The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The 2023 TE draft class with Dane Brugler + Nate Tice; Why the college-to-NFL transition can be tough for TEs, with Jack Doyle

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Don't take it from the person who writes these descriptions, take it from The Athletic's NFL Draft expert Dane Brugler himself...this is as deep a tight end class as we've seen in the time that Dane's been writing The Beast. He and Nate Tice join Robert Mays to dive into the top-six players in the class on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Then, Jack Doyle discusses with Robert why tight ends typically take longer than players at other positions to find their footing in the NFL.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Dane on Twitter: @dpbruglerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by Betterhelp. Visit betterhelp.com/mays to get 10% off your first month1:48 Latest rumblings at the top of the draft12:29 Michael Mayer22:00 Dalton Kincaid32:55 Luke Musgrave41:58 Darnell Washington51:01 Tucker Kraft57:44 Sam LaPorta62:52 TEs to know outside the top-two rounds68:38 A conversation with former NFL TE Jack Doyle Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. It's Tight End's Day here at the Athletic Football Show. We're going to chat about this year's class. We're also going to talk with former NFL tight end, Jack Doyle, about the development curve at that position. And maybe why it's a little bit slower than it might be at some other spots?

Because I think that this class has to have so many highly drafted guys, the teams are just going to expect these dudes to be Gronk and Travis Kelsey on Day. one, and that's not typically how it works. So I wanted to chat with Jack about some of the nuances of the position and maybe why it's a little bit slower than it might be at other spots. But to dig in to this year's class, I am joined by two guys who I could not picture two better people with whom to have this conversation. First of all, our draft guru at the athletic, it's Dan Bruegler. Dan, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. This is a fun position to talk about, so I can't wait to get into this conversation. And again, somebody I know it's going to have a good time today it's Nate Tice Nate how you doing bud having a great time

already yeah usually tight ends it's like there's one guy to talk about then a couple of you know middle round late round guys oh and we group it together with like running backs like a different position to talk about nope this year gets its own show last last year is like that right I mean last year we have not done tight ends we've never done tight ends on their own but I think this year warrants it and Nate the reason I know you're going to love this is because every time we do a wide receiver show you're always trying to sneak in what kind of blockers they are at the receivers when no one gives a shit. And here it actually does matter.

So congratulations. I'm very happy for you. You're going to hear some repeated phrases here about bend and technique and hand usage. It's going to be great. That's a needle moving conversation that I'm sure everybody can't wait to listen to it. Big time. Right. We're just crack an audience record numbers over here at the athletic football show.

All right. Before we dig into the tight ends, though, I wanted to take a step back and kind of address the rumor mill around the NFL draft this week because we haven't really talked about the quarterbacks or the ordering of the quarterbacks for any of that in a while because, again, we're really giving people the red meat here at the podcast. So, Dane, I wanted to chat with you about some of the stuff you've either seen publicly reported or even some of the stuff that you've been hearing about this week. It really does seem like, according to all the rumblings out there, that Bryce Young is probably going to be the number one pick in the draft or it seems

like it's trending in that direction. Do you feel like we're getting to a place where it seems like Bryce Young to Carolina is probably going to be the answer here. Closer we get, the more confident I think we become, that will be the pick. And I can't tell you what the Panthers are going to do, but I can tell you what I think other teams believe the Panthers are going to do. And that's take Brayshong. So, and obviously he's my top quarterback. He's my top player in the draft.

I'm on board with that. It makes perfect sense to me. The intrigue starts at two. It sure does. Yeah. And that's where, you know, credit to, you know, Lance Zerline. He's, we've been talking about on Prospects of Prosks of Pros. For a while now.

And even, Robert, going back to that Combine episode we did, the episode right out of the Combine, we mentioned how it's not a, you know, not everybody was universal in their thoughts at the Combine that the Texans were going to take a quarterback at two. And, you know, I think from the outside looking in, it's easy to say, yeah, they need a quarterback. But we have to remember, this is a first year head coach,

a new coaching staff. I don't think they feel pressured that it's, quarterback or bust, we need to find that guy here. If they're not universal in their belief, there's a quarterback at two. If Bryce Young ends up going one, and that's what I've been told is that offensive staff in Houston, the coaching staff, is not 100% consensus on board. There's a quarterback worth taking it to. Then Nick Casario, can you really drop the quarterback there? And if that's the case, are you trading out? Are you taking the best non-quarterback on your board, whether that's Tyree Wilson or Will Anderson?

a lot of intrigue there at that number two pick. Do you feel like they want to leave this draft with a quarterback if they don't get one at two? Or is it something where they would just punt on the position in the first round overall? Because we know they're in a unique position. They have multiple first round picks next year. And they're probably going to be bad. And we've heard about what the quarterback group is going to look like next year. So do you think it's that they don't think they want to draft one at two or there's a world where they don't even draft a quarterback in this first round?

I mean, both. I can see both scenario playing out because they have that 12th. pick, obviously, and they can play around with it. If they want to go up and make a trade and, you know, say, you know, they're all in on, or not all in, but say they like Anthony Richardson, they feel like at a certain point, he's worthy of, you know, rolling that dice. If he's available, say, the seventh pick, Anthony Richardson, do they move up five spots to go get a guy like that where it's not going to be this prohibitive cost?

Maybe they do that, which, you know, rarely do we ever see with a team as multiple early picks, they draft the quarterback with the second one. You know, there's not a great track record of that happening and actually working out, but, you know, this is, Houston's at a weird spot right now because like you said, they do have multiple picks that next year. They can wait. They're not going to be forced to go in a certain direction. It's going to be really interesting to see how they play this.

And Nate, it feels like if that does happen, if the timeline unfolds where the Texans don't take a quarterback with a second overall pick, the winner seems to be the Colts, because then there's a world where there are two quarterbacks on the board at four when they pick or there are two quarterbacks, one of which they might like more than the other, available at three and they can move up. So it just seems like the dominoes fall such a different way if the Texans choose to make that decision at number two. Yeah, after the Panthers moved up and things were starting to get broken down and more

rumors are coming when everyone assumed, including myself, I was like, oh yeah, Texans are taking quarterback of two. Hopefully they just get their guy. And it looks like it's going to be Stroud and they'll get Bryce Young. And I can see why they like Bryce Young. He could sell some tickets. I know they like Bama guys. like in the Texans building.

So it's like, okay, a lot of those connections made sense. Wow, poor Colts. Someone's going to move up to three and they're going to might not get their guy. They barely be calling Baltimore right now. It's just so funny in a month, how things breathe and now everything's coming away. And how they just, Colts are just by just sitting still kind of things have kind of calmed down around them where they might get one of those guys that maybe makes sense for them too, where they're at.

I understand like if Richardson or Levis is there, I feels like that they have some preference to Levis, but if one of those guys is there, that's a lot easier to swallow them, moving up a pick for him, you don't have to give up any day two collateral, anything of that sort. And it kind of, yeah, they are the biggest winners by doing nothing. Sometimes it's nice in life when you can just do nothing and, you know, you just ascend upwards. But I think that actually breaks down pretty nicely for them where they don't have to do anything outlandish and they can still get a guy they might like or they might be in the Texans boat where they're like, man, I think they're incentivized to take a guy.

They got to do it. So what Dan said real quick is that maybe it's hard to take a guy, especially at number two, if not everyone's on board. And at every position, especially the quarterback position in this class, there's little consensus about all the spots, especially quarterback. So if you have a lot of kind of, I want to say, infighting, but disagreement in the building is a really hard day one new head coach. We're going to take a guy that not everyone's sold on. So I understand that argument that maybe the guy that they all kind of do prefer, but maybe not at two, they move back. They move up from 12 yada, yada, yada, or move to next year, punt it to next year. Kind of understand that.

Let's go with Davis Mills. Let's run the Bobby Sloak. Let's run the Shanahan offense with the training wheels on. And let's just get through this year and see what we're at next year. So I understand, as I've sat and marinated on it, that argument or that discussion. And it kind of makes more sense than maybe it did a couple weeks ago to me. So let's say that Will Anderson goes at two day. And we're sitting there in Kansas City all next to each other doing our live draft show.

Do you envision that a different logo flashes on to the? the screen instead of the Cardinals if that does end up happening? I think it'd be a surprise if it didn't. I think we're all waiting to see which logo pops up. Could it be the Colts who are just saying, you know what? We've been patient, but let's just move up one spot and make sure we get our guy. And who would that be? I don't think it's a slam dunk at C.J. Stroud.

I know they like Will Levis quite a bit. I would not be surprised at all if Will Levis is the Colts guy. Now we've seen or I've heard the. the Tennessee Titans are a big player in this. The Tennessee Titans have made a lot of calls, teams picking in the top five, to lay the groundwork for a trade. Doesn't mean it's actually going to happen.

I mean, those calls are fairly common this time of year, you know, because, you know, you're doing your due diligence. You're, you know, even if the trade's not probable, it could be possible, and you're at least making those calls to see what it's going to cost. So, you know, the Titans are in this mix. You know, the Falcons had a late meeting. week with C.J. Stroud. Could they be enticed to maybe make a move for a guy like Stroud if he gets out of the top top two picks? So yeah, I think that's where the intrigue really starts. If the

Texans do take a non-quarterback at two, the Cardinals are going to trade out of there. It's just a matter of who's going to move up to that third spot. Could it be the Colts? Could it be the Raiders? Could it be a team like the Titans moving all the way from 11? The Colts, I don't see them moving up to two just because of the inner division. Like that just seems unlikely for a quarterback. Right. So I don't see that happening. But I think that's where the intrigue is.

We're all going to be waiting at the edge of our seat to see which logo pops up once the cardinals are on the clock. The Raiders are another good team to mention because I think at the start of this conversation like Nate alluded to, my thought was, okay. You know, they kind of stumble into this top 10 pick because they were unlucky last year. And this was a hodgepodge team that was pieced together in this very strange way that didn't make a lot of sense. But if you can stumble your way onto that rookie quarterback contract timeline, you can reset things a little bit for yourself. And then as it all started to unfold, like the way the chess board looked, it's like, oh, shit. It's just going to be Jimmy G. And this weird team and they're going to miss out on their guy.

