The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Taysom Hill shows up, Colts conquer Packers, debating Nick Chubb vs. Derrick Henry, Carson Wentz might be broken & more in our week 11 review

Episode Date: November 23, 2020

From Taysom Hill leading the Saints to a win in his first start, to the Colts outlasting the Packers in OT, the NFL's week 11 for 2020 was full of unexpected surprises, The Athletic's Robert Mays is joined by Nate Tice to break down the biggest storylines like the Raiders nearly pulling it off against the Chiefs, what the heck is happening with Carson Wentz, and the guys find time for a debate about Nick Chubb and Derrick Henry.Cash in on The Athletic's Black Friday Deal at theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me tonight. It's my buddy Natey, Nate. How are you? Doing great.

We only have a half dozen weeks of games left, and I don't like that at all. I'm doing great other than that. You know, week 11 was another fun Sunday after a good Thursday game. And, you know, I'm just not ready for that. We've got six weeks left of this. And then the playoffs, I just don't like that, though. I have no idea what week it was. I kept thinking it was week 12 today.

And every time I'd punch NFL week 12 into Google, which is how I look for the schedule. I don't, there's probably a more efficient way to do it, but that's always how I do it. I'm hoping I'm right every time. I'm always like, I think I'm waiting. And you're looking at the news articles for like all of a sudden because whatever comes on with Google is the fancy articles. And then you're like, is this the right week? No, he's not hurt this week.

Oh, shoot him on the wrong week. I do it every single time. And every time I punch. in week 12, the Thanksgiving games come up and I was like, God damn it. I can't get this right for whatever reason this week. Also, I'm on the East Coast and I do not like it. It's currently 12, 17 a.m. I'm recording this on Monday morning technically. I shouldn't be responsible for anything that I say. It's a long-ass day. I got like a real workout in and ate lunch and the game still hadn't started yet. I was like, what is happening right now? This is going to be way too long of a day. But the day did not

disappoint. You and I were both talking about how we were excited about Colts Packers, which lived up to the building, even though it didn't seem like it was going to for the first half. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to Sean Payton getting the last laugh, man. I mean, we will discuss that. Big day from Deshawn Watson, huge win for the Titans. Before we get to any of that, though, let's start with the Sunday night game, which everything you could have wanted from that game, I think on several different levels, all the points you could have wanted going into it.

And I think despite the outcome, which is an outcome we've gotten used to, right? Just Patrick Mahomes, horror villain that he is, marching through inevitable, unstoppable, in the end, is always going to make it happen, it seems. It's not worth having hope and Patrick Mahomes is on the other sideline. But if we, aside from that,

even if the ending wasn't what you wanted, I think overall the product is probably what you would have wanted to see as a Raiders fan. I came out of this being more optimistic about the Raiders than I did coming into it. I don't know how you feel. I do. I mean, we've seen so much with the Raiders. Their offense has just been really fun throughout the entire year. We know their defense.

I mean, they did whatever they did to the Broncos last week, but their defense is still a big question mark. They're still figuring it out. But on offense, they're just fun. Like they run some great run game stuff. You can see what they're trying to do. the passing game and we're going to talk about car probably in a minute and like the improvement he's shown already but it is funny like that mohomes is just going to always you know he is the villain he is the series the slasher killer because he's always going to get to that final scene so

no matter what happens throughout the entire game he's going to be there at the end you always know he's going to be there for that last 10 minutes of the movie so you have to figure out what what the path is that he gets there is it just destruction behind him or is it just that final fight scene with you know Jamie Lee Curtis in the closet. It's just going to be one of those two things. Oh, see, I see Linda Hamilton and just Terminator 2 in the factory where he just won't die. That's just how it feels like, yeah, you've got to put him in the, if you don't put him in the bucket of just boiling hot magma, there is no way that he is not coming after you. That's how it feels with him at this point.

And tonight, Derek Carr played that role of the last woman or last man standing until Patrick Mahomes. And I'm curious what you've seen from Derek Carr this year because we talked a lot about the Raiders on Wednesday show. Vic and Tashon were on, we did kind of a deep dive on where they're at. And I think that they've surprised a lot of people in the win-loss column. But like you said, their offense has been fun. And it's been effective. And it's been well put together. They just have a purpose behind their stuff.

They're making things easy on their guys. And tonight was no exception. But I think at the center of that is Derek Carr. because you could have said similar things about their offense last year. And I think that Gruden, for the most part, has been a great play caller since he's come back, and he's been even more impressive than I thought. But if I were kind of pointing out the difference between this year's Raiders team and last year's Raiders team and building a case for why we should be paying more attention to them, it's the steps that Derrick Carr has taken

to be an even more dangerous quarterback. So you have a ton of experience with Derrick Carr. You worked with Derrick Carr. You know him extremely well. Walk me through just how closely you worked with him when you were in Oakland, what you saw from him then and what you think is different about the guy you're watching now. Yeah, I was with Derek for two years and I was in the quarterback room the whole time. I was a quality control coach there.

And with Derek is I think something that's been overlooked with him is he is a very cerebral player. And it's very knowledgeable with protections and very knowledgeable just with the game of football. He's a big student of the game. I actually have said, I have said this in the past is that it sometimes works against him. is that he's already on step five when he should be going through the process to get to step five and getting in that process maybe allow him to do something else rather than throwing the ball away or checking the ball down, which is something we've pulled our hair out about with Derek over the years. And it's fun to see him this year.

And I want to say really quickly that independent of you, I had a conversation with Bill Musgrave recently who was in, who was the office coordinator for that team. And he said compared to, and he's coached young quarterbacks through his entire career. He coached Christian Potter when he was a rookie. He coached Byron Lefich when he was a rookie. He coached Matt Ryan when he was a rookie. And he said to me specifically, he could put more on Derek Carr's plate mentally than any of the other young quarterbacks he ever worked with. So I've also heard that independent of your experience.

So continue. Yeah. And that's the thing is like he, we have a quarterback center meetings that every week and it goes out to protection. You kind of like they, we're all usually on the same wavelength. But, you know, there might be something that Ronnie Hudson wanted to call differently. that or we have to talk something through might be a unique look that we all saw and derrick and randy were always in lockstep with everything they go and you could see tonight was so much fun because we got to hear how much communication was going on on both sides and i mean colonsworth was going nuts about

it too and it was a lot of fun it was really fun it was cool because you got to see it's two quarterbacks that communicate a lot and so it was every play it was just not just a third down pressure look it was like no every single play you can hear all the chatter hey you're good here hey were you point to no hey Mike 74 or Mike 54 you know all that stuff we're good and that I're good like Henry I need you or like Darren I need you here it's just it's amazing how casual some of the dialogue is yeah in those moments when everything is so high stakes and so frantic it's crazy when you get that comfort level especially with rodney and Derek but that's like a quarterback center pairing is he's also on a different level too yeah I mean he's just the best I when I was with him those two years I I was kind of said was like

Like, we should test him for spatial awareness because he is probably the point zero zero, zero one percent that he's in a three point stance and he can just see stuff. And it's just, it's crazy because Derek will walk up and go, hey, you see it. And you hear a rod because he has a real thick Alabama accent. We're good. And then you just hear that or just, you just, that's all you hear in their communication. And it's just like, no, but there's such pros. And with Derek, though, it's sometimes you almost want to take away the checkdown from him,

almost like, hey, throw it deep. Just you have to throw it here. Because Derek would be like, I don't really like it. I'm going to check it down. Hey, I don't really like it. I'm going to throw it away. And there'd be a game where he might get ticked off or a coaching point happened the whole week and he'll be aggressive throughout the entire game.

And it's like, oh, that's good. Then next week he reverts right back to it. This year, though, is they took away last year with this offense. You started seeing some pieces and seen this flashes, this explosiveness and this run game. They're going run game and quick game. And I felt that was kind of redundant. If you have a good run game, you don't need a quick game. It's almost like a waste.

It's a waste. And so I think what they realized that too, they took rugs early, which I'm not going to be a huge fan of. But he is going to be a nice complimentary piece at some point. It's really rough. I know. It's really rough. And I was thinking that exact thing today. And I was watching them a lot last week.

And you're seeing the space that he creates. And that's great. And it's nice to have that space. And it absolutely has a use and it has utilities. But you don't need to draft that space 10th overall. That's the difference. You can find speed. mean in a lot of places.

Anyways. No, it's, that's so true. I know when they took him, it was just like, of course they did. But it's like,

that's what I got why. It was, they wanted to take the top off because they want to hit intermediate. Yeah, dude, but you can find the top off in an undrafted guy. Third round,

fifth round, six round. Jaylon and Caliph Raymond can take the top off. Scotty Miller in the sixth round. Your boy. Like, you can take undrafted guys all the time. It's,

it's such a quality. It's like finding a home run hitting DH. Like, you're going to find it. Like, you know, it's, you're going to find, it's the rebounding, a low post threat off the bench for you in the center. Like, they're these replaceable qualities. But I digress. But it's, but here's that important thing about that.

Yeah. I think if you're really trying to scheme and build aggressiveness into him and your offense, you're almost paying to force car into that mindset. Yeah. I think we've seen a little bit more of that from him this year. Would you say the willingness to push the ball is the main contrast between the guy, you're watching now and the guy you were with five years ago? I would say, yeah, pushing the ball and also just creating stuff with his legs. I would my last year with Derek, he wasn't scrambling at all.

Like he was low, low, low, low scramble rate. And he now, it's still not, you know, it can be anywhere high, but at least he's doing something. Because if you're not going to scramble as at the quarterback position, and teams can just run man defense against you. And if you're not going to dice him up, a guy's not winning or you're not going to dice him up with a throw, you have to turn and scramble because guys are going have their back to you and you can maybe get some cheap third down conversions or second down

conversions. But now it's it's he was never doing that. Or get out of the pocket and make a throw out of the pocket. Yes. So somebody comes to you. You're making a play with your arm. Changing the defense with your legs, even if you're not taking off.

Yeah. And it also helps off the coaches because sometimes not the coaches aren't always throwing fastballs as we all know. So it's so it's so it. But that's what it can help. It's like sometimes the coaches are dialing up some great stuff and you don't have to create. But sometimes maybe they're not or a guy's not winning initially. we saw Mahomes. Mahomes does it. I mean, we all know just does everything well. But a guy like a Kelsey will run a route. And if that was any other quarterback or a quarterback that just stays in a pocket and doesn't create that extra second. A great point. Yeah. He creates a throw. And that's creating throw. Some guys do it by literally throwing the ball guy open. And there's some great guys that do that. But also a guy might create an angle, almost like a little mini sprint out. And Derek's doing that more. It's even the touchdown to Witten. I mean, the throw is a duck. But great example.

the spot and he moved. It was, it was great. But he's doing it more consistently. It used to be once a game and he would be like, oh my God, can you do this like eight times a game? And now he's doing it maybe four or five times a game. Even that little ad lib flip to Waller when he was getting out of pressure on the left side where he pops it over somebody.

Even those sorts of plays just, they weren't happening very often because he didn't have the ball in his hands long enough to make them happen, let alone is he moving around. It was out so fast. And I think that's a big difference. The types of plays they're looking for. And it really does seem to all be coming together. Tonight's a really crushing loss, but it's a crushing loss to the team that crushes your soul. It's not surprising.

I think that we have to step back from the result and just think about what that game looked like for four quarters. And I think the question now is, and I will get to it a second, just where I think they can go and how you think they fit into the AFC picture. Before we do that, though, so there are some, the communication part was definitely, in my opinion, the thing that stood out from this broadcast and just the different games we've seen. So a lot of one word audibles came up today. They used Hardin for an ISO run. There were a couple other ones that just made me smile. So I'm curious, in your days, just in quarterback meetings coming up with stuff, did you have a favorite one word play call or one word audible call? You know, so with words, especially at the NFL level, you kind of keep them a little bit serious.

You might have some fun stuff. But like college signals, that was the best. Because then you get, you know, there's a jerk in every offense. you know there's a hard in a lot of offenses so you get you know you got a bunch of college kids like of course they're in the the coach doesn't care sorry mom yeah and I mean in in the NFL it'd be maybe a couple little jokes or maybe an inside joke like hey a hard count is named after the or the the long count's named after the old wine coach because he takes forever you know something like that yeah but the only one I had was we had a play down in the red zone it was like just how the

formation was because it was kind of like a very designery play but we ran it a lot. So then rather than saying this 12, 14 word play, we're like, hey, what's just short and down so we can just say formation, protection, and just this word. And so we're thinking, thinking. And in the play, it had naked, it had slide. It had a number in it. And so my idea at the time, and I'm, you know, the youngest guy in the staff, I was like, oh, how about Instagram? And everyone kind of was like, what? And it was like, oh, slide and naked. And it was just one of those things where everyone was like, oh, my God, shut up, Nate. But I was like, I was like, oh, hey.

I was so proud of it. And then they just shout out over it. But I'm the same age as the player. So I'm like, they're going to know that. Like, hey, this is, this is good coaching. But, you know, young and stupid. I threw it out there. And then I was like, okay, I know my role.

I'm going to be quiet now. So the Raiders are six and four now, which disappointing when you could have won that game and really kind of been in the driver's seat in the wildcard racing the AFC. But if you're looking at the seven and three teams in the playoff picture in general in the AFC, we're going to get to the Ravens. They're on the outside looking in right now, which is kind of crazy to think about, considering the hopes they had coming into the season. But it's been a rough ride. Dolphins also on the outside looking in.

We have the Browns, Raiders, Titans, Colts all kind of jumbled up there at that 7 and 3, 6, and 4 mark. Do you think the Raiders have a chance to be the most dangerous team of that group? Do you think of that collection of teams, they have the best shot to knock off, whether it's the Steelers, the Chiefs, if we really get down to it here in the postseason? So you're saying the Titans, Browns, Ravens, Dolphins? Yeah, all the teams are like that AFC wildcard picture. Oh, man. I, how the Titans played today. I really am just liking what they do.

But yeah, it's, that's tough. But then, yeah, but then I don't know, it's talking about both sides of my mouth because then you got the Ravens. And I think with the Raiders, I just think their defense is just a year away. I think they can be a fun, interesting team. And if they do make the playoffs, whatever game they're going to be in, it's going to be a fun little explosion. You know, it's a firework factor.

Yeah. But I think they're your way from being like making a lot of noise. If they win a playoff game, that would be astounding. I think they're just still, but they're, I think they're legit playoff team in the sense that it's not like they're getting lucky. I think they are a team that deserves a wild card spot though. I think they have the best offense of all of these teams. Really?

Okay. All of those teams of Tennessee, the Colts, the dolphins, the Browns, the Raiders. I think the Raiders have the best offense of that entire group. Let's say they get Brown back. They might get incognito back by the end of the season. So let's say their offensive line is healthy. You have a past catching group where Nelson Aguilar suddenly looks like a very real NFL player. And you have Waller, Jacobs.

I think that, again, rugs, whatever the value of it is, that piece in the formula matters. I just like how it all fits together. I think that by season's end, they could be definitively the best offense in that group. And that's the side of the ball. I'm just more willing to bet on because I just think it's more consistent. I think you're bringing it every week. And I just have more faith in their offense than anybody else right now. I know that's strange to say, but I really like what they're doing on that side of the ball.

They're consistently scoring points. You're not against whoever they face. And the Chief's defense is good. The Chief's defense is not like a terrible defense. And they're moving the ball. You could see every time they kind of kept showing Mahomes on a sideline, a little frustration. It was kind of creeping in. He knew he had to.

to score. He did because he was doing the whole those shoulder pads kind of look where he kind of took a breath like kind of like, okay, D, are we going to get the ball back? Or like, you know, but you could tell like that's what the Raiders can do because they can lowly to sleep with all these, those six, seven yard gains, 12 year gains. And then that's what they're trying to do. It might not be with rugs, but they're doing with Aguilar down the field. You know, they're hitting shots. And Waller is, I mean, no one can guard Waller. I mean, he's he's a way they use him is really fun. Yeah. use him in a way that kind of mimics what the chiefs do with Kelsey.

They're using him as the ex-receiver on the backside of three-by-ones. They're using him as a match-up nightmare doing a lot of stuff where they'll do like 12 personnel and they'll have him be offset and they'll have the first tight end do a little clear out for him so he can work against the guy in man coverage. They are scheming up ways to put him in space and he takes advantage of it. And that's kind of what I'm getting at when I'm just talking about their offense. It just seems like everything has a purpose, everything makes sense. everything has a motivation behind it and the pieces all fit together.

It's exactly the type of things you want to see in an offense. Man, it's so much fun watching their run game. It really is, like just the stuff they're doing. And they, you got to watch it too. But like, you know, even having Colton Miller back, you know, they were talking about a little bit tonight. But if they just keep improving, they're scoring points without these, this O line help that they had.

It's, you know, Rodney's doing a great job up front. Gabe Jackson's doing a fine job. It's just great, too, is that they also have like, and the Titans are this way too. They have multiple tight ends. Like Jason Witten's a role player. He was like, you know, and like that's pretty nice to have like a true. And our boy, Alec Ingold was back today.

Yes, yes. Oh, I know he had a disappointing drop. I thought he was going to like snag that thing too. I love that play too. And they sneak those in. And I just think that having those in your arsenal, I love it. Yeah. We're going to move on.

The funniest thing about this is the Raiders lost that game tonight. We just don't care to talk about the Jeeps anymore. We just spent 20 minutes talking. about how much we like the Raiders and they lost that game. But I do think, again, let's not get too preoccupied with the outcome. Look at what that game actually looked like and what they've looked like in two games they've played the Chiefs. I really do think their offense is impressive.

And I do think even after that loss, they're still in the playoffs if it started right now. And I do think they could be there by the end because of how their offense is playing. All right. Let's get to who won the week. Just win, David. There is only one place we could start this. and that is with Sean Payton. Sean Payton stuck it to everybody.

So I woke up this morning and when did the news came out? Was it official this morning that Tastom Hill was going to start? I think it was. It was about 9 a.m. my time, give or take. My reaction to that news was that Sean Payton is just bored. And I tweeted out something that Luke McCallon told me last year. It was a story I was working on about. Drew Brees and Sean Pate and their relationship.

And he told me the story about a meeting in 2014. They were playing the Falcons. And Peyton kind of rolled in to their Wednesday meeting and just had this design. He was like, this is a touchdown first play of the game. I know it just based on what they do when you do this sort of thing. It almost reminds me of he knew the way the Eagles would respond to Taysam Hill. They treat him like a tight end in a certain formation and they just bang the Eagles with it over and over again. Yeah.

And the reason that I said that wasn't trying to. Say that Sean Payton doesn't like Drew Breeze or anything like that. I think it's an indication that Sean Peyton just loves this shit. He loves the game of figuring it out. He loves coming up with answers. And he's just maniacal about it. He'll just, in practice, just find, all right, I want you to put down your split a yard and a half here because he'll do this to this guy.

He's a tinker. He is. He is. He absolutely is. Every story I've ever heard about him, he is. And he loves finding the goat. on those defenses too. He loves finding his guy.

He's like, that's my dude. I'm going at you every single play. Oh my God. He gets a kick out of it. And I think this was the manifestation of that personality trait with Sean Payton, where he's like, all right,

I want to figure out. And I think that in Report tweeted this, part of the reason for starting Hill is he wanted to figure out whether he was the guy. But I also think he wants to figure out if he can do this and figure out this version of his offense. And today they did that. I understand the Falcons. defense is bad. But I think a lot of the things they did, which is the nuts and bolts of this

offense with him at quarterback, was fascinating. So they went 24 to 7. Hill goes 18 of 23 for 23, 51 yards on the ground and two touchdowns. Michael Thomas shows signs of life, nine catches for 104 yards. So what elements of just the overall structure of the offense really jumped out to you? What do you think they leaned on that allowed this to be possible? It looked like more of the Sean Payton stuff of old. Like it had more of that play action feel, the heavy play action stuff. And it was out of slot formation. So like a hip being like two tight ends and then two receivers on the other side split out. And he was running that. Why teams like to run that is because it is kind of an easier read for a quarterback. It makes it a half field read for you. And it turns into a chunk play to check down. And what they can do with like a Tassum Hill. And this is actually what the time. Titans do with Tannahill, they run these two man play actions that are really touched on to checkdown or a gash play to checkdown. And then the other checkdown is the quarterback can use

their legs. So if they face these man coverages, because that could sometimes happen. It's like, okay, just hit the checkdown. But the checkdown might be gloved up because the line or the linebacker or whoever is just standing right on him because that's his man assignment. But when you get a guy that can use their legs like a Tannahill or Tassum Hill, that becomes a separate weapon because those lead to like explosive 12 yard rushes by the quarterback. So I saw a lot of that little play action stuff. They were doing the slot and then they're also doing a little power passes, which is Spider 2. You know, like that we know what Gruden likes to do.

Like, well, that's a power pass protection and run a guy into flat. But what that is, it's making it very easy reads for Taysam Hill. And if shit breaks down, then he can just use his legs. And it creates good scrambles because the routes are down the field and the defenders have their backs turned. And so he has a little more space to work with. It's interesting. It was a good defense to go against, I think, for his first start at quarterback.

you know you know what you're going to get with the falcons defense they're not running a varied varied looks um so yeah it was interesting to see he performed much more admirably than i was even going to credit for he's a dynamic player don't get me wrong but i didn't think he'd be able to consistently put drives together uh yeah it was it was an interesting experiment and yeah i think sean peyton's the real happy one tonight just going like yeah yeah i got i got a division win with tason hill at my quarterback shot peyton built the engine and tason hill just had to keep the train on the tracks. I mean, that's how it felt.

There were some nice plays, though. There was the first completion he had to Troutman early in the game where it was Thomas on a slant from the right slot and then Troutman on a little reverse. What's a reverse whip called? A WOP. Is that true? I've been to right places where it's that or a ham or something like that. Yeah.

He had Thomas on that one and then he came off of it to Troutman on that little like reverse whip. And he had a couple of those where he's like, all right, I see him actually moving his eyes and he's not just throwing it. He's not Drew locking it, where it's just the guy, I'm picking this guy, and that's exactly where it's going. And just stuff that made sense.

Like he had a completion of Thomas on a deep over where they fake the toss to Camara going left. He came back around. It's the stuff you'd expect to see, but it worked. They used six offense alignment on 12 snaps. I think that's a way to get defense and base.

The Falcons had three linebackers in the field a ton. Play action, throw the ball in behind it. They were doing that consistently. It was worth. And that's the stuff that works. And I just, again, I just think it's really interesting to watch somebody like Sean Peyton try to provide answers in this situation and try to find answers with this type of guy. And I think he enjoyed it.

And I think that he's probably enjoying it even more because it works the degree that it did. What helps them so much is that their run game stuff is so good. So they're always going to be lifted a little bit. So that's why he can get away with some of the stuff he was doing with Taston Hill today. and I just care I just want to keep seeing this unfold like I just want to see it's like is he getting it can keep working or do you think this is a one time thing or it's like all right now that we see what they're going to try to do because you can't jump on teams a little bit yeah and that's what I was about to say is because that that two man stuff can get gloved up like it can get

sniffed out and you're living off checkdowns or or the QB trying to scramble or something like that or they're letting you take the shot play and then like because usually those will have a post on it And that's the alert. And are you going to have Taysom Hill through five of those a game or just the one where it's, everything's perfect? So I'm curious. I think who they have next week or next game,

they have the Broncos. So they have Fangeos. So that would be an interesting little, I want to see it against that defense. We'll see if the Taysom Hill experiment could survive a little bit of match quarters and that defensive front. I will say I, I'm curious to see the same thing.

But it seemed in the first half when they weren't moving the ball at all. It was almost like when you're talking to a little kid at a family party and you're like, right, how long do we got to do this? How long do I have to humor? It's Sean Payton is like that I have to like humor him for like 20 minutes here and then we can get to the real stuff. That's kind of how it felt in the first quarter. And then it actually started working.

So I'm not sure how if it can continue against better defenses than the Falcons. But I will say one weekend, Tassam Hill experiment looks to be going, okay. All right. Let's get to our next candidate here. I'm going with the Colts, man. That is a huge comeback. Huge. I mean, down 28 to 14 at halftime.

They come back 34, 31 and overtime. They go to 7 and 3, leading the division. Huge game with the Titans here on the horizon. So I think a few things jump out about the comeback. First of all, the fact that they came out running in the second half, I actually loved. It was like, all right, we know we can still gash them here. They're going to do the pet and thing where they're playing dime. And on that first drive, they essentially are like, all right, you guys want to do that?

Fuck you. and they came out in 12 personnel with both tight ends on the same side and we're like we're just going to run it down your throat Quentin Nelson had a huge drive and I like that they stuck with that because that was a way they maintained possession in the second half

they kept the ball out of Roger's hands it helps when you're picking up first downs and they can't get first downs but I just thought that them sticking with what they wanted to do they knew how they could still attack them I thought that was really impressive on defense though they came up with some huge plays

was there anything about their defensive game plan in that second half that stuck out to you? Or was it just kind of a smattering of big time plays in high leverage moments? Because that's what it felt like to me. Yeah, it was a smattering. It was fun watching Rogers against like a heavy cover two team. Like it felt like those old Bears games. Like it honestly did.

It was because those matchups are the best because it's the awesome quarterback that knows exactly what the defense is going to be in. And the defense knows their weaknesses that the quarterback is trying to exploit. And that's what leads to the Rocky Austin interception was. I was going to ask you, is that just. a great play by him or is that a funky coverage? Really? No, it was it was just covered too.

And so what the Packers try to do is they try to hit the whole shot, but they try to hit it from inside. So he ran an inside fade attacking the same spot just to change up how you hit it because that defense knows where their weaknesses are. So you got to change up how you attack it. So that's smart. But what happened is the outside guy ran an under route. And Rocky Austin made a really heads up play.

Just let it go. He goes, hey, I got nothing underneath me in the flat. All right. I'm going to soften up. He softens up right at the right time and just makes a hell of a play. So is you think that's a coaching point? Like, all right, if he's going, you just book it. Because that's what it felt like to me.

It's like, all right, something triggered in my brain. Yeah. I see that. I'm turning around and I'm flying. You can see his light bulb go off. You can just see him go. Oh. And that's what I see that so much from their defense.

And that just when I watch them, it's like this feels like they just have really strong coaching points because there's that. And you see their linebackers just get excellent depth on like, play action throws where it's like all right all right all right right right they just clearly have somebody's voice in their head where it's like i got to get back now got to get back now got to get back now and it's really fun to watch and then the play that sticks out to me that's kind of similar to that in my mind is that bobby okariki play on the fourth down throw to williams where he just it plays it so so well and that's just a great play by him but i can also just see them being like all right

they're going to try you on this do not get sucked up do not and he's stuck with him made a really hard throw. I think it was a terrible play call, but I also think it was a great play by him. That's the benefit of we've seen it this past eight-ish years with the Seahawks only running cover three in Mann. They've changed it up a little bit now, but for a good two, three years there, they're running two coverages. And when you have players that can take advantage of that, and that's the same thing what the Bears used to do in the early 2000s is, hey, you know what we're going to be in. Same with the Bucks when they were rolling with Monty Kiffin down there. Hey, you know what we're going to be in. We know how you're going to attack us.

but because we know what our weaknesses are, we know how to shore it up or take advantage of that. Hey, we know you're going to pump the flat, but I'm going to soften into the whole, whole shot. Even in Rod, it's kind of,

oh, God, it's just so much fun watching smart players. Just take advantage of another smart player. On the drive, yeah, on the drive to the Packers. It was near the end of the game. Rogers hits one down,

down to shoot to MVS. And, you know, it's cover two. So it's a Tampa linebacker. He has to run with a receiver. because it was a ridiculous throw. It was an absolutely ridiculous throw.

You have to be so ballsy to make that throw. But he knows that's the thing. He was off balance. He like was leaning and somehow like got enough under it. It was ridiculous. And so in a player two later, again, the Colts were in cover two. A way to attack that is hitting digs.

And a defense that knows that you're trying to hit a dick will have a linebacker might sit, sit, sit, and then soften under the throw and bat it down. It's Darius Leonard. He knows where Rogers trying to go because he knows the routes underneath him. So you can see him starting to drift back. And so what Rogers does is throw a no look pass going, he looks at the underneath route and then throws the dig and throws a no look pass just real quick because he was playing with Leonard's eyes. But it's just so fun because it's like,

yeah, I know you. I know you're smart. So I'm going to make you move because I know you're smart. And it's just cool watching just players do that. It's like, yeah, again, it's the counter to the counter to the counter to the counter kind of thing. But it's fun when good players do that. And it was funny. two third downs where they went three and out at the beginning of the half, Green Bay. The third and six, the first one, they, it was probably cover three on the outside because the corner just ran straight down the field with NBS. Rogers tried to throw a back shoulder. They weren't on the same page.

That, aside from the fumble that lost them the game, just that blinking light of, God, they need another receiver. God, they need another receiver. Like, they can make it happen every once in a while. But with somebody that he has a similar feel with to Adams, that's a back shoulder throw every single time. And then the other third down, and this is why I think it's kind of fun to watch this Colts team because even though they are a zone team, that's what they like to do.

The only run a couple of things is the bread and butter of just the basis of their defense. But on that play, it's third and one. They had that funky front where Buckner's lineup is the head up nose. They had a six-man pressure and Leonard came behind it. When you're dealing with the backup center, just a way to play with it, Rogers had to get rid of it too quick on the slant to Adams, dirts it, punt. and Colts get the ball back. And those two three and outs were absolutely huge

because they just controlled that entire quarter. So, I mean, that's the nice thing about that defense is they do the stuff they do really well. But every once in a while, they're going to have one or two plays where there's throwing something funky at you. And today they dialed it up at the exact right time. Yeah. And then just offensively, they're just, it's the no-name team. I mean, I know Hilton's a nice player. And they, you know, they have Jonathan Taylor.

We love Moe Alley Cox. but, you know, Jack Doyle scores a touchdown. Another just good player. Pascal's makes plays. Michael Pittman looks great, especially, you know, catching or running with the ball. But they're just killing you with different guys. But then you get guys like Nahim Hines stepping up and just looking phenomenal running routes. And it's cool watching him.

He's their best player inside the 30-yard line. He is. Other teams are putting safeties on them. And like just like the Lions did a couple of weeks ago, it does not matter. He's just like, okay, forked out. That fourth and four pick play should have ended the game. And Alexander was covering him on that play. You have one of the best man corners in the league covering your running back on the play of the game.

And obviously he got some help with the pick from Burton. But still, I mean, that's still a huge play. Then the other one, they hit him on a high leverage play was third and four. And they eventually got a field go out of it. And he ran a slant at the marker. The corner, I was Raven Clark, I think is his name, 24, was playing like seven yards off. Peckers are not well coached on defense. I don't know if you know that at all.

I'm just sitting there watching it. I was like, why are you eight yards off a running back on third and four? Like, what are we doing here? He, running backs, I had a smart corner one time talked to me because he jumped a slant route in training camp that we ran with a running back. And I know this is going to sound so obvious,

but I was like, hey, how did you jump that so quick? Because you're playing like 10 yards off. And he goes, it's a runnerback. What are you going to run with a running back? A slant to go.

And then I was just like, Naheem Hines. He can do a couple more things, but I still wouldn't be playing eight yards off of him on third and four. But that's the difference between a player that's like a kind of low-coacher, like smart and aware, going, hey, it's a runback. He only going to go with this, not a guy bailing on third and four. But that also goes to show how impressive that Nahim Hines is, it's probably because Alexander is, I'm guessing, as a very smart player. And he's probably gone, well, he's only going to run a slant or go. And Naim Hines still won on it. So pretty good on his part. Can we discuss the Philip Rivers, absolutely. ridiculous shot put throw to T. Y. Hought, which was a huge throw in the game. Huge. Huge. It was like a third medium, right? And it got them down inside the 10. Yeah,

pressure was in his face. And I think he touched the ceiling on it. I think that thing. Because usually when he throws those, it's a swing pass he'll throw because he has to time it up because he's trying to get out early or he's throwing something deep and he's throwing like a corner. That corner. He throws the corner beautifully. It's my

favorite route that he throws. So great. Because it just it's just honestly like it tilts sideways so just like it handed to the guy as he catches it it sits down so nicely on it you can see ty when he after he caught it he like just stood up and it was just like he was pointing yeah pointed he was like that was good shit my favorite part about that throw is it's almost like an old man basketball game where you got the old man at the why who's all elbows that's some of these throws that rogers makes it's kind of the football version of that but he's been doing it since he was like 27 years old like that exact throw

And just he would always like get up on one foot and push it to Antonio Gates. And that's pretty much what he did there. So he's been doing it for a decade. So even if it's old man nonsense, he's been doing it before he was an old man. So he comes by it honestly, which I've always appreciated. It's like Sean Livingston when he saw him with the Warriors. Just like he had a built-in old man's game. It's so true.

Just surviving on nothing but savvy. Like that's exactly what Philip Rivers' game is at this point. And I honestly, I don't know how good this team is because like you said, the no name offense thing I think is real. I think the running game is really hit or miss. They managed to, they really managed to move the ball on a bad, objectively awful Packers run defense when they needed to today. Some really nice, I mean, Nelson, obviously the holding penalties, which that was just a nightmare end of a game. Oh my goodness. But he had a couple of plays in that second half, especially early when they were really trying to continue running the

ball when they were down where he's just digging out the one technique on the back side of runs and just clearing out holes. I mean, he can do that in a way other guys can't. I still don't think they found their rhythm, though, when it comes to running the ball. They had 11 carries for 25 yards in the first half with their running backs. I mean, this is a team with the talent they have a front. That just shouldn't happen. And I'm curious, I still have to go back and watch it a little bit more. It just feels like it's coming from a couple different directions why they're struggling. but I think the defense is really, really good. And I think that they're going to be in all of these games

and it just comes down to one or two scattered plays and I think Rivers can still do that. He's still going to make enough big throws in big moments because he's still a pretty damn good quarterback when it comes down to it. Speaking of damn good quarterbacks, another candidate for who won the week here, Deshawn Watson, man.

We don't have to spend a long time on this. They're not a good team. They're four and six today after being the Patriots, 27 to 20. I know the Patriots defense is bad. They're dead last in DVOA, which if you need, if anyone needs another reminder

that building around defense is a dicey proposition. The fact that the Patriots went from the best defense in the league to the worst defense in the league in one season is all you need to know about that. But even if you take that stuff into account, he was the best quarterback in the league today by a lot. I mean, you look at some of the numbers. He averaged 0.43 EPA per play today.

He was, I think he had 10 more EPA than any other quarterback in the NFL. I think Justin Herbert was number two. On their second drive, I tweeted this, he had three throws in the span of like six plays that were just like knock you on your ass good. The one up Brandon Cook, the one to Brandon Cook's up the seam, just like picture perfect. The crossing route to Aiken's, he pretty much put it in his hands. And the one to cover the touchdown, it doesn't look that great from the broadcast view, but if you look at the replay from behind, the placement on it is crazy. This dude is one of the best quarterbacks in the league,

like one of the best five or six quarterbacks in the entire league. And I said this today. I think today is the most depressed I've ever been about the Bears passing on Deshaun Watson. And the timing on that seems strange, right? Yeah. I mean, we're three and a half years into it or whatever. But you can make the argument

and think some people have made the argument. Well, if the Bears drafted to Sean Watson, they would have wasted him anyway. Okay. There's some merit to that, but I don't think a lot. But even if that's true, even if this version of the Bears' coaching staff had wasted Deshaun Watson, I assume they still would have extended him anyway and he wouldn't be this guy, but he'd still be some version of Deshaun Watson.

I think that, I mean, the Texans are already starting over. They've already hit the reset button. I think the Bears probably should when you look at everything that's going on there. So if these two teams are starting over next spring anyway, one of them has Deshawn Watson and one of them doesn't. They traded DeAndre Hopkins. They're an absolute mess. It's an offense in a system that does very little to help its quarterback.

You saw that all day today. It's just like, all right, Deshawn, you go figure it out, and he does. And even if they're down a first and second round pick, even if they have some of these awful contracts on their books next season, I still have hope that he can lift them out of this. He is that good. In the end, you are going to have. that guy as just the nucleus of what you're moving forward with as a franchise and he's good

enough for that to be enough and passing on that guy and deciding to go in a different direction and as you move from staff to staff and you move from regime to regime era to era as a franchise having that guy to carry you through it is the most important part i think that the falcons and matt ryan are a good example of that where i mean i think that sean is a better quarterback than Matt Ryan, but just having that guy at the core of it, you can change coaching staffs and your offense is always going to be relevant because you have that guy at the center of it. And he is that guy. He is an unbelievable player.

And I think today's one of the better games I've seen him playing a long time. He's going to raise the tides for all the other ships. Like that's what a guy like that does. And like it's not just like he's always a good starter. It's like he's a star. You said top four to six. I mean, he's like top three or four. I mean, at this point, I mean, he's just.

He's always been so aggressive, which has just been so much fun with him and just like he's just an explosive play waiting to happen. Just either a downfield, an incredible throw, a scramble, either a scramble where he throws it or a scramble where he's running with the ball. He's dynamite in the red zone. But that throw to Atkins is like a perfect example of the improvement he's made. It's that his footwork in that. He had a nice pocket in it, but it's so calm. No pressure today whatsoever. He got hit twice.

Oh, my God, none. Yeah, and it seemed like it. And but there's none of that. And he's done this more and more throughout the weeks is that he doesn't do the extended drops. The big issue with him a lot of times was he was taking like as opposed to a five or seven step drop. And I get it in the gun, it's a three or five step drop. It would become almost like a nine or sometimes like an 11 step drop because you just keep dropping back because his eyes were always downfield. And nothing was telling him, hey, I got to step up.

And now you see his footwork is so consistently calm. He's making these throws that are just, I mean, one percent are throws. And they're just beautiful. He's just so mentally calm. I think you can see the game. He's obviously a smart guy. But you can see the game really slowing down for him on another level. Like he's doing the quarterback things better.

He's not just always, I have to throw a touchdown on the next play. He's like, okay, I can make a living with a six yard gain here. And, you know, he still looks a little funky how he does things, how he contorts his body. But it's because he's so strong. His core is so strong and he's so flexible. He's just, he's always going to just look funky. But he's incredible. He really is.

You know, stylistically, he actually reminds me of. And I think he's a better player than this guy. But actually a little bit of Dante Colpepper a little bit. And not in the sense of Dante was so much bigger and would run through a guy. And Deshaun will maybe more bounce off a guy and keep the play alive and make another throw. But as far as that they are accurate, they're athletic to scramble anywhere. Not only on third down, but in the red zone actually score and you can design any type of run play for him. But also that they always are trying to attack downfield.

and anytime lightning strike can happen with them. It can just be a little scamper play where they're just launching downfield because they have the ability to do so. Deshawn's, I think, is a better player than Dante, even Dante's one year when he was the MVP candidate. DeShon's a better version of that, but it is stylistically. That is something that is kind of interesting. And even some of the turnovers, Dante was more of a fumbler than an interception guy,

but even some of the fumble stuff. But it's interesting. It's funny watching it because any time a bomb can happen, anytime a scramble can happen, or any time they were running over a guy. Like Deshawn had a scramble on the red zone a day where he just, he didn't care. He just, I thought he was actually going to go down or go out of balance and he just planned his foot.

Right through. Run through. Right through the guy. I was like, oh, no, don't do it, Deshaun. I know. But it's still fun when it happens. It's fun, but scary. I think the number, so I said four to six or five, five to six just because I was trying

to be cautious a little bit. Yeah. And I think that this year, there's some guys that are playing really well. But he's like seventh in EPA per play. He's, I mean, all of the numbers are up there. I think he's averaging 8.5 yards per attempt for just a bad team. It's just going to waste. But over the next five years,

Mahomes is the only guy you'd rather have than him. Yeah. Wilson's 31, so that would be 32 to 36 for Wilson. I think I'd rather have Watson. Yeah, I think so too. And then you get into discussion. Then it's DAC and the next group down, you know, but it's, I think, I think, DeShon's.

Kyler. Yeah, yeah, Kyler, but, you know, but it's, I definitely rather have Watson than Kyle. for the next five years. I would too. I would too. But it's, yeah, he's slodding into easy number two. And it's kind of funny because if it was any other era, he would be the guy.

I know. I know. Yeah. Let's not, let's not talk about those two guys being the guys. He's going to get Mario Lamoid. That's what's going to happen. Let's not talk anymore about those two guys being the guys because then I'll just get sad again. All right.

One more candidate for who won the week here. The Tennessee Titans, man. We talked about the AFC playoff picture earlier. this allows them to keep pace and it looked like they were dead in the water. I mean, after that long Andrew's touchdown, I thought this one was probably over. They staged an

incredible comeback. They ended up winning this game 30 to 24. And I think my favorite part about watching that second half from them is that everything they did offensively was a perfect distillation of their identity on offense. Just lead zone.

We're lining up with a fullback, running the ball straight downhill at you. That's a majority of the damage that Henry did in the second half around those sorts of plays. They hit this exact same play for big gains twice. It was they were in 12 personnel with both tight ends to the right side and they had Davis also on that side. So it trips to that side where Davis was condensed. And it was a play action throw and he ran on this like a corner.

And they caught Peters with his eyes in the backfield twice. One was for a 50 yard gain that really jump started their offense. And another one was for like a 22 yard gain. I think it was exact same play later in the half. So they hit that twice. So play action throws out of big personnel. Get the ball in number 11's hands and let him go to fucking work. Oh my God.

He's a monster. I love that their quick game is just throw a slant or a hitch to that guy and just let him run over people. It's amazing. It's unbelievable. And then you had one or two. Tannenhill had a really nice completion of FERC sur on a third and 10, I think. Who's coming along too? Ferkshire is playing great.

He's nice. for them in those moments. I think they like him and like third down because he's, he wins quickly in a way that other guys on that team don't. And I think they need that. John who takes a minute to, he's more of a straight line guy. He's more explosive.

Yes. He's not going to break anyone off. Yeah. And even Brown isn't that type of receiver. And I think that they've really used him in those moments. And then you have one scramble. I think there was one like second and seven where they had him on the boot and he gained nine yards.

And those are just like all of the elements of that offense when it's rolling. that you want to see. And I think all of them started to pile up in that half. Yeah. And those outbreakers that you were talking about, the two they hit the Davis. Corey Davis is a really nice number two receiver, by the way.

I know he was a top 10 pick. I mean, he's the top five pick. So, you know, yeah, you're hoping. But, I mean,

he's really coming into his own. It just, I mean, he's tough and athletic. Like, he blocks his ass off too, which is like, he doesn't play like a top five pick.

You know, he plays more like the second rounder. And AJ Brown plays more like the top five pick. Like, that's if you were to say how their styles were. But those outbreakers were just, Roma actually brought it up too was they're playing off, you know,

all their post-dig combinations that they run over and over and over. Marcus Peters and the Ravens DBs are very aggressive. And they like to, they know tendencies. They know quarterbacks. They like to jump. So what they do? They ran an outbreaker instead of a dick.

And it caught Peters. Peter, I mean, the first one they ran, Peters was like eight yards away because he got burned so bad. Yeah, he had no shot. Yeah,

no shot. Because he thought he was going to get a, a cheap one on that dig. He was like, this is the first PA. I am picking this off. Oh my God. And then also it's an out route for 20 yard gain.

But that just shows. They know what they are. They always know what they are, which is it's pretty, pretty great to see. I thought in the first couple quarters, I was like, ooh, you know,

Ravens pass game actually looks a little better. It looks like it's going to be a long day. You know, I'm a little, this doesn't look great for the Titans. So I thought that plus, it just kind of, so I think these were two offenses that had,

we've seen them be great. and they've struggled recently. And I thought it was watching that first half, it felt like, okay, Ravens are getting out of it. They've dug themselves out of this hole. Maybe they found a little bit of life. And the Titans, it felt like this might be over.

Tannahill is 8 of 14 for 44 yards in a pick with 934 left in the third quarter. And it was ugly. So I'm sitting there thinking, the regression monster is here, and it has eaten Ryan Tanahill. And instead, it goes the exact other way. where the Ravens, the Ravens had chances in this game.

I mean, the throw to Andrews that was just off his fingertips on that third down, he makes that throw, it's a different situation. The Juvenate interception was just weird. Like it was first in 10. He's throwing a jump ball to a 5-11 guy. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't get that. Weird timing for it, too, to like try that type of play too.

Yeah, just. But even if you're sitting there thinking, all right, a couple scattered plays from the Ravens here and maybe they're right, it still feels hard. When they're throwing the ball, it still feels hard. And when I'm watching the Titans in the second half of that game, it didn't feel hard. It felt like they had answers in the way the Ravens haven't in their passing game. And that was nice to see because when this offense was rolling in Tennessee, I love watching them play. Because I love how all the pieces fit together, like we said.

Those elements that we talk about lining up in that second half, I love when they line up. It's a fun offense to watch. and to see them really kind of find their stride against a very good Ravens defense. I love watching it. It's funny. It's like you'd watch a Titans offense if it's just a normal person watches it. They'll be like, oh, that's kind of boring. There's fullbacks.

There's tight ends in it. There's condensed splits. You know, not that like a normal person would talk condensed splits, but it's kind of on those splits. Oh my God. Look at that nasty split. What down is it? You know, like no, but they are like, you know, watch it.

But what's actually fun with that, it's almost like it's not the same offense, but kind of like the old Nebraska teams. But in their passing game, when they run the I formation option ball, it was all explosive plays. It's the option gashing you for 30 yard gains or play action or whatever they would do off of it. I formation two man pass concepts. It's a, you know, Freyer and all these guys down the field that would just create these huge plays. And it's kind of that version of that. It's actually really exciting to watch because the way. But at first is boring with the Henry runs.

And it's become a cliche now with the body blow stuff. But it really in the second half, we'll get to it. You see it happening. Like that walkoff touchdown that Henry had, there's about four Ravens defenders that were okay with that game ending. They were like, you can see him kind of just going, yeah. Oh, no, sorry. Can tackle him. Sorry.

Out of my reach. And it's, I think it's because that stuff wears on. That's hard to tackle a guy over and over that many times head on. All right, it's time for would you rather. All right. I'm excited about this one because I think it could go either way, and I'm sure we're bound to upset some people with this. So let me set the stage here for you.

You're building a run-first offense. You know you have to protect your quarterback. This is your best chance to win, similar to kind of what the Browns are doing right now. If you were trying to pick a back to be the centerpiece of that sort of approach, Would you rather have Nick Chubb or Derek Henry? I'd go with Nick Chubb. And why is because I like him as just an all-round scheme-proof running back. I think with a guy like Derek Henry, you have to truly build the whole offense around him.

You get more out of him, the more you put into him, if that makes sense. And I think a guy like Chubb is no matter what you are putting around him or what scheme you want to run, what your old I'm in are best at, what your quarterback's best at, he's going to be fine. This dude can run any type of run play because he just has the size for it, the athleticism for it, and also just vision and just that kind of classic running back of vision and know-how. Like he knows, understands angles and how his guys are being blocked. Today he had a gorgeous 54-yard run.

He plants, it's a weak side zone. He plants his foot, gets north. He sees the linebacker getting sealed. And right as it gets sealed, he plants his foot, gets north. And then he has a. And so right there, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, should be like a six, seven yard gain. And the D-N is coming down the line.

And he, like, gives him a Hadoogan and just goes, what? And then he crushed his windpipe. I couldn't breathe after watching that play. It looked like a Hadoogan. Like, he just was, da-da. The guy went down. And then, like, that's like just encompasses. And then he scampered down for 54-yard gain.

And I think he broke another tackle. And he kept his feet. And I think he matriculated out of balance. But that was like the perfect play to sum up, Chub. It's just the vision, the power. hour, the explosiveness, the home run speed, and just the finish. Because, you know, even guys talk about them. Both of these guys are supposed to be great teammates as well.

So you don't even have to worry about that kind of stuff. But it's, I think Chubb just has that all around us that I like. I like Derek Henry. And I think what the Titans did, the Titans are using them perfectly. That's how I think you have to use Derek Henry. You have to use him as the featured back. He's not a role player. He is all or nothing type of guy.

I think Chub, if you're using them for 12 touches or 25 touches, 30 touches, you're going to get a lot out of them, no matter what you do. And he's pretty good in the past game with the ball in his hands. Protection, he's okay. But, you know, and Henry catches the ball like a beach ball. So, but he can still do some stuff with a ball in his hands once he gets downhill. But, yeah, Chubbs my answer. I just, I'm a big fan of him.

He's one of the best backs in the game, if not, if not the best back. So let me play devil's advocate. So if you're looking at what Derek Henry gives you, I was looking up some of the numbers today. It's absolutely ridiculous what he's. does late in the game. In the fourth quarter and overtime, he's averaging 7.1 yards per carry. That's insane. And that's what he does. He's the closer. And even coming back, that's the thing, too. It's not like those are like leads are protecting. There are games that are coming back to. That's what makes that even more ridiculous. He's the closer. And that's exactly what he does. He's going to come in.

He is going to shut the door on teams. And I tend to agree with you. You have to give him a lot of carries. The damage is done slowly. When he does hit home runs, he has to get up to warp speed. It's one of those things where he just builds speed over time because he's so huge. And I think that a lot of the factors I look at, I think yards after contact per attempt and breaking tackles is a sustainable skill.

It carries over from season to season. I think that's not a new idea. These two guys every single year are right at the top. Chubb leads the league this year. It's 4.41 yards after contact per attempt per PFF, which is absolutely ridiculous. Yeah. But those two guys are like,

and neck every single year. It's like a golfer. Like, it's like, it's like a competition where like guys switch off all the time. It's like, who's the best? Who's the best? It changes every single single. It's exactly, like tennis players.

It changes every single moment. And those two guys are the kings when it comes to that stat. Look at some other numbers. Chubb leads the league in next gen stats, rushing yards over expectation per run. And A and total, even though he's only played in six games. He is just getting, that's ridiculous. He's getting so much more than. what is blocked.

He's facing eight-man boxes at the fifth highest rate in the league, according to next-gen stats. So a lot of the ways that teams approach these two guys are similar. And I think a lot of the ways they get yard is similar. They break tackles. They get more than what's there. The reason that I would rather have Chubb is the acceleration. I think that while Henry takes a lot of time to get up to top speed, Chub gets to top speed instantly.

The way that he can move laterally and then get vertical, I just think is difficult. I just think is different than the way that Henry moves. You talked about the 54-yard run today. My favorite run that he had was actually an 11-yard run in the third quarter where he's going right, essentially sees a guy in the hole, jump cuts straight to his left, puts his foot in the ground, and gets vertical for 11 yards. It should be a two-yard gain.

And he probably doesn't even get any yards after contact there because no one actually touched him. That sort of ability to stop start and get going again. That's what sticks out to me. So I think that he gives you, the power and tackle-breaking ability that Henry does, like I said, they're neck and neck in those metrics every single year. But the home run ability comes faster.

I know that Henry hits them. But again, I just think Chubb is more dangerous and more apt to hit those home runs consistently than Derek Henry is. I actually played this game with an NFL head coach recently, but it was Chubb or Dalvin Cook. And he picked Chubb. And it was just that, all that, just the overall package of traits plus just the strength, everything.

I think he's the best pure runner in the league, and I think that we're seeing that show up. He's going to have these one or two runs every single game where he just breaks your back. Henry has the same sort of ability late in games, but I just think that Chub is a more dynamic runner with the ball in his hands, and he can hit those home runs more consistently. It's like Chub can hit that almost like a quarterback hitting that 10 to 20 yard area more because he accelerates a little quicker where Henry might get tripped up. How many times do you see Henry getting tripped up? And you're like, why is this big guy getting tripped up?

It's because he's starting to pick up his legs to really start striding out. And he can't get there and it's a six-yard gain. And Chubb turns out to a 14-yard gain just because he can accelerate just that much quicker. At 230 pounds, it's like he's a big boy. The way the guy moves is crazy. I mean, I think that outside of Sequin, he's probably the most physically gifted guy that plays running back in the NFL. And he's been a better runner than Seekwon since he came into the league. He gets more.

The meat is. always off the bone with Nick Chubb. He's going to get every single scrap on every single carrier. And I think that's what I want in a guy running the ball. He is my favorite runner and he's the guy that I would take. All right. It's time for Vince to ask the question here.

We don't have to spend a lot of time on this. We talked about them a lot last week. I think this is a slightly different conversation. Is Carson Wentz just done? Do you think he's just cooked? Like, I'm seriously asking you. Is there something irreparably broken about, the way he is playing the position right now.

I haven't seen just like a guy that's done it before have just a whole season like this. Like, you know, we've seen him play good football. We've seen him be an MVP candidate. And it's his confidence has to be at an all-time low. And that's where you have to decide. Is that a- You can see the gears turning. Every single play, you can see the gears turning.

Every play. No play looks easy for them. Every single play just looks so hard. Like the last interception, like he just floats the ball over there. He's just wishing the guy is open. And it's just that that shows a guy doesn't trust the concept that's happening and probably doesn't trust the personality that he's throwing to. You know, no one's getting open. There's guys that are running.

I'm not trying to, I know we're talking about Wentz, but I just, this is part of it is there's guys running like two yards away from each other on routes. And it's not just happening once or twice. It's happening several times a game. And Wence plays this style of football that or as a passer is that he's going to let his guys make a play for better for worse. He is a hell or high water. He's getting this ball off. There's no there's no wasted plays with him. He is going to try to make a play happen every play.

And I think that's something they've tried to wean out of them for just to keep them healthy. And when you have guys that aren't winning for you, those plays look really freaking ugly. When you're making these 50, 50 balls that's like rather than hitting 50 50 of them, they're winning like, one out 10 and it looks ugly that makes an offense look just shit and they telegraph everything to do with their formations like they're like if we're in this formation we run this play and it's like just so do you see on the pick six where they didn't have any route to that side of the field and so we're just had nothing holding him there I don't think it was a call blitz but he was sitting there richard rogers was the only one there so he's like fine if he's not going to go out and

fuck it I'll come and he was he was covering him and he had it ruins the entire play I'm So, suddenly they're like, shouldn't you have something that holds him there on the back side? And you pointed out their spacing is terrible. It just feels like the overall structure of the offense isn't helping him out. But he's also not helping himself out. You sent this note along to me. Pro Football Reference came out and said there are two quarterbacks in their entire database that have a game with two picks, five sacks, a fumble, a pick six, and a safety.

Jay Fiedler in 2003 and Carson Wentz today. That's brutal, man. That's a list. Some of that's not his fault. So you think, let's, the five sacks, for example. Sacks are a quarterback stat, in my opinion. They're not always a quarterback stat. But if you look at the sacks he's taking in this game, they're bad sacks.

There was one play. It was the third and three, I want to say, that Vernon eventually got home. And Jason Peters is setting him for a third and three play. It's a quick set. He expects the ball to be gone. And when the ball's not gone, it's not his fault that he's getting walked back into his quarterback. The safety is similar situation.

You can tell the way they're setting the ball is supposed to be out of his hands. When it's not out of his hands, the line isn't set up to hold up for that long. He's just holding onto the ball. And I understand that guys aren't open and that's part of the issue, but you still can't be taking these sacks on quick game concepts where the ball is supposed to be out of your hands. As a quarterback, you're supposed to understand everything.

Everything ties in together. The protection ties into the dropback, which ties into the routes. Everything is supposed to be all encompassing. And that's what's so disappointing. He's too many years, too many starts with coaches he's been with. And they have a couple new guys in there that he is not understanding, hey, it's quick game. It's either throw that first read or check down or freaking scramble and make something happen.

Because double clutching the ball there, guys are cutting. Olin are cutting. Like you said, they're short setting. They are not expecting there to be a reset on display. But it just shows what it just jumbled mess they are. When the things are going well with them, when they're playing with confidence, and he's making these 50-50 throws and they're actually getting completed. It looks beautiful.

But now that they're not, it just looks so ugly. And all these play, they don't have an offense that raises their bar. They don't have a run game that's consistent. They don't have a passing attack that can consistently generate yards to have these high variance crazy Wentz plays. You know, to add these adlet plays. They just don't have anything to lift them up and make it look competent. And so it just looks like a total convoluted mess. It's no accident to me that Nelson Anglor leads this offense where he's at public enemy number one in Philadelphia.

It goes to the Raiders and now looks like an actual viable NFL player. I think that's the difference in the way that these offenses set their players up to fail and succeed. Wentz has taken 40 sacks this year. That leads the NFL. He's lost 10 more EPA on sacks than any other player in the week. He's at 67, Burroughs at 57. he's killing this offense and this offense is not helping him at all. I just feel like it's a problem that's compounding because it's happening in every single

area and it's like whackamol. It's like when you solve one, one other one's going to pop up and then you hit that one. Another one pops up. There's just no way for them to address it all at the same time because every single time it feels like they have an answer to one thing, another thing becomes a problem. I don't think they know what their end game is. I think when they went into training camp or and they were trying to put this together,

it looks like they just don't have that identity. When they go, shit's hitting the fan. Okay, when the Titans, go down, what do they start doing? Hey,

we're getting right back to our run game and we're getting back to our play action stuff. Okay, we know what we are. You can see all the good offenses do it. And with them, and it would not even just be an average offense. There's just like every week it looks,

it looks like a different, like, shit show. It's like, okay, this week is a whole bunch of RPO's and slants that were just getting batted down. The week before, it might have been dropped back

and they couldn't complete any of these seam balls that they're trying to throw. It's just like every week they're throwing different stuff against the wall and none of it's sticking. And yeah, it's just, that's kind of the crazy with the EPA lost. I actually didn't know that the fact that anyone's above Burrow was pretty ridiculous.

It's not even close or below. It's really bad. So let's move on and let's get to Joe Burrow. I mean, this is not, first of all, I don't want the tone of the segment normally takes to apply to Joe Burrow here. Joe Burrow did nothing wrong. This is a bummer.

So Joe Burrow tears his ACL. He's obviously out for the year. Hopefully he'll be back by next season. Hopefully there are no complications. We've seen guys come back from ACLs before. It's really disappointing just because he was so fun to watch as a rookie. And I know that people think we hate Joe Burrow and just not true at all. Some of the stuff he was doing, I went back and watched a lot of it last week.

And the chemistry he had with Tyler Boyd on some of those throws over the middle of the field, just the timing and the anticipation. He had to throw down the left sideline to AJ Green today that was just gorgeous. Just getting the ball out of his hands. Watching him just play the game with his brain was so fun and so unique for a rookie. Just had an ability to handle himself and handle every single piece and how it all fit together in the way you don't normally see with the first year quarterback. And now that gets taken away.

I feel terrible for him. I feel terrible for Bengals fans who have been clamoring for this sort of guy for so long. now you have him and then you just get him the rug yanked out from under you and hopefully he comes back next season and they can pick up right where they left off but it's still a really deflating moment for a team that had so much going for it at this point in the season it's been great seeing burrow just be what we all thought he would be in the sense that he's this super smart super tough accurate like guy that can throw on the move athletic just this guy that like yeah maybe his bar isn't as high as other guys that even got drafted in this class.

But you could see what he is already. He's a fully fleshed quarterback as a rookie. And it's like, oh, okay, so we're going to see this for the next 12, 14 years is this guy that's just a good, solid competitor. I mean, he took that shot before he got hurt. It sucks that he got hurt. It really does because he was always going to give them a chance. It would be fun to see the Bengals try and put pieces around them.

They have a couple nice weapons, but I mean, as far as just the whole team around them and try and build around him, it would been fun to see. see him with or we might see it now down the road but it's going to be fun seeing that is with what gets put around him because he is going to be just a nice solid guy for him just sucks to see him out of the rookie I just want to see more reps from him like you said he's always just so in control like he's a guy he's Joe cool like he just nothing phases him every time there's pressure or something it's not like there's the head is not spinning you can see that with a lot of young quarterbacks you see the the face mask moving side to side and that sometimes it's fine but

Sometimes that means, oh, this guy has no idea where he's supposed to be looking. So he's just hoping somebody comes open. A pressure will come in and Joe's eyes will just slowly transition outwards because he knows, oh, I'm pressured. This is where I should go with the ball now. That's unbelievable for a rookie. Like, we're being blessed with a lot of young quarterbacks right now and just seeing these cerebral guys as a rookie or second year guys. Pretty ridiculous.

Just sucks. He got hurt. I really like Joe Burrow. I want to see him succeed. I'm excited to watch his career continue. and I sucks for Bengals fans, but hopefully they can make something with this pick and they just can keep building up around pieces around Joe. I don't want to put this guy in a bad spot.

I don't want to say it's his fault, but you watch what happened on that play. The left guard gets just walked back into him, Jonathan Allen, with the bull rush. They need to improve their offensive line. I mean, it's not a secret. I think that they're set at left tackle and center. They gave Trey Hopkins that extension. They like him. I think that you can see a difference in some of their protection when Trey Hopkins is in the game versus when he's

wasn't when Billy Price was in there. They were not on the same page in the way that they had been with Hopkins. But talent-wise, there's still deficiencies. They needed upgrade at that left guard spot. They need an upgrade at right tackle. They're going to have a top five pick, most likely. Where do they go with that? If it goes quarterback one, two, three,

can you pick that guy from Oregon and stick him at right tackle? I know it's, I still think right tackles and left tackles are mostly interchangeable. You need a better tackle. And you just need better starters. That's all it is. Just better starters. Five, figure out where the points. And this is a team that spent a ton of money in free agency last year.

I don't know if we're going to have the same sort of spending spree, but teams are going to be looking to shed salary this off season. They're going to have cap space. There are guards out there. There are Joe Thunies and Brandon Shurfs. If you want to have that be the area where you put some money into this team, and I assume some veterans are going to get cut because teams are going to be trying to shed some money. You're going to be in a position to pick.

some of those guys up. I don't think you can go into next year without having two significant upgrades on that line. If you do have those upgrades, let's look at the receiving core. You get mixing back, you have Boyd, you have Higgins. That's a nice start. Yes. Where do you go with that third spot? Is it somebody like Josh Reynolds, who's a free agent and knows this system? Do you want to spend a little bit more money? The third receiver spot and those two guys in the offensive line, we'll see what they do with tight end. I don't think Drew Sample is the guy. So, and I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. know Azama's hurt. But I still think that there are ways and their resources that this team is going to have to build around him.

I think the future is extremely bright. This is a tough moment. It's a low moment, I'm sure, for Bengals fans who've been enjoying themselves this season in the way they haven't been able to in recent years. But I still feel like keep one eye on the horizon here. They're going to be better days ahead. He is going to be a really good player for a long time. I'm bummed. We won't get to watch him for the rest of this season.

But I know I'm excited to watch him next season. All right. that is all we got. It was week 11. I'm convincing you right now. This was week 11. It's not week 12. So I'll see you for week 12.

You will sue me for week 12. It's a holiday week, but we will be back on our normal schedule. We're going to be coming to you the same way we would be any other week. I'll be back on Wednesday. Really looking forward to the Wednesday show. Speaking of the conversation we just had about Pentee Sewell and guys like that, Dane Bruegler is going to be joining us on Wednesday to do all things draft. I know nothing outside of the top five.

guys because like an NFL head coach, I don't start caring about the draft until like February 28th. So I'm going to learn a lot. You watch the college football playoffs. You're like, oh, he seems like a fun player. That's exactly. But honestly, that's I, you talk to head coaches, they don't know shit about these guys. Nothing. People come up to them in those podium, I'm probably going to get into this with Dane, but at those podium sessions at the combine, people are asking about specific players and they're like, yeah, he seems good. They have no idea. They've read two sentences that they've been put in front of them on the guy. And if they maybe read it,

like that's the only guys that they actually know about if they got bored enough to read. That's why I don't feel bad for not starting my draft prep until like March 1st because I'm not alone in that. So we're going to get into that. There's so many quarterbacks. I think there's tons of stuff to dig into. So we're doing that.

Lindsay will be here on Thursday. So Thanksgiving or not, we will be coming to you guys the same way we are. Please rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast platform. I would really appreciate it. It would mean a lot to me. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show.

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