The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Teams stuck in the middle with Bill Barnwell & a Chargers team visit with Daniel Popper

Episode Date: August 11, 2021

Robert Mays sits down with ESPN’s Bill Barnwell to discuss the teams stuck in the middle of the NFL power rankings. They present six teams, how they got in this position and why it’s difficult to see their path to the top. Plus, The Athletic’s Chargers reporter Daniel Popper joins the show to talk Brandon Staley’s first year on the job, expectations for the team in Justin Herbert’s second season and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Really excited about today's show. Our Chargers writer, Daniel Popper, is going to be joining me a little bit later. He and I chat yesterday about just the state of this team, which obviously has a lot of talent, a lot of expectations in year one of Brandon Staley, really enjoyed our chat. Before we get to that, though, I'm very excited to welcome my good friend ESPN's Bill Barnwell. Barnwell, how you doing, buddy?

I'm good, Mays. Can you explain what the topic of our show today is going to be? I absolutely can. So every year when I was at the Ringer, I used to do a full 32-te-team power rankings. And I actually really enjoyed it. It was a chance to really dig into every team and think about the landscape of the league. My job has shifted a little bit. Sheal actually did something very similar to that to what I used to do last week.

If people have not checked out, Shield's treatise on the NFL, I highly encourage that you do it. And I always went through the process. and the hardest part every single time without fail was figuring out how to write about the teams from like 18 through 24 in the power rankings. It wasn't the teams at the bottom because the teams at the bottom were always interesting because they were terrible or they were rebuilding. It wasn't hard to come up with ideas for that. But the teams really stuck in the middle,

the teams that didn't seem to be that interesting or engaging but also didn't have a path to contention, I always had such a hard time writing about that. them. And I feel like we avoid them because of that. So I wanted to spend an entire show talking about those teams, the ones that are essentially stuck right there in the back half of the middle of the league without a clear path out. And when I was thinking about it, I said, who would make something that doesn't seem inherently interesting, interesting? And that's how I landed on wanting to do this with you. Can I tell you how I perceive this to be pitched.

Sure. I want to do a show, this is a direct quote from a Robert May's text message, I want to do a show about the teams mired in the middle of the league and how they can, can't get out, and I thought you'd be great on that, which sounds like, let me go to an expert on someone who is mired in mediocrity and can't get out. So false. Not going anywhere. Someone who is just trapped in a role.

No chance of getting any higher than he is. That's my friend Bill Barnwell. That is so false. as our good friend Chris Brough, who now works with me and used to work with you, likes to say it's about making the topics interesting because you can make them interesting. And that's why I always admire what you do, because you can pick anything, even if it's something that doesn't seem like I'd want to read 2,000, 3,000 words on it. And I do. By the end, I'm like, I'm so glad I did this.

And that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you, because I'm genuinely interested in how you view some of these teams and what their path out of this might be. So when I was starting this exercise, the first, the team I had, in mind. One of the reasons I wanted to do this was to talk about the Raiders because I just think they epitomize this kind of thinking. And there's been so much shuffling over the last couple years where we've called it whack-a-mole on this show where they fix one problem with another problem pops up because

they're just seems like they're chasing something different every off-season. So if you had to articulate how the Raiders got to this place, how they got to this middle ground. How would you try to describe it? Hmm. Well, they hired a coach who was famous and was a good coach once upon a time, but mostly hired him because he was familiar and then rebuilt the entire franchise in his image. And that's fine. Like, there are worse decisions you could make when you're hiring a coach, I suppose. But, you know, you look at what they've gotten from the big trades they've made, right? Yeah.

Like that they've gotten from the Kahlil Mack trade and the Amari Cooper trade. Because when they made those trades. Those table centers that were supposed to set them up. They were getting rid of superstars. And they landed meaningful returns. Like I don't think, I remember the Kulomack trade won the like some sort of analytics award at the Sloan conference for being a great trade. Even after Mack had that awesome first season, the Amari Cooper trade. I went back and read about this a couple weeks ago.

Like everyone loved the Amari Cooper trade for the Raiders at the time. I mean, it was like, oh, wow, we got a first round pick for this. guy who's been struggling for the past year plus. The returns from those trades just have not been up to expectation. And they've made a ton of free agent signings. And so many of the players they've brought in, especially on the defensive side of the ball, have been worse the moment they got to Oakland or now Las Vegas than they were in their old spots. And some of that is self-inflicted. I think the Lamarcus Joyner example is really instructive here. A guy who was kind of bouncing around with the Rams played different roles was versatile, had skills, but never landed on something.

Wade Phillips shows up, says, hey, you're going to be a free safety now, and that's it. That's all you're going to do. Turns into a pro bowler. The Raiders signed him to a deal in free agency. They move him to slot corner and don't move him back to free safety. And guess what? He doesn't play well. Guess where he's playing this year with the Jets.

Yeah, he's probably going to be good because it's a spot. smart thing to put the players in the positions where they're actually good and qualified to play. And I think when it comes down to the Raiders, like the big picture thing here is coming back to the coaching, like this seems like the most obvious example of a situation where, again, especially on the defensive side of the ball, the development is just not there. I mean, guys who are being drafted are not living up to their draft expectations, guys who are being assigned as free agents are not living up to free agent expectations. And I know, of course, if you're a Raiders fan, you're saying, okay, that was Paul Gunther. And, you know, Gus Bradley is going to fix this. And maybe he will. But I think in the long run, you have this team that is just, like you said, playing

whack and wool, trying to fill holes. And then because they're not doing a good job of actually getting the most out of those players, they're not actually filling those holes. So I agree with all of that. And I think there's a lot of good points in there. If you want to look at a specific instance to me that really jumps out on top of the drafting, Because this starts with the drafting. We had a long conversation about this, I believe,

when we were talking about the best and worst drafting teams of the last five years. When you look at that 2018 draft, when they really needed to make the most of those picks, or 2019 draft, I guess. That was the draft after the MAC trade, after the Cooper trade. They really needed that collection of guys. Farrell, Jonathan Abram, Josh Jacobs, that was the centerpiece of what was going to be the Gruden era.

I think that was almost doomed from the start, based on the archetypes of players that they chose. But even with that, those guys have not lived up to expectation. So I think that's a starting point. But even if we go further than that, I think the Gus Bradley for Paul Gunther swap and the failure to develop defensive players are all combined in the Damon Arnett situation

of what's going on right now. You draft him in the first round last season, seen as possibly a reach at the time, which many of their picks have been, but whatever. Sure. You'd hope that he's better in year two. Instead, you go out and sign cases. Heyward both we have been we've been Casey Hayward fans for a long time you and I together but you go sign Casey Hayward 30 something year old Casey Hayward and right now he's starting over your first

round pick from last year because he fits the defensive system that you have brought in to help stop the bleeding that to me is a problem in approach that to me is exactly how you land as a mediocre team because that's a temporary solution that doesn't bode well for you in the long term. Of course. And I think that's fine if you're doing that at one spot. Yeah. But like how many spots is that going to happen with the readers or see? Where we're going to have players who are disenfranchised because of the change they made.

And yes, they had to change. They had the change of its coordinator. Gunther was not working out. But you didn't have to go to get Gus Bradley. I mean, I've said this before. like if any team in the NFL was crying out for somebody to sign Wade Phillips to be the defensive coordinator, was it not the Las Vegas Raiders? It might have been.

I mean, I just think that Gus Bradley is the perfect choice for when you want competency, but it's not going to take you as far as you want to go. Because of Bradley is, I think he's a fine defensive coach. But I think they get right now, even with all the signings that they've made and hiring Gus Bradley, what's the best hope for them to be the 20th best defense in the league? But if they're the 20th best defense in the league, which is not out of the range of possibilities, they might be a playoff team. Like I think we have...

See, I don't think that's true. You don't think that's true with the 14 team playoff? Because I think the offense is going to be worse. Why will the offense be worse? That's my problem. Okay. I think the offensive line is going to be a little bit worse. There aren't that many reasons for me to believe the offense is going to be better than it was last year or even the year before.

I mean, this is a pretty good offense last year, right? They were ninth in passing DVOA. They were 11th in dropback EPA. Like that is where they've hung out over the last two years. They've been a borderline top 10 passing team because in so many ways, it's a good offense. Like some of the things they do are really creative. It's well designed. The way they use Darren Waller on some of those three by one sets and some of the choice routes they run with him and some of the wrinkles they have off their staple stuff and Carr is playing pretty well.

But that's kind of the problem is that. that level of offensive competency, that's why they're in the middle and not at the back end. But I just don't know what the path out is because I think if the offense takes a slight step back and the defense takes a slight step forward, you're kind of just where you were a year ago. And that's exactly why I wanted to lead off the show with this team.

Because that's kind of what I think they are. There's really no path out because every one step forward in one area leads to one step back in another. I mean, think about what happened to this team in what was week, what was week 16, right, last year where they played the Dolphins. And they were basically in position where if they win, they are in good shape to make it to the postseason. That granted, they were not going to make a long postseason run, but they were at least going to be in the playoffs,

which was a certain, certainly a goal for this football team. They blow a lead twice, three times in the fourth quarter. And I mean, they play at the end of the fourth quarter, the famous Ryan Fitzpatrick bomb play, the bomb that was a 34-year pass to Mac Collins. who I didn't even remember was on the dolphins last year. He got a lot of snaps when I was there at camp because Will Fuller and Devante Parker weren't playing. So I got a lot of my Collins time. I like Matt Collins.