But now they're another team that maybe one of these guys could fall into their lap in the top seven. And things could reset a little bit for them. We're going to have a lot of time over the next week or so to revisit some of this stuff. And then obviously the three of us are going to be together live in Kansas City. I'm going to start saying that a lot. on the show here over the next seven days. A reminder, please check. Please check in to the Athletic Football Show's YouTube page next Thursday,

7 p.m. Central. So we'll have plenty of time to discuss this, but I kind of wanted to revisit it a little bit before we let too much time go by. All right, let's do this. Let's get to the tight ends. So Dane is at a little bit of a disadvantage here in some of these conversations

because we know what Dane thinks. So you can kind of understand how you're going to attack his thoughts, which I know is your whole game plan here, Nate. So I wanted to ask you just, Just before we dig into the guys individually, the way that Dane has these guys stacked up, which is Michael Mayer from Notre Dame, number one, Dalton Kincaid from Utah number two, Luke Musgrave from Oregon State number three, Darnow, Washington from Georgia number four, Tucker Kraft from South Dakota, number five, and Sam Laporta from Iowa number six.

Those are kind of the consensus six that we wanted to talk about. How does your board compare it to Danes with those six guys? same guy at number one Michael mayor from Notre Dame I will talk about him but don't overthink it people just good player don't overthink it but number two uh this is kind of where I'm a little little bit of an outlier I'm actually kind of glad that uh Dane had this guy as a third guy and that's Luke Musgrave I have as tied in number two and that is a it's a projection for a guy that's not has been hurt his whole college career that doesn't have a ton of production doesn't have a lot of games played but we'll talk about

them, but I have him at number two, and I'll tell you why later. At three, I do have Dalton Kincaid, uh, like the player again. We'll talk about him in the sec. And then four and five is tough for me because I'm going to say darnel Washington, but I will say once we get to talking about Tucker Kraft, why that's going to be hard for me, because I am very bullish on Tucker Kraft. And six, I have Sam Laporta. And then after that, I know those, we're going to focus on that top six, but then after that there is one other guy that I have seven, uh, that I'm pretty high on as well. Is that loose goodmaker for Michigan? No, it's Josh Wiley from Cincinnati.

Interesting. Okay. But I do like Schoonmaker. I do like those two as well. So those two are my other ones that I do like as kind of consolation prizes if you're looking outside the top six. All right. Let's start with Michael Mayer from Notre Dame, who's the guy that you in your mind,

Nate, we just shouldn't overthink. Dane, he is your number one tight end in this class. He is a first round pick according to your big board. I want to say he's like, what, 18th, 19th on your board? 19th, I think, yeah. What about Michael Mayer makes him kind of a solidified first round talent in your mind, which is not always a given at this position. Yeah, I just, there are not many weaknesses with Michael Mayer.

And to borrow an innate term, he's very useful, very, very useful. Six, four and a half, 250 pounds. This guy, you want to line him up in line, he can do that. You want to detach him, he can do that. Work the seam, work the middle of the field. He can do that. Run the full tight end route tree, crossers, angles. He does that really well.

His favorites, the sail route. He thinks he's uncoverable with running the sale. So, look, this is a guy that the moment he showed up in South Bend, he was the guy. You think about the pipeline Notre Dame has had at that position. 14 Notre Dame tight ends have been drafted since 2001. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's an insane stat.

And in three years, or in 30 games, it only took 30 games for Michael Mayer to become the all-time leader at tight end and catches, receiving yards, touchdown catches. So this guy has put up the production. And he has been, and even when Notre Dame did not have a go-to receiver the last two years, everyone knows that the ball is going to number 87, and he's still making plays out there. So as a blocker, he's functional. I don't think he's overwhelming. I don't think he's a guy that's going to just overwhelm defenders at the point of attack.

But he gets the job done. And I was watching last night had the 2001 NFL draft on. in the background, just because I'm a sicko like that. Good Lord you are. I love you. Yes. But Todd Heap was drafted 31 overall that year. And I'm watching these Arizona state highlights from back in the day.

And you just brought up his name. And do you write his name down? No, I'm comparing a different guy to Todd. Okay. All right. And that is unbelievable. I was so excited for this. But I'm sorry.

I cannot believe you brought Todd Heap. You're in the Big Lease here, buddy. Dude, I was so ready to drop that name later. That was like when Deante dropped Khalil Mack and I was like, come on. But sorry, sorry, Dave. But oh my God, I cannot believe you just brought up Todd Heap. I was just so excited to bring him up. I'll be interested to see who you bring them up when you're talking about because I'm watching these heap highlights.

And I'm like, eh, this kind of looks like Michael Merritt. And so I look at the, his testing. And it's like size, almost identical. 40-yard dash, almost identical, vertical, almost identical, vertical, almost identical, bench pressed, almost identical. So, you know, I think there's a lot of, you know, and Todd Heap was a guy that I don't think we ever thought was a top three tight end in the league. And like Michael Mayer, I don't think you're drafting him thinking he's ever going to be a top three

tight end in the league. But he's a guy that, you know, has made a few Pro Bowls, really productive. You know what you're getting week in, week out with this player. And I think that's really the appeal with Michael Mayer. So that was going to be, Mike, one of my questions, Nate, is that he doesn't have kind of the eye-popping athleticism of guys that we've seen drafted in the first round. really over the last four, five, six years, the traits that kind of get you drafted in this range. So if his ceiling as a receiver is a little bit lower, what about his game as a receiver,

maybe some of the details of it? Do you think elevates him among some of the other guys we're talking about here, Michael Mayer? One thing first, first, he's just naturally strong, which shows up in blocking, and I'll talk about blocking a sec, but strong hands. And there's, he has contested catches, which you can talk about separation and stuff. but he does have that fantastic body control. And he has burst out of his routes. I wouldn't say he's explosive, but he does have that burst.

When he comes out of a route, he comes out of it. And I think that's a underrated thing, especially when we talk about bigger athletes, is how they work out of routes, how they're able to sink and come out of it and make those catches and everything. And be friendly to the quarterback. So he doesn't have that elite athleticism, doesn't have that elite length, just good athlete. He's got 32 inch arms, all that. But he just has that feel as a route. runner. He knows how to stay friendly. He knows how to work the zone. But he also is strong. So

like when he is matched up with a safety or anything like that, he just overwhelms them because he's so strong and fluid as an athlete. So that body control, that hand-eye coordination. So every ball that goes this way, he's going to make, he's going to give it the best chance possible to make the catch because he's so strong and has such good hand-eye coordination. Honestly, my high in comparison for him, like where I see like top tier, I totally agree where you're looking at this guy is he makes, he sneaks in a couple pro bowls, you know, maybe a handful, but really he's always just going to be a good, steady guy, an auxiliary target for you, like a better blocking T.J. Hawkinson. I think that is his high end kind of comparison where you don't mind

him being at the point of attack. I know we're talking about receiving, but I do want to say about the blocking. It's kind of funny that Meyer has kind of gotten underrated as an athlete and a receiver and kind of overrated as a blocker. And that's kind of how I feel about him. I think Dana agrees. As a blocking, he's naturally strong. It's just, it's technique stuff that he has to clean up. His hands. get too wide, he gets too high. But it, you know, it's kind of funny that people are like, he comes in, he's an inline blocker right away. It's like, ah, he needs some work.

And, but underrated as an athlete, he, Dane mentioned this, he gets split out. And they run receiver screens for him. Yeah. They have him as a wing. They have him in the slot. They have him ISOed up. You can ask this guy to do anything and he's going to be fine. He checks a lot of boxes.

He is useful, like Dane said. So just, I just think he's clean. I just don't, there's not a lot to really not to ding him on. Yes, he's not overwhelming. in any category, but he's good in a lot of things. You mentioned the receiver screen thing with mayor. They did that against Clemson. And the game against Clemson that I watched yesterday, the things that stood out to me

about him as a blocker is that the two best reps I saw of him, he didn't even use his hands at all. It was just pure power. So the technique stuff with Mayer does come up compared to just what he is physically as a blocker. So it's funny that you mentioned that. Dane, any other notes about Michael Mayer that you think are worth mentioning, considering when you're looking at him compared to some of the other tight ends in

this class. Yeah, no, I think I agree just to echo a lot of what Nate said. I mean, the first line of my report on mayor is a quote from a scout who called on, said he's built out of vibranium. I mean, that's that's the play strength that he has, you know, and the body control he plays with. There's not a lot of wasted movement with his rights. And that's a key thing with him is he might not be as athletically gifted as some of these other guys we're talking about or some of the top tight ends in the league. But everything is very controlled. All this movements.

He doesn't strain as a route runner. And so that's so key with him. And then even though he doesn't create a ton of separation, he is very good in contested situations. It does not matter the traffic. He's wearing a defensive back, like a backpack. He will make the catch. And so I think that, and that really echoes a lot of what Nate said.

Is there a fit with Michael Mayer that you have kept coming back to, Nate, as you've been looking at the first round that you like. I think these fans are exhausted to me saying it, but the Packers, but really, if he fell in this area and I actually think the team need and fit, it's the Chargers. I think that another auxiliary pass catcher, we talk about them needing a slot or a burner. Screw that. Get another guy that can play 40 snaps for you. And, you know, like we're saying, he's developing as a blocker.

He's two tiers better than anyone that the Chargers have blocking at the Titan position right now, but also just giving a nice target over the middle for for Herbert, Justin Herbert. So that was one I kind of liked. And it kind of fits for his value where I think he should go in the draft. I kind of like that fit. I was looking at. Sorry, two teams to keep on the radar there. I think the Cowboys, they've done a lot of work on him.

And I think he fits with what they like, a guy that can block, but a guy that's going to help the offense, move the sticks. And then the Bengals. Oh, yeah. mayor is from that area. He grew up thinking he was going to play Kentucky basketball. And, you know, there's a lot of connections there. Obviously, the tight end is a position the Bengals will address in the draft.

