The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - TAFS Goes Camping, Vol. 3: Colts, Bengals and Lions

Episode Date: August 12, 2023

In Volume 3 of TAFS Goes Camping, Robert Mays visits with Colts beat writer James Boyd, Bengals beat writer Paul Dehner Jr. and Lions beat writer Colton Pouncy.Follow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow James on X: @RomeovilleKidFollow Paul on X: @pauldehnerjrFollow Colton on X: @colton_pouncySubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThe Football 100, the definitive ranking of the NFL’s best 100 players of all time, goes on sale this fall. Pre-order it here.Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at shopify.com/mays. Go to shopify.com/mays to take your business to the next level today. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today, we have volume three of our going camping series on the Athletic Football Show. Some stops on my training camp tour. We've got the Midwest today. My stretch of the country near where I'm from, near and dear to my heart, went to Indianapolis first to chat with James Boyd, our Colts writer at the Athletic.

I don't know if you guys know this. A lot of stuff happened in Indianapolis. Jonathan Taylor. What's happening with Anthony Richardson? A lot to dig into with James. Chat to with Paul Deiner Jr. Our Bengals writer at The Athletic. Obviously very exciting times in Cincinnati.

Always great to chat with Paul. I have a great time. Every time we have a chance to sit down and talk. So I hope you guys will enjoy that conversation. And then finally, a trip to Detroit where I talked with our Lions writer at the Athletic, Colton Pouncey. Again, a lot of justified excitement around the Lions was there for joint practices with the Lions and the Giants.

So hope you guys enjoy that discussion as well. Let's get to it. Joining us now, it is our cult writer here at The Athletic. James, nice to see you. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. Meet you in person. Yeah. To the football show.

So it feels good to be on it, I guess. I really appreciate you coming on. Yes, sir. Pretty uneventful couple weeks for you here to start training camp in Indianapolis. Yeah, nothing's happened. I mean, I've talked to Zaire Franklin about building on a record setting season last year. But no, no, no, no. There's been a lot going on, namely, Jonathan Taylor.

who we've been on hoodie watch with, like which hoodie will he wear today? I've noticed through my thorough reporting of the situation that he wears blue hoodies inside and black hoodies outside. Which seems counterintuitive. You think black inside without the sun, but I'm not one to judge.

I mean, I don't know what he's wearing as far as his clothes goes, but Colts fans, I would imagine the team probably wants to see him out there in pads at some point before the season starts, but we don't know. I mean, it's been very interesting. around here in Coltsland regarding him and that name. How did we get here, I guess, on a simple level?

If you kind of had to track the timeline of how we arrived at this moment with the Colts and Jonathan Taylor, what do you think are the important kind of touchdown moments? I do think that we track this, honestly. You can check out my story I did on The Athletic the night after, I believe he made the trip request or became public. There's a whole timeline on it because back in January, you know, Chris Ballard's saying we pay our guys. And if he's a special player, we pay him.

He was asked specifically about running backs, paying a running back, and he made it seem like it was going to be a formality. And then I think we saw the market shift outside of Indianapolis. We saw Dalvin Cook. We saw, you know, Josh Jacobs, hip-on-barclay what happened to those guys. And that was all before we spoke to JT again. And by June, his whole, you know, mood or vibe had kind of shifted. He said in April, you know, hey, you know, very Boy Scout answer.

I signed my contract, made an obligation to them. They made one to me. And I was thinking to myself, okay, like, that's very nice, but you don't have to say that. And now it's coming back to bite him because he got a new agent. And then in June, he came out. And for the first time, I feel like since I've been on the beat, going into my second year, JT said something that was, you know, real. And he was like, you know, I see why guys request trades. And I see why guys are unhappy.

And, you know, hopefully they see the value in what I do. And, you know, you fast forward. I think the tweet from Ursa, the initial tweet, talking about, you know, bad faith, you know, arguments by agents and the change in the market and how, you know, the CBA is what it is, that seems to ignite whatever tension was there. And so it went from like this, okay,

the contract hasn't been extended to just in a week. Like the relationship seemed like it just disintegrated and we're in the standoff right now today. it just seems totally unnecessary. It just feel like it was a completely avoidable situation, even if he was upset. And I can understand him being upset, because a lot of star players around the league,

they're taking care of early. When you're a lame duck player coming into your last season, you get rewarded because teams want to avoid that hanging over you. But we've seen things change around the running back position. But at a certain point, he's under contract. If you keep it under wraps, even if there's some bad blood behind closed doors, he plays the season and you figure out after the year.

And for it's become as public as it did, it just changes the entire dynamic in a way that seemed like it never needed to happen. No, not at all. I think, again, it started with that tweet. It was a night tweet I remember because I was watching. I would love to just be in his brain for a minute and just think, I need to say this. Like, there is value in me saying this. This is going to be a positive thing for me and for the Indianapolis Colts franchise

if I press tweet on this tweet. And I think he opened Pandora's box, and that's Jim Ursa, I'm referring to. I just felt like after that tweet went up, all bets were kind of off, and you could really see people digging their heels on either side. And I think the biggest thing that kind of came out of that was the agent firing back at Ursa, not a good move, I don't think, on any level,

because why would you publicly go at the guy who has to pay your guy? That doesn't make much sense to me. And Jim Ursay is unpredictable, sometimes. You could say that again. Yeah, so ruffling the feathers of a guy like that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to go to that to any owner, quite frankly. But for him, it's like you really don't want to push his hand because he will, to his credit, like he'll say things and talk to us and he'll always speak on his decisions, speak his mind. But again, it kind of went from

this behind the scenes thing where Chris Ballard is the one saying, you know, all the right things as the GM. I mean, a couple days before everything kind of jumped off. First day of a Report Day training camp. Chris Ballard is saying, oh, you know, the market is what the market is. We love JT. And playing it safe, both sides. Very good GM work. And then like, boom, the owner comes in and the other agent comes in and like they're fighting on Twitter. And it just, again, disintegrated. It became very high schoolish, I thought. And I mean, this time last week, or last weekend, we were watching a bus. And even that whole theatrical part of it was unnecessary. Like, why would you have your bus pull up to camp and then JT walks onto the bus. Everyone can see it and we're all in this bus watch. All this could have happened, you know, in an office building when no one's around. But that's kind of how Jim Mersey does things.

And obviously the post bus interview. Post bus. Yeah, I mean. That's where we are, though. Robert, what was your reaction to the quote? You know what I'm talking about the, if I die two nights and JT's out of the league, no one will remember us no one will care

Jim Mersey has seen a lot of football he's been around the league for a very long time he's seen players come and go and what he said is probably true yeah he wasn't wrong yeah it's you don't need to say it it's just not necessary and that's my thing is that it makes it difficult on the people

in your building because now you're making Shane Steichen's job harder you're making Chris Ballas job harder for no reason there's just no reason to put yourself in this position and that's what's frustrating about it is that You have first-year head coach. The story about Colts Camp, and it's a story we'll get into at least a little bit,

should be about Anthony Richardson. Yes. It should be about how exciting your top five quarterback is. It should be about the ground swell of optimism that is surrounding this guy right now. You finally have that centerpiece at the position again after Andrew Luck. You finally took a swing on a guy. There's no more just kind of shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

This is something where it feels like there's real direction moving forward. And instead of that, sucking up all of the oxygen. Now everyone is worried about what the owner is saying about the running back. And that's just an unfortunate thing to do to yourself, for it to be self-inflicted in that way. Yeah, I mean, to me, it's kind of become like a routine where you basically have to chart or at least put a tweet out every single time, every single day about JT. You have to ask every single day about JT.

Yes. And I know St. Stuyangin probably gets annoyed and not even against him. he's in a bad spot because he's the one, like, leader that has to kind of answer for all of this every day. Every day. Like, I would honestly prefer to ask these questions to the GM or the owner, but, hey, you're the head man until further notice until we get him again. And so you have to answer this every single day. And then not even the fact that he's the head coach and he does nothing to do with this.

It's his first year. Yes. It's his first week. Exactly. So he has no, you know, previous relationship with. J.T. with the team, what he means to the team. Like, I'm sure he knows, like, analytically what he means to the team. But, again, it's been this awkward kind of, like, source spot for camp.

And then us as reporters, we have to ask players about it, and they have to kind of beat around the bush. And everyone now, everyone's job is harder now because they're having to deal with this. And it was completely unnecessary. But no one's job is harder at the moment than JT himself, because I read the CBA. I spent two days going through. You can check that out on the athletic as well. and there is no way out. Like there's no, because he hasn't reached that point where he's been

franchise tagged, all of this is like a year too early for him to have any leverage. He has zero leverage whatsoever. Yeah, I mean, you could argue that Josh Jacobs and Sequin Barclay didn't have much leverage, but JT has none. At least they can hold out. Exactly. Because it's not going to hurt them financially. Exactly.

