The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - TAFS Goes Camping, Vol. 2: Falcons, Panthers and Jaguars

Episode Date: August 5, 2023

Training camp rolls on, as does Robert Mays' travels around the country. In Volume 2 of TAFS Goes Camping, Robert visits with Falcons beat writer Josh Kendall, Panthers beat writer Joe Person and John Shipley, publisher of the Jaguar Report at SI.com.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Joe on Twitter: @josephpersonFollow Josh on Twitter: @JoshTheAthleticFollow John on Twitter: @_John_Shipley and @JaguarReportSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThe Football 100, the definitive ranking of the NFL’s best 100 players of all time, goes on sale this fall. Pre-order it here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. This is the second edition of our going camping series that we're doing. Checking in at different training camps from around the country. I've been to see seven teams now, I believe, just finishing up my southeast swing here in Atlanta. I'm going to go home for a couple of days before going out and visiting the Colts,

the Bengals, joint practices with the Lions and the Giants. Giants next week. It's going to be very exciting. After that, going to the East Coast, I know some people have asked. Going to do the Eagles, the Jets, the Bills, the Steelers, maybe going to go see the Browns, and then going to do the NFC North,

the rest of those teams, to kind of round things out. So if you want to look forward to some of the stuff, that might be coming your way, those are the teams. But we have the southeast today, a good chunk of the NFC, South, specifically. went to Atlanta to visit with Josh Kendall, our Falcons writer, Carolina, to chat with Joe Person, who covers the Panthers for the athletic, and visited with John Shipley, who covers the Jaggs for the Jaguar Report, which is part of the Sports Illustrated Network.

We don't have a Jags writer, but John does a great job covering that team. Definitely wanted to chat with him. So those are the conversations coming your way today. Let's get to it. Joining us now, it is our Falcons writer here at the Athletic. It's Josh Kendall. Josh, how are you? Doing pretty good.

It was cool today. It was so nice. I mean, it was, yeah, borderline great. I'll take that weather any day of the week. It's hard. I feel bad and feel stupid to all the weather talk we do during the training camp tour, but it does really matter. It's a huge factor on daily life.

It absolutely is. If it's 90 every day, it makes for a much longer camp than it typically would otherwise. Weather aside, a lot of excitement, I think, around this team this year and what's going on in Atlanta. Year 2 of Desmond Ritter, the unquestioned starter, the skill position players that this team has. We were talking about the offensive line earlier. As you kind of take the temperature of people around town, people within this building, how do you think the expectations from last year to this year have changed organizationally? Around town, I mean, this is a scar fan base for 56 years.

So there's cautious optimism, but it's cautious. In the building, I mean, I think you saw today. these guys are feeling themselves a little bit. You know, it's hard for somebody who's won 14 games in two years to kind of swagger, but they're trying to pull it off. They're all got goofy mustaches. You know, Arthur Smith's talking about this is the most fun he's head coaching. Everybody's smiling.

Yeah, I mean, they are, you know, they're feeling themselves a little bit is the sense that I get. And I think probably that starts with the talent that they have on offense and what that offense could look like. So let's build the optimistic case offensively for this being maybe one of the best offenses in football. We can start up front. I know that's the sexiest thing that everyone wants to start with. Matthew Bergeron is right now starting at left guard for them as a second round pick. Only new start around this line. And the rest of the line last year is full pretty good players. Chris Listern's maybe the best guard in the league right now at right guard. Caleb McGarry was much better last season, got a deserve it extension at right tackle. We know Jake Matthews is pretty much

as steady as they come at left tackle. And Drew Dalman is a very good center. for this group. If Bergeron hits right away and he's gotten this opportunity because Matt Hennessy got hurt early in camp, this could be one of the best offensive lines of football. I think that's fair to say. Absolutely. And especially, we talked about this earlier, especially run blocking. And what that does is it at least gives you a foundation. If they can run block better than they did last year and you throw Bejeon Robinson into that mix, you've at least got something you can fall back on 17 times a year. They were third in rushing DBOA last season, even without Bichon Robinson in the mix.

So now you have Bichon Robinson and takes you the skill position players. Kyle Pitts, Bajon Robinson, Drake wanted. I mean, three top 10 picks at pass catchers and at the skill position spots. If that all comes together and we get a better version of all those guys and Bijon is a factor right away, top the bottom, outside of the quarterback, the other 10 positions, you can make an argument that this is, I don't know, top five group in terms of supporting cast around the league. And they have a play caller and their head coach who consistently,

has gotten the most out of his offenses going back to his time in Tennessee. So that really just leaves what's going to happen with the quarterback. And as someone who's here every day, I'm sure you talk to people about his progress, what they expect from him, they're giving him this opportunity as a third round pick in his second season. Why are they so excited about what he could potentially do in this role? Number one, I think most importantly, because they have to be right now. that's a fair answer because he is their starting quarterback and there is no use saying publicly oh boy I hope this works you know everything is about Des is our guy Arthur Blank the team

owner said earlier this week this kid is the quarterback of the future we feel very highly about him so that's you know let's remember that that's the most important thing they do believe he could do it. They do like his makeup. Makeup is a word you probably heard 25 times today alone. You know, it's a word that they use all the time. They like his makeup. They think he's mature enough to do it. They think he's got enough, I'm trying to find an appropriate way to say this, you know, enough of jerk in him to lead the way they want their quarterback to lead.

Fuck you energy. That's how I would describe it. Yeah. They believe he's got enough of that. He's shown them that as a young kid who, who's only started four games, they like that, and they think they can coach him to do the rest in what he's going to need to do within this group that you just pointed out. He does not have to be Kyle Murray, carry it all on his plate.

He does not have to be. Jalen Hertz and do a thousand things really well. He just has to be okay. Yeah, the supporting cast and the structure of the offense is such that I think they just want him to put the ball where they want him to put the ball. this is going to be open. If everything else goes right, you are going to have plays to be made on the field.

All I need you to do is get the plays that are there to be made. And if he can do that, if he can be, I think the number I threw out to you earlier when we were talking is, let's say he's the 20th best quarterback in the NFL this year. If everything else lines up in the way that I think they expected to be in it might, this is going to be one of the 10 best offenses in football. And in that an NFC South, without a lot of proven competition, it absolutely might be enough with some projected gains from the defense for this team to win the NFC South. And guess what?

It's year three. They spent a lot of money in free agency this year. The checkbook is open. Now is the time. Now is the time you have to start trying to win division titles and start pushing this thing into the next stage. Yeah, this team is, you know, they're on the record saying, you know, our goal is to win the division. And it absolutely should be. Anything short of that is a disappointment.