It's just a matter of where. Is it the first round, second round, third round? But I think if mayor makes it to 26, 28 that range, I don't think he's getting past both of those teams. You don't think the Bengals are going into season with Irv Smith as their tight end to play 30, 40 stats for him? They did just bring back Drew samples. so you never know. Oh, it was your sample too.

Yeah, that's right. That's all right. Oh, my God. Bangles getting him would be fantastic. That would be really good. I don't want to give it away because it's a number I was going to bring up during the draft show. And we talked about the Packers potentially drafting a tight end. But if you add up the career receiving yards of the players currently on the Packers roster,

it would have ranked 24th among tight ends in the NFL last year for one year in 2022. It's like 437. Wow. Sounds about right. Unbelievable. Poor Jordan love. So I think it goes without saying

the Packers would probably use a player at tight end and Michael Mayer might be that guy. You guys mentioning the Bengals with Mayor is funny because when I was thinking about skill sets and fits and guys I would like to see land in certain places, the one that I kept coming back to was Dalton Kincaid from Utah landing with Cincinnati.

And, Dan, he's the second tight end on your board. What about Dalton Kincaid do you feel like kind of separates him from the guys below mayor? I think you could make the case that Dalton Kincaid. I almost mentioned this on our wide receiver show, but I saved it for this show. You can make the case. He is the best pure pass catcher in this draft.

Everyone, wide receivers included, running backs included, everyone included, the best pure pass catcher. He has that type of ability where he can isolate the football, go up and make the catch. The catch radius is outstanding. His ball skills are unreal. After the catch, he's so good at transitioning from catcher to. runner. It's very seamless for him. And, you know, I just don't want the USC tape.

16 targets, 16 receptions. USC had, I know USC's defense. Terrible issue. But I still think- They also got cooked by Michael Mayer, didn't they? USC had a rough ear against tight ends. Yeah, I mean, just watch the A lot of highlights.

The cut, the, yeah, the Cotton Bowl and Tulane, Tyjie Sharp Spears, I don't do that all the time, running all over them. But something I look at with, receivers and tight ends. It's not an exact science, but I like comparing their career touchdown catches to drops. To me, that's a good ratio, just understanding, you know, what kind of player they are. And if they have more drops than touchdown catches in their career,

a little bit of a red flag for me. It's not like, oh, you know, they're not going to be a good player, but it's something I pay attention to. Dalton Kincaid in his career, a 35 to 4 touchdown catch to drop ratio. And that's as good as you're going to find for a tight end. So, elite in that area. Just a big fan of this player. Obviously, he's a lighter player. He's 245 pounds. He's only going to give you so much when you give him blocking responsibilities.

So, you know, it's a little bit of a, we get so much, there's so much talk about, you know, the debate about how these top tight ends rank. They're all different. You know, if you want a certain type of tight end, you're going to draft Michael Mayer. If you want more of the pass catcher, a guy that is essentially. essentially going to be a slot receiver for you, then, you know, Dalton Kincaid is going to be more of your flavor. So these are all ice cream flavors. It's just a matter of the type of flavor you want that day and the type that's going to fit your offense. So I think it's important to include that as we

talk about these tight ends. When I was thinking about Cincinnati, that's why I was thinking about Dalton Kincaid. Hayden Hurst played about 300 snaps outside in the slot last year. So if you're just looking for a tertiary receiving option, then that could take advantage of the one-on-one matchups that you're creating for him. It seems like among this group, Dalton Kincaid might be one of those best options. And what he can do is receiving that USC tape. I mean, that's a lot of Fady caught against USC on the right side line. It's just like, not a lot of tight ends doing that shit.

Like, that just doesn't happen very often. But, Nate, I know what you like and I know what you look for at the position. So I'm assuming that one of the reasons maybe you're a little bit more pessimistic about Dalton Kincaid is that at 2.45, he's not giving you the oomph that you're looking for in some aspects of playing tight end. 245 at the combine always listed below 240 in his career uh and no that's exactly it and it's not to ding the player i he's awesome like he his catching skills are fantastic it's just more of that classic grading scale where the y is going to have a little bump over the f only guy especially

for you buddy oh i'm sticking with it i it's like all right i'm not always right but at least i try to be consistent with this um but he is dynamic like dain said and i said this on a call with dame maybe a month or two ago. And I wasn't trying to say like it's one to one. But Kincaid can do this one thing that I love where he gets vertical after he catches the ball. So if he catches a stick route, he can drop step really quickly and get north. And I compared him to West Welker. I know totally different players, but West Welker is the best I've ever seen at doing that, where he catches a ball and he unlocks his hips and gets north. And KKK can do that at 240. And that is right there and there, that's pretty sweet. You can see a lot of his basketball background. Like he, this is a vague.

guy. He went to a high school 10 minutes down the road for me. And he was a really good basketball and you can see his, he truly rebounds the basketball or rebounds the football. Like, he goes over the middle. He has a catch against USC, I believe it was where he's catching a scene ball and he high points it and dunks over the guy. And it's like he does that consistently. High points the ball over and over and I just very natural. Yeah. It's yeah, it's he's just, he's an athlete. And what you talked about the touchdowns and drops. I thought you're going to bring it up. Like the one stat that I came across to entire draft cycle that I thought it was hilarious was Kincaid originally went to the university San Diego, not San Diego State, University of San Diego. He was a Toro. And his freshman year,

he had 24 catches, but he had 11 touchdowns. It's like, that's absurd. Yeah. It's like Mark McGuire in 1998, like 70 home runs and like 20 singles or whatever he had. Like it's just, that's exactly what it felt like. But even though I do think he's truly just an F-only tied end, I have kind of adapted my thinking or become softer on this line of thinking, not in a bad way, but just I've opened up my mind. I've expanded my mind on this. If we're looking at slot only receivers and everything, why a slot only tight end or a tight end that can line up in the slot, that's not a bad thing anymore. No. If this guy has the ability, this guy being Kincaid, has the ability to catch the ball and win against a DB, a slot or a safety.

If they line up a nickel, the defense does, then that's fine. Who gives a shit? if it's a receiver a tight end. It's a pass catcher. And honestly, it can do more. It can be a super power slot. Like I say, who cares if it's receiver? It's positionless football.

And so I've kind of opened up my line of thinking with that. And it's funny that Dan said these guys are different flavors of ice cream. How I describe Kincaid is I look at him as a good cherry on top for an offense. So like the Bengals would be a great one, especially if they're trying to transition from Tower Boyd, once his contract runs up, okay, Kincaid's our slot guy now. It doesn't matter for 12 or 11, whatever we want to be. So I just really, really do like his game as far as a pass catcher. Even as a blocker, yeah, he's limited because of size and length and all that, but he's smart and he tries hard.

And that matters. He goes to the right guy. There's a clip I saw of him. I really want to say it was against Oregon State. So I'm sorry, it was two months ago. I'm trying to recall off the top of my head. But Oregon State, the defense, it was near the goal line, ran like a late blitz, a late stunt. And he did not hesitate one iota.

Like just right away, just his. eyes were perfect because footwork had no fat on it. So, yeah, he's always going to be over, not always, but he's going to be overmatched most of the time if he has to block and lie. But Kincaid at least has the ability and the smarts to at least maximize what you ask him to do, which is very, very important when he transitions to the next level. I was talking to an offensive coordinator this week, just going through some of the offensive guys, and he preferred Kincaid to Michael Mayer.

And it's because he just thinks he has an elite trait. If you're going to draft a guy this high on the draft, if you're going to draft, I spent a first round pick on a tight end, does he have an elite trait? he thought that Dalton Kincaid's past catching was elite compared to some of these other guys and even guys we've seen come out over the last couple years. But when you have a guy that maybe is a little bit smaller, he's going to have to win with athleticism and pass catching Dane, are we a little bit worried that we have no testing numbers on him whatsoever as a result of a pretty significant injury history? And we have to mention him. There's a reason why we haven't gotten any testing from him. It's the injury factor.

you know, there's an extra letter on his draft tag up on the draft board. And that will factor into his evaluation. But talking to teams, it doesn't sound like it's something that's going to really drop him on draft day. Reading this text straight from a trainer with an NFL team, DK's injury, again, it was at the end of the season, in rehab process, would be a question for mini-camps, but not a long-term concern at this point. So I don't think it's something that is, going to drop him at all. I think, you know, we mentioned the chargers with Mayor. I, like,

I really like the fit with Kincaid with the chargers. I like that more. Just gives more juice. Give me, give me the juice. Give it to her. You got like a block. Still have a need. Him and Gerald Everett. Yeah. Let's just, yeah. Let's just do that. He, I mean, in a lot of ways, he's a better Everett, I think. You know, Everett can't find the end zone where Kincaid, he had at least eight touchdown catches. I think almost every year. Way better football player. Right. So, yeah, you know, this is a guy that upgrade your passing game in a big way. And so it won't be surprising if he ends up going in the top 20 because teams want to get more dynamic on offense. And he helps you do that.

Especially in a world where there aren't receivers available. Because like Nate said, if you just need other pass catching options, I keep going back to that Vikings trade for T.J. Hawkinson, when you're looking at the landscape and saying, what can we do to just be better on offense when we have a true number one receiver and we just need someone who could take advantage? of matchups, doesn't fucking matter what position he plays. Right. And do more offensive start going to that line of thinking. And does Dalton, Kincade fall into that bucket? Well, Kincade and then next year, Brock Bowers, like these guys that, yes, quote unquote,

tight end, F only tight end. But like I said again, like when we're getting to that positionless stuff and defenses are matching with nickel anyways, even if teams that have normal 12 personnel, quote unquote, two blocking tight ends and 12 teams are matching with nickel. So let's just get the best players out there. Who gives a shit? And I think that's, Kincaid has really kind of been a part of like a change in line of thinking I've had

what the chiefs had done with, of course with Kelsey. Kelsey is his own animal. But as far as just expanding how you can use offense, Evan Ingram, how the Jaguars used him. That expanded my kind of line. I think of like, okay,

coaches are a lot better at using these guys and understanding what they are. The one stat I came across, and this is why I did have some reservations is because of the weight. It's just even tight ends weighing 245 pounds or less. Only four of 30. 38 tight ends that weighed 245 pounds or less, had a season of 800 yards or more since 2002. And that's why it's like, yes, oh, get this receiving tight end. There isn't a lot of proof of this.