And that's the problem with any of these guys on the tag, but especially guys off the tag, is if you're the GM, if you're a front office, the tag is, tag is such a low number that why would I bother myself with this? I can just tag them in the end. Why would I worry about any of this? And I think that there's just a disconnect between the agent's side of this and the team side of this when it comes to running back contracts right now. I think it's creating a lot of tension. And we'll see where it goes from here. I think the most tension that was created here was because, and this was a revelation to me after it came out, and RSA said it himself, they haven't even offered him an extension. So that's the part I think that really made JT upset.

it's not that you low-balled me, it's that you didn't even give me a ball to play with. You just took it and went home. And so I think he would have a better argument if he were coming off, you know, back-to-back thousand-yard seasons or back-to-back-all-pro seasons, but you have the injury that kept you out six games, that we still don't know what it officially is.

I mean, we asked Shane Stuyck and Point Blank last week, what is he on pup for? And he told us verbatim, he's dealing with something right now. I'm not going to get into that. So we heard like the rumors about the back. Is it still the ankle? We don't know what it officially is.

And I think when J.T. finally steps in front of a mic and answers questions from us, it will not be the best time because we're going to have to ask him a lot of hard questions. Like I alluded to earlier, JT has been very team-oriented in all of his answers. He's the guy who says all the stuff that you would want him to say as a coach. But now I think whenever he gets back in front of a mic, he's going to have to, for the first time in his career, really talk about real things other than, you know,

for the shoe, which he would drop during his interview sometimes. And I'm like, that tells you how much of a, you know, Boy Scout team guy. Team first guy. But obviously it's kind of shifted to a point where he's like, I'm in survival mode. I feel like I want to be rewarded. But the bottom line is they own his rights and do not have to pay him significantly,

not only this year, but the next year if they tag, I'm going to get a second time. Yeah. And that's the problem at that. position compared to others. Let's say Michael Pittman and had the monster year. He won an extension. It's easier. It's harder for the team to play a hardball with the guy. Robert, we have so many

fans, Colts fans who keep asking like, well, MPJ is every day, every day, and he's happy and he's not upset. And I'm like, no, he knows. Like, he's going to get paid regardless. Like, it's an entirely different situation. He's a top 30-ish receiver. J.T's the top five, top three running back. You're making $18 million

a year if you're Michael Pittman. It doesn't matter what happens. So he's probably thinking, well, that they tag me. I'm getting $23 million on the tag next year. If they don't tag me, I'll probably get $20 million from them. If they don't want to pay me, somebody else will. And I looked at the market for next summer's wide receivers. He's probably a top five receiver in that wide receiver. And that I'm sure there are names that aren't even going to get there. T. Higgins, other guys that might help him because of the supply and demand of wide receivers go up. I could see him

getting a Christian Kirk-like deal because of his position and just the value they put on wide receivers versus the value they put on running back. Absolutely. But I think him not getting him not getting an extension yet or them even talking about it and Jonathan Taylor not. From what I understand that there's kind of been a moratorium on contract extensions, period, heading into this year. You have a new coaching staff that has no familiarity with any of these guys. And they weren't four games last year. Yes.

I was there. No one is getting rewarded after that season. And that includes Jonathan Taylor. And I get being frustrated if you're Jonathan Taylor after the season you had in 2021 and saying, I'm not worth paying. But that just feels like the mindset that they have right now. is that we're in wait and C mode. We need a lot more out of every single guy on this roster

before we start handing out any more extensions. That's kind of what it feels like, and that's kind of what I've heard. Yeah, absolutely, and that's what I've heard too. And I think the biggest thing is just feeling out Anthony Richardson's first year. And that's the part we haven't talked about is with this JT, hold in, hold out, is he really heard, is he not really heard, whatever the case may be. He's not out there.

And so that bigger picture-wise hurts the development of Anthony Richardson. Now, he looked really good today. you picked a good day to be here and he's showing strides and moving the right direction but a lot of that rPO stuff that we're seeing you just wonder how much different would it look with the guy as dynamic as j t back there and you know rPO is a chemistry feel thing and that guy's not there to build that that hurts your main guy the guy you hope to be your new paid manning and you luck type so we'll see how it goes but again it's one of those just awkward elephants in the room that you know everyone's going to just act like it's next man up but it's not

next man up necessarily when he's a top five guy at his position. I get it. They could, in theory, like replace him, like with a bevy of running backs and make it work, but no one's going to be JT. That's the part that I want to drive home. He's a great player. You might feel like you don't want to pay the guy more than you have to, but he would be very, very valuable on his own, but also in the backfield with Anthony Richardson. Yeah, and the hope is that because what Richardson can do to lift the run game, you can get by with a lesser. running back. But it would obviously be more dynamic if you had one of the most dynamic players in the league back there, hopefully back healthy. So what have you heard about their impressions of Anthony

Richardson so far? What have your impressions been? Because you're right. I was here today. He made a handful of throws that I think got people really excited. Everything about, so we're taping this on the 6th of August. Saturday, the 5th, there was a thing he precks under the lights last night. Apparently he looked fantastic. And those have been the reviews, is that they are extremely happy with where he's I would be shocked if he wasn't the week one starter. And we know about the ceiling and the when the ceiling outcomes and what those potentially look like. And again, it's August 6th.

Everyone's in a good mood. No one's lost the game yet. It's all roses everywhere. But it does feel like there is a real ground swell of optimism about where he is and where he could potentially go. Absolutely. I think that we're starting to see a wider gap. I want to say through these, what, eight practices,

he's gotten 20 plus more first team reps than Gardner Minchin. The gap is a little bit bigger than it was just even a week ago. This is with Anthony Richardson missing a practice due to the nose procedure he had. And shout out to Colts PR and the Colts team for tweeting that out. And I was thinking to myself, like, you should never start a tweet with, you know, Colts quarterback, Anthony Richardson undergoes procedure. We're like, what the heck is going on? But he's looked pretty good.

And I think the team itself feels more pressure than he actually does. He's been pretty calm. Even after he had a rough day, I believe it was last Tuesday, right after the no surgery, it was like 5 or 13, missed a bunch of throws, even missed a bunch of just one-on-ones where you're like, man, like, what's going on? Maybe it was the surgery and just being back a couple days after that. But afterward, it wasn't like he was panicking. It wasn't like he was freaking out.

It wasn't like he was super dejected. He was just like, you know, I'm learning just to keep it even, keep it cool. And when you talk to other teammates around him, they've also the same thing. He carried himself with certain poise. And I think the personality we've seen this early on throughout like the combine and stuff who's kind of outgoing, kind of out there, all the players say he's pretty like, you know, to his self and not, you know, outwardly out there. And I think that'll come with time being a quarterback.

But he's pretty reserved. But then you see those moments throughout, you know, camp where he's loose, he's relaxed, and he's very, very confident. And it just seems like in his mind, at some point I'm going to figure it out. And so he's not too worried about it. And I know when he really gets out there, even in like a preseason setting, there's going to be just that vitriol of if he makes a great throw. He's great. If he doesn't, it's going to be that hate of, oh, my gosh, he's terrible.

But it seems like he just handles it with such ease. And to be 21 and to basically have a franchise being placed on your shoulders, that's something that you love to see. And then you always have, even when he was kind of more up and down, he's been more even lately. Robert, when he was up and down, he still had like the best throw of the day, just not the best overall day. And so if you're the coach, you're probably thinking, again, sealing potential, will he be better than Gardner-Menschu by week one? Maybe not. But it's cost benefit at that point. Exactly.

