The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The 2023 OL draft class with Dane Brugler + Brandon Thorn

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

Paris Johnson or Peter Skoronski? Who's the best interior offensive lineman in the draft? Who can go from day-three pick to starter? Dane Brugler and Brandon Thorn join Robert Mays on this episode of The Athletic Football Show to answer those questions, and a whole lot more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Dane on Twitter: @dpbruglerFollow Brandon on Twitter: @BrandonThornNFLSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube3:00 The top OL pick—or, Paris Johnson vs. Peter Skoronski19:04 The top right tackle30:57 Broderick Jones35:43 Best non-top-50 tackle41:12 Dawand Jones45:41 Who has the widest range of outcomes?48:42 Top interior linemen53:52 Centers56:58 Above consensus62:24 Below consensus66:53 Who are you taking a dart throw on? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. This is part one of our two-part offensive line podcast that we're doing about the 20-23 draft, which is just completely unhinged, but it's pretty on brand for the nonsense that we try to pull around here. Part two is currently in your feed.

I chatted with Mitchell Schwartz and Marshall Newhouse, who have 20 years combined playing in the NFL on the. the offensive line about why some of these guys that get drafted in the first two rounds don't pan out. And sometimes that's a little bit of a black box at the offensive line position. We assume guys drafted in round one, round two, they're going to be starters. Sometimes that doesn't happen. So why? What are the barriers to that happening? The flip side of that is the guys who are actually going to be first and second round picks in this year's draft and what those guys look like as prospects. And that is what we were going to dig into in part one here. And to help me

with that conversation, two guys who have watched way more of these guys than me, and I guarantee you way more of these guys that anybody listening has. First of all, our draft guru at the athletic, so happy to have him back, feeling a little bit better. Dan, how you doing, buddy? Good. It's been a good week. Now that the beast is out and people are being able to enjoy it, it is a good feeling to hear everybody having fun with it. So it's been a good week. I appreciate you being willing to do this along with all the other ridiculous nonsense on your plate. So thank you very much for spending the time. Also joining us today, one of my favorite people to talk about offensive line play with. Somebody who loves offensive line play, I think more than anyone I've ever met,

like the true deep love for it is just different. It's Brandon Thorne from the Trench Warfare substack. Brandon, thank you very much for doing this, man. Oh, guys, it's a pleasure to do this. You and you two are probably my favorite people to talk football with. So, yeah, I've been getting ready for this. I got my Google Doc sheet ready. I'm ready, man. My favorite part about this one specifically, like the offensive lineman every year and talking to you guys about it is this is a conversation we would just have anyway, over lunch or wherever. So the fact that we're recording it is just one more step in the process.

It doesn't really change anything about how we would handle this. So we're doing this the same way or a similar way that we did the receivers. Where we're not going to rank guys, especially because they're different positions, different considerations. I wanted to put together kind of a list of superlatives categories, little questions. questions for both of you. And again, because I'm a coward, I'm going to ask you guys these questions and let you steer this conversation a little bit based on the extensive amount of work that you have done. And I wanted to start with kind of a random one. And I was looking at the top kind of 10-ish, 12-ish of the draft. And I think you can make an argument for several

teams in that range that need an offensive line. The Bears absolutely need another tackle. The Titans need everything. But their offensive line is one of the starting points there. you can make an argument that the Eagles could draft a tackle with the 10th pick in the draft, if they want to draft an heir apparent to Leon Johnson with that pick, even if it might not help them right away. So I wanted to kick it off by asking, if you had a pick in that range, let's say you had the 11th overall pick in the draft, and you need a starting left tackle. And every offensive lineman in this draft is on the board. Who would you take?

For me, this would come down to Paris Johnson from Ohio State, the more prototypical left tackle. was a guard in 2021, moved to left tackle, his more natural left tackle this past year for the Buckeyes and played outstanding. But I'm going to go with Peter Skoroski from Northwestern, and he's in my guard rankings because I'm basically treating him like Zach Martin. You know, can play tackle in the NFL? Yeah, I believe he can. But do I think his game could be maximized at guard? Yeah, I do. So as long as my coaching staff is on board, I would.

would be fine going with Skoronsky to play left tackle. I was talking with Cowboys, a VP of player person at Will McClay at the Combine about some outliers and things like this. And he had an interesting analogy about, you know, he mentioned how a blind person, like theoretically has amplified hearing because obviously they rely on their other senses to kind of, you know, make that up. And it's kind of similar with physical outliers in football. And with Peter Skoroski, who does not have very long arms, 32 and a quarter inch, which it's, I mean, Brandon, we don't have a current starter at tackle in the NFL shorter than 32 and a quarter, right?

No, not that I, not that I'm aware of, no. Yeah, right. So just on that same page, I looked it up. Since 2000, there have been 17 offensive linemen in the NFL who have made a pro bowl with arm length less than 32 and a half. 11 of those 12 players are centers. 12 if you count Cody Whitehair. Other guys on the list,

Marshall Yonda, Ritchie Incognito, Evan Mathis, Chris Snee. John Stitchcombe is the only offensive tackle to hit that mark. If you expand it to 33, you only get Ray Sean Slater and Donald Penn. That's it. And that's exactly it. So back to that analogy,

like it really helps you become substantially better in other areas. So like a guy like Peter Skronski, we see that with him because he's never been super long, but he wins with his feet, with his processing, with his technique. You know, he's never been, he's never had to rely on that length. So it's helped him develop in those other areas and get the most out of them. And I, you know, I think it's one of the main takeaways with Skronski is, you know, you take all the top athletes in whatever sport you want, you know, Mike Trout,

Steph Curry, Tiger Woods, whatever. You know, physically, what are they have in common? it's repeatable technique. It's just very repeatable with what they do in their process. And I think for Skoronsky, that might be his superpower. That might be what separates him. He has the movement skills. The IQ is there.

That's definitely part of this. But the repeatable technique is, I think, what really kind of separates him and separates the good from the great. Before we dig deeper into Skoranski, Brandon, who is your answer to this question? Yeah. So I took this question as, you know, this guy has to play left tackle for me. And, you know, we're not going to be able to move him kind of thing. Like I kind of box myself in with it. And that's a fair way to take it.

That's how I wanted you to take it for this exact reason as we discussed, Gronsky. Okay. So, you know, with that said, I would go with Paris Johnson from Ohio State. And, you know, that's because I think, you know, he is more prototypical in terms of size. And that's really the biggest differentiator. To me, I have similar to Dane, I have Peter Skronsky projected as an interior offensive lineman who can play tackle. So, you know, if I wanted to take the best overall offensive lineman, I would take

Peter Skoronsky. But if I'm, you know, boxed in at left tackle, I'd probably go with Peter, or excuse me, Paris Johnson, because their grades aren't too different overall to me. Scronsky's a little bit higher. but yeah, I just, Paris is my number one tackle, you know, in the draft. And not by much. There's kind of a cluster there as well, but that'd probably be the guy that I would go with in this scenario.

