The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - TAFS Goes Camping, Vol. 5: Vikings, Packers and Bears

Episode Date: August 26, 2023

Robert Mays travels to Vikings camp to get the Minnesota perspective from The Athletic's Alec Lewis, then catches up with Packers reporter Matt Schneidman at Packers camp, and rounds out the journey at home talking Bears with our own Kevin Fishbain.0:00-19:54 - Vikings19:54-44:32 - Packers44:32-End - Bears Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show, presented by YouTube and YouTube TV, the new home of NFL Sunday ticket. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. It is the last installment of our going camping series, traveling around to various NFL training camps over the month of August. Had a great time doing these. I went to see, I think, 20 different teams in about a month, which was a lot, but it was very fun. I can't even tell you how enjoyable it is to be having these football conversations and getting to see the country, getting to spend time with all these different people.

It was a blast. I hope you guys enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed the insights from these people who cover the teams and just understand them in a way that we can't not being there every single day. And these are our last three. It's a run through the NFC North. My old stopping grounds went to Minneapolis, went to Green Bay, ended things in Chicago. Very excited for you guys to hear from Alec Lewis, who covers the Vikings for us. Matt Schneidman, who is our Packers writer here at The Athletic, and Kevin Fishman, who is one of our Bears writers here at The Athletic. I don't think Kevin has been on the show as part of the series before we had Adam Johns on last year. So very excited for you guys to hear from all three of them. Let's get to it.

Joining us now, I think, for the first time. Ever. You only started on the beat last year. Don't give me that much shit about it. No, no. I'm just happy to be here. I mean, I don't know. Mizzu guys. It's just, it's about time. It's a long time. Joining us right now, it is our Vikings writer at the athletic. It's Alec Lewis. How you doing, man? I'm great, Robert. It's been a blast of a camp. You came in yesterday on Mustache Monday. Kurt Cousins has embraced his goofy side for a few weeks now, which has been interesting. He's a star now, movie star, so I guess I get it. A team that is in such an interesting space. They went 13 games last year. I think all of us know

that it wasn't a real 13 win season. Maybe. Maybe that's a real 13 win season. And maybe that's harsh. The underlying metrics would tell us that the 13 wins maybe were not indicative of where this team was in the process. There we go. Let's do it that way. Now you have this new version of it or the second act of Quasido Femmetson and Kevin O'Connor after they came in last year, where they were a playoff team. And this idea of competitive rebuild that they've been trying to sell from the beginning is still going on. They're still shedding some veteran salaries.

They're getting younger in some areas. while I think really trying to be competitive this year. So as they kind of step into the second season of this, how would you assess what this competitive rebuild, quote unquote, looks like? Do you feel like they're balancing both worlds in the way that they're trying to? Yeah, and they are really trying to. I mean, it's something I asked Quasi Adofo Minta about the first press conference we had at the beginning of training camp.

And he kind of laughed at himself because I think he knows that the characterization of competitive rebuild has become like a thing here in a funny way. Like fans talk about all the time. But I kind of viewed last year as more of like competitive rebuild. This year is a little more like competitive rebuild. And so I think they've done a lot to kind of move off of contracts of guys like Eric Kendricks and Adam Thielen. And I think they've tried to replace those guys with some younger guys of like the Marcus Davenport, Byron Murphy, some high upside kind of signing.

So I think they've tried to navigate it well while looking forward and clearing the books a little bit. And it's, I think they're trying to kind of thread the needle. And in some ways, I think they're, they've done it in a solid way. And I think it's going to ultimately come down to quarterback as everything seems to. Look at the moves they made this off season and kind of pick up their breadcrumbs the teams give us. They go and hire Brian Flores to be their defensive coordinator. Complete style was they change on that side of the ball. I think on purpose.

I think both the fans, anyone who likes this team and even people within this building looked at how they bled out certain games on defense last year and just said, we're not doing this again. And the Flores hiring almost seems like an overcorrection from what we saw last year. Now, on offense, most of the piece is the same. You go draft Jordan Addison in the first round. So you swap him out for Adam Thiel and you get a bit younger, younger, more explosive at that other receiver spot. And then you sign Josh Oliver to this pretty sizable deal to be your number two tight end. So on offense, it just feels like we want one more receiving option and then to be more physical running the ball.

And then on defense, we just want to be able to create a few more problems. And the end game of all of this appears to me to be to win the division, right? To be a playoff team again, to be competitive week in and week out. So let's play that out. Let's say that their vision for this team where they're really good on offense and they're annoying on defense gets you to 10 wins. Now what? Like what comes next? The end game here, as part of this competitive rebuild to me, is such a fascinating question to ask,

because even if we go through the rigamarole again of them being a double-digit win team that makes the playoffs probably doesn't win a Super Bowl, what are you left with? And for some teams, it doesn't matter, but for this team, I think it's a huge blinking lights question that is the only thing that ends up mattering. Yeah, I think, and that is, again, why I mentioned the quarterback, because ultimately, without the direction of that position, I think they're just, the questions exist. I mean, obviously, you could talk about Justin Jefferson and his potential extension, T.J. Hawkinson, I mean, in years to come, Christian Darrasaw. But I think ultimately, what they do at quarterback, I mean, for whatever happens this year, that conversation is going to hover over what happens this year and be the conversation next off season.

And so it is an interesting, I think ownership has said pretty clearly, like, we want to be competitive every single year. And I think fans here love those games. I mean, the Vikings are such a part of the culture in this place. Last year was fun. I have to imagine it was a good time for people. As you were saying that, I could just imagine Nate in his like high-pitched voice at some point this year being like, they're kind of fun. Like they're kind of like I can just see you guys doing that watching this defense and the chaos of it. So but it's a worthwhile question.

And that's why like, you know, you're always trying to think in this in this job. Like, what is the present looking like? and I always analyze how can they win this year, but I also have that blinking light in the back of my mind of like going forward in the macro, what is the plan? Where is this thing going long term? For years, they would extend Kirk and kind of borrow from his contract as a way to keep competitive and keep this thing going.

They did not do that again. This is the last year of his deal. Do you think it is a foregone conclusion or let's put a percentage on it? What do you think the percentage chance is that he is not the Vikings quarterback next season? I would say probably 70% that he's not the Vikings quarterback. That's a big number. Yeah, it's a big number. And I know there were conversations.

They've had conversations and you know this better than anybody. Kirk Cousins has not been afraid in the past to bet on himself if the deal does not give him peace. And I think that's where the situation has stood this offseason. You never, like Quasi Adofa Minta says all the time, like conversations are ongoing and you never know, depending on what does or doesn't happen into. the season and during the season, like maybe the two sides do get together. We'll see what happens. But I would say right now it looks like Kirk's going to play it out and do what he's done multiple times in the past and bet on himself.

So then where does that leave you? I think that becomes the big question. And we don't have to keep harping on that. That's something that we can address many, many times over the course of the year. Let's talk more about that plan to get them to 10 wins and potentially be a playoff team. Offensively last year, after the T.J. Hawkinson trade, They were a different team throwing the football. Teams played them a different way.

