The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The 2023 Class of the Hall of Very Good

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Welcome to the 2023 edition of The Athletic Football Show's Hall of Very Good. On this episode, Robert Mays and Nate Tice remember eight former NFL'ers who were very good, but, for one reason or another, not quite good enough to warrant Hall of Fame discussion. Let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we?Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceThe 2023 Hall of Very Good Class...Brian WestbrookPriest HolmesLorenzo NealMarques ColstonTed WashingtonJohn HendersonPeter BoulwareCarson PalmerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Join me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. Nate, how you doing, buddy? Doing very well. Well rested.

Good weekend. I started playing a little bit. This is how I know I'm in the off season. Played a little bit of video games this weekend. Wow. Look at you. Wow. It's right.

I played because I, this is what happens when you're in your 30s and you don't play the new game that just came out. So a new Zelda game came out. And I play. I started playing the last Zelda game that's on the Switch called Breath of the Wild because I'm six years late. That's what happens when you play this. But it's great because it's a single player game. I've been lost in High Rule right now.

And I'm just, that's why I'm in such a good mood. Just really enjoying my late night Zelda sessions I'm having as my son falls asleep. I'm so incredibly happy for you. That's a very deep May conversation that we're having, even though the show is running in June. You know, we talked about this. We're going to do some shows while I'm on my honeymoon. This is one of them, very excited to. run back a favorite idea of ours here at the athletic football show.

This is the Hall of Very Good, the class of 2023. For you guys who do not know, the Hall of Very Good is a place where we celebrate players that don't quite clear the bar to get into the actual Hall of Fame, but we still feel like should be acknowledged, remembered, just remembering some guys in a very fun way. So we're doing that again. You know, this is, there's no hard and fast rules here. The way that I've always done it is, if the player has not been a Hall of Fame semi-finalist,

they are eligible for the Hall of Very Good. I remember you with a couple of guys thought that if they were on the All-Decade team, they were not eligible. Joey Porter was one of those guys for you. You're just like, ah, you know what? If you're on the All-Decade team, like you can't be in the Hall of Very Good. You should probably be a nominee for Canton Court, which we also are going to do this offseason, which is where we argue for a couple of guys.

that we feel like should be in the Hall of Fame. Before we even get started today, I'm going to acknowledge a couple of mine may be on the line. A couple of mine may be a little bit too close to too good, but we can acknowledge that as we move through. I think we have four each this year. I'm curious if we have any of the same ones. We've never done that before.

But that's what we got. We got eight guys, and we're going to hash out why they belong in the Hall of Very Good. Why don't you kick us off? Yeah. Should we rattle off who we named last year? Let's do it. Okay.

Last year I had Ricky Waters. uh, Sean Rogers, Chris McAllister and Joe Horn. Uh, Joe Horn. That was a fun one to talk about with Joe Horr. That was one, he kind of gets lost in those kind of early mid 2000s, you know, J.C. Horst is now coming around, but those early 2000s receiver runs, especially with the celebrations, he was the other one. Yeah.

And he had a good career, a fun career. But yeah, Joe Horn was a fun one to talk about last year. Last year I had Antoine Winfield, which was probably the first guy I should have thought of when we did this exercise. I love Antoine Winfield. It's a senior. It is funny how many of these guys now have kids in the NFL. The first year we did, I had Patrick Stratan, a senior, or the first.

I had Navarro Bowman last year. Yes, that was a good one. It was fantastic for a few seasons. Obviously, injuries really derailed his career. Dante Culpeper, same sort of idea, just unbelievably entertaining. Don't have to sell you on that one. You're after my heart right now. One of my favorite players of all time, even when I was young and I was still, he came into the league, I think, pretty much when I was finishing up high school football.

I want to say it might have been his rookie year or maybe his last year at Louisville as I go back and think about it. Yeah. So his last, his rookie season was like right after I finished playing was Elvis Dumberville. And I just loved Elvis Dumberville because I was also a 511 pass rusher. So all the stuff that Elvis Dumerl could do is like, I appreciate you so much. Like this undersized guy who was consistently one of the best pass rushers in the NFL year in and year out, even though he was 5 foot 11. And this is a guy who only went to five Pro Bowls. He's never been a Hall of Fame semi-finalist.

So he just squeaked in for me, just on the line of too good, I think. So those are the types of guys that we're talking about here. What do you got for me? Okay. I'm going to start, oh, I got some of my kind of like unique figures, which I think is very fun for this exercise. That is important. It's a huge part of the consideration process.

It has to be distinct. I'm going to start with one of my favorite running backs of all time. Brian Westbrook. And actually... That's amazing. I was so close to putting him on that. I thought you were going to say you had him. When I was going back through, what I've done is just a kind of cold list a little bit

is I'll go back through like total approximate value from like 2000 to 2012. I like that. And I'll skip the first hundred guys. And then I'll go into like the second and third tier. And I saw Brian Westbrook's name and I was like, ooh, I'm going to file that one away. Because that's potentially a really good one. I actually thought he made more probable. So by memory, that's what I remember.

He only made two, only made two, which makes sense if you looked kind of at his stats. One first team all pro, which was a remarkable season, 2000. I think it was in 2007. I'm trying to remember off the top of my brain now. I was 2004. It went to the Super Bowl. I know. Now I'm like mixing up the two years.

I should have this. I do have notes, but not the exact years. But you didn't have a great year where he had a 90 catch season, 2,000 yards from scrimmage. He made first team all pro pro that year. Of 2007, actually. It was, right? His only other Pro Bowl was 2004.

