The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Teams on the cusp & how they can win a title with Lindsay Jones & Cowboys camp check-in with Jon Machota

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

What do teams on the cusp of a Super Bowl title like the Browns, Bills, Packers, Ravens, Seahawks and more need to do get over the hump? Robert and Lindsay Jones discuss the changes that have been made, or need to be made, with those teams headed into 2021. Then Robert catches up with The Athletic's Cowboys beat writer Jon Machota to talk all things Dak Prescott, Jerry Jones, CeeDee Lamb and America's Team. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Our Cowboys writer at The Athletics is going to be joining us a little bit later. Chat all things, Cowboys after my visit there last week. Before we do that, though, I'm very excited to welcome my good friend, Lindsay Jones. Lindsay, how you doing?

I am great, I think. It's a big day. It's a big day. I just dropped my daughter off at kindergarten for her first. first day of kindergarten a couple hours ago, so I'm still a little. It's an emotionally fragile time. Yeah, I mean, it was a big day. It all happened really quickly. Basically, they just like, okay, kindergartners, let's go. And they took them on into the room and the parents all kind

of looked at each other. And we were like, oh, okay, I guess they're gone. There it is. I like, I put her mask on her face and sent her into the classroom. And there she goes, off into her new life. I honestly can't imagine because I remember when you, were pregnant with Lena. Oh, yeah. I remember, I just, I mean, it seems like not that long ago. And then the video you posted this weekend of her running with you in that race was like, that she should not be old enough to run anywhere.

Like I'm not ready for it. I can't imagine how you feel. Oh, I mean, it's been a big summer because, yeah, she would have been getting ready for kindergarten. She ran a half mile race on Saturday night. She ran her half mile in 525, cried the entire second lap, but just kept going. So I think that shows a lot of like toughness. and grit.

Absolutely. Yeah, so we're ready. And then I'm going to take her to her first NFL game in a couple of weeks, which is going to be really fun. It's going to be a preseason game in Denver. She's not going to care that it's like John Wolford versus Brett Rippin or whoever the Rams like four string quarterback in the fourth quarter. So yeah, it's been a really big summer.

I'm really excited though to take her to her first NFL game. So we'll report back after that happens. So we're going to talk about a little bit of preseason stuff on this show. We're also going to talk about the contenders in the NFL because I think a lot of the time we just don't talk about the good teams at this time of year because we talk about what's new or what's different or what's intriguing. And we just gloss over all of the teams that were a game or two away from winning the Super Bowl. So I want to talk about those teams. And I want to talk about the recipe those teams could follow to win the Super Bowl this year. We're going to talk about teams with a Vegas over under of at least 10 wins.

And we're not going to do the Bucks and the Chiefs because we know what a. Super Bowl for them looks like. It's very fresh in our minds. So the other ones are teams like Buffalo, teams like Green Bay. They were right on the cusp last year. So that's what we're going to talk about a little bit later. Before that, though, let's talk about the preseason because some notable stuff happened this weekend. And I feel like we should definitely hit it before we get into that. Did anything interesting happen in Chicago? Listen, it was fine. People keep asking me about it. Like, there's this earth-shattering event. The rookie quarterbacks, I think, all in all, played fine.

They showed you what you want to see. I mean, these are guys in their first preseason game playing against the twos, playing with the twos. I think Zach Wilson probably had the best showing of all of them. He had a couple really nice throws. There's a deep out. He hit to Corey Davis. I was like, okay, that looks pretty damn good.

Then he had another nice third down completion to Corey Davis. Obviously, the play action boot touchdown from Trey Lance is really splashy. It's an 80-yard touchdown. It's like, okay, that's exactly why they want this guy to be able to have that sort of arm town in the offense. Lawrence had a couple make you sit up in your chair throws. And then Justin Fields looked like the guy I thought he would look like. He was even more mobile and I think willing to get outside the pocket than I suspected

that he would. And he had really good placement on some throws down the field. He had a back shoulder fade on the touchdown drive where he eventually scrambled for the touchdown. He ran the two-minute drill very well. The thing that jumped out to me most is just how calm he looked. I mean, just really definitely moving outside the pocket. it, never in a hurry. The way he ran the two-minute trail at the end of the half, I thought was

really impressive. So I think all of those guys showed you what you want to see. But that's as far as I'm willing to take it in two quarters into one preseason. Well, I texted you and our friend Nate Tice about this the other day because LeBron James went tweeting about Justin Fields. So the internet was very, very excited. But I think that, you know, we have to caution ourselves. And I think everybody should caution yourself to not draw too big of overreactions after one preseason game. And you're right that we saw good stuff out of all of those guys. I don't think for any of them, the stage looked too big. You know, there's some, like, Trey Lance has barely played football in two years. I mean, he had one game last season. You know, Zach Wilson hasn't, didn't play a ton of college

football as a starting quarterback. So we kind of just wanted to see like what these guys look like, you know, Trevor Lawrence, they're still kind of going through this charade of is there a quarterback that competition in Jacksonville, Trevor Lawrence should shut that door pretty quickly by saying that he's the guy. He's making all the NFL throws. This is not a knock on Gardner Minchu. I mean, this is a very pro-Minchu podcast, right? But like, look, the guy's going to start. Just give him the reps. He needs the reps. Trevor Lawrence is your guy. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, I was encouraged by by what I saw out of those guys. But look, it's not going to be a perfect preseason. We're going to see more of these guys as the weeks go on. And they're going to have

rough stretches. They're going to have some drives where they make mistakes. And we shouldn't draw broad overreactions to those when those happen to because they're probably going to throw some picks in the interceptions. They're going to take some sacks. But you just want to see. Which they did. Lance and Lawrence both took several. I mean, those guys were eating sacks in those games. And that's okay. That's not an indictment on what those guys look like on August 15th of their rookie seasons. Yeah, we just want to see progress. We want to see the same mistakes not being made over and over again. And, you know, we're also trying to learn a lot about in a lot of these places, what is your offensive line going to look like?

I mean, that's a huge issue that's going on right now in Chicago and something that the bears are going to have to figure out as they're figuring out who their starting quarterback is going to be. It's also who's your left tackle going to be? How healthy are you? I mean, they're just bringing in Jason Peters. So there's a lot of questions with a lot of these teams. And that's why that these teams are in position to draft quarterbacks within the top

10. So, yeah, was there any other rookie quarterback or any of the other notable quarterback situations that really jumped out at you this weekend? Well, I want to talk one more thing about Justin Fields. Sure. Peter King talked to Matt Nagy for Football Morning in America today, and Matt Nagy said something that I appreciate it. He said that we're going to bring Justin Fields along at the pace

that's right for Justin Fields, not for Matt Nagy. This is not about me saving my job. And that sounds well and good while everyone is zero zero. When you're one and three, maybe that changes a little bit. But I have kind of changed my tune about this when it comes to how quickly Justin Fields should play. Because if we're looking at an offensive line without Tevin Jenkins, with a 39-year-old Jason Peters,

Germina Fetty is still on the Pupp list. I mean, this is not good. This is concerning the guys that he might have in front of him. If they got to throw Andy Dalton out there for the first eight games of the season, whatever it is as they figure that out, I'm open to that because the only thing that matters is whether or not Justin Fields succeeds. That's it.

It's the only thing that matters for the franchise. What they paid for him, the lack of resources they have going forward because of it, and even trading up to get Tevin Jenkins, which now don't get me started on that. But that's all that matters. And if that means he doesn't play for the first half of this year because they're not comfortable with the protection and some of the help that he has, I am okay with that. I thought he should play as quickly as possible before just because I think that's how you develop. But I'm very concerned about what the offensive line may look like early in the season.

And it's tough because I think because of Matt Nagy being there, everybody wants to make the comparison to the chiefs and how they brought Patrick Mhombs along when Matt Nagy was their offensive coordinator there. And I just don't think you can really draw apples to apples comparisons there. You know, there's a lot of, you know, physical tools and stuff that when you look at Justin Fields and you look at Patrick Mahomes, you can say, oh, there's a lot of, you know, things like schematically that you could do. But the situations are totally different. The chiefs were a playoff caliber team that year. Alex Smith was an MVP candidate through the middle of that season. I don't think anyone is expecting that out about Andy Dalton. So you really have to take kind of a different

long-term look and not the not the way that you were looking at Patrick Mahomes is that we're sitting him to protect him it was we're sitting him because we can win right now and he can we have the luxury to develop him and you're you might be right that he might need to sit just to so he doesn't get hit over and over or he doesn't get hurt because like Joe Burrow missed almost half of his rookie year after just getting the crap kicked out of him of a year and last season and we don't want that to happen to Justin Fields And he's going to hang out of the ball. I mean, it's part of his DNA.

He did it again on Saturday. He's going to hang out of the ball because he's looking to make plays. And I don't know if he's going to be able to protect himself well enough to justify throwing him out there in week one if that offensive line remains as unsettled as it is. What about can I ask you about the Patriots quarterback situation as well? Because I know a couple weeks ago we talked about who will play first and when Mack Jones might play and if there's a chance that he could be the starter. What did you think of that, you know, of what you saw?

out of Mack Jones in his debut. They're also practicing right now with the Philadelphia Eagles, and Cam Newton has not been practicing very well. This seems like there's growing some momentum that Mac Jones maybe could wind up being the guy there sooner rather than later. Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, they paid Cam Newton a couple million dollars. I mean, that's not starting quarterback money.

They drafted Mac Jones in the first round for a reason. I thought he acquitted himself well in that first game. And I think that they have the infrastructure. there to protect a young quarterback. Their offensive line is very good. They went out and signed a lot of guys in free agency, no stars. But I think the talent around him in New England is such that he'd be okay if he had to play right away.