Teams were really willing to lean into a lot of man coverage because they didn't trust the other past catchers to get open. You could double Justin Jefferson. That was the blueprint for the first half of the season. They go trade for T.J. Hawkinson. Now they have kind of a matchup destroyer in a way that they didn't before. They become harder to play against. But the one underlying area of the offense that he didn't solve

and still hasn't been solved is this team was really bad running the football. They led the league in negative runs. It was a weakness, even with some of the advantageous looks that were created because Justin Jefferson exists. Based on the conversations I've had over the last 24 hours, it feels like getting better and more efficient in that area was definitely the priority for this staff and the offseason. Is that kind of the same thing that you found in talking to people here? A hundred percent. I mean, going back to the owner's meetings, I mean, Kevin O'Connell said the word rushing efficiency, probably like a billion times. And I think they've tried to do it like

in three different facets. From a personnel perspective, you mentioned Josh Oliver, the gigantic tight-in. West Phillips, like early in training camp, what does this guy bring? And he's like, well, have you seen the guy? I mean, he looks like a defensive end. So I think him blocking the edge is a piece of it. I think more utilization of C.J. Ham. I think that's also a piece to what they're trying to do. That's the personnel side. I think schematically, they're going to do some different stuff from a gap scheme perspective and also just using C.J. Ham. And then I think from a mindset shift, Garrett Bradbury, the center told me that like one of the first meetings they had, Kevin was like from a mindset, we need to alter how we're thinking about running the football and be physical and

bring it to defenses. And I think you hit the nail on the head. It's not like they weren't running in advantageous looks. I mean, they had too high coverage, I think more than most last year, given Justin Jefferson. Believe it was the highest rate in the entire league. Exactly. And so with that, I think they just believe if we can be more efficient running the football, then it'll open up more things on the perimeter on the outside. And you mentioned T.J. Hawkinson, but what he did over the course of his time here, I think he was like a top 10 most targeted pass catcher in the entire NFL once he arrived here.

But yeah, the rushing efficiency, that's been the theme going back months now. If you can up to get that to a place where you're not having negative runs, you're staying on schedule offensively, it really does feel like this offense is a chance to be better than it was last year, like significantly better. Like a top five-ish unit if things go well and a top-tenth-ish unit, even if things go pretty well.

I don't think that's out of line. No, I think you're kind of leaning on two different fast, maybe three. Alexander Madison being your starting running back. He's going to ask about that. Yeah, I mean, he is, and I think he fits exactly what they're looking for in terms of, he might not have the explosive characteristics of Dalvin, but he is a strong physical downhill, get you four yards, put you in second and six, third and two, and keep the playbook open.

I think that's part of it. I think Jordan Addison's ability to stay on the field and separate in a way that Adam Thielen was not last year. I think if the offense does take a step forward, that's going to be a big reason. And then I just think in general, you're banking on Kirk Cousins in year two of this scheme and this system. And so, yeah, but the if and then the interior of the offensive line, the Garrett, Bradbury, Ed Ingram, Ezra Cleveland, it's the same group. Can they take a step forward? It's a lot of ifs, but I think to your point, like the floor and ceiling, you can look at them pretty optimistically if some of those ifs go well. I expect them to be really competitive on that side of the ball.

And it's interesting watching the commitment they've made to a certain style of offense personnel-wise where obviously Kevin O'Connell and West Phillips come from this 11 personnel world with Sean McVeigh. They get here. C.J. Hamm is there. After they trade for Hawkinson, 12 personnel makes a little bit more sense in terms of the pieces that you have. So they were navigating this new world personnel-wise and a new run game in that world. And I think having a whole off-season to take a step back, analyze what we did well, what we didn't do well, and think about the next stage of this. It's very telling that they keep C.J. Ham on the roster and they go get a guy like Josh

Oliver. It's not about going back to what we used to do. It's about embracing kind of this new world and ways we can make it hard on defenses running the ball. Yeah. And I think that you hit the, they extended C.J. Ham. So it was not only like they just brought like they committed to him. And CJ, I mean, before last year, and I think this is like a running joke among Vikings people in general. It's like, CJ Ham's going to get more staff, more usage every year we talk about this.

But if you've been out here at training camp, just watching them practice, they use him and insert him in a lot of different facets. And so I think as you mentioned that and the personnel in general, that's why I think I'm excited to see this offense because it is so Sean McVeigh influence. And that's been the narrative. But this, I think, is going to look very different. and I want to see what that, what that looks like on Sunday. Offense, again, I think they're going to be competitive for the entire season. Defensively, that is, it can't necessarily chalk it up the exact same way. But again, we talked about this a little bit yesterday, you and I.

This reminds me of the Giants going out in hiring Wink Martindale last year, where you think, all right, we're going to be inexperienced, to put it kindly, in areas of our defense. We might as well force the issue and make it hard to play against us. And again, it feels a little bit like an over-correction for what happened. last year, but that seems to be the mindset. And even if we have questions about how young the corners are and the defensive personnel has some holes, by playing this way, maybe we can dictate to teams in what we couldn't

last season. And if we can get one, two, three splash plays over the course of a game, make teams make completions, we can outscore people on the way to 10 wins. That's what it feels like to me. Completely agree. The way I've compared it is like, it's like you're in the boxing ring and you're the boxer who just like last year, it was just taking punches relentlessly, but man, they've got a tough chin and they can kind of hold their, this year it's like, holy cow, they're swinging

aggressively, but they just got popped with an upper cut a couple of times. So that's kind of how I viewed it. But you mentioned the youth. I mean, at cornerback, and it's an important position to discuss when you're talking about a Brian Flores defense, besides Byron Murphy, there is very little experience at that position. So I mean, I mentioned the ifs on offense, but that is just a gigantic if with very little depth at that position. So I think that's where you get a little hesitant. And then, The linebacking core, other than Jordan Hicks, I mean, it's another young and very inexperienced group. And I could probably say that for most of the positions. Safety is probably where they're most,

I would say that's their deepest position on defense, having a veteran in Harrison Smith, having Cambinam. Josh Mattelis is a guy who will have a very versatile role in this defense. And I think surprise some people. But yeah, I expect maximum chaos. I expect a little bit of probably just variance on that side, but it's going to be mayhem probably. What is the kind of the company line been about the fact that Andrew Booth and Lewis seen both haven't been able to crack the starting lineup? Because you can have good process coming out of your ears when you're talking about trades down and thinking about assets. Eventually the picks have to become players.

And the fact that their first draft trading down from that spot where James and Williams went netted two guys in the top, 40 picks that haven't been able to be starters. That has to be a little bit disheartening for this group. No question. And I think they have mostly been optimistic because that aligns with their culture that they wanted to instill here. But I do think there is an awareness, a visceral awareness among the people making the decisions that, like, Lewis Seen is optimal in a situation where he is not having to think through rules like he had to last year in Ed Donnell's defense and where he can just go fly to the football and make hits. Andrew Booth, I think similarly, it's like if he can be physical at the line of scrimmage

and tackle in the backfield, those are his skill sets. Let's use him in those roles. But both those guys are low on the depth chart. And so I think while being optimistic about them is nice from a PR perspective, yeah, I mean, the deeper this goes with those guys not making impact, it hurts. And it's going to raise questions. And I mean, it is the reason probably some guys are still here. from a veteran standpoint.

And, yeah, but it's, I mean, fans talk about it a lot. We think about it a lot. Lewis, you try to give them grace because Lewis seen did suffer just a terrible compound fracture. Andrew Booth missed most of the year with the torn meniscus. So it's been, it's been a rocky start for that group and given, to your point, the way they handled that draft, it's something I think we'll be talking about analyzing going through for a long time here. It feels like it's going to be a hold on your hats kind of situation. defense both good and bad and I think that's exactly what they want they're willing to live in a little bit more of a high variance world based on the construction of the team I think that the way they want to play offensively and the way they think their offense can play like the heights that it can reach this defense feels more complimentary to the way that they want to exist than last year's did yeah I completely agree and I think the one thing I will say is every player from denial Hunter to the the back of Josh Mattelis is I mean they are extremely excited to be a

in this style. And so I think whatever it looks like, I think that it's been something that stood out from the very beginning of Brian Flores' time here. I want to ask you about Madison and just workload. If we're talking, it's August 22nd. We're in fantasy football land now. Of course.

Do you feel like it's his job, ironclad? He's going to get a vast majority of the work or is somebody like Ty Chandler and the pop that he can potentially give you compared to what Madison's skill set looks like? Is there a world where he starts to eat into some of that over the course of the year? Yeah, I think maybe he could eat into it. But I think from the outset, Kevin O'Connell and this Viking staff is very committed to Alexander Madison being the guy.