That's what I'm remembering. which was also a good year. A complete three-down running back that is kind of one of my favorite types of players in football. Moldy Moore, I bring up all the time is another types of one of these players. But if anyone that's never watched Brian Westbrook, some of you Gen Zers, just think of Austin Eckler, but maybe even a little better. But he is just so good. Just such a good pass catcher, good runner with balance, and he was a great returner. one of the few players ever in NFL history to have a season with two rushing touchdowns,

two receiving touchdowns, and two return touchdowns all in the same season. What I love about what you're saying right now is that when I think of Brian Westbrook, he's one of the first guys, like if someone were to ask me, this has been a meltback question before, who was built in the wrong era? Who came along 10 years before he should have come along to settle into the best possible version of that player? And Brian Westbrook is like a perfect example. Brian Westbrook played now.

He would be one of the best running backs in the league every single year. Period. Him and Peter Work is your receiver. But those are two guys that like, God, you were born 10 years later. You'd be all time. Put Peter Work in the slot, let him go to work. Oh, just go. Watch Peter Work how it's from Florida State or some of the most fun ever that you have to watch.

He's just a little undersized. And when you were a little undersized the receiver in 2000, you know, that was a huge deal. And not on a creative offense or a forward-thinking offense at the time. It was really like you could go to three teams that would unlock you at the time. But anyways, back to Brian Westbrook. But if you just think of just a monster on choice routes, on angle routes, this is, he was so good that Andy Reed saw CEH playing college. I was like, that's like 60% of Brian Westbrook.

I'm going to draft him in the first route because that's how much fun Brian Westbrook. Yeah. Brian Westbrook was. But just a fantastic three-down running back, great pass catcher, one of the best past catching running backs of all time, but also had great vision. And third round pick, like that just made a nice career for himself. I know Eagles fans love him. He was kind of a classic, too, when I was a kid because especially being in the NFC and

competing against the Eagles and everything. Brian Westbrook was one of those classic. He's so underrated that he kind of became rated properly. It was everybody's favorite underrated guy. And then he became kind of properly right. But even still, man. Still, no one brings him up anymore. That team went to the Super Bowl in 2004, okay?

They were eighth in the NFL in scoring. He was the second most important skill position player they had after T.O. He was their second best receiver on those teams. And those offenses were pretty darn good. And my other thing about Brian Westbrook is kind of this aura of the Andy Reed screen game and why Andy Reed screen games, the design of it is so good. The memories of that start with Brian Westbrook. It starts with Brian Westbrook and then eventually creeps into some of those Chiefs

running backs early on because they had to live through that because they had to live through that because they had a scene where the wide receiver didn't catch touchdown pass and they were still really good. But Brian Westbrook is like the first kind of moments of just appreciating Andy Reed in that way. Watch his highlights. It's hilarious. It's just there's so much DNA that you watch now where Jerich McKinnon is catching some of these balls now. You know, and then now it's the same place just now out of the shotgun or a little more spready.

Same exact plays, though. It's really, really fun player. And I wanted to start off with him because I actually thought it was actually thought it's accolades would be more. And then looking at it, I'm like, no, this is perfect for this show because he had for about a five, six year period, everyone that watched football at that time, the early 2000s remembers Brian Westbrook as just this unique type of player, past catcher and just really, really good at it, as well as well as being a dynamic returner.

And apparently a great teammate as well. I know all of his teammates liked him as well. So I think he's a very, it was one of the easiest nominations I've had for the show. I can't believe it took me three years to get to Brian Westbrook. He's a perfect one. Okay. So I also have a running back. And I'm afraid he's too good.

But I want to throw him out anyway because he's been retired for 15, 16 years. I don't think he's going to sniff the Hall of Fame. And it's for a very specific reason. Is Priest Holmes too good for the Hall of Very Good? Okay. So I had him and then I took him off because I was like, I was going to ask you the same thing. I'm fine with him on this because the stint was so short where he was at the peak. He has three old probes, right?

Okay. But he only has three Pro Bowls. He only had those three years of peak peak production. And we've seen guys do this, right? Like, Torell Davis is in the Hall of Fame. But Torel Davis won an MVP award. Torel Davis won a Super Bowl. Two offensive player of the year awards.

Torell Davis's peak was even higher than Priest's Holmes's peak. So I think that Brian, Torel Davis has threaded that needle so perfectly to get in. I don't think Priest's Holmes ever will. So I think that's kind of why he's worth acknowledging here. He's like the all-time fantasy football champ. That's more like what Priest Holmes is remember for is those amazing seasons with the Chiefs O line. I mean, he's such a good player. I'm glad he brought him up.

So guys that if you guys are a little bit younger and you do not remember Priest Holmes, when Nate says he was the fantasy football champion, because if you had Priest Holmes in your team, you automatically won. In 2002, Priest Holmes had 1,600 rushing yards and 21 rushing touchdowns. He also added three receiving touchdowns and 672 receiving yards on 72 catches to those rushing numbers. Okay. What does he average like nine yards of catch? Yeah.

For his career, he averaged 8.7. But those, when he got to Kansas City, we're talking, receptions here. Yeah. 9.9.6, 9.3, 9.8, 9.4. That's ridiculous. As a receiver. I was rewatching highlights today. could really catch the ball.

Yeah. He could be a vertical receiver. There are plays in Baltimore where he was running wheel routes. He was really explosive. And which is funny because his 40 time and his testing numbers are not good. Like this guy was undrafted. Same with Brian Westbrook. He ran a 458 or like a 459.

And when you watch it, you kind of see it doesn't have that fifth gear, but it's like one to four though. Do you do, like just get there. Sorry. But yeah, that was that was a somewhat. So, that was a three 40 at the combine. Really? Yes. 4-7-340 at the comeback.

If I just guessed and just watch him, I'd say 4-48. Ultimate guy just play speed, okay? Yeah. And so then you look at further down the line in Kansas City, he had that year where he had 27 rushing touchdowns in 2003. And during this stretch, the Chief's offense was essentially the best offense in football. And this was when Peyton Manning was near the peak of his powers. That's how good these Chiefs offenses were with him, Tony Gonzalez,

Al Saunders, Trent Green, and that offensive line full of Hall of Fame players. And so you had that, he had 48 rushing touchdowns over a two-year stretch. He had about 1,500 or 4,500 rushing yards over a three-year stretch. And every single one of those years, 2001, 2002, 2003, he had at least 2,100 yards from scrimmage all three of those seasons. Okay. Which is insane. And part of me, and one of the reasons I was like, God, should he be on here? Is that that Chief's offensive line was so good.

So I started to look back at his numbers when he was in Baltimore. because he spent the first four years of his career in Baltimore. And he was a very old rookie, so it was 24 through 27. And if you look at his stats in Baltimore, it actually makes the chiefs and their GM at the time, Carl Peterson, going to get him even more impressive because the numbers were there. If you look at some of the underlying stats he had in Baltimore, in 1999, he was second in DYAR among running backs with less than 100 carries. He was seventh in rushing DVOA among all running.

back in 2000. He was more efficient than Jamal Lewis, the year that they, Ravens took Jamal Lewis in the top five. So there were some underlying metrics that showed he was a really good player. The chief signed him to a deal as a 28-year-old formerly undrafted rookie who had never rushed for more than like a thousand yards in a season. And the first year, they paid him $448,000 in base salary. He rushed for 1,500 yards at 2,169 yards from scrimmage that year.

So it's just a perfect kind of combination of this guy's underutilized. He has a very real skill set. If we drop him in with this offensive wine and this group, what can he do? And the result is one of the best three-year stretches in the history of the NFL for any running back. It's like him and Michael Turner. Like they kind of had that same where they're backups and they get signed that they explore. But Michael Turner signed to a huge deal. Huge deal.

Because he was showing. Michael Turner, we all knew. It was like, oh, man, as soon as he gets out from LT Shadow, he's going to be incredible. But that wasn't the case with Priest Holmes. He kind of came out of nowhere and then had this unbelievable run. So the only reason that I think Priest's Holmes might not deserve inclusion here is that he could be too good. But Priest's Holmes retired in 2007 and I don't think he's ever going to make the Hall of Fame. No.

It's anyone at what, like you said, it was just a quick blip. It was a three-year stretch where it was just, oh my God, he went gangbusters and you never heard from again. That makes so much more sense now when you said he was an older rookie now because the drop-off makes more sense. He didn't have that kind of, you know, going into the twilight part of his career. It was like, peak, done. But he got hurt too. He had like serious injuries as well. They ran up.

And then they had Larry Johnson, I think, as well after that. Yeah. But those chiefs teams, because I pull up the stat at the end of the year this year, and I was talking about the Eagles offensive line and their run, their run game was so incredible. It was the fifth highest rush success rate in the past 20 years. So since 2002. And so I just pulled that stat up. So it's not including 2001.

But the top two. two rush success teams were 2003 chiefs and 2004 chiefs where they, they were running, their rushing success rate was at 50% in 2004. That means half the time they ran the ball. 40% is good. They're 50%. That's what like Mahomes, Mahomes I think was at 52% throwing the ball. So they were just as successful running the ball in 2003, 2004 as like Mahomes or Josh

Allen or any top offense quarterback was this year. It's just ridiculous what they're doing on the ground. Sometimes like, oh man, this guy got 300 carries a year. he had plotters, he just kind of accumulating those stats. They led their leg in rushing DVOA every single year, 2001 through 2004, every single year. Those old lines, man, were monsters. All the lines are great, but he was so good at making guys miss. He had incredible feet and way more explosion than you thought.

I mean, there's so many moments where he's got one guy that he has to make miss and he does in the open field. It was just, again, kind of a perfect synchronicity of running back skill set, running back availability, and one of the best offensive lines we've ever seen, and it led to one of the best running. games we've ever seen. Love it when a plan comes together. It's so nice. It's football can be very pretty when you get a lot of good players together at the right time.

Even though he might be too good, I'm nominating priest homes. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that one because I, it was another name I looked at as well. I'm breaking my own rule because I am nominating someone on the all decade team, but the position makes it a little more palatable. So I'm going with Lorenzo Neal fullback for like. This is so perfect. This is so on brand.

I love it so much. I don't have them, but this is a perfect inclusion. 500 million teams he played for, but just the epitome of the late 90s, early 2000s fullbacks. Really, actually passed early 2000s or almost in 2010. He played until 2008. But really, he blocked for what we're talking about L.T. And Michael Turner with the Chargers. That's how I remember him.

But he also the other, sorry, Lanzo O'Neill Fraylund does know is just the fullback's fullback. Like he wore number 41. He'd even wear a neck roll, which I, in my brain, my memory. He absolutely did. I thought all the pictures I pulled up for my, I go swore. He 100% wore a neckro. I thought so too. And then I pulled up a number or a picture of him.

He didn't have one with the charges. I'm like, I thought you had a neck roll my whole life. He does, right? Yes. He pulled up pictures right now. 100%. The first picture I pulled up, he does. And I, it's burned into my brain.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I remember him having with the box. I think because Lorenzo, Neil, wore a neckro. That's what, it blew my mind this morning when I was pulling this up and I was like, wait, I thought I pulled up a picture of him. I'm like, because I wanted to make sure he wore 41. That's why I remembered him. And then I'm like, you didn't wear a neck roll? It must have been practiced or something. But anyways, but I got a picture of him in the neck roll in the pro bowl uniform, which is just really funny. It's the idea of wearing a pro roll roll. But just a classic fullback. There was no really, you know, catching the ball was definitely like the third highest priority on his list. Just a dominant blocker, a hammerhead. You see him wear a number 41. You go, yeah, it makes sense.

number 41. Just one of my favorite clips possible is he played one year with the 1998 bucks. And he's lead blocking for Mike Allstott. It's Lorenzo, Neil, a 260 pound fullback blocking for Mike Allstott in the high formation. It's like football, football, 500 pounds of backfield. It's amazing. It reminded me of in 2010 with Wisconsin, we had, you know, pretty damn good offense. And we had a jumbo package where we had Ryan Groi, who bounced around the league.

he was our fullback. We had Bill Nagy, who's our sixth offense alignment at tight end. We had JJ Watt at the other tight end. And at running back, we had John Clay, who ate 270 pounds at the time. So we just had a lot of beef. But that's what that reminds me of. Wisconsin bullshit. Oh, yeah.