So what are the limitations with the guy who has 32 and a quarter inch arms, Brandon? When you're thinking about why he can be an extremely successful college offensive tackle and why he might struggle a tackle a little bit in the NFL with that size and frame, what are the actual tangible reasons for that? Yeah, I mean, I think you could see. it, you know, pop up on Skronsky's film as well and other guys. I think the biggest thing is, you know, certain body types, and especially in the NFL, there's a lot of them. They're going to be able to establish first meaningful contact. And, you know, once they do that, they kind of gain quick control

of the rep and they force, you know, the tackle into recovery mode. And, you know, Skronski's very good of recovering. But, you know, doing that, you know, at an increased rate in the NFL compared to what he did in college, I just think is kind of a recipe to not get the most out of him, you know, whereas inside, you know, he's dealing with a little bit, you know, there is some big, long guys inside, but there's not as much space that you have to negotiate there as, you know, either. And there are also, you know, shorter kind of more, you know, condensed body types inside as well. And I just think his skill set translates very well. It's very similar, similar to, you know, Ali Marpeb, Brandon Scherf, Joe Betonio, Joe Tuny, Zach Martin, the list goes on. You know, Elijah Vera Tucker, all these guys,

you know, most of those guys could probably play tackle, and they have in spurts. Joe Tuni just did it. Betonio just did it. Zach Martin's done it. But, you know, would you rather have a middle of the pack left tackle or an all-pro guard, you know? And that's a interesting question, but I would rather have the blue chip guy regardless of the position. So that's, yeah, kind of went on a tangent a little bit there, but strictly in terms of that arm length thing, I think the first meaningful contact is a big thing. And another kind of differentiating factor here that plays into this answer is, you know, looking at Skronsky and Slater, Slater does have a little bit longer arms. But the main differentiator between those two to me is Slater is more powerful and stout than Skoronsky. Sklady's

Scoronsky is, I think, you know, at least average, maybe above average in play strength and power. But Slater is special in that regard. And I don't see Skoranski having that same anchoring strength and power that Sean Slater has. And therefore, I think that could be mitigated a little bit easier inside, actually. Slater's also a better athlete overall if you look at the testing. Like top to bottom, his testing numbers are just better than Skoransky. So if we're finding reasons why Slater could be an exceptional left tackle and Skoransky might not, that might be another point in Slater's favor.

Dan, you talk about that repeatable movement. What do you mean when you say that? His ability to kind of repeat those movements consistently. How does that manifest and how does that potentially overcome some of these length concerns? Well, I mean, I think the biggest thing, because offensive linemen at the NFL level, they're all big, they're all move well, they're all strong. The guys that really separate themselves are the guys that are very technically sound, very proficient with the way they attack.

It's timing. It's combination of the timing, placement, all of that. And it is mental as it is as much mental as it is physical. And so with a guy like with Skoranski, his ability, and Brandon kind of touched on this, his ability to recover from being put in different compromised positions is just really, really impressive. So it doesn't matter if someone's trying to cross. his face, someone's trying to work his edge. He does such a nice job of not panicking, being in position, so he can, he understands the biomechanics. This is something Joe Thomas

talks about a ton, is the biomechanics and understanding how to make, let your body work for you. Because Joe Thomas is another guy that didn't have super long arms, but he has such a keen understanding of his body and how he could counteract whatever rushers are going to throw at him. And so I think Skronski has some of that, where he understands, how to sink his weight or just the different depth points with his footwork, things like that. So his understanding of that at such a young age is something that makes him, in my opinion, the best offensive lineman in this draft. If you go listen to Part 2 that we did with Mitchell and Marshall Newhouse, a lot of it

and a lot of reason guys fail and succeed is they tap into that idea of do they know how to make their bodies work for them. and there's a certain confidence and calmness, I think, that comes with that. When you watch Skoranski, Brandon, he is just the heart rate never changes. Like, that guy is just in complete control all the time, even when you compare him to other elite offensive line prospects. And that's what jumped out to me at least. Yeah, yeah, that's well said.

That heart rate thing is a really good analogy that I think plays, you know, out when you watch his film. I mean, he definitely has the feet, you know, of a left tackle, you know, to me. it's just the body type, you know, is just such an outlier. That's really the only thing that would hold him back, you know, from sticking at left tackles. Funny you mentioned Joe Thomas, I think that's his favorite player, you know, the guy that he's studied the most as well.

And, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't think he's as good of an athlete or quite as big as Joe Thomas, but, you know, there are some similarities there for sure. And he's hands down the best offensive lineman in the class. in my opinion as well. It's just where he's going to play is up for debate, and I think a lot of that is going to depend on where he goes. You know, you mentioned the Bears and the Titans. I think those two spots are good places for him to play tackle

just because those offensive lines are in such dire need of the position. But there's other spots that he may go where, man, you put him at guard with, you know, a young tackle. And, you know, you could have who I compared him to, I really see the most likely outcome for him is like a Joe Tooney, which, you know, that's a great, if that's, you know, kind of disappointing for somebody, then that's a great kind of a floor, I guess, to have for somebody. And I think that's kind of what you're looking at with Scronston.

There are no size concerns about Paris Johnson. You look at Paris Johnson and maybe it's the 77, but the length and just his body type, just like, there was like Tyron Smith aesthetics to what he looks like on the field. He's not the same sort of prospect. But like that was the first place my mind wet because his arms are so long. So how would you compare him to some of the other elite guys that have come into the draft over the last maybe three or four years, Brandon? Like, where do you think he stacks up to some of the other high-end tackle prospects that we've been looking at recently?

Yeah, I would have him below most of them. Just going back to the last, so two years prior to this one is when I really started to do every offensive lineman in the draft. I looked at the class before that, which I think was like Andrew Thomas, Strederick Wills, those guys, but really Penae Sewell, Slater, Darisaw, you know, that was the class that I really kind of dug into everybody and then since then. So just going off of those last couple of years, he'd probably be, he'd be below, you know, Aquan, Neal, Sewell, Slater, right there kind of with Darisaw to me is a similar kind of grade, very different players. But, you know,

on our scale, it's more of like a middle of the first round grade, which, you know, when it comes to the NFL draft, that's going to be a high first round grade most likely, just because there's not a lot of tackles to choose from. You know, I think when you look at Paris Johnson, like you mentioned, ideal measurables, height, weight, length, you know, the movement skills to match as well. You know, competitive toughness with him, I think is very impressive as well. For a guy who's so smooth and silky in his movements. He's actually, you know, really physical and a good finisher. He's sticky as a run blocker. I think that's the best way to describe him. Once he's latched on a guy, he does a really good job of sustaining blocks and steering guys finishing. So he brings that element as well. His biggest

concern and the reason why I have him knocked down a couple pegs here is because, you know, play strength specifically in his anchor. And I think part of that is also strike timing, letting guys get inside of him, you know, a little too quickly. And, you know, Lucas Van Ness had a couple of reps on him when they played where he was able to just kind of blow him up in his, you know, in his anchor. And a couple other guys were able to get inside of him and lift him up. And, you know, so that's kind of the one knock on him, I think that you're looking at. But I think if he cleans up his hands a little bit, maybe gets a little bit stronger. He's very young. All these guys that we're going to talk about are pretty young, you know, 21 years old. He could certainly mature physically and get there.

I compared him to, he's the left tackle Brian O'Neill. That's, you know, when I look at Brian O'Neill and if I were to write a scouting report on him, which I actually did when he came out of Pittsburgh, very similar type of player. I like Paris a little bit more, but Brian O'Neill, to me, had a lot of the same strengths and the exact same kind of weaknesses. And I think that's the level of player you're probably going to get at left tackle with Paris Johnson, which is probably going to be an above average starter. That's probably, you know, I think.

his most likely outcome. With Paris Johnson, do you agree about that tiering, Dane? Do you feel like he's kind of a step down from some of those other guys and closer to the Derasaw range of things? I do. I mean, this is not a super strong draft at the top. And he still didn't make my top 10. He's my 12th overall prospect in this draft.