Like, what are you actually playing for? Is it for wins or is it for trying to make sure that this guy is ready to be your future guy, which obviously it should be the latter? It's for progress. I think that's what you're playing for. You're playing for progress and you need him to play in order for him to progress. And what's so encouraging about this, beyond schematics, you know, the idea of him dropping into the J-1-Hert's role and Shane Steak and knowing how to use a quarterback who can use his legs as a weapon, that's exciting. What I'm more encouraged by, what I think Colts fan should be more encouraged by, is that we've seen a coach who understands what a development plan should look like for a quarterback at this position. It's not about getting the most out of him within the offense in day one. It's understanding, all right, well, I can put a a little more on him now. I can put a little more on him now. And getting a guy from point A where he's the centerpiece to a run-centric team that just gets by to he's a guy worth $50 million. He's a guy who can essentially get you to the doorstep of a Super Bowl. And that's the most exciting part is that we've seen a coach oversee that progress from a quarterback last year. You don't need to talk yourself into this at all. We have seen it happen. So that process and what

that looks like for them, I think that's what they're going to try to do. trying to keep him along at the right pace and understand that he doesn't need to be that guy now, but we have a plan for how to make him that guy in the future. Absolutely. And they've been very cognizant, even on social media, of not pushing him out there a ton, little clips here and there. They have a name that started officially. If you're asking right now on August 6, who I think will be the starter week one,

it probably is Anthony Richardson, just given what's kind of transpired and the progress he's shown. But again, they're feeling like we don't have to rush this, but we also, in a sense don't want to be too cautious where we're not giving this guy an opportunity to make mistakes learn and grow and so far he doesn't seem to react much either way I mean he had to throw indoor last week where he rolled left and Twitter got mad at me because I said it would have been a sack it was like he held the ball for forever but he rolled and he kept the play alive so to speak

but he did just rip one you know on a scene just deep ball to Alec Pierce probably like 60 yard flick of the wrist It was easy. And after, you know, Alec Pierce makes his incredible catch, dive into the end zone, crowd goes crazy, he's just stone cold.

Like, he doesn't even react. And so you see a little bit of reactions here and there, but like the good plays, the bad plays, he's pretty even. And again, won't let himself get too hard

too low. And it seems like the guys really appreciate having him and even just the defensive guys getting their perspective about it they're saying, like, yeah, it is a little bit different

when you know there's a guy back there who can be sort of like Lamar Jackson. who are like Josh Allen and a guy who can extend plays and it makes your life harder. And they're kind of laughing because it's like we saw this last year and almost every single game we played and now they have to see it too, you know, these opposing defenses when they see our guy. So it's been exciting.

And I guess from my own personal standpoint, I got to play basketball with Anthony Richards. So I can tell everyone out there. He's very athletic. Offense, I think we kind of know who the pieces are. The receivers, I think are pretty set. I think hopefully Josh Downs will be their slot receiver. I think we could see them use more three receiver sets. than we've seen this team used in the past.

The line, I think, is a chance to be a lot better than it was last year. Bernard Raymond, I expect to take a step forward at left tackle. The right guard is still a concern. I think they would probably tell you that. Other than that, I think that all is pretty settled. On defense, I have questions. Shack Leonard is healthy? He's healthier.

Like, he's not 100%, but he does look good, though. I will say that. He's practicing, which is certainly progress in the right direction. He's reacting. He looks like he's moving more fluidly. Now, I'm not like, you know, a doctor's. or something like that. But he is moving better than he was last year

when he kind of rushed his way back to the field. Because even when, I believe he might have been like the Washington game or something like that, he came back and he had a pick. The pick literally just came to him. It wasn't like he made some great play. And of course, that moment becomes the story of the game. Oh, he's bad. He made a play.

But it was more so if you look at the tape, I'm like he's still not quite himself. And he would later admit that in the moment, it was kind of like, why are you bringing this up? You know, but I think that he had to kind of humble himself and really trust the doctors because he wanted to be himself so soon. But I think that there are signs of that.

He's progressing. He's now getting into the 11-11 action. He's reacting. I almost had a pick today in seven-on-seven. But he looks way better. And even if he isn't fully 100% the maniac, if he can get back to be a 90% of that player,

he's still going to be a great player in the NFL. I mean, he was, to be honest, Hall of Fame trajectory to start. I mean, four-time All-Pro, three-time first-team all-pro. So he looks really, really good. But the biggest question for that defense, though, is the second here. The front feels like they've invested in the pieces.

But Buckner's not practicing right now. He'll be back. We know who Grover Stewart is. They sign Samson-Eppucam and Free Agency. We know exactly what he is. For better or for worse, you know exactly what he is. They hope that Quitty Pay, when healthy, can be more of an impact player for them this year. But they've got enough pieces up front to kind of piece it together.

The secondary is a whole other conversation. So theoretically, I guess Juju Brent would be the starter on one side of corner. You know Kenny Moore is going to be in the slot. And the safety is they have options. Rodney Thomas, Julian Blackman, and then Nick Scott, or Nick Cross, who was the third round pick for them last year. They've got those pieces. The other corner, I mean, you could tell me five names and you could make up half of them, and I would probably not know who they are at this point.

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to be honest, Juju's even playing catch-up because he's only practiced twice. Now. That's the best case scenario, and he hasn't practiced it all, and he's a rookie. He's a practice a lot. Darius Rush missed a ton of time. And these are guys we thought would be competing on that starting spot on the outside. But I would say if the season started today, the starters would be Kenny Moore of seeing the slot. But Dallas Flowers and Darryl Baker Jr., who are two undrafted guys last year.

I don't think our listeners are very familiar with one of those guys. And again, you can think highly of them. And I will say that, like, Daryl Baker, I know you might not know about him. Dude has been bawling throughout camp. I've heard very good things about him so far. He has looked lights out. He's also an older guy. I think he spent six years at Georgia Southern.

And the thing about it, though, is, like, you can have all the confidence in the world. You can believe in these guys that can flash during camp. But on, you know, Sundays, you would hope that a guy like Julius Brent who you drafted that high could be a day one starter for you and get out there and get his reps in. Because as much of the offense is growing, I mean, if you can, you know, throw him and Darius, out there and feel like by midseason we got our cornerbacks for the future that would be great for this franchise yeah now we'll see but it definitely is a weird dynamic because it feels like okay how much do you give credit to darrell and Dallas for making plays and how much do a lead do you

give them if you're the coaching staff when you know like hey we did draft these guys to get reps and play i don't think it matters i like i truly don't think it matters if you get if we don't see Judea Brent's until week eight and then he finally steps into the starting lineup, I think you have to temper your expectations for what this team is and what really matters. And it's so tempting to be like, oh, he's a second round pit. Why isn't he starting? Everyone's slow down. If we get to the midway point of the season and the quarterback looks good, none of the rest of the shit matters. I mean, we're at a place where you have to feel good about where you are. Robert, if the quarterback is good, my life will be great. I mean, that's the only thing that matters. I mean, we've talked about,

a lot of different topics this off season. And I've enjoyed, you know, diving into the different backgrounds of players and things like that. I mean, you can only write so much about J.T. and Anthony Richardson. But the story is and always will be Anthony Richardson until he is no longer a cult. And so for better or worse, you know, I hope that's for a decade plus. Hopefully that's 15 years from now. Exactly.

But the bottom line is, yeah, everyone's going to be on his, you know, agenda and keeping an eye on what's going on with him. And just, again, how does he react to the inevitable humbling he will get from the NFL? because no matter if you're like, you know, All-American Andrew Luck coming in and everyone knows you're going to be great from the start, you're still going to get humbled. And so that's the part where I'm curious to see how he'll bounce

back when the narrative changes from being, you know, sort of the golden kid with the golden arm and, you know, the big body and all he could do all these things too while he just threw three picks today. Yeah, yeah, they scored eight points against the Texans. Yeah, I mean, which you know what? Those games may happen.

And it's important to understand and keep perspective in the moments where they do. Well, I'll tell you what, my first NFL game I recovered was last year that season opener at Houston, which was a tie. So I'm with guys. Yeah, I'm with a bunch of other reporters who've done this for much longer than me, Zach Kiefer, for one of them. He's saying like, yeah, never been a part of a tie. So, you know, I guess you can't get too many more weird things to happen with this franchise.

But overall, the story is AR, and again, he seems to be just someone that is easy to root for. Very humble dude. And I think the thing that I want to dive into when I get to know him a little bit better and just really when I guess all the lights and cameras and stuff or preseason are kind of out of the way and you're just talking to a guy on like a random Thursday, you know, how much does he study this? Because the one thing I don't want to get lost in this is he's extremely talented.

I think what this is the gifted guys, you often overlook like how much he's actually working to get better. That's why you can get excited. Exactly. That's why I don't think you see like a day like today if he's not burying his playbook and trying to learn the game. Like, yes, he can do all the things that, you know, you can't teach. but if he learns to do the stuff that you can teach,

then what you have in your hands. You have a guy who can be a top five player potentially in the NFL. Superstar. And the reason you made the bet on him. Yep. James, thank you very, very much for the time, sir. Very good to chat with you. Yeah.

I really appreciate it. Nice to meet you as well. Hopefully we don't have any more bus updates for you anytime soon. All right. We'll see. Appreciate the time, my friend. Joining us now, it is our Bengals writer here at the Athletic. It's Paul Deena Jr.

