The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The 2025 NFL Draft pass-catcher class blowout!

Episode Date: April 18, 2025

Three receivers went in the top 10 of the 2024 NFL Draft. That isn't likely to be the case this year, but we could see 10 come off the board by the end of the second round. The tight end position might give us our highest-selected pass-catcher this year, with both Tyler Warren and Colston Loveland getting top-10 buzz. No matter what, the pass-catchers are going to give us plenty to talk about draft weekend. They also give Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dane Brugler plenty to talk about on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Dane BruglerExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dane on Bluesky: @danebrugler.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show for you guys today. A long one, but we had a lot to get to. Me, Dane, and Derek just broke down their receivers, past catchers tight ends in this class. Talked about Dane's top eight-ish tight ends. Talked about the top 12ish receivers in this class,

the different flavors of guys that we're going to be getting, some preferences between certain players. Which Iowa State receiver do you like better? Oh, what does that say about you? There's a lot of that on this show, along with breakdowns of Ted McMill and Travis Hunter, the top receivers in this class, really, really enjoyed this conversation with Derek and Dane. Quick reminder before we get going.

Next week, Thursday night, live on YouTube 7.30 p.m. Eastern. Me, Dane, Derek, Bruce Feldman, breaking down every single pick of round one. Doing it from a studio in Chicago, really excited about the look, feel of this show. Some of the bells and whistles we're going to be bringing your guys's way. Some fun guests we're going to be having on over the course of the night. So please come hang out with that. us. And then we'll be back on Friday as well, breaking down every single pick from rounds two and three, 6.30 p.m. Eastern on Friday, live on YouTube. We've done this every year I've done the show,

you know, and you can see the very real growth from the first time Nate and I did it with a couple of iPhones in a hotel room in Chicago to what we've been able to do over the last couple years. And we think that you're going to notice that again, just some of the growing and just some of the progress that we've been able to make with this show. We love doing it. It's one of my favorite things we get to do every year. It is just a chance to really watch Dane Cook and show what he is capable of and breaking down all of these guys.

So if you have not checked out the live draft show before, if you were new to the show, highly encourage you guys to come check that out this year. We'll be talking about it a bunch over the next week or so. We'll plenty of time to talk about it. For now, let's get to the past catchers from the 2025 draft with Dane Bruegler and Derek Klesson right now. We've a jam-packed athletic football show today because we're talking about the past catchers and there are a lot of them. Maybe not the headline-grabbing group that we've seen in some of the last few drafts,

but I think a fascinating collection of receivers and tight ends with a bunch of varied skill sets. So excited to dig into this today. Here to help me do that. First off, it is my co-host here at the Athletic Derek Class. And Derek, how you doing, man? I'm doing great. This is going to be, I don't know how we're going to fit this in like a normal time span for the podcast. I'm going to do my best to keep it moving.

I'm going to trust you. I'll try my best to not go for like eight minutes on all these guys, but I think it's going to be a fun one. Also here today, it is our draft expert at the athletic who is on his 10,000th media appearance in the last week. It's Dan Brugge. How you doing, bud? My 10,000th, but my favorite, because this is going to be a good one.

A lot of past catchers that are fun to talk about in this draft. I can't wait to talk to you guys about where this compares to last year. Like a lot of good stuff we can dive into. Let's dig into this because we've got like 20 guys we want to hit on this show and I want to get us out in relatively short order. Let's start at the top of the draft. I want to talk about guys who are top half of the first round players and somebody who, you know, we have to include in this because if the Browns take him at two, they are likely going to use him as a receiver. If you talk to people who really study the position, you make a really strong argument that he's pretty clearly the best receiver prospect in the draft. And that is Travis Hunter from Colorado.

So, Dane, when you look at Travis Hunter as a receiver only and you try to take out the novelty of being able to play both ways and just sort of the special, maybe like transcendent ability he has as a corner and you're solely evaluating him as a past catcher. What sort of prospect are we talking about and what sort of player might the Browns be getting if they do end up taking him at number two? Yeah, in the beast, he's cornerback one. But if I had him at receiver, he would be wide receiver one very clearly. I kind of lean towards corner because I think he can be a top three corner in the NFL. But I also think he could be a top 10 receiver in the NFL. And I could understand why a team would lean towards offense, especially a team like the Cleveland Browns, if that indeed is indeed their pick at number two.