There's no question. I wonder if you go back to, you know, February, March, even then before free agency, I think they were very comfortable in giving Desmond this opportunity. And there were probably moves to be made. You make a phone call maybe about a Ryan Tannahill or somebody else that could be a proven quantity of quarterback. And the fact that they didn't seem all that interested in those avenues, and even before analyzing what the market might look like in late February, they felt comfortable doing this. Maybe I'm rationalizing it. That makes me feel better about what he might look like. The fact that maybe this isn't,

the consolation prize that this was the plan all along even heading into this off season. Something changed between last offseason and, you know, of all things you're pursuing to Sean Watson pretty aggressively to this off season and you are coming out immediately and saying we're not pursuing Lamar Jackson. Something in, you know, something changed in that span. Maybe they just came to their senses. But the other change there is they got a chance to look at husband Ritter. So maybe they did, maybe they legitimately thought, you know, yeah, maybe they do believe in as much as they say. The only thing I'm worried about is if this doesn't go well, if you decide by the end of the season that he's just not the guy to take us where we want to go,

what are your avenues then to find that guy? Because even if he's bad, I still feel like this team will probably hover somewhere around 500. If you're picking in the middle of the first round, that cuts off pathways to find that quarterback. You've spent a lot of money in free agency. If you go get a veteran, it's going to be expensive. So threading the needle then, if he falls a little bit short, I think that becomes difficult. If I were a Falcons fan, that's the timeline I would be most worried about. Because it seems like a lot of the plan that they've tried to put in place is built around this guy making third round quarterback money.

And if you have to go find somebody who's more expensive than that, either with draft capital or somewhere on the veteran market, does that put that plan in general? I think it does, but I don't think you have a choice. I mean, if he's just bad, you've put all this other stuff into place, you've got to go try to find an answer. And I think Arthur Smith in his heart of hearts, and he has some reason to believe this, believes he can make it. He doesn't have to have the guy to make it work. And let's rewind the clock. It's a dangerous, dangerous way to approach the position. I understand why he thinks that, but it is a dangerous way to live.

Let's rewind to rock to Ryan Taney Hill. And everybody thought of Ryan Tanny Hill eight years ago, whatever it was. It was available for a fourth round pick and a, but, I understand. bag of balls. They throw him in there. They clean it up a little bit. They surround him like here with elements that take a lot of load off his shoulders and it looks fine. So I think they think they can live that way, but you're right. You know, that's a hard way to make it work. You've got everything else has to be nailed down completely for that to work. I kind of just hand-waved this go-position group being good. Kyle Pitts was banged up last year. He had a disappointing second

season. What are you most worried about all the past catching spots falling into place, about why they might not? Well, I'm a little worried. I'm not worried about Desmond Reader's accuracy. He's still got to prove that. He's still got to prove. This is an offense that we saw really hamstrung by quarterback accuracy last year, mostly Marcus Moriota's, but some of Des. So Des has got to prove that he can settle that down. He can get the ball where it needs to go. The other part is just everybody finding a defined role that works for him. Kyle Pitts has still got three career touchdowns. They have not, quote, unquote, unlocked Kyle Pitts yet.

Everybody keeps assuming it's going to happen. Well, we're in year three now. Maybe year two and a half, considered what happened last year. That's got to happen. Drake London, perfectly good. You know, he's not a Chris Oliva era, Gary Wilson. He didn't rise quite to that level, but he was really good for this team. This team threw the ball like 12 times a game, so it's hard to do that.

Does what they want him to do, blocks in the run game really well. You know, is Scotty Miller. you know, DeMere Bird Plus, you know, beyond Drake and Kyle and what you get from Bejohn in the passing game, I don't know, you know, John Hussmith has got to come on. John O'Smith has got to do some John Hussmith things for them. A lot of depth pieces have to fall in place for their passing. Were you surprised that they weren't a little bit more aggressive in going out to get a number three receiving option on the veteran market or in free agency this year?

And they were comfortable just kind of whatever they paid Mac Collins. I can't imagine it's very much. Yeah, I thought that they would, and I still. think that they're keeping their eye on the market. I think that there are, so there are some guys, maybe one particular guy in New York that you're wondering, it's going to... It's the first name that came to mind. It's going to become available. Yes. Corey Davis has familiarity with Arthur Smith. He knows this offense. He can give you a couple different things. He feels a slightly different role than Drake does. That's the name I kept coming back

to this spring that they might be interested in, but it feels like he's got a pretty good-sized salary. If they were going to make that move, it seems like the sort of move that they would have made earlier in the spring rather than right now. So that's what I would keep coming back to. But at this stage of the calendar, I would just be surprised if it happened. When we see cuts around camp, when we see cuts at other places, I wouldn't be surprised if they had another guy that they feel like can fill that role. That makes sense.

But we'll see. Because that's really the one spot on this offense. That would be a little bit concerned. Running back to have him. Teller Ojo was very good for them last year. Now he's their number two back. Everything else kind of falls in a place. Getting John Smith kind of in the post-type stretch where you can get it for nothing.

The seventh round. Exactly. I think that they've made some smart bets in those areas. defensively they bring in Ryan Nielsen from the Saints as their defensive coordinator. And I think there's going to be a pretty significant schematic shift here. And how all those pieces get figured out is my biggest question, honestly, because they spent pretty decent draft capital on edge rushers and front seven players under a previous defensive regime and a previous defensive set of ideas.

So Arnold Ebiketti, guys like that, how did they fit into this plan? Because they spent a lot of money in free agency and added a lot of bodies on the defensive front. Calais Campbell, Bud Dupree. So how that shakes out is my biggest question on that side of the ball. What does it look like so far? Much different, much more pressure-oriented, much more aggressive. I think that they have turned the secondary over to Jerry Gray and Steve Jackson. An underrated hiring. Jerry Gray has been an assistant all around the league.

He was in Green Bay for a long time. I think he was their defensive passing game coordinator, a well-respected guy around the NFL with a ton of experience. And he and Steve Jackson played together. For the oilers, I think. I mean, these guys go back in the day. So, you know, they have changed that second day. The depth is better.

They will be more aggressive. Drake London has mentioned that it feels, just literally feels different to him in camp. He just doesn't have the operating room. Interesting. He had last year in camp. And then this is a team that's had 39 sacks in the last two years, which is, you know, 32nd with by far in the NFL in that period. It seems like a fake number. It's hard to have that few over a two-year stretch.