Paul, how you doing? Robert, it's good to have you here. It's good to be here. Yeah, man. We're in Cincinnati. We're sitting in the press box of now it's Paycor Stadium. It is Paycor Stadium. Make sure you pronounce all the sponsors correctly.

It's very important these days. Sorry. I punched in Paul Brown Stadium when I was getting here. So I want to make sure that I'm getting it right these days. Very excited to be here. Always good to stop by Cincinnati as part of the training camp travels as they are. One of the premier franchises in the NFL now, one of the premier teams in the NFL now. How to describe it?

I mean, it's weird to hear it said out loud, but I don't know how you view it. any other way right now. These things can be fleeting, but when number nine's here, it doesn't feel so fleeting. Well, let's start with that. Where are we at with the calf injury, the outlook, the concern, just kind of give me the download on where things stand on August 7th. I know more about the calf muscle, Robert than I ever thought I would. I spent 48 hours talking to anybody that could possibly have ever known anything about calf

injuries and quarterbacks with calf injuries and athletes with calf injuries. And the bottom line is everything should be fine. And if everything goes to plan and the timing of it, while not super, is actually as good as you could ask for if you were going to sustain a calf injury during some portion of the season. Because what happens with these things and what they're most nervous about, rightfully so, is recurrence. Is that's where you then eventually have to start back at square one after coming back and that's what causes the ones that linger all season. But hopefully they think he will go through this. They have no need to rush him back. It'll just be the latest August that he doesn't do anything because it's every single August

he's had has been like this. We had the pandemic year. You had the ACL injury. You had the appendectomy last year. And now you have the calf injury that have all basically taken his lead up to the season away. And so as long as, you know, he feels 100%, then wait another week or two after that, to be sure, then he'll be back at that timeline. They keep using the word several weeks. I think the expectation from people, everyone around here is that he'll be back from week one. I guess except Jamar Chase, if you listen to him, you know, say that he wants Joe to take his time and not even go to Cleveland. What I was told today is, would we like him back a little earlier from practice before week one? Sure. Do we need

them back before that? No. Correct. And I think that's the correct mindset. Yes. Because this team when you get to a certain place in your team building process, when you get to a certain place with the expectations, it's about making sure that you've dotted every eye, you've crossed

every team, you've made sure that everything is in place and you're planning for potential worst case scenarios and downsides. When you have a Super Bowl caliber roster, when you're ready, that's how you have to think about it. And so I think that there's just no benefit to rushing him back because this is about what happens on January 15th, not what happens on September 8th. And that's been their mindset and everything that they've done.

Really, I mean, the way they've built this team, the way that they have approached everything through the offseason, you know, maybe the lightest off season we've ever seen it for a team this past year. And guys have come back motivated and feeling that. But the burrow thing is the same way. It's you can't have a quarterback sustained this injury and it have less. less of an effect on where you are, where your current basement is and where your ceiling is because what is there to add on to? Is he going to go out there week one and not know how to throw to Jamar Chase or T. Higgins or

Tyler Boyd or not know, have a line that is basically very much the same with Orlando Brown now there at left tack? I mean, we're talking about Irv Smith's chemistry. Like that's all this is. I mean, Joe Burrow can go out there and not have taken a snap and be just fine throwing a back shoulder to Jamar Chase on third and 12 against Cleveland. I'm sure there are some wrinkles schematically that they're putting in like there is every offseason.

But for the most part, I feel like the large transformations that this offense is undergone, they've already happened. So I think it's all tweaking at this point and you can figure that out in the fly. The other looming question with Joe Burrow is what's going to happen with Joe Burrow's contract. Do we think that this is inevitable over the next month or so here? Do we think it happens before the season? What's the latest that you've heard about how that's going to be?

get resolved. I think I always worry saying things like inevitable, but it feels that. It has felt like that for a long time. It's just been a matter of getting it done, finishing it up. They have so much business and they're trying to work their way through it right now, little by little. I mean, this is, you know, I've been calling it the extension summer, but really it's the business summer. Katie Blackburn has done a fantastic job here of keeping them always in solid cap and cash health and always in a good place where they can always feel flexible and versatile and able to add if they need to every offseason. This is her Sistine Chapel. It is.

This is her having to do everything. The quarterback. Are you going to do the receiver? Logan Wilson. What are you going to do with Lail Collins who's sitting out there of Joe Mixen restructure? All of these core culture pieces that are going to be entering third potential contracts that are in contractors. It's all of their success has come to a head right now sitting kind of on the desk of Katie Blackburn and Duke Tobin to work through this. And they are working the way through it.

But, you know, they said it very clearly at the luncheon right before they started the preseason. And that was it all is about everybody knows what the main thing is here. Getting that taken care of. That being number one and then kind of going from there. They're kind of doing that, but they're really mostly going from easiest to heart. artist. They kind of gone to did the mix and pay cut was easy. The little Hendrickson, they're, they're nesting, Robert, is what they're doing. Okay. So now they got the Logan thing was always, Logan Wilson was going to be easy to do. Yeah, he was a made free agent after the

season. This was, it made sense. He wanted to be here. They wanted him here. There was a very easy market to pinpoint for him. It was, it was not hard business. The hard business now starts. And getting Burrow done is so, they, they want to do that first. They want to have that settled because then you can start making the other decisions. And the T. Higgins thing is probably just a step down from borough it's the biggest i mean it might be even more difficult it is the most difficult because i don't i don't think burrow's hard yeah i think burrow is challenging and what is there a unique way to structure that they want to go with do they is it going to be years is burrow going to be i mean we we can we'll end up analyzing that to death i'm sure as we do but to me the real question

the philosophical question that they had to answer in what direction they wanted to go as a franchise going forward the pivot point was t higgins it was do they want to try to be are we going to pay all these guys? Are we going to go T. Higgins top of the market, is Jamar definitely top of the market next year, Joe top of the market. Are you really going to go and have all of that money in three

guys? Or are you going to say we're paying Joe Burrow to be able to bring wide receiver two along? Yeah. If you have Joe and Jamar and whatever you're working in the slot or drafting forward, then do you should you then count on

him to make wide receiver two happen? That could be a first round pick that you maybe get in exchange for T. Higgins in some kind of a tag and trade. But the bottom line being, you know, are they going to, or is it, look, T's our guy. Those people in power here at the Bengals have been draft develop, retain your star since day one. It's who they want to be. It's a little bit different than when you're shopping in this quarterback guy. They've never had to do that before. No question.

This is, well, everything about this franchise right now is basically unprecedented for what they've had to deal with, and this is the decision. But yeah, it's the Higgins decision is the one that I think we learn the most about how they want and are willing to go forward. They've put pieces in place. Everything they've done, though, Robert, like suggests they want to go that route because they have built the young defense with a pipeline at premium positions to offset the, you know, surplus that you're going to have to pay out on offense now to have the young defense

that's providing you that. Cam Taylor Britt, second round, DJ Turner, second round pick at cornerback, Miles Murphy at Edge. These are positions that are pipeline positions. They're not even starting. Cam is, but DJ Turner, Miles Murphy, they have Joseph Osai in the pipeline at Edge. They have a pipeline of players. They drafted its safety to offset that

and to have a young, ascending defense where some of these older, more expensive pieces can walk into their third contract and go somewhere else, which we saw with Bond Bell, and then they had to let Jesse Bates go because they couldn't come to agreement there, and then the money flips. I think that's their idea.

It looks to be how they're building, but we won't know for sure until we see what happens at T. And I'll be curious what the borough structure looks like. Yeah, and how many mechanisms are within the contract for them to create money in any given year? And are they going to do that? Is there going to be a year down the road where, yeah, we'll convert it all,

and we'll have him have a $15 million cap it this year. They'll give us $30 million more in cash, whatever the numbers are, and we'll put that back into the roster. Because that, we haven't seen that. That's a bridge that we haven't crossed yet with this team. They've spent in free agency anyways they never have, and they've been a little bit more aggressive in some areas, but this is going to be a new frontier,

is how they build around this deal and how much money they're willing to show out. They can afford all these guys if they wanted to, right? If they wanted T. Higgins, they could pay T. Higgins, but it's a question of how creative are you willing to get with the cap stuff. Do you want to take a guess at the most guaranteed money that Bengals have ever given out in the contract? It was Orlando, right? Correct.

It's like $30 million. $31. They gave Carson in 05, like $30, back in 05 money. And Lander Brown 31. That's it. They're going to, I mean, it's going to be blown out of the water. They're going to do things they've never done because they're doing things that they've never done on the field with a player they've never had. And that's my question.