They need a spark on offense. Travis Hunter can give it to him. I mean, you look at the production this year, 96 catches, almost 1,300 yards, 15 touchdowns. He can win at all levels of the field. you want to get the ball in his hands because he can be special with that speed. And a lot of the same things we talk about on defense about what makes him a special corner. It translates the offense, the ball instincts, the twitch that he moves with. You know, he's a little bit leaner than you want, but he's got, he's six foot.

So he has decent height, decent length, a little bit leaner than you want, but he also plays physical. He doesn't get pushed around by corners. And so I think you want to play him as an X. You want to play him in a slot. Like you just, he's only restricted by your lack of creativity in both offense, defense, across the formation, all these things. So a lot of the reasons why you love them on defense, also the reasons you love them on offense. What did you think when you were watching him, Derek? Just again, solely as a receiver.

I guess my question here is, what sort of ceiling are we talking about? Because when you draft a receiver in the top five, these, those picks are reserved for rare, rare players. And oftentimes it's guys that check every single box physically, or let's say you happen to be a little bit smaller. You're not that 6.3, 2.15, 64, 220 type guy, maybe a Jamar Chase or even a Malik neighbors. If you look at both of them, the certain physical traits they're bringing to the position are so incredibly rare, whether it's the burst or the body control. They just move in a way that is both controlled and explosive. and even talking about Dane saying Travis Hunter is a little bit leaner. Jamar Chase is like 6 foot 205 rocked up.

And Travis Hunter is just not that sort of physical presence at receiver. And so I'm open to the idea that he is worth a top five pick at that position. But I'm just curious as you compare him to some of the other guys, we've seen drafted in that range at that position, because it's usually reserved for these special guys, do you think that he necessarily falls into that same sort of category? He, to me, is more like a receiver. see for you take in the top 12, not in the top five, which is like a stupid little, you know,

delineation. But I do think it matters. And the reason I would say that is one, typically those guys you're taking in the top five are from a size perspective, just kind of rare. It's your AJ greens, your Calvin Johnson's. Like, it's a different level of athleticism and size. And Travis Hunter isn't quite that. I think when I see Hunter, I think if things were to go well for him and he were to spend more time in offensive meeting rooms and really doing more as a route runner, which again, in college he didn't so you could sell me that all that stuff is really going to come along. You're probably looking at something more like Gary Wilson or O'Dow Beckham Jr. Which like, if you tell me you took O'Dow Beckham Jr. with the second overall pick, it's like, yeah, that's an absolutely a win.

And so you're trying to thread a finer needle because of the size and because of you're projecting a little bit what the route running and stuff might look like. But he is, I mean, he's one of the best athletes I've ever seen. And you could absolutely sell me that giving that guy a little bit more time to focus on. offense that yeah he could be a like dain said a top 10 receiver in the NFL and we're nitpicking here right these are these are things on the margins whether it's the 12th pick or the fifth pick but i do think that little gap does explain why some of these guys are drafted in the top five and why a guy like odal beckham slips to the 13th i believe or 14th pick in the draft so and dame what was impressive to me in the little bit i've watched of him is that i think that he has very good instincts as a receiver

even if the refinement isn't necessarily there the way that he comes back to the ball the way that he understand space. He's just a very instinctual player. So to Derek's point, I think that if you wanted to allow him to spend more time on offense to kind of hone that refinement that we're talking about, you can see where the growth can come. Like it's not something where you have to tell yourself a story about where Travis Hunter can be a year from now if he does get to play receiver in a little bit more of a full-time role. Right. And playing receiver in the NFL is all about timing and chemistry and being on the same page as a quarterback. And so there might be a little bit of a learning curve for him as he adapts to what it takes to be an NFL route runner and just the perfect timing that it takes to

be in the right place, the right time when the quarterback expects you to be somewhere. So, you know, with any rookie, there's going to be a little bit of a learning curve. Think about Malik Neighbors last year, who is what, the sixth pick. There's only about a 10-pound difference between these two guys. And they're almost identical height. length. It's just Malik neighbors is right around 200 pounds and Travis Hunter is right around 190 pounds. So, you know, I think that when we think about the impact potential of a player like this, and I think being more open-minded, I think a lot of us have become more open-minded about what a number one receiver can look like. Yeah. And he checks a lot of those box. I think Garrett

Wilson was one of the first names I wrote down as a guy that, okay, maybe not fit every box that you want size wise, but he plays bigger than he looks. And it's all the strengths that he brings outside of that size that really makes him ascend as a player. So I think it's a great point that once he, if he does focus on offense full time, like what he put on film on offense in college was great. If he can really focus on that full time, what does that mean about where he can take this?