It literally is. So now they've added pieces who they feel like can provide quarterback pressure from a lot of different spots. They didn't go out and sign a marquee top-of-the-market edge rusher. I'm not sure that guy was necessarily available. They very rarely are. They weren't in that market. So, you know, they got David Anamata to put beside Grady Jarrett in hopes that that frees Grady up to get some more pressure on the pass. So they've got the two young linebackers, Kade Nellis and Troy Anderson, who are both really athletic players who

can get some pressure. Bud Dupree, Callais Campbell, those guys are veterans. They'll fall into five sacks apiece, maybe. So I think that this will be a very, you know, we hear multiple, up and down the training camp tour, I'm sure, that this will be a multiple defense. They will try to get quarterback pressure from a lot of different places. You know, it would be really hard for me right now to pick this team's sack leader.

And if you made me do it, the way they're going to play, I might pick Grady Jerry. Yeah, and maybe that number is seven by the end of the season. But if five guys get seven sacks and they have 45 of them as a team, it's pretty good. It'll be significantly better than it's been in years. Yeah, 45 is probably even a high number. But if five guys have seven sacks and they get 35 sacks over the course of the season, that's an improvement from where it's been. And I don't know how much I can say about this, but let's just say some of the ideas I saw that they were trotting out on defense today are similar to the things that you saw in New Orleans over the last couple years. And Arthur Smith even said today,

Cade Nellis is going to be somebody who gives us some rush. And that ability to have those linebackers be blitzers and really bring those five-man pressures and some of those simulated pressures that we saw from the Saints over the last couple years, we have these bigger defensive ends who kind of collapsed the pocket. I'm intrigued.

I think that they've added enough pieces in that area for the front seven to be a strength of this team rather than define weakness, which you can argue it has been over the last couple years. Oh, 1,000 percent. DeQuan Graham. A good young player out of Texas, third-year guy, he was their second best defensive lineman last year.

He's probably fifth or sixth in that conversation right now. Just the personnel additions are huge. Ryan Nielsen is a first-time defensive coordinator, first-time play caller on that side of the ball. He's still got to prove he can handle all that comes with that all week long, but especially on Sundays. You've got to see what it looks like. That's still a question mark, and you're fitting a lot of pieces together.

How long does that take? You're asking even the guys who have been here together to do something completely different. Will it take a while? Maybe, maybe not. We'll see. I feel more comfortable about the front seven being a solid position group

and a solid area of the defense than I do about the secondary at this point. Obviously, AJ Trell at it down in season last year, but we've seen him play very, very well on the outside. They bring in Jesse Bates as a high-priced free agent, even if that's a lot of money for safety, Jesse Bates is a good player. Richie Grant now in your three.

Yes. Right? Your three for Richie Grant at that other safety spots. Okay, that may be solid. The other two spots, the nickel corner and the other outside corner, corner. From the outside looking in, it feels like that's up for grabs. They bring in Jeff Okuda. They have a couple other guys fighting for those spots. Who do you think wins those jobs?

And are those the two spots on the defense that you feel kind of the most shaky about? There's no question. Jeff Okuda has taken every one of those snaps with the first team opposite AJ Terrell. And it's been an adventure over the last couple years of Jeff Okuda. There's a reason he was available. The Lions remade their entire secondary and gave him away for next to nothing. Right. And it's been an adventure out here at times. I think that the Falcons right now are in love with the same things that everybody else is in love with, Jeff Okuda, in the draft process. And like every coach in the world, they believe they're the guys to get the most out of it. We'll see.

If it's not him, it's Trey Flowers, it's Cornell Armstrong, it's Mike Hughes, another Detroit castoff who's second team nickel right now but could go outside. When you, when the team that had arguably the worst secondary in the league and the world, one of the worst past defenses in the league, when you're the team that's taken those guys when they've improved all those spots, you can't feel great about that. We have the 2022 Lions secondary half of it this year is not something I think you want from a team building perspective. Right. Yeah. I mean, they're going to test Jerry Gray's all of Jerry Gray's knowledge. And I think that Cornell Armstrong is a guy who, you know, by the end of the year, people could be saying, you know, he's not going to be a star. By the end of the year, by process of elimination, he could be getting a lot of snaps for this team.

That would be the one thing. If I were Terry Fondow, Arthur Smith, Ryan Nielsen, I'd be staring at the ceiling and then kind of thinking about what those two spots look like. Because otherwise, I think that the defense top to bottom is a chance to be a lot better. And if it is, and we get the gains that we expect from the offense, there's really no reason this can't be a 10-win team. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And in a very upper Grabs division. I think I've used that term several different times in talking to you and Joe Person over the last couple days. and then talking and thinking about the NFC South.

Oh, it's a roll of the dice. There's no question. Josh Kendall, very much appreciate the time, sir. It is very good to see you. It's very good to be down here in Atlanta. Always enjoy the time. We will talk to you very soon. Thanks for having me.

Joining us now, it is our Panthers writer at The Athletic. Joe Persson. Joe, it's wonderful to see you. I know, man. I feel like, well, we hung out in some in Indianapolis, but it seems like it could not have been, what, five, six months ago, And here we are again.

Yeah, and a lot has changed since we did that. The last time I saw you, the Panthers had not traded for the number one pick. They had not made all the offseason moves that they did. The tenor around this team feels a lot different now than it did on February 27th or whenever the last time we had a conversation was. The day we did the pod from Indy, the night before they had met with Derrick Carr in the downtown Spartanburg area. That's all you need to say. That is all you need to say. It's fascinating.

and it makes total sense. This team for several years just kind of moving pieces around. It was almost like a quarterback shell game for a little while. It's like, oh, well, we'll do a little Baker-Mayfield and we'll do a little Sam Donald. And I can understand wanting to just smash that cycle

and just say, we need to reset the timeline. We need to make an all-in big sort of swing here to get this thing back on track and actually have some semblance of a plan. And in my mind, that is what the swing for Bryce don't feels like. No doubt about it. And I think that has been Scott Fitter's preference since he got here. He was groomed in Seattle where they famously, of course, hit on Russell Wilson in the third round. But I remember him at press conferences while that shell game, as you so well put it, was going on.

He would say, you know, we do want to get to a point where we draft and developed. And I just think you had some competing interests where Matt Rule was coaching for his job. Yeah. And, you know, and in fairness, like, the rule's first year, they were interested in Justin Herbert. They didn't trade up for him. He got picked one spot ahead of where the Panthers stayed and took Garrett Brown. But, yeah, for all this to sort of be on the same page now with Frank Wright, himself, of course, quarterback whisperer Josh McCown, obviously a quarterback's guy, Jim Caldwell, who we never really

talk about much. There's a plan here, and we'll see if it works. There is kind of still a hodgepodge or different factors if you look at some of the underlying details. They have $50 million in dead money. You know, the Robbie Anderson contract, they're still paying for the Christian McCaffrey contract. Those are vestiges of a previous regime. but the way that they've done it because they're now on the rookie quarterback deal, it seems like they might be able to pull this off. And the timeline of dropping Bryce Young into it now makes more sense than it would have dropping Justin Fields into it maybe two years ago.