With the talent that you have. the success being unprecedented, the situation being unprecedented, does the financial mindset go into an unprecedented place? And you think the answer is yes. I absolutely think that's going to be the answer because it has to be. Yeah. I mean, that's the way they haven't been hesitant. I mean, they have been backbuilding for this for two years now. I mean, they have spent, on average, they have been cash spenders in the second quartile, somewhere between 8 and 16, almost almost every year when they were just operating normally. The last two years, they fell down into the bottom quartile because they were backbuilding

cash. Yeah. We joked about Paycor Stadium. We can joke about the practice fields at Kettering Health. We can joke about the sponsorships all over the place. That's on purpose. You think that they wanted after 20 years to all of a sudden take Paul Brown's name off the stadium?

No, because Mike said last year, Mike Brown said last year, I think we might have even talked about it here last year. this is how he would have wanted it because this is how you have to keep the team together. You have to be able to pay the quarterback. You have to have the cash. You have to do all these things. It's all part of it. They've been preparing for this to do things they've never done before.

I fully expect them to do the thing that they've never done before. The question will always be about what comes after that. And when I say they can keep seeing it, it's a reasonable number. If he wants $27 million a year and there's a team that's going to give it to him, there's no way they can do that. So a tag and trade in that situation potentially makes sense. But they have either way a run in them right now. And that's what it is. I mean, this team is built to do it.

There's no denying it. And that's what they're focused on. It's honestly why I feel so comfortable spending a lot of oxygen on this conversation because the roster, it's like, okay, they brought back both coordinators, which is kind of crazy considering the success that they've had. On offense, they have the best line they've had here by far. Yeah. And it's not just the players.

and obviously spent big on Orlando Brown, he's the best left tackle that they've had. It's that now, when Wild Collins comes back, they have a swing tackle that was like the savior last year, because Jonah Williams is going to get that job of right tackle. And Jackson Carman, who he's kind of battling with there, now he's a backup guard instead of a star that you've had to rely on. So just so many different layers,

and you see that in other positions. They're deeper at corner than they've ever been here since Lou Aniromo has been here. They're deeper at edge rusher than they've ever been here since Luana Rumo has been here. So so much of the right, roster is proven, you have continuity, and it's deeper and better in a lot of important areas. So I don't, there's not a ton to really talk about.

Yeah. I touched on this earlier when I talked about, you know, building for January, when they built this defense this way, they have spent seven consecutive day one or two draft picks on defense, seven straight. So, and those guys, for the most part. the majority are not starting. Those are when attrition occurs in December, they aren't pulling guys off the street.

They aren't pulling someone unproven. They're pulling a first round pick from Clemson and Miles Murphy off the bench. They are calling on a guy who was a starter for multiple years and, you know, renowned for his intelligence of Alabama and Jordan Battle, a third round pick, Joseph Osai, who we've seen. These are guys just sitting around in the pipeline. They're not nobody's. They're not seventh round throwaways or UDFAs.

those are guys that they can go to when attrition occurs built to win in January. And the same thing you mentioned with the depth on the line is a part of that too, because the reason you can really look at it, and this is obviously a massive oversimplization, but if the Bengals aren't playing multiple backup linemen, including backup right tackle each year, each of the last two years, they have a championship. maybe too.

Honestly, I mean, if you're not playing if it isn't Max Sharping trying to block Chris Jones in the AFC championship game, because Alex Kappa, who was playing at a pro bowl level, went down a couple of weeks prior. If Alex Kappa plays, do the Bengals win that game? We could argue that till we're blue in the face,

but I'd say at least probably, you know, because that he blew up their entire game plan. As simple as that. The reason they signed Alex Kappa was to do things like block Aaron Donald and block Chris Jones, and they didn't have them, and it cost them. The same thing in the Super Bowl. They have guys out there that can't do it because it's backups against guys like Aaron Donald. If you can go to your backups and it can be somebody who is proved.

They were your starters a year ago. Or were your starters. Then maybe that's what gets you the one last play. That's what gets you the championship. And they're still in the rookie quarterback window enough where they can afford to have that. depth right now. So I'm not going to say there's pressure in a win now type thing around here because I do believe there's a certain amount of Burroughs career is a window. But it's building up because you can't on paper line it up much better than they have it right now. It's going to get

harder. There's no denying. No question. T. Higgins, whatever he's going to make, if you do bring him back, you know you're going to have to pay him more in a couple of years. They're all getting, Logan Wilson. Like they all got expenses. And the idea of we're going to refurb. We're going to refurb. fill the defense with all these this cheap talent that sounds great but till they miss yeah and teams just don't stay hot in the draft over a 10 year stretch they've done extremely well in drafting and developing their own players but if those guys don't pan out in the way that you hope then that plan starts to deteriorate a little bit so i think it's even if you're confident and optimistic about their outwork over the next two three seasons it still can be true that this is the best chance because you

haven't paid everybody yet. You talked about a couple of years ago, the Bengals proving that they could microwave a defense. Yeah. And they did. And they microwave one hell of a one, you know, with all of the, the mid-tier free agents that they went out and signed. Very well done.

You can't do that now. No. That's what this eliminates. It eliminates your coverage. It eliminates your insurance policy. There's no net underneath it now. You got to hit. Like, these guys, once the money flips over and you let, let's say, DJ

Reader walks after this year. Let's say, you know, you have any of the other number of guys. Let's say Chita Baye Wuzier walks after this year. It might be possible. That's the whole point of drafting DJ Turner. They've plotted, you know, I mean, well, they don't really have an answer for Reader, but that's another conversation. Yeah, that's the one that I'd be worried about. It's worried,

but he's also going to be a 30-year-old defensive tackle. Those guys don't have longevity. So you have all these questions. If your replacement doesn't hit, you can't go out and pay in free agency for the mid-tier free agent because you have used all that money elsewhere. So that's the scary part about it is you got to keep hitting.

But I do think eventually you do feel like, I mean, it would be the most stunning thing ever if Perot doesn't eventually break through and get one. I mean, well, you just keep, and that's her philosophy. Duke Tobin's speaking open. He's like, look, I'm not a all-in guy. He's not going to be the Rams or the bucks. That's not his style. He is going to be, I'm going to put a solid team around this quarterback every single

year. I'm not going to give up future years. I'm not going to throw a bunch of money into all at once because I want to feel like I'm putting a really solid. And eventually, the ball will bounce your way. The call won't go against you. The ball will get caught, whatever it is, and you'll get that championship because you have that guy. That's their philosophy. That's how they're going to keep riding it out. We'll see if it pays off for them eventually. I think they feel like it can. Yeah. I think it's a solid bet. I mean, the only guy I think that has been that good for that long is since I've been doing this really during my lifetime that didn't get one, it's probably Phillip Rivers.

Right, I'm too young from arena. But all the other guys, even if it's disappointing, even if Roger should have more than one, at least he got one. So I think that that series of bets makes sense. The one area on the roster where the continuity is not there and guys are improving is what's happening in safety. And talking to Nick Scott today, it just feels, one of my concerns,

I had a discussion with Nate on the top 10 defense show we did earlier this week. You have this group. as a whole defensively, where you have nine returning starters and guys that have been in the system for multiple years, really every single piece. Both the linebackers, the starting corner, one of the outside corners, the nickel, the other outside corners in a second year. But most of the veteran corps here has built on this scheme over the last several seasons. They can do anything.

So what happens that the guys in the back end don't have that level of familiarity in what you're doing? The answer seems to be they don't care. they've essentially thrown those guys into the deep end of the pool and said, I'm mixing my metaphors, you better hurry, you better catch up or you're going to be left behind. Like, we are not dumbing things down because you're new to this. That's encouraging to me. The fact that they're trying to keep this thing full speed ahead, even though they have a couple new pieces on the back end, I think that's the best mindset.

And I think that that potentially gets the most out of this defense. Now it's just a matter of can Nick's gotten back? He'll handle that. Yeah. And does it cost them games while they learn? Yeah. I mean, I think because we saw last year, this team, really the last two years, has struggled to get out quickly. They've been five and four at the halfway point each the last two years.