So as much as I do like Paris Johnson, I think he's the top tackle this year. I agree with a lot of what Brandon said. I don't think he's necessarily a blue chipper. a guy that's truly one of the best players in this draft. I think he's a right now as a rookie can be a solid starter. And then, you know, his trajectory moving forward, he can be, you know, he can eventually compete for Pro Bowls down the road. But I think that he has enough there that you feel good about the guy you're getting.

But I don't necessarily see someone with special to him. I see a guy with some very good traits and a lot of things to work with. I agree with what Brandon said about just need to show better trust in the technique with his hands. And he's only had one year at left tackle. Like I said before, he was a guard as a sophomore, moved back to left tackle this past year. And I don't know how much he was truly tested at week in, week out. I don't, you know, I think he played very well. But against some of the better competition, like they're on the Georgia tape.

there were a couple times where George is able to get him a little bit off balance and get his weight drifting a little bit. And, you know, I still think that NFL competition is going to be a little bit of a learning curve for him to catch up and, you know, be a little more consistent at the top of his rush, be a little more consistent with a strike timing and placement. So Johnson's a good player. He's going to be a left tackle in this league. But I wouldn't call him a, you know, a top 10 type of prospect. Next question. We're going to do the same range of the draft, but we're going to flip it to right tackle. You need a starting right tackle and every offensive lineman is on the board. I asked this question for two reasons. One, there is a player in the draft who found himself at right tackle and maybe he becomes part of this conversation if it's specified to that position. And two, there's a certain team drafting ninth overall that as things currently stand desperately need a right tackle and I am heavily invested in their success. So I'm curious, Dane, does that answer change? for you if it's right tackle instead of left? Honestly, I'm going to put this on Brandon because Brandon was the guy.

Brandon and I, we text almost every day during the season and during draft prep as we kind of talk about these guys. And darn out right from Tennessee has been one of his favorite players from the get-go. It just raving about darnall right. So I want to hear what Brandon has to say about the Tennessee right tackle. Yeah, my choice would be darnall right. and that's because he's exclusively, in my opinion, the right tackle. You know, whereas Paris Johnson, Georgia left tackle, Roger Jones, even Peter Skoronsky could, you know, potentially move to the right, but we just haven't seen it.

You know, Darnel Wright, we have seen him play left and we have seen him play right, and he's just a different player on the right and much better. Why do you think that is? That's a good question. I mean, I think that's a case-by-case basis. You know, sometimes it's just kind of a body-mechanical. mechanics thing, you know, where guys just feel more comfortable on that side. You know, when I talked to Darnell, he said he sees himself as a left tackle, which I thought was interesting,

because when you look at, you know, I didn't look at a lot of 2021 of Darnell Wright, but I peaked at it, and then you look at, you know, a lot of the 2022 Darnell right or right tackle. There's just different players. Maybe that's just, you know, part of just an overall general kind of maturity thing as a player, maybe as a person, things like that, and it just clicked for him on the right, and maybe it could click for him on the left, you know, now that he's at this level, that's, you know, a potential outcome as well. But, you know, when you just look at the film from the last two seasons, he just looks more comfortable on the right. And yeah, it's a very good question as to as to why. I just think, you know, body mechanics is probably part of it, just feeling more comfortable

technique and then also him just maturing, you know, you know, in that way. But yeah, I would go darn all right. I mean, to me, he's the most powerful offensive lineman in the class, and I'm kind of a sucker for that at the offensive line position. You know, it's funny when I first became exposed to Darnall Wright. Prior to that, I saw a picture of Offensive Line Masterminds. I think I shared this with Dane, and he was there with the contingent of Tennessee guys, one of them being Trey Smith. And Darno Wright is just, I don't want to say towering over Trey Smith,

but he's clearly the bigger person. And I was just like, holy crap, like, Trey Smith is a giant dude. You know, so just just destroying people. Like just destroying people week in and week out in the NFL. I'm darned all right towers over him. Yeah, I mean, he's, he's bigger than him. Like, he's just more broad, you know. And I was just like, that caught my eye.

And then I watched him on film. And I was like, okay, you know, you see the power that you would expect from him. He's heavy-handed. He can create instant movement at the point of attack. But the thing that really sold me on. him was typically when you see these bigger hulking kind of guys, you know, when guys get under and inside of them, they can really fall off the block quickly, lose control of the block. But his contact balance and his ability to sink and brace, you know, and kind of absorb and take on force

in his anchor was really what sold me on him. So he can actually recover much better than you would think for somebody his size. And that to me was really what kind of like sealed the deal and you know, why I gave him like a late first round grade. And that's where I have him. I see him as a right tackle. I think if you get him in like a play action heavy, you know, kind of aggressive downhill scheme at right tackle. I mean, he could be really good right away. So yeah, I would pick darnall right here. Dan, you described him in the first sentence of your strengths portion from the Beast said he has a thick torso and functional mass. And when I first started watching him, my first thought was, God, that's a thick man.

He's just not, he's not as slender as, like you look at Paris Johnson and then you look at darn all right. And their body types are very different. And thick torso is probably how I would describe it. And one of the other notes, Dane from the Beast, I thought was particularly interesting. Because when you look at that body type, you said that some teams have him as a day one starting guard. And that is actually kind of intriguing based on the body type that he has and the skill set

that he has to me. Right. And I think it's because he does kind of have the look of a guard, it's not necessarily he can't play tackle. It's just, okay, would he be even better inside where he can really unleash that play strength and the power that Brandon was talking about? So it's a really interesting, when you have a guy that wasn't really on the radar coming. He was a former five-star guy, so we knew who he was.

but in terms of being a true prospect wasn't really on the radar coming into the year as even a draftable guy because his left tackle tape in 2021 was so bad. But then this year, he quickly turned that around. And as soon as he's going to be drafted, first thing they're going to do is show the Alabama tape from this past year going up against Will Anderson. So when I watched it down. Yeah. I mean, just shut him down completely. And Darnell didn't give up a sack the entire season. So, I mean, he was fantastic from start to finish.

But I think when he gets his hands on people and he can latch, drive, displace, it's pretty much over. So, yeah, I think the bigger question with Darnell is, what's his draft range? Where do you feel comfortable drafting a player like this? Because I, okay, like Brandon, say if your team is drafting 17th. And you need a right tackle. Are you considering Darnell there? Is that maybe a little bit earlier than you would feel comfortable taking them? Yeah, I would really want to know what my offensive line room look like, what my coaching staff look like,

and just kind of this more of the details there, because that is a little high for me. You know, I have a late first round grade on him. So that would be kind of on that, you know, that cutoff where I potentially, if he's like the missing piece, you know, from my offensive line and I, you know, just need a right tackle and I have, you know, kind of a play action oriented multiple at least kind of run scheme, then yeah, I probably would, you know, seriously consider it. But ideally you get him, you know, closer to the back half of round one. And, you know, a couple more things about him, you know, you mentioned the Alabama tape, but he also just played the best, he played the best against the best competition, not only

Alabama, but Georgia LSU Clemson, I thought we're all good tapes as well, you know, against good competition. So that's another feather in his cap. And just to kind of wrap it up with why I have him as a late first round grade, his testing actually surprised me a little bit. I didn't see as kind of a fluid of a mover, you know, as, you know, he may have tested as. I think his foot quickness is more average.