You pick Iki Okuano in the first round. You've spent on a couple interior offensive linemen. That position group is set. You had a little bit of leftover money after trading DJ Moore to sign a couple receivers in free agency and give him enough. So for the first time, I think that they're in a position where dropping a rookie quarterback into the overall equation actually works, and because of what you're paying for that quarterback over the next two years, everything kind of fall into place. It's tough to do when you're, again,

you're kind of settling the scores of Matt Rule and the way that they operated for a couple of years, but there is a way that they can pull this off in the next 24 months. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the offensive line, because that was another thing that that fitter harped on, that their plan was to get the line right before they went and invested, uh, and, uh, and, a number one or a high draft pick for quarterback. And so that meant Austin Corbett last year, Bradley Bozeman, the two interior guys you referenced. And I think they really found a gem in Iki Aquana. He was terrific last year.

He has the tough debut against Miles Garrett, Week 1, in Charlotte. And then after that, I mean, he was stoning people most of the season. And hearing the defensive guys talk about. him like you can tell they think he is the real deal and so the line you're right the lines in place they've added some pieces like hayden hurst and miles Sanders to guys like who should be catching a lot of passes around the line of scrimmage or not get not deep downfield to help Bryce and really trying to set him up for success no real difference makers at the past catching spots DJark has struggled to stay healthy adam the one's going to be 34 years old

Hayden Hurst has been at plug-in-play tight end. Miles Sanders is a decent running back. But first of all, you only have so many resources to go around. Second of all, that's what you want right now. As long as you're putting your quarterback in a decent position early in his career and you're not stunting his development. Because that's what we see a lot. And these teams draft quarterbacks with the number one overall pick,

teams are fucking terrible. They're not in a position to kind of push that guy's development forward in the right way. I think the Panthers are kind of that team because the line is in place They kept the offensive line coach James Campin. They figured out the right guys, the past catching spots, just to lift things enough. I feel like these are decent circumstances for a guy taking number one overall, and you can't always say that. Yeah, I agree. I mean, you hit the nail on the head.

Haydenhurst is an upgrade over what the – the tight end position here has been a mess, a hot mess since Greg Olson was released. It's so true. I mean, they – I did a story on tight ends here a couple of days ago. and first of all, Hearst was, you know, they love Frank Reich's offense for tight ends. Going back to Antonio Gates,

when Reich was with the Chargers as an O.C. Sack Ertz when he was a Peterson's O.C. in Philly. And then more recently, I mean, he got Eric Ebron to a pro bowl. Jack the oil got paid. I mean,

they did just fine. Maybe they weren't superstars there, but those guys lived a nice life for tight ends in Indianapolis. And in looking back, some of the numbers for that story, and I had forgotten this, or maybe I wanted to will it out of my memory. They had a year, Robert, where I think it was the first year after Olson was gone, their tight ends combined three of them for 27 receptions. From the room. Like, I found, I went back and found, there were months where Greg Olson had more than 27

catches alone. So anything they get out of Hayden, Hearst, and Tommy Tramble is going to be a bonus. You put the pieces around the quarterback as well as you probably can with the resources that you had. He's in a decent spot to start his career. How have they felt about what they've seen from Bryce Young so far? I think they like, and you were there today when they were doing a lot of red zone work, he can really put the ball in tight places. I know they're not, you know, the DBs weren't hitting and so forth. But he's an accurate passer.

I mean, maybe not to the degree. we saw CJ Stroud this last year or so but Bryce can sling I mean he really can we just won't know about him until the 275 pound edge

rushers comes down on him and we're not going to see that this summer they are going to play him some in the preseason it sounds like but you know I don't I don't think anyone's we may have talked about this in any I don't think anyone this

staff is worried about like the batted passes. It's not the height. I think it's, if the staff's worried at all, I know other scouts mentioned this to me elsewhere. It's the, at 200 pounds, maybe. Yeah, the girth is the word that was used today when I was talking to someone in the front office. Can he take it? Can he take the pounding and we're going to find out? Along with the quarterback taken number one overall, there's been so much discussion about the coaching staff here.

and kind of the superstar group that they collected. And you alluded to it a little bit with Jim Caldwell, Thomas Brown, who was the, I know his exact position was with the Rams last year. It was assistant head coach slash running backs coach, was with Rams last year. It was in college for a long time before that. Josh McCown comes here. He was somebody that the Texans were looking at, some potential head coaching candidate. I'm fascinated by what that kind of group that has a very disparate set of backgrounds,

what the distilled version of the offense looks like at the end of the road. And I assume it's going to be a little bit more emotion from the Rams, a lot of the stuff that Frank used during his time in Indianapolis. But how you get all those people who don't know each other onto the same page kind of filtering into one place offensively, it's going to be a challenge. And there's a chance that comes out in a really good spot, but I'm sure that's what they're going through right now. It's a great point.

And I do wonder sometimes if there are too many chefs in the kitchen. Like forget schematic. which is important, but just for the sake of this piece of the conversation, how many voices are in Bryce Young's here? You just don't want to have him, you know, like the golfer lining up the putt with three different things or five different things going through his head. Yeah.

You want to have one. And it seems to me just watching it. And I'm not in the meetings, but I think it's McCown is taking, and as he should, he's a quarterback's coach. And Frank will have a big voice too, but I really think the conduit is Josh McCann. And this is a guy who you referenced was a hate this expression, but was basically a player coach his last two, eight, ten years. And so it's a pretty easy transition. But yeah, schematically it is.

It's going to be interesting, like kind of stew of some Rams concepts, Franks concepts. interestingly we asked Chark the other day was this offense similar to Doug Peterson's and Chark said you know not not really not not so much is kind of a different different flavor defensively Jiro Evereaux comes over as the defensive coordinator another big hire big name hire they did a fantastic job in Denver last year when that group was healthy and just sitting there watching them play today you kind of taken off position by position you feel pretty good about a lot of personnel on the defensive side of the ball. Got Frankie Louvue and Jack Thompson and linebacker.

They brought in Vaughn Bell with safety. Jeremy Chin playing a little bit of big nickel in some of these looks that they have. Xavier Woods is back there. J.C. Horn, Dante Jackson, for the outside corner spots. Derek Brown is an ascending player. Brian Burns, we know, is a very good edge rusher. I mean, there aren't that many questions. I think the defense, if they figure out maybe one other edge rusher spot,

they have a chance to be pretty damn good on that side of the ball this year. Am I getting a little bit ahead of myself? No, I don't think so. The defense, it got lost in the shuffle of the coaching change and the quarterback carousel. I feel the exact same way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they had their moments last year. They were actually better two years ago.