It started O and two last year. They were two and three. And as they figured things out. Will this safety combo not knowing how to, you know, replace something or make them call or whatever, cause a blowup that loses them a game? And maybe cost them home field advantage because they've had to go on the road. They've had to do it the hard way the last couple of years. in the playoffs and they did it once and they almost did it the second time that's not sustainable it's not a way that they want to go about it that's going to be the thing it's okay for

them to learn there be growing pains but if it starts costing them games that's when you wonder you know they're going to start asking questions are there other answers here how can we figure things out but look i mean they spent a first round pick on dax hill who is a bright guy out of michigan who played a lot of different spots there and he played really well in the preseason last year and then just Jesse Bates and Von Bell never got hurt. He didn't have to play. He didn't have to play. He ended up playing corner because they had some attrition over there at one point, a position that's not even really. So for him to come in and feel solid and have a spot, a first round pick with a ton of talent and athleticism,

you can have worse setups for filling in for your guys. There's no doubt. And I honestly think that Jordan Battle is going to have a chance to get on the field in that spot. Yeah. And that's a good thing. Yeah. The idea that the guy you drafted in the third round is so, intriguing that you want to see what you have in him. I don't think that's an indictment of Dax Hill at all. I think it's another comment on the depth that this team has. No doubt. He was a surprise pick in the third round because I don't think people thought and say they would go that way. It was a little, but I think it shows how much they love me. He was the guy where a couple minutes into their combine interview, they turned the tape off. We've never seen anything like this

before. They loved him from a personality and intelligence standpoint. And, you know, Luena Rumo, we know that that is a value big time. All smart guys all the time. That's what made Jesse and Vaughn such a perfect fit for him. It's such a cerebral position of cerebral, a system where you have to have that back there. And they leaned on them so hard. So it's not necessarily surprising in that respect that they would try to find someone who has that of their core trait when they're thinking about filling a position. The last thing I would say is kind of tying a bow on this.

The slow starts that they've had over the last couple years. The slow start last year wasn't surprising to me. I expected them to potentially have some issues with the changes that defenses were going to throw at them. We saw that. All the cover two and all of the kind of shell-based coverages they saw in the early part of the last year, they didn't have a good answer.

Then, you know, we talked about this a million times. That week four, week five kind of shift, first in the Baltimore game, then they played New Orleans. And they go to that gun-based running game, and it all falls in the place. More gaps in the run, it all ties together. Joe's more comfortable checking the ball down.

They're like, all, we'll be willing to live in this, world and by the end of the year, they're one of the best offenses in the league. There's no more kind of weird curveballs for defenses to really throw at them. You've seen what it's like when you get a lot of single high man. We're going to just burn you down down the field. It doesn't go well. And now, if you're going to make us earn it consistently, we're willing to play that way as well. So now I don't see that that slow start happening again because we've seen them work through most of the major problems the defense is going to present to them. Now, again, it's just about tweaking at the margins. You look at some of what Baltimore did to them last.

year, you know, the simulator pressures. I mean, that was the one thing that they kind of still kind of even struggled with. You mentioned, though, the playoff game where, you know, people forget how good Baltimore played defensively in that game to push them to their limits and needing the fumble in the jungle for Sam Hubbard to help pull them to a win. But, like, you know, it's because of Burroughs evolution. I mean, Burrow evolved. I mean, I love QB tears and we saw Sandow, and a lot of executives talked about him taking

too many sacks. That's the area where Burrow took the biggest step. There's no doubt. That's a previous iteration of him. Now understanding how, when to take your chances, when to hold it, and how quickly he has been. Zach Taylor talked about he's never seen anybody who's so good at recognizing getting the ball to the checkdown so quickly. And it made that a weapon for them. And now what's going to happen?

The evolution for them is finding out, okay, you're going to sit back and they're going to find ways they've been all offseason scheming. How are we going to find explosives out of this now? Yeah. we're going to tinker with that and make this work against you if you're going to sit in too high all day too. And that means, you know, an evolved role for T. Higgins. I expect to see him moving around a lot more this year, maybe more slot play out of him, the same thing they did with Jamar, the last, you know, over the last year, year and a half, to help evolve that too. And so there's a lot of different ways that they can go. With Burrow, I just don't, like you said, I don't think there's something that can happen that they're not comfortable that this dude is going to ace this test no matter what the defense to try to do to them.

right now. He's that dude now. It is exciting times. I cannot wait to watch this team, and I think that they're going to be, again, musty television every single week based on guys they got on both sides of the ball. Paul Deiner, sincerely appreciate the time. My friend, always good to see you. Always good to chat with you. Thanks for coming through.

Joining us now from a soundproof room here in the Detroit Lions facility, which is, I wonder. I'll take it every single time. It's Colton Pousy. Our Lions are at the Athletic. How are you doing, buddy? Pretty good, man. How are you done?

I'm doing good. Day one of Lions, Giants, joint practices. I feel like every time I'm here in day one, it's just about who's playing where? And I can get what the depth chart looks like and some interesting revelations about that today. We can talk about some of those, but we were discussing a little bit before we started recording. I mean, nowhere else to start with this except good vibes, man. I think people feeling good around here, and understandably so. This is a team that two years ago was the worst team in the league.

It was like a total teardown job. everyone understood that and then you get two years later and they are playing the kansas city chiefs to open the season and national television and i don't think anyone really blinked at that it's like oh yeah that makes sense based on where the lions are right now so how is that manifest for you how can you kind of feel what that trajectory has been like here yeah you know even last year my first year on the beat like lions fans are a lord blunt so they're always you know they enter the year with these good vibes and good expectations and whatnot but definitely feels heightened this year just based on the way they finished. You know, starting off the year 1 and 6, finishing 8 and 2, that really set

expectations for coming into a new season with, you know, you had all these draft picks and guys taking a second year leave, third year leave. It seems like things are finally starting to come together at this time. And the fan base has just starred for a winner. And I think it's showing up. You see all the fans out here. They're cheering for every single play, whether it's a five-yard pass or four-year touchdown. And, you know, I think they're starting to see what the bigger picture is here. It's been building for three years now with Dan Camp. when Brad Holmes are doing in place. So, you know, I think it's kind of weird.

It's a weird feeling that the lines are good. They have these expectations, but, you know, the players are saying all the right things. You know, they're saying we haven't done anything. We finished 9 and 8 and missed the playoffs. So as much as people want to hype us up, we still have to accomplish everything right now, starting in training camp to kind of do what we want to do during the season.

So it's some weird vibes. It's like almost too positive at times, but, you know, it's fun. It's fun when the guys are in a good mood. I can understand that. This is a top five offense from last year. number one in the NFL in the think success right down the second half of the season. And you bring back all the component parts of that offense while adding a couple of guys. It's always fun when you get to training game, but you forget stuff.

And I forget that Vita is on the roster and he didn't play last year. And so you have this really good offensive line that right guard was a nightmare for them last year. It's rotating cast to guys. And it's like, oh, yeah, he was hurt all of last season. Yeah. See that. And then you have this offense that was very, very good. And you drop in these pretty intriguing pieces.

And the three that I would point out, all young players and, and semi-rookies. Jameson Williams heading into year two, Sam Laporta at tight end, and Jemir Gibbs as whatever they're going to call him. He's an offensive weapon. And so my question is, and I'm wondering how much of an idea you have of this,

because that's always when you look at an offense that kind of was more than the sum of its parts, I think that's absolutely what the Detroit Lions were last year. T.J. Hawkinson, mid-year. Your best receiver is a diminutive slot guy. You can't really name any of the other receivers on the roster. It's Josh Reynolds and other guys who are available for next to nothing. The tight ends are all no-name late-round picks, and this is the best offense

in the football and a quarterback that nobody wanted. So the question with that is always, all right, you kind of piece this thing together and it was beautifully designed and all that, but how do you maintain that? How do you not take a step back? Because maybe the situation is going to be as good this year. And I think that kind of young collection of players and the talent that they possibly represent, that's where you can take that step forward. So how do you envision the offense kind of shifting around those guys for them to progress in the way that people want them to? Yeah, you know, as free agency in the draft was playing out, I think a lot of people were confused by what the Lions were trying to do. It's like, oh, you have Jamal Williams. He had 17 touchdowns and was really good as a short yardage back.

We have Donder Swift, who's this dynamic talent when healthy. And why don't you just keep those guys and run it back with your top five offense? But for the Lions, it's like, no, that wasn't even good enough for what we wanted to do. We left yards on the field. We didn't feel like we were efficient enough. Like that's something Ben Johnson talks about a lot. And so for me, it's like, yeah, I was saying they might target a tight end because, Because their tight end rotation was kind of like a community approach when they traded Hawkins in last year.

Yeah, they all run together. Zilstra and like whoever else they're trotting out there. Yeah, exactly. No shade to any of those guys. It's hard to kind of peel those guys apart because there are no real standout talents among that group. Right. So as the draft was unfolding, I was like, they might look at the tight end. Lions fans have had a bad history with tight ends getting drafted high.