And you see that, you know, on an island, you know, he kind of can create a short corner for himself. against certain rushers. Will Anderson is more of a, you know, speed to power. I'm going to try to run through the middle of you kind of guy. And that just fit perfectly with Darnell right, because Darnell was like, bring it. You know, I mean, he knew going in that he matched up very well with Will Anderson. But then you look at a guy like O'Jolari. And there's a couple other films as well, a little bit more of a bendy kind of guy who can access the corner. Those kind of guys, I think, are going to give him a little bit of trouble in the NFL.

That's why I think kind of scheme and things like that are a little bit more important for him. But yeah, that's kind of the one little concern that I have for him. The other thing with Wright, too, is he's a fourth year senior, but he's still just 21. He doesn't turn 22 until August. So he's one of the younger seniors in this entire class. Dan, you also mentioned there's some balance issues with him sometimes, a little get overaggressive, a little bit top-heavy. So beyond some of the quickness and explosiveness concerns,

there are some technique things to be worried about as well how that might translate to tackle full time in the NFL. Right. And I think that's where maybe some of the, I mean, he might be better at guard where he doesn't have to cover as much space and doesn't have to worry about, you know, drift or anything like that. You know, he pretty much knows what's coming

and he can just, you know, unleash that strength that he has. And I thought it was interesting. Like he didn't do the three comb at the Combiner Pro Day. I was also interesting and injured the bench press either, which I thought that's maybe where he would have shined. But not doing the three cone, you know, that usually when an offensive lineman or anybody chooses not to do the three cone, it's because the testing numbers they were putting up during training just were not where you wanted them to be. And so that was notable.

Paris Johnson also didn't test. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about that, Dane? Would you be worried not having any of those numbers on him if you were going to draft him in the top 10? again, I ask for very specific reasons. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, it's weird. You know, I don't know if it's like, I know like agents sit down with these guys and say, okay, like, you know, if you test, you hit all your peak numbers, you'll be middle of the road with, you know, what teams look for at tackle. But if maybe you're even a little bit behind, then that's where questions might pop up. So let's not even give them questions to talk about. We just won't do it. Like, it is a concern.

There's no question. And, I mean, there's a couple. of offense alignment in this draft who chose not to do specific drills or drills at all that I think are a little bit of a red flag. And so Paris Johnson during his pro day, he did the positional drills, looked good doing them, but, you know, why not give us, you know, the, the vert or any of the, he did the broad jump. That's it. Broad jump in the bench of the combine and didn't do, do anything at his pro day. So, I mean, Brandon, what's your take on that? It would worry me a little bit, not enough to where I'm going to say I'm not going to draft them,

but enough that we're going to have an extra conversation with my coaches and my area scouts and try to just come to make sure we're all comfortable with the type of player he is. Yeah, I think with Paris, once he did that bench, I mean, that was very impressive with 36 plus in charms. That created a little bit of buzz for him, I think, and they probably just felt content, you know, his camp at that point to not prove, you know, feel the need to prove himself and the agilities. And I think when you look on the film, too, I think you can feel pretty comfortable that he has the lateral quickness and the, you know, the redirect skills,

I think, are there, you know, that that one to me isn't too difficult to nail down on the film, but ideally you want to see him. And with Darnell, you know, he told me that his bench wouldn't be very good when I did that film room with him. And it was, you know, it's kind of surprising, but there are some guys, man, who just play extremely powerful, who, you know, the majority of their power comes from, you know, things like their hips, you know, and maybe their hands that don't translate to the bench. You know, the bench isn't necessarily the greatest indicator of play strength, although it is nice to have as well. So that one isn't too surprising to me. I would have liked to seen the agility through Darnell though. That one, because that one is the

one that is a little bit questionable on film to me. Where do you guys think, Brandon, Broderick Jones sits from Georgia compared to some of these other guys. What is the gap between those two that you mentioned at left tackle and somebody like Broderick Jones? Because he's the only one kind of at the top of the draft that we didn't really hit in this stretch. Yeah, I mentioned earlier, I mentioned there's a cluster of guys, you know, and to me it's Paris one, Broderick Jones two and Darnell Wright III. And they're very tightly, you know, cluster like I said. So, but yeah, Broderick Jones to me is the most raw, technically, of these three. But you could argue he's the most talented.

in terms of just pure physical tools and traits. You know, he checks the boxes, you know, high weight length for sure. Man, he's a very, very good blocker on the move in space. You know, he looks the part, you know, on, you know, those pole leading and wrapping plays, you know, kicking out the fourth corner and, you know, chasing down the third level safety and all that kind of stuff. He can do that at a high level. He has a lot of natural power.

very physical. He checks the boxes physically in every way that you could want. It's just, you know, when you watch him, especially earlier in the season, he just had some glaring, you know, losses where his technique falls apart, you know, misses with his hands, let guys get on, get, let rushers get under inside of him, driving back, pry him open, you know, it just kind of falls apart for him a little bit more than these other guys. but then you watch him, you know, throughout the season, he got better and better and better.

And it's like, okay, you know, if he continues on this trajectory, he's also 21 years old, I would not be surprised at all if he's the best tackle from this class in three, four years. I think, you know, if he's the first offensive lineman drafted, I wouldn't be too surprised, you know, or concerned, honestly. So, yeah, he's right there with these guys, I think. It's just a pick your flavor kind of thing. Dan, I'm pretty sure that Paris Johnson is the 12th rank player on your board,

and Broderidge Jones is 15. So there's not that big of a gap between them for you. No, and I remember tweeting this out during the national championship game with Ohio State and Georgia tweeting out how, hey, this might be a battle of see who's going to be the first tackle drafted. Because I know there are some teams that have Broderick Jones OT1 on their board. They're believing in the talent. And he's played the fewest number of snaps among all these guys we're going to be talking about. basically a one-year starter, a full-time starter.

He started four games in 2021, but didn't really become the full-time guy until this year. And so you could see him learning on the fly. You know, there are times you throw on the Missouri tape and watch him against Isaiah McGuire, who is a borderline top 100 pick in this draft. And you see him, McGuire, just be able to bully him backwards, put him on his heels, into the pocket, into the quarterback, when his hands weren't right. but then you see the next play and you see these movement skills where he's getting out in space and doing some things that most left tackles just can't do.

So he has the foot quickness. It's that basketball background that he has. You know, in the offseason, he said he would get down to about 275 and just really lean, really svel. And then bulk back up when it's time for the football season and get back up to 310, where his normal playing weight is. And he would do that comfortably because he has this body type and he has the athletic tools to do it. So not a big surprise to see him test the way that he did.

He came in actually bigger and longer than we expected. He was listed at, I think, 6'4 at Georgia, comes in over almost 6'5 and a half. It's the first time that's ever happened. Never happened before, right? And, I mean, the length I had on him from the preseason was 33 and a half. And then he comes in 34 and 3 quarters. It's like, okay, wait a minute.

He's super long, too. And just 21 years old, still learning, still figuring things out. Yeah, I can understand why a team is going to bet on the talent and say, okay, we can coach this guy up. We're not drafting him for who he is right now. We're drafting him for, you know, two, three years from now and what this guy's going to look like. I'm looking at his mock draftable page right now. And I enjoy mock draftable. You guys haven't used before.