But a good, a good group for sure. You and I were talking about this on the field. I still think there is, I don't know if it's Debbie on Clowny. I don't know if it's somebody else. I do think some of those veteran edge guys are sitting out there and kind of waiting for a kind of camp to get over and seeing if there's an injury somewhere and drive their price up a little bit. And it would not shock me if this team is in the market for an edge guy. It's sort of been a steady drumbeat behind the scenes that they wanted a compliment in this 3-4 opposite Brian Burns.

And so they have some pieces on the roster, but there are some guys. out there, they might, they might, you know, I have a feeling they're going to have a different edge rusher in here at some point in August. Yeah, they need one. They have a little bit of money to spend too. I mean, they've got some financial flexibility. They can probably absorb a guy who's making $8 million. And even that, I think he's probably a little rich at this stage of the calendar, and they're probably going to wait some guys out because they're not in a hurry. So it feels like that's an inevitability. And if they can get one more pass rushing presence and you have a coordinator that you feel good about, this team can be really comprehensive.

It just really comes down to what do you get out of the first year quarterback? And I think the other big question is, do you realize the ceiling quickly of your past catchers? Because even if there's a lot of competence in that group, one, healthy. Charcas struggled to stay healthy. I think that's worth mentioning every single time. But if he can stay on the field, Thielen probably has lost a step, does that depress how explosive you can be on offense to the point that even if Bryce Young plays well, that there isn't a lot of road for them? those are my main two questions because if he plays well and they get enough out of that pass catching group, I think this can be a really competitive team in a division that is completely

up for grabs. Yeah, I mean, and that's the key point too, right? I mean, there's nobody in this division that really scares you. I mean, I think Saints have become the popular pick just because of Derrick Carr that he's farther along in his career, not in that scheme, but then Desmond Ritter and obviously Baker Mayfield and Tampa so the opportunity's there and you're right it collectively they have

some pieces I'm DJ Chark has looked great the last two weeks but it's you know it's the end of July early August the idea of DJ Chark is always attractive and then you get to the reality and he plays seven games and he was danged up for half of the games he did play and that's just how it's been

over the last couple years even if there are flashes it's like yeah it's a theoretical the thing more than it is in actuality. So the comparison I would make about just the circumstances, and I don't think the Matt Rue era was nearly as disasters as the Urban Meyer era, but you have a college coach where things were kind of a little bit awry, and then you bring in a guy who's been a head coach in the NFL is a stabilizing force and kind of calms everything down. Has it felt like that?

Would you say that's a fair characterization of just what the transition from Rule to Reich has been like? Oh, no question. I mean, he is a calm dude. Rule was very fiery. Rule had some different kind of motivation, made up motivational tactic. Frank's not into that kind of stuff.

I mean, like today, the practice you were there for, it lasted 88 minutes. And I don't think I heard anyone raise their voice over the entire practice. And the funny thing is, Jiro is similar. He's also a very kind of quieter guy, more mild-mannered. And it feels like the staff is full of those kind of influences.

And well, that's a good or bad thing we can argue. But it does feel like overall it's a little bit more laid back in the approach. It's like it's the correction, right? Yeah. You have the fiery coach, the fiery college coach who didn't succeed. You replace them with the stoic NFL lifer and Frank Reich, who was 13 years as an NFL backup quarterback. and then actually had a brief stint in the ministry in Charlotte. But there are adults all over the staff now.

And the players have been very, especially the veterans, have been appreciative of the fact that Frank Reich is looking out for them. Shaq Thompson using expression that he's been taking care of these guys with the workloads. And that goes a long way. They're working like eight to five. every day. Yeah. I mean,

which is nice. It's a nice training camp life. Yeah. And I, again, it feels very, ideal. I think in the best case scenario,

it ends up playing out like it has in Jacksonville, where you have that set of three, four years where you're just searching for the answers. You're being Nick Foles. You're trying to figure out, is Gardner Minshu, the guy? And you cycle through these options and,

like, all right, if we do something drastic and different with our head coach, is that going to work out for us? And even with all of that shuffling, If you get to this place, it can work out fine. No one gives a shit about the Nick Foles contract of Jacksonville right now. And the hope is a year from now can the Panthers be in a similar place.

It's a great comparison, especially with Reich's ties to Peterson. And, yeah, I mean, it's, listen, it's fun covering the team because it's new now. Totally. I was, I think I did mention this to you in Indy because they're a car meeting. I didn't want that same storyline. I've done that enough. You're just kicking the can. You're just kicking the can down the road, the quarterback can.

And eventually, you just want to get, I'm mixing my metaphors, you just want to get off that fucking ride. And you can only do the, we're talking ourselves into Baker Mayfield so many times. And I understand why teams do that. And if you're Frank, or if you're Matt Rule, you're hanging on for deer, life, but a reset was completely necessary. And I think that's what this feels like. And again, if they can kind of navigate through this year when they had to eat a little bit of their

take a little medicine, moving on from Christian McCaffrey, the Robbie Anderson deal, all that stuff, and they can clear that. You get into next year. You got a lot of cap space to work with and you feel like you found the quarterback. You're cooking with guess. I mean, that is ultimately the goal and it doesn't feel like it's that far off if things break the right way. No, and, you know, the schedule looks reasonable.

I mean, the NFC South, you said. I mean, it's terrible. The Bucks won it last year with a losing record. Steve Wilkes almost got the Panthers to Division Ground. I think God, he didn't, though. I mean, if they're picking 18th, 19th instead of the top 10, then we're not having this conversation. And again, you're back on the merry-go-round.

You're just trying to move things in the margins. We're talking about Derek Carr and Carolina. That's exactly right. So a blessing in disguise, I think, to a degree. and now you actually get to start over and maybe get on the correct timeline. And we'll see how it ends up working out. Even the Saints, you know, the best case scenario for the Saints is you're squeezing the last few drops out of a version of the Saints that we've seen before. Aging defense, you know, still played very well at the end of the last season.

But you've got key pieces on that team that are 33, 34 years old. This team is not like that. It's a younger core. And you feel like their best days are ahead of them. And I think it's easier to get excited about a roster like. that than it is to get excited about a team like New Orleans. Yeah. Yeah. That'll be interesting a lot. Looking forward to it.