And I think going back to going back months conversations I've had with staff, like I think they would have liked Alexander Madison to get more touches last year. I also know in training camp, he's caught a lot of passes out of the backfield. And so I think early on especially, it's his job. It's his touches. They brought in some running backs for workouts and that type of thing, but I don't think that has anything to do with what they think about Alexander Madison. I expect a pretty hefty workload early on for sure. On defense, you mentioned Mattelos as somebody that maybe surprises people.

Who are the other kind of younger underlying pieces that they're going to rely on and potentially could be a little bit better than people might expect? Yeah, I think you have to start with the Caleb Evans at cornerback. He suffered three concussions last year, but the team drafted him in the four. fourth round of the 2022 draft. They believe in him, six foot two longer guy, but has the eyes, I think, to play cornerback in zone if need be for Flores' defense. So I think you start there. He's been the guy across from Byron Murphy in this training camp as the number two corner. And then at linebacker, I mean, I think the buzz around here has been this dude, Ivan Pace,

Jr., who was an undrafted guy from Cincinnati, who Jim Nagy at the senior bowl was like, this guy just lit everybody up and he was awarded the defensive player of the senior bowl, but then he went on drafted. And I think a lot of people questioned the why, but he has been a fan favorite and he's kind of a wrecking ball at like 5-11. So those are the two I think I would single out. It's going to be an interesting year. They're again trying to straddle these two worlds and we'll see how definitely they can pull

it off. I think they're going to be a really competitive team, even if they don't win 13 games. And I think for the Vikings specifically, that's okay. As long as they can feel like they're making progress. and they're hard to play against every single week. That's going to be enough. And I think that there's a chance they get there. Alclos, thank you very much at the time, my friend.

Very good to see you. Very good to chat with you. You too, Robert. Great to see you. Thanks for coming. And I heard you had a good dinner last night. I really did. I've eaten well, man.

I need to get home so I can put a salad in my body. I don't feel fine. I'll tell you that right now. I'll talk to you later. Thanks, Robert. Joining us now, it is our Packers writer here at the Athletic. It's Matt, how you doing, ma'amin? I'm good, little behind the scenes.

Hopefully third time's the charm. We have tried two different locations inside Lambo Field. One, the almost barren media auditorium, then some folks walked in, and then the visitor's locker room, and then a tour walked in. But I'm doing good. This is the perils of Training Camp podcast recording that we're running into right here, and that's how it works. The hottest day of Training Camp today, 104 with the heat index.

I sweat through all my clothes, still not feeling great. But that's the risk you run in late August going to all of these. But a fascinating time here. in Packers World. We are year one of the Jordan Love regime. We have the youngest skill position group I can remember on an NFL football team. They have all the Aaron Rogers dead money that they're dealing with. I think they were dead last in the NFL and cash spending this offseason, if not second to last. It's a time of decided transition. And I'm curious as you kind of take stock of where this team is and what their expectations are for this season, what do you think

they want to accomplish? What do you think this season is about for the Green Bay Packers? Yeah, I know there was some talk earlier this offseason specifically with David Bactiari using the word rebuild. And I agree with him when he says he's not necessarily saying the Packers are expecting to lose because that's what comes along with the term rebuild in terms of what people think of. The Packers have plenty of talent to win this division. Yeah, they didn't tear it down by any stretch. No, absolutely not. But Bactiari's point, which he kind of explained, I believe, with Rich Eisen and, I forget how much in detail he went into it with us when he spoke about it in the locker room,

but they're rebuilding their offense. They don't have Mercedes-Lewis, Robert Tunyon, Alan Lazzard, Randall Cobb, Aaron Rogers. They are a completely different offense, more so than defense, but there's a couple changes on defense. They're going to let the young guys play. Brian Gutakunz, not brought in any veteran tight ends, no veteran wide receivers. They move on to Jordan Love. They want to win, and they expect to win. but it's not like if they stumble out of the gate,

they're going to say, okay, let's bring in reinforcements. Let's, you know, bring in some veterans, sign Jarvis Landry. Like, they're going to sink or swim. This is trial by fire. This is not a we need to win now like the past couple years have been. This is a let's let the young guys grow together, this young core. And if we win while we're doing that, great. So I think the Packers are playing with House money.

Now, obviously, there's still going to be a lot of pressure on Jordan Love. they're the Green Bay Packers, he's following Aaron Rogers, but I think expectations are low for this team, not within the building, and they're just riding with it and saying if we win while we're experimenting with all this, then perfect. I think that's fair. And if you look at just the way that they've built this,

they took all that Rogers money on the chin in year one, and they didn't want to spread it out because they wanted to clear the book starting next year. You look at the creative solution they had with Jordan Love's deal. He has a $7 million cap hit next year. if he's good, they'll have some financial flexibility to add some pieces to this team and potentially hit the ground running as a contender again. So this feels like almost like an interstitial season where you understand we're going to take

a little bit. I don't know what that word means. It's in the middle. Interstitial. It's in the middle. It's like a space term. Interstitial is something. You put it between two scenes.

Okay. And that's kind of what this feels like. Okay. And now you're kind of biding time to figure out what do we have. Let's let the young guys come along. and then next year, if we feel like we're in a position where it's worth it, we can kind of rev it back up again. That's what it feels like, at least.

Right, because Jordan Love is pretty much on a two-year trial run here. Yes. You know, they extended him instead of exercising his fifth-year option and guaranteeing him a little over $20 million, I think it would have been for next season. Instead, they, I believe, gave him just more money up front, and they aren't on the hook for as much down the line if he stinks this season, which I don't think you will. I think he'll be above average based on what we've seen so far.

Granted, you know, we have no idea until the real games start. But I think the expectation, like you said, is this year is to kind of figure things out. And if they don't make the playoffs or don't, you know, win, then it'll be disappointing. But it's not like they'll fall as short of expectations as they have the last couple seasons. You know, not making it to the Super Bowl, not even making the playoffs last year. So I think there is a belief inside this locker room, though, that this team's going to surprise a lot of people. Your assessment of Jordan Love, you said you think he's going to be above average, is that how much of that is what you've seen? How much of that is what you've heard from people in the building?

Where do you get that optimism from personally? Yeah, I mean, he throws a really nice ball for the most part. He's got the demeanor to do it. Like he seems unflappable, extremely calm. Is it as fun for us interviewing him as it was Aaron Rogers? No, but he seems to really have the temperament to handle all the pressure and expectations that are on him now. He's gotten a lot better skill-wise. The guys in the locker room really respect him.

He can move. Now, like I said, it's one thing to be throwing darts against the Bengals and Patriots backups, some starters in there. but what else do we have to go off of? And he's had an up and down camp to some regard, but I would definitely say there's been more good than bad. What's fascinating, and I was talking to Jordan Lowe about this today, this is his first year as a starter, but compared to the guys he's playing with on offense,

he's the veteran. Of course, yeah. He's the one who knows the offense better. And Sean Cleford is older than Jordan Love. The backup quarterback, who's a rookie, is older than the starter who's in his fourth year. So even though we've never seen him for extended periods of time running the offense, he's the one that's having to explain some of the finer details and the

nuances to these new guys because he's been in the offense longer than Christian Watson has, longer than Romeo Dobbs has, certainly longer than any of the rookies have. So typically when you have this sort of team, whether it's an entire offensive roster or its individual position groups, at least there's some sort of veteran beacon in most of these rooms. The offensive line room here? Correct. David Bactiarius here, that group, I think, is more settled and much more of a veteran group. Top three in the league.

Same with the running back group too. Yes, but you look at the receivers and the tight ends. And the idea that this first year quarterback is going to be the one who has to bring these guys along is just a dynamic that I can't remember ever existing in another NFL team before. Right. And I think, I don't know if this is a benefit or a hindrance, but like last year, there was such a gap between what the wide receivers could do mentally and what Aaron Rogers was demanding what he was used to.