So yeah, that's fascinating to think about. And I really, I've asked this to a lot of teams when talking about Travis Hunter. Okay, if he were in last year's receiver class, which we talked about at length about how deep it was, but just how top heavy it was, how deep it was in the first round, where would it be? I think I came to the conclusion that he would be right behind Malik. I gave Marvin Harrison Jr., Malik neighbors, almost identical grades. And then I think Travis Hunter would be right behind neighbors for me just ahead of Ruma Dunzee. But asking teams about it, I got a lot of differing answers.

Some said, you know, they put them right at the top. Others said he'd be fourth on the list. And so, you know, just there is a little bit of projection involved. And I think that's maybe where the disconnect is with a guy like this. I think that makes sense to me. If I were stacking them up, I think right behind where Neighbors was, right ahead of where Adunze is, I think that does make a lot of sense. Let's talk about a guy who does check a lot of the prototypical physical boxes for a top

half of the first round receiver. And that is Ted McMillan from Arizona. Dane, he is your 12th overall player in the beast. Derek, I want to start with you here because I'm very curious. what you think about Ted McMillan as a player. And I kind of want to talk about, again, because he's going to be drafted potentially in the top 10, what sort of ceiling we're looking at with a player like Ted McMillan.

So give me your initial thoughts about what you were thinking when you started gathering these impressions and what you think the ceiling for a player like this might be in the NFL. You know how I feel about Ted McMillan. The 6-4, 200 plus pound guy who looks a lot like, all the comps typically are like Drake, London-esque or T. Higgins-esque. And I love those players because I think aside from just the size and like, oh, they can go up in the air and dunk on you, it's kind of what we actually

just mentioned with Hunter, their ability to come back from the ball, push their hands all the way away from their frame and attack the ball as far away from their body as possible and just snatch it out of the air. It makes playing quarterback so, so easy. And that's why I love a player like Ted McMillian. He just does a lot of stuff. It's one of the best things he does. It's People are going to get it. Number one thing. People are going to get obsessed with the size and the frame and everything else. And I get that.

We can talk about some of that stuff. But when you watch him come back down the stem, and I think two areas, two things that I would point out in those specific instances, when he's running like a deep curl, for example. For a 6-4 guy, he is so smooth. And he sinks incredibly well and it's very natural for him. But when he's coming back down that stem to the ball,

it is, he looks so comfortable doing it. It makes life so much easier on the quarterback. I truly think that's the aspect of his game that might stick out the most, which is kind of crazy to think about when you're talking about a guy who has some of these flashier traits. And because I think when people see like route running and separation, they want to see, they want to see O'Dell Beckham. And I get it.

Like O'Dow Beckos. They want to see release packages. They want to see Instagram shit. Yes. They want to see all that. But like when you watch a guy like Ted McMillan, one, not many guys that size actually can be that explosive.

It's like Julio Jones and A.J. Green and not a whole lot of other guys. And so, like, it's not a bad thing that he can't quite do that. But like you said, he's such a smooth operator. And I think he's a clean route runner in terms of understanding when to cross the player's face and, like, kind of get into their blind spots. I think he does a good job of that. He just, the separation is not that big a deal. One, he's a decent separator for his size.

But then again, when you're able to, in a way, separate from the DB by extending your arms and attacking the ball early, like, that's why T. Higgins is so good. T. Higgins isn't running away from people. he's just consistently getting to the ball first. And that's all that separation is really is having the access to get to the ball first. And they find ways to do that. What I find so interesting about him, Dan, is we've had these speed conversations about Ted McMillan.

And I want to bucket the speed thing into two different areas. When you think about straight line vertical speed, like just on go balls, he doesn't have pull away speed in those moments. He's not an explosive player. But with the ball in his hands, he runs away. from people. His buildup speed is actually very impressive. And it's because of those kind of strange quirks and nuances to his game that when I was watching him, it was hard for me to really compare him to one player specifically. And we can talk a little bit about the shades he has of other guys.