A lot of things to pay attention to here. I'm very glad I came. Really good to see you. Appreciate the time. Absolutely, man. Come back. Come see us in the fall. Joining us now, the publisher of the Jaguar Report, which is part of the Sports Illustrated Network. His first time on the show, which it's been

too long. It's John Shipley. John, how are you, man? I'm doing good, man. How are you doing? I'm doing good. It's good to be in Jacksonville. An exciting time to be in Jacksonville. beautiful, pristine new facility. I forgot that they had built this. The facility, it's next door to the stadium, but this is a new facility for the Jags. I drove up and I was like, oh, my God.

I totally forgot that this like shining object is where they now did training camp. I'm used to a couple bleachers next to the stadium in the sun. They were literally in a high school last year, like while they were building all this and comparing like that training camp experience like to this one. Like you'd see them getting off school buses and stuff rolling in the practice. it's night and day. It feels like, you know, they're finally, like, they're taking that steps to, like, being a modern franchise,

which, of course, perfect time to do it. It is the perfect time to do it. The right people are in place, and I think that's the most important thing to recognize. This team has had success before. I mean, I covered this team a lot in, like the 2017 range.

I liked that team. It was a fun team. You had all those defensive players. But you always knew that it was effemeral. You always knew that eventually it was going to not shake out because it was defensive-based, and they spent all that money, and it felt temporary.

Of course. doesn't necessarily feel temporary. When you get the right quarterback, you write the right coach slash play caller. You can have sustained success for a long time. And it really does feel like we're on the track of that happening for this franchise. 100%. I mean, like you said, it was defensive, you know, influence before and the past. A lot like turnovers and sacks, stuff that we know doesn't always carry over you to you.

I live in Chicago. Yeah. I've been a Chicago Bears fan in my entire life. It was like the next year they had like a top five defense, but like the turnovers are cut in half. And everybody's like, what's wrong with the defense? Like, it's good. They're just not picking everything off. You're exactly right.

It felt back then like it was lightning kind of caught in a bottle and, let's take advantage of this now. Whereas now, it feels like last year, like when before in this franchise's past, it would have been like the pinnacle of really what they can do. It feels more like a stepping stone. And you talk to people in the building and they were genuinely surprised, like how quickly they took off like last year. Obviously it didn't happen right away. It took them having a big second half of the season.

I think they started three and seven or something like that. But I don't think anybody in the building expected them to be where they were. So, you know, add in the quarterback, add in, you know, the head coach, Doug Peterson. You know, they've really, in my opinion, I've shown at least me that, you know, before I was like, okay, your head coach doesn't really need to be a quarterback guy. Maybe it's a little overblown. Seeing the way Doug works with Trevor, I'm sold on it. You know, if you can get those two guys married together, I think you can have the same success year and year out like they're seeing. This was a team that finished top 10 by back out of the top 10 and a lot of offensive metrics.

They were top 10 efficiency offense over the second half of the season. But it's a lot of smoking mirrors. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It's well-coached in the quarterback playing much better down the stretch. Special play from him at times. Now you drop Calvin Ridley into the mix here. And the hope is it no longer just needs to be smoking mirrors. We don't need to be manufacturing a lot of this efficiency and a lot of this offense

if we can drop a true number one option into the equation. Now, he hasn't played for two years. So I think the best case scenario for this team and this offense is pretty fucking scary. But how likely do you think that best case scenario is to fall in place? I honestly think it's likely. I mean, just knowing the cast of characters, you know, it's an offensive scheme and a coach that does like to spread the ball around. But they'd like to find, yeah, really the mismatch of the week. I know the joke's always been with Kyle Shanahan.

Like he'll put the bulls on like one line back here. Stephen Ruiz, me. Yeah, exactly. Let's roll out the microscope on one specific guy. Exactly. And that's what it felt like here last year. Now you're doing it with a guy with the talent of Calvin Ridley, who, like you said, you don't even necessarily need to do that, but you have the option, too. Looking at this offense, entering like last year, it kind of felt like an island, like miscast toys. That's exactly what it was. Like nobody wanted Evan Ingrammerer, Zey Jones last year.

Christian Kirk's contract was getting killed. Marvin Jones. It felt like, you know, was really on his last leg as a starter. And you fast forward it to this year. And I think last year did a lot to help just, you know, establish. that some of these guys are legit players. Like, you know, Evan Ingram, I think he led all tight ends and catches on RPO's and stuff last year. So, yeah, some of it is smoking mirrors.

But it does feel like it says that the staff knows, like, how to best utilize guys. And when you add in a guy like Ridley, who can be that true number one, I think the odds of it working out are pretty good. Talking to people in the building being here every day, he's been as good as you want him to be? I think he's been better than people expected. I really do. Like, there was a time in the off season where they, I mean, they even publicly said, like,

we had to slow him down some. Like, you know, like you can't be going 100% because you're going to, you know, you've missed so much football. You're going to wear yourself out. And I think, you know, everybody knew he was a talented player as long as he could shake the rust off. But I think the person they've gotten off the field, I think it's been better than they would have expected. And, you know, when you drop a guy into an offense that already had like a thousand-yard guy and, you know, some big money guys are wide receiver, you know, maybe in some case it'd be, you know, a little awkward. You know, how is his pecking order going to be established? But it seems like him, Kirk is A.

Jones have really hit it off, you know, really great. So I think it's been better and people really thought it would be. I went back and watched four or five games from the back half of the season just to, you know, kind of just get a jolt. You know, sometimes it's important just refresh your memory before you spend some time with these teams. And there are elements of Trevor's game that were even better than I previously remembered. I mean, some of the throws that he's willing to let rip just based on body language and feel and just areas of the position that are really, really encouraging. Where do you think he needs to be better than he was last year? Because I think it's very really easy to paint that rosy picture of where this franchise is going.

But he's not the best player in the league yet. He's not one of the even best two or three quarterbacks in the AFC yet. How does that gap get closed in your mind? And that's really the scary thing. You look at all the leap that he took last year. And I think last year was probably like a top two or three season in franchise history in terms of like the sheer volume passing stats. And it's still like, dang, this guy is probably going to get, you know, way better.

I think one thing is just red zone efficiency. Last year, you know, they struggled a lot in the red zone. you know, passing and running game, you know, the short yard stuff stalled out. And I think that kind of made things a little more constricted and condensed for the passing game. But he was somebody who, I mean, his rookie year, that was the same thing. You know, even when he had positive flashes, you were still like, all right, the red zone is the one place he really needs to work on. And it seems like there are so many times, like during a game, you see him trying to fit a ball in like an impossible window that he's just putting everything he has on it. You see that sometimes in the red zone.

You're like, okay, you know, take the windows are smaller. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. You know, like sometimes he doesn't need to rip it in there as much. He can throw a little more touch. I think if they can unlock that part of his game, you know, really the surgical kind of aspect, you know, Red Zone one-on-ones. I think if they can do that, the sky is really, you know, the limit. It's funny because you don't want to push him too far the other way.

