shape that they've been in a long time on defense

to just have seamless transitions. We're like, okay, so-and-so's down, you're in, and they just keep going to. I mean, corner is such a good example of that, right? Let's say Durand Blan is probably going to start as a nickel corner. Yeah. So Jordan Lewis is still on the roster. I mean, these guys that used to be starters and used to play these huge roles are now potentially insurance policies for guys who have now been slotted into those starting spots. It's just so crazy to think of it with this Cowboys team particularly because, as you know, from coming out of these training camps, like, this Cowboys team has been so offense first for so long that, like, you come out here now and you're just like, I mean, I think the defense

is better than the offense. I think it's clear. But fewer questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think you can really, coming into last season, I'll be. I'll be totally honest. I was wondering what Dan Quinn's second act was going to look like because they were so turnover dependent in his first year.

Even if a lot of the metrics jumped out at you, I still feel like, man, if they can't turn the ball over as much, what is this going to look like? Last year, they didn't create as many turnovers and they were just as good on defense. And the one area where they really struggled, they really needed some more help was in the interior of the defensive line. And to the Jonathan Ankins thing, I feel like that kind of clicked off a light bulb for Will McLeigh and the people building this team saying, if we get a really, real piece in there, a really young player that we can rely on and we spend something on it,

that can take this defense to the next level. And that's what Mazzie Smith is supposed to do for them. Yeah, their run defense, I would say over the last couple years, if you were going to point to one thing, that has been their weakness. And so getting a defensive tackle like Mazi Smith, what it could do for a latent van derrash, allowing him to roam a little bit easier. And then ultimately they're hoping that it'll put them in a position to where teams can't just kind of focus on one thing. Because if you're stopping the run, they know that they can't happen then they have to pass. I mean, this Cowboys defense wants you to pass as much as possible. The one other bit of news that happened, you know, a couple days before I got here, obviously

the Trayvon Day's extension. He's now one of the highest paid corners in the NFL. And if I were a Cowboys fan, I think that future that I'm about to be looking at with all these guys who, they drafted so well over the last four or five years under this regime, so well. It's done such a fantastic job of drafting, developing their own in-house guys. But that's really, really hard to sustain over a long period of time. And those guys that they hit on in the first, second, third, fourth round, Tony Powell is playing on the franchise tag now. Trayvon Diggs just got paid.

C.D. is going to be looking for a market setting extension. Those are coming. And I think there's real urgency here with all of that young core starting to get a little bit more expensive about what this year means and how important it is to this group specifically. For sure. I mean, that's Trayvon Diggs, C.D. Lamb, Terrence, Steele, and then Dack are the four main contracts that they had been talking about like you know we want to get these done but i will say covering this team the digs deal the digs deal gets done i'm i was literally walking over there

and i'm like when it happened and i was like so i go back to the tent to start right and and i wish that this wasn't my thought but i'm sure cowboys fans are thinking the same thing like it's a good deal he's played well for them but you just have a little bit this 2019 PTSD where in like i think It's 18 days in 2019. Lyle Collins, Jalen Smith, and Zicielalia were all signed to these contract extensions, and you were like, they're doing it. This is the right thing to be. And all three of those just did not get anywhere near the return on investment you want.

So there is a little bit of the wondering, like, well, now they're going to pay the guy. He's not going to be this, whatever. But I'm a big fan of the way Trayvon Diggs plays. There's a lot of people that are critical the way he tackles or lack thereof or how he gambles on the back end. But I just believe taking the ball away and getting your hands on the ball at the rate that he does. And the NFL today is just so valuable. So I thought it was a good contract, to be honest with you. There's such a weird spot to be in for these teams that are right on the edge of contention, but haven't been able to break through. And especially teams where there

are very few personal questions, it really all comes down to. Is Mike McCarthy the guy who can get a little bit more out of this offense? Can they find who they want to be late in the season? because every other piece is in place for this team to win the NFC and finally get over the hump. But like you mentioned, we just need to see it until we see it, then none of the rest really matters. I will say this. During the regular season, one thing that will really stand out is how confident is Dak Prescott playing because we saw it, like last year was so crazy the way his season ended at Washington, arguably the worst game ever seen Dak play in the regular season of the finale.

The following week they play that wildcard game at Tampa. That's probably the best game I've ever seen Dak Prescott play. Then the following week they play against the Niners, and that again was one of the worst games I've ever seen them play. So that's going to be a big part for Mike McCarthy, is making sure that DAC's on the same page with all the receivers, the confidence is there, and you'll be able to see that. I will say adding up Brandon Cooks.

That was a big issue last year, is that number three receiver spot. There just wasn't that consistency there. It's a different sort of player. Noah Brown's a dirty workout. Now they have three legitimate receiving options. And again, I think that Michael Gallup being further removed from that injury, we're going to see a slightly different version of him than we saw for most of last year. That's my guess.

And when you add Brandon Cooks to the mix of that, and then the flexibility they have a tight end. I mean, they've got four different guys. You know, when Luke Schoonmaker gets in the mix, I think all of those guys will make the roster. All of them will have a role. There's just a ton of different directions this offense can go. And I think it's now up to the head coach and a couple new guys on staff. Brian Schott and Armour was on staff last year, but not in this capacity. Scott told Zine is in his first year as the quarterback's coach.

So a few new voices. Mike Solari, the offensive line coach is new. Yep. And offensive line coach is obviously a big position too. So that'll be an interesting thing. Like I said, I don't care how good of a coach you are. If your guys aren't healthy, there's only so much you're going to be able to do. John Ashota, always good to chat with you, my friend.

Really, really appreciate the time. It's great to see you. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me on anytime. All right, guys. That's all we got. Thank you so much to Jordan. Thank you to Daniel.

Thank you to John. Really appreciate that. their time. Always good to hit L.A. when you're out there for camp. It's fun because the Rams and the Chargers practice very close to one another. You can do both of them in one day. When it's 95, those days tend to get pretty long. Got a pretty sunburn neck after that first stop. But a fantastic set of training camp practice visits, a really good week out there on the West Coast. I am now going to be in the southeast for next week's swing visiting Dolphins camp. We're going to have some time with the falcons, some time with the Panthers going to Jags practice.

Really good week ahead. Very excited about all of it. Please be sure to check out everything we have coming next week. Very excited to have Nate back late in the week. We're going to do some of our classic preseason preview shows. Talk about some top 10 offenses, some other fun topics. We also have an exciting conversation coming your way Monday with D'Amico Ryans. Hopped on the athletic football show, the new head coach of the Houston Texans.

So be sure to be on the lookout for that on Monday. Until then, really appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of you guys this weekend. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.