But I just think that the speed question specifically is kind of hard to answer for him because it shows up differently in different moments. He's very slippery after the catch. And he just has a knack for it. He ranked number three in all of FBS this year among receivers in terms of force mistackles. And it's not, you know, part of that is the size and maybe it's a little harder to get him on the ground. But most of it is just his ability to, because he's very flexible. He's got this gumbie-ish body type. And so that shows the catch point. It shows after the catch.

So, yeah, that's an underrated part of his game. And it helps him create those explosives. Nobody in college football had more catches of 20 plus yards over the last two years than McClure. Millen. And so I think, but when it comes down to it, I think a lot of people have been burned by the Nekeel Harries, the Lequan Treadwells, the guys that, exactly. And he doesn't, but guys that didn't have the four four speed and they can separate at will, but they're very different styles of player. And he's much more like the T. Higgins type of player where you just kind of throw it in his area and the catch radius is so impressive.

His ability to go up and get it. And that's finding me the tape where he lets the ball get to his body when he's catching the football. Like it's just, it's not there. That's the number one takeaway from his film is like Derek mentioned. It's catching the ball away from his body. Sometimes it's off his shoe tops.

Sometimes he's elevating and taking it out of the clouds. I mean, the quarterback play was pretty inconsistent. Oh my God. They're best friends. So Team Mac wasn't complaining. They've been best friends. going back until since seventh grade. So it is what it is.

Tough. Very much so. But I think it also helped highlight just how, you know, special he can be with the ball in the air. I mean, he's a ball winner, plain and simple. And that's exactly why the comp for me is T. Higgins. Because you watch T. Higgins. He's not necessarily separating, like, like Derek said,

but he kind of throw it in his area. He knows how to adjust his body, frame the football, snatch it, while still getting two feet in bounds, and there's nothing the defensive back can do about it. So, you know, T. Higgins was a 459 guy at the combine, or the pro day, I believe, when he was coming out. That made him fall to the second round. McMillan ran a 453 at his pro day.

And so not amazing, but that's not going to stop me from drafting a player like this when that's not just, it's not a concern that I have that's going to maybe overshadow his strengths. I have two things that I want to throw out that if I'm going to nitpick him about just areas where I'd like to see a little bit more or I'd have some concerns. One, I wish you had 20% more dog in him. Like 20% more. He shows very little effort as a run blocker.

I just feel like the physicality is not where I'd want it to be with a bigger receiver. Like he's a finesse guy for somebody in that package. And it just leaves me a little cold. I don't think it necessarily detracts from what he is as a receiver. I think he's a special receiver. But I think there are elements of his game that leave me a little bit cold.

And the other thing is, we talk about T. Higgins, who I do think is a dog, especially with the ball in the air. He has bizarrely short arms. Ted does. They're 31.5 inches for a 6'4 player. T. Higgins has 34.5 inch arms.

So that, like, away from the body, kind of contested catchability, even though he is a volleyball player with a 6-4 frame, I do think that's worth paying attention to because I think the catch radius is a little bit smaller than a guy like T who has those go-go-gadgett arm. And that's fair, right?

I mean, I think the length is not T. Higgins in terms of the arm length. I would also add route running. It's something where he can be a little bit more, he can fine tune his route running in terms of manipulating defensive backs. Just a big jump between the Big 12 and what he faced consistently compared to what he's going to see at the next level. Like, he didn't face a lot of press. He didn't have to. So that's going to be a little bit of a new challenge for him. How is he going to face the physical nature of the NFL?

Certainly a fair question to ask. And I mean, I think that is more of the question mark than just saying, oh, well, he's not a speed guy. So I think that's absolutely fair. The press stuff is really the only question I had is that some of his worst reps to me were him not understanding how to get off of press. And you hope that with better coaching and seeing him more that he can figure that out. He's certainly big enough to do it. But that was the one area I actually got slightly hung up on. the one team that I keep coming back to,

if I'm Dallas and he gets to eight, I'm calling the Panthers. I'm doing it immediately. Pick up the phone. Like immediately. Because I don't think that he's necessarily like a top shelf, top tier, like we got to have him receiver prospect.