He plays so fast, and he's willing to let things rip so quickly. And I think that's why the offensive line plays better with him. It's what you want out of quarterbacks. You want them to have that quick twitch mental and physical aspect to their game. And he 100% does, but sometimes they can get him in trouble. because he is making those quick, aggressive decisions so often that he's going to put balls maybe where he shouldn't. And if you just turn down the dial a tiny bit on that, then he turns into a truly terrifying prospect. Exactly.

The prospect everybody, you know, kind of said that he was. It seemed like a lot of people, you know, when he was coming out, wanting to compare him like the Andrew Lux and the Payton Mannings. But he's just, he's so athletic. He makes so many outrageous, you know, off platform throws and throws on the move. I remember there was a throw last year where he, you know, ran all the way, I think, to the left part of the field and turn around and threw the ball. It felt like it traveled 20 to 25 yards, like a five-yard game. The Christian Kirk was an incredible throw.

And Prest Taylor was like, it was a great throw. I hope he doesn't do it again. That was a Tennessee game. Yeah, it was absolutely ridiculous. It was a terrible decision. I think, again, those are sort of those moments where you don't want to push him too far the other way because you don't want to coach the aggressiveness out of him. But they're just going to be a dozen plays over the course of this season where you just say,

we don't need that. You can scale those back a little bit. Things change. Personnel-wise on offense, I think if Kirk falls, or excuse me, if Ridley falls into place, you feel really good about the past catchers. ETN was really explosive last year. They draft Hank Bigsby. They've got depth and options at those positions.

I mean not depth at receiver, but they've got options. Variability. The offensive line to me is the biggest question for a few different reasons. You're a left tackle, you're starting left tackle, the guy that you've paid in Cam Robinson, suspended for the first five games of the year. You're going to lose him. Walker Little is starting there now, and you have a right tackle. rookie right tackle and Anton Harrison.

The interior of the offensive line and how those spots shake out. They expect Luke Fortner to their center to be better in year two. He was a third round pick last year. But how that left guard situation ultimately gets solved? I know that's a granular concern

at this stage of the calendar. When you're trying to win divisions and potentially Super Bowls, those are the things you got to start thinking about. So how do you think the offensive line shakes out solidifies over the course of the season?

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. When you get to this point, when you're playing the chiefs, the bills, you know, the Bengals, every edge and every really position, you know, matters. And that's definitely, you know, the case with that when you look at that line, you know, that's definitely the big question mark, you know, the big, you know, red X on the depth chart. I personally, it's, it feels like they have a couple different options. I know Tyler Shatley got a lot of run there last year.

Ben Bartch, presumably was her starter. It was hurt for a good chunk of last season. Yeah, exactly. I, Ben Barge, you know, last year's training camp, Shatley opened the camp as a starter, and Barch won the job from him, just outperformed him. and then got hurt. And then I think last week, Doug Peterson said he won't be back until, like, the end of training camp.

So the presumed, like, most talented guy won't be available for a while. And then you have a guy in Walker Little who, I think there's a real possibility of when Cam Robinson gets back in week five, that Walker Little just slides inside to left guard. You know, I don't think they're going to want to take Anton Harrison, you know, off the field after, you know, four starts at right tackle. But I also don't think they're going to want Cam Robinson and his $18, $19 million, dollars whatever he's due sitting on the bench.

That feels like maybe that's the most likely outcome, but the one that makes the most sense to me. It does. It does likely feels strong. You think about the investment you've made in the players you have. Walkwheel is a second round pick and you don't have a guy that is going to prevent him from overtaking that spot. Exactly.

So if those five fall into place, then you have the receiving options, a few less turnover, your quarterback taking a step forward. We're cooking with fucking gas. And that's where you get to. And that's a really fun thing to think about. And it's crazy to think that, okay, like two. years ago when I was covering like Lawrence's rookie camp. You had, you know, La Cron

treadmill and Avon Austin out here running with the starting offense and Carlos Hyde and stuff and just the amount of like personnel turnover and not even all the moves that they made were popular at the time. Like me personally, I killed the Kirk signing when it happened and it was easy to I think we all left and I

think that there's still some validity to that when you look at the contract but this is a team that needed an option and you think about them getting a bargain and Evan Ingram last year. Hopefully it all settles in the right spot. When you're saving in one area, maybe you can overpay a little bit in another area. Exactly. And like you said earlier, when you have the right people, when you have the right coach

and quarterback, that makes decisions like that look like like, like Zay Jones, his contract right now still probably hasn't aged much better. Not everything Brett Veach has done has been magical, but when you have the right guys, we forget a lot of shit that goes wrong. Speaking of stuff that goes wrong, on the other side of the ball,

there's a lot more concern. This was a bad defense last year, objectively bad. I think they finished 30th in defensive DVO.A. John, they added no starters this offseason in either free agency or the draft. Their first two picks in the draft were spent on the offense. They added no starting caliber players in free agency out of this team. They re-signed a bunch of guys.

They brought back their interior players, DeWan Smoot, just resigned last week. Why is this defense with all of the same players going to be better this year than it was last year? Because if this team wants to get where they want to go, it has to be better. Yeah, 100%. I think if you ask them, they think. thing like the natural maturation and just, you know, guys being a second year of a system. There's a lot of young pieces. Yeah, absolutely. And it really did feel like last year, it wasn't until probably a midpoint

of season that they really got a firm grasp for, okay, this is what our guys do best. I know, Deis Williams spent first half of season in the slot when, you know, even though he's a smaller guy, he's just much, you know, more equipped to play outside. But on the other hand, I also wonder if, you know, just from my perspective, maybe they're overconfident in that because that's expecting a big jump from, you know, Trayvon Walker, a big jump from, you know, Devin Lloyd, who, you know, really, like, he struggled enough last year. He got benched for, you know, a third-round pick.

Yeah. And you don't see that happen during the first-round pick's rookie year very often where, like, you could visibly see during the games. The other linebacker, Forsade, or Lleukon, was getting visibly frustrated because he was having to, like, line him up every play and tell him what to do. I mean, the Detroit game was a nightmare. It was just an absolute nightmare where you could just see his head spin in the entire game. It was awful.

their defense. It could spin in the entire game. I talked to my call with their defense coordinator today and we're talking about this specifically. And the development curve with rookies, it's not always linear. You know, he came in that Chargers game.