And if you think he's the guy and you want him to get as much time as possible, I think it makes total sense to put him in there. If he's the better quarterback right now and he's your quarterback in the future, you're running out of reasons not to play him. And I'll say one other quarterback competition watched. They're not rookies, but because it was airing live here in Denver, We watched with my whole family watched some of the Drew Locke, Teddy Bridgewater,

versus the Vikings on Saturday afternoon because this quarterback competition between Drew Locke and Teddy Bridgewater has been, like every snap has been documented. And we talked about it recently that, you know, in the media, everybody's trying to score it as like a boxing match and who won every day. Both guys played really well.

And the Vikings are a dumpster fire right now. I mean, the Vikings are a mess. Mike Zimmer's, I don't know if it was a halftime interview or immediately post-game interview, but it was one of the greatest things. I think it was at halftime. I've ever seen him. He listed every single thing that went wrong and then. But other than that, it's really great.

He is pissed and over all of it. But they played well. I mean, Drew Locke showed, you know, he showed off kind of the flashy arm talent. You know, he had an 80-yard play action touchdown very similar to the Tray Lance where, you know, the safeties from the Vikings, like, my husband had to rewind it to say, like, what is the safety doing? And I was like, they might as well have not even had a safety on the field. I mean, it was, I mean, KJ Hamler was wide open.

You got to hit that play. But it was a splashy. It looked pretty. But he made a couple other throws where you could see him working through his progressions, making the right reads, not just tucking and running with the ball, which he does a lot. The one in the middle of the field to Judy on that play. Yeah, it was like a mesh play, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you could just see like it clicking in his head in a way that we very rarely saw last year. You know, but then Teddy Bridgewater played fine, too. I mean, he didn't have like the big splash. Like he didn't have the 80 yard touchdown, but he was very efficient. I think he had a score actually called back because of a penalty. So his stats would have looked even better.

So no end to the quarterback competition in Denver. So it's going to go at least another week. I mean, the touchdown that he threw and then he had a couple other completions, it was on the same play. It was just a play action flood play where you have three levels and he threw it to the guy the second level because he was open. That was the touchdown. And then he had another fairly big one to Hamler, I think, as well on that exact same type of design. So, I mean, if you point Drew Locke in the right direction, he has a really good arm.

We know that about Drew Locke. And that's what we saw on Saturday. So I don't know. I feel like this is a dangerous road to go down if you're a Broncos fan is getting excited about what Drew Locke looks like in the preseason. Not to make this just like a mom podcast here, but I will say yesterday, my daughter in the kitchen said, mom when do I get to watch drew lock play football and I was like wow she's the only person in america like excited to watch drew lock play football this year children of denver and children of chicago so many similarities just low low expectations in the post patent manning era to be fair there was that really good stretch for a couple of years now that's the only that's the only era she knows all right let's get to these contenders and let's build some formulas for each of them

to win a super bowl and let's start with the green bay packers who watch lost in the NFC championship game last year, obviously at Tampa Bay. It was a close game. It was a good game. I was there. I mean, a couple of things go differently. Go for it. Don't kick a field goal.

Little sliding doors moments. Maybe the Packers are the champions last year and we're not having this conversation. So where do you start as you build a formula, a Super Bowl winning formula for the Packers in 2021? Yeah, it's tough because like you said, they were so close last year. And, you know, I think roster-wise, we talk so much about the bucks and how complete the Bucs roster is, the Packers roster is just as complete. And we had so many offseason questions about Aaron Rogers and that really dominated, I think, the way that we had to think about the Packers. But a lot of the things that went wrong in the NFC championship game were the things that they

actively worked to address this year. That's the secondary. You know, so I think it's some defensive changes. It's better coverage in their secondary, especially if they know that they're going to have to match up against the Bucks, potentially, in a playoff game, or the Rams or one of these other teams that are really deep but wide receiver and have really talented offensive play callers and scheme designers. So I think it's really focusing on the back end of that defense. They've had a lot of issues at cornerback in the past. So I think that's part of it.

And then offensively, just kind of building off of what they have done in the past with Aaron Rogers. And I think they got into a really good place, Rogers and Mount LaFlor, last. year. And despite all of the drama and everything that went on this off season, I don't think there were ever massive issues between Rogers and the floor, even with the kicking the field goal and how it was like a funny thing to talk about with Jeopardy and all of that stuff. I think those guys are in a pretty good place. So let's not like steer this off the rails because of all of the other stuff that's gone on. You're a good team. You have the right quarterback. I think you

have the right head coach. You're getting the missing pieces that you needed on defense. So let's not let this other stuff drive you off the rails. I think that's totally fair. I think on offense, it's just about staying where they were last year. This is the best offense in the NFL. So with David Bakhtiari missing potentially the beginning of the season, with Josh Myers taking over for Corey Winsley, can you be as good of a union again? And I think the answer is yes.

You bring in guys like Amari Rogers and Randall Cobb who give you a skill set. They just missed. We've talked about it so many times on this show. They just didn't have that sort of guy, that guy with an ability to a attack teams in the middle of the field, line up in the slot, just give you something different. They had a lot of redundancy at their wide receiver positions, and now they have that. And then you look at what they were at the end of last season. If Bakhtiari plays in that game, who knows what happens.

But the way they played against the Rams, I think, is such an indication of where this offense was at the end of the year. You have a lot of two back sets where they can do some different stuff out of those shotgun runs. Rogers with a RPO game and just how good he is. Brands Daly told me last week that Rogers is the best quick game thrower in the history of the NFL. And that's what showed up in that game. And if you look at the way defenses are going in the league, we're going to talk a lot about this over the next month or so. The Rogers-led Packers have such a good formula to attack these defenses that are trying to take away explosive plays from you.

Because they're patient and they're efficient. He's willing to flip it out to Devante Adams for six yards on first down. They're willing to run the ball for five yards of carry. They're willing to just take it and take it and take it in a way. a lot of other offenses can't because eventually they're going to make a mistake. The Packers are capable of playing mistake-free football in a way that really no offense in the league is capable of playing because of how good Rogers is protecting the ball. So if they stick with that formula, I think the offense will be very good again, super elite.

To me, the question is what happens on defense? They made a change for a reason. Joe Barry coming over to be the defensive coordinator, I think they want to tap into some of those ideas that the Rams used last year. and you look at it, they faced 335 attempts last season with 6 dbs on the field. That was the most in the NFL. They played more dime than anybody. They always do. And so when you look at it, they had light boxes at a pretty high rate,

a lot of the stuff aligns with some of these ideas on a broad level that have worked in the NFL for these defenses. But I think there are tiny tweaks here and there. I think if you look at some of the ways the Rams locks Jalen Ramsey on the backside of coverages, they can do that with Jaira or Alexander. if you look at some of the single high coverages at the Rams plate, even though they started with too high before the play started, just little tiny things to mix it up.

And then the last thing for me, and you look, like you said, the defensive talent is so good. I mean, it's so good. Jair Alexander, Darnel Savage, Adrian Amos, I mean, these are really good players. The problem was, I think the talent that they have didn't show up on the front end of the defense last year. This is a team at the fifth lowest pressure rate in the entire NFL.

That can't happen when you have, Zadarius Smith, Preston, Smith, Roshan Gary, and Kenny Clark. You are paying those guys a premium. I mean, every single one of them, with Gary, you paid up a premium in draft capital. You can't have the fifth lowest pressure rate in the week. Roshan Gary had 500 snaps last year.

I assume that number will grow this year. And I want to see what they do with the combinations of players they can use up front. Because if they can get a little bit more juice on the front and be a little bit more unpredictable on the back, this absolutely could be a top 10 defense. They were in middle of the pack last year. and before they wanted to change out their defensive coordinator.

So if you're looking at the second best offense in the league and the eighth best defense, there's no reason this team can't push to be the number one seat in the NFC. I think that's totally fair. And we're going to see they open against the Saints, which I still am so curious what the Saints offense is going to look like. I mean, it's going to be really interesting. I mean, regardless of who their personnel is going to be and who their starting quarterback, you know that Sean Payton will have some interesting,

things that he'll try to bring out week one. But they might be in a position where they can get a lot of picks, whether it's James or Tassum Hill in week one and kind of really get into a groove right away. And let us really see who Joe Barry is going to be as this coordinator. Also, Marquez Calloway is like the best receiver on the Saints roster. It's not just the quarterback. There are a lot of problems happening over there. Alvin Camaro is the best receiver. That's fair. I have a lot of faith in Sean Payton. We've talked about it often. I think he has an uphill climb ahead of him this year, to say the least. All right, let's get to another team that lost in the conference championship game last year,

and that is the Buffalo Bills. If you were building the Super Bowl winning formula for the Bills, where would you start? Josh Allen needs to continue on the trajectory that he's been on. We can't have regression at all out of Josh Allen. But I think the one thing that was really clearly missing from them, that was a clear separation between where the bills needed to go, between them and the Chiefs, where they needed to go, the way that the Bucks played against the Chiefs,

that they just have not had a consistent pass rush. So defensively, that has been, has to be the focus. They have to be able to consistently get pressure, whether that's on Patrick Mahomes when they meet in the regular season and then certainly if they play in the postseason. But really week in and week out, they need to be able to consistently just get more of a pass rush out of their front four. And that was really what was missing last year. I'm very curious to see if kind of the guys that they didn't go out and add like a bunch of splashy. like free agents there, but they clearly invested it in their draft capital. They knew that they needed to address their front seven. They knew they needed to get better pass rush in the draft. So they

used their top two picks, I believe, or is it top three? Top two picks, right? Top two. Yeah, top two. And then they had some offensive line depth a little bit later in the draft. So they very clearly knew what their weaknesses were. So but they need to get kind of a return on that investment from young guys very quickly. So the pass rush was the number one thing they needed to address. Obviously, you see that with who they added in the draft. Brandon Bean said that to me when I was in Buffalo. He said that we knew we needed to get better there. We wore down late last season.