But I think within the context of their offense specifically and what he gives you next to somebody like C.D. Lamb. I honestly think we talked so much, Derek, about the juice Dallas as the offense needs. and you'd think is a 4-5-5 guy, the juice, and I kind of think he is. Like, it's just this weird thing where he falls into this box

that I think perfectly suits with the skill set that that offense needs. And I don't know if he'll be there at 12, but I think he might be there at 8. Well, and I think there's two arguments for it. One, very different player and package, but this is what the Vikings did with Jordan Addison in drafting that, you know,

an ancillary piece alongside their star receiver and Justin Jefferson. But then with that, you know, he's going to throw at somebody in a contested window 16 yards down the field. You know who's really good at making those plays at McMillan. So it's actually a pretty perfect pairing. And it'll be interesting with the Saints picking at 9 because that's a team that could really use size at receiver. That's why I said 8.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's the direction I went in my 7-round mock. We know the Saints need defense in a big way, but that has to be appealing the idea of McMillan there. I'll say this. If he's on the board at 12, I don't think he's on the board at 13. I think it's just it's a perfect for for Dallas. It makes a lot of sense.

It's kind of chalky when you're doing a mock draft, but it's because it makes perfect sense. I think that would be the pick. The last thing I want to say about McMillan, if I were comparing him to players, I think that Drake London has been somebody that people have thrown out. Drake London is more sudden where McMillan is smooth.

So I think that's like the big, I think London's short area quickness is so impressive. And I don't think McMillan brings that. But I think that's really the big, biggest difference and tweak between their games. So that's kind of what I would say. It's a less sudden, more smooth version of Drake London. And so I don't know how else to put it. Like there's a little Michael Pittman in there. He's a unique player. Like it's hard to compare him to one single guy, but that's kind of where I landed. All right, let's get to your other guys

that you have in your top 12 overall prospects here, Dane. Both of them tight ends. Let's start with Tyler Warren, who is your eighth overall player. Just a fascinating collection of traits and usage. I mean, a guy that's unlike really any college tight end I can remember. in terms of how much volume he got and the variety of ways he got that volume at Penn State last year. Similar to the Temick-Millan conversation, and again, these high-end guys, the best-case scenario for a guy like Tyler Warren to you is what, Dane? That's a good question. You know, I think that in some ways he's a throwback.

In other ways, like, you know, he's going back to last year watching that Penn State offense, I thought it was pretty clear, like, he was their best tight end. but Theo Johnson was getting all the love. And he ended up going to the draft. He was, you know, went in what, early fourth round of the Giants where Tyler Warren went back and continued to get better and better. And credit to the Penn State coaching staff, they realized, okay, this is our best player. So we're going to, our whole offense is going to be built around the tight end, which was

the right move and it almost got them to the national title game. They relied on him for everything. And it's funny, the more you dig into Tyler Warren, you kind of see like, okay, this makes sense. Like his dad was played football at Richmond. His nickname was the hitman. Like, okay, yeah, okay. This is starting to make sense. Like you understand.

He's not really a vocal guy, Tyler Warren. He's not very, he's more introverted than extroverted. But he's just the way, you know, build the whole plane out of him, right? Like he's just, he has that dog to him that you were mentioned earlier. He doesn't really have a true weakness. Like he's not, I think he's been kind of painted as this. like a prototypical blocker in line. He's going to hit you in the mouth.

And he can do that. But I think he's more, he's closer to average as a blocker than above average. Like that's, you want him as a past catcher. I really wish we could. The aesthetic of him has morphed the way that people talk about his blocking ability. Like the aesthetic of him as a player has miscast what he is as a blocker.

Because he's like bulky. Yes. He looks like he should be able to move people around. Yes. The way he plays in all the other areas, I think has. kind of over has kind of colored the way that people talk about is blocking in a way that I don't think is totally accurate.

He is 256. He is a bigger guy. But I mean, if you take his best highlights as a blocker, you can be, you know, I get it. Like they're floating around on Twitter.

But when you really study his blocking, it's not the strength to his game. I mean, his strength is really just being able to win at the catch point and be physical, play through contact. And you just know what you're getting with him. And so there's a, you could argue he has maybe the highest.

floor of any player. And that's hard to say about a tight end because tight ends, you know, it's a harder position to translate to the next level. But you just feel like you know what you're getting with a player like this. And so for me, I graded him and Colson Loveland, who we'll talk about more here in a second, I graded them very similar. And usually I chase the upside. But with these two guys, I just, you know what?