I liked him coming out of school. I will say that's the play that brings up the problems for me because you have Arden Key, who was a guy who they expected to be a rotation player on defense committee. No longer. Terrific roughing the passer on Ryan Fitzpatrick. And Damon Arnett, the guy we just talked about, they were playing Tampa 2, and Ryan Hurth Patrick actually went on ESPN Daly and said, oh, I knew they were going to play Tampa 2 in that situation. Damon Arnett doesn't sink in an obvious situation where there's like 30 seconds left, and you have to avoid the deep ball. He's playing flat corner and not running with a guy running past him. And you end up with this incredible completion.

You blow your season because of a just obvious defensive mistake, mental breakdown in multiple levels. And as good as the offense was, as good as they were, as much as they were able to put themselves in situations to possibly make the postseason, that wasn't enough. But if you're competent on defense, if you just don't blow that coverage, you win that game. I don't know if they have that ceiling to be a team that's going to consistently beat the Chiefs, but we saw them last year. They won a shoot out with the Chiefs. And I think, you know, you have to hope that even if the offensive line is worse, you still have solidity at tackle and you have Waller. and you're hoping that Henry Ruggs takes a big step forward in his second season. But then again, we've seen with so many of their draft picks,

they just don't develop into the players we're expecting. On offense, it's been a little bit more promising. I have more faith in him developing than what we've gotten out of the defensive players so far. How do you think we can get more from Henry Ruggs in year two? Is there something specifically you'd want to see? Because when I was trying to go through the reasons that the offense could be as good or better than it was last season, that was the one name that kept popping. up. Can we get more out of him? I mean, he got targeted 43 times last year. Like, yes.

He was really a decoy. I mean, he was like a shiny object decoy last year. Right. So I would say don't use the guy who was terrifying at Alabama as the shiny decoy. Like, use him, like, give him some of the routes that Nelson Aguilar was running last year. Like, like, have him be a viable, deep threat. And some of that was injury last year. Like, he wasn't 100%. It got hurt. And hopefully you're hoping he's healthy in year two. But like, you know, he needs to be a much bigger part of the offense. He needs to be a guy who is an actual significant target guy. And whether that's 100 targets, whether it's 120, whether it's 80, I can't say. But I mean, you know, you can build a functional offense around Waller, Rugs, John Brown, maybe Ryan Edwards. And then,

of course, Hunter Renfro, who was going to have 80 targets a year until he's 47 years old. They know exactly how to use him. It works that well, which, again, speaks to the quality of this offensive coaching staff. I think they do a really good job. So I want to talk about Carr for a second because he's been maligned. I don't know if he's been much maligned, but there have been some Derek Carr punchlines from people here over the past few years. And I think Derek Carr is a pretty good quarterback. But if you look at it, Derek Carr is a $22 million cap hit in 2021.

That's not astronomical. especially when you consider what quarterbacks are making now. And I know this is a little bit misleading because some guys have restructured, but it's still eighth among quarterbacks for this season. It's not a crazy overpay, but it's still the sticker price for a starting quarterback. It's half, or it's twice what Baker Mayfield will make, for example. I think that that's a consistent theme with some of these teams, and it's definitely one with the team we'll get to next.

Sometimes you have that quarterback that you're paying as a full-time veteran on a second or third deal that is just good enough to keep you right outside the tier of elite offenses, but is not good enough to break through with. And then you start talking yourself into why this guy is worth keeping around and why this construction of the team is worth sticking with. And it just keeps on going. You keep on getting back into that cycle. It feels like that is a theme with some of these teams here.

I agree. But I think what happens with the Raiders is that you have these, And I'm sure I do this too. People who watch the Raiders who look at the Raiders and say, okay, this team is stuck in a rut. And when you're stuck in a rut, the first thing you think to do is, hey, let's make a change of quarterback. Let's get rid of this quarterback who's making a lot of money who's not pushing this team into the postseason on his own every year. And like, like you said, Derek Carr is not the problem with this football team. Even though he is, like you said, eighth in Capit, he's been a low-end top 10, top 12 quarterback.

That's kind of where he belongs, right? Like, Tom Brady would be higher if he hadn't restructured. There are a bunch of guys like that. So he's probably like 11th truly. Right. And that's kind of where he belongs. That's fine. That's totally fine.

And I think like when we're evaluating the problems with this football team, like the fact that you have a quarterback who's making about what he deserves to make is not the issue here. The problem is that you have a lot of guys who are either making a lot more money than their production or you have players who are not living up to expectations who have been drafted, where you can't get rid of them just because their first and second round picks and you're only a year or two into their careers at this point. So I don't think Carr is the problem, but I wonder if Carr is going to be the solution to try and get out of those problems. But then I think at the end of the day, like, this is the next to last year of his deal, right? Yeah, and he's on a totally reasonable contract to get next year.

But like, if the Raiders said tomorrow, hey, we're going to trade Derek Carr, what do you think they would get for him? I think a lot. You think a lot. Yes, because I think that there, we'll talk about some of these teams as we get a little bit further because I think these teams are kind of in two camps. I think one of them is the team with the expensive but not super expensive quarterback that is fine but isn't one of the guys and maybe that's holding the back a tiny bit. And then the other group of these teams is the team that is going to be spinning the

quarterback wheel next spring. And I think a lot of those teams that are going to be spinning that wheel would be interested in a guy like Derek Carr. One of those teams is in their division. They wouldn't trade them to Denver. But imagine this Denver team right now with Derek Carr. That team's pretty damn good. Hmm.

I mean, maybe. Yeah, I can see why you would say that. I don't know that they're getting like the Matthew Stafford return for Derek Carr. No, but let's say they get all first round pick for Derek Carr. Do you think that's crazy? I'd be surprised. I wouldn't be like, oh, my God. that's the worst decision any teams ever made, but I would still be a little surprised.

I don't know, man. The Colts gave up a second and a third for Carson Wentz. The Darnold got a future second round pick based on how badly he had played over the last couple years. I think these teams that need quarterbacks are typically willing to pay a premium to go get one. Did you ever think in a million years Matthew Stafford would go for two firsts? That's, I think, the example you brought up a minute ago of like a team kind of getting stuck in a rut with a guy and say, okay, we have to make a change and then kind of making that, making that move. But the lions weren't the ones who decided to make that move. The ramps are the ones who decided to overpay for Matthew Stafford. I don't know if people perceive Carr to be in the same tier,

to, of course, use Mike Sandow's quarterback tiers term as Stafford. Maybe they do. But I think he, whether it's publicly or privately, even though people acknowledge that he's good, there's still that that's sort of that handshaking of like, okay, well, he's never going to be a guy that's going to lead you to a deep playoff run. And maybe he could with a better defense. All right. So how do the Raiders get out of this? Is it as simple as the offense stays about where it is, maybe takes a small step forward despite the offensive line changes just because guys like rugs take a step and the defense is merely a little bit below average? Is that to you how they do it in 2021? I think Gus makes the defense

league average or better, which is not out of the question. I mean, there's definitely talent and high picks here. I think that can happen. If Morigma is good from the start, like if he's just a piece they really needed on the back end, because while Corner has been a rotating cast, safety has also been a wasteland for them. Oh, yeah. So if they have a stabilizing force back there as that center fielder and that defense, plus all the changes they made up front, I don't think 16th is out of the realm of possibility for this team.

No, I don't think so either. all right let's get to a team that I think is in a somewhat similar position with the quarterback and that's the Minnesota Vikings right Kirk Cousins is making 31 million dollars this year which is the second highest cap hit in the entire NFL 16.55% of the 2021 cap for Kirk Cousins. And I think even if Kirk Couss and it's really similar to me because if you look at the numbers, Kirk Cousins has been right in the same range as Derek Carr. That offense has been pretty efficient. They hover right there between like 9 and 11 and a lot of passing efficiency numbers. And you go and you look at the stats at the end of the year.

You're like, oh, man, Kirk Cousins had a pretty good season. Like they can really do some stuff. And then you start this bargaining process of, oh, man, the offense is right there. Like, we make the O line a little bit better. The defense gets a little bit healthier. They're very similar to me in just kind of the tone of the conversation around the two rosters. I don't know if you feel that way. I mean, the big difference is that the Raiders defense has been a disaster for several years.

Yeah, there's nothing to fall back on, at least with the Vikings, you have some history. Shilkapadia, your colleague, my friend, our friend, he's your friend as well, had the Vikings as his number one defense in the NFL heading into 2021 recently on The Athletic. That really? Yeah. How do you feel about that? I do not agree. Have you considered reading Theathletic.com? It's an excellent website.

I'll let you know, Barnwell, I've not done a lot of reading of anything here over the last 10 days. I've been in the car for five hours a day. I've been getting places at 10 p.m. and going to practice at 8 a.m. and then repeating the cycle. So I have a lot of preseason prepping to do after I am stationary in Chicago a week from now. I would say that that was a surprise to me. I think you could make a case that they will be in the top 10, maybe even around the top five.

But that is, I have some questions about their cornerbacks. And maybe Patrick Peterson is that dude again. And if he is, that's great. But that's a team that is really dependent on their stars. And I think that's also true on the offensive side of the ball. I mean, this is a team that because of the contracts they've handed out, because of the decisions they've made in terms of how they want to structure their roster, with cousins being the most significant one of the bunch,

they're locked into a team where their stars have to be healthy and have to be productive. when we saw last year when Daniel Hunter missed the entire season, they had absolutely positively no pass rush, and it sunk their defense. And you just have to have those guys play at a high level. And I have more faith in Mike Zimmer getting those guys to play at a high level. But this roster construction is not one I love. And it can work out, but typically it can be very high risk, high reward. Yeah, I agree with you.

And I think if you just look at the play, players, the names are familiar, but they're all four years older than they were the last time this defense was like truly, truly elite. Yeah, this is like if you loaded up like a Madden 17 save and you were like, oh, cool, I built this really awesome team. Unfortunately, Patrick Peterson is not the guy from 2017 anymore. So the Patrick Peterson argument to me is just such a different type of defense, right? If you look at the numbers, the Cardinals played man coverage at the third highest rate in the NFL last season,

they were a man-heavy team. and Patrick Peterson is close to my age at this point. The Vikings ran two high coverages at the third highest rate in the NFL last year. You're essentially flipping the defensive schemes that he's going to play in. So you'd hope that playing in a much more man, or excuse me, zone heavy scheme with a lot of help, you'd get a different version of Patrick Peterson. But then you also, I mean, Prashadry one's on the other side now after they released Jeff Gladney. Who's going to be in the slot?

It's a Cam Dantzler and McKenzie Alexander. Who's going to be opposite of Daniel Hunter? their defensive line intrigues me. I just think that with Tomlinson and Pierce, they're going to be able to control a lot of bodies and push a lot of people around. They brought in Carl Scott, who was the secondary coach for Alabama,

which I'm curious that they fold in some of those types of concepts where they're stealing back gaps in the front. There are interesting elements of this defense to me, but I think that makes them like a borderline top 10 defense if things go well, not the best defense in the NFL. I mean, you know, I wonder if they change her defense. I wonder if they are more of a man defense this year than they were a year ago because they have invested a bunch, at least in free agency, in adding talented cornerback. I mean, we know Mike Simmer's philosophy going back to Cincinnati was we're going to invest a frankly shocking number of first and second round picks in cornerbacks, develop those guys and have guys who know our system who we can rely upon.

And the fact that they're going to be starting Patrick Peterson and Bashad Breel in a corner tells you how that's worked out over the past few. years in Minnesota. They've had to let some guys leave. Of course, Gladney is an off-field issue. Guys like Trey Waynes got massive offers and didn't develop into the guys that the Vikings were hoping anyway. God, it's so weird to look at that where you think about Hughes, Gladney, Waynes, I mean, just all of the first-round picks and all of the resources they put into this team and none of those guys are left.

Right. It's a little like Tennessee where it's like, you know, you can still have a good roster if you miss on your first-round picks or your first-round picks end up least. leaving, but you'd rather have those guys there. And I mean, they've had to spend money to kind of patch up these holes. And that leaves them pretty thin with depth around this roster. Like, you know, yes, if they lose Adam Thielen, hey, you have Justin Jefferson, great. The depth chart behind those guys, though, is Chad Beebe, KJ. Osborne, D.D. Westbrook,

and I have to say his name on this podcast, and Mir Smith-R-Smartreth. I know you do. I was going to say. What are you going to do here? Amir Smith-Marset. And like, I understand we have a friend in Nate Tice, who is very excited about Amir Smith-Marset. I would be a little concerned if we lose one of those guys. And that's a position where they're pretty deep at wide receiver in terms of their top two talent.

You know, like, they're just in such a thin spot. And they've made some additions over the course of the last couple months when guys have been looking for one-year deals that I liked. But I do think this is a team that just, you know, they had a plan several years ago. and that plan was working. And in part because of the Cousins deal and in part because of the decisions they've made to kind of lock up their core guys, they're just not as talent terms of responsibility, just trying to get by. And I think that there is a scenario for 2021 where Peterson's great and Breland's great and Hunter's healthy and back to his old self and cousins gets, you know, plexiglassed up during practice weeks and it's great on the field.

And they're a super efficient play action offense and it all works. And they're like a 14 and 3 team. But history tells us relying on so many of your stars stay healthy and play at a high level is just not a good way to win 12 football games. I think you can track the bargaining and rationalization process in each of the last few years. I understand it each time it's happened. I remember talking to Rick Spielman about this in the moment after they signed cousins. And they have that 2017 season. And that team was really good.

I mean, that team was really, really good. They ran into a buzzsaw in Philadelphia, but that was arguably the best defense in football that season, and their offense was excellent. Some of it was unsustainable. I mean, it was Case Keenham running around and chucking the ball around, but that team was a legitimate title contender. And in their minds, they thought, okay,

we have earmarked this money for Teddy Bridgewater, where it's a full-scale quarterback extension. That no longer is going to happen. We have this money, though. What if we spent it on Kirk Cousins, who we truly believe, is a rare opportunity in free agency. He is the type of quarterback that does not come around very often.

So in their minds, they were dropping a quarterback who is a level above into that 2017 roster that was on the border of a Super Bowl that was on the precipice. That's not how it ended up working out. We know that now. And then now you fast forward a couple years. And I think it's not the same process, but it's kind of similar. The tone is similar.

You have this team that was awful on defense last year and we expect to be better. And then you look at the offense. the offensive line should be improved, right? They spend a first round pick on Christian Derisaw. You hope that Wyatt Davis will come in as a third round pick and maybe push and get a starting job. Then all of this stuff starts to fall apart, though. Derisaw has barely been practicing because of injury. I think Mike Zimmer used the term one step forward, two steps back earlier this week.

Wyatt Davis is behind Dakota Dozier at right guard. Their offensive line coach bailed a month before the season because he refused to get vaccinated. So now he is some senior advisor. and they have a first-year offensive coordinator instead of Gary Kubiak last year and Kevin Stefanski the year before that. So I just think it's so much more fragile than Vikings fans would probably like to believe at this stage.

And I think that rationalization requires a couple more leaps of faith than it might have seemed at first glance. Yeah, I think so. But I still have more faith in them having a 90th percentile season than I do about the ratings. I think that's fair because I think that their stars are better. And I think that you have them on both sides of the ball. Thielen and Jefferson are arguably the best wide receiver tandem in the entire NFL when those guys are healthy.

And I do think Kirk Cousins is pretty good. For all the Kirk Cousins jokes we can crack, he's been pretty good. So I do have more faith than them. But I also think that there still isn't a clear path for them to be a contender to me. Because if you look at it a year from now, they've got $3 million in cap space next year. Kirk Cousins is set to make $45 million. Harrison Smith and Brian O'Neill are set to be free agents. I just don't know where this team goes.

I have more faith than them having a 90th percentile season than the Raiders, but I just don't know how they break through. I don't know what that final step looks like for this team. Yeah, I mean, and to be clear, like, I have no issue with them signing Kirk Cousins the first time around. Like, I think the second contract, pretty bad. The first contract I have no issue with. I think it was the right decision for them at the time. I think they needed to give a second contract that gave them a little more flexibility.

And they're locked in. Like, there's not, you know, in terms of the cap situation, it's not like they have a lot of runway to do much with the cousins deal next year. His cap hit is, and I understand that the cap is always the most fun thing. His cap hit for next year maze. Do you know what it is? It's $45 million. $45 million U.S. and that's his dead money hit.

If they cut him, it's $45 million in dead money, so they save nothing. It's brutal. I mean, it's a really tough spot. And this is a team that was about to trade up for Justin Fields. Like, it's not a fun situation to be in. Like, there is, I think they have more 90th percentile outcome possibilities than the Raiders do. There's also like a 10% chance, or there's a 10% to outcome for this team, where like Zimmer's gone next year.

Like they're like the Eagles. Oh, I don't, I don't think that that's that far off. I absolutely think that's a possibility. That is absolutely one of the possibilities for the Vikings after this season. So let's get to the team that drafted Justin Fields. Because I don't, I'm wondering, do you think they should be mentioned in this group? Because of what Fields represents as a path out of it. Because if you, if we were doing this exercise a year ago,

or six months ago, they would be the perfect team to mention because there was no clear path out of this. Now you have this quarterback that potentially gives you just a new version of the franchise, but I don't know what else has to happen. I guess let's do this. What to you is a successful season for the 2021 Chicago Bears? Justin Fields looks great and doesn't die. I think that's it, right?

Behind the league's 31st ranked offensive line, according to our friend Brandon Thorne, who just drank the offensive lines. And that was probably before Tevin Jenkins was sitting out with a back injury, which is giving me some serious Chris Williams flashbacks that I am not enjoying, by the way. Who is the current starter for the Bears of left tackle? There are so many different options. I mean, I think that the thought was that Larry Borum, their fifth round pick, would get some snaps there with those guys hurt. He's now hurt. So this guy named Arlington Hambright is getting some run with the first team earlier this week. It's not a good situation.

I don't love having all of these questions about the offensive line heading into a season where the only thing that matters is the health and success of the quarterback you spent a ton to acquire. Arlington Hambright. It's amazing. It's incredible game. I apologize to the Hambright family. But it's a great name. I love it. He kind of feels like he would be a character Daniel Craig would interrogate in Knives Out 2.

He might be in Knives Out 2. Everyone else is at this point. That's true. And I mean like the the vibes this team gives me, the team this reminds me of, and this is not going to be a pleasant thing, May, so you may want to take a second. It's the tech. It's the Deshawn Watson first year Texans. And that team was like nine and seven, three years in a row. were in a very similar spot to the bears right now where they were competitive. They were a team that was, you know, had some very impressive talent, especially on the defensive side of the ball. But then when it went south, it went south. And they had to make significant changes and

continued basically selling out to try and build around that quarterback. And then when the bottom fell out, the bottom fell out in spectacular fashion. With the bears now, like, we've, seen the impact of the moves they've made over the past few years, right? Like they traded a bunch of picks for Kilomac and that move got them a great player, but cost them in terms of getting cheap talent. And they've traded up repeatedly in the draft. Exactly. That wasn't the only draft pick that they traded away.

Right. And like they traded up repeatedly in the draft for a guy who, and Ryan Pace, who leaving the player we're not going to talk about aside is generally a pretty good drafter. like, you know, the Darnal Mooney's and the Eddie Jackson's.

Right. I mean, there's so many of those guys. There are a lot of examples. Right. And so then now you have a cap situation that's been messed up. They had to cut Kyle Fuller because Alan Robinson signed the franchise tag, maybe unexpectedly. They weren't able to trade a Keem Hicks who has been hurt the past couple of years.

Like, they have been locked into a team that is in this spot. And I could see from their perspective, okay, if we trade for, Justin Fields. We give up more first-time picks in the future, but we trade for Justin Fields, and we make that move. We have enough of that core left that we can, you know, get a sparked quarterback, and that will flip us forward. But more often than not, like, when you have the problems elsewhere on this roster, like Justin Fields is not going to fix their cornerback situation. He's not going to fix the offensive line. He's not going to fix their receiving core that is counting on Jordan O'Moonie to be really good, especially if Alan Robinson does get hurt.

You know, and I just think that at the end of the day, like, that could happen. But the more likely scenario was that Fields is great or Fields is really impressive and really exciting, and the team around him just collapses because they're not up to the standard. That's my concern. And I think obviously the number one thing that's important here is that Fields is good. It's nothing else matters to a certain extent. That is all that matters for this year is that he looks good when he gets in there and then we move forward. but what the moving forward looks like,

I just don't know. Because if you look at this team coming into next year, they have $36 million or so in cap space if you look at it based on a $208 million cap, okay? They can make some cuts. Like Robert Quinn can finally go, but it's going to be $9 million in dead money. Don't get me started.

They're going to pay Nick Foles and Andy Dalton that combined $12 million next season if they cut them both, which is just truly incredible. But then you look at it, Alan Robinson is a free agent, a key mix is a free agent. Cleolmac is a free agent. set to make $30.2 million next year.

That is shocking. It turns out when you trade two first-time picks for a guy, he can blow up the market for his position. And you keep borrowing against his contract every year because you've handed out so many bad deals. So that's my question now is, even if Fields is theoretically the path out of the middle, what do you do with the rest of the roster?

Do you bring Alan Robinson back next year? Can you afford to bring Alan Robinson back? next year. What do you do on defense as some of your guys are aging? You don't have any corners. Hopefully J.1 Johnson's good, but who's the other corner going to be? There are just so many questions, and I think that's to me what the next step is if field succeeds. It's, all right, now what? Now what do we do? And they don't have a first round pick next year. It just, I agree with you. I don't think, I hope it doesn't get as bad as a Texan situation. And again, I am hopeful. I am harboring a lot of good feelings about what the Justin Fields era might look like because at least it's a different

sort of struggle than the one I face for the first 34 years of my life. But I absolutely have huge questions about what the Bears 2.0 would look like even if he ends up becoming successful. Yeah. I mean, it's easy to imagine the scenario where the Bears exceed expectations and gather this. So that's not hard to come up with here at all. It's just how likely is that scenario to happen? And I mean, Fields has to be just otherworldly, which is, again, not out of the realm of possibility. I think he's great. But like so many things have to go right to help Fields become that player. And I think my point here is that this is not a ready made team outside of Justin Fields.

Anybody who tries to frame it that way is really, it's very misguided in their thinking. It would be very. And the thing is like, there's also a scenario where Justin Fields is not that great, especially as a rookie. And if he's not, then there's absolutely no hope. Especially in 2021. Then it's just like, all right, maybe what does next season look like? But yeah, I tend to agree with you. All right, let's shit on your team for a little bit then for a second here.

That's fine. Because they're also a part of this conversation. And if you, speaking of some staggering contracts, if you look at the New York Giants contract, that's who we're talking about, by the way. If you look at the New York Giants contract situation going into next year, they have about $3 million in cap space in 2022 as things currently sit, which, for a team that doesn't feel like a contender is probably not a good situation. You look at the Goladay and Williams contracts in 2022 next to each other.

It is remarkable. Leonard Williams is set to make $26 million next year. Kenny Golladay is set to make 21. Bradbury is at 20. I don't know what this team is this year and next year. Let's have the same question. In your mind, what does this successful season look like for the New York Giants in 2021.

Oh, gosh. Your brain hasn't gone here yet, so it's foreign to you. Yeah, exactly. This is new ground for me. Dave Gettleman being carried off the field by the team, as he's pretending to type, after a 300-yard game from Saquan Barclay, clinches the NFC East. I mean, I... Joe Judge convinces the league to make it every game.

It's just a battle royale. Like, it's just a full street fight and a team that wins, wins the Super Bowl. There's just Giants fans. Like, you've ever seen the video of Team MMA? No. It's like, it's like four on four MMA. Jesus. No.

And if you, if, you know, if someone gets submitted or knocked out or whatever, they just becomes four on three or four on two. So basically it's just the first person who gets eliminated, then their team just wins. That's what I imagine the giant sideline being in good times, let alone, let alone bad times, which may happen this year as well. Like, I think it's, do you have Daniel, Jones take a step forward. You have the offensive line coalesce and look like an above average unit. Then you have a team that's invested a lot in their secondary, kind of stifle teams with interception,

stifle teams with coverage, and Leonard Williams continues to play like a superstar. I think maybe you're looking at maybe the good Jaguar season as like the outcome, maybe the Giants are hoping for here, where you have that highly drafted running back. You have the young quarterback who needs help. You have a variety of receivers for him. You have an offensive line that takes a step forward, but really it's the defense, really it's a secondary that's driving the team. I think that has to be how the Giants win football games in 2021. Now, that formula is tough to pull off if you don't have the quarterback, and you can maybe

pull it off for a year like the Jaguars did, but it's hard to fake that. And that's assuming that the Giants stay healthy. And there are injury issues with just about every key component of this offense. So I'm skeptical would be a nice way to put it. I don't think it's hard to build a path for them because I think that, like you said, the defense is promising. I think that Patrick Graham is a really good defensive coordinator. We've talked about him a lot on this show. I'm really excited to see what year two of that defense looks like after the additions that they've made,

whether it's Xavier McKinney coming back, going to get a Dori Jackson, drafting Azizzo Jolari in the second round. I do believe they can be a top 10 defense, if not even better. than that. And then the question that remains is, what is Daniel Jones? Does he take that step forward? And I almost think that what's happened with Josh Allen has given us false hope with some of this stuff. Because the third year step for a quarterback doesn't happen very often. For the most part, in the modern NFL, you know after two years if you have one of your guys. You can see it. You go watch what Justin Herbert was last year. You know it. You know it when you see it with these guys early on for the most

part. Alan is such an outlier in that conversation. And Daniel Jones would have to be another outlier in order to take this team where it wants to go with him at quarterback and to make good on all of the huge bets they've made this offseason. But here's the difference between Josh Allen and Daniel Jones. So Josh Allen in year one was bad. I know there's going to be a richness history where he was great on film and the numbers just didn't capture it. No, he sucked. He was not good at football in year one. He was much better in year two and then took an astronomical leap in year three, but he was improving year after year. Daniel Jones was the same guy in 2020 that he was in 2019. He had the same problems. He struggled with the same things. He was making the same mistakes.

There were no strides made between year one and year two. And the Giants had plenty of people around him. They were not, you know, it's not like he was playing with, you know, Robert Foster as his number one receiver the way Josh Allen was in 2019, or sorry, in 2018, excuse me. You know, it was a, he wasn't exactly the chiefs, but there was enough around Daniel Jones for him to succeed. And he was not able to do so. And that's what concerns me. If he had been making strides, if he'd been better in year two, I'd at least say, okay, well, maybe he does turn into. If not Josh Allen, he just take another step forward in year three. but it has really not been impressive.

And it reminds me a lot of Sam Darnold being in the same situation where, you know, you're kind of just saying, okay, we're going to add this piece, this piece, this piece. And maybe that does help the right player. But unless Nate Soulder is the Patriots Knight Soulder again and Andrew Thomas is Is Nate Zolder even going to play? Or is Matt Piers going to be the right tackle on this team? That's the kind of stuff we're talking about here. I would imagine that the best case scenario for the Giants is that Nate Soulder plays and is really good.

like I think Nate Silder's ceiling is higher than Matt Perth ceiling. Andrew Thomas has to be, you know, the superstar left tackle, the Giants drafted ahead of two guys who look like they're going to be absolute superstars in the NFL at tackle. Kenny Gallaudet has to be healthy and played at high level. And he's already hurt. Like it's just like the early signs aren't great Sequin. Barkley is struggling to get back for week one. You know, this is not a team that feels like they have. have a lot going for them on the offensive side of the ball besides reputation and besides

draft capital. And maybe it happens. There's certainly enough talent to make it work. But there's also a good chance that we get to week eight. Daniel Jones has hurt because he does not feel pressure in the pocket well. And it's Mike Glennon handing the ball off to Alfred Morris 15 times. Like that is, I would say likely, given how the Giants typically play over the past couple years. You would think that maybe if Jones isn't the guy and they sit there next spring, this is another team that's in the market for a quarterback. But they don't have any money. They don't have a lot of financial flexibility. And there are some teams where that doesn't matter, right?

Like the Rams didn't have any money either. They still went out and got Matthew Stafford because it's an organizational edict to push it every single year and to do everything they can to acquire. all of these good players, the costs be damned. But that is a franchise that has unwavering faith in its head coach's ability to get the most out of his offense. I don't think the Giants are going to be sitting there next spring and the mayors are going to tell Dave Gettleman, and you know what, I'll just push a bunch of money onto 24 and trade like three first round picks for Aaron Rogers because we definitely think that

Joe Judge and Jason Garrett are the guys to get the most out of this team. That's just much harder for me to imagine. I mean, maybe they're the team that trades for Derek Carr. Like, that doesn't, that wouldn't seem out of the range of possibilities for me. Can I ask you two questions? You certainly can. Let me ask, actually, no. Derek Carr is one of them.

Let me ask you one question. What would have to happen for me to use my own money to buy a Mike Glennon, Giants jersey in 2021? Like, not as a joke? No, not as a bit. Genuinely buy a Mike Lennon jersey. I mean, I can't even imagine what. it would be. I think that it's so far off in my mind. The fact that he was even the backup quarterback for this team was shocking to me when I learned it. His name came up to me earlier

this week in a conversation. I was like, oh, God, I forgot Mike Lennon is even a thing. But he is definitely the backup quarterback for the New York Giants with a quarterback who likes to hold onto the ball behind a bad offensive line. The real chance we see Mike Lennon this year. He's probably, if you set the over under for his starch for this year, it'd be two and a half. Like, he's going to play this year at some point. What a sad, sad world that is. All right. Let's keep going because we got to get out of here relatively soon. We had a long conversation on a show last week about the Broncos, me and Nate did, because we thought that Vic Fangio was kind of at a crossroads.

But I think that they are also applicable. We can talk about them here as well. They apply to this thinking. And if you look at this team, I think that they have a chance to be, if not the best defense in the league, then one of the best defense in the league. They have so much talent. They have a guy that is genuinely considered the best defensive coach in the entire NFL. They have some offensive talent.

But it also feels like they could be in real flux a year from now if they don't break out of the middle, which I don't think they will, considering their quarterback situation. So let's say this team goes 7 and 10 this year. Just for example, they're picking 17th in the draft. They have like $40 million in cap space because Von Miller, Kyle Fuller, Bryce Callahan, Kareem Jackson, Cortland Sutton, all these guys are hitting free agency. What happens? Like, what is the outcome here if they finish in the middle of the pack again? or what should it be as they go into 2022? Well, I mean, they just changed the general manager.

John Elway got promoted up. I would wonder if they would get rid of Fangio, even if it's not his fault. Like, I wonder if they would just say, we have to make a change. We have to get an offensive-minded head coach in this room. You know, I don't know who that would be. It depends on who gets hot over the next year or so. Maybe they hire, I don't know, Doug Peterson or somebody. and I think they would be the team alongside the Eagles probably and maybe one other teams.

They would be the ones who would kind of take that shot and give up the two or three first-round picks to go out and get a quarterback. I think that would be like that's the last step for them. And I don't think they did enough this offseason to try and address it. And I'm a big Teddy Bridgewater fan saying that. That could mean that they, you know, they maybe maybe. they were believing for a minute or two. They were in on the Aaron Rogers situation. Maybe that was an actual possibility.

But, like, their, it almost feels like their story's already been written for 2020, which is kind of frustrating. Which is why I'm framing it in these terms, already talking about what happens next spring, because I totally agree with you. Well, like, like, do you think there's any possibility that Drew Locke is not Josh Allen, but, like Drew Locke is the 14th best quarterback in football this year? I think that's a very far off chance. Very, very, very far off. I will never say nothing has a possibility or nothing has a chance to happen.

I think the percentages are very small. Has there been anything that would give you reason to believe that he has a significant shot of improving? No. I think that the only way you can talk yourself into it is by saying that his weapons were hurt last year. it was year one of a new offensive coordinator. Those are the only excuses you can make, and I don't believe those excuses. I agree.

And it's frustrating. Here's the difference between this team and the Giants to me. The big, big difference. This team can pivot. If they get to next spring and they sit there and they understand we don't have a quarterback, which that's exactly what they're going to think. They can pivot.

Even if they have the 17th overall pick, they have $40 million in cap space. They can sit there and say, we could pay Deshawn Watson or Aaron Rogers or Russell Wilson. They have an exit strategy. It's not going to be as simple as dropping Aaron Rogers onto the 2020 or excuse me, the 2021 Broncos because a lot of those guys are probably going to be gone, right? Kyle Fuller is on a one-year deal.

Kareem Jackson is getting older. But they do have a way to step into the next era because even if it's not the exact same loaded roster we see right now, you're still looking at Patrick Sturtain and Ronald Darby at corner. They still have Justin Simmons, Nick Chubb, a couple guys along the offensive line, Noah Fant and Jerry Judy. The next step of this roster that's maybe not as loaded as the current one, but has a quarterback, I still think that's a promising future.

That's one I could get excited about as a Broncos fan. And I don't think that those exit strategies or outramps exist for some of the other teams on this list. Now, Mays, you may remember several years ago, a little team in Chicago made it to the postseason. with a Vic Van Gio defense with Mitchell Trubisky as their quarterback. They did not have as much an offense that year as these Broncos do. And their defense was, you know, certainly good on paper. But was it really that much different than these Broncos on paper when you look at the talent they have?

Let's flip it then. Let's say they go 11 and 6 instead of 7 and 10. Let's have it be the most optimistic version of that outcome. Does it really change anything? It depends on how they approach next off. season then because if they the only thing it changes is that Fangio stays right that that's the thing that changes that the coaching staff probably stays if you make the playoffs but i still think the same underlying issues are there right but i i think that's their way out then is they have that season

and they say okay we're not going to make the same mistake the bears made and trick ourselves into thinking Mitchell trubisky uh that's a good point a superstar quarterback like now we are in the situation maybe the vikings were in a few years ago we have that great core of talent and we can be aggressive and go out and get a quarterback. They might not want to get Kirk Cousins. That does not necessarily work out all that well for the Vikings. But I mean, you can have that ability to say, okay, we're now that one piece away. And maybe they trade for Aaron Rogers. And it's the right thing for them at that time. So I feel like they have to have that kind of season to then make themselves more marketable to an Aaron Rogers, to, you know, to the

quarterbacks who are going to be available next offseason. And I, I, I, I am a little more optimistic, I think, than you are. Like, I don't think they're going to be great, but I think they have a better chance of having that 11 and 6 season than it sounds like you do. I actually, you made a really strong point. And I actually agree with a lot of the stuff that you said. I think that's well within the range of outcomes for them. And if that does happen, I also think that Vic Fangio is not the perfect head coach for a lot of situations.

I wouldn't want him to be the head coach of a team that was fostering the career of a young quarterback. But if you could go out and get a guy like Aaron Rogers who you could literally just drop in and he's a ready-made product and could essentially be your offense the moment that he gets there, that is a lot more encouraging to me. And maybe that's the path that they can follow.

Maybe they can do that. And Vic Fangio and that staff is the group that can take you over the top. But I don't think that's crazy. I don't think that version of it is that crazy. I'm just a little bit less optimistic than you are about it. You know what? I saw the Giants win two Super Bowls

with Tom Coughlin as their quarterback. Like, that's not, I don't think Vic Van Gio is going to be the thing holding them back here. I agree. I think that they could be okay. I just, I don't know. It just feels a little bit less than that. I think that they come up a little bit short of that version that you're laying out. All right.

Let's get to our last team here. And that is the Washington football team. You mentioned them as belonging in this group. And I'm really curious as to why you think that. because I am really optimistic about them in the sense that I think their offense was so hard to gauge last year because of the level of quarterback play. And I know what Ryan Fitzpatrick is at this point in his career. I also believe that Ryan Fitzpatrick is playing the best football of his life and that he could continue to play at a high level. Full disclosure, I've been thinking about Ryan Fitzpatrick a lot recently.

When you guys listen to this, I will have a huge Ryan Fitzpatrick story coming out in the athletic tomorrow. So I've had a lot of Ryan Fitzpatrick conversations over the last month or so. And I think that he's a really good fit for what they need offensively. Let me lay this out for you. This is kind of how I see them. I don't think there'll be a top three defense again. I'm not penciling them in as this dominant, dominant defense. But I still think they have enough defensive talent with the front,

with going to get William Jackson, with getting Bobby McCain. They have more bodies in the secondary now. Maybe they play their defense is a little bit more varied back there. Let's say they finish as a top eight defense. And then they finish as a slightly above average offense. Let's say they're the 15th best offense in the league. Ryan Fitzpatrick is the guy we saw in Miami for the last couple years. That young supporting cast takes a step forward.

And they finish as a borderline playoff team and get knocked out in the wild card round. And then they're one of those teams again in the quarterback sweepstakes last year. They, in a lot of ways, remind me of what the cults were a year ago. That is the comparison that I would make. And then I think their pathway out is can they go get a quarterback of the future next year? What about that do you think is unreasonable? I'd like to go back to like 2012 or 2011 and compare, tell 2012 Robert Mays that he was comparing Philip Rivers to Ryan Fitzpatrick in 2020 and see. how he would feel about that.

If you want to know why Ryan Fitzpatrick is a better quarterback in 2020 than he was in 2011, please go read my Ryan Fitzpatrick story on the athletic tomorrow because I get into that or I'm going to get into that. I haven't written it yet. We're recording several days in advance. Right. Ryan Fitzpatrick is 38 years old. He's turning 39 in November.

Ryan Fitzpatrick, who is a very fun human being. By all accounts. I'm sure the article is great. I have not read it yet. Ryan Fitzpatrick was playing in 2020 with Chan Galey as his offensive coordinator, a guy he had in several spots in Buffalo and in New York with the Jets, which were the best seasons of Ryan's grade. Granted, he had a season with the Bucks where he was wildly entertaining. He had an interception rate of around 5%. Average 9.6 yards per attempt. It was very fun to watch. Ryan Fitzpatrick, you know, I think he is a guy where, how might I put this? Like, it's easier for me to imagine Ryan Fitzpatrick falling off a cliff than it is for me to imagine Ryan Fitzpatrick being the 10th best quarterback in football. And I think you can maybe pull that off if you have the right pieces around Ryan Fitzpatrick.

But I'm not optimistic about the offensive line here. I am not optimistic about the receivers after Terry McLaren. You know, I just, I think the chances of this offense taking a step forward, taking a significant step forward, just aren't all that high. And I don't fault them for what they did. Wow. We're very far apart on this. That's fine. I don't fault them for what they did. Like, I think Fitzpatrick was a good shot to take. But, like, who are you super excited about? in this offense.

When it, let me like, you know, the offensive line. Like, do you think this is this going to be a top 15 offensive line? Yes. I think it's above average. I think it's above average. I think it's a fine group. I love Brandon Scherf. Like, I, like, yes, getting Eric Flowers for nothing is good.

Getting Charles Leno for one-year deal for not that much is good. Maybe Sam Cosby is a good rookie tackle. Like, I, I don't agree with you that this is a top 15 line. I just don't see it. Maybe top 15 is slightly optimistic. Here's what I would say. I don't think this group is going to hold them back. I think it's going to hover right around average.

And if it hovers right around average, I have faith in the combination of skill position players. We talked about Logan Thomas and Antonio Gibson on a show last week. I think both of those guys could be better than they were last year with Gibson heading into year two. Gibson, yes. And with Thomas getting better quarterback play. And I just think that the level of quarterback play this team got last year and how much it held them. back in every single way, in what they could call in the routes that were available to them,

and the type of player that Terry McClellan was, and you combine that with bringing in somebody like Curtis Samuel, having a third receiver like Diami Brown, who they're excited about. I just feel like Ryan Fitzpatrick gives this offense a chance in the way they didn't have last year and the supporting pieces could be better than they were a year ago. I don't think they'll be the eighth best offense in the league, but I think they could be the 15th best offense in the league. And if they are, plus having a top 10 defense, then I think they could hover around the playoffs.

And I think that you look at this year and you say, did Ryan Fitzpatrick help the growth of our young players? Because that's part of signing him. What he has been able to do with younger skill position guys around the league, people have taken notice of that. And I think that's the hope is that he helps those guys grow. And you sit there next spring and say, all right, we got 35-ish million dollars in cap space. We have this young roster.

We're really excited about. We spin the quarterback wheel again. And maybe we can trade for somebody and be one of those teams in the market for one of those game-changing guys that's available next offseason. That, to me, is what their outlook should be. Yeah. I mean, to me, they're the Broncos with less talent on the offensive side of the ball. Maybe more quarterback. Because I'm more optimistic about Ryan Fitzpatrick than I am about Drew Locke.

But, dude, they won't last in offensive DVA last year. They were horrible. And I know, horrible. I know you're going to say, okay, well, they can't be matured and they can't be matured. They'll be better on offense this year than they were a year ago. But, like, they were, like, Scott Turner just might not be that good as an offensive coordinator. The pieces they had, the pieces they have, the pieces they have on offense might not be all that great. Like, like, Gianni Brown's a good example.

Like, great that they're excited about Jeremy Brown. What's the success rate of third round picks as rookies? making meaningful back. I don't think he's going to be a huge contributor. I think he's going to be one guy that does something once every three games. What's to say he's going to be an above average number three receiver? Curtis Samuel is a guy who has struggled significantly with injuries over the course of his pro career. Like, are, is he going to be, can he be a viable number two?

Why, Doc? Of course. Is that likely? I would say it's less likely than more likely to me. Logan Thomas is a guy who got 100 targets last year and wasn't efficient with them in the slightest. Like he got targets because there was no one else. throw the football too. He didn't have a breakout season because he was like a really good tight end. He had a breakout season because there was no one else on the field besides Terry McClare and throw the football to.

Like I just up and down this lineup like you're hoping. And guess, some of those guys may break out and have great seasons. Like I don't think it's outside of the room of possibility. I just think the most likely scenario is that these guys are not all that impressive and that they're the 26th best offense in football as opposed to the six. 16th best offense in football. And by the way, also. I have a lot more faith in the supporting cast. I just think it's really hard to judge them from last year. I think it's really, really hard. They were the fifth easiest schedule in football last year, according to football outsiders.

They are now playing a first place schedule. That's not going to help their chances in 2021. I think that's fair. I think if they finished 500, it wouldn't surprise me. I don't be surprised because it's a 17-game season. Jesus. If they finish one game above 500, if they finish 9 and 8,

I'd be like, okay, I can see that team finishing 9 and 8. But I just think they have so many young pieces you can be encouraged about that even if they hover around the middle this year, I still think the outlook is pretty good because you have these guys that you hope are going to ascend and then you, again, you play the quarterback game again next spring. So I think that here's one of the other reasons. I don't think they're as appropriate for this conversation

as some of these other teams. they're headed in the right direction. At least there's some progress being made here where in some of these other places, there's a lot more stagnation, in my opinion. They also are going to have one of the three worst offensive lines in the league on paper

when we get to the first day of the new league year in 2022. If they don't sign Brandon Shurf, Leno's on a one-year deal, correct? Yep, that's fair. I think that's a really good point. That line's going to be ugly in 2022. I don't think it looks all that great now. maybe I'm just holding on to my priors about Eric Flowers,

but I just, I don't see it, man. That's an excellent point. If they're 16th in the NFL and DVA this year in 2021, and they're looking great for 2022, I will be wrong, but I just don't see it. I think the 22 and 2 point about the line is a really good one, but outside of that group, and I think they'll have the, again, can these teams, can they pivot?

Do they have resources to fix some of these problems? and I think that Washington is going to be one of those teams next year that potentially does. I just think I'm excited about their outlook. I feel very good about what they're going to look like in terms of, again, what it looks like going forward. Did you know Payton, Barber, and Lamar Miller on the debt chart at running back for Washington right now? I just hope that Antonio Gibson gets every single carry and it doesn't matter. It's some combination of Gibson and J.D. McKissick. So the point of this entire conversation is please go check out my Ryan Fitzpatrick story on The Athletic tomorrow.

That's all that really matters. I'm very excited about it. It was a really, really cool thing to work on. This will be the last show you guys here before it comes out. I got to talk with a lot of people that he coached, that coached him during his career. I got to talk to Chan Galey, which I was very excited about. And there are so many questions I had about Ryan Fitzpatrick about why is he a better quarterback now than he was five years ago. And there's an actual tangible answer to that.

And I think that it's really interesting. And how is some of these stops? played out what it was like last year in Miami when they made the decision to go to Tua. All of that stuff is in there. So I encourage you guys to go check it out because I had a lot of fun working on it. And it was a really cool project to begin to. Now that my self-promotion is over, Barnwell, thanks very much, buddy. I'm really glad we did this.

Again, I wanted to know what you thought about some of this stuff. And I came away learning a lot. So I hope everyone else did as well. Yeah, you guys should check out Robert May's article on The Athletic about Ryan Fitzpatrick. That's my plug for this week. Thanks, buddy. I really appreciate it. We will talk to you, hopefully before the season again.

Hopefully we'll do one of the division previews with you. And we can get you back on here sooner rather than later because it was too long. There's too much of gap between the last time. I can't wait. All right. Talk to you soon, bud. All right. It's time now for a highly anticipated little camp visit here with the Athletic Chargers writer, Daniel Popper.

How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. It's my first appearance on the pod. I'm super excited and honored to be a part of it. That's, don't be silly. I appreciate you doing this, but this is not an honor, I promise you. So we are sitting here overlooking the Chargers practice field. A place that I have been more times than I realized when I pulled in today,

it's just some of the camps, I don't know where to park, and I don't know where to go, and I don't know where the setup is. And it's like, oh, yeah, I've been to this field a lot of times in my life. I tend to forget that sometimes. Yeah, well, I've only been covering the team as in my third season, and I've been here a lot. and it's a great setup. I mean, honestly, the one thing that always jumps out to you, though, like, look at how beautiful the fields are manicured.

Like, these are grass fields. They're playing on them every day. It's hot. It's hot. And they keep them in great condition. But yeah, they got a fantastic setup here. Obviously, you know this. We are bullish on the Los Angeles Chargers on this podcast, as I have been seemingly

for the past decade of my life. I don't learn. I do not learn my lesson. And we keep making the same mistakes over and over again. I do think that this year and this. setup and this coaching staff and this version has a slightly different flavor than some of the other ones in the past. Just on a broad level, what have your initial impressions been from Brandon Staley's first training camp with this team? Yeah, and even just going back to January when he was hired,

I think the two things that jump out to you initially about Brandon Staley are, one, his intelligence. I mean, he is a savant when it comes to football. And the second thing is related to that, but he is an excellent, excellent, excellent communicator. And it jumps out to you immediate. Like even in our, in the intro press conference, like he's explaining his vision in such a clear way. And it's like, okay, I understand why people say that this guy can transmit his message to players so effectively because he can do it to the media. And in 45 minutes, you're like, okay, this guy is very, very smart and he has an ability to communicate that I haven't really seen around the NFL in my time covering the league. And those are the two things that he brings

to the team in every facet, really, you know, not just defensively, but offensively. and special teams, just a high, high level of intelligence and then the ability to give his message to the players and the coaching staff in a really streamlined way. It's really cool when guys clearly have been thinking about this for a while. I was talking to Ronald Hill today. He was the defensive coordinator for the Chargers, and he was talking about how when they were in Denver together, after they would meet with Vic Fangio, they would talk and they would have these ideas like, what if we did this?

And they'd almost have this download session after the main meeting. And it's one of those things where you start building up ideas for it. Well, when I get a chance, maybe I'll do some of this stuff. And this staff is full of those guys, right? Yeah. Brandon has been planning for what he would do for a while as a defense coordinator. Took one year. It's all it took.

Now he's a head coach. And Rinaldo Hill has never been a defense coordinator before. And Joel Lombardi has not been a coordinator in a while after a rough stint in Detroit about seven years ago. And so that's what you have. You have all these guys who've been thinking, all right, when I get my chance, when I can get in this room, what is it going to look like? like. And that's why while I'm excited about it, you have to remember how young this group is. The quarterback is in his second year. You have a bunch of coaches who are stepping into new roles. It's flashy

and exciting. But I think at the same time, we have to remember just how new this is for all the guys in this building. Yeah. You can even talk about Derwin James. He's only played one season. That's insane. It was an incredible season and he made all pro as a rookie. But he's missed 27 of the last 32 games. So you sort of go down a list and it is a really young team it is a really young staff and that's why you know everyone's super high on this team but i'm sort of waiting you know i need to i need to see this team get healthy to week one and then i need to see how these coaches react when they're in these big roles when the bullets are flying i know it's cliche and all no i i will say it's all the time but i love it i love this is why i love talking to people who cover teams because they have the soberest view of this

stuff and it's it's so good to have that conversation with somebody who watches it every day sees the cracks where they are, sees where the team is weak, sees where the strengths are, just having institutional knowledge because it brings you back to Earth a little bit or pumps you up a little bit. I think you find your level in the right way when you talk to people who cover these teams every day, which is why I like doing it. Right. And, you know, this is every year. The Chargers are the dark horse every single year. And then I've just been stepping on rakes for a decade. Right. But then everything blows up and then who's left there to continue covering the team? It's me, right? So, like, I see how it deteriorates.

I see the explosion and the aftermath. And, you know, on paper, this team has a chance to be really, really good. Their starting units are excellent. The biggest weakness in this team was the offensive line, and they overhauled it in one-off season. But the qualifier, the caveat is always if they stay healthy. And this team has not been able to stay healthy. So I can't sit here and say they're absolutely going to be a healthy team when year after year since I've been covering them. It's just been devastating injury after devastating injury,

and then they just don't have the depth to make up for that. What have they done on that front to try to prevent that from happening again? What has the approach been on that side of it that might be different from years past? Right. So they brought in new head of sports performance in Anthony Lamanda, who was formerly with the Broncos, and Brandon Silley worked with him when he was the outside linebacker's coach there. But it's more about intention. And I think also having a sort of a modern view on sports performance and sports science. They practice for 80 minutes today. Right. And so they're coming off a padd scrimmage.

They had a day off and they go only 80 minutes to stay with only one period of 11 on 11. But I think one area where it's materialized is they do this activation period. It's mandatory. Like practice on the schedule for us starts at 9 o'clock. But practice really starts at 845. And there's 15 minutes where the guys are without their helmets and if they're padded without their shoulder pads and they're rolling their muscles out. And they're just doing a bunch of planks.

They're doing a bunch of stretching just to make sure that everyone's body is right. And there's an intention there from Brandon Staley. He's like, I know that this has been an issue. And I want to try and rectify that. And so we're instituting these different things. And then after practice, every player is on the field doing a post-practice stretch. And it's just an intention for Brandon Staley, even with the veteran players, right? Like Brian Blaga staying healthy is really, really important for this team. He's getting a lot of time off. They're not going to overwork him. He's played a lot of football. And so they don't feel like they need to put him on the field that often. And so, you know, I think part of it, too, is that, you know, one thing Brandon Staley said in his intropressor that I feel like he really believes in is that he's learned more from the players he's coach than they've learned from him.

That's the type of humble statement you don't really see from, especially from an up-and-coming coach like that. And he's listened to these players. Like in the spring, they were like, listen, we have not been able to stay healthy. And that's why we haven't been successful. We have lost key players in training camp and it has absolutely screwed us. We need to get to week one healthy. He had meetings with the leadership council of the team. So they come to a compromise that we're not going to do any 11 on 11.

We're not going to do any 7 on 7, no competitive one-on-ones in OTAs. And that's a new coach, a brand new coach trying to install his offense and defense and schemes and special teams. And he's like, all right, I trust that you guys are going to study enough and have the mental approach and the type of commitment to get to get to get to get to. So it's an intention from the get-go. And then it's also listening to his players and adapting based on what he's hearing from these guys. because he respects them and knows that they have a better knowledge of this team's history than he does. So let's stick with the offense first, because obviously they bring in Joe Lombardi, and they're going to run this Saints specific system.

And that's what they've been teaching. That's what they've been doing. And from what I understand in a conversation I had today, it's dense already. They're really layering it on and not trying to start at the 101 level with Justin Herbert, who, again, is only coming into his second season. And if you watch it in practice, I won't say where they're lining up. But some of the personnel packages they're throwing out there, whether it's two tight ends, guys lining up in different spots, even though the play and the motivation behind it might be the same. They're really trying to make this a nuanced, layered offense that is very hard to defend.

And that is why, and that sounds stupid, right? Like, that sounds dumb. But there are some coaches around the league, offensively, defensively, that think less is more. They want it to be streamlined so their guys can play fast. Yeah. This team on both sides of the ball does not believe that. They don't believe that whatsoever. They are going to throw a million different things at you.

And I think that's why I'm really excited to see what the offense looks like in practice. Because the defense, even if it's slightly different than what the Broncos have done than what the Rams did last year with Staley. I have an idea of what we're going to see. I know the baseline principles of it. What the Saints offense over the last five, six, seven years looks like with Justin Herbert in it, that to me, I've never seen that before. And that's what I really am excited to watch. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, haven't had that type of mobility and haven't had that type of arm strength.

So what does that mean for, you know, moving the pocket, play action bootleg game? What does that mean for pushing the ball down the field? But there is a level of respect for Justin Herbert's intelligence among this coaching staff. And yeah, and I don't think that they would create this type of offense and implement this type of complexity unless they felt like he could handle it. He's a really, really, really, really intelligent human being, not just football player. And so I think it says a lot about what this staff feels, how they feel about Justin Herbert, that they're creating this offense. They feel like he can handle it. And it's not just the quarterback, though, in this scheme.

Every player on the field has to have a high level of intelligence. So they go out and get a center and Corey Lindley, pay him $65 million. Highly, highly, highly intelligent player. Like, not an elite athlete. He's a great center, one of the best in the game because he's one of the smartest offensive linemen in football. Alston Echler, highly intelligent player. one of my go-to guys in the locker room when I want to ask about schematic stuff or stuff I'm seeing in the field.

And they go out and draft a guy in Josh Palmer, who didn't have big numbers in college, but very precise route runner and very smart player. Keenan Allen, you know, maybe not X's and O's in terms of articulating it to you, but the way he senses things on the field, his feel for the game and leverages, unparalleled in the NFL. So you go down the list and you say, okay, how does this work? Well, they feel like they have a highly intelligent quarterback,

and then they have highly intelligent players around that quarterback in every position group. And I think the main question people would probably have about the offense is, well, why didn't it work when Joel and Barney went to Detroit? And I think that Jeff Duncan in his book that he wrote about Drewbies and Sean Peyton alluded this a little bit. When they were in New Orleans, there was an expectation that you'd be there all hours of the night. Yeah. And that there would be these deep, deep game plans and you would go deep into the week. Adding plays on Saturday nights. Yes.

And it would just, that's how it would go. And in Detroit, apparently, they wanted everything in by Tuesday. And Jim Caldwell comes from a place where the Colts were pretty simple. Like, Peyton Manning had the things he liked to do and guys lined up in certain spots because he could see the defense and then he could do whatever he wanted to. He liked that static picture. There is nothing static about the way that this team wants to end up playing. And that's why I'm optimistic about what the second go as an offensive play caller could look like with Joe Lombardi

because I think that Brandon Staley believes in this system so fully that they're going to try to run it with as deep of a way, as complex of a way, just every aspect of it that they tried to do in New Orleans. Yeah. I mean, you and Nate talk about this all the time in the podcast. Like, coaches,

the first tape they watch every week is the same thing, right? Like, and I think it goes back to 2009. We were talking about this the other day. Like, Brandon Staley was still a graduate assistant college coach. And Joe Lombardi was his offensive coordinator when he was at Mercyhurst and Brandon was a quarterback. And so they kept that connection going. And Brandon went to New Orleans in 2009 and spent a week in the Saints quarterback's room with Drew Brees, with Carmichael, with Sean Payton, and with Joe Lombardi.

And I think that really opened his eyes up to, you know, what that environment should look like. And it's collaborative. No idea is too crazy. And it's constantly adapting. And like you said earlier, this is a vision for all three phases of the team, right? It's not just, okay, we're going to do, we're going to have this philosophy offensively and this philosophy defensively. Like, they want to be multiple in all three phases. They want to have heavy disguise.

They want to weaponize their formations and personnel defensively and offensively. And so I think they found a really good marriage here in terms of having an overarching philosophy that applies to all phases of the team. And that's at the baseline level. And again, this sounds simple. It's making it hard on your opponent. It's just making their preparation difficult, making it so they can't identify exactly. what you're trying to do based on these two or three hints by having all those different personnel packages all those different ways to line up it's hard to get tells it just makes the

density of what you have to think about and prepare for so much more difficult and i think that's what they're trying to do so defensively to me the big question is this tractor starts cutting the field next to it loves some tractor noises it's always good brings the people to the field on defense i think the big question and it's one that i certainly not a novel one or one that i came up with. A lot of people have asked it. You have this defensive system and these ideas that were filtered last year through J-Wan Ramsey and Aaron Donald. Now, what does it look like when they're filtered through Derwin James and Joey Bosa? Because you have guys who are the same level player, in my opinion, when healthy,

but their skill sets are very different, where the positions they play are very different. And that, to me, is just another one of those things. I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see what these ideas filtered through these players looks like compared to what last year's Rams looked like. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating. And, you know, Joey Bose's at the end of the day, he's a pass rusher. Yes. Like, his responsibility is getting to the quarterback, and that will always be his responsibility,

regardless of what scheme he's playing in. So I really focus in on Derwin James, because he's really fascinating to me. He's calling the plays. He's relaying the plays into the huddle, so that shows, you know, a level of trust between him and Brandon Staley. And I asked Brandon the other day,

you know, obviously John Johnson was calling the plays for the Rams last year. Is it the fact that he likes a safety calling the plays, or is it the fact that he had two unique players? And he said it, you know, he was diplomatic. He said it somewhere in the middle, but Derwin James is that kind of unique player in terms of his leadership, in terms of his football IQ, and then in terms of his versatility.

Like he's going to be playing all over. And, you know, he can do anything you want a defensive player on the field. He can blitz. He can get after the quarterback. He can cover anybody. Like he goes one-on-one against Keenan Allen. But I think the fascinating part of what this defense is going to look like is where exactly is Derwin James going to be playing.

And it's going to be multiple positions. He's going to be playing deep field safety. He's going to be playing money as, you know, safety. linebacker hybrid. He's going to be defending the slot. And that's one thing that Brandon Saley did with Jaylon Ramsey last year. Getting them closer to the ball. Just getting them in the middle of the action, which makes total sense. But no one had that, like, nobody had the vision. I was in Jacksonville. Like I saw what they did with Jalen. He played on the outside every single time. It's, it's having that type of vision for, okay, how can I get the absolute most out of my all-world players?

And I think utilizing that versatility is a big part of that. And just even, you know, carrying this over to Joey Bosa, like they're dropping him into coverage a little bit. That's something he has not done pretty much at any point in his career, but certainly not really in the NFL. And so how much will that throw off an opposing quarterback? You have to deal with 97 coming after you on every single play. And then all of a sudden, he's dropping into the flat. And as we were talking about on the sideline, we'll watch your practice. Like, he's an underrated athlete. Like, how much can you do in terms of the versatility with those two players to really make things as hard as possible on opposing quarterbacks? All right. So let's get to where this is going to go wrong. Because I think that that's

an important conversation to have about the charges relatively every single year, pretty much. Where are those weaknesses that are just sticking with you, the things that you just keep coming back to? I have to start with offensive line depth because that has been what has screwed this team over. When you told me that Corey left the field on Sunday

during the scrimmage before I got there, I didn't even know how to react. I almost just left the building because I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, the one thing is, like, and just going back to the injury and how they've changed their performance,

approach, like they are being really careful. If the guy's like, hey, my foot's hurting a little bit, get out. Especially guys as important as Corey Lindsay. But hypothetically, if that's a more severe injury, they've got Scott Quisenberry as their backup center. That changes everything. And you talk about this all the time, how a great center is a force multiplier for the entire offensive line. Like, that's especially the case with Corey Lindley in this team. But you talk about, okay, right tackle.

Brian Belaga's had a lot of injuries, especially last year. Forever. But especially, and, you know, that's part of the problem is you go out and you sign aging offensive line with injury history. is what's sort of your expectation. But if he goes down, what do they do at right tackle? Matt Filer is at left guard. That's where he's entrenched right now, but he played his best football in Pittsburgh at right tackle.

They swing him out to the right side if Brian gets hurt. That scares me. Then what happens on the interior? They like how Brennan Hymas is coming on. The rookie, they drafted in Nebraska in the fifth round, but all of a sudden things look a lot different if you have an injury on your offensive line. And so they got Storm Norton, former XFL player.

That's one of their guys competing for the swing tackle spot. What a name. Trey Pipkins, third, ground pick out of Division 2, Sue Falls back in 2019. He's not consistent enough to be a starter right now, but obviously has the size and athleticism. So that's my biggest area of concern, because I've seen this offensive line play with injuries over the last few years, and let me tell you, it is ugly.

Like, I'm the guy that's sitting there watching this offensive line tape every Tuesday, and it was not good enough, and they were able to overhaul the starting unit in one off season, but depth takes time, and you've got to hit on draft picks, you've got to find undrafted guys, you've got to make signings on the, in terms of death pieces that are going to allow you to sort of weather injuries. Defensively, I worry about safety depth. Yeah. There is there's and that's the thing is there, the personnel

that they could throw at you even last year when Terrell Burgess was a rookie and they had Jordan Froller coming in and playing right away. They had bodies back there. When you're trying to be multiple and trying to have all these personnel packages, it helps when you can just rotate all these guys in and out and they just don't have that flexibility on the back end that a team like the Rams did last year. Right. So they have four rostered

safeties. Like that's it. And usually You keep four on the 53. So it's Nasir Adderly and Derwin James, obviously. And then they have Alohi Gilman, who's a sixth round pick last year, was really a non-factor with this team last year. But he's getting some run with a dime package and first team. And it just goes to show like, you know, great coaching. We'll get the most out of players. But, you know, obviously unproven.

And then Mark Webb, a seventh-th-round pick out of Georgia, who they feel like can be really versatile, can play some slot corner, can play both safety spots. But he had a little bit of an injury. But it's like, okay, are you relying on a seventh-round pick? Obviously, you know, Jordan Fuller was a six-round pick last year with the Rams. but after that, like those are all the rostered safeties. They've been flexing Dante Vaughn over there at safety when Mark Webb

was injured. But, you know, one injury there, and you're really concerned, and then on top of that, like, Nassir Adderly has not been good so far in his NFL career. He had a severe hamstring injury, his rookie year that kept him out, and then last year playing that single high role in Gus Bradley's defense, like, it just, it didn't fit

him, and I think he just got sort of, you know, you got to have a lot of patience to play that position. You've got to be okay with not seeing the ball for 55 plays a game. It's like being an outfielder. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So they're going to get him around the ball more. They're going to try to, you know, maximize his skill set, but another unproven player, and that's your starting second safety. So I worry about there. And then this is something you have talked about in the pod too, just the defensive line depth and, and, you know, what happens if

Linval Joseph goes down and what happens to their run defense? I think those, those are the three areas, offensive line depth, safety depth, and then defensive line depth that are my areas of concern. This team also has 17 kickers in training camp, which is something that I've never seen before. Are you including me in that number? There are three. They do have three kickers, which I'm standing on the sideline today as they walked off the field. There are like 25 specialists. It's unlike anything I've ever seen in NFL training camp before.

The actual number is seven, but it seems like 25, but they've got three kickers, two punters, and two long snappers. But let's be real. They had the worst special teams. It makes sense. In football outsider's history. Like, it was atrocious. Atrocious.

It makes total sense. It's just staggering when you're standing there watching those guys walk by. It's like, those are just the specialists. And it's almost enough to field an entire side of the ball. Very strange. But again, you can completely understand why they think about this way. But I think it's a good note to end on with the specialist because, again, it's so easy to get excited about this team. but we have to remember these little tiny areas where there are still small fires that they have to put out.

Exactly. Even you saying Mark Webb, who's a seventh round pick, might have to play a role for this team. That, to me, is the big difference between this team and deeper teams that fancy themselves contenders like Cleveland or Buffalo or some of the other real teams in the AFC. Because you can look at the starting 22 on this team. You can look at what Justin Herbert did last year. You can be excited about Brian Staley and think, this is a playoff team. This is a team. I mean, what did Nishiel pick them to do?

11 and 6. And I think that can happen. Absolutely, in the realm of possibility. But I just think that we've said this. The band of outcomes is wider for this team than it is for some of the other teams. That being said, I'm going to talk myself into the optimistic side of that band because it's just what I do every single August. I don't blame me. It's because you haven't spent as much time around this team as I have.

And I just expect the worst. I have to because, you know, talking myself into the optimism and then I'm sitting there and they're three and nine and I'm covering another bad team, which I've, which is all I've covered in my entire career. But, you know, like you said, there are little fires everywhere with this team that they have to put out. And they might not be glaring. They might not be in your face. But, you know, improving the special teams is one of those things. Like, you cannot have the worst special teams in the league and be a competitive playoff team. Now, Darius Swinton is the new coordinator.

I think there's reason to be optimistic about improvement there. But if they can get to the 20th best special teams in the league, all right? And then Herbert is a superstar. Right. Defense is healthy. right away. I mean, I think that's the other part of this. And I mentioned his name once.

There is a chance that Justin Herbert is just one of the guys by the time the season is over. Like, I truly believe that that can happen. Absolutely. He could be in the upper, upper echelon of NFL quarterbacks. I mean, obviously, experience is going to make him a different player five years now than he is at this very moment. But if he can look like one of the six, seven best quarterbacks in the league right now, it changes everything for this team. And I think that's possible.

Absolutely. I mean, the skill set is there. There are basically four guys in the league outside of him that can do the things. physically on the field that he gives. And when you combine that with the intelligence and what we think about what the offense could look like schematically, I mean, there's a lot of reasons to be excited.

Yeah. And I'm going to be excited. As long as they can stay healthy. And there it is. Daniel Popper, thank you very much, my friend. Always good to chat with you, and we will definitely be having you back on when the Chargers are not three and nine.

Thanks for having me, Robert. All right, guys, thank you so much to Daniel. Thank you so much to my good buddy, Bill Barnwell. Always so good to chat with him. We will be back a little bit later this week with Nate. and Rams writer Jordan Roderig visited with her as part of my LA swing as well. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to The Athletic.

I have a story coming out later this week that I really hope that I really think you guys will enjoy. So Theathletic.com slash football show again, so much stuff on there. You need an athletic subscription to properly follow the NFL at this point in the calendar. So please go check that out. I will be back with Nate a little bit later this week. Until then, thank you guys so much for listening. Talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.