The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The 10 non-quarterbacks who define Super Bowl LVII

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

From Travis Kelce and A.J. Brown, to Chris Jones and Haason Reddick, to Andy Reid and Nick Sirianni, the way we talk and think about Super Bowl LVII is shaped by a whole lot of guys who aren't the quarterbacks. Robert Mays and Nate Tice dive into the most important non-quarterbacks in the Super Bowl on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's episode is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.comPeloton: Try Peloton risk free with a 30-Day Home Trial, New Members only at onepeloton.com/home-trialBurrow: Show Burrow you’re listening to The Athletic Football Show by shopping at burrow.com/mays and get 10% off your first orderAllbirds: Discover your perfect pair of Wool Runners at Allbirds.com todayBlue Nile: Find the perfect piece of jewelry for life’s special moments and save up to 50% now at bluenile.comBetter Help: Visit BetterHelp.com/mays today to get 10% off your first month4:25 Jeff Stoutland8:39 Steve Spagnuolo16:06 A.J. Brown and Haason Reddick26:43 Travis Kelce36:29 Jason Kelce41:03 Kansas City's rookies44:00 Brett Veach50:06 Howie Roseman54:22 Chris Jones60:02 Nick Sirianni64:54 Andy Reid Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend, Natey, Stane. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing very, very well. We got no distractions right now.

That was something I had to get used to. Belor and I did our gambling segment earlier, and it was like a great test run because I forgot how distracted I can get in Meteor Row and doing all this. And I don't know, this is exciting. Like, as soon as I get the credential, it's like, okay, all right, here we go. Now I can enjoy this week a little bit. up to that point. It's like, ah, ah, am I going to be able to do this? But, I mean, this is awesome. The Super Bowl's awesome. I'm so glad we're here. I was like the story I tell myself as we get

into the week, being like, oh, yeah, I'll get stuff done during the week. And that just never, ever happens. But it's always so good to be here. It's always so fun to be here. I mean, seeing everyone. And last night, we got to see a bunch of different people and see friends that seems like we only see a couple times a year. So I'm so happy to be here, and I'm so happy to be here with you. We're getting to do this in person, which we never get to do. And it is the best. It is. I know. The first time, the first in show, one we did was the draft, right? The 20-21 draft in Chicago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember we were both kind of like, this is strange. Like, being in person is such a different. You actually

have a conversation. Yeah. And actually know when to, like, feel like, oh, okay, my point's about to end. You actually can have, like, a normal conversation with people. It's great. Also, like, when you say not getting stuff done, this is how much of a child I am, I decided, like, I'm not going to bring my Nintendo Switch this week. Just so I'm in a hotel room. You're a father now. I know. Just so I'm in the hotel room, those games, I'm. I'm not going to finish them. I've been putting off those seasons nights. I did bring a couple books, though.

We have been shipping away at our game preview, which we are going to dig into in earnest tomorrow. Yeah. Before we get there, the way that we wanted to spend today's show, a couple different thoughts. One, I want to talk a little bit more about how we got here, and I want to talk about some of the personalities associated with that that maybe we're not going to dig into with the game preview. So we're going to talk today about the 10 non-quarterbacks who have shaped the Super Bowl. 10 people that, some under the radar, some big names, but maybe guys we're not going to dig into as much in terms of their impact,

their legacy, all of those things. So we're going to zoom out a little bit with this show and dig into 10 of those guys. It's going to be like 15 of those guys. But we're saying 10, we get to make this up as we're going along. We say I cheated on this one, guys, just so I could group in because I couldn't pick just one. All right, so let's start with somebody that obviously, you know, football nerds know who he is, but I think the general public probably has no idea about the degree to which he has shaped this game. And that is Jeff Stoughtland, the Eagles offensive line coach, who we talked about this with Barnwell

when we were doing the lessons we learned from the final four teams about what having the right offensive line coach means. The chiefs are another example with Andy Heck, but Jeff Stowland specifically just feels like he's impacted the ethos of the, Eagles teams as much as really any offensive line coach in the league has. And of course, I will never hesitate to praise good offensive line coaches because I know they could be worth their weight in gold, especially with Stoughtlin. And it's a style. Like he has a definitely has a type of player that he likes and you can see it. Big and athletic is a nice type of player to like.

I prefer those players as well. But, I mean, the guys plays with such good technique. You see guys improve every year. You see guys like Jordan Milata is like the way. perfect example of this. Air National Pathway guy, seventh rounder that he has grown and grown and grown into a legit good left tackle. And I mean

we talk about it. You have to take these guys in the first round. He's finding them in the seventh. And just the growth of that, also just how dependent, they are dependable they are. It's like you always know that he's going to adjust the run game. That's what offensive line coaches do. They're in charge of the run game. When they put together a game plan, that's

why the chemistry between an offensive coordinator and a relationship and an offensive line coach matters so much because they have to tie in the past game, run game, and the best ones know how to do both. And obviously, the Eagles do. Because you can see the fingerprint that Stoutland has on this offense and how they can get to different runs and how it's well coached and nothing. There's never that moment when you watch this run game.

You're like, why do you run that against that box? Everything always makes sense with them. And that starts with him. If you look at the staffs between the 2017 team and this team that went to the Super Bowl, he's the through line. He is the consistent element of what that team was and what this team is. and all the different runs that they can run, all of the different just player development things

that you're talking about, every single guy who has come through there, whether it be Elaine Johnson who was a top five pick, Jason Kelsey, who was, I think I believe, a sixth round pick, Jordan Mowato was a seventh round pick, Landon Dickerson, Isaac Salamalo, every single one of those guys has either reached his potential in the Lane Johnson case

or outplayed what he was supposed to be. And a phrase that we mentioned last night, when you can continue to create excess value at that position, it becomes so incredibly important in saving money in some places, but also just having one of the league's best offensive lines every year when people are healthy, and that's what they've managed to do consistently. And he builds up depth. They have a plan.

And that's something with the team building, but obviously he's going to have a fingerprint all that. They draft a Cam Juergens. Jason Kelsey's getting old. Let's just get the guy that looked just like him in this last year's draft, and they have a plan. I'm sure he's developed the hell out of them. That's what the good coaching does is understanding all the ways that the bottom can fall out

or an injury can happen, but also just like developing these guys, getting guys reps when those opportunities do happen. Same with like Landon Dickerson. They kind of eased him into it last year and kind of like, okay, grew his game and you've got voted to the Pro Bowl this year. But it's that starts with Stoutland because it doesn't just happen by accident. A lot of coaching isn't just drill work and game plan adjustments. It's having plans.

It's that practice going. I want the right side two is to go with the left side one, so they work with Jason a little bit, just in case. I'm going to have this guard play at tackle. And you can obviously see it does it because when the injuries happen, there's nobody, there's never that kind of palms up moment. Like, what the hell are we doing? It's the same discussion we had with the Bengals.

When their offense line lost, it wasn't mentally losing. It was just physically losing. I always feel that with the Eagles. If you look at teams who are consistently successful over long periods of time, there are always these specific characters that were part of the story. Montes-Scarnaic with New England is the first guy that I go to. And there's going to be a couple of these that we talk about here with the Chiefs specifically because they're kind of on that Patriots track where they're in this game every single year.

But the Eagles, again, are two times in the last six years. And it's because of people like this. This is a through line. This is what's carried you through. Speaking of that, the next guy I wanted to talk about is Steve Spagnolo. Because it's so tempting with this Chief's team to just hammer away at, Mahomes and Reed and the offense and what they've been. But I think it's so important to remember that Steve Spagnola was not the defensive

coordinator of this team when Andy Reid took over, or even when Mahomes was there. When they lost in 2017, Bob Sutton was their defensive coordinator. That defense was bottom of the barrel. They could not stop anyone in that Patriots game, and they end up losing in the AFC championship game. You bring in a guy like Steve Spagnolla, who's obviously been a head coach, he's been a defense coordinator around the league forever. He was on those giant staffs where it was him and Ben McAdoo,

and it was the end of the Eli era, and we had the Eli Geno thing, and it was just all these different weird elements of that Giants era, and he kind of gets lost in that. And so when they hired him, I don't think it was this, oh, my God, I can't believe Steve Spagnola was available. And he's like, okay.

But what he has provided them is steadiness that is so crucial to being relevant this time of year every single year because they don't need to be a top five defense. They don't even need to be a top 10 defense. But having a guy who can consistently create excess value from certain position groups like the defensive backfield and bring you to the 15th best of defense in the league all the time with young players

and just shape that kind of unit, you need that to be a contender every single year and that's exactly what the chiefs have found. It's perfect. At first when he got there, it was classic Steve Spagnol, all the blitzing and how aggressive it is. It's been very cool.

And this makes sense, especially when he was with the Giants, is we say it, and this is the term we've used on the show many of times, is he's one of the best game-playing he coaches, week-to-week game-playing coaches. More data points he gets. Once he gets to the playoffs, especially, he knows how to just adapt his stuff. And that just speaks to, write that term right there,

adaptability. He's able to adapt what he does based on his personnel, even if it's not always pretty. Also playing all these young guys that we'll talk about in a sec, It kind of shows confidence that he's like, hey, this is going to work out in the end. This is the same discussion with Stoutland, playing younger guys to, like, grow their games and develop them. And live bullets really does matter. But I actually do think that this defense is slightly underrated.

We'll talk about this on the long show. The long show. It is, man. Last year, I think we clocked it in two hours. So. But on that show, on the X-L-Side show. The preview show is what we'll call it. The long show.

The long show. But anyways, is that this defense has kind of got a little underrated a little bit. And also, this is the best Chief's defense since he's gotten there since 2019. Since he's become that defense coordinator for the Chiefs, this is their best defense, even better than one that won the Super Bowl. And I think that's kind of gotten, Chris Jones, obviously, is getting some praise. I think it's kind of got brushed under the rug a little bit, that this defense is actually legitimately decent. It's not just like, oh, they're getting better.

It's like, this is a legit good defense that's going on. It might be a little too generous. But that speaks to him because they grew throughout, after the by week, they've done so many changes and adapted their defense, and it just shows up in the pudding. When you have that guy on the other side of the ball like Reed is, where he's the figurehead over there. And that was such an intentional thing that he chose to do when coming back to Kansas City.

He's like, I don't want to be the GM. I want to do this. He does the install meetings. The offense is his. He has ownership over it. Having someone on the other side of the ball that is a partner that you trust is so incredibly important when you're going to be the type of coach Andy Reid is now.

And that's exactly what Steve Spagnola is. Going and getting a guy who's in his 50s and he's been around and he's not necessarily seeking out the next head coaching job, he's done it before. And he's been like, all right, this guy is a defensive coordinator I can rely on year in and year out. Steve Spagnoll is like the exact type of figure that the chiefs needed in that moment and it's provided a lot of dividends over the last three years.

The term I want to use is maturity. Yes. And that's what it is. He's seen it all. Like, he's been around. He's seen different types of offenses come and go. And I think that's a great point because also with him getting there and just that, you know, there's something about with younger coaches is like, yes, they can bring innovation and they can bring fresh ideas and everything.

But sometimes they don't have the experience, the literal experience. They might, they just never had that when they were a coach or had to go through this injury or this offense is doing this to them. And sometimes as the head coach, you're like, okay, I can't like guide you along with everything. Everything, you know, young man, like you're saying, that helps, is that he can just go, okay, I don't ever have to go into a defense that's all day. I never have to go to Steve's bag. No, I'm just assuming, guys, I do not actually know this, but I'm assuming that he never has to go and like, what are you doing on third down, Steve?

Like, what the hell is this? It's like, he knows that it's going to be taken care of, especially as the season goes along. And the fact that they have such a history together, I think, is obviously a part of that. But you can just kind of feel it. Even, like, talking to him this week, he carries himself like a guy who's done this for a really, really long time. I don't know how to articulate it, but when you're having a conversation with him, it's like, oh, yeah, this guy's been a head coach in the NFL.

He's been doing this for a long, long time and feels like it. Yeah, presence. Yes, he has a real presence about him. That is totally real. Most of the coaches do, and then he was one. That's what you've got to remember. Yeah, it's, no, that's a great point. It's, I want to say it's just a confidence.

A lot of coaches are very confident, but it is. It's that kind of quiet confidence with him that he's like, yeah, this is another Super Bowl, and yep, we're here to win a game. He's not, oh, like, it's obviously because he's coaching them, but it's like, this is like, he has that maturity again with just how he carries himself. We've talked about this a little bit off mic this week just about how defensive coaches, you see a lot of older guys that stick around. And my, like, pet theory for this is that because defense is so dependent on problem solving,

if you have this huge encyclopedic knowledge of football history and you've had to solve all of these problems, like Belichick doing what he did to the Rams in the 2018 Super Bowl being something that he rolled out like 30 years earlier. That is so important on that side of the ball. And the fact that Steve Spagnos is like, yeah, I beat the 2007 Patriots in the Super Bowl. Like that kind of stuff and having those reps banked and those wins banked and that entire history on that side of the ball, it feels more important. So I think having a guy like that is just crucial to sustain success like the Chiefs have had.

Especially in the playoffs. And no, it's funny. having that credibility and going like, hey, I got this guys. Like, I'm going to be able to, that Super Bowl game playing, that's one of the most famous ones, but it's like he does this. He does this in the playoffs in late in seasons where it's just, he understands, like you said, he has the experience, he's seen all these how offenses have come and go. The problem solving aspect is so cool because there's only so many ways you can design plays

on offense and you might just sugarcoat it, and same on defense. And so that's the thing. He's like, it's having that kind of knowledge of going like, Oh, okay, yeah, that's right. The late 90s, you know, Vikings used to run this. Okay, boom, boom, boom. Okay, what do we run then? It helps.

It helps that when it's just, he has the experience as opposed to copying a clinic or listening to another coach going, what'd you do? And that really does matters. All right, so we're going to cheat for the first time here and do two guys because I do think they represent something fairly similar. And that's A.J. Brown and Hassan Redick. I like that. And it's a little bit different, but I think that the injection that they've provided

on their respective side of the ball has really transformed this Eagles team. And I don't want to step too much on the conversation that we're going to have tomorrow about the game. But watching this Eagles defense and watching this Eagles pass rush specifically with Reddick, it's amazing how much he's unlocked the rest of it. And Brandon Graham getting back healthy has also been really important for that. Like him, if you're trying to figure out, all right, this team had no sacks last year. How did they have 70 this year? Asan Reddick is probably the biggest part of that. But getting Graham back has been also been really important because what this team does is they do such an amazing job of creating

one-on-ones for their defensive linemen. And in Reddick, they have someone who just has won those one-on-ones over and over and over and over again. And the simplicity they can play with on defense because of the impact that he can have has been a defining characteristic of who this team has been on that side of the ball, and that's not possible without him. The goal always, and it always cracks me up, like when see people like keys to the game and it's always or always one top one of defense when rushing with four and it's like well easier said than dodd like actually doing that in the actual game the eagles can do it they can rush for they can spin these guys and redick is part of that how many teams have good or better right tackles on their teams not a lot and that's an advantage

I would say no matter what just blank 12 weeks a year if not more he's going to have an advantage every time he's rushing the passer on that right side offensive right side I'm an offensive a guy, sorry, I'm going to go with the offense. He is on their offense's right side. Defensive left side. But it is having rushing with four, getting that in the rotation, and having this many good pass rushers, not just Reddick, too, is that no one can get just chip helped. Like one guy, one guy can't get isolated.

If it's just one good fast pressure. Take it easy. Take it easy. Yeah. You're getting ahead of yourself here. It's hard. But going back, when I was with the Raiders, we had Khalil Mack and then Bruce Irvin was our kind of second best pass rush.

And he was fine. is not Bruce at his peak. And that's the thing is other teams could just go, oh, we just stopped Khalil. And then they can't get us. And if you look at our sack tolls that kind of like reflected on that. But same with this, is that now you got Redick that unlocks all the other guys. The trickle-down effect of just, it's like building offensive lines. It's not just that one offense alignment.

It's having five good starters is the goal. The Eagles actually did it. They actually have a lot of these guys. And Redick guys kind of like personifies that. There was, he had two sacks this year where he was lined up as the three-tops. technique and they ran a stunt where he like looped around the center and won the first one they did I watched a lot of Eagles defensive line on the last week the first one was against the Steelers and when it happened I had like a guttural reaction watching the play I was like oh my god

he plays with his hair on fire he plays with an unbelievable amount of like fuck you energy and I think that that has trickled down to every other part of that defensive line I know that he plays linebacker it trickles down to every aspect of that pass We know. That is, I think, has become something that, however you can coach it into them, and we watch the Niners and they play like that, and you watch the Jets and they play like that. And I think that that mentality is just, it imbues the best defenses in the league now. And I think that he was a huge part of reestablishing that among this group of Eagle's defensive players.

And sometimes that's what happens. And again, making a 2016 Raiders reference. Well, when Colaccio Semley got with the Raiders and now it just evolved that whole unit. Now everyone's like, they have like a, now they're like, oh, wow, we're badasses. Oh, this is great. Sometimes you just need that one guy to kind of unlock that personality. And usually it's the guy that's one of the best players on that unit that kind of leads. It has to be.

And there has to be at least a really productive dude, and he backs it up. And the fact that I still astounds me that, like, he was, yes, they paid him a decent amount, but it's like still like, compared to what he should be getting paid, how valuable sacks are. And with the trickle down he has on everybody else, it's like he's worth a lot of money. And that's why I think that this is something, it's like a no sap doctrine adjacent thing where you look at his rate pass rushing stats over the last two years. He's right there in the top of the league. In 2021 it wasn't as high.

Like if you look at pass rush productivity or some of those PFF numbers. But in 2020 when he was in Arizona, that stuff doesn't really lie. Yeah. Like if you look at those numbers, they're actually really predictive. Yeah. Trey Hendrickson has been on the top of the league with that. that kind of stuff. All of the best guys rate the best at those.

So the fact that he was up there, I guarantee you the Eagles and this analytically bent front office, let's call it that, we're very aware of that. And so just saying, all right, this is what he does in this role. This is going to project. Pass rushing projects.

This is the guy to bet on. It brings me to the other guy I want to talk about here. Good players just become good players. We'll figure out how we use them later. And that's what the AJ Brown thing is to me. where the fit didn't necessarily apparent right away with the way the Eagles passing game was built last year, where AJ Brown wins. And we sent so much time this summer, at least I did, being like, how is this going to work? You know, not that I didn't have necessarily doubts that it would, but how is this going to work in practice?

And what it looks like is very, very different than any of us anticipated. We've talked about this. AJ Brown from 2019 through 2021, his first three seasons in the league. had 15 receptions of 20 plus area yards combined over those three years. This season, he had 13 of them. Just this year. And so the Eagles were kind of cycling through different receivers. They tried to go get Calvin Ridley on the trade market.

They tried to sign Alan Robinson. And they eventually landed on AJ Brown. And it was as simple as we just need a dude. We just need one of the dudes to help unlock everything. And that's exactly what he's done for them. He's scheme proof, which is the best, that's always the best compliment I have for players. And that's receiver, my receiver evaluations, even in the draft, sometimes I can be this thinking too much, is that, because there's so much that receivers rely on, the quarterback getting the ball, good play calls, all that.

The guys are just scheme proof, it's like, yeah, no matter what they run, he's going to be good. AJ Brown is that. And I think that's a huge compliment. That's also just like, even with Reddick, that's why maybe the pass rushing is scheme proof. Because no matter what, it's going to be, he has the same goal. rush the passer. Okay, line out the same spot. Okay, let's go get it.

So same thing with A.J. Brown, though, and I agree with you. We've talked about this a few times is that I thought, okay, he catches a lot of end breakers. How is he going to just be as a vertical go ball guy? He's awesome. Yeah, and he's really good. And I, that's the thing.

He is scheme proof. That's the best compliment for the receiver. And again, it's a trickle-down. Now Devante Smith, even though he can be now. He doesn't have to be the guy always. And he's like probably one of the best number twos in the league. and really it would be a number one for a lot of other teams but now having a.J. Brown kind of take the load off him

trickle down again to his other teammates and benefiting them. I think that what I've learned, we've talked about this over, even though over the last month on that lesson show we did is go get the playmakers and it's that Jeff Goldblow thing, like life finds a way. Yeah. Like go get the playmakers.

Your offense will evolve to the point that it needs to. Yes. And I, that's, even when that trade happened, I was like, I don't know, like how much better could they get? A hat on a hat kind of thing. And that's what it felt like. And A.J. Brown wasn't that. But I think there was still different kinds of questions about how it would all come together.

And don't worry about it. Just don't worry about it. Yeah. It's all going to work out great. I know. It's been even better. I knew it would be kind of fun. Like, okay, A.J. Brown is a good player.

We have gushed about him. He's the yak monster. That's the fact that it's like, oh, yeah, some of these great players have other aspects to their game that they just weren't asked to do. Yes. And that's what's really cool sometimes, seeing these guys in different situations. Like watching Matthew Stafford last year, our quarterback, ripping balls out of empty and ripping all, I was like, I've never, I've seen them rip these throws, but not like this. Sometimes they just haven't been asked.

It's like, can or won't thing. And it's like, yeah, he can. I think it's understanding a player as a catalyst potentially and having imagination when looking at them. Yeah. I think that was the key with both of those guys. Yes. All right. It is time now for the Visa game changing moment presented by Visa, proud sponsor of Super Bowl 57.

The game-changing moment here is Travis Kelsey's entire career because it has felt game-changing, okay? So I was looking at some of the numbers now over just his entire time in the NFL since 2014, which was his first season as a starter, okay? Travis Kelsey since 2014 has the fourth-most receiving yards of any player in the NFL. The only guy with more receiving yards than him over that stretch,

Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, Mike Evans. Wow. Okay? He's third in receiving touchdowns over that stretch. He is second in receiving first downs. The only player over that time period that has more receiving first downs than Travis Kelsey is DeAndre Hopkins. He is second in first downs per target over that span. The only player that has more than him or is higher than him in that is Michael Thomas.

He's eighth in first downs per route run. He's just shattered what we understand about modern pass catchers and what they can be within a offense and this is more a topic in the fantasy community but one that I was listening to because I like fantasy football this off season it's like he's got a tail off at some point right like and last year I think that people thought they were starting to see that the signs of that like maybe he was on a slight decline where it wasn't reasonable to draft Travis Kelsey with the eighth pick in your fantasy draft guess what if you did that this year you probably won your fantasy league probably doing great and his ability to just

redefine and change the game at that position and from what we can expect of guys kind of shaping your offense, I think it's almost been more apparent this year than ever because more has been put on him this year than ever within this structure of the Patrick Mahomes-led chiefs. Right? In 2014, we knew how important Travis Kelsey was because they didn't throw a touchdown pass through a receiver an entire season. Yes. But that had changed since Tyree got there. And the fact that this has been the number one offense in the league is a testament to who Patrick Mahomes is and to who Andy Reid is. But it's also a testament to who Travis Kelsey is.

Yes, I mean, he's whenever we've talked about receivers and Justin Jefferson, Tyreek Hill, and Devante Adams, and how defenses will literally change their coverages. We talk about game planning coverages and game playing defensive coordinators. Those guys make defense coordinators do this. Hey, this is they round man coverage? Yeah, well, we're playing Justin, we have to run cover too. That's what Travis Kelsey does.

How many times teams run two man against them, try and just beat them up and press them, have a guy, if you watch out of the Bengals last week or two weeks ago now, the AFC championship game, how they were, they have two guys with eyes on him on every snap. That's the gravity of it. And I thought the same thing. I thought this year, because I was like, okay,

I was very bullish on this offense, but I was like, Travis Kelsey has to take that little half step. You know, he's going to get hurt. He's 33 now, we're about to be 34. Obviously, that's how age works. But he's playing, I thought it was really smart too All the tight ends they used with Noah Gray When Blake Bell came back and Fortsin

It let him kind of save some snaps Yes And save some grueling snaps Yes And because they don't ask them I think with Kelsey and Tyree Kill We've hinted at this and talked about this I think that Bengals game especially last year

Really made the Chiefs evolve And eat their vegetables and be like No we have to be more sound with our stuff They were just deferring to that 1x3 formation Where Kelsey's the X receiver They just kept doing it. And the hills in the slot. We'll just do that.

Every time it's not crunch time, it's third and eight. Okay, that's where we're getting into. Now you see Andy Reed getting some creativity back. He got his groove back a little bit this year. And it's almost by going back to the basics of how he used the tight end. As a hip guy, they'll go into three tight end looks and then motion them into the slot. All these kind of cool things. But on top of it, using better, yeah, like you said, growing snaps.

It's more highway miles than city miles. And on top of it, he's only playing 80% of the snaps, which is his lowest since his second year as a starter, I believe. His first years are started with 66% of the snaps. So it's the first time he's kind of like he's dropping off the snaps because they're saving his legs. And I think that's why he just continues to just be an absolute dynamic threat. So we obviously know that Travis Kelsey is one of the best players in the league. He's been one of the best head ends in the league.

He's been first or second team all pro each of the last seven seasons. Okay. I think that it's not about what's going to happen on Sunday or even what's happened over the last couple games. I think it's about the totality of what he's done. At a certain point, if this continues, We're going to have to start talking about Travis Kelsey as like one of the greatest players in NFL history. Right. And I don't think that's crazy to say.

No. So I was looking at some of the first 10 years of their career numbers. And for Travis, that's actually kind of skewed because his first year he didn't play at all. So even these numbers are a little bit off. So in the first 10 seasons, he has 10,300 receiving yards. No tight end ever had more than 9,000. That's right. He has 547 receiving first downs in his first 10 years.

I believe no other tight end was above like 475. Even if we're trying to account for statistical inflation in the modern era, what he has done at that position, the consistency of it, the production element of it, and how large it looms. The fact that this is Super Bowl number three, the fact that he's part of an all-time great team, I still kind of think of Travis Kelsey as 2014-15, Travis Kelsey,

where he's fun and he's doing the dances and he's like this young, exciting player. But he has built a legacy for himself that, like, truly makes him beyond like a Hall of Fame player, which is almost hard for me to imagine because I just remember standing next to him at Coachella six months ago. But he's just, he's like an old guy now who has built this unbelievable Hall of Fame resume for himself. And it's a classic everybody knows what's coming. Every third down, you know where Mahomes' eyes are going. It's like, still got to stop it. And teams can't.

It's a remark. When teams know what's coming and they have a whole game plans designed and it still happens, it's like that's what great players do. They're scheme records. They're game records. That's what they call them. But I think that I'm with you. You know, for me, the best tight ends of all time are him and Gronk.

Like, Gronk is just, it was unbelievable flash. But Tony Gonzalez numbers are wild, by the way. I was looking at both. It's like, holy shit. Chiefs I've had both of these guys. How about that? Like, Tony, Tony Gonzalez and Kelsey. Like, I mean, just, it's unbelievable that this franchise gets these guys.

But I, I, watching Kelsey and I think what you're saying to do is, like, best overall player or better, one of the better overall players of all time, because it matters. It's the, that's the thing is the modern NFL. These guys are more hybridy with what they're asked to do. Yes, he blocks and he has to pull and do all those things. But he's getting used just like an ex-receiver. And it's- And his production is in line with those guys. though. The fact that he's up there with those guys

and his numbers are like Mike Evans' numbers is a tight end. It doesn't matter if it's in a different era. Exactly. And Bellar and I, we did our gambling show earlier and he was, you know, he's on a lot of Kelsey overs and he just broke down all of his playoff numbers and all the playoff games and it's hilarious. It's actually hilarious.

Like every, it's seven catches, nine catches, 11 catches, eight catches, seven, 100 yards, two touchdowns. And that's the playoffs, especially against the best teams. That's the point Bell was making. It's like, even though everyone knows it's coming, he's still as productive. That's what he is now. He's that type of threat.

When you have these guys who kind of become these figures in NFL history, the way that the chiefs are now in a similar way, I've compared them to the Patriots a lot recently because that's what it feels like to me, where they're just around. And now they're just these fixtures and these huge moments that are historical. You need these little bits of serendipity to arrive at that place. And the fact that Mahomes and Kelsey have this unbelievable football marriage

that's almost cosmic is one of the coolest aspects of it. I was rewatching the Titans game because I thought the Titans played them well and said, what can we pick up on? And there was a play that didn't even count. There was a penalty on it. I can't remember what the penalty was exactly, but Mahomes breaks the pocket, and Kelsey is running to the right sideline.

And as he sees Mahomes escape the pocket, he puts the brakes on and breaks all the way back inside. And it's just this mind-mell telepathy. And Mitch just talked about this all the time. It's not a new idea, but every time I'm reminded of it, I'm reminded of just how special and rare it is. And that special rare aspect has fueled what you see over the last five years. Yeah. I mean, the fourth down sprint-out touchdown against the Bengals was like that right there.

Barnwell described it perfectly. It said it was like an entry pass in basketball because Kelsey just boxed. But the fact that the quarterback's like, yeah, I know I can throw it here and you're going to come down with it. That it's just unbelievable. The mind meld is the fact that Andy Reeves. who is a very detailed coach, lets them have their own little playtime. Hey, go figure out your guys as well.

That's what you lets them do. It's unbelievable for an old coach. That's how good they are when the old coaches go, yeah, yeah, you guys do what you do because it works. And it's really, really hard to defend. All right. So the next guy you wanted to talk about happens to be related to the guy that we just discussed.

Yes, it's Travis Kelsey's podcast partner. And that's Jason Kelsey. No, it's so annoying. How good they are, right? Yeah, I know. Jason Kelsey being a better podcaster than me, six months in his podcasting. career is just, it's hard-breaking.

They're actually, like, even when, like, Travis gives, like, the ad reads and everything, or, like, hey, make sure you click and subscribe and, like, why are you so smooth with this? Like, it's like he's, like, like, it's probably, like, a million times. But, uh, but what Jason Kelsey is, I mean, not only just, I know the QB sneak play has been kind of like the main play of the Eagles, that's kind of, like, people are identifying with him this year. But ever since he's entered the league and been a starter, he's been a one-of-one player. Yes.

It is center play. There's been athletic centers, and there's other, there's been others of this type over the years. But what they asked them to do, and it's been different schemes. Yes, Stoutland's been there for long, long, long chunks of it. But when Chip Kelly was there, how many times they were running pinpole plays and getting Jason Kelsey out in space and those beautiful screens, every coach realized, hey, let's, let's use that. This guy's really good at it. He's really athletic. But that's what he unlocks so much. Talking about Stoutland and how he's able to adapt his run game, that's why, Jason Kelsey is why he's able to do it. He can pull him. He can do zone blocks with him. He knows

he's going to ID guys. He's what you want in the center. He actually changes the math for you because of how he can move and what a great athlete he is. I was talking to Brendan Daly earlier this week, who's the linebacker's coach for the Chiefs. He's been another fixture at the Super Bowl.

He was the Patriots defensive line coach for years, so he just is here every year in some capacity. So I was talking to him about Jason Kelsey specifically in a couple of the plays from the Niners game in the NFC Championship. And we were talking about some of the different approaches they have to serve. fronts and looks. And he's like, I don't know this for certain, but it sure seems like he just

makes those calls at the line of scrimmage, where based on the front that you're in, that's how they decide to block it. You know how hard that is to deal with where the offense can change the way they're blocking a play based on what your front is because the center can do anything. That is a huge part of the shape-shifting element to what the Eagles are. You say one-of-one. he's a one-of-one player that creates a one-on-one version of an offense when you can do that kind of stuff. And that autonomy that he has is created by his physical skill set, obviously. But also just the game is in the palm of his hand all of the time. And I don't think you can overstate how important that is.

Watch how quickly he makes his calls. Like it's not just a physical aspect. Like you're saying, it's the mental aspect with him is that he gets his eyes up, boom, points done, and he's already moving on. And also, like you're talking about that he's able to adjust the. blocks and change what their call is based on the front. What's so cool about that or like what's remarkable and why people like should appreciate line play is that they do this in real time. They see what the front is.

They're doing this as I listen to the cadence or whatever the foot is. And then have to have the head up. They have to do the flick. They have to be aware of the clock as well. And they have to watch safety rotations. They have to look up pressures. They do all this. And especially in the run game too.

But that's how remarkable he is like mentally. Like I'm sure his spatial awareness is outstanding as well. Like if you tested it. It's just a really cool player to watch because just his skill set is so just like I said one of one. I know it's probably been done to death in other

football media which I haven't consumed this week because there's no way to do it. The brothers thing it is silly and like it's the Kelsey Bowl and everything. The idea that these two guys who grew up together have redefined the positions in the NFL and their respective generations is fucking awesome. Yeah, it's insane. I know. The mom seems so

sweet. When they showed the page, she gave them cookies. Did you see that? I did see that. She sent them cookies in a little to-go container, which I thought was really sweet as well. Even if they were just good players or like pro-ball players and they were in this game, that would be cool.

But this idea that they have reshaped our ideas of what that position can do in an NFL game in the modern era is unbelievable. It's like when they always do, what you're saying is that not only that they're both like year after year perennial all pros, but it's, for whatever reason, this came to my brain, whenever they would say, which pair of hockey players or brothers have the most points? It would be Wayne Gretzky and his brother. Because Wayne Gretzky is so little. And his brother had like 20 points in his career.

But it's like, this is a little different. It's actually like, no, these guys are both remarkable players. I know. Good genes. Like, man, it's just unbelievable. All right. Something in the water in New Heights or whatever is Cleveland Heights. Next one here.

You wanted to talk about the Chiefs Rookies, which is like five guys, but this is our podcast. And we can do what we want. wherever you want because I couldn't just pick one. Originally, he was going to start with Jalen Watson, and that was just his play. Stay 3 dB is remarkable enough, much less a seventh round corner playing rookie. They actually played fine.

The T. Higgins' dunk would happen to any corner in the NFL last week. T. Higgins, that was like the best high-pointing up seen. The other guys get paid too. There are good players. He is very, very, very good of football. Jalen Watson is a good. He's a solid starter. I'm not going to say like, oh, man, this guy should be a rookie throwball or anything.

But the fact that that's a solid seventh round corner, that's unbelievable. But on top of that, Isaiah Pacheco and his emergence throughout the season, Isaiah Pacheco had like 200 yards at Rutgers last year. He wasn't even on my list at Bleacher Report when I was doing the running backs. He was so off the grid and he had great traits. But his emergence, and you can see his game kind of like his mental side really coming into his own, especially in past protection stuff. Still a little dicey.

We'll talk about that tomorrow. And on top of it, other guys. Brian Cook, playing at safety. What unlocks the Chiefs able to run dime? And then George Carl Loftus is coming into his own as well as the season. Another part of, he doesn't have to be the guy. It's just another part of the Chief's pass rush. Another thing we'll talk about in the long show.

But it's just all these guys have not only been fine contributors. They're like, you know, plus players. Like they're actually changing what the Chiefs can do on defense especially. And honestly, props, I know we're going to talk about a second, but this is on top of the rookies they had last year. Creed Humphrey, Trace Smith, Nick Bolton, even Noah Gray. So it's a couple really just this young nucleus. Are any of them like star stars?

Okay, we'll see. But, you know, Creed Humphrey, you know, and all that. Trey Smith is very good. We'll see what Carl Office. But it's like finding solid starters throughout the draft and all these young guys. It's like that's why the chiefs are here. On top of Mahomes and all that. They needed this and they hit it.

Those guys individually obviously deserve a lot of credit. But when you look at what they've done with the young players at multiple different positions, it's an organizational win. and I say that on a couple different levels. One, we've talked about Jeff Stoutland. Andy Heck is also a very, very good offensive line coach. What they've been able to get out of their offensive line with Andy Heck there? I mean, really the only game where it's like, oh, man, the Chiefs' offensive line really bit it today

was that Tampa game in the Super Bowl where they didn't have any players. That was it. So when they've even, Mitchell Schwartz was kind of a big ticket free agent guy, and Eric Fisher was a first round pick, obviously. He's the number one overall pick. But they've pieced it together for the most part outside of, that. And their ability to consistently get good offensive line play, and this is the best one they've had. This is the best offensive line, I think, top to bottom that they've had here,

but their ability to make the best of that position group in a similar way that the Eagles do has been a defining trait of the Andy Reid era. Dave Merritt is the defensive backs coach and the secondary coach for the Chiefs. His ability to kind of consistently do this with rotating guys. We've talked about him a lot recently. But the last guy is Brett Veach in the front office. And this has been written about and talked about a, I think for a few different years now, but Albert Breer wrote about it in M&Cabee this week, about how they started planning for the Mahomes deal almost immediately. Like when as soon as they saw him in practice, it's like, this guy's going to get a

$500 million contract and we have to figure out what we're going to do. Can you imagine them sitting on their hands that whole year when he sat out just like, oh my God, oh my God, wait until people get a little of this shit. And that's what happened. I mean, that must have been what it felt like. I remember, sorry, but like it reminds me when Joel Embed was coming back from injuries and everyone's like, just wait, just wait until this guy's healthy. Like, just wait, that's kind of what felt like with Mahomes, too.

And you look at what those early years were like, okay? So they make the Frank Clark trade in April of 2019. So we're right on the heels of the Mahomes MVP season. And it's like, okay, we only got such a window when he's making 18 cents on the dollar. How do we maximize that version of the team? We can argue with whether the Frank Clark move is a good trade. Like they won Super Bowl. I won a Super Bowl.

It all turned out fine. But they took huge swings in those moments when they had excess resources because they did. And then you get into this stage of it, it's like, okay, now we need to hit some dice rolls because of the way the quarterback is going to pay and the way that this team is constructed. And what they've been able to do with Jalen Watson, with Creed Humphrey, with Trey Smith, with Legerius Sneed. The linebackers are both young players on cheap deals. That's necessary. It is. Like, you need to be able to start doing that when the quarterback gets paid,

and that is a testament to the front office not only finding those guys, because the draft is always going to be hit or miss. Always. It's about understanding that we need to change our team-building philosophy because we have entered a different phase of who we are as an organization, and I think that that deserves a lot of recognition. It does. And like you said, some of the swings haven't all worked out,

but it's like you understand why. There's a lot of like, when it makes sense, the process makes sense at least. And, I mean, even the Orlando Brown trade, when you're picking 28 to 32 every year because you're a quarterback and how good you're going to be every single year, you know, you're not going to find that real dude. Yes, you can find like a T.J. Watt and all that. But typically, no. But he's getting creative and going, like, I can't find a left tackle.

I just pick whatever it was, 29 or whatever it was, 31, that they did that year. They trade to the Ravens. But it's like, okay, I can find a tangible left tackle. And you can say how good he is or whatever. This guy's a tangible starter. You weren't finding that with that pick. So some creativity as well. and what he's able to do.

It's not just through the draft. It's using the resources to find different answers. But I think this next step, I mean, these last two classes they had, it's up there with anybody's. They've done a really, really good job of just keeping the comfort full. And the Atlanta Brown trade, you know, he didn't send him to an extension. And so you can think, oh, man, you gave up a lot for a guy that you might just let walk. They got two years of quality left tackle play, at least solid left tackle play.

And the offensive line. I mean this is a common, my guys. Like, this is not a good guy. That's what you need at that position. So they have $13 million in cap spaces. It currently sits that they want to go out and figure out how they're going to solve that position. If they want to bring him back, whatever it ends up looking like. But using the franchise tag on the left tackle is a good financial decision because it's all offensive linemen.

So on the franchise tag is the left tackle. The best left tackles in the league make $23 million now. You're paying that guy $16 million. So ultimately, even if they don't retain him, I still think it ends up becoming a good move. I do too. So talking about team building and shaping and all that, the next guy I think we have to discuss is Howie Roseman. And we've talked about him a lot in our award shows, you know, with Bow and Zach this week. But I still think it's worth revisiting just what the team building job that he did looks like. And just around every single corner is something that you forget. Like,

oh yeah, I forgot they did that. Yeah. I forgot they found this pick here. They found this guy there. And I think it was Bo said something I thought was really astute earlier this week. He said how he's better at building teams than he is at maintaining teams. I like that. And he's very good at building the teams. And what they've been able to do in constructing this roster is truly remarkable because they don't really have that many weaknesses and they have a lot of strengths. Yeah.

And like true game-breaking strengths. Not just like, oh, yeah, that's fine. Like we just talked about Orlando Brown. A fine left tackle. it's like, no, these kids are very good players. It's like watching like a baseball player on a hitting streak or something like that or a basketball player that's, you know, doing a heat check. Like it's just they've nailed so many moves in a row.

Like just every trade has worked out great. Like even like taking a pick with like Jordan Davis and it was like Jordan Davis, we all knew it was going to kind of, it's a hard position to play as a rookie. Now some injuries and everything is like you understood that process as well. Everything has made sense. The Devante Smith moves and, you know, they're going back and coming back up for it. It all made sense. double after double after a home run after single after double there hasn't been any like true misses

these trades on top of it before the season started like that it's not only just getting on base it's like those are like significant like runs created that howie roseman has found i love that line though he's i think maybe just because when he's building the team he kind of can go like oh i can use this for this i can use it like it's like he like he likes to cook it maybe not as much as tasty and i also think that there's he's had there are moments where i think he's become I'm attached to certain guys. Yeah. I think that would, it totally makes sense.

But when he's starting from scratch, I think that's the best version of him in this job. But even when there are misses, like, there are always going to be misses. Yeah. You know, like Jalen Rager is going to happen to everyone.

Yes. And the idea that they drafted Jalen Rager or picked before drafting Justin Jefferson and they're still in this position. And it doesn't really matter. That's what being a general manager in the NFL is. It's about being, able to sustain those mistakes and sustain whatever foul periods are going to come because

they are inevitable. As long as your process outside of those is consistent and proactive and kind of unceasing in the way that the Eagles are, you're eventually going to dig yourself out of those holes and that's exactly what they've done. It's just all about the bites of the apple. I mean, it really is. And also just like, it's all about, it's also just like betting. Like all these, every move you make, every deal you sign, I mean, just in life in general, but especially in football and team building, it's like even play calling, it's 70% of time this will work. Sometimes you craps out. Sometimes it's like, yes, all the math worked out, everything. You know, even when they signed Mahomes, the chiefs did, a huge deal. You never know. He's as sure thing as you can get, but it's like, you never know. Trevor Lawrence has a prospect. You never know. Like, you never know with this. These are all educated bets.

And that's the thing is right now he's hot at the dice table. And like he's in, every. single one. He's hit number after number, point after point. And I think that's where it is. We're not even, I've even thought about the raker trade. Like in months. Yeah, why would you? In months, because they've done so much. And that's what life as a GM is. It's not just the one game on Sunday. It's every game

on Sunday. And the next year's Sundays, too. It's just getting a window, like, into his process. And he clearly see how he thinks. And like, he's just always thinking about the one more thing. Always thinking about the one more thing. The Linval-Jose signing to me is like a perfect example where

It's like, how can we get 1% better, 2% better? How can I solve this problem? Where can I find this guy? And that's always how he's been. And sometimes it's gone off the rails. But eventually you're going to get back on if you operate that way. Wellness to change your process is you've got to be credit for it. Having that self-awareness going, okay, I got to change this or I got to do this better.

And he does it time and time again. Next guy I wanted to talk about is somebody that I picked for a defensive player of the year a couple weeks ago. And every single moment I feel better about that based on the way that he's been playing. Chris Jones. And the reason I wanted to talk about Chris Jones here is that I've always been so interested in this with these teams that are fixtures and they're around every single year and the ways that they change. Now, this is always the huge Bill Belichick thing, right? Like, we don't talk about last year because this is a different team. Yes. And you have to, and I think that that mantra and that mindset serve the Patriots very well, but also you have to be a different version of yourself

every single year in order to stave off regression and make sure that you're staying ahead of the curve. And the team that I always, the Patriots have examples of this, right, where different guys rose and fell with each, like, every one guy, like, there was a year where, like, Dorel Revis was, like, a huge part of who they were. And that's not a great example because he wasn't on the team for that, for multiple years. But there were years where Dante Hightower felt like an all pro player, and then sometimes he was just there.

Yeah. And the Seahawks are the best example of this for me, where, It felt like every year during the Seahawks, like DVOA 4P, there was a different defensive player who was the best player. Right. So in 2011, 2012, it probably felt like Earl Thomas. And then in 2013, maybe it felt like Richard Sherman. And then there was a year where Bobby Wagner was the best defense player on the team.

And there was a year where Michael Bennett felt like the most valuable player on the team. And this is the Chris Jones year. Right. Like this is of the Chiefs kind of run here. This may be the year where Chris Jones is on the Travis Kelsey. level. He is on a level as high as anybody that's not Patrick Mahomes. And in order to be a team that's

consistently competing for and potentially winning Super Bowls, you need those risers and followers. And he embodies that to me right now. Yes. It's, oh man, he's so freaking good. Like watching him, rewatching that game and seeing him just pin his ears back. Like every time he knows when third outs are coming or he knows when he has

an advantage. He knows the line calls. He knew when the guys where the Bengals were polling. There's a TFL he got that I could think of. I love that. aspect that you're bringing up. And when we did our genealogy project, it was like a reminder. It's like, oh, yeah, Chandler Jones. He was with the Patriots.

Like, no, just stuff like that. You forget these guys are going to come and go. And that's what happens with sustained success as well, is that like, because they're in your forefront of your mind, I know way too much about the Chiefs, just because they've been good for so much since we've been doing this show. Yeah, that's just how it goes, man. So you're talking, talk and talking.

I know everything, every aspect. It's like the Warriors. I know, like, for, I knew what their ninth man was, because when you're good, these guys come to the forefront. But on top of that, when you have an amazing player like this, it's like you kind of appreciate it a little more because he gets lost in the dust a little bit of how the chiefs are discussed. So it was a great call. I don't know if we have video on my face when you named the pick because it still, it still shocked me. But it was like it made sense because if you especially watch him in the playoffs, I know it's a regular season award.

But watch that do in the playoffs. And it's like he's taking over games. And that, yeah, that's worth noting. When thinking about the chiefs and who they are, I would list off five things in other years before I'd get to the defense. And now it feels like Chris Jones' ability to win in the run game, to win one-on-ones as a pass-rusher. It feels like one of the most important aspects of this entire game

that we're about on Shepots on Sunday. Yes, it is. And so it just, again, his prominence within this little space just feels bigger than ever. We're hyping them up right now, and it cannot be emphasized how freaking good. good he is, but this is how the credit goes is. Right now, as we're recording, I'm staring at a huge poster over the Super Bowl. It's Jalen Hertz, Jason Kelsey, Patrick Mahomes, and the other

chiefs players, Juju Smithsuster. It's not Chris Jones. It's not anything like that. So if you want to talk about recognition right then and there is a great example of what happens sometimes of how these guys can kind of not be in the limelight, even though, like, us nerds are like, yeah, watch this guy. He's so freaking good. And so I think that's why this needs to be acknowledged a little bit. Do you know what Chris Jones's cap hit is this season? Oh, man. 22? 14. Million dollars? Yeah, I just threw a number out there. It's 29. He makes $29 million against the cap.

He's making 14% of the salary cap. Okay. Do you know how good you have to be for us to not bring that up every week? Be like, man, Chris Jones is making $29 million. You don't even know. You didn't even think about it. No. That's how good he. he's been this year. Yeah, I didn't know that. I know what Frank Hark's cap it was last year. Because it was like 30, wasn't it? Yeah.

Yeah, we talked about it all the time. But that's the difference. And that, that to me, is the best way to kind of explain how good he's been is that we don't think or talk about it. 14% of the captain's like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, yeah, yeah. He was probably the best defense player in football. He destroyed his game. Sounds great. Make it 30.

All right. I love that. The last two guys we're going to talk about here are the coaches. Obviously, they do. done as big a job as anyone in shaping what this game looks like. Let's start with Nick Siriani, who I said this earlier when I was talking to Bowenzac in the week. What Julian Love said on Good Morning Football about Brian Dable versus Nick Siriani

and how Nick Siriani is on the gravy train right now because of all the good players, I'm guilty of that. I am guilty of thinking that. I am guilty of looking at Nick Siriani that way. He wasn't my coach of the year. He probably wasn't the first, like, in the first two or three guys that I mentioned, because of how many good players that they have, but they outperform their Vegas win total

by more than any other team in the league this year. If you look at certain statistical aspects and analytics numbers about the value he created decision-making wise, time-out usage, fourth-down decisions. He was at pretty much at the top of all of those charts. The vision to help shape the offense into this chameleon-like thing that we appreciate it. He has a huge hand in that.

The notion and the feel that this team really likes each other that plays like that. He does all of that stuff. And so the lesson for me with the Siriani stuff is don't let first impressions shadow how you're going to think about these guys. Because we all remember the press conference. And these guys can be found in places that don't seem super obvious. Like the Colts offensive coordinator wasn't the hot head coaching candidate. When they hired Nick Seriani, I was like, oh, shit, man, they got Nick Seriani. Even if you knew who he was.

And what he's developed into as a head coach and what he creates and just the value that he has to this franchise is undeniable at this point. No, absolutely. The fourth down stuff is right then and there. It's just that confidence they have. It's every drive, the offense knows, okay, we're doing this, this and that. And again, it's, we've come a table about doing this and him saying, oh, I'm a head coach, but I'm not going to call place and everything. Well, Siriani should get that credit too.

It's like he understood. Like, I'm not going to be the wizard. This is a lot. I'm going to just be a head coach and be a CEO. And yeah, and you see what's happening and you see the confidence they have. I'm telling you, there's a time they show the sideline. I know I do this all the time where they show like one little sideline clip, and I extrapolate it and I have all these connotations about it.

But they showed him on the sideline. He was talking to section about what they're going on Fort Down. And he goes, okay, you're good with that? Okay. But how they talked, and it was the third. downplay was about to go and you would have no idea that was like this huge third and seven or whatever it was but it was like the communication right then and there that little community there was no screaming there's no like ah like panic there's never a panic with this team of course they've had a lot of

huge leads but he shouldn't be dinged for that like because he's helped it the jacks game is the one that always brought was the example was that he added a field goal just by going for a fourth down that many times as far as expected points that matters that's to the coaching and that's why he should get credit for it. When I was there this summer at training camp, I got to sit with him and with Shane Steichen for a little bit. And just the feeling of that conversation, like, just the, those chats always feel different depending on where you are.

And you can kind of get an inflated or distorted sense of, like, where teams are because some guys are, like, overly confident and it doesn't end up coming to fruition. It's not that they were confident. There was just a calmness. Yeah, calmness. about like their interplay with each other. And just like that conversation where I was just like, these guys are clearly so comfortable with the dynamic here,

the way that they kind of feel going to work every day. Like even in the moment before, I thought they were going to be really good. But before knowing they were going to be this good, that was apparent. And I think that you can tell he kind of sets that in the building, which again is so far removed from our first impression of him as head coach. Oh my God, I thought he was in over his head.

I was like, this guy, oh, you never know. I mean, the fact there's, no one remembers a lot of press conferences unless the guy calls a shot. Like, Barry Alvarez has the famous press conference when he came to Wisconsin. He's like, you better get your season tickets now or it's going to be hard to get him in a few years, wherever the line was. Okay, that's badass. That's cool.

And then you remember the really bad ones. And usually it's because over the years, that guy usually ended up being a joke. Adam Gase. Yeah, it's crazy eyes case. Like, you remember that because you're like, oh, there's no way this. going to work. And even with the Eagles and like, okay, this is a well-run organization, okay, well, this might get ugly if they're really going for this kind of guy. But it's worked out great. Everybody's in lockstep in that franchise. It's top the bottom. All right. The

last guy I want to talk about, and not from like a nuts and bolts football perspective, we know, maybe we can't start there. I want to talk about Andy Reid. And let me ask you, how has your opinion of Andy Reid changed, if at all, this year? It really hasn't Okay It really hasn't It really hasn't I

My, okay When I Up until the last Mahomes Which that usually Helms I guess opinion Changed

Is strong Yeah What have you Learned about Andy Reed this year That he That he Not

I would say It was more emphasized Is that Oh yeah This guy knows a lot About football And knows

Like the sound The sound football Play I feel like The knock on Andy Reid Offences over the years It can be

gimmicky Can be Mickey Mousey At the times and like, okay, I mean, we see all the fun plays and the Reds on the stuff, but I mean, just in general, what they do. But I think it's just, yes, he's been innovative and using motion. He was early on he was pretty aggressive as a fourth down coach. I think this year was an emphasis like, oh, yeah, you're an old Iman.

Like, you have a background and getting into heavy personnel and doing this stuff. So I think maybe the adaptability to go back to the basics. I don't know if that all makes sense, as opposed to an adaptability of looking to the future and going like, what's North Dakota State running? You know, what's, you know, incarnate word running in their past game. You know, he's not looking at, like, random college scheme. He's actually going back to stuff he's probably around since day one as a coach in the 90s, you know. So I think that's maybe what it is.

It's an emphasis or that he has a wealth of knowledge, no matter what type of knowledge it is with football. And I would agree with you in that, like, my opinion hasn't changed. And if I've learned something, it was probably like an echo of something I thought I already knew. But similar to the Kelsey conversation, it's not about this game and winning this game. But if Andy Reid wins this game, think about Andy Reid's status all time as it relates to NFL head coaches. Do you know where Andy Reid is on the list of head coaching wins in NFL history? I actually don't. Probably like sixth or something like that. Here are the guys with more wins as head coaches in the history of the NFL than Andy Reed, okay?

Belichick and Sean Shula. Yeah. Bill Belichick. George Hallis. Okay. And Tom Landry. So he's fifth? That's it.

Wow. That is the entire... I didn't know he was that close to Landry. That is the entire list. He has three fewer wins than Tom Landry does. Wow. Okay? I got to update my encyclopedia lookups.

So if he wins another Super Bowl, here are the guys who have won multiple Super Bowls as head coaches. Bill Belichick, Chuck Knoll, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Vince Lombardi, Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson, George Seifert, Mike Shanahan, Tom Coughlin, Bill Parcells, Tom Landry, Don Shua. So who's who?

You get. The knock on Andrew Reed always was what happened come playoff time. And it was the ability to finish off these seasons. If he gets another one and you have that volume of wins and that consistency of success, he's, again, just one of the greatest coaches of all time. He's not just like an offensive scheming genius and he's not like this kind of quirky guy. Yes. he helped kind of define an era of offensive football,

especially over the last five years, but the success is also there, the championship success is also there. It changes the way we're going to think about him in a justified way. I mean, the last, his old kind of reputation in the Super Bowl was in the T.O. one against the Patriots, when he was with the Eagles, was how terrible his clock manager was in the fourth quarter

because they were huddling, they were down two scores or whatever it was, and they were huddling with like seven minutes to go. And people ragged on him, and that was the joke. It was Andy Reed and clock management. You know, he's too into his game plan to care about the clock management. Man, he needs to hire somebody. But that was his reputation for years. And then now it's like, no one really, I mean, yes, a couple of us will joke about and reference it.

But it's like his reputation now is like, no, he wins games and he wins in the playoffs. He's five straight AFC championship games. It's funny how that kind of winning helps. Winning helps cure a lot, not only just relationships, but also cures reputations as well. And he deserves it. He absolutely doesn't. It's really awesome to kind of see now kind of like the results are coming with all the cool stuff that he does as process-wise. I mean, really the only guy who's been this sort of fixture is the word I keep coming back to in this era, in this sort of game with the multiple wins, is really Belichick.

Yeah. And so that's the rarefied error you start to get into when you get another one. Yes, yes. The other guy that's considered an all-time coach. So it's sometimes you forget because she's like, oh, he's. he's Andy Reed, you know, it's just, and we see him a certain way. And even like today when he was like making jokes about not drinking coffee because he was like an energetic chubby guy. It's like, oh yeah, Andy Reid, like cheeseburgers and barbecue and all this stuff. It's like,

oh, no, Andy, he's just one of the greatest coaches of all time and has a chance to 100% solidify that this weekend. That's awesome. You want that. You want these guys to succeed, especially. So the ones that have are not only just the personality like you're talking about, but it's like, I don't know, there's a lot to like with Andy Reid, not just with his personality, but his coaching kind of way like his philosophy at looking at football you want to see that to get rewarded as opposed like you're saying just a quirky blip that happens all the time of the NFL not for long is always the term of NFL but it's like any rates just still churning it out and it's awesome it's really cool to see him kind of reaping the rewards of all this all right those are our 10 guys that

are really like 15 guys yeah okay because we can't we could never just keep it short well tomorrow we have the long show yeah we'll like to say we will be back tomorrow with our super preview. Very excited. I thought we did a fantastic job of not stepping on that today and not getting too far into it. Yeah. So we are going to hit the game from every conceivable angle tomorrow. Nate showed me his notes last night when we were at the bar. It was horrifying. So if you guys want to learn about this game and hear about this game from every fatimable way. One side of the ball is at 1800 words right now. So I'm going to try to narrow it down for everybody. Sorry. Yeah. Trim, trim to tighten.

Just tighten a little bit. Tighten a little bit. Yeah, I will do that for the note. It's just for everybody. We will be back tomorrow with our Super Bowl preview. In the meantime, if you have not listened to the football GM with Mike Sandu and Randy Mueller hitting on both the Super Bowl, but also some of the coaching news from this week, which we have been able to get to.

I really am excited to kind of revisit that when we're out of the rigors of the schedule. Like, it's your Ereverro going to Carolina. Brian Flores going to Minnesota. Steve Wilkes going to San Francisco. Call and Moore going to the Chargers. There's a lot of interesting stuff. and I'm sure we will be able to hit in earnest when the Super Bowl gets done. Also, please listen to Prospects to Prosos with Dean Brugler and Andy Staples.

That should be available in your feed. If you have not subscribed to our YouTube channel, now is the time to do it. We are at the Super Bowl. We're doing some video stuff, some things that are a little bit different, that will be available for you there when you get a chance to look. For now, that is all we got. Excited to be back with our preview tomorrow. We'll talk to you guys soon.

This was the Athletic Football Show. Thank you.