And you can see that. They had 11 pressures on 39 and Mahomes' dropbacks in the championship game. This is a team that was eighth in blitz rate last year and 22nd in pressure rate. That's not sustainable. I mean, their talent on the back end is good, even if we have questions about the second cornerback. That's not a formula you can stick with. So in their minds, it was about adding a guy like Greg Rousseau because it's not just

about sacks, it's about just disruption. You saw that in the Detroit game. I mean, he had that really nice play against Penteau where, I mean, some of it is on the quarterback depth and a lot of other things, but he's long. He's going to get in people's ways. And that's what the Bucks did. The Bucks had long defensive players that could really just disrupt what quarterbacks were trying to do. And I think they saw that and said, we need to get longer and more explosive on the edge. And then Basham was just there for them in the second round.

They did not plan on taking two pass rushers in the first two rounds. but they just thought he was too good of a prospect to pass up. And this is a team for the most part under Brandon Bean that has taken the best player. I mean, they use their first round pick on Stefan Diggs a couple years ago. But other than that, and they've just tried to get who they think is the best player at that spot, whether it's Ed Oliver, Tremaine Edmonds. And they really haven't said this is where our needs are. So I think that's how you end up with two pass rushes in the first two rounds.

So they need that. They need that combination of those two guys, AJ Epinessa, Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison. and they're just throwing bodies at the problem. And if they can be more disruptive up there, that's what they hope will carry their defense. And then on offense, I think you said it. They're relying on the same formula. You know, this is the group.

They brought this group back. For a couple of years, they tinkered. And they went out inside of Darrell Williams on a one-year deal, John Feliciano in a short-term deal, quit in Spain on a short-term deal. They retain Feliciano and Williams. I mean, this is the offensive line they're rolling with. And the one concern there,

do you see what Sean McDermott said about, Dionne Dawkins today? No, what did he say? Apparently he's like not close to being ready. Yikes. Because he's been on the COVID list. Like that is the stuff that's worth paying attention to. Like those are the tiny,

they really, the cracks that you can see heading into this portion of the season. You miss your left tackle for a chunk of the year because his conditioning isn't there. That sucks for a team that thinks it's on the precipice of a championship. That's a big deal.

So those are the little tiny things to play with. Offensively, I think the plan is going to be relatively the same. They know, and talk to people there, it wasn't a lack of rushing efficiency overall. It was a lack of rushing efficiency in the red zone. And the numbers bear that out. They had the lowest EPA created on red zone runs in the NFL last season. They were dead last. They were 15th between the 20s. So I'll be curious to see what sort of approach they take in that area of the field this year. Does Josh Allen run the ball more on design runs than he would have in the past.

Do they throw the ball more in that area of the field after being one of the past happiest teams in the league last year? So I just think it's going to be little tweaks on offense, little tweaks on defense. On defense, it's personnel on offense. It's mostly just approach in certain areas of the field because I think this team believes rightfully that it was pretty close. Yeah, no, they absolutely were close. I mean, I don't think there weren't really any moments in the AFC championship game outside

of Patrick Mahomes' health that I think. thought the bills were actually going to win that game. But I think if you look at where those two teams are in the direction they're heading and the change that the bills have made to their roster, I think they're going, they're going in the right direction to get closer. The scary part is, you know, if you have a full strength, Patrick Mahomes and a full strength chiefs offensive line, is that enough? I guess we'll see in January.

That's the most troubling thing is that they were playing against a banged up chiefs offensive line and still couldn't create any pressure in that game. So we'll see what happens. All right, let's get to the Cleveland Browns. If you're starting your Super Bowl winning formula for the Browns in 2021, where are you starting? I want to see just more growth out of Baker-Mayfield. And I loved the design of the running game. I loved the power of their running game last year.

I loved the investment that they have made in their offensive line. But ultimately, if you want to be a contender, like a real Super Bowl caliber team, I think they just need to have more consistent production out of their passing game. And, you know, Baker Mayfield is probably sitting there and seeing Josh Allen get this massive deal. And it's time for him to prove it. It's time for the passing game to catch up to what they're doing, what they're doing with their running game. So that's where I think it starts. I agree.

I think that their offense needs to take a step forward. They were 10th in EPA per play last season. They'll tell you they want to be in the top five this year because they truly believe they can take a step. With Baker being in year two of the system, also getting Odell back. Every single person who has asked, is this team better with O'Don? without Odo Becker. They are not. I could definitively tell you that they are not.

They need his skill set. They need his skill set to do the things on offense they want to be able to do in the passing game this year. I think they want to be a little bit more explosive with getting the ball in guys' hands. They have some wrinkles on some of the concepts that they want to run. They feel like as teams get more and more used to playing those play action boot teams and they plan for it, what are your counterpunches to that? So I think that's what they have to do.

you offensively. And then defensively, you see it. I mean, you see what they want to do. The shuffling that they have done is an effort to get up into the top half of the league. They made so many changes. I mean, saw how Jeremiah Wusukoramoa played in that preseason opener. They have so many new bodies and so many different combinations they can throw at you. I think that is the plan.

If they can be the 12th best defense in the league and the fifth best offense, this team absolutely is right there on the doorstep of winning a Super Bowl. Do you think top five offense is realistic? Yes. For them? I do. I do. I absolutely think that they have the talent.

And the way that they can attack teams with Odell and then with a guy like Anthony Schwartz, I absolutely do. I mean, they do the right things. I mean, this is a team that uses a ton of play action, a ton of screens. They get easy yards. They make the game easier on their players. And I think what happened at the end of last year is that the players just weren't good enough. You looked at the way the chiefs.

were defending them, there was just no respect for the amount of talent and speed they had in the lineup. And you put Beckham back in there who apparently physically looks really good and a guy like Anthony Schwartz and it's just the progress makes sense to me. So I absolutely think they can get there. And then defensively, one of the things that's come up over and over and over again in the last two weeks is I've talked to people. I've had a lot of conversations about the Rams and what teams learn from the Rams and what teams can learn from that defensive system. And I think when we think about last year's Rams, people talk about the too high safety stuff. And that's the transition to like the Fangio system.

But the thing that's come up in so many conversations is that it's personnel. It's the amount of different personnel groupings the Rams threw at teams last year. And if you look at the way the Browns are built now on the back end, they can do that. I mean, if they want to play J.O.K. and Walker at the same time and have that be kind of a weird linebacker duo that can play 11 personnel and have one guy walk out over the slot. If they want to play three safeties at a time, if they want to play four corners at a time, they just have these options now. And I think that flexibility and that ability to be unpredictable, not only with the coverages that you're going to play, but about who's going to be on the field on any given snap, I think that's where a lot of defenses want to go. And I think that's exactly how they built this spring.

And you're walking through it in a way that makes a ton of sense. I do think the one question and the thing that will need to work out for them to be legit super super. Bowl contender is all of these pieces that they've added, especially on their defensive line, sometimes the names are better than the reality, at least in recent seasons, for some of these guys, for Jadabian Clownie for Malik Jackson, where, you know, Malik Jackson can be awesome when he, when he is healthy, when he is feeling it. I mean, he obviously was great for the Broncos five years ago, back before my daughter was even born. And then he was part of those, you know, those really good Jacksonville defenses when they went to the AFC championship games.

a couple years ago, but he was out all last year with an injury. You know, he's an intriguing piece, and he sets that kind of nasty tone that, that you really want for a really good defense. He's going to get you a personal foul every single game, but you kind of just learn to live with that. But, you know, both him and Jadavia and Clowny, I think, are, you know, really high upside type of signings, but we just need to actually see them do it because for both of those guys, it's been a while since they've actually had a really productive season. I think that Jadavian Clownie being the number two rush around a team definitively is a really good thing. And the ways that they can use him, just have nothing but stunts and twists. Just have him be a wrecking ball who lines up inside

and just, I just feel like having him be a role player and not expected to be a star in both the pecking order of your personnel and in what you're paying him. I think that bodes well for everybody involved in this transaction. And if they can get just super role player type production from guys like Clownie and Malay Jackson while Miles Garrett looks like the guy of Miles Garrett was last year before he got COVID in the middle of the season, then I absolutely think that their defensive line could be okay. They're thin. They're going to need something out of those, out of Andrew Billings who didn't play last year,

and Tommy Toggiye, who's a rookie. I just want to see what combination of players they can find inside because I think with Clowny's versatility, Garrett, and just maybe a little. bit of something from Tack McKinley, that unit can get you there. I think the secondary is going to be the strength of that team, but we've seen that you don't need all of this past rushing talent to generate pressure as long as you have one or two really useful, effective pieces that defenses have to account for. Miles Garrett's a different player than Aaron Donald, but the Rams didn't have all these guys. Leonard Floyd was available for nothing last off season. I mean, Genevian Clowney and Leonard Floyd, to me, have

similar skill sets. You can use them in similar ways. I think they have more than enough if those guys are deployed in the right way. All right. Let's get to the Ravens. I think this one's pretty easy. I don't know where you would start. I mean, they need to have a real passing game. That's it.