You saw Aaron get up there and call guys. guys out for not knowing what routes they were running. And rightfully so. But I'm not going to sit here and say that it put more pressure on the guys because they knew they would get chewed out if they didn't do something right. But there's something to be said, I think, for the quarterback, the receivers, the tight ends, all being young and inexperienced and doing this together. It probably doesn't matter in terms of, because these guys are professionals. It's not like Romeo Dobbs is going out there and being like, oh, I was scared to do this. And now I'm not because Jordan's not. can yell at me. But like, it's fun. It's interesting to cover. It's intriguing because it's

completely different than what we've seen here in past years with a veteran corps to an extremely young core on offense. And I still think they can be good. This division stinks. So I think they can contend for the division. I mean, they have a vastly improved special teams. I know they have eight first round picks on defense. I still need to see it. Yeah. But getting Rishon Gary back is massive for this team. I don't think I understood before I was here today talking to a couple different people about his overall standing within the locker room and within who they are as a team and a defense before talking to a couple people. I don't think from the outside, I don't think people appreciate that enough. I think he's their best player overall. And beyond that, just like tone setting.

Oh, absolutely. What he kind of represents, I think, is more substantial than someone who on the outside looking in would probably guess. Right. I think, you know, I'd say he's their best player. you could say Bokhtiari and Jair Alexander are also in contention for that. But this is one of my most telling stats from last season. So from weeks 1 to 9, the Packers ranked second in pressure percentage in the NFL. So for those who aren't familiar with that, it's percentage of past rush snaps resulting in a pressure. Gary Terrace's ACL week 9 in Detroit. From week 10 to 18, they rank 28th.

So a drop off of 26 spots when they lose one guy. And in the first eight weeks of the season, so when Gary was healthy for full games, He ranks second in the NFL and pressure percentage among guys with at least 100 pass rush snaps. So among guys who regularly rush the passer behind Nick Bosa, who won defensive player of the year. Rishon Gary doesn't get the, you know, name recognition. You know, he's not the brand that Nick Bosa, Micah Parsons, Aaron Donald, you know, Miles Garrett, T.J. Watt are. But he was in the defensive player of the year consideration before he got hurt. And I asked Jaya Alexander yesterday, because yesterday was, um,

We're recording this on Wednesday. Yesterday was Rishon Gary's first 11-on-11 work since that ACL tear. I asked Jaira Alexander, what does a healthy Rishon Gary mean for you guys? He goes, a healthy Rishon Gary is like Superman. He makes my job so much easier. We've seen this secondary have some breakdowns. I still think they're very talented at corner. Safety could be an absolute disaster.

But how you remedy that is get to the quarterback and not make your guys cover for a long time. Safety, definitely the biggest question mark. Probably the personnel-wise is the entire team. At least we know who the receivers are going to be. They're highly drafted guys. You anticipate some growth from that. The front is a combination of young pieces that they were highly drafted, plus proven guys.

Their edge rushers go four or five deep now. It feels like with Lucas Fanness coming in. Devante Y. coming into year two has apparently made some pretty big strides. We know who the linebackers are. And the corner, like you said, Rousseau Douglas and Jair Alexander are going to be in the outside right now. Kishon Nixon's in the nickel. We'll see what happens when Airbrasson.

Stokes gets back, but that's a good problem to have. All of those spots feel fairly settled, right? Yeah. Safety, who are even the starting safeties on this team? Well, the problem is that Darnell Savage is the one locked to start at safety. He has been the one who's taken pretty much all the first team reps. Like, Darnell Savage was so bad last year that he was demoted from starting safety to, you know, the fifth DB in certain packages to the bench. I think it was week 12 when they played the Eagles on Sunday night, the game where,

Aaron Rogers thought he had a collapsed lung. And Darnell Savage might have played one snap that game. It might have been in Dime. And he missed a tackle on Jalen Hertz. It might have been and just didn't play for the rest of the game. Like, he got demoted twice last season. Came on late, had some good moments late in the season. But the fact that he's the sure thing to start at safety is concerning.

Now, he did make, I think it was the PFW. All-Rucky team. He was an all-rooky safety. He was a first-round pick in 2019. He's just not a playmaker. And at the second safety spot, they're rotating Jonathan Owens, better known as Simone Biles' husband, to Various Moore, who's been not a defensive starter for the 49ers in recent years. Rudy Ford, who came over here in camp last year as one of the top gunners on special teams in the league, and he does that really well, but he's just an average safety. And then Anthony Johnson, Jr., a rookie seventh round pick out of Iowa State. So it's not like they have one, okay, we're really confident in this guy.

I think it's just a matter of if they don't have anyone else, which is why I was a little surprised. You know, I understand not bringing back Mercedes-Louis because you have Luke Musgrave and Tucker Kraft. I understand not bringing back Robert Tunyon or Randall Cobb or Alan Lazard because you have Watson, Dobbs, Touré. You don't want to cut off opportunities and growth for those guys. Right.

But it's okay to cut off those opportunities for guys that aren't good enough. Or weren't first or second round picks. And Joe Barry spoke to us last Friday and said, yeah, that second safety spot is still up in the air. The season opener is on September 10th. It's like two weeks and four days away. It's concerning that nobody's risen to the top yet. I think it's just because they don't have good enough players back there.

That is the main concern on defense, I think, personnel-wise. I also have systemic concerns on defense because we can do this every single off-season where look at the depth chart and think, oh my God, look at all these guys. Look at all the first round picks they've spent. This guy should definitely be better in year two. And you talk yourself into a version of this defense that has never really come to fruition for long stretches of time. So I'm curious, based on the conversations you've had with people here, why should the results be different structurally than they've been over the last couple years? I don't know that people should expect them to be.

Like you said, they have the same personnel every summer we hear about how much. many first round picks they have. It's like I have amnesia every single July. I don't know if it's, you know, the easy person to blame is Joe Barry because anytime you don't have individual talent, like Kenny Clark, Devondre Campbell, Jair Alexander, Rasul Douglas, Quay Walker, Rishon Gary, they're all pro bowl caliber players. Yes. Or are capable of giving you pro bowl caliber play.

So it's easy to say, oh, well, it's on the coach then if they don't play as a unit. But we'd have to sit down with a lie detector, go through every mishap, every play, every assignment, you know, the conversations to really, you know, hand out blame. But like last season in week one, Justin Jefferson had like 180 receiving yards in the first half. Because Jair Alexander all week was asking to follow Justin Jefferson. Joe Barry said, no, we're not letting you follow him. And then after the game, Jair told me and Rob Demoski, like, yeah, I was asking him all week. you guys know what I want. And then Jair stayed with him in week 17 it was,

and Jefferson was totally shut out. Like, they need to let their players make plays. It'll help that Gary's healthy. But each of the past couple seasons, this is now Barry's third as defensive coordinator, they play really well for like half the season and then horribly for the other half. I remember in 2021,

they were, you know, they had maybe eight straight games, or they had a long stretch where they allowed less than 22 points in all those games. And then like the second half of the season, it was like 31, 30, 28. Then they just disappeared. Last year it was, they started off poorly, got themselves in a hole. They were three and six, I think. And then their secondary just comes alive. They had three interceptions of Tua in the fourth quarter in a game in Miami where they had to have to keep their season alive.

They need to put it all together. I don't know what it's going to take. but the key is not only a safety spot, but since 2018, when Brian Gutakunz took over as GM, this is the worst run defending team in the NFL. That's the prop. In terms of EPA per play, which I like to look at on true media.

Like Kenny Clark has never had enough help. They've had the Dean Lowrys, the Tyler Lancasters, the Jaron Reeves. I also think it's the way they played. Yeah. It's the structure of the defense. And I think that the Jaira Alexander example from the Justin Jefferson game is a very good one,

just forcing the issue more often, whether it be the amount of people you're cramming into the box, whether it be amount of man coverage that you're willing to play with some of the guys that you have. I just anticipate them forcing the issue more on that side of the ball than they have for most of the last couple years. And you would hope with that sort of mindset shift and even some of the where we position certain things and how we approach this, that you feel that over the course of a season rather than, again, some of that passivity that crept into the way they played over the last couple years. For sure. And it's maybe the most cliche word in the sport, but we've heard this camp, you know, we're going to be more aggressive. What that means, what it's going to look like, I don't know.