Watch against the NLV. You feel bad for the rebels. But Lorenzo O'Neill, two first team all pros, one second team all pro, four pro bowls. He was on the 2000s all decade team. But because he's a fullback, I kind of, I make an exception for him. But Mike Allsotsots in this group. He was, I nominated him the first year.

Let's get the other guy. Let's get Lorenzo Neal. Just the most pure uncut football you ever see is that $19.98 team with those two in the backfield with Warg done as well. But Dominant Walker. I almost included work done on mine. I picked praise Tombs over Work done. Work done was on my like short list here.

I like that. But I love those bucks teams. They're great. I love those bucks teams. I've said this before. At the time I did it before. Now I love them. I, even in my Bears fandom growing up when those bucks teams and like the

late 90s, early 2000s, I had a brief, like, three to four year dalliance with them. And this is before they won. Like, I, it was after they changed the uniforms. Mike Allstow was from Joliet. And so they had like a Chicago area guy who was a star for them. The defenses were incredible. They had to rebrand. And I just, for whatever reason, I fell in love with those bucks teams.

And I rooted for them, like, very hard for like three to four years. It's also like Dick Geron, Bear Zero. It's like, I don't have any interest in this. I'm going to be bringing up at Dick Geron, Bear's. era team in a minute. With the next guy. It was post the Cade McNound pick. I'm like, this is awful.

And then Lovie got there in 2004 and they started playing a brand of football. I was like, all right, I can absolutely get behind this. That was right when they drafted Peanut Tillman and Tommy Harris. And it kind of really revamped what that team was. And I really loved those Bears teams and kind of got course corrected and got back on track. But there was a stretch where I just loved those Bucks teams. And it worked out. It was definitely part of them.

And then obviously Lorenzo Neal for a moment as well. Yeah, the makes sense to that you're like, you watch the, those, when Lovie came in, the bears and those types of players, you're like, hey, this seems familiar. Yeah. Oh, this cover two, Tampa too. Like even if you didn't recognize it, you did recognize it at the time. Yeah. Oh, man. At the time, I hated those box teams because they were part of the M.C. Central.

And then once the north and the south got made in 2002, really liked the bucks a lot more after that. Like, that was okay to appreciate them then, especially once they got Brad Johnson there. And then I was like, oh, yeah, Brad's there. We're good. We're good. But yeah, those old NFC Central battles. Those defenses were incredible, but I'm bringing up the fullback, who really, what I remember most is when he was with the Chargers. Oh, of course.

Blocking for L.T. and Michael Turner and just those loaded Chargers teams because that, like I say it again, this is just the way to frame Lorenzo Niel's just, he's the fullback, just the classic hammerhead. And yeah, I like, I like, I like, I, I like, it feels perfect. It feels proper to nominate them in here. So much. All right. Here's a guy. My next one is that is someone I've talked a lot about in the last year.

So I've thought about in the last year or so because he was kind of a prominent figure when I was doing that story about slot receivers. And my next one is Marcus Colston. Nice. Do you know that Marcus Colston never made the Pro Bowl? I thought he made one. He didn't make any. No probals. Marcus Colston never went to the Pro Bowl.

Here is why that's amazing. From 2006 to 2015, which is Marcus Colston's 10 years. year career. He was ninth among all receivers in receiving yards. Here are the guys ahead of him on that list. Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall, Roddy White, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, and Quam Bolden. Good list. I think at least eight of those, I think seven of those eight guys, in my opinion, are probably Hall of Famers. Maybe six. Calvin Johnson already is. I think Andre Johnson deserves to be in. Andre Johnson, on a per game level, go look at the quarterbacks that Andre Johnson played with for most of his career.

Yeah. He was an unbelievable player. His total. His career totals are probably going to keep him out, especially as there's the glut at receiver. But game in, game out and what he did on a per game basis with that quarterback play, Andre Johnson was unbelievable. That's who Calh Shanahan uses for X receiver teach tape is Andre Johnson. That's who he uses because he thinks that's the epitome of an ex receiver. And I agree. He was unbelievable.

He's amazing. He's amazing. Top three pick and was every bit of that top three pick at the position. And he had kind of a trademark with a little no, the little no, he, no, Andre Johnson was a damn good player. And I'm,

I'm kind of sad already because he is already starting to get forgotten a little bit. Wait till we do, wait to be you can't, court. Okay, I'm ready. I'm with you. I'm so ready.

I'll bang the drums the whole time as you're talking about it. I'm busting maker commando gif, I'm busting it out from my Andrea Johnson argument. I'm so ready. Good. Okay. Larry, if Larry Fitzgerald,

absolutely is. I think Brandon Marshall is probably, there's a conversation. to be had. Roddy White, probably not. Reggie Wayne, I think we're going through it right now. I think Steve Smith and Anquan Bolden are both Hall of Famers. Rule of Cool applies.