And I really love that. Iowa tight ends, period. Yeah. So when they drafted report, I was like, yeah, that makes sense. He's probably going to start from day one. when they drafted Gibbs, it was like, look, DeAndy Swift was entering the last year of his rookie deal, has not been able to stay healthy. They couldn't really rely on him in a year that they have these playoff expectations. So they can get a guy that might be a little bit more dynamic.

He's faster. You hope he can stay healthy and he can hold up in the NFL and, you know, can do some things that you want to do in this run game. And as a receiver, that could be an upgrade. You know, so they got these pieces. Then JMO, you know, before the suspension, there was a lot of hype about him and what he can do in year two. We're going to have to wait a little bit now. but he's still such a dynamic talent as a wide receiver. You see the separation that he creates, his pure speed running down the field.

It's there. You just got to kind of harness it. So I think there's the right staff in place with the mind like Ben Johnson kind of get the most out of these upgraded pieces. They're young, but in theory, these guys can help you win now and down the road. So to me, these are, again, upgrades for what they want to do offensively. This is how you kind of prevent regression and take a step forward. I totally agree in the best case scenario. The best case scenario of all these guys kind of click into place in the way that you want.

want them to. It's like, oh, man, they just have so many different elements to the offense that they didn't even have last year. But even as somebody watching from the outside, the expectations of this team now has and where they were at the end of last season, part of me just wanted like a little bit more certain. Like, can we drop in a quantity that's a little bit more certain that maybe is even complimentary to these guys? And the type of player I kept coming back to is like, would this be a DeAndre Hopkins team? Just because they don't have that kind of big body possession receiver. They traded for Benzo Mims. And so clearly they think they believe that they needed that, they just weren't willing to pay a premium for it. And honestly, I think that's

why Brad Holmes is a good NFL GM and where I'm at right now, because it's not all about this year. It's about making sure that you're still building this thing in the right way, at the right pace. And I think that they've done that. You know, you can argue with the positional value considerations and what they did in their first round, but they traded back to do that, a bunch of other things. And he might be at that stage of the draft the best way to improve your offense. I'm talking about Jemar Gibbs. And Sam LaPorta, I was talking to a Gerea. I was talking to a Gere him over the last couple weeks, and we were discussing kind of the way the tight end position fell in this year's draft.

And they thought that he was Dalton Kincaid, but you can get him a little bit later in the draft. You know, and so if you can get that guy and still have that juice as a pass catcher because he just wasn't featured to the same extent in an Iowa offense that is existing in 2002, then maybe you're getting a value there. So I can understand the best case, I think that it's just more of a question mark than it would have been if you had gone out and gotten a proven veteran at one of those spots. Yeah, with those players they added, you've got to see it, right?

That's like the bottom line, the rookies. You've got to see how they develop in the NFL, especially at the tight end position. You know, it's kind of a harder position to kind of learn on the fly. We haven't seen many rookies really impact the game from that spot. And that's kind of my question. But apparently he's looked really good, right? That's my thing. Because I go back, it is.

Like traditionally rookie tight ends need some time. They need some seasoning. They almost need a whole contract. I mean, think about what Hawkinson is, his best year last year at the end of his rookie deal. Evan Ingram took after his rookie deal. They paid David Njoku in Cleveland. I was like, what the hell are they doing? And then he has the best year of his career.

So those guys in year four and five, sometimes it takes that long. Yeah. But that would say. But the Porter looks awesome. Like he, like, even in rookie minicamp, you could tell he's the best dude on the field there. He's coming to training camp and has immediately been tied in one running with the ones. Gough, he's probably his second favorite target behind St. Brown for this point. Like, he is looking his way early and often on every series.

And he's making his catches in traffic, you know, the yards after catches there, the speed. He's elusive. So you see the total package. I think maybe the block needs to come along a little bit, and that's probably why they're trying to keep guys like Brock right around and make sure that he's earning his snaps there. But same time, like, they drafted him for a reason. They drafted him 34th overall to play him in year one,

and that's what we're seeing on the field right now. And yeah, I understand that. And if he can be that element for them, and again, they get something out of Gibbs and they have that top off the defense version of it, it's not a traditional collection of past catchers in the sense of like, this is what an elite offense looks like, but I do think with Ben Johnson and with this

offensive line and kind of a year- or two streamlined version of, we know we do well. Now it's kind of trying to build off of that. I can understand the optimism. I'm curious what you think the long-term outlook for Jared Goff looks like with this team. Because you and I talked in the spring about kind of the theoretical question of whether it was worth adding a quarterback with the top five pick or six pick, because you're in this position where you might not be picking this high again. there are a couple guys available. The draft didn't fall that way. They would have to move up for one of the top three guys. Fine. But now, you know, Jared Gough is somebody that's been really good for what they've asked him to do on this roster. But eventually, you're going to have to wonder, do we commit to Jared Gough moving forward? Do we understand that maybe we need to go in a younger, cheaper direction with a higher ceiling? So what do you think the next 12 months looks like for Jared Gough in the Alliance?

Yeah, it's interesting because I do think a lot of it has to play out this season to determine how long he's around. It seems like there have been some internal discussions. about a contract extension. I don't know if Jared Scamp has been involved in that yet. It's more probably on the line side talking amongst themselves. But I think this is a big year. And obviously, you know, last year kind of alleviated some concerns that you might have had off the 2021 season, had a Pro Bowl year, 29 touchdown, 7 interceptions. So I think now the question is, okay, let's try to make the playoffs, let's try to make a run,

see how far we can get off this year. Honestly, for a franchise that hasn't won a playoff game since, what, 1991, I think they'll take what they can get this year. That's right. And kind of go from there. I know a lot of other teams are kind of stuck in this maybe no man's land with the, you know, middle of the pack quarterback and trying to figure out whether you pay him some money or move on. I don't think the lions are there yet. I think they want to see what golf can do.

They trust him. They're comfortable with him. At this point, it's like he's earned that right. He's confident these players believe in him. So I guess to see what he can do and kind of take it from there. I feel like they're taking it year by year at this point. But they do a pennon hooker waiting in the wings who we'll see about he's kind of his regimen right now. I was kind of throwing after practice, getting some of these sessions, getting the mental

reps during practice. But he's probably like a year away. I think Dan Campbell called this maybe like a redshirt type season for him. Coming off an injury, very strange college offense. Even though he's a little bit of an older prospect, you can understand that there's an acclimation period. Yeah. Golf's under contract for next year.

And it's fascinating. It's like a fascinating team building example and team building study. Because when they traded for Jared and they were in this kind of total terrodown mode, in my mind, it's hard to square it. where it's like, all right, you're paying your quarterback $30 million a year, but you're tearing down the rest of the roster. And it didn't make a ton of sense to me. But $30 million for a quarterback right now, that is a mid-tier quarterback contract. So you can argue that $30 million for what they got out of Jared Gough last year, even over the next two years,

it's kind of somewhere in the middle of the top of the market guys and a rookie quarterback contract. So I can understand just trying to navigate your way through that life and see what sort of team you can build out of it. That seems to be what they're doing. And so far, the returns have been much better than I had anticipated when they first decided to kind of take him on. Yeah. You know, Brad Holmes has always been copied in golf. Like, maybe we didn't listen to him enough. We didn't. I certainly didn't. I'd certainly didn't. I'll admit that 100 times out of 100. Yeah. And, you know, he's very pleased with the way this trade has worked out. He was able to get, you know, Jemir Gibbs, Sam LaPorte, and Jameson Williams kind of through this staffer trade and

golf. There's some pieces that can help you win. So I think, you know, long term we'll see. It's like how much do you want to pay golf over however many years? If it's like a, maybe like a genotype contract where it's a short term and you can kind of build from there. Maintaining flexibility, I think, is the most important thing. And, you know, it's the Giants kind of went through a similar thing with Daniel Jones. And I think that the deal he got, I'm sure Goff's camp is looking at that as a baseline for what his next contract might look like. And it should be. So how that all gets sorted out, I think is really interesting.