My guess is more man coverage. I would certainly hope so because they have, you know, Jalen Ramsey and Xavier and Howard probably number one on that list. But I would put Roussel Douglas and Jaya Alexander right up there in terms of the two best man corners, or I should say the best tandem of man corners in the NFL. And then when Stokes gets back, you have another guy who can play that way. Right, of course. He's stunk for the first half of last season before he got injured, but he was really good at a rookie as a rookie in 2021. And like you said, it's a good problem to have. Kishon Nixon has never played this much defense in his career.

First team all pro as a kick returner last year filled in a little bit at nickel. I believe specifically when Alexander went down in week three against the Buccaneers in Tampa. But, you know, he's never played this much defense. And Carrington Valentine, a rookie seventh round pick out of Kentucky. has been one of the stars at camp, so he's trying to get on the field and almost forcing the coach's hand. So they have some interesting decisions to make at corner.

In the secondary, they have too many options at corner and not nearly enough at safety. And the Rasul Douglas, the safety thing feels like a non-starter based on what I had heard today. It was a joke from Rasul. Now, Joe Barry said that he's never seen Rasul play safety. Rissuel played safety in practice, I think, once last year. He has the athletic skill set to do it. Now, if your goal is to get the best five DBs on the field,

then Rassool probably goes back to safety and Carrington Valentine comes in and plays outside corner, but it does not seem that is even a thought here. One of the other optimistic cases for why the defense will be better and why things just feel a little bit different here is that that version of the team that they were hanging on to,

some of those veterans that they were hanging on to, trying to squeeze everything they could out of the Aaron Rogers-led version of this. The youth movement, I think, gives you more athleticism, more speed, but also just more freedom in terms of like how guys are feeling playing. There just seems to be maybe a hunger or maybe a different vibe with all the young players that they have and kind of the atmosphere that that's created.

That's, I think, what they'll tell you. And I think they're banking on that. Do you think there's some validity to that? For sure. You know, there's definitely a different energy in the locker room. Like, yeah. Jair Alexander jumping up behind Jordan Love during interviews and saying this is the best QB in the league. Like after Family Night when John Coon was interviewing Jordan Love on the JumboTron,

you have Christian Watson, Romeo Dobbs, and Jane Reed putting up hearts to say love, beyond Jordan Love. He's earned the respect of people in this locker room. I think he's going to be voted a captain. They vote three captains on offense, three on defense, so I think teammates will vote him one just to be like, we respect you. And guys use a lot to motivate themselves, but I think there really is a feeling inside this locker room. I'm like, we're not a team that's just going to go eight and nine again just because we have a first year quarterback.

We're going to surprise some people. Now, they could go out and lose to the Bears week one, and then that's shot in the foot. But I do sense that there is a, let's prove some people wrong. And that hasn't been here in past years because nobody doubts the Packer. Nobody's doubted the Packers in recent years, at least not, are they going to be good? It's can they get over the hump and win the Super Bowl? Yeah. The question this year is, are they going to be any good?

And it's easy for guys to say, we can go out and prove people wrong, it's harder to be like, well, we can prove them wrong by winning a Super Bowl. It's easier to just prove them wrong by, you know, being good, which I think they will be. I have said all along they'll be 10 and 7 this year. They don't play a team that made the playoffs last year until week 8. Last question. In terms of the skill position roles, how do you envision the workloads shaking out? Like, what do you think Christian Watson's workload's going to be, the running backs as we ramp up here toward fantasy football drafts? I'm wondering, like, what sort of insight you might have for people with how this has looked in practice?

draft Luke Musgrave. You know, our Dane Bruegler, the draft genius, said in response to a story I had about Musgrave the other week, he said in most drafts, he would be tight end number one. The Packers hit the tight end lottery on day two with Musgrave and Tucker Kraft from South Dakota State. Musgrave is an athletic freak. They're running him on jet sweeps in practice, go routes. He made a catch today over the top of the end zone.

He's got to work on his hands. He's had a couple too many drops. And he had one foot out of bounds. He still didn't. The catch didn't count. And he had plenty of space to get that foot in bounds. You could see the athleticism now. You could see what he looks like.

This kid is going to get a bunch of touches. They haven't had a tight end like this since Prime Jermichael Finley, I don't think. I think Dobbs leads his team in catches. Watson is obviously more of like the big play guy and showed he can be that last year with like the Marquez Valdez Scantling four catches for 102 yards and two touchdowns stat line. But they're one A and one B. And I think Jaden Reed's going to get a lot of touches too. I remember talking to AJ Dill.

earlier in camp. And AJ Dylan said, you know, he obviously wasn't around for Prime Randall Cobb here in the early 2010s when he was tearing up the NFC North. But he said, I've watched the tape on Prime Randall Cobb, and Jane Reed, although he hasn't done anything in the league yet, reminds me of him. This kid is a really good route runner. His hands have gotten a lot better throughout camp. So those four guys, the two tight ends and three receivers, well, Tucker Kraft probably

less so, but Musgrave and then the three receivers are going to get a lot of play. And listen, I'm not going to sit here and say Aaron Rogers changed out of running plays and threw in completions because we just don't know which plays he changed out of, the results of them, if it was a good decision. But they can lean into their strengths now. Naturally, when you have Aaron Rogers as a quarterback, you're going to want to throw the ball to win games, as you should. But this team's strength, undoubtedly, without a shadow of a doubt, maybe there was one in past years,

is the running game. They have a top five offensive line. They were fifth and eighth and pass and run block win rate last year, the ESPN analytics stat, and they return everyone on the offensive line. David Bokhtiare and Elton Jenkins haven't been healthy and playing together consistently, consistently well in three years when they were both Pro Bowl starters for the NFC at left tackle and left guard.

Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon are back. You can make a case they're the best one-two punch in the league. Like run, run, run, and then this play action game has looked pretty good in camp. Yeah. And it's funny watching. this version of the offense and it almost being a truer version of who Matt LaFleur is. Oh, yeah. The compromise that he and Aaron Rogers eventually came to.

And I think that's kind of, if you're trying to spin this in an optimistic way, you're trying to rationalize it. It's now that we've kind of moved past this Aaron Rogers era, there's a freedom associated with everything, the offensive schematics, the lack of veterans cutting off opportunities to younger players. It just feels like there's a weight that's kind of been taken off this thing. The weight is helpful at the same time. He's a Hall of Fame quarterback.

But the dynamics feel like they've shifted in a way. For sure. Everything else is kind of allowed to express itself unimpeded, maybe in a way that it couldn't over the last couple years. And I think, you know, Matt Lafleur has really pushed back on the notion that we're finally going to get to see his real offense this year without Rogers. And then Mark Murphy, God bless his soul, steps to the podium on the first day of training camp and says, I think this year we're going to get to see Matt's true offense.

So if you ever want to know what the people within this building actually, actually think, just ask the team president because he has no filter. He'll tell you. Yeah, he will certainly tell you. Now, I don't know what Matt Lafleur's true offense will look like with all these players, but I'm excited to see how they use all these young guys because in past years, like, Robert Tunyon wasn't a downfield threat, really. Randall Cobb was, he did some good, but he was injury prone, losing Devante Adams, like they had a horrible red zone offense last year.

They went from Best in the League to absolutely terrible. So are Luke Musgrave, Romeo Dobbs, Tucker Kraft, going to get more, you know, options in the red zone? And will they return to that gold zone that they had with Nathaniel Hackett a couple years ago? It's possible. I think the unknown surrounding this team makes it so intriguing this year. I 100% agree. It's going to be fascinating to watch. And there are going to be some fits and starts, I'm sure, on offense.