I vividly remember on this show, we were talking about how well he was seeing and feeling the game. It wasn't just physical ability. It was a sense of where he should be in coverage, stuff that you don't often see from rookies at that position. So to see that area of his game devolve

over the course of the year was kind of strange. But for rookies, the season can wear on you. It's every single week, the workload, the preparation, everything that comes with it. So it feels like even the rhythms of the schedule in year two potentially put him in a better spot than he was in last year. Or at least that's the story they're telling them. Yeah, exactly. That really seems like what they're banking on is that, okay, as opposed to restocking and retooling, let's just hope, you know, guys improve. Like, you know, you look at their pass charts, they lost Arden Key, Key, DeWan Smooth, they brought back.

I know he has akelin's injury. Arden Key, you know, I know he only had, I think, four and a half sacks, but he was their most efficient, you know, pass rush. He put a ton of snaps. I mean, it's just a ton of snaps. He was a key part of the way that they deployed their pass rush last year. And they have nobody to replace him because they're just banking on that natural development from Trayvon Walker, which to me, it feels like, you know, kind of a fine line that if you get to like the end of year and he didn't develop, you're like, you know, shit. That kind of blew up in our face. I, this has happened with some top picks in the draft at that position specifically. Chase Young, even before he got hurt two years ago, did not take that. step forward. And for your plan to come together, when you spend the number one overall pick on a guy, and you've spent in free agency in the way that they have, that contract for Christian Kirk, the one they gave Darius Williams, the money they paid Ray Sean Jenkins, a lot of these guys,

eventually you can't keep doing that. So you have to bank on these young guys developing. When they don't, it removes a pretty important jenga piece from the plan. So I can understand the bet on Trayvon Walker because of how talented he is. But if that step doesn't happen, if that step doesn't happen with Devin Lloyd. If Tyson Campbell doesn't become an all pro level corner, then we're worried about the defense when we get into December no matter how well the offense is playing. No, 100%. Like it really doesn't feel like they've built themselves like a lot of insurance and safety nets that they were almost treating the defense like last year. I was like, okay, get your crap together this year because, you know, the next year is the year that. And I mean, you look at like across the board,

it's not like they haven't like poured resources into the defense. Like everybody's either a first round pick or second round pick or super highly paid. Correct. Everybody. Well, that's when you don't draft well for several straight years. That's what ends up happening. And they re-sign their guys. Yeah.

You know, they brought back to Von Halilton. They brought back Roy Robertson Harris. And I understand that. Those are known quantities rather than fishing in free agency for guys that you don't know or understand. And the risk that comes with that, let's try to bet on in-house development and then doubling down on some of the guys that we get, we know what they bring to the table. Of course.

When you're comfortable with. the team that you're building, the culture you're building, all that stuff. I get that string of bets, but there is risk involved in that. When you're just saying, these guys are going to get better, okay? Yeah. And they need to get better. Exactly. Because if slash when they don't, what are you going to do with them?

Because when's the middle of December, you know, like you can't just go out and get another pass rush or you know? You could do it now if you wanted to. And it really seems like they're banking on Caleb on chase on stuff of any of these guys. They, I don't think, if you look at some of the other teams that have, a need at that position. They seem more likely to me just because they have the resources to go out and get a Justin Houston or a Genevian colony, one of those guys.

This team has like $8 million in cap space. I just don't feel like that's going to be possible for them. I don't either. And especially like, is that true? Yeah. No, it, that's, I want to say. Is it more with the Ingram suspension? The Ingram extension and then the Robinson suspension maybe gets them a little bit more.

I think after signing Smoot there at about, I want to say maybe 13 or so. Which is not a lot of money. No. You need money to operate. in the season. This smooth contract I did not take into account because when I was looking at this number, it was before they had recined. Yeah, exactly. And like you said, you want, you want some money like during, you know, during the season in case you know, anybody gets hurt. You need to make them moved in. And they really don't seem like a team. Like, you know,

everybody says add a pass rush or add a pass rush. You need to add, you know, the right kind of pass rush because for them, they're not going to take Josh Allen off the field at all. Trayvon Walker, they're not going to take off the field simply because they need to figure out if they're right or not. So anybody you add has to be a player that's content with being, you you know, that third guy on the field, both financially and the locker room. And some guys just aren't like, I know, you're Nick and Gawke, I covered him a couple of years ago in Jacksonville. I can firmly say, I do not, he'd be okay with that. The guy I would keep coming back to and we'll see how long he ends up staying on sign,

because the role he's played on other teams is Melvin Ingram. Yeah. That would be the guy I just, you can see it. I can see him doing for this defense what Arden Key did. Maybe not even playing the same array of snaps, but the role, what he's been asked to do on other teams over the last couple of years. that's the one name where I think, if they drop that in,

I would feel a little bit better about where they're at. But based on conversations today and based on the financial situation, I'd be surprised if that happened. Yeah, excited, but surprised.

Yeah, 100%. It really feels like that, you know, chase on is going to be the guy they roll into, which is wild because it, you know,

it seems like since he was like the number 20th overall pick, like, you haven't heard his name. A single time. It's the first time I've thought about him in a while. Exactly. And I can honestly say,

like, him being, He's, you know, got pushed down on the dev chart years ago, but he's somebody who, a rare first round pick who is like, okay, if I'm not starting, I'm okay with playing special teams. That's literally been the only thing that's kept him on this roster the last couple years. And then just doing that somehow landed too, okay, I guess maybe you can be the number three pass rusher. It's very fun for this team to be in this place and be having this sort of conversation about them and be wondering who's going to be the starting left guard and who's going to be the third pass rusher because that's not how it's always been here. And I think that them landing on the guys they did over the last couple of years, getting the number one pick helps.

But bringing Doug in and just having it be that kind of stabilizing force, it's a really exciting time. I'm sure it's a fun team to cover, a fun team to be around. And I hope you're looking forward to a nice season. No, I really, it's definitely much more fun now than it was a couple years ago. I can say that much. John Shipley, thank you very much, my friend. Really appreciate the time.

It's good to see you. It's good to be here. And we'll do this again sometime. Yeah, thank you, man. All right, guys. That's all we have today. Thank you so much to John. Thank you so much to Josh.

Thank you so much to Joe. The 3J is bringing it today. Sincerely appreciate the time with all of them. It's sincerely appreciate you guys checking this out on the weekend. It's been fun to do these on Saturdays. It's so fun to go to these places, to get some insight on these teams, spend the time, just talk a lot of football this time a year. So appreciate you guys spending the time with us as we spend time on the road.

We will be back on Monday with the top 10 D-Js. defenses in the NFL this season are projecting the top 10 defenses, it's going to be less than an hour and 40 minutes this time. We're not going to go as long as we're done the offenses. And it was just getting back and a lot of pent up energy. So we had a good time doing that. I cannot wait to do the defenses on Monday. Until then, sincerely appreciate you guys listening.

Have a good rest of the weekend. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.