They like spider charts for measurables. And they have player comparisons on the left side. So guys that have similar athletic profiles. Braxton Jones from last year, his number one comp physically is Broderick Jones. Yeah, put him on the right side. If you're curious, the bears might have a type in terms of measurables at that position. All right, let's get a little bit further outside of this top tier at the position. Dane, who is your favorite tackle outside of your top 50?

We can talk about a couple of these guys. I'd probably go Matthew Bergeron. here, the Syracuse left tackle, who Canadian native, got a great backstory, how, you know, started, you know, picked up football, you know, it wasn't a big sport where he grew up. And he actually, he was about 12 years old. He got on a bus and went down to a Syracuse camp. Zero recruiting interest. I mean, FBS teams were not on him.

Goes to this camp at Syracuse and a couple days later gets the, gets this offer. And nobody knew about him except for Syracuse. And he was a starter almost from day one there. First right tackle, then he moved to left tackle. And he got better and better and better. Not super long, but I really like the way he moves. I really like the way he can shift his weight.

He brings a very kind of refined approach to the way he operates. Doesn't mean it's always perfect. but you can tell that he, technique matters to him. I think he's a better one blocker than pass blocker. So I wouldn't be surprised if he starts out at guard for some teams, if that's just how, you know, the way they, their current offensive line room is built and they can have that luxury where start him at guard before kicking him out the tackle eventually.

But I do think that, you know, Bergeron, if we're talking outside the top 50, and I think he'll somewhere between 50 and 75, Burr's wrong would be somewhere in that mix. Brandon, how about you? Outside the top 50 of Dane's top 50. Just in the second round range, let's say. Yeah, I think he is the 50th player on Dane's board,

but I went with Oklahoma tackle Anton Harrison here. He's a guy I have a high second round grade on. You know, man, checks the boxes physically, like a lot of these other guys in terms of, you know, height, weight, length. He's very young as well. I don't think, yeah, he's going to be 21 his entire rookie year. He just turned 21 in February. So he may be the youngest of these guys. You know, the things I like about his film so much is his play strength, I think, is very good right now. And I think his past pro technique is also good in terms of his movement skills. You know, I think his grip strength is, you know, close to elite level. Once he gets locked in on guys, the rep is typically over. And, you know, I, I, I mentioned that age, I think he could even get a little bit better, you know, a little bit more physically mature over time as well because he is so young.

So I like him. You know, he has 24 starts, you know, almost all left tackle. The biggest concern with him and why I have him, you know, late second is his adjustment to the pro game specifically with scheme, I think is going to be, you know, certainly a process. when you watch Oklahoma, it's, you know, 60, 40 run-pass split, heavy RPO, quick passes, you know, tunnel screen, swings, all that kind of stuff. So he's not having a pass protect, you know, in a whole lot of space that often. Also in the Big 12, a lot of three-man fronts, a lot of, you know, odd fronts on passing downs as well. He's, he has five techniques that he's blocking a lot of the time. So not only does the scheme help him, but also the opponents that he's facing in terms of their alignment. That's also, those two things are probably going to change, you know, quite a bit in the NFL. Not that he won't, you know, be in an RPO offense or anything like that, but he's just going to have to deal with more space. There are reps like that on film, though.

The Kansas State tape is one that pops up. Big 12 defensive player of the year, I think, you know, as well, their edge rusher. They're, you know, that was a good tape for him. It wasn't perfect, but you saw him, you know, get out in space and have to set. on a wide nine with some drop back passes. So he can do it. It's just he hasn't been asked to do it a lot. And I think that transition for him is going to take some time.

But he has all the physical traits to make it work. I think, you know, his best football is ahead of him. He's for sure my favorite tackle outside of the guys that we already talked about. Second round tackles is, though, it's been an interesting history. And for a while, it was hard to find a guy that was even starting caliber in that stretch of the draft. But over the last like five or six years, there's been decent amount of guys outside the top 50 that have turned into reliable to good starters. Brian O'Neill, Dionne Dawkins, sit there on the left side of Buffalo for a long time, Taylor Moten, Rob Havenstein. So there are some

of these guys that have been drafted in that range that have become, you know, five, six, seven years starters in the NFL. And Harrison's, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like that offense that he's coming from, it just, it makes it a difficult to, evaluation, but you can see, obviously, the movement skills. You can see how much talent he has in that body. And there's so much more we haven't seen from him. But yeah, it makes it a little bit difficult when you have to put a grade on him. And you have to actually, you know, figure out where we feel comfortable drafting him, where does he sit on our draft board? Because there's so much projection involved with him. But no, I mean, I agree with you. He's a really talented player.

Speaking of projection, where does DeWan Jones fit in this conversation for you, Dane? Because he is a fascinating prospect. I mean, you watch him and watching Paris Johnson, obviously, you do it at the same time. And just even how much bigger he is than the guy that's going to go in the top 15 that he played with. He's just a massive, massive man. Yeah, and, you know, something clicked for him this year. You know, he, he, this is, I think it's a second full year starting at right tackle. And watching him over the summer, I,

I wasn't impressed. I mean, it's just this big guy trying to get in front of people. This year, he looked a lot more controlled, a lot more, his balance improved, which isn't the easiest thing to do. But I think it was a combination of confidence. And the biggest thing I think for DeWan was him finally understanding, I'm not a basketball player. I'm a football player. His entire life, he thought of himself as a basketball player. And I think even when he got to Ohio State, you know, he kind of still thought of himself as a basketball player playing football. And I think it really, something clicked for him this past off season where he bought in completely and said, all right, I'm a football player now. And you saw that in his play this year.

He was, he was fantastic all year. He did a really nice job, getting centered. And again, I don't know how much he was actually tested, but he played well all season. You just don't see guys walking around that can move like him that are six, eight and a half, 375 pounds. It is interesting that he was 374 at the Combine, then chose not to weigh in at the Pro Day, which, you know. That number started with the four. Right. I mean, you always wonder when that happens.

But then he didn't even work out. He chose not to work out at the Pro Day. And that was, I know that turned some teams off with that decision not to work out or do anything. So, but this guy, and we only saw him one day at the Senior Bowl. So I liked them a lot based off the tape, or a lot meaning I liked him as a second round player based on the tape. And then throughout the draft process, I soured just a little bit because we saw him only one day at the Senior Bowl. And then, you know, he did just the 40th of the Combine and didn't do any of the Pro Day. And, you know, some of the concerns that I had, he wasn't able to necessarily answer those.

But yeah, he's just a very unique player that some teams, there are a lot of teams that really. value size and length and especially at right tackle where, you know, traditionally right tackle is your run blocker. And, you know, a lot of teams don't think of it that way anymore, but some teams do. And so for teams that really value that size, I can understand why DeWan Jones is going to be in the mix for them somewhere at some point there in the second round. Brenna, what's the issue for guys of that size typically? Like technically, where do they struggle compared to people who might have a more traditional frame?