Like, both of those guys, like, they're aesthetic and who they were and just remembering them. I think they both get in. So Marcus Colston is the next guy on that list. He never made the Pro Bowl, which is just incredible. And there's a lot of reasons that I think Marcus Colston belongs on this list. The first of which is the production, right? I mean, he was so good year and year out.

the second of which is that he kind of revolutionized or helped revolutionized, like, what we understand from that position. Marcus Colston came in as a rookie, a seventh round rookie. And this is another, he has a memorable moment too, because every single fantasy league that you played in in 2006, Marcus Colston was eligible as a tight end. Yes. And he was a heck. So the two guys that won you your fantasy league in 2006, which is my freshman year of college, so fantasy football was very important. Was Marcus Colston being able to play tight end?

and LT. Because that was the year where Ladanian Thomas had scored like 30 touchdowns. Yeah, broke the league. So Marcus Colston comes in. He was drafted as a tight end wide receiver because he was 220 pounds and 6 foot 5. 7th rounder.

7th rounder from Hofstra, whose football program no longer exists. That's right. He was a 6 foot 5, 3, 230 pounds slot receiver. He came in and played 900 snaps as a rookie and played half of them in the slot after coming from Hofstra. You know how hard that is? It's incredibly hard.

To be able to sense coverage and be able to take advantage of zone. And teams are playing a lot of zone against the Saints a little bit later. This is a little bit later on when the Saints started becoming super, super pass-app. Because if you look at those early Saints teams, like right when Peyton got there, they ran the ball a bunch. Yep. Because they were just built on that. Yep. And then they started to throw it a lot more in like 0,8,09.

And he was this seam stretcher against all of the soft cover two that they were playing against. So having this guy with all this length in the. slot was kind of a huge piece of what created those Saints passing games, and it wouldn't really have been possible without him. So now you have Michael Thomas playing that big slot role as like the next guy in line for them. So he just created this archetype of player within one of the most memorable offensive systems of the last like 15 or 20 years.

And he never made the Pro Bowl. I never knew that. I swore he made one. That's crazy to me. God. And you know what's funny? You know who Colson's replacement was in that Saints offense was Jimmy Graham. So put that in your brain.

Like people that want to picture what they were asked to do. He was getting asked to do the same things Jimmy Graham ended up being asked to do, even though they play technically different positions. So that just speaks to tight their play styles, I guess. He played 50 to 60% of his snaps in the slot essentially every single year. In 2012, he was third in the NFL in slot snaps. and he played like between 800, 900 snaps every single season. He's kind of like a pioneer in a weird way.

Yeah. Yeah. And Larry Fitzgerald even came to that later. Later Fitzgerald, it was when Bruce Ariens got there. Yeah. And that was probably what? Bruce Ariens got there in 2013. 13.

So that's almost a decade into Larry Fitzgerald's career. Marcus Colson, it was from day one. He was doing that. And you go back in Marquez Colson. Marcus Colson, a shout out. Like that's, yeah, that's a good. that's a good one. You look at Marcus Colson highlights, he's just every bit of that length. And it's just the way that they can attack the field because of he was so good at like option

routes against tight ends because he's just enough of a quickness advantage over those players and the length advantage that he had over nickel corners and even safeties because of how big he was. They utilized it all the time. So just a really good player for a really long time. And I think he kind of epitomizes that type of guy that we're searching for in this exercise. He had six 1,000-yard seasons, which is just a remarkable. And two more 900-yard seasons. That's just a good career. Solid every single year.

Every year. Every year. 80 catches, give or take, 80 to 90. You know, his, what my kind of head cannon memories of him are him catching seam balls, like just what you're talking about. That's how I remember him. Catching seams with a big body, like you said, against his own. At the time, I didn't know football like that.

So, like, now kind of my new knowledge, I should say, watch, re-remembering him. that makes a lot of sense about what type of player he was. Great player. A lot of fun. And that's why I know Sean Payton just loves that type of guy just because of what you're saying, because it's so effective if you have a guy like that. Sean Payton loves his seam stretchers or seam bender guys and he likes his choice route runners. Those are like the two guys he like needs in his offense.

And Colson was one of them. That's the type of guy he likes. Who's your next one? Another kind of a unique player. And this is why I'm bringing up the 2001 Bears and Dick Dix-Jaron is Ted Washington. Washington. No, Mount Washington. Bring it up. It is really funny. We, we both have gigantic defensive tackles on our list and we both had a running back, which is great. That's great. Because we got to think about what we're talking about. That's the type of football getting played. It's so true. It's so true. Man, Mount Washington is one of the most, literally like one of the most impressive human beings, physical specimens I've ever seen in my life. He was listed 65, 375 pounds. But at the combine, he only weighed 306. So he put on some mass in the league.

I thought he came into the league way heavier. No, no, no, no. He put on that weight throughout his time in the league. But just the epitome of a 90s nose tackle. That type of player actually was decent rushing the passer. I mean, you know, like three, four sacks a year. But just the classic nose plugger in a three, four defense. Bounced around a lot of teams.

He was kind of a gun for hire through most of his career. Because he's just so useful. Even deep into his 30s, everyone was just like, oh, yeah, come on. We'll do a year too. Feel good about that. The Patriots brought him in for a year. He played awesome. And then they just like, okay, see ya.

Thanks for the rental. That he's why I've started to compare like nose tackles to like closers and baseball just for that type of reason. Like they just, hey, just bring him in for a year or two years. And then, okay, ship him out. We're good. No, you know, thanks for what you brought to us. Playing a 119 consecutive games, which is just. That's incredible for a man that big.