But I think there's justifiable reasons for optimism. Match time. Thank you very much for the time, sir. Always good to chat with you. We'll catch up soon. and no interruptions for the third recording of this podcast. Joining us now is one of our wonderful Bears writers here at the Athletic. Kevin Fishpane, how you doing, man?

You know, there are more people who write about the Bears than they had wins last year, I think. Are you counting Greenberg? I was counting John Greenberg. Yeah, that does. Adam Johns. If you want to throw Dan Pompeii in there, yeah. I mean, the Athletic was started in Chicago. It's not an accident that we have this many Bears people.

heading in to year two of the Matt Eber Fluse era, a lot of changes from this time last year. I think at this time, on August 24th of 2022, the Bears probably had the worst receiving core in the league. It was all about just getting to the end of the year and not ruining your young quarterback. And now a much different cast of characters, albeit beat up right now.

So I want to ask you, what do you think are reasonable expectations for Justin Fields in this offense, given everything that has changed over the last nine months. It's a great question because it's such a low bar to just improve from the worst passing game. It would want like a decade. And you're talking about like just overall passing yards. Yeah, pure volume passing yards.

Yeah, I know a lot of people point out like the bears are the worst yak in the league. Well, they also had the worst like lowest passing yards. Of course they had the lowest yak in the league. So I'm still trying to get my head around how big of a leap it will make. I'll say this. everything I've seen since the first OTA till now tells me that DJ Moore is going to be the number one reason this thing goes up. And I don't necessarily, I don't want that to come up as a slight to Fields. As right now have more confidence that DJ Moore is going to lift Justin Fields to new levels as opposed to Justin Fields maybe lifting a Chase Claypool and Darnell Mooney. That's okay. Yes. We have seen that work in other places. And you know the clips we've seen on social media over the last couple years of rookies drawing the logo of the team that they're playing. for. Yeah.

This bears off season feels like Ryan Poles, like drawing the Eagles. And it doesn't look quite right, but you get what he was trying to do. DJ Moore is kind of like AJ Brown. The offensive line isn't as good, but they're trying to make improvements along the offensive line. You saw what happened with Philadelphia. They had that midstream switch to a more run-heavy approach with their young quarterback, insulated him, give him some confidence, let him get some nice moments for

himself as a young player. And then when you add the right pieces, you can open up the office. offense and take this thing to an entirely new level. Ideally, I think that's probably how this works out. But again, it's a makeshift version of this where you're kind of scrambling it and crayon. It's not quite to that same level. Right. And you know that with the Jalen Hertz, and you can even throw the Josh Allen comparison when you think about the bills and Stefan Diggs, that these are usually the exceptions, right? Like the Jalen Hertz is the accepted. Now, I'm hopeful that just for all of us, because we all want to see players succeed, that that's going to start being the

norm. That's going to be normal for quarterbacks to have vast improvements when their coaches because with all the running quarterbacks I now have in the league, this is just going to be just a natural transition for coaches to get it. There's like a stop on the way. And the running and being able to use your legs has become like a stop on the way to being a fully developed quarterback or a more developed quarterback. And I don't think that progression plan and that development plan existed when we didn't have these sorts of quarterbacks in the NFL. So getting like halfway and then taking a little breather in your first second year as a starter and be able to rely on your legs to kind of raise your floor and bide you time, that's becoming a regular thing in

the NFL. That didn't exist 20 years ago. And for Fields with him specifically, I think that we saw the running start to open up some, make some things a little bit easier in the passing game last year, and then go back to the DJ Moore, he's the one that can show us what, because Fields is obviously a much more accomplished pastor than a lot of these guys were in college. Now we can have an entire podcast series about what Ohio State's offenses do and can do for quarterbacks in the transition in the NFL. But I think DJ Moore is, okay, he can maybe Fields can make an anticipatory throw now more often because he knows where DeJ Moore is going to be. He knows DeJ Moore is going to get there. He's going to beat his guy. He's going to catch the ball. He had that Ohio State

with Olava and Garrett Wilson. He knew those guys were going to beat their corners and he could get the ball to them. So DJ Moore maybe gives him that, like in a very, very small sense on some of the play action stuff, Colquette gave him that last year, where, you know, they were such a good running team that that opened things up and Colquette got a, you know, a bunch of touchdowns because of it. So using that like, it's funny because I feel like I'm not answering the original question, which is like, where is going this passing game. But I think that that's, I think that's the right place to start. I went back last year and never came anything, I made anything of it, but I remember talking to Brandon Bean and Shane

Steichen about this idea of when you add this true number one receiver. And I, DJ Moore, isn't Stefan Diggs or Adjadier Brown. It doesn't matter. Let's say he's 80% of that. When you add this guy who becomes a number one option within your offense, what it does is it can breed trust with your quarterback, and it can breed confidence because of that trust. You just play faster.

The stat I've thrown out, I don't know the exact number on it, but if you look at the first half of the season for the Eagles last year, against man coverage on like third down, the pure percentage of targets that AJ Brown earned in those situations was insane because he trusted him in those moments. So if you can breed that trust and that confidence, you can get your quarterback to play faster. That's all on paper. It's all theory.

But I get wanting to go down that road and seeing if it brings Justin Fields to a different place just in the way that he's progressing and the way that he's operating within the offense. And I always say this to bears fans. I mean, look, you get the question of probably 100 times this summer. I got it a zillion times about Justin Fields. I don't know what he'll be. And I don't think the bears know what he'll be. No. And they've kind of made that clear.

If you listen closely, like, they've never, there's never been this full-throated, you know, he's going to be a star. I've obviously at the end of the season, you want to know 100%. I'm worried that you're not going to get that. But, like, we don't know what, where he could take his game in terms of reading coverages and, you know, getting on the, like, you know, we don't, that's a problem with the Josh Allen comparison, right? Because Josh Allen's a unicorn. And I think Jaylon Hertz is a much better. I know obviously Jaylon Hertz was an MVP-esque player last year, but that was one season. Not to say he won't continue that, but I think Jaylon Hertz, I'm glad you brought up the Eagles, is the great comparison because if you can increase your accuracy, which is always a thing with quarterbacks, can you ever, can you become more accurate?

I think that Justin Fields can take his game to a lot because he's got a great deep ball. Can guys get open? Can he have a time, all those things? The other thing you mentioned about the Eagles, I think is interesting, not to get some too much of a tangent. when we're talking about the Ryan Poles thing is where do Ryan Poles also invests his second round picks defensive line, cornerback because they all talked last year when Philadelphia came here

every coach was saying that eagle's defensive line, that Eagles defense line is nowhere on the same solar system as the Eagles. It's also important to point out they're just so much further back in the development of the entire team. In the team building process, the Eagles were on stage five when they dropped AJ Brown into the mix. The Bears are on stage two.

So expecting the same team-wide results is never going to happen. But similar to what you were saying, the Eagles wanted to make sure they had an answer on the quarterback by the end of the last season. They had those two first round picks in their back pocket. If we get to the end of the year and he's the guy great. If we get to the end of the year and he's not the guy, fine. We can pivot and use this capital and this ammo that we've accumulated to go into

a different direction. And it feels like as much as we want to talk ourselves into this working with Justin Fields and with this model, the bears are in a very similar position. Yeah, they have Carolina's pick. And, I mean, we've all seen. how tough it is for rookie quarterback's teams to do well. So even if Bryce Young is a good season, I think we've all looked at the Panthers roster

and you can see that could be a top 10 pick. And the other thing too is like if Justin Fields struggles, you know, this team is probably winning six games, if not fewer. Because the defense is still probably going to be pretty bad. You just still have a long way to go with a lot of these things. So then you're talking about two top 10 picks and then you can get there. So obviously that's worst case scenario for the Bears.

And it's interesting too because. I wouldn't even call that worst case scenario because then your decision is made for you. Correct. Yes. That is not the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario for me is you're in this nebulous middle ground where is he the guy, is he not the guy? Well, maybe we should give him one more year and then you miss out on your window to find the next guy. That's worst. And the bears have found themselves in that cycle before.