Yeah, I mean, I think for him and other guys his size, it's an over-reliance on his size, specifically his length. I think he's just, you know, his feet don't always come with him into the block. You know, he'll reach out and try to get guys, and that just can create him, you know, create overextension, create leaning. And he doesn't have the quickness to recover. I mean, if he's out of position initially, you know, the recovery aspect at 375, 3080, pounds just isn't there. He does have really good initial quickness. He gets to his spots quickly, which is very impressive to see at his size. But from there, when things break down, they break down in a hurry. So I think for him just being more patient, and we saw him do that in flashes and more this

year than last year, I think that's going to be huge. If he can learn to really maximize his size, really like Orlando Brown does, I mean, Orlando Brown gets to his spot and he protects inside out on guys. He doesn't get beat inside and you're not going to beat him down the middle. You've got to go outside. If DeWan can learn to kind of harness that a little bit more and play with more patience, I think, you know, he's going to be a long time starter probably. I have him as a mid-second round grade. He's my fifth tackle, you know, in the class. And I think he's also an answer to one of our other questions that we may have, we're going to get to, player with the widest range of outcomes.

He's my pick for that because some of what Dane touched on, there's an unknown element here of, you know, like how much does he want to be great at, you know, football and those kind of things. You know, fair or unfair, I just wonder about it. You know, not that he's necessarily given us reasons to wonder about it, but I would just love to have that question answered for sure, and we just can't really do that on the outside. but, man, if I knew that he was, you know, dead set on being, you know, a great right tackle, man, I could see him, you know, being like a Trent Brown, Orlando Brown. You know, he's different than those guys, a little bit more like Trent Brown, in my opinion, than Orlando Brown. But I could see him having a similar type of career where he's, you know, a long time, good starter. I think in a place like Cincinnati or Kansas City make a lot of sense for him at the end of the first round if he were to go that high.

just based on what they like and things like that. I think Kansas City would be a great spot for him. I mean, man, if he went to Kansas City, you know, I think that would be great for Duan Jones, great coaching, great scheme, all that kind of stuff. He needs to go to that kind of situation, I think. It's no coincidence that he has been, I don't know who has been on the most 30 visits, which prospect, but he's in the running for the most 30 visits the last month because that's what teams are trying to figure out.

trying to get a better sense. I mean, Mike Tomlin and the Steelers taking him out to dinner the night before the pro day. I mean, he has been on the go. That's hell of a bill, I'm sure. That's why he didn't weigh in the next day. I mean, there's no mystery here. So, I mean, teams are trying to figure these questions out because there's a lot of redeemable qualities here. It's just you have to be 100% comfortable with the player.

So let's do that question, Dan. Let's get your answer. And it was funny that you mentioned Kansas City and Andy Heck there, Brandon, because my kind of second part, the tagline of that question was who needs the right offensive line coach, the guy who has the widest range of outcomes, who needs to land in the right spot? What would your answer to that be, Dana, of the tackles? I think I probably say Broderick Jones, just because I think he has so much talent that he could be any, I think it's because his upside could be so great because he could, his peak of what he could be is,

you know, a top seven tackle, top five to seven tackle in the league, he could be that. That is a potential outcome for him. But it's going to take a lot of coaching and someone to stay on him to reach that point. Right now, where he is, I think he could be a serviceable starter. But I think to really be, to get everything that he has, to get all the talent maximized, I think there's a way, a wide range of what he could end up being because the technique is just not there yet. So let's talk about some of the interior guys. The way I phrased this question is mostly because the guys on your draft guide, Dane, on the interior, mostly second round picks.

So I wanted to ask you, which interior offensive linemen maybe outside the first round is your favorite potential plug-in-play starter? Steve Avila from TCU, I would lean him. He's a guy, you never know. Maybe he does sneak into the first round. I know the Cowboys like him, a few other teams in the back half of round one like him. But more likely he goes in round two. And you want a guy that's played multiple position. Okay, he's got at least one start at four of the five positions.

You know, he is, I compared him to kind of like a Jonah Jackson, who's been a nice player for the Lions for the last, what, three years now. You know, he is big. You know, he's six three and a half, 330 pounds. But he moves fairly well. You know, he is a guy that, you know, gets into position. I really like his mirror skills. Now, I think that his ability to counter needs to be a little bit better.

But he gets in a position, and once he gets his hands on you, I mean, he knows what to do. So A Vila is a guy, I think, is going to be a really popular plug-and-play guard once we get to that second round. How about you, Brandon? That was my pick as well, Steve Avila. So it was between him or Osiris Torrance, who I have a very similar grid. I have second run grades on both of them. But I lean Avila over Torrance, actually, a little bit. Interesting. Okay.

Yeah. So, and the reason for that, I mean, Torrance is, you know, bigger and longer. And Avila, I think, has a little bit more body control and the proven versatility as well, you know, where Torrance doesn't have those things. I think Torrance is a little bit more of a liability, you know, on climbs and, you know, in space than Avila. you know and then you know just not having that back pocket ability to play center maybe right tackle and a pinch i just you know i gave a vila a slight edge there but that that one really is a pick your flavor toss up to me but dain touched on a little bit of it with the vila you know i think it's really interesting he comes from an air raid system at tc u but they're 55 45 45 run pass split and

they're a downhill run game i mean they're running duo inside zone power counter so he was in a system for you know his skill set especially this past season so you know you see his tape against maisie smith from michigan is just is one of the best tapes you'll watch this entire draft season in my opinion those guys are both going to be i think you know quality NFL players and um a villa got the better of him maisie smith got the better of you know vila once i think but i think Avila won that matchup overall. That's a really good film to see what Avila can bring. And even the Georgia game, even though they got blown out by 60 or whatever, Avila had a

good game. You know, he had a couple really good reps against Jalen Carter. And as that game wore on and that game was out of reach, Avila had some reps, play 60, play 70, down 50, down 60, where he's just, you know, driving guys into the ground. And, you know, I think scouts are going to really love that. for sure for him. So size, play strength, and then the movement skills are good enough to keep things in front of him, you know, at a pretty good level.

I mean, I think he's a solid starter. That's probably his floor and his ceiling. You said Osiris, you had Osiris Torrance from Florida as your 37th player, Dan, so kind of right on that first, second barrier. How much of a difference do you see between him and Avila? Are they similar players in your mind in terms of range? Yeah, and I agree with a lot of what Brand said there. I do think there's, I could see why one team would prefer a Vila, another team might prefer

Torrance. And, you know, part of that is the versatility, is not having any experience outside of guard. And it was good to see Torrance at the Senior Bowl play both guard spots. One thing I do really appreciate about Torrance was he was already really highly rated by NFL scouts after his junior year at Louisiana. he didn't have to transfer. He could have stayed put and still would have been a top 50 pick in this draft, but he decided to kind of challenge himself. He followed his head coach to Florida, and his play did not fall off at all against better competition week in, week out in the SEC.

So seeing Osiris Torrance test himself this past year, that was really great to see from him. He is a big, thick, everything about him is big. His hands were over 11 inches. His wingspan is humongous. Not a great athlete, but he's a guy that plug and play. He's going to be able to step in from day one, be a starting guard, and you're going to feel really comfortable with him in your starting lineup. What about your guy, Cody Mock, Dane?

I was going to bring him up for... Okay, all right, all right. All right, that's fine. We'll get to him. As long as I get to hear about him in some way, that's what's important to me. We haven't talked about the centers at all. Joe Tipman is your highest ranked center day. A fascinating kind of prospect when you consider his body type compared to other guys we typically see at the position.

He's 6-6. He's very tall. I mean, how would you compare him to some of the other centers that kind of would be expected to be early starters drafted in that range that we've seen recently? Yeah, he's really unique where we don't see guys that size. And he was a left tackle in high school. And he gets to Wisconsin. Wisconsin traditionally, they love to cross-train their guys. So, you know, they want guys, guards playing center, tackles playing guard.

And they wanted Tipman to play some center too, just to get that under his belt. So if they needed him, he could do it. And so it just turns out in 2021 to get the best five on the field, Tipman was playing, they asked Tipman to play center. And that's where he did. And he played really well. He's all Big Ten. And so they just kept them there.

And so that's where he played the last two years. I do think he has it in him to play multiple positions. I don't tackle might be a little bit of a stretch. But I think he'd be fine at guard, no problem. This is especially, you know, you think about, I would love to see him and like the Titans offense. You know, get him on the move. He's got range. Short pools, long pulls.

You know, there's a lot about his movement skills. Maybe he spends a little bit too much time on the ground and sacrifices balance a little too much. But his mobility is a big part of what he does. Really strong player. So I'm a big believer in Tipman and what he is and what he's going to be. And so I, but it's, it's a little concerned. We don't have any testing information from him. He was not, he had a hamstring injury, was not able to test.

Also a little bit of a concern. We've never seen him play guard. We've only seen him play center. So those are some concerns, but I still believe in the talent. And I would take those chances. We've really only seen three centers start multiple years over the last decade that are six, six or taller. Those three guys are Ethan Pochich this year. I mean, what he did in Cleveland, I think was kind of a revelation compared to what he had been earlier in his career.

He got a second contract there. Brandon, there you go. There's good, good answer. Brandon Linder is 6-6, and the other guy is Justin Britt, who did not come into the NFL as his center. So those are really the only three guys, because I was interested in how many we've actually seen. Mitch Morse also is listed at 6-6 in the NFL,

but at the combine, he was only 6-5. So that's another guy. All these Missouri guys that were tackles that moved inside in the NFL that ended up playing center. It seems to be a little bit of a theme with him and Mitch Morse. Well, that's actually, that's my, Mitch Morse is my comp for Cody Mock, who I wouldn't be surprised if three years

from now. Cody Mock's the best center from this class. So it matches up. We did this for the receivers, Dan. I wanted to do it for the offensive line. And we do any position here. Who is the guy that you are higher on than consensus at this stage of the process? I'm going to go with Chandler Zavala, an NC State Guard. Brandon, I hope I didn't take yours.

But I don't. Okay. Zavala's, he's kind of a, he was a late addition to my radar, watching him a little bit during the season, liked him. And you could watch him last year when watching Icky at left tackle because Zavala was playing left guard. But under the radar, didn't get a combine invite. But there's a reason he's been visiting a lot of teams over the last month on 30 visits. Because this guy can. play. He's got a really interesting background. He was at Fairmont State before transferring, got to NC State, missed the back of the second half of 2021. And then this year he was fully healthy. And his tape is really, really good. I mean, he has day two tape. And if he doesn't go day two, I'll kind of be a little surprised because that's what tape says, where he should go. So the medicals be important just because he's got some back stuff in his past. But, But you see the play strength, you see the foot quickness, you see the build.

He can move laterally. He's a smart player. He knows how to recover. So Chandler Zavala, it feels like I'm a little bit higher on him than, you know, most. But the tape shows a good player. How about you, Brennan? Yeah, I'm with Dane on that one. I looked up the consensus board pro football network, I want to say.

and he's like, you know, 250 plus. And for us, he's, you know, right at the end of the top 100. So, yeah, you know, for a lot of the reasons, Dane said, another one of the guys for me is Nick Saldivari. He's your 77th player, Dame. If he's 250 and the consensus board, you've met 77. That's a pretty drastic change. We have him in 84.

So, yeah, I mean, yeah, we're kind of similar on that one, I think, with me and Dane. But I'll go with Nick Saldivari, old dominion tackle. at the Senior Bowl. He, you know, for the consensus is 185 and we have him at 65. So I'm much higher on him than the consensus, but 6-6, about 320, you know, pretty decent length, 33 and change. Tested very well athletically and it translates on film. So I came to him a little bit backwards. You know, I think a lot of people, you know, were exposed to him at the Senior Bowl and then maybe went the tape. I didn't really watch him much at the Senior Bowl a little bit, but, you know, I really dug into the tape over the last couple weeks and watched a lot of his games this past season.

And I saw a guy who could, in my opinion, should play tackle first. You know, I think even at the Senior Bowl, you saw he was not quite as comfortable a guard. You know, he could do that, I think, but at tackle, I think he's a skilled pass protector. He does a really, really. good job of staying square inside out on rushers. He's really good with his hands. He does a really nice job of not giving rushers anything to chop or swipe at. He shows his hands, takes him away. He's a nuanced, skilled kind of pass protector. And it's really impressive to watch. He's very good at handling games. And, you know, he's a loose kind of mover, quick feet. You know, I think that, you know, drive blocking and things like that, you know, anchoring. His anchor tech.

technique is actually really good, but he kind of dies slowly in that. I mean, he could get a little bit stronger, I think, but he has the size to do it. He has the frame. He has a good build. He's athletic and he's skilled. I think this guy, man, you know, I compared him to Doug Fri, you know, former Cowboys right tackle, who coming out of Illinois, I believe, was extremely athletic as well, and then got hurt, and then his athletic ability kind of dipped. But then he was just this crafty guy out there who just played a long time, you know, He was a fourth round pick, Doug Free? Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. Yeah, I think I thought I felt good about that comparison. Some comparisons I hate doing, but that one I felt pretty good about. But yeah, I like Saldivari. I think that he could come in, compete for a backup role, swing tackle role, maybe a swing interior role right away. And he could, you know, spot start early on and potentially become a starter, you know, within, certainly within his first contract, I think. Saltevery is my favorite lineman in the draft because Duke Manyweather and Jeff Schwartz did their big boys club on Fox and they did a competition where they all went to a barbecue buffet and they weighed themselves before and after and he gained 10 pounds during the meal. So he is my hero and absolutely my favorite linemen in this entire draft. All right. Let's turn down. I have done that before. I gained eight pounds during one Thanksgiving because my fiance's family used to do that. They had a competition where you'd weigh yourself before and after. And I, the first year, year I did it, I gained eight pounds. We haven't done it since. I broke their spirits.

All these, yeah, inviting me to do that competition was a terrible idea on their part. All right, let's go to the negatives very quickly here. Dana, guy, you're lower on than consensus. I'm going to go with, yeah, I hate being lower on guys, but, you know, it has to happen. I'll go with Olu, Oluwitimi, the Michigan Center. who I don't know, I just don't get it. A lot of people have them in the top 100, day two pick. I don't know. I don't see that.

If you're calling me a day two pick, you're calling me a future or plug and play starter. I don't see. I see a center only who doesn't displace. I don't see explosiveness at the point of attack. I see a very smart assignment sound player who did a nice job in college, I think in the NFL is going to have a much tougher time executing at that type of level. So I put a fifth, six round grade on him, a guy that, you know, a potential backup. I just, I don't see this guy as a plug-in-play starter like a lot of people have labeled him as.

Oh, he has 98 on the consensus board. And, Dan, you have him as a fifth-six round pick. So that is a pretty big gap. Brandon, how about you? Who are you a little bit lower on? Yeah, well, I'm a lot lower on a couple guys. BYU tackle Blake Freeland is one that I'm much lower on and also USC guard Andrew Borgies. But we'll go with BYU tackle Blake Freeland who set the combine record for vertical jump, jump 37 inches at 300 pounds, 6 foot 8.

You know, man, when you look at him on paper, it's very impressive. You know, he has a lot of starts. He started 41 games at BYU as well. He was at the Senior Bowl. Family of athletes, bloodlines, all that for your starter. But, man, I mean, I saw a guy who lacked balance, coordination, sluggish footwork and pass protection. I didn't like his leverage or power. I saw like, you know, like a Connor McDermott.

You know, that was my comparison for him. And that's kind of what I see, you know, probably a career backup. I mean, if I had Bill Callahan or Jeff Stoutland and they wanted him in, you know, the fourth or the fifth, you know, okay. But I gave him a six-round grade, you know, I just, I think the range of outcomes are pretty low for him, even though he is just, you know, kind of this raw athlete. But, yeah, I just didn't see it, man. I watched a lot of his film. I just think the road that he has to travel to get to a competent starter is pretty long. And unless he goes to a few select places, I don't know if it's going to happen.

Dan, you're kind of aligned with this. He's 90th on the consensus board. He's a fifth round pick for you. Yeah, I mean, the tape just doesn't match. And it's nice that he ran the fastest 40 and some of the testing was awesome. And he's a young player. He's still just 21 years old. but I think a lot of the key central traits that you look for in an NFL tackle,

he just falls short. And he's got a very interesting background. I mean, he is a sophomore. He was a sophomore in high school, he was like this 6,790 pound quarterback. I mean, he didn't play offensive line until he got to BYU. So, I mean, there's still a lot of new things that he's learning. So I'm not ready to just completely close the. door, but I do think that it's, there's a lot of worries that, you know, I wouldn't feel,

wouldn't feel great taking him before, um, at least the fifth round at that point. All right. Speaking of the fifth round, last question here for you guys, your favorite dart throw outside of the top, let's say 100, your favorite kind of mid to late round guy that you would want to take a swing on. Dan, take us home here. Uh, well, my guy Jake Witt from Northern Michigan, who I did the story on, uh, uh, who is just an awesome story.

He would definitely be my sleeper to look for. I think he's going to get drafted. But I'm going to go with City South, Eastern Michigan Guard, who is another Canadian native, didn't grow up playing, you know, football from, you know, the time he's four years old, kind of developed it over time. And he is a just kind of looks like a guard. Like some guys just, you know, look the part when you watch him. He's one of those guys.

played a lot of football in eastern Michigan. He set the record for starts, 55 starts, most of those at left guard. He is, I think a lot of things that you look for at the position with the size, the way he's so aggressive in the contact. He can anchor well, both, you know, short sets and after he resets, physical, strong hands. I just see a lot of the foundational traits that I would want in an NFL blocker. And I think for the asking price, which I feel like I could get him in a fifth round, but anywhere on day three, I would be comfortable taking a chance on him. Brian, how about you?

Yeah, that's a really good one. I like so quite a bit. But for me, you know, I had an interior and tackle here. So I'll just stick with the tackle. My interior guy was Ricky Stromberg from Arkansas. but tackle. A guy I really liked on film was Pittsburgh left tackle Carter Warren, who is understandably not getting a lot of hype because he's been injured.

I think he tore his MCL or something in his knee after the first four games of this season. But even going back to 2021, his game against Miles Murphy was really impressive. His 2021 film is really good, I thought. but he didn't test or anything like that. So he's kind of flying under the radar. But it's 65, 311, almost 36-inch arms. And the great thing about his length is he maximizes it. And that's why I like him so much.

There's some guys with that arm length who can't really block anybody necessarily. They're not very good with their hands. But he knows how to maximize his length. He uses quick, well-timed independent strikes. He's very skilled using his hands. So, you know, that's really the biggest thing for me is him in past protection. I think that he could come in and compete for probably a job, you know, and if not anything else, be kind of a swing tackle.

All of his starts are a left tackle, but you watch him in 2021. They do this six offensive line thing at Pittsburgh. Ben, they did where he moves over to the right. So he had quite a bit of snaps over there so he could at least see it. He's a little bit older, you know. He turned 24. already. But I think pass protection-wise, especially, and, you know, size, frame, build, things like that, he's ready to go, ready to compete for a job. And yeah, I mean, I have him, you know, as, I think,

a fourth round grade. I compared him to Joe Nobom. See kind of a similar kind of player there. But, yeah, I think he's a really good guy to target early day three. I dropped the ball. I forgot to mention Cody Mock. That's my fault. Where did he fit? Because I was wondering where you were going to try to slot him in. The widest range of outcomes on the interior or the offensive line. Just because he's a college tackle who, you know, we've never really seen him at guard. Can he play center?

All these questions about him. So I think there's a wide range of outcomes for Cody Mock. I just know I want him on my team. That's all I know. He seems like a delightful presence. You would just to like hang around. I want to be around that guy. The first time I ever saw a picture of him, I was like, I'm in.

I'm in 100% in. He's been missing his two front teeth since seventh grade and doesn't plan to get him replaced until he's done with football. So, you know, that could be a while because he's a good player. And he also, the best three cone, I've almost, one of the best three cones I've ever seen for an offensive lineman at his pro day, 712, which Tyler Linderbaum, one of the most athletic offensive line and we've seen in the last 10 years. He was 7-1-3. So Cody Mock was below what Linderbaum did

with his three cone, which is just moving crazy. It's just a great bit of branding, understanding the two-front-tee thing and sticking with it. I just a ton of respect for that. All right, that is all we've got. Thank you very much to both of you guys.

Dan, I know you're very busy. I know, Brandon, you've got a ton going on as well. Thank you very much for spending the time. is one of my favorite conversations to have every single year. We have about 140 minutes of offensive line talk on the athletic football show running today. So you guys can spend your entire weekend really digging into the big guys, both the ones that have succeeded recently, the ones that have fallen short, and the ones in this year's class.

If you have not gone and checked out are part two of this with Mitchell Schwartz and Marshall Newhouse, So you can do that right now. Please go do it. Really good conversation with those guys about why some of the players that we talk, that they're going to be drafted in the same range. As a lot of these guys that we just discussed, how fallen short over the last five to 10 years, incredibly instructive discussion with two really smart guys

who played in the league for a very long time. So please go check that out. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. If you listen on Apple Podcast, just tell us why you like it. We would really appreciate it. I consider it a favor. Please subscribe to the athletic. all of the stuff that we just talked about with the Beast and these rankings and all of these detailed breakdowns,

this is where you can get it. The athletic.com slash football show, the only spot where the Beast is available. Really encourage you guys to do that. Brandon, where can people read and listen and watch the stuff that you're doing right now? Yeah, trench warfare. Dot substack.com. And then all my scouting reports are, again, on Leisure Report. All the scouting reports.

And Brandon has several kind of deep, in-depth film rooms with several of the guys we talked about today. Darno Wright, Peter Skoransky, Duon Jones, really detailed conversations with these guys about their film from the previous year. Again, stuff you're not really going to be getting anywhere else. Brandon attacks these guys in this position unlike anybody else really does. So highly encourage you guys to go check that out if you want to learn more about offensive line play. A lot of people ask, where can I learn more about this stuff? I want to become a better, smarter football fan. Brandon's work is definitely one of the first places that I would point you.

So please go check that out. And thank you guys very much for spending. the time with us. We will be back on Monday with my good friend Bill Barnwell. Until then, I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.