It's Jordan Reed, Dalton Schultz, Kellynne Winslow, and Owen Daniels. And Owen Daniels is actually my comparison for Donald Kincaid. So kind of funny in that sense. But it's a bit of an outlier. It's not like a true, true. Never had happened before. But you just have to keep that in mind. But I do think the NFL landscape is more conducive for Dalton Kincaid than it was maybe

five, 10 years ago. What I like about both of these guys is you don't have to talk yourself into what they are as receivers. Nope. Number one and number two, Michael Mayer and Dalton Kincaid and yards per route run among tight ends nationally last year with more than 20% of the snaps, according to PFF. And they were the best receivers on their own team. Even within their offense, I was watching the Florida game, and Dalton Kincaid's getting bracketed in the red zone. They're double-teaming him consistently. And that's the type of stuff you want to see when you really are going to rely on these guys to be receiving weapons.

All right. let's talk about our next guy here who through two games actually led FBS in yards per route run at 3.38. And that's Luke Musgrave, who was absolutely dominant over his first two games before getting hurt. Nate, you had him as your second tight end. What about Luke Musgrave to you even edged him ahead of somebody like Dalton Kincaid? He just moves different. It's when you watch him, he just, it's when you watch him, it's like, that's like a star. like that it's just it's just his movement ability really honestly that's when i watched those two games

um eats up ground on his routes like he's flew down the brakes good hands and ball skills in those two games yes it's you're extrapolating two games and trying to watch more and i try to find old film on him just to see as much as i can on the guy but you're seeing them get split out like an extra receiver running digger outs and beating corners easily and that that's cool again just like these past two guys we just talked about. It's not theory. It's something we actually have seen proof in the pudding of what he can do. They used him as an F, again, as an F tight end, but he has an upside as a true Y inline tight end. And I do think that he has a competitive toughness to him, an edge to him that I really do like. I think this guy is just a natural athlete with a competitive mindset. It's a guy, even though he's had

huge injury history, it's a guy that I would bet on that I think there's more to him as a blocker. I do have by the tight end coach for Oregon State, I played with that Wisconsin, which is really nice. His name is Brian Wozniak, great guy, great coach, not just because I know him. But he is, but I asked him. I was like, you guys used him as an F. Like it was a reason, like, you know, I thought he was actually okay when he tried to block. And he just said, he was an F to start his career and he was so good at that. That's who like most offenses, that's where a lot of our targets go. And so rather than in his last year, hey, you're the why now, you're not going to get as many targets and you have to be in line. We just trained the

why and kept him at F. But he goes, I think, and this is his personal opinion. I actually agree with it is that he thinks that he's going to be fine as a blocker. He just needs reps. And just like a lot of these guys do. It's going to be a kind of a consistent message about blocking here because it's really, really freaking hard. Who knew that? But I just like this guy's ball skills. I like his movement ability. I think he could truly run a full route tree. Like when I look at these guys Kincaid and then and then Busgrave as well, I think these guys truly can get isolated at the NFL level against corners, against nickels, against safeties, and dominate

them and actually beat him, bully them. But also why I have Musgrave a half tick above is because I think he has potential in line. And that's why I have him graded if I did probably exact same grade, but I'll give the bump to Musgrave because of that ability that I think that he has potential

as an in line tight end. But this guy just, Musgrave just moving and catching, it's just, there's something different with them. There, I just, that's what it is. It's just those two games. I'm like, geez, guy moves different. And the testing belies that, right? I mean, he had the best 10-yard split Musgrave did of any tight end of the combine. He ran a 4-6-1 in the 40s, 2503 pounds. I mean, this is somebody Dane and Luke Musgrave that just checks a ton of boxes. What is your concern with him if we have all these areas where we think they're strengths? And that speed shows on the film. Yeah. And it's, even at the Senior Bowl, he ran, they've been tracking, you know, miles per hour at the Senior Bowl the last five, six years. The fastest tightest, end they've ever clocked on the field at the senior bowl. So this is a guy that has the wheels.

And Nate, I'm with you. I mean, he's a top 30 player of my board. It would not be a surprise at all if he be, if he's the best tight end out of this class. And a big part of that is because of the combo ability. You know, his ability to block a lineup in line, but also be a true seam threat and someone that can help the offense. You know, I mentioned with Dalton Kincaid, that 35 to 4 touchdown to drop ratio, Luke Musgraves is two to nine. Not idea. Not what you want. Not what you want. Right.

And, you know, I thought Oregon State offense up until this year, this year that Oregon State offense actually did some really nice things. But in the past, not so much. And so he only played in two games, obviously, missed 11 games at that left knee. I was told he was cleared medically at Combine. So nothing long term you're worried about there. But still, you want a player with a, with the resume looking a little bit better than what he. I mean, his career stats at Oregon State in four years look more like a single season for a tight end.

And if the last name, it sounds a little familiar, you know, Bill Musgrave, his uncle, you know, is a longtime quarterback, long-time assistant coach. You know, so he's grown up around the game. This is a guy that has a really diverse background. He was a champion skier at 14. You know, his mom is big into skiing. A lot of the, you get a lot of those draft nuggets in the draft guide. but, you know, he has a really diverse athletic background.

And I think that shows with the way he runs routes. He gets in and out of his brakes. The hip flexibility, the way he can stem. I really, I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's me reading too much into it. But I really think that skiing background, that lacrosse background, you see it on the football field. I agree. The balance.

It's explosiveness, but also there's a lot of functional athleticism when you walk him. Like, it's actually useful. And talking about some of the production, he only played in two games, but 11 catches for 169 yards in those two games. So over a 10-game stretch, that's 845 yards. A number that I was actually looking up for another player that we're going to talk about, but it was worth mentioning here. Over that two-game stretch, he accounted for 36% of Oregon State's receiving yards as a tight-out.

Oh, yeah. Of those 11 catches, four were 25 plus yards. I was going to say he's averaging 15.5 yards a catch. Yeah. And this is a guy that as a junior had a blocked, punt return that for a touchdown. So, I mean, this guy just is a lot of ability that we just haven't even seen yet. Obviously, you only played two games last season, Dane, but he was at the Senior Bowl.

Beyond the explosives and the speed at the Senior Bowl, what did you think of his production and his performance with the on-field drills? Yeah, I think he did a nice job. Obviously, you know, the blocking stuff is a little hard to tell during Senior Bowl practices. But I think that if he can get his balance right, there are times where you're watching him as a blocker and he'll get maybe his upper half a little. to overextended and needs to sit back and, you know, that balance he shows as a route runner needs to translate more as a blocker, but he has the ability. He has the body type for it. He has

the temperament for it. So, you know, I think he did a really nice job at the senior bowl. And it only confirmed that we thought, you know, this is one of the better tight ends this year and a guy that is going to be off the board somewhere in the top, you know, 40 picks. You didn't do the edge rushers with us. So I didn't bring it up. We were talking about that. But one of my favorite draft nuggets in the draft guide in the beast this year was the BJ O'Jalari's grandfather was a prince in Africa, but he was an artist. That was his job. And that his daughter, who was BJ's mother, also dabbled in art and was coming to the U.S. to show some of her work.

So even though his dad, I believe, is also from the same place in Africa, they met in Philadelphia when she was showing her artwork. So if you want this kind of stuff, it is available for every single player, all 250 guys in the draft guide. With Luke Musgrave, yeah, his mom was on the U.S. development ski team in the 80s. And so, you know, they, her two kids, you know, they raised them to be skiers. And Luke Musgrave is winning, you know, winning titles at age 14 on race teams. And so, you know, you want to know as slalom scores? It's in the draft guy. What's all of the sports that Luke Musgrave played in high school?

Well, that's right. A four sport athlete. That's a, you know, if you, most football athletes, When you're a four-sport athlete in high school, you can guess, you know, probably basketball. Maybe if it's an offensive line, maybe wrestling's in there. Track, obviously. He was football at track. But he was in track, sprints, relays, throws, jumps.

He did everything. And his track numbers in high school were ridiculous. But then also lacrosse and skiing. So a little more diverse than your normal four-sport star in high school. And getting everything there, hand-eye coordination, like power with the show. shot put, all that, sprints. You're getting every. That's what he is.

He's just an athlete. I think NFL teams are going to have a clause in his contract about the skiing, though. I think that's, okay, here's your bonus and here's clause one B. Okay, you will not ski in the off season. We'll see how that goes for him because he's obviously pretty damn good at it. All right. Our next guy here is Darno Washington from Georgia. And obviously the first thing that jumps out about Darno Washington is that the frame is otherworldly.

I mean, this is a guy who measured at 6-6. and a half at the combine. Somehow it was six, seven and a half at his pro day, so good for him. I would love to be, I'll just grow an inch in a month. That sounds wonderful. Some watering in the spring, you know, he just keep, it's like a plant. At the combine was measured with 11 inch hands, which I think are the biggest, if any tight end ever measured at the combine.

And he has nearly a seven foot wingspan. The guy ran a 4-6-4 in the 40. And obviously, we're darned Washington playing at Georgia, had a ton of collegiate success in terms of team success on the field. Dan, what are we looking at with Darna Washington outside of just the, again, outlandish physical profile this guy brings to the position? Yeah, and the most impressive number he had at the compound was the 408 short shuttle. I mean, that's unreal.

For a guy that size to move with that type of short area quickness is unbelievable. You know, he is so unique. It's hard to find a great comp for him that you're really excited. excited about because he is so different than your normal tight ends. And he's a guy that when you watch him on film, loves to block. That's how Georgia used him. Now, part of that was because they did have, you know, Brock Bowers, who Nate mentioned, we'll be talking a lot about him next year in the 2024 draft.

He was the de facto number one target in that offense. Meanwhile, you know, all the two tight end sets they ran, Darno Washington's in the trenches blocking. He was a sixth offensive lineman for them. And it worked. And so you look at a team, I keep coming back to the Lions. And that would be a perfect fit for Darnell, Washington, a guy that, you know, they want to run the football, line them up in line, let him be a blocker.

Meanwhile, he's ascending as a pass catcher. You mentioned those 11-inch hands. He posts up. He's like a basketball forward. The way he can post up, win those crowded catch points. You see the focus, the hand-eye coordination, the play strength. So it's just he's a young player. still just 21 years old, still figuring things out.

But he is a guy that safeties are not excited to tackle. So you get him on some, you know, whether it could be a pivot route, could be a slink, whatever, just get him the ball with a little bit of runway. And man, he's off to the races. He could leapfrog you and he can run over you. So he is a very truly unique player at the position. You mentioned something in the draft guy that I thought was particularly informative about Darno Washington.

It's that because of the size, there are times. where his contact balance actually isn't very good and he can struggle after the catch. So there are some areas in his game game where it seems like you think Darnal Washington is held back a little bit by how big he actually is. Yeah, no, I think that's something that you saw quite a bit because, you know, with the start, stop, it's, you know, he, he's not always sure, okay, should I plow over this guy? Should I try to make a move? Like, he's sometimes a little indecisive about, you know, what he should do.

And I think that that's something obviously that with, you know, more. more experience and gets the football on his hands more. He'll be able to develop. It's just, you know, what do we foresee his ceiling in the NFL as a past catcher? You know, can he be a guy that catches, you know, 800 yards or can he have 800 yards in a season? Is he that, do we foresee that for him in his future? I'm not sure. I mean, he is, the special part of his game is just how versatile he is,

that's both a blocker and can just do everything you want, but he is young and still figuring things out. So, you know, he's truly unique with, and Mercedes-Lewis, I mean, Mercedes-Lewis wasn't this type of athlete, but in terms of the blocking and what he can give you as a pass-catcher, you know, it's just not a lot of natural comps that we've seen in recent years for a darnel Washington. A lot of people have talked about Darno-Washington as a potential sixth-offensive

linemen in some of these looks, Nate. And whenever I hear something like that about a tight end, my first thought is you just saying, I'll be the judge of that because you're just such a hard grader when it comes to what guys are as blockers. So he's been framed as this sort of just kind of transcendent blocking prospect as a tight end. Do you agree with that based on some of the other stuff that's come out in this process so far? He has the potential to be the six offense alive. I do.

It's funny. You can set me up really nicely for my notes here. Professional hosts. Yeah, I know, right? It's like you do this for a living. It's, I think he does, I mean, absolutely has that potential to be a true, true rogue greater. Like, like Mercedes-Lewis, how about Brandon Pedigrew as that's a maybe comparison? You mentioned the lines as well, former first round picks, eyes and all that.

But right now, as an inline blocker, I do think he is inconsistent. I think he has been the best, all of his highlights have true, have kind of been when he's on the move or blocking on the second level against a DB, which I do want to compliment and say that as a positive, that he is such a fluid act. athlete that he's good in space blocking. He doesn't trip over himself when he's trying to go for his safety and everything. But against edge players as the point of attack or even on backside cutoffs, kind of up and down. And like Dane says, though, he's young. And it's tight in blocking is so hard. You have to do so much out there and use different techniques and you're asked to do different things. But I just, I have disagreed with how people have just gone like, oh yeah, day one. He's going to just set the edge every time. It's like, he's going to get there. I do think he's going to

get there. He is the epitome of my overall tight-in philosophy because it's such a hard position to grade and project. I mean, it all is, but tight-in especially is just to drink the biggest, fastest athlete and hope it works out. Like, and he is the epitome of that. And Luke Musgrave is too as well. Like, uh, but I, I thought I would be a little more impressed with the blocking. But I do agree as far as a pass catcher, his size kind of naturally limits his route tree. This guy's not going to be running a Kelsey route tree or even Ertz or anything of like. that where he's breaking the guy off on third down and running, you know, inside out routes, you know, from the slot. But as a, he has good hands. He has good ball skills. Absolutely has

catching range. I can see him in the red zone being useful running down the seam. And they use him a couple times like that. But I always do think he'll be an auxiliary pass catcher as opposed to a primary or even secondary option. But having said that, he will do really well in that situation. The quarterbacks are going to love having Washington underneath and just pinning it on them. And just as Paul Chris would say, dent the keg. Just dent the keg, throw it as hard as you can as gut and hopefully he catches it. But I do think he'll be that gigantic underneath option who's best on the move. Crossers. Get him on the move. Nakeds, which is what he was best at in college as well. So I just, I do squint a bit where what's his third down roll when it's third and long. Are you having

him line up? Because, okay, what's the route tree that you can do? with him. But I do see some, a lot of usefulness with him, but naturally because of his blocking potential, his size. And there's probably some more past catching to him and upside to it. But I just do think it's going to be a work in progress. So if you think Darnell Washington has some of a limited defiance ceiling as a pass catcher, Nate, how does that affect where you would want to draft him if you were one of these teams? Originally, I was like, oh, man, big athlete. Look at this testing. And as I watched him, I do think he's more, I'd be more comfortable taking him early in the second than in the 20s. I know that's splitting hairs, especially in this draft class.

But I would be more comfortable getting in. He needs to be in a better situation than just a scheme-proof guy. So I think I'm more comfortable early in the second. But I understand the argument for him once you're getting back, you know, getting into the late 20s or something of that sort where all these guys I can see understand why you'd want to take him there. You mentioned Detroit, Dane. Detroit is picking at 18 and 48. So in your mind, where do you imagine them getting a guy like Darno, Washington, if they were to? Well, and that's in my seven-round mock that I came out with this week.

I had him falling the 48 in Detroit. And I don't know that he's going to fall that far just because he is so unique. But I agree with a lot of the concerns that Nate mentioned. And because of those concerns, I do think there is a chance that if he's still available in the 40s, I wouldn't be that surprising. Because as unique as this guy is, there's still, you mentioned that conversation with Jack Doyle. There's a learning curve for tight ends that is not easy. And for a player that's young like this, he's not a just.

just a plug and play and, you know, forget about the wide tight end position. It's going to take some time. And so for, he's not going to be a natural fit for every team. I, could he still go first round? Yeah, because he had the upside of what he could be if he puts it all together is really intriguing. But if he's still available in the 40s, I don't think it'd be that surprising. I totally agree with that. Another Las Vegas guy, by the way.

Yep. The two Las Vegas tight ends right here. And we had one last year, Daniel Bellinger, Belinger. There you go. Another Vegas guy. All right. Let's get to our next guy here who is a product of what is slowly becoming tight end university, South Dakota State and the Jackrabbits.

Tucker Kraft, Nate, you said that he was a guy that you particularly liked. What about his game really stuck out to you when you went and watched him? An easy mover for his size. This is the guy I was comparing to Todd Heap. And it was 255, but he moves like he's 230. And it looks like he still has like framed to grow on his bottom half, which is kind of interesting. I think he can get up to those low 260s numbers, but just an easy athlete who's still figuring out how to play football.

Upside as a wide, tight end, an inline guy, but also has enough athleticism to stretch the seam. South Dakota State used them mostly on Nakeds or play action, where he was the shot play guy, you know, running up the sideline or anything like that. But I think he's going to, we're talking about needs time. He needs time to keep developing his game. And I know Dane has some, like, his background about the size of his high school he went to.

much less other things. But what was interesting to me is at South Dakota State, they had another monster tight end, Zach Heinz, who was their Y tight end. But I would watch Tucker Kraft and go, this guy could be your Y too. And it was really nice for them.

They could go in like dot ace formation when they're on either side and legitimately run any run play because they had two guys that were Y tight ends and legit good at it. He was asked to line up in the backfield as a blocker and lead block, which I think is nice to see. Still, he is developing as a block.

He still has a lot of technique work he needs to. But the want to, the flashes, the natural strength that he has, that's why I project that I think he will figure it out. Also, when he came back from injury this past year, the back half of the year, that's where I really became optimistic about Tucker Kraft. When he came back from injury, those games, I was like, I get it. I think that's why I text you, Dan, was I got to finally watch those late season games. And I watched someone.

I was like, he's getting it. Like, it was starting to come on for him as a blocker. So I'm really bullish on him. I just think he can be a legit Y with seam stretching speed. He's a good pass catching threat. He's got long arms, just that natural good athlete with room to grow. So that's why I'm really bullish on him because I just, I think he's going to take a couple years, a year or two to really figure it out.

But I like the potential that you can tap into with this guy. Dan, I was looking at the weaknesses that you had for him in the draft guide. And a lot of it is just detail stuff, working on his timing and certain routes, working on footwork and certain things. So I think that your optimism like Nates is probably rooted in kind of the explosiveness and the physical gifts more than how he's playing the position at this stage. No doubt. I don't. I think people overthink this guy way too much.

Going back to last summer, I was hookline and sinker. I'm in my first top 50 board back in August, he was number 35. So this is this has been, if you asked me to name one of my seven or eight favorite players in this draft any position, Tucker Crafts on the list. He's a really good player who, you know, Nate, you mentioned the background stuff. He played nine-man football in South Dakota. He was a wildcat quarterback and running back. So this is a guy that, you know, hasn't been a receiver and tight end very long. And, you know, if you needed to know, how other people around the college football feel about him,

he was getting six-figure offers. Alabama went after him pretty hard this last offseason for an NIL deal to transfer over. and he decided to stay put with his guys. And, you know, I think if he stays healthy in that season opener, they beat Iowa. I 100% believe that. He got hurt the first series of the game and they ended losing by like a touchdown. But they still went on and had a great season at the FCS level. I think that, you know, Robert, you mentioned this at the top, tight end you.

This is an interesting stat. South Dakota State that has only produced two top 100 picks since 1976, and they're both tight. ends with Dallas, or Dallas Goddard and Steve Hayden back in 1999. Tucker Kraft's going to be the third. So they got something going on there with the tight ends are producing out of that program. I agree with everything you said. He's a good athlete. He just, you know, when you're running bubble screens for your tight end, it kind of tells you everything you need to know about the way he can move and the way he can, what he can do after the catch, the confidence that he plays with. So, yeah, I think this is a guy that is going to go somewhere in round two and end up looking like a

steal at that point. It seems like you want to have him higher than you do, Dane. So what is holding you back a tiny bit from kind of kicking Tucker Kraft a little bit higher in those rankings? Because it's the projection involved. It's a little bit of a faith-based projection playing at the FCS level, missing most of this past year with that ankle injury. You know, just can he develop? Absolutely. I think he will. He ended up, I think, 51 on my board. So, you know, right there in the middle of round two, I think that he's, you know, he's going to be a really nice piece. It's just, might take him a year or two before he really settles in. The middle of round two is pretty fucking high for a tight end, too.

Like, I think that we have to put it into context compared to this class. Yeah. He would be, he would have been tied in one last year. Yeah. Oh, yeah. A head of Colorado State. Head of Dulcic. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Head of Aten, all those guys. Yeah, I know. So it's, that's how loaded this class is that he's five. And it's not, I understand why he's five. Yeah, it's, it is projection.

I agree with Dane too. I know you didn't ask me, but I'm going to elongate the point. But it's, it's, yeah, I just, you're great into the flash with him. And, but it's also just the mindset and how he plays. Even just, I know this sounds corny, but turning down going to Alabama and going, I'm going to stay in South Dakota. I like that. Like, I like that.

It's like, hey, good thing going and all that. Not chasing grass is always greener. But yeah, you're agreeing to the body control that. athleticism and just that he can add branches to his route tree, even if he hasn't run those yet. It's just that you can easily picture what he can become. And I don't think it's that crazy of what he can become. And this is a little thing, but, you know, when I talk to all these players, I, you know, I just formulate opinions about their football character and just their answers to questions.

And I've talked to Tucker Kraft many, many times. And every time my BS meter did not go off once. I think this is a guy that's genuinely football only. I mean, he wants to be great. I comped him to maybe like a Foster Moreau type where, you know, he could do a lot of everything and just going to be a solid pro for a long time because of the skill set and the way, how badly he wants it. He's going to be great on special teams and starts career.

It's going to be awesome. Like that's where his role is going to be early on. So I joked about South Dakota State being tight end you. Iowa is getting to the point where it might be tight end you with all the guys that they produced over the last five or six years. And Sam Laporta is the next guy in line there, Dane. He tested fantastic at the combine. I mean, you look at some of these numbers around a 459 in the 40, 155, 10 yards split. His agility numbers were really good.

And his receiving production may not be eye-popping overall. He had 657 receiving yards last year. But that's before you realize that Iowa's starting quarterback through, for 1,725 yards last season. So Sam Leporta accounted for 32% of Iowa's total receiving production his last year in college. So how does Sam Leporta compare it to somebody maybe like Dalton Kincaid who is a little bit smaller? His receiving skills are what stand out about him. What's the gap between those two guys for you?

Yeah, and this is another guy where everyone knew that he was the number one target in the offense. And, you know, if you try to shut him down, make him go other places, but he's still able to be productive. You know, he does have, for a guy that's 200, between 245 and 250, he moves like a smaller player. He moves like a 225 guy. So that agility, that ability to get in out of his breaks, snap off his routes, and then win at the catch point is really big. And I think more so than his athleticism at the tight end position, his toughness is a big part. Because at tight end, toughness is non-negotiable. And talking to scouts about him, they will tell you that he,

is not quite on the level of like a T.J. Hawkinson or Noah fan, but he is more like George Kittle come out of Iowa in terms of the competitive toughness in terms of the way he's just built and the way he's, you know, just attacks the game. I mean, the whole reason he could have came out last year would have been a day two pick. He decided to go back because he wanted to be a captain. No other reason. He just wanted to be a captain. That's how much it meant to him. So, you know, he had one, if you're going to go on Twitter, do a Twitter search for Sam LaPorte in Kentucky. The last game, he had a Catch the screen.

Yeah, the catch and run. I mean, he broke, no joke, maybe seven tackles on that one play. This guy is determined. And the other part of that story is the fact that he had a knee injury. He had a knee scope late in the year and he missed a lot of games. And he decided to come back for the bowl game. He wanted one last game. So it's just, again, a guy that cares.

And that factors into the evaluation as much as what you see on the tape. No, that's it. I love that he brought up that he was injured and then decided to play in the bowl instead of opting out. And this is not some corny scout stuff either because the NFL's a grind. You play 17 games. You play 18 weeks. Playing hurt and coming in and competing every day, it's your job at the NFL level. That's why that stuff is so important.

That's why that's a huge box to check. And I think he's become everybody's second favorite tight end. Like that's what it's kind of, they're in this process. It's kind of pretty funny. But I do, he does so much well. Like nothing true is really exceptional, but just he's the ultimate useful guy. And I'll use that term again. And I go so much that Dane just said, like even just like the athletic, them to sink and run the routes.

Like you can see this guy in a Shanahan offense running stick nod and being good at it. Like, you know, and then he is, yes, he's going to have some limitations as a blocker, but you can line up in line. He'll get the job done. Like where he's just like, okay, he's not going to power guy, but he can do those handful of inline blocks that it's like, okay, we can get through those snaps because he's, can just get the job done. But create some yards after the catch. He fights as a blocker. Another guy that I think early in his crew will be an ace special teamer because his

athleticism, his toughness and his football knowledge. Yeah, I really, really like the guy. One of those, I agree with you, Dan. I had him as I think I had a third round grade on him last year. And I thought he was going to come out because I liked him so much. And as I watched him again this year. I'm like, yep, still like you. You're still fun.

You're still a good player. But I just really like him. Does a lot useful. Yeah. I echo a lot what you just said, All right, Dan, I'm the Chargers. You wanted to put Dalton Kincaid there at 21. Tell me why I shouldn't just wait till 54

and draft Sam LaPorter instead. I mean, I think obviously Kincaid gives you a little more juice. You know, I think Dalton Kincaid, if you were able to test, I think it would have been 4-5-3 to 4-5-6 range. I think he's a little bit better version. Obviously, it's why you're drafting him a full round ahead.

But I think that is why some teams will look at these tight ends in the first round and say, you know what, I'm going to get my corner here or I'm going to get my offense to tackle here. And I'll wait for Tucker Kraft. I'll wait for Sam Lipporto. I'll wait for Luke Schoonmaker. You know, it's a deep, tight end class. It's also, I'd say the same thing about running back.

And, you know, why some teams will be fine passing on a Bejan or Gibbs or whomever because the third round, you feel good about some of the running backs that are going to be there. So I, you know, I understand both lines of thinking. I think, you know, Dalton Kincaid is a guy that could come in and be a dynamic. player for you on offense, but I can also understand if you want to address offensive line or corner or wherever else and wait because you feel good about your tight end options later on. All right. Speaking of depth, I wanted you guys each to throw out somebody maybe outside of the first two rounds that you think can come in and pretty quickly be a contributor to a team. Dan, why don't you kick us off? I'll just mention two names that I think will end up going day two.

Luke Schoonmaker from Michigan, 65, 250. I think he is in a lot of ways just your prototypical tight end that can, he's a better blocker and I expected to be, and he moves better than I expected. Right. At that size, he ran 463. Oh, yeah. Was not expecting that. No.

6-8-1-3 cone at his pro-day, which is phenomenal. One of my big concerns with him is just, can he stay healthy? He shoulder injuries and then he couldn't finish his pro day because he suffered a minor leg injury, and so he couldn't finish. But so if he can stay on the field, I think Luke's. Luke Schoonmaker can be an NFL starter. And then the other guy wanted to mention Brenton Strange from Penn State. A little different.

I mean, he doesn't have a ton of production. 64, 253. A guy that can be a real catch and go threat. He has that ability in him. Can get the job done as a blocker. Just a guy that doesn't have a ton of refinement, but he has functional athleticism. He's maybe even more of an H-back prospect.

But a guy that can line up across the formation, you can do some different things. I think both those guys will end up somewhere in the third round and just they kind of add to the depth of this class. Nate, how about you? Guy outside the top two rounds that you think can come in and be an immediate contributor. Yes, Schooner is a good one. I feel like he's the ultimate consolation prize. If you're like, oh, I like this guy.

Well, all right, let's wait around and get a guy that's 90% as good as some of the guys we talked about earlier. So I agree with Dane there. But another guy I like is Josh Wiley from Cincinnati. A guy, Wiley came onto my radar when I was touting Desmond Ritter for months and months a month. So that's why I was, man, who's this long, lanky tight end, like running away from people? But really see him more as a fourth round, late third maybe, but a fluid mover, body control. He's long, good hands, but he has, he has good catching range where he has weirdly short arms. It's kind of, it's kind of weird. Like, he has, like, sub 32 inch arms, even though he's like 6,6,

which is always just a weird makeup when you look at a guy. But just I really like how, how fluid he is as an athlete. Like he can isolate, they isolated him. He's catching fade balls in the red zone. He's good on routes on the move, like overs and flats and and crossers where he's just running away from defenders. I don't think he's a good blocker. I won't even say at this point in time. I'd say he's average.

But he improved. Even from last year to this year, he improved greatly. So I just think he's adequate as far as playing strength. Again, he's long. He's barely 250. But I do think there's something there. just as far as an athlete, mindset, improving. You want to see these guys just improve year after year,

especially at this position. This is a guy I take a flyer on. I think he has upside to him and just an interesting type of athlete and enough football player to him that I like him. Dane, just to put a point on all of this, you've been doing this for how long, about a decade? Yeah, a decade and a half probably now, yeah. Where does this tight end class rank historically

compared to other ones that you've done in the past? Yeah, I mean, I feel comfortably, can comfortably say I think this is the deepest. I mean, I don't remember talking about four tight ends, maybe going in the first round like we are this year, right? I mean, this is a really unique class. And it's not just top heavy. It's, you know, second round, the guys we talked about getting excited.

The third round, the fourth round, I mean, it's a stark contrast from last year where I didn't love any of those tight ends last year as top 50 guys, top 60 guys. You know, maybe guys could come in and be contributors. but this year's class. And we didn't even talk about, you know, Zach Coons from Old Dominion, who blew up the combine, his testing,

and then also the positional stuff. I talked to scouts that were raving more about the positional stuff than they were about the testing. Davis Allen from Clemsons, one of the best contested catch tight ends in this year's draft. Cameron Lottu from Alabama was, you know, aside from Jemir Gibbs, he was, you know,

the safety valve for Bryce Young this year because they didn't have any receivers that could be reliable in Alabama. Payne Durham. a fun player. He's a lacrosse background. He'll run over you, not the fastest guy. That lack of speed is going to drop him into that fifth round range.

But teams are excited about what he could be. So, I mean, we could talk more and more about these tight ends on day three, potentially being something, not just filling out a depth chart, but potentially making an impact at some point during their rookie contract. So I think the combination of being top heavy, those guys at the top that we're excited about, then also the depth. I don't remember a tight end class quite like this. Well, guess what, buddy?

I got good news for you. We're doing a podcast after the day three picks go off the board. So we're going to get to talk about some of these guys. That will be in podcast form for you guys after day three of the draft. But luckily, after days one and two, the first three rounds of the draft, we are doing live on YouTube from Kansas City on our YouTube channel next week. So please, if you have not subscribed to the YouTube channel, this is the time to do it.

We're all going to be in person. We're going to be in a studio. We got bells and whistles and nonsense. It is going to be fun. It is going to be unlike anything we've tried in the past. So I highly encourage you guys to get subscribed and come check it out. We are really, really excited. One of my favorite events, times, things that we do all year.

So please get ready for that and get subscribed if you have not. All right. Now that we have talked about this year's class, a little addendum to this, I wanted to have a perspective about somebody who has gone through this in the NFL, somebody who's had to acclimate to the league and why it might be a little bit more difficult for some of these guys who are really excited about and this class that we're really excited about to be immediate contributors in the NFL. And I thought that Jack Doyle and just the type of player he was, a true two-way tight end in the NFL,

is somebody that could provide some really good perspective on that. So let's get to our conversation with Jack. All right, I am thrilled now to welcome someone who has a fantastic perspective on this long time Indianapolis Colts tight end and a man who has very much deserved his retirement and the lifestyle that comes with it. It is Jack Doyle. Jack, thank you very much for doing this. I really appreciate the time. Yeah, thanks for having me on. So we were talking a little bit before the show started about why I wanted you to come on

and do this. And I think that this tight end class is unique in that there's going to be so many guys that get drafted high in the first or second round. And when teams see that, when fans see that, They're going to have certain expectations about what sort of contributor that player is going to be. They want that guy to be a missing piece to their offense, somebody that's going to kind of take them to the next step and over the top. And if you look at the recent history of the position, that's just not always how it goes. Since 2011, there have been 27 tight ends drafted in the first two rounds. 20 of those guys had fewer than 400 receiving yards as a rookie. And if you look at some of the development curve studies that have been done by PFF and others,

tight ends have a smaller percentage of their production before age 25 than almost any other position in the league. And I wanted to talk to you specifically about why that development curve exists and why there's a little bit of a barrier to tight ends being able to contribute right away to their offenses because of some of the demands on that position. So on a general level, just asking that question, what would kind of your first hypothesis be about why it takes a little bit longer for tight ends to hit their strong? ride in the NFL. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, just hearing those, I've never heard those stats that you're kind of reading off there. But it makes a lot of sense looking back on it all. It's just, it just, there's so much that goes into the tight end position as far as,

you know, to get on the field on a consistent basis, right? You know, you have to know the run game. You have to know the blocking and the schemes that are all with that. You have to know the past game and the route's concept. and the routes of everyone else around you to know the timing. And then you have to know pass protection too. There's going to be times when you have to pass protect. And that could get, you know, not even called into the play.

And the quarterback's checking to it. So, you know, you try to protect young guys and not have them in there. But then the defense shows something that, you know, requires a, you know, a max protection. And then the tight end's pass blocking. So coaches are maybe sometimes hesitant to get a young guy in there that does to know exactly what he's doing when you you know we all know the quarterback's the most important position um so yeah i think you know when it comes to young guys getting in and you hear about you know

you're reading like the stats are kind of low at the beginning i think that has a lot to do with it because you know you try to draw up in my experience it's been you know you try to draw up you know 15 plays for the guy to work that week and you know maybe they just don't get the ball or you know or maybe like i said the defense gives you a different look and then you're running a different play. So it just comes down to, you know, you know, being trusted by the coaches, trusted by the quarterback, and that just takes time to develop. And again, just the different things that are tied in is asked to do on a play-by-play aspect, I think just takes a little time of having a little bit of a learning curve. And I think some of that is because of the gap that exists between

college offenses and NFL offenses these days. Maybe there aren't as many tight ends that are true two-way players where they're in line-wise, they're blocking a lot. But your experience in college, I think, was a little bit different than that, right? You played for Willie Taggart at Western Kentucky. He came from Stanford where they ran a more traditional pro-style offense. And you got on the field. I think you started four games, played like 200 snaps as an undrafted rookie. Do you feel like your experience in college kind of gave you a little bit of a leg up

compared to some of the other guys coming into the league for more untraditional schemes? Yeah, for sure. I was very thankful for Coach Taggart and the systems we ran because it really did develop me in going into a pro style office. It's specifically going into, you know, when I went to Indy, it was under, Pep Hamilton was the office coordinator. So we were running that West Coast style all from that same tree. So I knew a lot of the plays coming in. So that adjusted my learning curve right there and was able to get some, you know, playing. any time there early on.

And again, it comes back to being trusted to do everything, right? Because you never know what's going to happen and what the defense is going to show. And then the quarterback's going to have to adjust on that play. And you have to be trusted to do your job. And again, I think that comes from the learning curve from a lot of colleges. It's, you know, it's the fast pace, get as many plays in as you can. you know, snapping the ball,

you know, a hundred times a game. And, and, again, that makes defenses not do a lot. So, you know,

maybe they're, you know, you see more of the one-trick ponies that you're kind of talking about. And again, that's, and that's okay. That works.

And those guys just, you've got to be patient with those guys, I think, and getting them to come around. I didn't even make that Pep Hamilton connection. So he was actually,

I think, on staff with Willie Tagger, probably at Stanford, right? Yeah. Were they there at the same time? That's wild. Yeah, they were there at the same time.

Yeah, we always called ourselves at Western Kentucky. You know, we were the JV Stanford team, but we always jv. Stanford team, but we always joc about, you know, we were running the same schemes and we'd watch a lot of their film. And so that was always kind of a running joke. Oh, that's so interesting. You make those little connection points because obviously Andrew knows that offense. And did you guys kind of have like knowing moments between the two of you where maybe

you had a little bit of a head start within that system compared to some of the other guys, even in that Colts huddle over those first couple years? Yeah, you know, it just, it was, it was easy to, not easy. I mean, it's never easy to pick up an NFL offense and the different, you know, especially when you're working with a guy like Andrew who's so bright and, and everything's on the table, right? Every play, everything's on the table to switch to whatever we need to have a chance at a successful play.

But yeah, you know, and then having Kobe Fleener to, you know, coming from that. That's right. coming from that the Stanford. Yeah, so we had a lot of those guys under that same system. So it was fun and beneficial to me specifically, just being able to like, you know, formations were the same, right? So you didn't have to learn formations. So I knew where to line up.

So now I can focus more on, you know, what the defense is dictating my job to do. And again, just help that learning curve. So obviously you have a head start. But on a general level, you listed so many things. You have to be worried about what you're doing in the run game as a blocker. You have to be worried about what the route tree looks like. You have to know the structure of everything, almost more than any other player on the offense, probably than the quarterback.

So what do you think early on in their careers? Most guys have the hardest time acclimating to among all of those different categories. Yeah. And from what I've seen is definitely the run blocking. and the past protection, understand those schemes, and just the timing of things, right? Like, you know, there's,

I listed all three things. There's little things in each concept. We love little things on this podcast, so we're more than happy to dig into the little things. Yeah, so yeah, like, run game, just, you know, run game, it's usually a whole new world. If you know, you're running,

guys come from, you know, the zone read, which is showing some life in the NFL more recently with the more mobile quarterbacks. And just in working with NFL offensive tackles and the concept of, you know, the mic point changing quickly right before the snap of the ball and then you're blocking someone else. Right. So just getting those concepts and then pass protection is usually completely foreign to guys coming in as a rookie.

And it's really hard to pass block a NFL. defensive end, who's probably the most athletic person on the field. And then as far as past game, you know, you'll get the guys that are really fast and did a lot of great things in college, but they almost run too fast sometimes in concepts, right? Like it's learning the timing of what the quarterback wants and what you're going to do at the top of your route. Is it, are we speed cutting out of this? Do you need to give them a little indicator coming out of this and learning what that quarterback wants to see, it just takes time and it takes practice and you only get so much time

in practice. So, yeah, just making the most of each of those opportunities. So as a run blocker, would you say that it's more of a mental gap or a physical gap, kind of the biggest barrier to guys contributing there? I think it depends on the guy, right? Okay. And I think the most important thing when it comes to run blocking is what I've always said is, does the guy want to or not. If he wants to, he can be a good blocker.