That's unbelievable. And the, and the, what he has to do and just the. beating he has to take. I'm sure he was doing more of the beating, but still, but he is, that 2001, when he was on the Bears, and I think he was like 33 years old. He was. He was. God, first team, he was, okay, all his accolades. He was a first team all pro, which was that year, one time, a second team all pro and overall four time pro bowl. So, you know, that's kind of a perfect cutoff. But he is just, that's what I remember is him, seeing him, because I was a ball boy at 12 years old, and the Bears played the Vikings in the Metrodome. I'm like, oh my God, that's, that's, that's

the biggest human being I've ever seen. And that, and that's with Brian McKinney in his rookie year. Oh, no, he came to the next year. I would come to the next year. But it was just, it's just incredible. I can't get over the size of him, even to this day. But just a classic nose tackle. And that Bears team, I remember they came out of nowhere. They should have been bad. They were bad the year before, bad the year after. They weren't good that year. That was the craziest football season I've ever been a part of or could ever remember. 13 to three. In back to back weeks, they had walk off interception returns for touchdowns in overtime. Yes. That's right. It was insane. I couldn't even remember the quarterback, Jim Miller, who I now remember. And Jim Miller that year, I just had to look this up. He threw for 2,300 yards essentially, one yard less than that. 13 touchdowns and 10 picks. Threw for 57% completion percentage, had a pass rating of 75, 74.9, and the Bears went 13 and 3 that year. If you want to talk about how much football has changed, it's remarkable looking at some of those old passing stats. But yeah,

Going Mount Washington. I'm glad. I'm excited to hear what nose tackle you had because there was a couple I was sifting through, but I had Ted Washington on my short list last year and I want to throw him into the discussion this year. That bear's defense was very good that year, but the offense was not very good. But that was the year where that was Erlock or second season. Second year?

Okay. I can remember if it was a rookie year or second year. Yeah. So he was working in 2000. And then his second season was 2001. And that was the year, it was just like, holy shit. Yeah. We're watching something here.

Yeah. He had three picks, six sacks. nine TFLs that year and eight passes defense as a middle linebacker. That was the year where it was like this is just a different sort of player than we've really seen at the position. Like him being able to cover all the ground that he could.

Yeah. He was a top 10 pick. I mean, he was insane. He was at college safety that was 6'4 and weighed 250 pounds. And can fly. And just, I mean, when you think about guys running down the post in cover 2 in Tampa 2, a guy at that size being able to do it at 6.5. for 260 as definitely as he could. It was insane.

And that was one of the smartest players on the field. Just an all-time freak. He was incredible. I mean, obviously, he walked into the Hall of Fame as he should have. And then a guy actually, his name came up when I was thinking about this

from that 2001 Bears team. Remember how good Roosevelt Colvin was? Roosevelt was? Roosevelt Colvin had like three or four years as that past rushing linebacker where he was so good. Yeah. He had 10 and a half sacks for that 2001 bear team. 59.

Yep, 59. Yep. Yeah, I remember. I remember. Don't even look at it. Yeah, that's great. See, that's, for me as like as a coach's kid, there's some guys I knew by name and then some I just knew by number.

And then years later, I learned their names. And that's one right there. R.W. McCorders was one of the corners on that team. That was in the pre-Penet Tillman era. So I have several nose tackles. I wanted to ask you before I dig into the nose tackle that I picked. A couple guys that are on the line that I was thinking about.

And I want to know, I want to get a ruling. too good or not. Casey Hampton. Too good? No, I think that's kind of proper for this. What about Jamal Williams from the Chargers? Too good? I don't think so.

What were his accolades? He only had like three or four Pro Bowls. Yeah. He had two first team all pros, three Pro Bowls. Oh, that's perfect for this discussion then. All right. So we got a lot of stacked up guys then. Because those two and Chris Jenkins are, I think, are very much considered.

That's who I thought you were going to say Chris Jenkins. So I thought you were going to say Chris Jenkins. So I did not. not. Okay. The guy that I threw on here is John Henderson. Yeah. Okay. Love it. For those of you guys who are unfamiliar with John Henderson, John Henderson was drafted by the Jaguars in 2002. Okay. He was a first round pick. He was a top 10 pick. Yeah. The reason that John Henderson was a top 10 pick as a defensive tackle is that John Henderson was six foot seven and weighed about 350 pounds. He was just unbelievable. movement skills for a huge man.

He ran a 487. Insane. Like truly insane. So as just a player, like his profile, he and he was a really good player in the NFL for a long time as a top 10 pick. But there are several other reasons he's on here. One, those mid-2000s Jags teams just cool. Yeah.

That was when they went to the all-black uniforms every once in a while. And I remember them in some of those private-time games, like David Garard was a fun quarterback. They had those defenses with Marcus Stroud and Mike Peterson was their off ball linebacker on those teams. He was really fun. And the other guy was Rishin Mathis. Rishin Mathis was excellent. And so those teams were just fun to watch.

And John Anderson was just this massive mountain of a man in the middle of those defenses, which were top 10 pretty much every single year for that stretch in the early to mid-2000s. but the thing that sticks with me, and if you guys have never seen this, I implore you to go look it up. They had a trainer slap him in the face before every single game.

And there's video of this. You can easily watch. He's a 6'7, 350-pound man, and the trainer is slapping him in the face as hard as he can in the locker room before the game starts to psych him up. It's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying.

And so he's just such a member figure from that time. And Marcus Stroud, who was the guy who played next to him at defensive tackle, was also an awesome player. So they had these two guys that played next to each other who were just these really stout defensive tackles in this era of football. But John Henderson just because of the size and the frame. In 2004, he had five and a half sacks of 350 pounds, six foot seven nose tackle. Like the guy could just play and he's also burned into my brain.

He played in college with Albert Hainsworth. So can you imagine those two together at Tennessee. And then the thing is like him and Marcus Strouds Strouds 6.6. 320. So you had 6.7 and 66 next to each other at defensive tackle. It was absurd. Because my dad was, my dad got to Jacksonville in 06. And so that was my exposure to him.

And then I'm there. I was in the locker room for a game in 06. I really wanted to say, God, who they draft. I can't remember who they played. But I had the game and then saw the slap, the John Henderson slug. lap because I was sitting in the training room because that's where I could hang out because I couldn't be in the exact locker room. And I remember being like, what the fuck did I just watch?

Like, I remember saying some, that's really scarring for a young child. Dude, I'm 17. So it wasn't like a baby. You know, I guess it's true. But it was.

That's when I was also a big moment. So I was a senior in high school and going like, I'm about to go to college and play college football. And I'm like, and I've been around football my whole life. And I'm like, oh my God, these are the guys you play against.

Like, that's a little different in Minnesota. You know, Kevin Williams is a little quiet. He was to himself. This is a way different, way different animal in the south. But no,

it's, that's a, those defensive tackles, those defenses were amazing. Those Jaguars teams are awesome. Like, I'm glad you brought up David Garard. I have some great memories of those teams

when they beat the Steelers at Pittsburgh. And then I, I believed so deeply that they were going to beat the Patriots that year in the playoffs in 2007. I was like, this is it. I hated those, I hated that Patriots team. I don't know why.

I just hated that Patriots team. And in my mind, I was like, the Jags are going to win. I, I've probably told the story before on the podcast. guest, but that Jags Steelers game was the night before I left for London to go study abroad. Okay.

It was my sophomore year of college. That makes sense, yeah. So I had to find a place to watch the Jags Patriots game. And the bar, the little sports bar, a little like local pub in Harrow out in London, they kept it open. It was like, the bartenders happened to love American football. So they closed the shades and kept it open, like way later than they should have. And we got to watch the game. And I was just convinced.

I was like, this Jags team is going to beat the Patriots. And Tom Brady went 21 of his first 22 in that game. I was going to say, did he complete like 20 in a row? I was at a bowling alley watching that with my friends. I didn't bowl. I just watched the whole game the whole time. And it just one after another, just picking up apart. Just one after another didn't blitz them at all.

They're going to run zone every play. And he was just 10, 12, 14, 10, 12. I was convinced. Oh, I know. Because after they beat the Steelers, I was like, they're going to do this. Like this jack, I just, I, whatever reason I really like that team. And John Henderson was a huge part of it. Another one and the second guy that I, the last guy I have also fits this.

I really drawn to guys, really gravitate toward guys in this exercise that when I would start like a Madden franchise in 2004 and did like a fantasy draft where you could just pick the right players that you wanted. These guys always ended up on my team. Like John Henderson was on every single one of my Madden franchise teams when I was building a team. Every single one. I like that.

I like that. That was my Jonathan Ogden. I always had Ogden on my teams because he was like the 99 left tackle. Every single time. I always had him. No, that's great. I'm glad he brought him up because that was, that's a perfect player for this exercise. It's just a couple Pro Bowls.

Ironic. You remember him. And now he has the slap. He has the slap heard around the world. You're going to remember it every year. Every time it pulls up. I'm like, yeah, there's a slap. I saw it in person, though.

And it's, it's pretty, uh, it will be. be burned into your brain too. You don't even need the video. All right. You got one more man. This is one I really wanted to name last year and I think I even said it. And this is Peter Bolwer for the Ravens. Defense a rookie of the year. One time second team all pro, four time pro bowler, kind of perfect cutoff. Only played nine seasons because he battled some injuries at the end of his career. But just the dominant pass rusher on some of the most dominant defenses I'll ever see in my lifetime, those early 2000s Ravens teams. You know, they were loaded. Chris McAllister, Rod Wood.

and Sam Adams, Goose, Ray Lewis, Jamie Sharper, Adelius Thomas. I mean, they just had, they're loaded. And Bolivar was the pass rusher. Like that was how I remembered him on those teams. They had the corner. They had what's in the aging safety and just the beef up front as well. And Ray Lewis, of course. And then that was the guy on third down that was getting the sacks.

And that's how I remember. He was just that classic at the time, the outside linebacker pass rusher. Like, uh, what we, they're all merged together now, but he was that epitome of that type and those three, four attacking three, four defenses. He was the designated pass rusher type. Um, really, really good player. Had a, like I said, had enough accolades, had a 15 sack season. Had just enough of that where Terrell Suggs ended up being his successor. I wish that he stayed healthy and those two played together because it would probably just, they played together very briefly. I want to say one healthy year together. Um, but I really wish I could have seen more of that. But a guy that I'll remember to this. day. I think the Ravens honored his number recently, deservedly so, which his career was a little bit longer, but a guy that will always be in my memory as one of the most feared pass rushers at that time, but just kind of got overshadowed by even more talented teammates. This exercise is very good for this type of player, the guy who was really good on an iconic team that isn't going to get Hall of Fame recognition like some of his teammates did.

When we did this last year, Lindsay brought up Camp Chancellor. Cam Chancellor is like, perfect. And I almost, when I was thinking about guys to put on this, I had like two or three more Seattle guys from that stretch. Like Brandon Mebain, you know, guys like that or like Chris Clemens. You know, these guys that were these role players, like secondary players on teams just loaded with Hall of Famers. I could do three more guys from the 2006 Bears defense if I wanted to. I know, right? I'm very close to putting Tommy Harris on one of these lists one year. Tommy Harris was a really good defensive tackle.

Again, he was a first round pick. Like, it's not, she didn't come out of nowhere. He was an awesome player. Like top three defensive tackle in the league. Like, for at least a two-year stretch. Yeah. No, absolutely. Well, I would just want to talk about Bullware stats.

Like, I just seem to look in them up right now. These were his sack totals every year. 11.5, 8 and a half, 10, 7, 15, 7, 8.5. And then you got hurt and then kind of tapered off right there. Have one more year where you only got two and a half sacks. But it was just, that's what he was. Just, you know, you're getting 10 sack of year. of this guy in a pro bowl caliber type of a year out of this guy and just bringing the heat.

And he would get TFLs as well. Just one. I wish he's a guy too. I wish I could watch him now because he did more than just those sack totals. Like pressure, his pressure rates would have been absurd. And that's how I remember him because he was just such a feisty type of defender. But I like what you're saying, though. These guys are maybe like the fifth beetle on some of these, on some of these loaded defenses.

These are a type of guys for this exercise or on offense as well. My suggestion here, and I think he's just. gotten into the eligibility period. I don't think he's ever going to sniff the Hall of Fame, but just somebody who was a good player for a long time and had some peaks that were really memorable for me. I'm known Carson Palmer. Nice.

That's good. Carson Palmer went to three Pro Bowls. You know, Carson Palmer had a very strange career. Very strange. He's one of these guys that when you talk to coaches or personnel people about the position and about kind of this ideal of what you look for. Young Carson Palmer is was what quarterbacks were supposed to be.

You know, he was the number one overall pick, but he was so much better of an athlete than people remember him being because he had the knee injury. I think that kind of changed the way that he played deeper into his career. But early on, he could really move. And those, you know, those Bengals teams in 2004, 2005, They had a lot of talent. If he doesn't hurt his knee that year in the playoffs,

I think a lot of Bengals fans will do the, you know, what might have happened. They've got some bad ones with that. Andy Dalton hurting his thumb against the Steelers, I think in 2015 as well. I think they could have really done some damage. But the reason that I had Carson Palmer on there is that late career Carson Palmer after he went to Arizona

was the leader of some of my surprisingly favorite offenses I've ever watched in my entire life. That 2015 season was actually really fun for some kind of random offenses. And the three that I remember are the Panthers, right, with the Cam AVP season, the Cardinals. And then the Steelers that year is when they really fully transitioned into this like, we're just airing the shit out of the ball. Like we are just slinging it around. Everything you remember about what we used to be, that is gone.

We're splitting out the running back and we're, you know, bells run slants. Yeah, yeah. And they push the ball down the field. Like that was the year where they just got really, really vertical with what their offense looked like. In 2014, too, that was like the shift in what it happened. Yep. But those three offenses that year.

And I legit thought that Carson Palmer during stretches that 2015 season, like played at an MVP level in that Bruce Ariens offense. And it was a reminder of what his just pure. talent throwing the football could look like in that sort of vertical offense. And so he's just one of those guys that, again, was a starting quarterback in the league for 10 years, 15 years, had some really, really great peaks. We'll never go to the Hall of Fame, made three Pro Bowls, but was a very good player for pretty long stretches of his career and is worth remembering in something like this.

One of the prettiest throwers of the football ever. 100%. Just mechanics, everything. USC quarterback. Like there's just so much about him that is just picturesque when you watch him. I mean, I think what is he, 6.5. Yep. Yeah, 6.5, 2.30.

Yeah, just like what you picture those quarterbacks. I'm glad he brought up that he was a decent athlete. I remember him in college. I want to say the Orange Bowl. I really do. It was the Orange Bowl. It gets Iowa. Yep.

Yes. And Iowa quarterback was bred. Bread, some banks, something like that. I think that might have been right. What I remember in that game is Matt Roth. Remember Matt Roth was the DJ. event from Iowa and he sacked Carson Palmer on like the first drive and did the Heisman post in the Orange in the Orange Bowl. I remember that vividly. I know that yeah,

because that's one like my football memories were really starting become crystallized. That's like I remember a lot more of that. I was really into who got all the votes too. Like who won the Jim Thorpe Award. You know, I was really into all that stuff. NCAA video games really had a did a number on me. But if you just look at Carson Palmer did have a weird ass career. If you just look at it all laid out. Um, because he was a 25 year. 25 year old first year player. I know because he sat out the year. He was older and then he obviously gets hurt early in his career with Cincinnati,

but then they come back and he has some decent years. Then there's the falling out with the Bengals organization. He gets traded to the Raiders. The Raiders trade is an absolute disaster. Essentially gets Hugh Jackson fire because he traded multiple first round picks to go get him. Then he's available on the scrap heap. The Cardinals go get him for absolutely nothing. And he kind of settles into this beautiful version of himself because he's

playing in this fuck it who cares offense and it's exactly what he should have been doing the offense that needs you to need you needs you needs you to be big tough with a big arm at quarterback and it was like oh this is great it was yeah again we're talking about like idealistic player with idealistic scenario but 2006 he made a proble at 27 years old the next pro bowl he made was 2015 yeah at 36 years old that just it's such a you know rich ganon's another one that kind of had that type of career but he didn't have as much early success as palmer did so I love that you brought a month. 8.7 yards per attempt in 2015

and that offense. 76.4 QBR, which is absurd. That team was really fun to watch. It was really fun. Larry Fitzgerald did back half of his career at that point, but that was John Brown was a field stretcher for them. David Johnson was early in his career.

Michael Floyd was there. It was just a really fun offense to watch. It was one of my favorite kind of retroactive studies that I did two summers ago. I was watching about five games to that offense because it was just like it's just they didn't dress up too much. They just snap the ball and launched it. And it was awesome.

At you run game, at you pass game. And sometimes just like it's great when it's just execution and better players is it can be really, really fun to watch. And that was like the epitome of that, especially with Palmer in that offense. Good, good nomination.

I have a, I had a different quarterback one, but I might save him from next year. We got plenty more guys. I got a lot of nose tackles that are. are eligible that I didn't think might be eligible. So I got a lot of guys I can dig back into next year. All right.

That's great. This is great. That's all we got. I love doing this every year. It's always a blast. It's just a great chance to remember some guys. It is a perfect thing to do in May and June. And appreciate you guys spending the time with us as we took a little trip down memory lane here.

Yeah. Guys remember some dudes. That's all this show needs to be, my friend. It is. All right. That is all we've got. Make sure to check out the other shows on the feed this week. including the football GM.

Appreciate you guys spending the time. We'll talk to you soon. This was the athletic football show.