I'm going to take the better football player right now. And to me, that's Tyler Warren. I really liked Tyler Warren. and I, my comp for him, and I, I've seen people doing a lot of like the George Kittle thing. And like he's, Kittle is kind of uniquely explosive. So I think that that is pretty unfair to any Teton. 100%. And I think it's really, really important to continue mentioning that when we talk about Kittle.

Because people are going to look at the yak ability from Warren. It's different. It's a very different sort of yak production. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that. Yeah, Warren is very, like he's explosive for a Tidin. But Kittle is. just like explosive for a football player like anybody he he's just different um and it's fine to not be that guy my comp for him actually is so tucker craft really broke out for the packers last year and like

when i look at their body type the way that they can like play through contact sometimes they can go up for the ball in the air like those two are very similar to me i think craft right now is a better blocker because he has longer arms but just in terms of the way that they function as past catchers you can throw some screens to them every now and then i think that is more kind of what what we're looking at with Warren. I love this for this reason. And this is a conversation I wanted to have about both of these guys. And maybe we could save it to the end of the Lovell and thing, but we can just do it now. Tucker Kraft was a second round pick. I think that Colson Lovelland reminds me a little bit of like a souped up version of Sam Laporta, who's also a second round pick. I'm really wondering if we are

letting the Brock Bowers thing make us get a little bit ahead of ourselves with these two players. Because when I look at Brock Bowers, Dane, I think Brock Bowers, Dane, I think Brock Bowers, is if you combine Tyler Warren and Colston level it into the same player. And so when you take them individually, I think the fact that they're 8 and 11 on your big board and we're talking about them as top 12 players, to me that is saying more about the quality of this class than it is about them as players. That is the nail on the head. I think it says it's more about this class than anything else.

Like when I'm doing a top 30 board and somebody has to be eight. Somebody has to be, like, it's in when you, after you get past the Abdul Carter, Travis Hunter, Ashen, Genti, Mason, Graham, like somebody has to be five, six, seven, eight, nine. It was harder to do that this year than maybe any other year I've ever done this. And so there's a certain point where you look at these tight ends and say, well, look, I just, I feel like I know what I'm getting with Tyler Warren. I didn't know. I'm getting a pass catcher who can really be, help elevate my offense.

And yeah, usually, I'm, I'm. I remember having this conversation actually with Bruce Feldman back in October during the season when it became clear that, all right, Tyler Warren's having one of those years. And I remember saying that exact. I compared him to actually a little bit like, okay, we saw Sam Leport to go here. And so I guess maybe he's probably going to go late one early two. But the closer we got to the process, it just kind of keep bumping them up because you're like, well, I'd rather have him than, you know, this idea of a pass catcher or idea of a pass rusher. or maybe this guy. And so it's a unique group of just, you know,

because if these guys were in last year's class, they're both behind Brock Bowers. They're probably more towards 20 in last year's class. This year is just a unique group of players at the top. It's going to be a fascinating set of decisions for those teams picking from like 10 to 22. And I say 22 because the chargers are 22. And obviously they could really use a tight end.

But, Dan, we were talking about this on text last week, talking about the bears at 10. And are the tight ends maybe the best, option for them there compared to some of the other players who might be available. And there's no saying he'll get here. I, after watching both of these guys, would rather have Ashton Jensi than either one of the tight ends. And I'd still think I'd rather have some of the defensive line prospect than either one of

these tight ends. Because I think that they're very good. I don't think they're special in the way that Brock Bowers was. And I think if we're removing Brock Bowers from the conversation, it really gets us into a discussion about the checky or the checkered kind of. spotty track record for tight ends drafted this high and the hit rate on those players. Because you need to be complete and special, I think, to hit that early as a tight end when you're drafted in the top 15. And I'm just not sure either of these guys is that, Derek. I just have a

tiny bit of pause with it. I'm really glad you brought this up because I do like both of these players. But for me, when I graded them, they were more like that fringe first round grade. And then Dane makes the great point. It's just like the rest of the class around them is not that great. so they get to be elevated a little bit. And specifically, it's not a strong receiver class, right? So you got to get past catchers somewhere and that might incline some of us to push some of these other past catchers up a little bit. But we keep doing that and we keep up when we do that.

And so here, and let's talk about Love one because I think he's an interesting discussion kind of as a corollary to this. We did this with Dalton Kincaid, where Dalton Kincaid was the best past catcher in this group that had Zayflowers and JSM and whatever. He was the next best past catcher. So let's do that. But I think Dalton Kincaid is limited enough. as a blocker where he's not a better athlete than the corners and the safeties that are going to be

guarding him and he's not physical enough to be an in-line guy. I think that Colston Loveland is physical enough, Dan, that I think he alleviates some of those concerns. And that's why I'm excited about him as an idea because he's incredibly fluid. He's a really good route runner. He has really good body control. But when you watch him in line, he's got some snap to him. Like if he puts on a few more pounds. I actually think he can be a little bit more complete than somebody like Kincade. And that's why I can start to talk myself into this idea of him being the best past catcher available because he is somebody at tight end that can do a little bit of everything for you. If Kohlson Loveland played this whole season without being hurt, I can almost

promise you he would have been higher for me than Tyler Warren. The injury stuff. A ceiling is absolutely higher. Yes. And I think it's part of the Dalton Kincade effect maybe like you mentioned like that's something that um you know i've definitely thought about because he was kind of viewed as the not like can't miss but like okay you feel like you're hitting a double here let's let's not swing for the fences let's take a really good pass catcher really good ball skills and he's been banged up a little bit in buffalo and it just it hasn't worked out through two seasons and it still feels like buffalo needs more pass catchers partly because kincade has not been able to develop and with loveland can he stay healthy. This year it was a shoulder, it was a concussion. Like, there was just multiple

things that pile it up. In the NFL, it's just not going to get any easier. But if it, he stays healthy, then absolutely. I'm going to, I'll bet on that talent all day. Fluid, fast. At the catch point, he's outstanding. And yeah, to your point, like, he's, I think, eight pounds lighter than Tyler Warren, and he's taller. So it's not like there's a, you know, humongous difference between these two guys in terms of weight. And Loveland's longer, too. He's longer. He's longer. arms. So yeah, there's a lot to like about Colston Loveland as an idea. It's just there's a little bit of doubt that creeps in that, hey, am I going to get him for 16, 17 games a year? I think that's totally fair. The arm length thing with Warren is really important to bring up for two reasons. One, when people

do the gronk stuff, which is stupid in and of itself when we're talking about all time transcendent players, go look at gronk's arm length. It's like 34 and a half. He's got like some of the longest arms have ever seen a tight end. When people say he was also a tackle, it's because he had the 34 inch arms. And the thing with Warren, this is the last thing I'll say about Warren. If we're going to have to live in a contested catch world because we're not a separator, you want those arms in a contested catch world. He's going to have to catch stuff a little closer to his body and some of those tight quarters plays. And he's shown an ability to do that, but it makes you a different sort of receiver than somebody like a Grankowski because of the arm

length. And the arm length leads to limitations as a blocker. So even if he's big and he's physical and strong, you still are talking about a limited ceiling because the arm length is a little bit lower. But with Loveland, I think that the length actually kind of changes the conversation a little bit in the way that Dane is talking about, Derek. I think it does. Like Loveland to me, I actually find him to be the higher floor player just because I think I like his length a little bit better. I think he's, we have more evidence that he can be like an inline Y blocker type. And again, if he adds five more pounds, I think we're going to be even cooking. I think his lower body strength is really good. Sometimes I think his upper body he can just get punched in the chest and he kind of falls off. Yeah. But again, he's he's such a young player. And this is actually why I think he is much different to me than a guy like Dalton Kincaid. If we want to say purely as receivers, there's some similarities there, I can see it. But Loveland, he broke out so much younger and he is still a very young prospect. And we've seen a lot more from him as a Walker where he can at least be competent there that I feel like the ceiling is higher than it ever was or probably will be with Kincaid. And then you still get.

at a lot of the explosive playability downfield. I think with the ball in his hands, he is more smooth than explosive or fast. But as a route runner and receiver, I actually think he is very good at getting down the seams and tearing away from guys on corners and stuff like that. That's why I said that Brock Bowers is a combination of those two. Because Loveland lacks the run-after catch physicality

and ability that a guy like Brock Bowers does. That's the thing that he's missing. But he made that play against Illinois Day and on that wheel where he's coming back to the ball in space and you watch some of the route running against Fresno State. Like, he's a very intriguing idea. