The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The 2024 coaching cycle: The new parameters and the allure of the mystery box, with Dianna Russini

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

The dust of the 2024 coaching cycle has settled. How did Washington pivot so quickly from Ben Johnson to Dan Quinn? What conclusions can we draw about what teams in the market prioritized? Which coordinator hires are the most interesting? Robert Mays and Dianna Russini dig into those questions, and more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Dianna on Twitter: @DMRussiniSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me tonight. It's the senior NFL insider at the athletic. Diane, how are you? Joining you live in person from Sin City. We are doing this in person for the first time since we started doing this, right?

I think this is the first time I've seen you since Jets training camp. I think that is... No, I show you at another athletic event. Oh, that's right. That's right. We had like a meeting in October. Correct. It was very brief.

Yes. I have not had a conversation like this in person, really since you started the job, which is very exciting. I think there's no better place than Las Vegas to have. How are you feeling about this week? Absolutely horrified, concerned, worried. I had seen your tweet earlier in the day where you made that comparison of attacking Vegas in your 20s versus the Vegas experience at our age. Excuse me, your age. You're a lot younger than me.

Because of how I attacked Vegas in my 20s, we're the same age. Correct. Yeah. I actually believe you on that. I just think eight days is a long time. I'm excited for the football side of this. But the feeling you get when you step off that plane and you walk into the casino, there is nothing like it. I have more energy than I ever have.

But I'm smart enough, old enough, experienced enough to know when I see that airport again, when I'm leaving to go home, I'm going to physically look and feel like a different woman because of what I'm about to go through. over the next few days. And look, I'm one of these easily tempted people. I already played slots. Like, I've been here an hour. So I'm going to be broke as well.

So I look forward to see how I'm going to be able to navigate the path by having to be a professional and do my job, cover football, but also try to resist all the fun parties and people and all the things that I actually really love to do. You've got to pace yourself. I mean, I think that's the biggest thing. You got to pace yourself especially early. I came here a lot when I was younger.

because I lived in LA. And so every single group of my friends from college high school, different groups of high school friends, every single one when they were like, yeah, we're going to Vegas. I'll like, I'll come. It's free. It's a four and a half hour drive. I'll meet you there. And I would lose way too much money every single time.

But that was every single time I'd roll in and drive in. That drive in was always very energizing, very cool. It's a very nice moment. And I thought, all right, I'm 15 years older now. I'm sober now. Like a lot of other things have changed. Still the same feeling. Like driving down Las Vegas Boulevard by the Las Vegas sign.

It's like, all right, I'm excited to be here. This is going to be a very fun week. How I feel on Sunday a week from now may be a little bit different, but at least in this moment, I'm really looking forward to what the week has in store for us. Yeah, I wish you could bottle up this type of energy and just bring it back to our homes. So we could just get through the day-to-day boring, but not maybe, you know, that part of our lives. But here we are, I think we're going to figure it out. So the good thing is, when I was taking off, when I was in the year when I landed, there was just news, constant. It's been nonstop, and that's why we wanted to do this today, because there's going to be a lot of time to talk about the game.

But we've got to kind of sweep up eight to ten different hirings and little tiny bits of the news cycle that have happened over the last two or three days. I mean, you've been doing this constantly. You were at the Senior Bowl last week talking to everybody. So there's a lot of stuff to chew on before we get deep into the Super Bowl-specific talk. Yeah, I didn't really have a lot of discussions about the championship weekend, about the Super Bowl, when I was having those conversations with the different scouts. and GMs and head coaches that were all around and agents as well. The buzz has been all about the coaching cycle here. The hirings, the firings still even of has something changed,

has something shifted in the NFL or has this happened before and we just forgot that this new identity that the league has may actually just be a repeat of what we've seen in the past. It's just been a while since we've seen it like this. But that being said, there are a lot more questions being asked right now than I think people would even believe from decision makers, wondering, watching other teams make these hires and move on from other coaches and make these changes. And there's just a lot of, I think, concern over, all right, well, where are we headed here? How are we going to start changing the way we're calling these games and even installing these types of. cultures. Let's start there then, because now we have all the seats filled and we can take a step

back and look at what this cycle was as is complete. What are your bigger picture takeaways after having those conversations that you just did over the last leak? What are the two or three things that kept coming up when you were talking about what this cycle means for the league? I almost feel like the icebreaker for every conversation I had was, can you believe Belichick doesn't have a job? That seemed to be a bit of an obsession lately. And collecting a lot, and collecting a lot of different opinions. I think it's a lot of self-preservation where it's like if that guy didn't get a job, like what happens if things go south for me.

You make such a great point because I had that conversation with people of comparing, putting yourself in his shoes, but also recognizing, wow, it does not matter how many Super Bowl rings you have. It does not matter if your nickname is the goat. You may be unemployed. And it just goes to show you why so many of these coaches, work at the level and the pace that they do knowing that in a second it could be gone. So that being said, you take a look around at all the different coaches that were hired and the

hot names will even say. And it just seemed initially it was at once again the search for the next Sean McVeck. You hear that all the time. That always seems to be the theme that a lot of owners are looking for. And then you have the play callers that are going to be able to get the most out of the quarterback with whatever team that is. Obviously, I immediately think Carolina when I think we need to get the best play caller here that can get the most out of our quarterback knowing that we got to make this work. What did people think of the Canalus movement that you talked to about? Peculiar.

Yeah? Yeah. It's fast. But I can understand it being fast because we're out of those guys. That pool is so thin now for play callers that have not gotten bumped up into the next job. I mean, Brian Cowan doesn't call plays. And he was one of the guys that got a job in this cycle. And I'm not surprised.

I think that makes total sense. I thought he'd get one based on how he interviewed over the last couple of years. But even if it makes sense for Carolina based on where they are and what they needed and head coach, the fact that these guys are calling offensive plays for one year and now they become the next hot thing just because that's what teams are chasing, it just feels like at a certain point we're going to hit critical mass. At a certain point, we're going to run out of guys that deserve to get those jobs. I'm not saying Dave Knells doesn't.

But it feels like we're going to get to a point where the pool gets. it's too shallow. Normally, we know a lot about these new head coaches because they've spent a lot of years in the league or they had two or three outstanding seasons that made, that just, it appeared to just be automatic. Of course they're going to be a head coach. You use the example of Rahim Morris. Look how long it took him to get a head coaching job. That's more the norm. What we're seeing now is very unique. And so when you talk about Brian Kavanaugh, Callahan and we've heard about Brian Callahan for a while. He's not new to the space at all.

No. You know, and he's had opportunities outside of Cincinnati before an interest from other teams. But with that in mind, Dave Canales didn't interview anywhere else, right? He just obviously had his coaching position in Tampa and met with Carolina. And that seemed to get a lot of momentum. And they spoke to a lot of potential candidates or at least candidates there. And the fact that he was able to beat out who he did tells you that he's saying something.

That ownership there, David Tepper, who from all the conversations I've had was very open-minded, headed into this and really was listening to others. It was really trying to be in the background of this process, but obviously overseeing it all. but you go from a first year play caller and gets a head coaching job to a culture setter, like a Dan Quinn with Washington, who, you know, he's obviously defensive-minded, but I see him more as all of it, a whole. Do you feel like that archetype of candidate was more popular in this cycle because of what's happened in Detroit? Like when you were talking to people, how often did Dan Campbell come up as like a model for what other franchises might be chasing?

Constantly. That seems to be the direction. But then you say that, and it doesn't make a lot of sense that Anthony Weephyr didn't get a head coaching job, that Mike Vrable doesn't have a head coaching job. Obviously, we discussed Bill Belichick already, but, you know, Jim Harbaugh, that makes sense.

That one's the easy one to explain. We understand that he's a proven winner. He's been there, and the best quarterback of all the teams that needed a head coach is there in Los Angeles. But the thought here is we need someone like a Dan Campbell to set the tone to give our team a clear identity. And I think that is why Rahim Morris is getting his shot now. It's why Dan Quinn is getting another opportunity.

After what I think some people had concerns that the performance in the playoffs took, you know, hurt his stock. Yeah. But it obviously didn't. And the way the chips fell in Washington, which I don't truly. believe Dan was the number one target. Let's talk about this because this is the number one thing I wanted to ask you about. Watching how it unfolded immediately after the news broke and just how quickly both sides were trying to get their story out there to get ahead of it and to make sure that they

were the one that was in control of the messaging, what is your read on what actually happened with Ben Johnson and Washington? I think there's a little bit of everything based on my conversations. I think Ben Johnson truly is the opposite. of what we see in a lot of coordinators now, which is he's not in a rush to jump into the next big role. And by the way, I've met coaches around the league that have zero goals of becoming a head coach.

And I'm not saying that that's Ben Johnson. He does want to be a head coach. That has been made clear. But he wants it to be the right opportunity. And I think he wants to feel that he has the structure for it to set up for him to be successful. What was lacking in Washington in your mind? Based on what you've heard through the grapevine.

What were the elements that he might have been a little bit worried about? I don't believe that he was connecting with the people that were involved in that search. I don't think he agreed with the vision they had and how he sees it. I do think money is always going to be a factor in these. I don't think it was the driver, though. It feels to me, and this is just from outside looking in reading the tea leaves. he's at a place now where he is so comfortable and happy with the job that he has in Detroit, and he is so interested in taking the right opportunity and not the first opportunity,

that he's inclined to just say a crazy number because that's the thing that's going to push him to take something because he's not in a hurry. Is that wrong? No, I think that tells you that he's not ready, though, and that's okay. You know, I think it's okay to be still sometimes, and I think that's what's so... I respect it. I honestly like envy it as a personality trait. Absolutely, to be able to just be, right? Everyone is always climbing, everyone's always thinking next. Why not be in the moment and try to excel as much as you can and max out that space?

They didn't win a Super Bowl. They had obviously a phenomenal season. But I know he and his quarterback, Jared Golf, have a fantastic relationship. They've grown together. And so maybe the opportunity comes next year. I think the reason why 98% of the league looks at this and go, Are you crazy? You take this opportunity because you look at situations like Lou Anaromo last year.

Yeah. One of the hottest names in the coaching cycle. It's such a different resume, though. Right? It is. How old is Lou? 58. So if you're a 58 to 60-year-old defensive coordinator compared to a 35-year-old

offensive coordinator that has put together one of the best five offenses link for multiple years, I think you are justified in assuming that your opportunities will continue to come. where for the other guys, maybe they're a little bit more fleeting. Yeah, and they have a little bit more patience there because they've got a lot more time. And maybe there is a little naivete there, right? Just not understanding how difficult it actually is. You talk to Dan Quinn now, and the Washington Commander's social media team posted a video of him walking off the private jet that picked him up to bring him to Virginia.

And he exhaled when he walked off the plane. and it was very authentic. It wasn't some weird edit job. It was, I'm back. This was a road, right? Because we know he had had opportunities. Some teams were flirting with him over the years, but nothing seemed to be right.

So finally, Washington pulls the trigger on him. But one of the conversations I had at the Senior Bowl that came up multiple times over dinner was the idea that some of these coaches, like Belichick want all the power. Is this a good thing? Are you okay with that as an owner? And we obviously just saw that is not true.

Owners are not comfortable with a strong personality, a decision maker telling everyone in the building what they want. Is that ego and power dynamics or is that looking at recent history and realizing that most of the time, that setup hasn't worked? These are different jobs now. It's a lot being asked of a coach to run personnel and the coaching staff. I mean, there aren't that many examples recently, even the way that it ended in New England, of these guys being the figurehead of the organization and it going well compared to a more traditional setup in some of these other spots.

If you're asking me, I'm putting my money on someone that has the answers to a lot of things. Bill Belichick has seen everything. I understand this idea, this philosophy of collaboration. It sounds great, but somebody has to have the vision. Somebody has to make the decisions. Yes, you want to hear a lot of different voices. And maybe that's where this becomes a problem. Owners that want a lot of different people in the room weighing in that way,

you're seeing it from all different angles. Logically, that is better. You would prefer that, right? Like, if more people being involved in these conversations, you want it to be collaborative, you want more ideas as part of the process. In a vacuum, I think I can understand why people are chasing that, but I also understand that there are downsides. I think I also just look at it in my own life. Exactly.

I go to the people that are older who have done it and tell me everything they did wrong to learn as much as I can. And I just, I think there's something valuable that you're missing out on if you're going to include the ego part of this. So you look at the situation in Atlanta. And I don't think Arthur Blank had an ego in all of this. I think he listened to the people around him. People like Rich McKay who really wanted Rahim Morris to be the head coach. That's where his support was from the start. They allowed Arthur Blank to spend time with Bill Belichick.

Belichick went on his yacht. They had a conversation. And he also flew Belichick on his private jet into Atlanta to his home. They had another one. And I truly believe if he was not influence, If Arthur Blank was not listening to others in his building, he would have probably hired Bill Belichick. But the voices of others that he trusts and believe in told him that Rahim Morris was the guy. As I look at the landscape overall, beyond the head coaching moves, but looking at the coordinator moves and everything that we've heard about maybe why it didn't work out with Big Fanju in Miami, it just feels like a lot of people in charge of these teams, a lot of these people in charge of these teams.

and a lot of these people in charge of these organizations don't want high-profile important members of the organization to be black boxes where it doesn't feel like information is moving both ways. It doesn't feel like everyone's operating on the same page. Even if that guy is maybe more qualified or the most qualified person to have that job,

I just think that dynamics in the league between coaches and players, between coaches and coaches, between ownership and coaches, it feels like they're changing. And I just don't think many, people in charge want that one-way line of communication with these guys who are a little bit more closed off. Which is that fair? You use the word communication and I think that's what we're actually talking about here in terms of what owners want more of. And I don't necessarily know if communication

is the best trait of a lot of people in these organizations and that's where the problems come. So you bring up the point of not giving the power to the head coach to oversee personnel to make those decisions on who he wants on the 53 man and who they're going to go after in free agency and eventually draft. But then you're seeing other organizations allowing the general manager to be that, to have the final say. And it makes you wonder when you look back historically, what works better? Is it the head coach and GM having those split duties? Is it giving the GM all the power? Seattle, I'm very interested. to see what the dynamics are going to be there.

From what I can gather, John Schneier is going to be calling all the shots for the Seahawks. What is different about that than, let's say, Bill Belichick coming into Atlanta? I think it's the proven infrastructure. That, to me, is what's different. Because I think you can have a coach

that is in charge of the 53, right? And Cal Shanahan is driving the bus in San Francisco. We've seen it work in other places. But look at the strength of that San Francisco front office. And we've got, what, three, four, five guys that were part of that infrastructure in 2017 that now became GMs. That's my problem with the Belichick thing. It's not Bill Belichick having a final say or the 53. It's, okay, well, who's the general manager going to be? See, I think you're jumping the gun. I think you're giving

credit to a front office in San Francisco, right? So we'll go through. We have Minnesota's GM comes from the San Francisco tree. Martin Mayhew, Adam Peters, Adam Peters, Ryan Carthon. I think that's right. Right. So Rand Carthon is now the GM executive vice president, the Tennessee Titans, Adam Peters is now the general manager of the commanders. Okay. They just started. Let's see. Let's see.

They've been given this opportunity coming off this tree in San Francisco, and they are general managers now. But let's see how this transpires over the next few years. The type of players they draft. What type of teams they're building in Tennessee is a perfect example of what we're talking about. He has been given the keys. Rand Carthon is the Tennessee Titans.

He has all the power and all the control. Because Brian Kellan doesn't care. He doesn't. And he is going to go in there. And even if he did care, I don't necessarily believe that ownership there was open to giving a coach power there because they just fired someone that had all the power there or almost all the power. So I think time will tell if that model works. I think in theory, again, everybody wants this collaboration. The collaborative effort where everyone's at the same page and deciding and tuck.

That's not how it works. It's not that cut and dry from the way it's always been explained to me. You want it to be that way. And it's nice, I think, initially. But when it comes down to it, you're going to need someone with that vision. Belichick I get, right? I mean, there's the way that it went in New England over the last couple years. And I think the thing that would scare me the most, if I was Rich McKay, if I was anyone on that search committee,

would have been the idea potentially that it would just been getting the band back together. Front office-wide, coaching staff-wise, that's my concern. Whoever's at the top, as long as you have four or five lieutenants under you that check you, that can push you, there are checks and balances for your process, all of that. That's fine. With Belichick, though, I think there are concerns about what that might have looked like. On Vrabel's side, what is your sense of why Vrable doesn't have a head coaching job right now? I don't think that there was a fit for him.

I don't think he sat in front of any owner who thought that his style was going to work for what they were looking for. What an interesting word to use that, right? Because that's what we're talking about. It's like the way that these guys are personality-wise, the way that they come off, how big of a figure they cut within the building. Do you know I had a GM at the Senior Bowl who mentioned to me Vrabel's physical build that he's a very large human being and can be used. very intimidating to people in an organization that are going to be part of these decisions. And that is a factor, which I left. I said, stop.

That's not something that's real. Who cares what someone physically looks like? And he said, I'm just telling you, I've been in rooms. And somebody's physical presence can make a difference. And if you think about it, it makes sense. Outside of football, it has an effect, right? They always say really tall men have better operations. Opportunities and exactly the rules. Yeah, tell me about it. Yeah, tell me about it. As I sit here living my 5-11 life for the last 35 years and everything that comes with it.

Really tall, stunning, beautiful women are on TV, which is why I'm on a podcast now, right? This is what happens, Travis. But I do think making me feel great right now about where my careers ended up. But this, I think that Belichick and Vrabel are very different. I feel like also from an age factor, Rebo got stuck in that. weird late 40s, early 50s bracket where you're not really young anymore. You know, you're not like Mike McDonald running around. I was surprised that the commanders didn't even meet him, though, for an interview. Even just to learn, right? Because I think we can give him credit for having success in Tennessee. We keep talking about culture building.

Identity. Identity. When you watch a team and understand, like, what the coaching is and what sort of processes are going into it. You watched that team and you understood what it was. There was no gray area to those early Titans teams. Yeah, and even talking to players there since, you know, I think they're still baffled by it because there was just so much respect for what he can do.

And even at the senior bowl, that was a lot of the buzz, too, of, oh, where is he? Everyone just thought he was going to pop up and get a job and that word just didn't get out. And I do believe that there were some teams or there are some teams that were interested in bringing him, bringing him into be a defensive coordinator. We'll see if that still pans out. But I think that would be pretty shocking to see him go from where he was. He might as well just get paid this year and hang out, right? Golf is fun.

When you're getting paid a lot of money from somebody else. He's going to be on a short list for head coaching jobs next year. He doesn't have to go put his time in as a coordinator this year. I don't feel like that's necessary. See, I don't know. Because we're seeing such a shift in the way owners are hiring and they are looking for that young and hot type of play caller initially right out of the gate. Obviously, we'll have to see what happens over the next year

in which emerging offensive coordinators are coming out because you bring up a great point, which is they're extinct, right? Everyone wants Sean McVeigh, I get it, but we're running out of guys. Look at where we're at now with these trees and with these offensive coordinators. Just the NFC South, okay? This week, the NFC South has hired three offensive coordinators. Clint Kubiak, Zach Robinson, Liam Cohen. Let's talk about these.

Clint Kuback was already an offensive coordinator a couple years ago. They were fine in Minnesota. Whatever. He goes and takes a nondescript job on the Niners staff. But because it's on the Niners staff, fast track immediate. We're picking off the seventh layer of the Shanahan-McVay tree now, and that's what we're doing. Zach Robinson, never call plays ever. I am excited about what he could potentially do because it's an unknown.

Those guys that we haven't seen do it from that tree, it's like, ooh, there's intrigue. Like, maybe he can do this well. William Cohen, the Rams retooled, here's what I'll say about this. The Rams retooled their offensive coaching staff last off season. And I think that they did that with intentionality. They wanted to remake what that building felt like compared to what it was in 2022. He was the offensive coordinator in 2022. So you have two guys who have already done this to middling results and one guy who's

never done this. And we come away from being like, yeah, that makes sense. Those are the guys that everyone is chasing. And I totally understand how they landed there. It's a formula that is working and it's successful. And you have to figure Sean McVeigh sitting there like, yep, this is what I've created. I've created a florist. Every year that guy.

And it's, I will never. At least Michael Fleur kept it still there. He got a couple of guys to hang around this year. It's true. One of my favorite things is to reflect back on hot takes and tweets that you have. And I remember the day that the Rams hired Sean McVeigh, I tweeted with so much knowledge and Intel and obviously insight. Shaw McVeigh is too,

I can't even say without laughing. Shaw McVeigh is too young to take on the responsibilities that come with being a head coach. This is all moving too fast. Well, but he was a coordinator for like three years before he got that job. And you talk about experience and seeing it and obviously being mentored by John Gruden and Mike Shanahan

and being around it. And I always believe in, and not, I won't even tell you, I believe. I know this for a fact because I still talk to all, these guys that the coaches that were in Washington during those hell years obviously was Kyle Shanahan, Matt Will Flore, Sean McVeigh, and there's 40,000 Rahehani Morris, there's 40,000 yeah, I think Kevin O'Connell was even there for him, everyone was there, they saw a lot and they learned. They learned how to get their adversity and I'm sure also what not to do. And I truly believe

that is what's made them really great leaders as well. And, and, and, problem solvers because they were faced with so much at such a young age. But they had tons of experience doing that. It wasn't like, as you said, Shaw McVeigh calls plays for one year and gets a head coaching job. He was there for a while. At least two, maybe three as the offensive coordinator. He was a tight ends coach first and then he worked his way out.

The last kind of observation I had about the head coaching cycle specifically, I want to talk about Mike McDonald and about him going to Seattle and not Washington, right essentially had a choice probably decided to go to Seattle he did Washington offered him he then went to Seattle and Seattle gave him a much better opportunity and he enjoyed the Seattle visit more from what I was told this is going to be an ongoing thing that I want to keep revisiting because every single cycle we're going to have five eight ten jobs that come

open and we're going to have to decipher which are the good jobs and which are the bad jobs and I think the McDonald thing presents an interesting experiment The idea and promise of the Washington job, new ownership, second overall pick, all this cap space, all this flexibility, it's a blank slate. In Washington, GM's been there for 14 years. You know who the quarterback is. You got some proven pieces. You know what the ownership is like. The Chargers job at the end really being the most attractive job because of the quarterback.

I think that certainty rules these decisions and rules the appeal. more than we like to give credit. I think that we like to look at, all right, look how well set up and well positioned this organization is. And I think the people that are actually choosing to take these jobs and maybe the only one they're ever going to get want the certainty. They want things that they can actually bank on because they've seen them work. There's some irony there, right?

So I had a general manager say to me, there's so much value in the head coach who doesn't have any blemishes yet. Right? So we just saw the cycle where some of these new guys like Mike McDonald are going to getting opportunities like Dave Canales. They're getting chances because you don't know their words. You don't know anything about them. It's the hope that you're by.

Mystery box. The thought of what they can be. Whereas you're seeing coaches perhaps maybe pick these organizations that they know everything about that. They have all the information. I understand why the commanders, yes, on paper, sound exciting and great. And even being down there over the last year or so, you feel the excitement about where they're headed. Having the information, having a little bit of the blueprint can give you a lot more job

security than a, it's not a startup, but it's that same idea. Joining a company that's been in business for 40 years versus a company that's really just trying to figure it out. They have a committee of NBA people. They're really trying to get a lot of different voices in to try to figure out the direction they're going, whereas, you know, Seattle, they know exactly what they want. And they knew what they wanted from the start. I was told they were looking for a Pete Carroll type just younger. They were going defense right out of the gate. They were moving in that direction. It's not surprising to me because if you look at what's happened to them over the last two or three years,

they tried everything, everything. Let's do a little Fangio. Well, Clint Hertz here. We'll call the defense, but we'll sprinkle in some of these Sean Desai ideas. And this year, well, Clint's going to take over, but we're going to try all these different funky coverages that we didn't play before. and we're going to work on the fronts and we're going to be a little bit more modern, and it never took. And so you look at what the offense has been, and the offense has pieces.

The offense has had production. They can't figure out the defense. So if I'm that organization and I'm John Schneider, I'm saying, listen, if we can get a guy in here and we can build defense that can stop these monsters that we have to play against four times a year, we'll figure out the offense because we've already seen that work. So I get heading that direction if you're Seattle. And you're not getting a type of play caller here on defense that is considered, a whiz kid. And this isn't taking away from coach at all. This is just the way he, the identity of what his defenses is what we've seen before.

This isn't going to be something so creative and outside the box that we're all so interested of what is this going to be. We know what it is. We've seen this before. It's sturdy. It's sturdy. Yeah. And he's a sturdy coach.

You know, some of these guys that are a little bit younger, you know, they have that sort of vibe about them where maybe they like the microphone. They like the press conference. They like the spotlight. Mike McDonald's not that sort of guy. So I don't think that that's something that you really have to worry about. He's a 36-year-old coach, but he's really like 48 and grizzled when it comes to, I think, how he approaches all of this stuff. It's like he was in Vegas for eight days.

Yeah. Mike McDonald feels every day like how I'm going to feel next Monday. Let's stick with Washington very quickly because we've had some news over the last six hours or so since I got off the plane. Cliff Kingsbury reportedly going to be the offensive coordinator. in Vegas, that falls through. Now he is the offensive coordinator, reportedly, for Washington. What happened over the last two days? Why the intrigue, I think, around Cliff Kingsbury, and why did it end up playing out the way

that it did based on who you've talked to? I thought you immediately were to say Washington's trading up to go after their quarterback me. I can't do it. Every single day having some new nugget about what's going to happen with the number one overall pick, it's I cannot make it to me. I'm never going to get there. It's exhausting.

Brad Spielberger from PFF has a great meme going where it's the how many days since nonsense from the office. And with Caleb Williams, it's every single day you're erasing it. Zero days since nonsense with the entire draft situation. And we never learned because you look back at this time last year and nothing coming out about the draft was even correct. That's why I just don't pay attention to it. I just don't care right now.

None of it matters. That's the difference between you and I read all this. and I buy into it and I start making myself, you know, or I put myself in a position where I'm chasing these stupid stories for no reason. But you're right. It is too early. But in terms of Cliff, I was told that there was a snag in the contract. Okay.

When I've heard the snag and the contract tale before, though, there's usually more to it. There's usually something more specific in terms of the relationship with the coach, with the owner, with the GM. So we'll find out more down the line. I'll stick with what I was just told. I'll report that it was contractual. But I reached out to some people in Washington

within minutes of when that happened and said, you know, what about Cliff? And they were on it immediately. So it makes me think that they were talking before all of this to try to see if they can lure them to Washington. What's the league opinion of Cliff Kingsbury? because we have two teams fighting over him to be their offensive coordinator.

The way that it ended in Arizona last year and just the way that the second half of those seasons went, the offense left a lot to be desired in moments. It felt disjointed at times. If you look at what USC's offense was this year when he was there, they took a huge step back. I mean, everyone who's going to be watching Caleb Williams tape over the next three or four months can watch 2022 and watch 2023 and see the gap there. What does the NFL think of Cliff Kingsbury?

I know you don't give your podcast titles or at least each show, but I would like this show to just be mystery box. And the reason why is because here's another example. And it's kind of what you were saying before about, about Rable going away for a year. The mystery of Cliff again in the NFL helped him a lot. I think this thought, everyone just remembers some of the good moments that he had. And he did have a few.

I was surprised that he got as much traction because I do recall when he was trying to look to get back in. And he was sending out some messages to different GEOC. and head coaches run lead that he had been interested in trying to get back. I don't, I didn't feel like everyone was excited to get them on their staff. Yeah. And then this title wave of look who's back and look, some of it is media driven.

Okay. It doesn't, it doesn't. It's late in the process too. There aren't that many guys. Correct. There's a little bit of desperation. You got Peter Schragger and Good Morning football showing pictures of him sitting in, sitting in Cliffs home going up there, giving him, all this stuff helps it.

And this isn't taking shots. Like, this is great. If you have people moving that message along, reminding decision makers who are watching and listening that, oh, yeah, I'm here. I'm here. It helps. So I know Dan Quinn was looking for someone that he feels comfortable,

just handing it all over to. And obviously with Cliffs experience, being a head coach in both college and the NFL, he's going to be able to manage this. So how long was the time frame between when the Washington or the Vegas contract fell through and when he was hired in Washington? A day? Right? Less?

Yeah. I'd say just about a day and a half. So let's think about this practically. Even if he was on the radar for Dan Quinn and that staff, how much time does, do Dan Quinn and Adam Peters have to go back and watch 2022 Cardinals film before they make this to do. decision. Well, it goes back to when you interview for the job, right? So when Dan Quinn met with Washington, he had to have a list of coordinators that he was hoping. But how much work do you think is actually being put into who's picking these coordinators? And how much do they actually understand about the guys that they're picking? Because I have a feeling that it is way less than people

that follow the NFL wanted to be. It's scary, actually. I had a conversation with an offensive coordinator looking for a job and he said you don't understand how grueling these interviews are I said oh because they're just asking you so many questions he said no it's like starting from zero you have to explain because they don't know you're not walking in to a situation

where they have a whole book on you they barely know you so if you can sell it you're in Pull the gotta have them's. Pull the best stuff. Show it. You're in.

It's crazy. That's just a reads to a larger conversation that probably needs to happen about how truncated this process is. The fact that it happens in three weeks after the season ends is insane. It's truly insane. I remember texting a few days after one of the hirings about,

I was texting with someone that didn't get a job. And he didn't even know what job I was talking about because he had interviewed for a bunch of others. And I was using the name of a general manager and I said, hey, the GM told me, blah, blah. And it wasn't clicking because I think he just had so much on his mind. And just to, I've always thought about this too, especially when I've been reporting, you know, this person's here. And then tomorrow they're going to travel to L.A. And then after L.A., they're going to Florida.

Like, how are they even able to do all this prep work? It's crazy. I mean, at least those guys, over time, you build the book that you're going to bring. in, right? You're prepared for this moment. But if you're a coach, you get to the end of this season, you have a meeting with ownership on the Monday after the year is over. Your offensive coordinator's under contract. You think he's going to be back. After that meeting with ownership, they say, you know what? I didn't need to make a change. So it's January 11th that that happens. You didn't even know you'd need a new offensive coordinator before that conversation. So now, in the span of a week,

you have to build a list of candidates, you have to do legwork on those candidates, and you have to figure out who is actually the right person for that job. There is no way in that period of time, you can go back and watch six offenses to the degree that you need to to have an actual opinion on who you should hire. Exactly. It's almost as if you need to spend most of your time during the season, not just worried about your own team, but worry about everybody else's. And most of the time that's usually what's happening. It's they're recalling from a game when they played that actual team. I'm talking about a candidate.

Exactly what it is. And just saying, well, when we played you guys, we did this, this and this. And I saw that you guys had problems here, here and here. And that's how they're sort of informing these organizations, which is why I was saying I thought Washington would bring in more people to interview, to learn more about what they're doing. But I truly believe they obviously had Ben Johnson as their number one choice. That fell through.

Mike McDonald was next. And then Dan Quinn. And I think in the end, sometimes this happens. You fall into it and maybe it works out. Any coordinator moves that piqued your interest? You saw that. I was like, oh, man, okay, that's an interesting one. Ken Dorsey made me go, wait, really?

Because Buffalo looked very different after Ken left. And I know they had a lot of success with him. And in Cleveland, knowing Kevin Stepansky likes to call the play. plays, he runs the offense, he has the control over everything that they do on that team, and obviously more specifically on the offensive side of the ball. I just was surprised they went in that direction. I know Brian Johnson had interviewed for the job, and I thought that was going to be their higher action.

I thought they would go. Interesting. They would move there. So I'd say that one stands out to me the most. These coordinator moves, that and the one in Philly with Kellan Moore. And Kelmore will call plays in Philadelphia, so that's a little bit of a different dynamic. But I think that there are teams and staffs around the league that have gotten to the end of

the season and said to themselves, we need new ideas. Right? In Philly, it's the most obvious. Philly just needed a reset. They needed people to come in and be like, well, what if you tried this? What if this was your answer to this? Which I am interested to see how that shakes out, right? Because if Nick Siriani had his hands in on everything, you're telling me now he just

could be able to say, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, you're going to get this. I mean, you think there's probably a conversation that happened with the two guys who run that organization with Nick Suriani after the season ended. I'm sure there was a very, very long conversation. In fact, I know for a fact, there was a very, very long conversation. I don't know if he's necessarily the one Nick is making that choice ultimately, but I have to imagine that Jeffrey Lurie and Howie Rosman got to the end of the year and be like, we need some new stuff.

We need some things that are very different than what we've been doing over the last two years, and that's what Callmore provides you. And with Kandorsi, this is a staff in Cleveland that, I don't see it's gotten, it had gotten stale. But if you look at the way that it was comprised, over the last three, four years since Dufansky got there, they had only lost people. Drew Petsing went to be the offensive coordinator in Arizona. He was the quarterback's coach, but he's been Kevin's right-hand guy for years and years and years.

So I think they got to the end of this, and when they moved on from Ban Pelt, it was more about how can we bring in new stuff? How can we make sure that we're taking the offense in a new direction? And if you look at what the bills were under Kandorsi over the last couple years and what the Browns have been over the last several years, there's a disconnect there. they're going to sell you that as a positive, not a negative. Because what these teams are trying to do is they build the staffs is making sure they're re-energizing those rooms and what the offense looks like with new ideas. I do believe a lot of people in Cleveland are curious how the

offense is going to work with Ken Dorsey's influence now and how much input he's truly going to have. I know I had somebody tweet asked me a question about if Stifansky is going to give away those play calling duties. I would be surprised if he did. I would be shocked. He's not just going to do that because he's not going to have an owner that's going to tell him to do it like we're seeing in Philadelphia where it's we're changing this up um but I I found that one to be that one really stood out and maybe some of that is superficial maybe it's because you know one person's trash is another person's treasure you know and it makes you go well it didn't work there what makes you think it's going to work here I think two things one the offense was good

under Ken Dorsey. It was good. They needed a change. My sense of why they needed to change, this is all just kind of secondhand, picking up things that, like, Brandon Bede's putting down in press conferences. Ken Dorsey and Joe Brady, very different personality was, right? Having somebody who's maybe a little bit more dynamic, a little bit different at the front of the room, when you're Ken Dorsey in Cleveland, you aren't the leader of the

offense. You can just be an ideas guy, right? Like, that's the benefit of being an offensive coordinator for a, team with a play calling head coach. It's a different sort of job as an offensive coordinator, even beyond the play calling. What's being asked of you day to day? Now, the person that is going to be in charge of the offense without having someone overseeing it as much as we know Kevin Stefansky would is going to be Arthur Smith in Pittsburgh. And that one I really like. And I know Falcons fans are going to tweet at me of,

oh, you didn't know how to utilize our key players. We already went on a rant about this last show, me and Nate. So this is familiar territory. Okay, so I'm probably, I'm going to guess knowing both your personalities, you're going to probably agree with me. Yeah, you're asking the wrong person here if you won't push back on this. Okay. Okay. So we're together on this. I think sometimes Arthur overthought it. I think sometimes when he just did what he did well, as simple as that sounds, he always had success. And going back from play calling in Tennessee and seeing snippets of it in Atlanta. And I, Arthur Smith is a great example. Well, someone may just be better at playing coordinator and being in that role versus the head coaching stuff,

which I think was really hard for him. I also think that him having guardrails on and having somebody put the guardrails on will be helpful. Because what happened to them last year, this is like maybe too far psychoanalysis, but I think what happened last year and the success they had in 2022, relative success, their top 10 offense according to advanced metrics with what? Drake London, an injured Kyle Pitts, Marcus Mariotta, a quarterback. Howard Alger. And the weirdness that propelled that success,

I think drove more weirdness in the 2023 offense than was probably necessary. I would agree. And what really stood out to me during this cycle, every single team, and I can say this and report this comfortably, wanted Arthur Smith as their offensive coordinator. The teams that were looking to fill that void had reached out to him, which I think,

which surprised some people based on what they saw in Atlanta and thinking that, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. That's one of those situations where everyone around the league sees it that maybe sometimes others don't. It's not surprising to me. He had multiple successful years in Tennessee. They did some good stuff in Atlanta. He's really smart.

The New York Jets met with him even just to have him join their offensive staff here, knowing that Nathaniel Hackett has been struggling with Aaron Rogers. he's not the same type of play caller that we saw when he was having success in Green Bay, maybe get some new ideas in that building. And then eventually he wound up picking that opportunity to work with Mike Tomlin. And the offensive coordinator or the offensive line coach there is the guy he worked with in Tennessee. So there's a lot of there. And they're running back coach.

Yeah. So there's a lot of stuff. They're running back coaches there as well. So yeah, it is the Tennessee of the north, which would have been really funny if Arthur wound up there. That would have been such a bizarre coaching staff in terms of their backgrounds, but also kind of smart. Yeah. The one other coordinator thing that I,

when I saw it, I was like, oh, okay, is Anthony Weaver going to Miami. Okay, so that's two things. One, it's so cool and so crazy how fast everything shifts, right? So we're two years removed, maybe even a year removed from a third of the league, wanting to run a Vic Fangio-esque defense and picking off of the Vic Fangio tree.

And now, if you look at every single opening for a defensive coordinator job in the third of the league, the NFL. Not a single one of them were filled with direct Vic Fangio disciples other than Vic Fangio. It was either continuity and the places there were continuity, Patriots, Bills, Ravens, Rams, all stuck with guys on staff. Bears, Packers, Jags, Titans, Chargers all went to other defensive systems outside of the Vic Fangio tree. And this is a year or two removed from everybody wanting it. Now, people want the Raven stuff. Weavers in Miami, you have Zach Oranow, taken over for Mike McDonald, obviously.

Mike McDonald's taking that job, and then Jared Wilson's in Tennessee. So now we go from one team running. And Jesse Minter, you can make an argument that's similar sort of system. So when we went from one team doing the Raven stuff last year to now potentially six teams doing it as the number of Fangio teams gets less and less. How fast that happens and how fast the system du jour shifts in the NFL is wild to me. It's a blip of success. And that's actually taking away from what Baltimore's done. They've had continued.

I get wanting to chase it. It's awesome. The model works, the structure works. It's why the commanders were obsessed with how Baltimore built everything. They want to basically copy what they're doing there. And Anthony Weaver is just one of those coaches that other coaches have said, how come he doesn't have a job yet? He's just players really like him.

He had a lot of success in Houston working with Whitney Merciless and JJ Y. And, you know, he'd been in Baltimore. The last few seasons were the same team that drafted him when he was a player. And, you know, his biggest fan is Coach Harbaugh. He raves about him. Coach is pretty nice about everybody, but you talk about Anthony Weber, and you can tell that he knows that he's got head coach qualities about him. So he'll take over in Miami where Vic was.

And, you know, you're hearing a little bit of chatter about how it wasn't working for Vic in Miami perhaps it's a little too player friendly there for what Vic prefers. But that's what I'm talking about that shift in just like what type of coaches are being valued around the league and what head coaches are valuing in their staffs. I mean, the idea that like Vic Fangio can do the job that he did, which was very good. That defense was really fucking good before everybody got hurt. And we get to the end of the year and they're like, yeah, it's not our vibe here. It's crazy. But that's kind of where we are, I think.

And Anthony Weaver's vibe, super player friendly. right, a former player himself. Obviously, his build did not scare Miami. He is also a very large human thing. Let's bring a full circle here before we get out of here. What do you think Belichick and Grable spend there you're doing? Watching tons of tape. I would like to pitch them to do a podcast, just them.

I would love to hear just Fridays put together some commentary about what they see around the league and then you have to have the illustrator, right? And just have him breaking down. Tell Bill that we have spots. I mean, if he wants to come on, he's more than welcome.

There I go. See you later, everybody. I think it would make a lot of sense. I don't see them doing media this year. I could see maybe perhaps a couple appearances during big events to just go in, maybe hop on a fox set

for the playoffs next year when you know they want to get back in there. I am going to be very interested to see, let's just call it their campaign for 2025. Yeah. What these two believe the way to get back in is going to be. And if it's through the media, oh boy, how interesting this will be. Two people who aren't exactly the most media-friendly types. Yeah, you don't say.

Having to hop in and go in a place that they're not comfortable to try to get that support. So soon, you know, we'll be seeing Peter Shrigger walking Bill Belichick's dog, and then it'll be a whole big thing. And then whatever it will take to get them. I can understand that, though, because I think that Belichick specifically has to change the narrative, right? The narrative drove so much of this, and I think that he has to do something to change it, whether that's being more media-friendly, that's putting his name out there, whether that's showing a little bit of personality, or I think whether that's coming into some meetings next year and being like, I would. watched the league this year. Here are the 20 guys I think are good coaches. I think that is the way it goes. I think it's, I watched

here's where I think I can make your team better based on my experiences. Even when you read Belichick's thank you note that he put in the Boston Globe to Patriot fans, he had some charm in there. And anyone that has spent time with him has said he can be very charming,

both Belichick and Ray Bull. So I think they're going to probably have to lean into that a little bit. And look, there's nothing wrong with stepping away a little bit. They could all use a little bit of recharge. And they both may come back and be the two hottest candidates next year, depending how all this shakes out. Them and Ben Johnson. Depending on the lines here goes. If he's ready. Diane Rossini, always great to chat with you. Great to see you. Great to be doing this in person. And I'm looking forward to this week, however long it may be. I cannot wait to attack the Vegas strip. See you next week.

Guys, thank you very much for listening. We will have a show coming your way pretty much every day this week. We're off tomorrow. But plan is Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and football GM on Saturday. And we've got some cool video stuff coming your way from Radio Row. I'm paying off the wins league bet on Thursday at Radio Row. So be on the lookout for that. I'm not looking forward to that.

But you guys hopefully will get a kick out of it. For now, though, that is all we got. A lot of Super Bowl. chatter on tap over the next three or four days. Until then, appreciate you listening. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.