We've seen many teams find themselves in that cycle before. I mean, you look at Jacksonville and Blake Bortles. I mean, obviously they cut that short, but we have a litany of examples of a team. We could be having this conversation about the Giants a year from now with what they did. And I understand why they did it. But yeah, that's the thing that Ryan Poles. And Ryan Poles kind of acknowledged that. I mean, as I say it publicly, you didn't go out and say, hey, if Justin Fields isn't good, well, I can just trade up. And that's easier said than done because I don't know how you're going to get into the top two next year because everyone's going to want those two

quarterbacks. But I should say, worst case scenario for Fields, right? That if he's not for Fields For fields, yeah. Because if he's great, he's going to have an exorbitant payday coming and the Bears can finally say we have our guy. But that's the other problem with like, and I hate to bring the financials into it because I'm a believer that you pay what the market tells you and you pay for great players and that's just football. But it's going to be a really hard decision for this franchise to sort through if he's good but not great. And what do you do with the contract next year? This is we're getting down a rabbit hole. That's like way too far.

But we've seen some creative solutions over the last couple of years in a few different ways. I'm not saying this would happen. But what the Packers did with Jordan Love where they kind of protected themselves, they gave him a little bit more money up front. That's one of them. And also, there is a new middle class of quarterback contracts that is emerging. The quarterback market, the quarterback contract market is becoming more efficient. If you look at the deal that Daniel Jones got, the deal even that Kirk Cousin signed his most recent extension, where it's for $35 million. now with these guys getting 50-502, there is a middle class of those deals.

So if there's a world where he's good but not great and you feel like, all right, well, if we make him the 13th highest paid quarterback in the league like Daniel Jones is, can we live with that? But that's a problem for an entirely another day. The DJ Moore addition, in my opinion, kind of lets the receiving core fall into place. It all makes a lot more sense now with him in the mix. You extend Cole, comette. The pieces are nice with the past catchers in the skill position, guys.

the offensive line, in theory, should have been much improved this year. Braxton Jones and left tackle goes into year two. You sign Nate Davis in free agency. You still have Tebman Jenkins who showed well a guard last year. You can move Cody Whitehaired center. You draft Donald Wright with a top 10 pick. On paper, great.

The paper has become tarnished over the last couple weeks here. I need you to give me an update on like the state of the Bears offensive line as it currently stands. Yeah, I would say best case scenario, the only one who's out for week one is Tevin Jenkins right now. And that's okay because you have Lucas Patrick. Doesn't the center, doesn't Cody Whitehair theoretically have a cast on his hand right now and can't even play center if he wanted to? So Lucas Patrick steps in at center.

And the Cody White Here saga of moving positions continues. By the way, I have a quick Cody Whitehair theory, which is if they never moved him to center in the first place, he'd probably be a pro ball guard at this point in his career. But that's it hasn't been a good development plan along the offensive one. But I think that, look, Lucas Patrick last, not at this time last year, in June of last year, was the Bears' best free agent acquisition. He was the one that internally they were so excited about from a leadership standpoint. That says more about the spending power that the Bears had last offseason. It was Lucas Patrick or Byron Pringle pretty much. That was it.

Those are the two big moves. Justin Jones, who ended up having a nice season for what he, you know, for what he meant. But yeah, that's what you're looking at. With, because it seems like Kevin Jenkins is not going to be ready to go reading the tea leaves. You know, the darnall right, you know, like again, darnall right could be back. Nate Davis is a mystery. He's missed so much time. Any sense of why that is?

No, he told us we're supposed to ask the trainers, but we're not allowed to talk to trainers. So I'm not sure where we're going to find that up. I'm just getting bad vibes, man. It's not, you know, what the thing is, it's not, he, we can only judge what we see out here. And we don't see him very much out here. And that tells me that he, at least from that perspective, doesn't really jive with what Maddie Rufus always talks about. Guys that love practice. Guys that love ball.

Guys that want to be here. Guys are going to play this high intensity. Now, maybe in week one, he steps in. He's an absolute mauler. And you see why they got him and he knows the system. But we just haven't seen it at all. So, yeah, you're right. I mean, even before all these entries, you had two cases for the offensive line.

You had Darnel Wright is as good as his draft slot and as good as Lewis Riddick says he is. Braxton Jones makes this big jump and I think we know he is the size, certainly, to be a good left tackle. Cody Wier knows what he's doing at center. You don't have to worry about him. Tevin Jenkins continues to ascend at guard and there were moments last year he looked like an absolute stud. And Nate Davis gives you, it plays what he's paid for, right? The flip side is what's kind of happening right now. Tevin Jenkins gets hurt.

Cody Whitehair is who Cody Whitehair is. We don't know what Darnell Wright could be in the NFL yet. Braxton Jones. Not play well last year. You start kind of pulling out individual bricks from the entire, from the house, and it's, you feel less and less good about it. Right, which is why the injuries are concerned, because you need those guys out there. I mean, there have been very few practices of starting five has been out there together.

So it's hard, you know, it's not important when you have an entirely new offensive line to have any sort of practice time together. Yeah, 17 days from the first game when you and I are talking right now. So obviously, as I said, you could have most of those guys back. It doesn't seem great for Devin Jenkins because there's just a lot of. mystery there. But yeah, that's going to be a problem because you don't want a situation where Justin Fields is running for his life all the time because, yes, he can make plays that nobody on

earth can make in those backyard football situations. But I'm very curious to see how defenses try to, you know, make up for that. You know, because I know you can't, you can spy him as much as you want, but you can't defend against a broken play. But I am very curious to see if we start, because teams are not going to want to give up 55 your touchdown runs to him like he did what three or four times last year. Moves that they made this off season, having your two essentially biggest, I'm terminated admins aside, but two biggest moves on off.

I guess they made so many moves. Those aren't even the two biggest moves. You make two big moves along the offensive line. You sign Nate Davis to a sizable free agent contract and use a top 10 pick on Darnell right. You do that and you use the resources in that way to make sure this is in place. We have enough in front of him where we're putting him in a decent enough spot where we can get our answers by the end.

That's my biggest concern here is that it is, remove those pieces and the shifting starts to happen, does that possible anymore? Do you feel good about the evaluation that you've gotten by the end of the season if the offensive line is in tatters? So it just, that's, there's a lot of consternation here on my end because that worries me. Yeah, it does. And you know what? They could have a good offensive line and you still could not get the answers.

I mean, like you could sit there and pick apart the rest of the offense. You could pick apart, you know, the defense as vastly improves as it should be, still is maybe be going to be average. I think if both, you know, that'd be good for them. It'd be a very good situation. So is the defense going to put him in tough spots still like they did last year? So like you could still end up in a spot where you just don't have the fullest evaluation of him or where this thing is going.

On offense, last question I have for you. What do we think the running back workload is going to look like in the roles within the running back room? Is that a situation where Roshan kind of becomes the guy by the end of the year where he has the traits, he has the little. the past protection elements where eventually with more reps, he kind of separates himself for this group, or do you think it's going to be a rotation for most of the season? I think that that scenario is definitely in play.

Didn't have to carry the ball ton at Texas when he did. It was incredibly effective and the coaches love him. I will say this. One of the one takeaway from camp is that Khalil Herbert has separated himself. And I was not expecting that. I thought that we could see Foreman as your week one starter. And we could see Herbert maybe take back. over in week four, Roshan in

week eight, and there just be a hot hand team, and it's going to drive fantasy owners nuts. Now, I'm thinking, it's Herbert, and there's a gap between before Foreman and Johnson. Just from when we've seen, you know, even just watching practice during special teams, remember, Cleo Herbert was a phenomenal special teams player in college, played a lot of phases with the Bears in the last two years.