And again, I'm more open to the idea of a Jared Goff type quarterback at the right. Rice being part of the right trajectory for you as a franchise, then I would have been a couple years ago where you kind of painted in more black and white terms than that. So we're talking about all about the offense, was your top five you know last year. The defense and where the defense can go, I think, is going to have

a lot to do with whether this team reaches, whether this is the best team in the NFC North and kind of a playoff contender in the NFC. I'm really interested today in just kind of all of the ways that, how the back end is going to shake out essentially. You know, they signed all these guys in free agency.

and they drafted Brian Branch in the second round. So it kind of feels to me like they're just saying, we're going to get as many dudes as we can, and then we're going to figure out what our best five looks like or what those personnel packages look like as we get into the season. Would you say that's kind of a fair characterization? Absolutely. Aaron Glenn wanted his guys here,

and he kind of reshaped this room intentionally, secondary specifically. Bringing Cam Sutton, who Glenn has known, since he was coming out of Tennessee, his last year there. You get Emmanuel Mosley, who's banged up right now, but he's going to be a starting corner when he's healthy, coming off a very good year with the 49ers,

and C.J. Garner Johnson. And I got like Brian Branch, too, those are four dudes that can come in and help you immediately and play for you. So it was very much intentional what they did with the secondary. Aaron Glenn, I had a one-on-one with him a few months ago, and he told me, look, we had to get some of my guys in here, and that's exactly what they did,

and they're trying to make some match dudes and find the best four or five that you can field on the field at once together, and that's what they're doing. It's tempting to want answers to that. They're like, well, how is it going to shake out? Who's going to get those roles? But the first place my mind goes is, well, now if Tracy Walker is a backup safety, and if Jerry Jacobs is your third or fourth corner, and you start pushing those guys further and further down the depth chart, that's when you can start to feel much better about the position overall.

Because Manuel mostly struggled to get hurt or struggle to say healthy. Well, if it gets banged up, Jerry Jacobs is played. And you know, you're not getting so far down deep into the depth chart where you're worried about that group the way you might have been over the last couple of years just because they have the dudes. but it feels to me like the best five when it all is said and done will likely end up being Sutton and Mosley on the outside, Branch in the slot, and C.J. Gardner Johnson and Kirby Joseph had safety. Would you say that's probably where it would lean? I think it's getting there now. You know, Branch has been getting a lot of reps with the ones, the last three practices. Saw it today. That's why that's why I'm like, okay, there it is. He's been awesome. And I'm still surprised he made it to 45th overall. That's insane to me. I know he had some question about speed and size or whatever, but position. Put on the tape. Yeah. Can you, well, how? How much can you pay a guy that you know is mostly a nickel player and a safety? But the guy can just play. He clearly just play.

I thought he's one of the best defensive players in the draft. And they got him in 45th overall. And when he first came in, it's like, okay, yeah, he's probably, you know, running behind Cedar Garner Johnson at nickel for a year and maybe Garner Johnson goes elsewhere. He kind of fills in. Now it's like, no, Aaron Glenn told us early on, we're going to find a way to get him on the field. And that's exactly what they're doing.

And they're kind of, Garner Johnson back to safety, play him with Kirby, put branch at nickel. and sometimes they can put CJ at nickel and put Tracy back there. They have a ton of flexibility. And Tracy's played the nickel too. So, I mean, it's kind of like an offensive line the way that you would build it where having positional versatility is so important because if you can move one guy from guard to tackle and you don't lose a ton, it's huge.

And that's how they feel, I'm sure. It's like, all right, we have three guys that can play at a slot if we need them to. And in different situations. And so it becomes difficult communication-wise, and you have to be really well-coached to do that, but they certainly have the flexibility. I'm wondering, what have they told you, about the decision to spend on Alex Anzolone in the way they did in free agency and then also

draft Jack Campbell in the first round. Is that a situation where they thought that they could improve on Malcolm Rodriguez? Because the way that they kind of distributed resources in that area, I thought it was a little bit surprising over the course of the spring. Yeah, on the surface, you know, after they drafted Campbell, I'm like, well, he's a Mike. Anzolini's a Mike. So what are you going to do? What does this mean from Malcolm Rodriguez, who had a pretty good rookie year? I know he's kind of force in action because they didn't really trust the depth they had.

And that's kind of one of those moments. It's like, well, was he good as a fourth-round rookie or is he someone that you feel like you can build on? And so I think we kind of got an answer to that. Yeah. So to me, it's like Jack Campbell's going to start. Alexander's only going to start. Those are your two backers in the middle. Malcolm has been running with the two's all training camp.

So he's kind of selling into this reserve role and play a lot of special teams. And, you know, as a six-round pick, that's tremendous value. Six-round pick. I'll say again, I'm in or rating where it was drafted because of the fact that he was even on the field last year. And that makes sense. And you don't want to get too attached to that where it's like, oh, he was pretty good last year, but someone of the worst defenses in the league for a good chunk of last season. Like, you probably do need upgrades.

So that doesn't make sense. The one area where was I look at it, and they were in like a base front today in red zone, it's like, all right, you got Hutchinson on one side. And then in the interior you got, you know, some version of like Kaminsky, McNeil. And like, so I get the interior guys, like maybe you need one more, but they've got some bodies there. That other kind of past rushing spot opposite Aiden Hutchinson. Obviously James Houston was really good last year, but it was more of a situation.

situational role. That to me is like the one spot I would keep coming back to where it's like, could they use a little bit more juice there, right? Like could that be Tyree Wilson instead of what they ultimately did with Jamir Gibbs? But that's kind of my only gripe about like the way they built the defense. Yeah, you know, they had a chance to get Tyree and they pass on him. Yeah.

So I think they're very comfortable with Charles Harris. And, you know, he's a guy that was banged up last year. M-I-Z, man. Yeah, C-O-U. They loved him in 2021 when he was healthy. Last year he was a little banged up. But he's been running with the ones all training camp. I think they're comfortable with him there and they love the depth that they have with Romeo Aquara coming off.

James Houston. And maybe that's the argument is that like we can just throw bodies at the problem and we have enough different body types. You know, you know, Pascoe's a little bit bigger. You know, so I totally understand that. It's just like the one spot where I was like, oh, okay. Charles Harris is going to start for them there and I guess that makes sense. I do think they could use some more juice in the interior. Like there's a reason why a lot of us were talking about maybe getting Jalen Carter in the draft.

I thought I could have been perfect up in the middle. I know he's not really the type of fit, I guess, character-wise, whatever they're looking for there. But I do think they could have used a guy like that to plug in next to a Lee McNeil. If you get those two in the middle, you're set for however many years. But they didn't. I think they feel comfortable with some of the inside-out potential there with John Kaminsky. You can play D.T. or on the edge. Same with Josh Paskell, who's they've been using.

These are 280-pound guys. Yeah. So I think they feel like they have enough. But to me, it's like maybe one other guy if there's a cut, you know, a cut, you know, before the season you can add another player maybe they look at that but they seem pretty set and they're ready to roll i guess what is a reasonable expectation you think for the defense this year um try to crack the top 20 um points and yards i mean they've been near the bottom of the league last two years so i think with the secondary that they have now like that to me is the key to erin glen's defense

just the versatility the guys that he has the mindset you have to be wired a certain way to play corner for erin glen he said that time time again they did not have those guys last year um So I think based on some of the moves they've made, adding a guy like Jack Campbell, Broject Martin, we haven't talked about, third round pick, 6-5 nose tackle that's, you know, 330 pounds. He's just going to be a rotational guy from the beginning and probably in a starting job by end of the season. So they've got some beef up there now.

They think they feel more comfortable in the secondary. And I think if you get the pieces all together, Aaron Glenn's a good enough coach to kind to make it work. He just hasn't had the pieces over the year. So I think he has it now. It's time, man. I mean, now we're in, what, year three, and they've built this team. They've kind of used all the resources that they had in those trades and the way and the pace at which Brad Holmes has done this.

Now it's time to see how it works out. And very reasonably, they are the favorites in the NFC North. And after the way the last season ended, I don't blame anyone for thinking this team can finally take that next step, be a playoff team and God forbid win a playoff game. Win a playoff game. Colin Pousy, always good to see you, my friend. Always good to spend the time. We'll talk to you soon. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, ma'am.

All right, guys, that's all we've got. Thank you so much to James. Thank you so much to Paul. Thank you to Colton. Enjoyed chatting with all of them. We got two more of these. We got two more of these as we round out August. I am going to the East Coast this week.

Going to be in Philly, Buffalo, some other places. Pittsburgh. Philly, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, the Jets. So a lot of other stuff, a lot of stops here over the next week or so. So we'll have those coming your way. next Saturday, and then we will round this out on the last Saturday of August with the NFC north.

That is coming to your way in two weeks. So please be on the lookout for those. Also, if you have not started checking out our division previews on the Athletic Football Show, highly encourage you guys to give those a listen. We have the AFC South out right now. Monday, we will have the NFC West, followed by the NFC South on Tuesday. If you are interested in watching individual team previews on video, those are available on the Athletic Football Show's YouTube page.

We're doing all 32 teams so you can check those out at your leisure. Really appreciate you guys listening. We will be back later this week with previews, football GM, prospects to pros. We're in it now. Excited to talk to you guys soon. See you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.