It's not that hard to get there. Can Sammy Watkins and Rashad Bateman bring a new dimension to the passing game? That's all I have written down. Yeah, I mean, they just need to be able to do it week after week after week. And the offense needs to be more than just like Lamar makes shit. happen. I don't know. Rashad Bateman, now he's going to be, he's out, he's going to be hurt for a while. But if they want to be back to the Ravens that are making a deep run into the playoffs, that's really the only thing that matters, right? I mean, that's really the only question

that has to be answered. I totally agree. I mean, I think because you look at everything else and everything else is pretty much status quo, this team is, they're so good at building teams. You look at the depth chart and some of the things that they did, right? So they trade Orlando Brown because he wants to be a left tackle and he wants left tackle money. Totally understandable. I mean, if I were him, I would think the same thing after playing the way that I did last year. So they trade him and they sign Alejandro Villeneueva for 15 cents on the dollar to be their right tackle. They go get Kevin Zitler and free agency, but he was cut so it doesn't affect their comp pick formula. The pick that they traded Orlando Brown for, they use Addafe Owe, who is an unbelievably

talented young pass rusher that they can bring along slowly because they signed Justin Houston off the street. O.A came out today and said, God, Justin Houston's is teaching me so much. He called him Yoda. Just the little things he's teaching him and everything else. So they signed a guy to be a stopgap starter to nurture their first round pick as he comes along slowly as a raw player, but they have still enough bodies to generate a pass rush up front. It's just every, and Joanne James, they signed to play next year when Villanueva leaves. Like, it, this, team is three steps ahead all of the time. It's very impressive the way they accumulate talent and the way the pieces fit together. And I think on defense, that's why even after losing

Janikin Gakwe and Matthew Judon and Free Agency, they've planned to replace those guys. And I think if you get a step forward from Patrick Queen, we know who the guys are on the back end. I just expect this to be a top 10 defense again. And maybe that's too simple, but I don't know why it wouldn't be outside of a major rash of injuries. I think the question is, is what does the passing game look like? Because some of the wrinkles they threw in late last season, which A.K. Dobbins get a little bit more work. And them throwing just a couple little wrinkles on their quarterback run game,

they were really efficient running the ball down the stretch. So if they can just tweak their passing game a little bit, and we can get a little bit more from Greg Roman, which I feel like we continue to say, then they're absolutely right there with all of these teams. How many questions or concerns do you have about their offensive line situation? I think you have to have some just because of all the moving pieces, right?

Like Bradley Bo's moving to center. Kevin Zatler and Villanueva are new starters on the right side. But I think they're in much better shape than a lot of other teams in the league just because we've seen those guys do it. I mean, it's not as they're older now, obviously, especially Villanueva. And I don't think they're quite as good as they were at tackle last year. But now you get Ronnie Stanley back. I mean, I think overall that group is more than enough for them to get where they want

to go on offense. My other question, I'm concerned now, is that Lamar Jackson has. now had COVID twice and is still like being very hesitant or will not talk about the vaccine. I think this is a tenuous situation where they're one of those teams where I don't, this is not going to be a COVID podcast. But a team where that is, it could be a thing there. And I just kind of want to know that he's going to be healthy and available all season. I mean, that's obviously a question, right?

Like if any of these quarterbacks miss time for something like that, then that's something that we have to take into account. But injuries and missing time, that's going to be something with all of these teams, right? It's almost not even worth mentioning just because we know that. If teams get hurt, then that's the jenga piece taken out of this equation that will ruin everything. All right. I don't want to spend a ton of time on this because I think Nate and I are going to talk about them a decent amount on tomorrow's show, especially with their offense and the changes they could make.

But what about the Seahawks? Because I think they're on the back end of this. I think that I'm doing it by over under wins. I think the Seahawks and the Niners, our last two teams here, are in a different tier than the first four teams that we talked about personally. What do you mean by different tier? I just think they're a step down. I think their championship hopes are not quite as bright as the first four teams that we talked about. I think more has to go right for them.

I think their rosters have more question marks on them, things like that. Yeah. So I think for the Seahawks, it's, you know, I think Russell Wilson gives them a higher floor than most teams. but their ceiling has been limited by personnel, by a lot of the defensive turnover that they've gone through about the offensive line protection issues and honestly by some of Russell Wilson's own shortcomings and the way that he hasn't necessarily performed consistently, especially late in the season. So, you know, I think for them, it needs to be a step forward offensively. It needs to be, I mean, obviously they're going through basically a complete schematic overhaul,

but it needs to work and it needs to work really quickly. So I'm going to be really interested to hear kind of the deep dive schematic discussion that you and Nate have on this because I think it's going to be really intricate. But I mean, to me, that's what it comes down to, right? Is that when the Seahawks are good, it's because Russell Wilson is cooking for lack of a better term, right? And, you know, we saw them really stall out at times last year, especially late in the season in games where they really needed to win.

And I mean, I still think they're in that 10 win, especially in a 17 game season. I think they're very firmly in that 10, 11 win territory. But I don't know. What about what do you think? I think their offense just needs to make things a little bit easier on themselves. I mean, the degree of difficulty that they play with at times, I think that's the goal for Shane Waldron is can we get Russ some layups? Can we have some yet more yak opportunities?

Can we attack in the intermediate area of the field with some. play action where we're giving him a little clearer picture than when he's just dropping back and throwing from the pocket in that area. I mean, that's the question to me is with a little bit more tempo, with a little bit more variety in the ways that they attack defenses, can they sustain some of the success that we've seen? We're going to talk a lot about that on tomorrow. We're going to do the first year play callers, the most intriguing first year play callers

with me and Nate tomorrow. So we'll talk a lot about that. But their offensive line is, you know, they have reasonable players there. They traded for Gabe Jackson. I mean, I think their offense has a chance to be really good. this scheme takes. To me, the question is, what's going to happen on defense? I just think they have so many questions about who's going to fill some of these roles.

I mean, Trey Brown, rookie corners apparently fighting get one of those starting spots. They're still figuring out what they're going to do with the nickel with Marquis Blair and Hugo Amati. So, I mean, there are just real questions on the back end of this defense to me with unproven players. And that's just a concern that the other teams in this group, they don't have. They don't have that big of a week. weakness. And I think that's why Seattle is just one step down for me. If they figure out the

back end of their defense, I think their front seven has a lot of good players in it. They have a decent amount of pass rush options. We obviously know what Bobby Wagner is. Jordan Brooks had a pretty promising rookie season. So if they can figure out the back end, their defense could be pretty good. But I just think that's a much bigger question than it is for a lot of the teams we're talking about here. God, I'm just, I'm going back through their death chart. And there's a lot of like guys you say maybe they'll be good. But compared to most of the other teams that we've already talked about, there's... They're just penciling in a Keller-Weather spoon is one of their starting corners.

Like, there are a lot of questions here. I mean, really on there too deep, there's really in the couple names that jump out of you, and it's Bobby Wagner and Jamal Adams. And Jamal Adams is not particularly happy right now. He doesn't have his new contract figured out. So why did they not bring back KJ right? Do we have, like, a good answer for this? I really don't know.

Pete wanting to move on from veterans and why has anyone else sign KJ right is just confusing to me. I have no idea. He was on the NFL 100, which we could critique the NFL 100 for a lot of different reasons. But he was on that already. And he's got to be the only current free agent who was on the NFL 100 from last season. Yeah, it's very strange. I cannot pin it down. But I think that their defense, they'll be fine in the front.

I honestly think they will. I think if they can figure out their secondary, they have a chance to be pretty good. And then if the offense takes, that's the path. If they have one of the best offenses in the league, their defense was tolerable last season. But then you lose Griffin in free agency. But if they could figure out those corner spots and be merely average there, I think that their defense is enough if their offense gets to be truly elite for them to really contend in the NFC. All right.

Let's move on to the last one here. Their division mates, the San Francisco 49ers. If you were building the Super Bowl formula for the Niners, where would you start? So this one is really tricky to me because we've kind of seen the Super Bowl formula of this version of the Niners. And it's a full season of Jimmy Garoppolo being healthy, a ridiculously strong running game, George Kittle, just demolishing dudes every other snap. And then the best defense in the NFL.

There have been some personnel changes since then. Obviously, you don't have DeForest Buckner. anymore. So I think, you know, that was, he was such a huge key of what they did. We're still waiting to see Nick Bosa get back to full strength, although, you know, he was a rookie during that Super Bowl run. I mean, just wrecked shit in the postseason at the end of that rookie season. He tore his ACL in week one, which is that bodes well for him being healthy and ready to go early. I mean, they've been bringing him along very slowly, being very cautious with him through training camp, because he was a guy who had, he came into the NFL with some injury questions. So we've kind of

have seen what their Super Bowl formula is. The big question now is that, you know, we saw kind of what their Super Bowl ceiling was and where their limitations were. So now they have a quarterback, is their backup quarterback who potentially can do the things that Jimmy Garoppolo couldn't. So I'm not sure if the super the best Super Bowl formula, and this is probably what Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch are trying to figure out, is the best Super Bowl formula, tried to run it back exactly like you did, the way that you won in 2019 and got within basically a big third down completion of winning the Super Bowl? Or do you make that change at some point to the guy who can do more for you offensively, who gives you more answers and a better physical skill tool set with Tray Lance than you have in Garapolo?

So that one, it's a little bit harder for me to predict exactly what is the path forward because I'm not ready to go. I saw the Tray Lance beautiful play action 80-yard touchdown pass. and there's so many splash plays that he has there. I'm just not sure if he's as well-rounded at this moment to be ready to take a team to the Super Bowl as a rookie. I just, I don't know, I don't know that answer. Or if it's kind of trying to run it back like you did a couple years ago. I feel like the optimism around this team and the fact that they're over under is so high

and that we're even talking about them in this, it's baked in that Trey Lance is maybe going to play this year. I just don't know how you can look at that team with Jim and Grohl pull and think, oh, that's a 10-win team, definitely. So their bias in week six. Let's say, you know, they play their first five games of the season. It's not an easy stretch. They open with, well, I lied.

I was looking at the preseason schedule. So their first five games, lions, eagles, Packers, Seahawks, Cardinals. Say you go three and two in that stretch. You sprinkle them in some run game situations, and then you get to a point in week six. like, all right, he's ready. Like, well, we feel comfortable putting him in and your offense takes a step forward. And it just adds a different dimension.

Because I think their defense is a chance to be really good this year. It's hard to imagine them being the best defense in the NFL or a top three defense the way they were a couple years ago. Even if you're optimistic about Javan Kinlaw, it's a tenuous situation at a cornerback. They're really relying on Jason Verrett to stay healthy, which fingers crossed, I hope he can. But I just think that group is less dynamic and less deep than it has been in the past. it's a more fragile situation back there. On offense, they have a lot of talent,

but I think that they need Trey Lance and his skill set to take them the final step, which I don't think is, I'm saying anything that the Niners wouldn't even admit. That's why they drafted Trey Lance. So if that happens, if Lance comes in and he's just a supernova with the other talent they have on offense, and D'Amico Ryan's in his first year as a coordinator can be really good, and this can be a top 10-ish defense in the way that it was last year,

then I think they absolutely could be right in the mix. But I think Trey Lance and his talent needs to be part of this equation. And I think that equation in this formula, it's going to just be really, really interesting to see how Shanahan manages this and how he massages this and what is the timing? You know, is it week one, is it week six? Is it week 10? I don't think this can be a situation where you're pulling guys in and out.

You know, he's already talking about how Trey Lance will play, that there's going to be packages for him. but it's a really difficult thing to navigate when you have the first round pick quarterback, a guy who has kind of an explosive, really special skill set, how you manage that, how you manage that within the locker room, how you manage it with the fan base, everything that's going on online. I know that Kyle Shanhan isn't sitting around on Twitter all day reading his mentions like the rest of us are, but it is a thing and it's something that he is going to have to manage.

I think the moment you draft Trey Lance, there's an understanding that that's going to be your guy. I mean, it's whatever shift there's been in the locker room, they watch that guy every day. I mean, they see how much more talented Trey Lance is than Jimmy Garapo. I mean, it's the reason you make this move. So there's definitely things to navigate, but. But why that gets tricky is if the players and if the teammates and the guys in the locker room all see that this guy is really special. But you continue to roll with the other guy and you keep saying, well, we can win with Jimmy and Jimmy's our guy.

Oh, you're going the opposite way. Okay. No, that makes total sense. But again, I don't know. My hunch is that he plays this year. I don't know how soon, but my hunch is that he eventually becomes a starting Yeah, I think so too. And it's just part of this whole formula is how they manage it and just how, you know,

how he is able to kind of go back and forth between the two guys and make this transition work. All right. I forgot to add one team to this list here because I'm in transit again and feeling a little bit scared. To be fair, you have talked about them in the context of just about. every other team. So it kind of felt like we've talked about the last. It's true. And I've also talked about them on every other show.

All right. The Super Bowl winning formula for the Rams. Why don't you give me yours? Because I've talked about it ad nauseum on 10 different podcasts. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm so curious what the Matthew Stafford version of this offense is going to look like. Because in a lot of these other situations, we've talked about, you know, what you're

going to do with this quarterback. And the answers that a more physically gifted quarterback is going to give you. And Matthew Stafford, unquestionably. does that for the Rams. So it's turning them back into a top three offense in the NFL. And, you know, can they do that? And can they do that week in and week out? Because I think they have decent offensive line, above average receiving core. Now you should have one of the better quarterbacks in the NFL. Running game is still a question. But for me, this is all about, you know, when they went to the Super Bowl a couple years ago, yes, they had an amazing defense. They had really good

defensive players, Wade Phillips, kind of pressed all the right buttons for that defense. But they went to the Super Bowl a couple of years ago because their offense was one of the most, like, innovative and exciting offenses that we've seen in the last, what, 10, 15 years of the NFL. And they've kind of, they've taken us a couple steps back from that. So this is time for Sean McVeigh to unleash kind of a new level of Sean McVeigh, unlock some new things in Matthew Stafford that we really didn't get to see over the last couple years in Detroit. And If they're going to get back to the Super Bowl, it's because they figured that out. And they're back to being the offense, the must watch offense, the one that all the film nerds are just geeking out to watch every Monday morning when Sunday the All-22 is back on Game Pass.

I'm told it's coming back. I've been promised, well, I don't know if I would say promise. I've been promised that it's coming back, though, that it's just like a tech issue, just for a. I'll believe it when I see it. Not that it's going away. It's not like a fundamental, like, we're getting rid of Game Pass. it's like that they just have to get it back onto the server. But once that's back, like, that's going to be the first film that we're going to watch.

It's because we're so excited to see, like, what exactly was Sean McVeigh doing and coming up with. So that's their formula. And I don't know exactly the way that it's how you do that, what exactly that's going to look like. But that's what they have to do. It's always funny when you talk to coaches about how they steal and the ways that they steal and what they look for. and you'll ask them about a specific player or a specific idea. And we can't do that. You know, that looks great, but our quarterback can't do that.

So it's just not something that we can snatch and put into our game plan. And I think that that limited the Rams. You look around the league and some of the really interesting dynamic things that a team like the Packers can use. And they just can't do it. They couldn't do some of that stuff because their quarterback just couldn't do it. And I just feel like the options open up more with Matthew Stafford. And the Hedon just do more things.

And I think that's why we're going to see just a wider breadth of stuff from the Rams this year because of what Matthew Stafford allows them to steal from other teams. I think their offense got a little bit static because they had to shrink it rather than expand it over those last couple seasons. And I think that changes. And the other thing that we should mention is that this is the best defense in the league last year. They won't be again. There is a very, very small chance that they'll be the best defense in the league.

But if they're the seventh best defense in the league, If Rahim Morris can do a really good job, what they're doing is interesting, right? Not all the time do you see a defensive coordinator from a different coaching tree or a different system come in and have the assistance inform him about what they did the year before because that's what they want to continue doing. Often you'll promote from within in order to establish that continuity.

So if that experiment works, if they can carry over a lot of the stuff they did from last season because a good chunk of that staff is, there, whether it's Eric Henderson, the defensive line coach, Agero Evereaux, their passing game coordinator. I mean, they still have some of those voices there. And if they can make that work, which is a difficult needle to thread, then you'd hope that their offense is good enough to pick up the slack

and take this team right back to the playoffs. And I think that's absolutely possible. And they do have some personnel changes. I mean, they lost some pretty important free agents that they're now trying to replace. Yes. John Johnson, Troy Hill were really important pieces on their back end, especially John Johnson. I mean, he did a ton of the communication back there.

And now they're, they're putting a ton on these young guys, Jordan Fuller, six-round pick in 2020. They love, love, love, love that kid. But they're going to need him to be a superstar in the back end. Taylor Rap is going to play more than we've seen him playing before. That's the hope, right? Is that Taylor Rap and Terrell Burgess in some combination can combine, give you a John Johnson. Like, that's what they're banking on.

which that's a I mean that's a lot I mean John Johnson was a really really special player but I you know it's going to be interesting I mean these are things that Rahim Morris is going to have to figure out I do really like you know Rahim Morris's background is interesting and I don't think you could bring just anybody in but he has worked in a lot of different systems he's been an offensive coach he's been a head coach so I just think he views the game really interesting and I would love to kind of be in a meeting room with him and Sean McVe because I bet those conversations are really interesting because of the way that they both see the game. You know, Brandon Staley was kind of, she was just such a revelation in his one year as a coordinator there and the way that he was able to use Jalen Ramsey especially and kind of, look, I think anybody can coach Aaron. I could probably coach Aaron Donald, I'm guessing, which also, by the way, I'm just going to plug Jordan Rodriguez NFL 100 story on Aaron Donald. She sat down and watched a 31 play cut up of Aaron Donald highlights with Sean McVey.

and it is excellent. It went live on the athletic on Monday morning. So make sure you read that because you're going to learn a ton about football and about Aaron Donald. I think it doesn't take like a genius, a coaching genius to coach Aaron Donald. But it's going to take a really smart guy to figure out how to use all the rest of these pieces, especially with all the changes that they've been going through.

Lindsay, that is all we got. If all of these teams follow that formula step by step, we'll have seven Super Bowl champions. I said they're still going to lose to either the cheeps or the bucks. So that's fine. That's probably true. And also make sure, can I do one more plug? Make sure you go read my 40 under 40 list that went live, the NFL 40 under 40.

It's kind of my annual second annual 40 under 40 you're going to learn about. A lot of guys that you may not know about and women, men and women working in the NFL coordinators, play callers, front office, up and coming scouts. So make sure you go check that out and learn about some people that maybe you didn't already know about. It is bookmarked. I'm going to read it this evening when I get to my hotel in Cincinnati. So everyone else should as well. Lindsay, thank you so much for the time.

We'll talk to you next week. Thanks. I'll see you later. All right, guys, now it's time for our chat with our Cowboys writer at the Athletic John Moshoda. Before we get to that, I just wanted to let you know. We recorded this before the preseason game this weekend. So Neville Gallimore's injury is not something we could hit. I also didn't realize that Connor Williams was starting for the Cowboys at Center instead of Tyler Biotis.

So that is something we also didn't touch on. Just a little bit of context before you dig into our conversation. Here's our chat with John. John, how you doing, man? I'm doing well. back in Dallas, back in the regular grind, missing the California weather already. I went to Oxnard and you were not there. That was 100% on me.

Lack of communication. When you're on camp number 13 and you're trying to keep all the balls in the air, sometimes you don't tell one of your coworkers that you're going to be there in 48 hours and then you learn that that person has already gone home. You look great though. Sun splashed out in the California sun for about a month here. I'm sure it's nice to be home for you though. It is, but I got to ask you, if you've been to 13 camps, like, is there anything that compares to, like, the way it is?

And because I can just tell you right now, I don't even know how the weather was the day that you were there, but I'm sure it was just like it every other day. Perfect. It was great. It was a little bit warm. L.A. and the L.A. area during the summer can get a little hot. You know, it gets into, like, the high 80s. So when I was down in Orange County with the Chargers in the Rams, those couple days, it was warm. And then up in Oxnard was a little bit warm. I mean, there's no setup like the Cowboys training camp. It's its own little village up there in a very distinct way. For people who don't know, they do it up in Knoxnard, California, and you can see it on Hard Knocks, right? The players stay in this residence inn that is next to the highway, next to a small highway, like a state highway in Knoxnard.

And so the whole residence inn where you'd stay as a normal hotel is roped off from the general public. So it's its own little village, and then there's the two fields behind the hotel. and everyone's set up in trailers and it's something I've gotten used to because I've been there four or five times but it is a very unique set of circumstances for an NFL team and especially in a world where so few NFL teams

go on the road for camp anymore. Yeah and it's way different than when they've, like last year they had it at the star where they can have fans on their indoor but it's just so hot back here that you're not going to have a bunch of fans around. Yeah. I mean you could, I guess for a couple of practices,

fans would show up, but it would start thinning out after a while because it's just so hot out there during the day. So, like, now they're going to come back to Frisco and they're going to do camp next week there, and they're going to be open to fans. But those will all be indoor practices. So it'll be like back when, before the Cowboys went to Oxner, they used to be in San Antonio. And they would do all their training camp inside the Elmo Dome. And so it was just like, you know, I guess groundhogs. I didn't cover the team then. But I can tell you from the writers that did cover it then compared to, like,

what it is now, it's night and day. I mean, everybody that covers this team, and probably the players too, everybody prefers that they continue to go out to Oxnard for as many years in the future as possible. I know Jerry Jones, Jerry loves it, but I'm hoping that Stephen loves it as much as him so that we can just plan ahead another 10, 15, 20 years, you know. Jerry doesn't stay at the residence in, I assume. Does he have like a residence in Oxnard or is he staying up somewhere in Santa Barber? Like, how does that work? I don't need his address. I'm just curious what his setup is. Well, he could just pull his boat right up to the shore and stand that. No.

It's so sure. I've heard that he has a home in Santa Barbara. And so I'm sure he goes up there quite a bit. But no, I don't think you're going to catch Jerry and the residence in there. I know he has a room there. For anybody that's caught hard knocks the first episode, he has like an office room there too where he was talking to their athletic chair, Jim Maurer, on the phone, and famously eating his McGrittle and salting the shit out of it.

So I'm sure if you've seen a lot of it. I'm sure if you've seen Hard Knocks, you've seen that scene. So that is on that campus there. But yeah, I don't see Jerry staying the night there every night while he's out in California. Speaking of medical person, though, I can't assume that Jerry's general practitioners thrilled about the amount of salt he's putting on that already very salty piece of fast food. I am a griddle supporter. I think that it's a great fast food item.

Putting more salt on it is an indefensible choice. You know, I wonder if it's just kind of like an aged thing because, like, I'm not a big, I don't put salt on very much, but... I never add salt to anything. I've never said, this needs more salt. That is never something I do. Right. And I also, at my place, I don't have salt and pepper shakers on, like, a kitchen table like my parents did, like my grandparents did.

So, I don't know, maybe just different generations, things like that. Whenever I'm eating fast food, though, I would never even think to put salt on it because I already know that there's a tremendous amount in it. But, hey, Jerry's made it this long. He seems to be doing well. So if this is his routine... I guess more power to them. So let's get to that call with the head athletic trainer because I think that's obviously the biggest thing going on with this team right now.

When I was there, DAC was throwing a little bit. It was during individual drills. You saw the setup on hard knocks. They have a net underneath the go post with three colored sections on it. And they do drills where they call out the colors and you have to quickly decide where to throw the ball. And he was not doing that because that was a little bit more full speed. But he was throwing the ball at the net at 50, 60 percent.

There was 10-yard throws. but that was it. So he's clearly still on a pitch count. He's still limited. What do you know about the current status? We're recording this on Friday afternoon, just as a heads up to people. This is going to be running on Tuesday.

But what do you know as of right now about where Dak Prescott's shoulders sits and what the actual outlook might be? Well, he apparently sent off alarms because he said he was having a second MRI the other day. He said he's going to have one when he gets back to Dallas. But from everything I know, it's just precautionary just to make sure everything's on track. if they felt like he had a setback, they wouldn't even have him doing those throws that they did the day when you were there into that net.

Because when it first happened, it was like, don't even underhand toss the ball back to the center after a snap during some like individual drills. And when he even had to do that, he threw with his left hand. It was like, don't use your right arm for anything. So even for them to allow that,

there were some time out there where he was throwing Amari Cooper. They're not doing that at all if he's feeling anything in that arm. They would just be like, let's just keep going with your. conditioning, shut it down until we get back to Texas. So the fact that he was even thrown on back-to-back days, albeit not, you know, his normal speed and all in any deep balls or anything like that, that to me was a bigger sign of a positive than hearing that he's going to have a second MRI.

I just, I don't think that that's any reason to be alarmed. I know if, you know, you're just following this via some of the talk show morning, you know, cable shows, you know, there's a reason they, you know, they want to stir stuff up because it's not interesting to say, yeah, Dax fine. you know, whatever. So I understand where there is concern from the outside. And also the side from what you hear from the team is always going to be a little bit more cautious. We saw that last year.

When camp started, Lyle Collins was working on resistance scores. Next thing you know, he's having surgery on his hip won't play at all during the season. Something similar happened with Sean Lee to start camp. Then all of a sudden we find out he has, he needs to get a hernia surgery. He's missing the first part of the season. So I understand why fans are skeptical. I just don't think this is a case right here to be skeptical about. And again, if you even watch that, you don't need to watch any train camp.

If you just watch that first part of Hard Knocks, you can see how even on that first practice, they're trying to basically protect Dak from himself because he wants to make every throw. He wants to be on every single thing. And that's how he is normally. But I think it got ramped up even more because last year was the first time that he actually missed games. And I feel like he's trying to make up for lost times. And in doing so, he probably did a little too much. It's interesting.

One of the things when you're around teams a little bit more and something. I've gotten older is just that reps are a currency during an NFL practice and the guys want them. Like they matter and there are certain players that want every single one who's getting the matters because it's always intentional. They do not hand those things out willy-nilly, especially with quarterbacks. And I think that that hard knock segment and the way that they were treating all of that was a really good window into the thought process that goes into literally every single play and why guys are getting every single snap during an NFL training camp practice.

Absolutely. I mean, that's why Dak Prescott, you know, put a, he didn't put a full field in his backyard, you know, here in Texas, but he put 50 yard field in so that even in the off season, when they aren't at the star, he can have Ciday Lamb over, he can have Dalton Schultz over. He can have Amari Cooper, Michael Gallup over there, Blake Jarwin, Z can throw to these guys because he just constantly wants to be doing it. I mean, when I started covering the team, Romo was the quarterback and Romo was already the established starter, but there were all these stories about how basically when Tony came to the Cowboys, like there was no chance he was going to be even a backup, much less a starter. And it was all this stuff he did in the offseason to work on his mechanics and to improve his mechanics and to change different things in his game. And it was like he was thrown every single day to the point where there's these stories of how like, you know, he'd be thrown

into like couch cushions and things like that in his house because he wanted to get these reps in. Then you add in there, which obviously I know you're very familiar with, all these quarterbacks nowadays are all going to these different quarterback gurus in the off season. You know, and so DAC does that too. He works with John Beck and other quarterbacks. I was going to ask who his guy is. I wasn't aware of which one he went to. Yeah, you know, Tom, House, John Beck, guys like that.

And it's to constantly be working, tweaking your game. These guys, I mean, Rommel used to be like this too. They're never like, you know what? That was a pretty good year. I'm good. Nothing needed to work on here. Like, they're always trying to add something to their game. And you see that with the best of the best in every sport.

And that's how Dak is. And so it's not a complete surprise when he has, something like this and they have to dial them back. But I can tell you, even in those couple practices after when they dialed him back and they said like, you know, you're not throwing, just him on the resistance cords. You were like, was this guy trying to make the team? I saw him doing those. It was really funny.

It's 90 degrees outside. He doesn't need to do jack shit. Everyone else is doing team. And he's just yanking on a man with a huge cord behind him. And another key part of that is more than just the actual like on the field quarterback stuff. Dak wants to be out there because Dak is the face of the team. He is the leader, and because of that, he knows that he needs to be there at all times because that's a guy that the players always look to. That's why you see in that episode of Hard Knocks when, you know, Mike McCarthy has to be like, don't you think we need to send him in and let's get this, you know, rehab and whatever treatment needs to be done started right now?

Because Dak doesn't want to go in for treatment because practice is still going on. He wants to be on the sidelines. He wants to be there because this is his team. And so that's why he didn't run right in immediately and get the MRI and immediately get, you know, his shoulders. looked at. He's like, hey, there's another hour or so at practice. I'll go get it when this is done. And again, I'm covering the Cowboys. I don't get to see the other 31 teams all the time, but I'm very confident that all 31 other starting quarterbacks aren't wired the same way Dak Prescott is. No, there's 0% chance. And I was very impressed with all of that.

And again, it's even when you're at practice, you don't see those conversations or hear those conversations, which is why Hard Knocks is so compelling. So we assume he's going to be on the field for a week one. I think that is just the kind of the going assumption with his health and where everything is at, which is a good sign, and a good thing, because I want to see this offense at full strength. Let's focus on the offense for a second, because that is a group without a lot of moving pieces, right? We know the principal actors within that offense. The main additions that they had this off season was really just offensive line depth, right? I mean, they went out and got Tyneusecchi as a potential swing tackle. They draft the Josh

ball in the fourth round. Other than that, just getting guys back. Blake Jarwin coming back. Dak Prescott coming back. And then you have that receiving core, the really the biggest difference with them is just how many much guys are moving around. Are we going to see CDLAM outside more? Just the interchangeable parts within that offense. Is there anything else within that group, then those 11, 12, 13 guys that make up the guys are going to play on that side of the ball that we're not thinking about enough because I just kind of plug and play. That's where mine is with that group. It really is. And I mean, even without hardness, just the way the Dallas Cowboys are, there just really is, it's very rare that you're like,

hey, this is a cowboy that's flying under the radar. Like, it happens, don't get me wrong, but it's very rare. And so if they don't have injuries last year, like, DAC doesn't get hurt, the offensive line stays healthy. I mean, outside of maybe Kansas City and one other team, Dallas's offense is right there with everyone else. And that is the expectation this year. I mean, they're to the point where they could probably even absorb an injury,

not a full season, but, you know, they could afford, if Zeeq went down for a couple games, you know, Tony Pollard can step in. Absolutely. Blake Jarwin goes down, Dalton Schultz can step in. Amari can't go to start the season, having CD Lamb, Michael Gallup, and then all those other weapons we just mentioned, they should still be good there. The key really to me is it's like there's going to be playmakers. Dak is very familiar with this offense. That's one of the big reasons that Kellan Moore stayed on this staff when McCarthy was hired is because they wanted to grow on what they've been building since Stack was drafted in 16.

And so to me, it's all, and I know it's boring to fans to say especially fantasy football fans, but like to me, like I don't even need to know about the health of the guys. outside of DAC in terms of skill positions. Tell me how healthy the offensive line is going to be. And really it's, and that even comes down to three guys. Like, I really feel like if you tell me that they're going to have a healthy Tyrant Smith, healthy Lylell Collins,

and healthy Zach Martin, which they didn't have last year, Lyle Collins missed the whole season, Tyrant Smith only played two games, Zach Martin missed six. Like, if you just tell me those three guys are back and ready to go, like it almost doesn't even matter that much what the other two

offensive linemen are. Like this offense is going to click. Like they'll have bumps in the road and things like that. They're not going to be the 2014 or, the 2016 offensive line, but they'll be one of the best in the league. And that'll be good enough to give DAC time to get the ball out and get all these different weapons involved. And so, yeah, there's really not anybody flying under the radar because even they're too deep are pretty much guys at those skill positions that people know because a lot of them they had to lean on last

year. But, you know, like you mentioned, it's the moving those receivers around. Because we were in a pandemic last year, it was like, hey, CD, you're not going to get the normal off season. Play in the slot, take care of that. Now, you know, the training wheels are off. CD, go out there and have a monster year. Obviously, some of that is because Amari Cooper isn't practicing right now. So those two guys have been able to move around freely because there's not one spot taken up by Amari Cooper. But even the practice that I was there, he made three plays in 20 minutes. I mean, his C.D. Lamb, in the way he goes and gets the ball, he's going to be the type of guy in training

camp that sticks out. So you can't notice who's playing well and who's playing poorly all the time. He's the type of guy, you notice. You cannot go there and watch practice and not pay attention to him because of. just those splash plays that he makes. Is there anyone else on that side of the ball that stood out to you in particular over those first couple weeks? Not really.

Nobody's on the level obviously of C.D. Lamb. I mean, the C.D. Lam thing, it even goes bigger because, okay, yeah, Marri Cooper's not out there, but he's also with Dachanat out there. He's making a lot of these plays with Ben Danucci and Garrett Gilbert. And I can just tell you this. Garrett Gilbert and Ben Danucci aren't having that same rapport with any other receivers. It's just one of those things where it's like, you know what? You kind of just put it in an area.

this guy's going to go get it. So he had nobody on that level. I would say Dalton Schultz has continued to kind of progress of where we thought, you know, he took leaps and bounds last year when Blake Jarwin went down to where you're like, whoa, Dalton Schultz can be their number one tight end. And there's not a drop off there. So I thought there was a lot of good things out of him. Their number three tight end, Sean McKeown, who was an undrafted guy last year out of Michigan,

who really was just a special teams guy last year. He flashed a couple times at camp where you're like, you know, they went and signed Jeremy Sprinkle as a veteran blocking tight end, but man, if they only keep three, they're going to have a hard time not keeping McKewn on there. So he'd be another one. And then, you know, the other thing is, like there's been some receivers like Malik Turner, who have had like some really nice practices, but you're just kind of like, where would you even fit in? Because like the top five are already pretty much set in stone because after those top three

who are going to get all the touches as long as they're healthy, after that's Noah Brown, a guy that they trust a lot, who had some good days at camp and he's just a veteran that they trust on special teams and in this, knowing this offense. and Cedric Wilson is the same exact way. So there are all of a sudden, you got your five deep set at receiver. So even when Malik Turner flashes, and he did a little bit in the preseason game, too, you're just kind of like, yeah, but is that going to get you? Like, that's not going to get you on the field if these other guys are healthy.

So no, it's really, it's the guys that we know. Those are the guys that have really the ones that kind of caught your eye in terms of what you think that they can do on Sunday. One of the other things, the last thing about the offense I want to say that jumped out. Kellen Moore, I believe earlier this week, said that, that because they had a full off season with this staff, you're not doing as much install and figuring out what your offense is going to look like

because you have a baseline that's already established. So they got to watch some other stuff that other teams were doing. And apparently they watched a lot of the play action game that the Titans had and teams like that within that tree, which is exciting to me. Because I think we talked about this on last week's show with Nate, I think the only concern about this offense outside of health is how Statica could look at times.

And if it's going to be more dynamic and they're going to see some of the play action elements that we think DAC looks really good running, that's exciting to me. If this thing can look like the 2.0 version of the offense that we've seen for the last couple years with this group, then I think we could be cooking with gas. Yeah, for sure. And that's a good point that you make, because that was, you know, with the Jason Garrett era, that was a lot of the complaints with, like, the receivers. They were doing a lot of the same stuff. There wasn't a lot of variety. The offense of 10 million stop routes to the point that Amari Cooper was changing them in the

funnel. Right. And even even last year, you know, Michael Gallup talked a little bit a week ago about how, you know, he ran the same three or four routes even last year. And now that they're using him a little bit in the slot two to kind of, you know, progress with what he's doing, you know, they're putting more on his plate so that they can move all three of those receivers around at any time. And there isn't a significant drop off. And defenses have to kind of, you know, they're going to have to be on their heels a little bit because they're not going to know where all these guys are at. Because I know just from everything I've watched with this team,

There's no doubt that Amari Cooper and C.D. Lamb can play inside and out and not have any problem with it. Gallup playing in the slot, that's something that remains to be seen because he's been mainly just an outside guy, big body receiver. So that's the thing about last year. It was just like, you know, you saw some games where you were like, okay, there's a lot of variety here and then they would dial it back some games. And you're just kind of like, is this going to be, you know, they're going to be more jet sweep. So they're going to do a lot more things where they're moving guys around, particularly pre-snap and stuff like that. Or depending on teams, are they going to. get that they're playing are they going to get more conservative and and obviously the fans hate that and i if it's not leading to wins nobody should like it so that that remains to be seen you know i mean

i don't think that kellen more has shown his full hand in camp i think he's been pretty conservative and i think that they'll be that way throughout these preseason games too you know there's stuff that he's going to be saving for the season so it just comes down to this for me like even if you aren't an expert on the exes and o's of offensive football if you can just give somebody all the weapons that they have, you should be able to draw up enough variety, regardless of what your system is, to execute on Sundays to be one of the top offenses in the NFL. And if you're not, there's some serious problems there on whatever you're doing, because there really aren't any excuses anymore.

You have a veteran offensive line, a veteran quarterback. You have veterans. Now, C.D. Lam's the young guy, but you have veteran receivers around him. You have a veteran, you have two veteran running backs. You have veteran tight ends. And now you have a play call. Obviously, there's going to be, you know, growing pains early on for Kell and, more like all that stuff's got to be out the window. Like it's it's go time now. Like if these guys are

healthy, they've got to be great from the start. So I think that the defense obviously is much more unsettled. And the one thing I noticed, I mean, twice to say, the one thing I noticed that it was really cool during practice. Dan Quinn was working with the defensive ends and I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm going to anyway. He was working with the defensive ends of Micah Parsons and they were doing sort of a pass rush stunt drill and working on their timing and their spacing. You know, If you're coming here, what's my aiming point as a blitzer? How am I trying to take up bodies as you curl around? And that may not be anything.

But watching that, just kind of get your gears turning of how much are we going to see that? How much are we going to see Micah Parsons as a blitzer? Because I think they need to manufacture a pass rush. They need to manufacture pressure. And when you have to do that, what does it look like on the back end? It's certainly not Seattle-based cover three principles. And Dan Quinn has been open about the idea that this defense is going to look a lot different. than people are expecting it to look based on his history.

What is your sense of that and the way they could deploy some of these guys as we are two weeks into camp here? Well, it's a good sign when he says stuff like that because the only way him even talking about what the cover three and things he didn't in Seattle make any sense here is if you have an Earl Thomas on the back end and you have corners like Richard Sherman. Do you not think they do?

Do they not think the Monte Casey is as good as the guys they had in Seattle a few years ago? And so no, no, no. Cam Chancellor, no Cam Chancellor's over here. So, because of that, there has to be a variety of different things they're going to do. And here's the problem is that, especially for Cowboys fans over this last decade, they're used to seeing a pass rush that is generated almost all from your front four. And it's like, if your front four can't get home, you're just not getting home.

Because Rob Marinelli wasn't a big blitzer. You didn't see a ton of blitzes last year. And so I see how fans are. And I am too, just skeptical on, okay. Are you going to really use Mike Apart? We're seeing you in practice line Mike up as a rushing off the edge and rushing on the inside. We see you moving Mikea Parsons. Is this going to happen in games?

And not only happening games, but more than like once or twice in a game. Like, is this going to be a major part of your system? And I feel like that's what Jerry Jones was trying to sell us on after the draft when they took Micah Parsons. It was not only do we want to use him as a linebacker, but we felt he was the best edge rusher or, yeah, the best edge rushing type play. that was available where they were drafting just because this is not a crazy thing to say this year's draft yeah it was a bad edge rushing draft to begin with so because of that I feel like they have to and and like the drill you talked about I've seen that with him with dan Quinn even at a little bit at the end of OTAs and then certainly you know into training camp so you're like okay

are they going to do this because if they are Michael Parsons has a chance to just have a monster year because he's never going to leave the field and he'll let it he'll legitimately have a chance to be one of their top edge rushers. He'll be up there in pressures, sacks, but then he'll also should lead the team in tackles. And he's got a nose for the ball, so they move him around. He got his hands on a lot of balls in practice, so he could be up there in interceptions too.

He is the Swiss Army knife of this defense. If he has an outstanding year like that, that's one of the paths. That's the constant thing. It's like, okay, if this defense is going to be better, how does it get there? Well, one of those paths could be Micah Parsons, being this guy that Dan Quinn is moving all around,

and he has that type of success. But to your point, I just don't think if they're not doing that, I don't think there is enough edge rush. I don't think there's enough pass rush in general on this team. Because the only way there would be without Parsons is if DeMarcus Lawrence has a career year and Randy Gregory has the type of year that they were hoping

that they would get when they draft him in 2015 in the second round. Because I do... 2015, Jesus. I cannot believe it was that long ago. I know. But I do think that they can get that type of production from those two guys but that's asking a lot because behind them, there's a drop off there. You're basically going to, you know, Terrell Basham and guys like that.

You know, and in the middle, you're talking about Brent Urban, Carlos Watkins, Neville Gallamore. Like, it's not, you don't have a proven pass rusher up the middle either. So how do you combat that? I feel like you, not only do you have to bring Mike on some blitzes, you're going to probably have to bring Jalen Smith too when he's out on the field. And I also think just tons of stunts and weird alignments. And I think that's what you have to go to. And you look at this team in the way that they're built,

and even if you think about how Michael Parsons could be using as an edge rusher. Let's say on third down, your four guys lined up on the line of scrimmage are Demarchus Lawrence, Neville Gallimore, Randy Gregory, and Michael Parsons in some variety and in some fashion. You can move Lawrence inside or whatever you want to do. And I think that's indicative of just a larger conversation about the league. Something that's come up over and over again in the last few weeks

as I've been on the road is how many personnel groupings the Rams used. We're going to talk so much about two high safeties in the Fangio Staley system. Everyone keeps bringing up how many different combinations of players they've thrown out there. So I would encourage people who are looking at teams before the season, and I've had to remind myself of this. Don't look at the 11 starters on a defense. Don't look at who's going to be on the field at one time.

How many different types of combinations can you play? I think that depth at places like safety and corner are so important in the way the league works right now because you want to stay unpredictable and have some variety. And if you look at the Cowboys linebackers, I think they're going to unleash those guys in 10 different ways. We're going to see every combination of those players in some form or fashion because I think that's the way the league is going. It's very popular here in Dallas and probably any Cowboy fan anywhere to really just hate

on Mike Nolan because things were such a disaster last year with their defense. But I go back to this one quote that he had. that I just, it was just, it's like one of the best quotes ever, and I'll just paraphrase it and shorten it up, but it was like a lengthy quote. And I just, it really hit home for me and that what they were, you know, they were very, it was very basic the things that they were doing under Rod Baronelli. It worked sometimes, but there wasn't a lot of variation. And a lot of people look back on it as like, yeah, it worked during the regular season. Then you get in the playoffs, you play better quarterbacks. It's not going to work every week when these guys know. And that's what Mike Nolan was trying to get across is that like when we move to this

defense, we're trying to be more multiple because if you're trying to win in January and February and you're going against the Aaron Rogers, the Tom Brady's, and at the time he said, Drew Breeze, like, if you don't have something that you can mix it up with, you know, you're bringing a knife to a gun fight because these guys are going to, if they know what you're going to do, these guys have seen everything. They're going to pick you apart. And so it goes to your point. And I agree with you in that sense because like a guy, when you talk about the Cowboys linebackers, a perfect fit for what you're talking about is Keanu O'Neill. That's a guy that they didn't have in previous years.

Obviously, Dan Quinn is very familiar with him. He was drafted as a safety, but Dan Quinn even jokes, he was like, yeah, but even the way we were using him in Atlanta was more, we used them in a linebacker type of way even as a safety. And so you already see, like, in third down situations, passing situations, more Keanu Neals out there. You talk about safety. Right now, they're playing tomorrow.

They're starting safeties. I feel I'm pretty confident it'll be Demonte KZ and Donovan Wilson. But if you're going against a certain team that might be. stronger at tight end than at receiver. I see you getting a lot more playing time from Jay Ron Curse because he's just a bigger guy. He's going to match up better against your safety, I mean, as a safety against your bigger tight ends, even your bigger wide receiver.

So they have more of a variety there. Again, they don't have the Earl Thomas that you're just like, yeah, just leave him out there. He'll make plays. Like, they're going to have to do it in a variety of ways. So, yeah, to your point, I certainly see that in practice. And Dan Quinn has talked about that. But because you're not really seeing them, like these practices like you see,

just like every team. They're not really going like during a game. And so we need to see it in a game. But that is the one thing. If you're a Cowboys fan listening to this, that's the one thing that you should be excited about is this defense does appear that it's going to have a lot of variety to it. And that hasn't been the case very much over the last decade. Last question I'll ask you. So obviously, Trayvon Diggs is on one side. I think he's going to play the right side of the defense. I'm excited about him. He was on the show we talked about with guys who could break through this year. I think he was very much better in the second half of last season. I think it's a promising trajectory for him. Is there hope that Kelvin Joseph, their second round pick, can end up becoming the guy on the left side, or is that a little bit too far off? No, no, no.

I think he could for sure. I think it might be asking a little too much to roll him out there week one against Tom Brady as the starting left corner. And Mike Evans and Chris Godwin and Antonio Brown. I think that just the experience and the team you're going against the defending Super Bowl champs and how loaded they are on offense lends itself to that's probably a good bet that Anthony Brown's out there starting at that spot. And Anthony Brown is solid, and I can see him having that job for a while.

But I think ultimately Calvin Joseph just he has a higher upside. You know, it's kind of like with Trayvon Diggs. Like, did Trayvon Diggs give up big plays last year? Yeah, absolutely he did. He was a rookie playing corner in the NFL. But he also made more big plays than really anybody on that defense, at least in the secondary. He just, he's got a knack for getting his hands on the ball. And in a way, I almost see that with Micah Parsons, too.

like Michael Parsons is going to make mistakes because he's a rookie and he's kind of like a Tasmanian devil out there. But he's also a guy that is going to make a ton of plays and he's always going to be around the ball. And so, you know, because of that, I think that Calvin Joseph gives you a little bit more of that. So I think by the end of the year, I think that's where you're at. It's Calvin Joseph and Trayvon Diggs. And then in the slot, Anthony Brown works in there. Maurice Kennedy, who's been one of their, you know, bright spots in training camp and then Jordan Lewis. And so if they say healthy at corner, I think they're going to be actually pretty good at corner.

And what will be funny about that and it'll be interesting to monitor this season is what does Patrick Sertan do? What does J.C. Horn do? Because I just got this feeling, and I know this is real early, but I got this feeling that Cowboys might have lucked in to Micah Parsons and really lucked into like a star player on this team for the second consecutive year. There was never a plan to draft CD Lamb. Kind of just fell in their lap. There was never a plan to draft Micah Parsons, really even at 10 when both those corners went off the board. If they loved Micah Parsons at 10 when those corners went off the board, they would have just taken Micah Parsons right there. They trade back two spots, get an additional third round pick, and they might have just ended up with the guy who was like perfect for their defense.

And you look at those two guys in Parsons and C.D. Lam and you're like, this could be like the two future pieces. Obviously, it's Dak Prescott, but this could be the future of this organization. And neither of them, 15 minutes before the draft started, were anywhere near their plan. of what they were going to do with either of those picks. Your needs are often different tomorrow than they were yesterday. Always a truism in the NFL. Thank you very much for the time, my friend. Always appreciate it.

Always get a chat with you. I hope you enjoy being home. We'll talk to you soon. Absolutely, Robert. Thanks for having me on. All right, guys, that's all we got today. Thank you so much to Lindsay. Thank you so much to John for stopping by to chat about the Cowboys.

We'll be back tomorrow with Nate talking about the play callers we're most intrigued by heading into the 2021 season. Until then, please rate and review the podcast. on your podcast platform of choice. If you have not done that already, I would sincerely appreciate it. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic. The Athletic.com slash football show.

As Lindsay mentioned today, so much good stuff on The Athletic right now. Lindsay's 40 under 40 highlights a lot of important personalities in the league. Jordan Roderick's piece about Aaron Donald and watching film with Sean McVeigh to highlight what he is as a player for our top 100 players of all time at the Athletic. Highly recommend that as well.

So please go check that out. We'll be back tomorrow with Nate. Until then, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.