If he doesn't want to, he's never going to be anything as a blocker. It's literally, does that guy have the mental capacity to want to block, right? Is that naturally in him? And then you can develop a guy because you can teach techniques. And especially when a guy's already a good, let's say this guy's already a really good, fast, strong guy, you can develop him into a blocker as long as he wants to. As long as he wants to, we say, you know, stick your face in there and block. And then you can teach them the concepts, and those will all come.

But the first step to being a good run blocker as a tight end is you've got to want to. And then the rest can come. That's really interesting because we talk about that on this show a decent amount. Just like, does he actually want to do it? Like when you're watching these guys in college who are maybe 245 or are lining up in the slot on half their plays, when they get a chance to do it, is there actually interest? So to hear you say that makes me feel a little better about how I see it. So it's a nice little comforting moment there.

Yeah. For you specifically, you know, that's on a general level. What was your kind of biggest hang up early on, even if you were somebody who could get on the field pretty quickly? Yeah. I don't know. There was a lot, like I kind of mentioned earlier, there's little things in everything.

You know, pass protection was tough. Like, you know, I never, that was one thing I was not asked to do in college and then trying to learn how to pass protects. and usually you've got help as a as a tied-in. Either the running back's coming to you or, you know, the tackles coming to you late. You know, it's not good offense to leave us one-on-one with a defensive end and pass protection, right?

So, you know, that was a big hurdle for me, just learning the techniques of that. And really it's just, you know, fight to survive until the quarterback can get the ball out, right? And then I really did have a good grasp of run game stuff, coming in and that's what got me on the field. But then it was learning the differences in past game as far as route running of what the quarterback wants, right?

Again, we kind of talked about it earlier, but like, you know, a lot of quarterbacks are big on what do you do at the top of the route? Or do they like you to go straight to 10 yards and that's where you're making your cut? Or do they want you to go off your fourth inside step and that's when you're making your cut? You know, all quarterbacks kind of have their own little, their own little, you know, call them indicators of how they want the timing to be. So just learning those, and that comes with practice, right?

So I think quarterback's got to trust you, right? You're not going to get the ball. So it's building that trust with the quarterback. I wanted to also ask you just about where athleticism fits into development at the position because, I don't know, I'm being generous here. What was your 40 time coming into the NFL? Yeah, I think I ran a 4-9. So, you know, it's not the best one that anyone's ever.

run. No, but you, but you, I was pumped to break, slide flat, you know. And you had a very successful career. You made multiple Pro Bowls. You played in the league for a long time. You know, and there's a guy like Michael Mayer coming into the league who, he runs a 4-7. You know, he's not slow, but he's not one of these eye-popping athletes that we've seen go in the first round over the last 10 years or so.

And you talking about the receiving game and what you need to worry about, there's a lot of nuance to that. You know, that isn't about eye-popping athleticism. How do you think athleticism fits into the development of people at this position, whether it's overrated, underrated, and kind of how it can help you? Yeah, it can definitely help you, right? I think athleticism is huge, and it plays a big part more so in the red zone. When things really get tightened down and you really need a guy to go up and make plays for you, you know, make catches with guys hanging on their back, you know, that's what it is in the first. red zone. And that's where I think coaches and scouts get so excited about seeing a guy with

that athleticism. And that's where I see that becoming a, I don't know what the correct term is for, but, you know, a game changer for a guy is when they can see you scoring touchdowns because that's the point in the game is to score touchdowns, right? You know, and then you mentioned a guy like the kid at Notre Dame, Michael Mayer. I've watched a little bit of him just seeing college football this fall. And you just tell how much he's trusted by the quarterbacks, right, and who he plays with. And the timing, he understands what the quarterback's problems are.

I think that's a big part of being a tight-in. You know, usually tight-ins of quarterbacks are pretty close personality-wise and become close as teammates. And you've got to understand what his problems are and how you can help him out. But speaking to athleticism, you know, I think that's something that really pops up in the red zone. Like it's coaches and scouts really excited that they can, hey, I can get this guy a couple of techniques. And man, let's throw him in there when we get inside the 25.

He's got 10 red zone plays each Sunday. And, you know, let's see if we can get six touchdowns out of this kid as a rookie. You know, that's where I kind of see it. Solving quarterback's problems is such an interesting way. present that can you give me like an example of what a quarterback problem is that a tight end can help solve yeah i don't i don't know a lot of problems you know i remember um you know it'd be you can hear them easily i that's you know that's the nice part is you're usually pretty close to them um so i can think of examples of like um Andrew seeing the seeing the coverage right and you know

and he knows, obviously he knows the play, and he'll be like, I need you, Jack. Down, say, go. Like, and that's all you hear, right? And he's like, because then I know, okay, he needs me on this play. Like, I'm getting the ball. So, but maybe I'll go a little bit quicker or, you know, if you know pressure's coming and you can turn around because you know he has to throw the ball. And that just comes with playing the game, right? And that's the hard thing with football is to get better at it, to truly get better at it, you have

to play it, right? And you have to play at full speed. And it's getting that, you know, that balance of being injured, you know, protecting from injury, but also improving with reps. But yeah, the quarterbacks in the tight end, so they always seem to gravitate towards each other. And, and I think it's because they both got to know a lot about the offense and know all three, you know, kind of, kind of concepts of run game, pass protection, and the past game. You always kind of see that. I think when these guys get drafted high, in the first couple of rounds, they're going to be people who have visions of Travis Kelsey and George Kittle and

Gronk and those guys who were the number one receivers on their team. But I think in reality, it's probably going to be a situation where they're complementary pieces, which are necessary in the modern passing game. And I think I look at two specific situations. One, what has happened in the last two years in Cincinnati, where you have all of this attention paid to the receivers, and it leaves a lot of one-on-one matchups for a guy like CJ Uzama, a guy like Haydenhurst, both of whom got paid because of that role.

You look at what C.J. Hawkinson has done in Minnesota and how he really had developed into their secondary receiver because they needed one with how much attention was being paid to Justin Jefferson. And both by structure and alignment, a lot of really smart coaches are creating one-on-one matchups for those types of players against linebackers in high-leverage situations. So when you're looking at those matches, matchups, how do you go about exploiting them? Like, when you're attacking a linebacker one-on-one,

what does that process look like pre-snap for you in your mind? Yeah, I mean, that was my life there for the, I think it was the 2016 season, TY, led the NFL in receiving yards, TY Hilton. And it was, you saw the safety, you know, if TY was on your side, you saw the safety go over top him. So you knew he was getting double. and I was getting a linebacker, right?

And you would know, the first thing when attacking a linebacker is you've got to know which linebacker you're attacking, right? What type of player is he? Is this a guy they've, you know, was drafted on their team to cover? Or is this a guy that's going to try and, you know, try and budge you up within the five yards, right? So knowing what you're attacking, right? And usually, you know, the speed guys can be overly aggressive. so maybe you give them a little extra at the top.

And, you know, the thicker downhill linebackers that you might get in coverage, okay, let me get a clean release. And then I got this guy, right? So it's knowing your personnel and knowing who you're going against. But, yeah, as a tight end, you love linebackers. You want linebackers on you, right? That gets you excited and hope that you have a good route called for those plays. the last thing I want to ask you

talk about your development plan guys you played with that were younger and some of the things that they've run into I don't want you to put anybody in a bad spot but can you think of younger tight ends that you play with during your time in Indianapolis that you think their experience is kind of particularly illuminating to what we're talking about here

yeah I mean the only guy I mean really through my time the only guy that was drafted while I was with the Colts was Kyle and Granson and that was what he's going into this will be his third season coming up this fall yep and so yeah i love kylan's the best he's he's such a great guy super sharp super smart um and you know he's he's he's one of

those the things i noticed with kylan it kylan's not first off he's a guy who will who'll put his face in there he's not the biggest guy but he's not scared of block so he earned my respect from day one as far as that goes um and and and i love that he and he he he he he he gets the concept of things. But the thing I noticed with Kylan coming out is he would almost, he's such a fast kid, right? Straight line fast. And it was kind of what we spoke about earlier.

What I noticed with him and what I tried to tell him is like, slow down, right? Like you've got to slow down to let other things happen. And, you know, maybe understand the problems, right? We've mentioned that a few times in this conversation. But, okay, is my wide receiver that's supposed to be running a clear out post for my, you know, corner route.

Is he getting pressed out there? Is it going to take him a minute? Oh, maybe I should, you know, maybe I should stem this in a little bit. And maybe I'm not running 100% to 10 yards to break out. I'm running 85%, right? So that the timing and the spacing looks clean to the quarterback. So it's just little things like that that I think that a young tight in can learn and really, you know, it can accelerate.

accelerate, you know, them earning the trust of the quarterback they're playing with. I think goes, goes a super long way. And just kind of bring it all full circle. I mean, I think that's just another example of how it's another layer of difficulty associated with this. The fact that your role on that play, it only exists in connection to the receiver's role. Like, you're always connected to something else. You're always playing off someone else that's reactionary. And there's so many different elements that you're trying to juggle at the same time.

And I think on a general level, that's why it takes a little bit for some of these guys and why we might see. That's a lot going in when, you know, you see the coverage and then it's down set go. And then you got to process all that and then play fast and then playing the NFL against NFL defenders. Like it's a lot, you know, there's a lot going on. But, man, that's what makes it the best. I'm getting fired up just sitting here talking about different stuff. I really appreciate the perspective because you are in such a unique position to be able to to give it. And I hope people keep this conversation in mind when they're thinking about this

2023 group, how highly they get drafted and kind of what's some reasonable expectations of these guys are early in their career. Be patient with your guys. Yeah, be patient with your guys. Jack, thank you very, very much for the time, my friend. I know you don't have to do stuff like this anymore. So the fact that you would choose to do, it means a lot to us here. Yeah, thanks, guys. Appreciate you guys. Appreciate you guys. That's all we got. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to Dane. for their time. Like I mentioned, we're going to have our live draft show

from KC next week on our YouTube channel. Please subscribe to that. We are absolutely thrilled to be bringing that your way. Very excited about it. For now, that is all we've got. Enjoy your weekend.

We'll be back next week. This was the Athletic Football Show.