I was watching special team drills. He was over with the running backs coach. He wasn't even doing it. And Foreman, who's never really done it in his career, was working with special teams. we know that's a Rochon Johnson specialty. So I think that Herbert is going to get the opportunity to be the guy for as long as it could hold on to it. And I just haven't seen enough from Foreman.

I know what he did at Carolina last year. That told me that he could take over that role. But I think it's going to be Herbert for a while. But I would not. I just think that, yeah, they're going to be like those old Patriots teams where it was Lawrence Moroni and Ben Jarvis Green Ellis. If you're one place to remember some guys, Patriots running backs edition. But like where Belichick would drive, you know, because you just never. knew who it was. And back then it wasn't that popular of a strategy. Now it seems like everybody's doing it.

So I go Herbert 1, Foreman, 2, Johnson 3 right now. But I think you're right though. I think by November, December, so it's when it gets cold and that physical style of Rochon Johnson really can impose as will. I think he could get there. Defensively, I know that they've made some big moves they went out, got Tremant Edmonds added at linebacker this off season. But it still feels like it's a really young group and a lot of those young guys are going to get opportunities to get a lot of playing time this season. What are kind of the problem areas, the concerns on defense, like the biggest questions you have personnel wise about who's going to start and where.

Yeah, well, the biggest question is the pass rush because even if it's Yanik and Gagwe and DeMarcus Walker, which it should be, I think you can make arguments for both those guys and Gagway has the skins on his wall of being an effective pass rusher. DeMarcus Walker's coming off a breakout year and he's got like an, a really unique body type where you can move them inside. So you could, you could convince yourself to feel good about those guys. You could also say, well, why is this in Gawai's fifth team and five, you know, four, three and four years?

Why did Walker spend so much time with these different games? I mean, his breakouts season when he was 28 years old. Right. So you have those concerns, you know, how quickly can Jervon Dexter be that three tech that is just, you know, he's got everything's body-wise. You want to be just a really disruptive force, but, you know, just getting used to the getoff. And they've talked about that a lot. that it's just the timing of that is pad level, all those things.

So that's kind of the number more concern. Like you can sit there and talk about potential of all these guys, but you just haven't seen it, which then brings you to what the strength of the entire team probably is, which is the secondary. Yeah. Because if you're not getting the past rush, there's two things that play. One, well, good thing you have a good secondary, but two, well, that kind of sucks because you can't allow your secondary to make the plays they're capable of making.

Even the secondary, there's still a lot of youth. I mean, you got two second year players in Jaquan Brisker and Kyle are Gord. You have Tyreek Stevenson probably going to start on the outside and one side, correct? So he's a rookie. And then you have Jaywin Johnson and Eddie Jackson. In theory, that could be a really good group that could maybe mature faster than even the most optimistic case would lay out. But still, there's a lot of projection involved with that. There is.

What makes me feel good about it is Kyler Gordon probably had the best camp than maybe anybody on defense. That's good to hear. And then he was, to me, a big question mark coming to this. I felt like I saw enough from Joquan Bursker to kind of get a sense of him. Yeah, I think he's going to be a really good player. He's that flashed brilliance at times. Like he sometimes needs to get his feet under him in the run defense better, and he's admitted that. But with Gordon, I mean, just quarterbacks attacked him last year.

And he started to come into his own at the end of the season. But to see him make so many plays on the ball and camp, I think was really encouraging. And Jaylon Johnson's just been steady. And he knows what he has to do. He's got to make plays in the ball. He's got to turn the ball over. Contractier. Yeah.

he gets it. And I think that, you know, he's been solid. Stevenson's, we've seen Stevenson's best and it is eye-opening. I mean, he is physical. That Ryan Poles traits, bat, that man. I mean, that's wild. They got some athletes on defense. And I think that's the hope, right, is that you've volume shot with those second round picks and some of the draft volume or draft picks that you've accrued. And we're going to bet on athletes and traits. And hopefully we can coach these guys up and get them to a certain place. But there's still, it's a lot of projection and a lot of youth involved in that plan, at least in the short term. I mean, look, Deverand Dexter and Zach Pickens were like all-world basketball players in high school and then five-star recruits. And you look at Tremaine Edmonds.

The reason they love him so much more than a Roquant Smith is his size and his length. And then you go look at Tyreek Stevens and he is just built not the way that you're not used to from a corner. And then you put in the size and speed. You're like, oh, my goodness, like what he can bring. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of what they're building. Yeah, I saw someone wrote a story for another outlet about the Chargers having a basketball team at wide receiver. Yes. And while the Bears have a basketball team in the middle of their defense and trying to, at least.

I think the hope on defense is that you have a certain play style by the end of the season. They play hard. They're in the right spots. Even if the youth and inexperience shows up every once in a while, you have an identity on that side of the ball by the time the season is over. Last year, you just throw it out. I mean, they tore it down to the studs on purpose. You have guys that were street-free agents and are deep backups on this team that were getting a ton of work on last year's version. So if you can have this kind of youth movement happen where it's not a fully formed product by the end, but you see enough flashes from these guys.

You can project it in the next year, the year after that, that feels like success on that side of the ball. Yeah. And I want to be careful because I obviously don't want to mean this disrespect to guys who might get cut. But Kindleville, Dore, who was a fifth round pick, who had some nice moments for as a fifth round pick coming from where he came from, was a starter for this team at times. And Travis Gibson, fourth round pick, a starter for this team. He was their really best threat against the quarterback two years ago, and then it just kind of fell off last year. I mean, Gibson still has a chance to make the team. I don't think Vildor, just the way the depth chart is shaking out,

his time of his Chicago is probably. That's all you need to know. But exactly. They've got, they now can move on and replace those guys with, you know, upgrades at those positions. I mean, even if Travis Gibson makes a team, you're talking about he's probably your number four,

number five defensive vet. If Vildore made the team, he'd be your number six corner. Those guys were starting last year. They were starting two years ago. So that just shows you. what they're doing. And I also think to analytics-wise, you don't pay

the way the Bears paid for Tremaine Edmonds and T.J. Edwards. But if you're the Maddie Buflu's defense and those positions, especially your Tremant's, is that integral to what you're trying to build like you see play out. And I also'm not going to complain about how much they spent. They had all the money in the world. Yeah. If you look at the cap hits, he has a $22 million cap hit next year. They still have $80 million in space.

He's a 25-year-old player. we were betting on you're getting in front of the age curve rather than being at the end of it while signing a guy in free agency which doesn't always happen right this is all well and good we can talk about all of this and the plan on defense and everything if the offense and the quarterback don't come together none of this matters like that the end of the day is what is going to define this season and we're like you said 17 days away from starting that process and seeing how it goes yeah and you know what it's almost unfortunate that philadelphia did what they did last year because i think the people who have i don't even want to call him pipe dreams about Justin Fields because you can make a very realistic scenario that he takes off because he's that physically gifted. I get it. But, you know, I think it's unfair to him. It's unfair to the Bears to hope this team becomes the Eagles, to hope his team becomes the bills this year. They don't need to do that. They just need to take a step forward. You know what? Robert, this is my 11th year covering team. And I ask for very little. I ask for relevant games in December. Give me relevant games in December to cover. And,

And I don't mean like relevant, like going for the number one pick relevant. I'm excited to see what it looks like. They've done enough this offseason where I'm intrigued with what the plan is. Now the plan is has to come together. That's it. Kevin Fishbane, very much appreciate the time. Sir, always good to see you. Always good to chat with you.

We'll talk soon. Thanks for having me. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Alec. Thank you to Matt. And thank you to Kevin. And thank you to everyone who listened to these shows over the course of training camp. We did 15 teams, almost half the league.

We did 16 teams, five of the years. shows and then one conversation about the dolphins that we put in another show. So half the league. Hope you guys enjoyed them. I certainly enjoyed doing them. A reminder, we have a very special new show coming for you guys on Monday. Please be on the lookout for that. Cannot for that. Cannot wait for you guys to hear what we have cooking up this season. So please be ready for that on Monday. For now, enjoy the rest of your weekend. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.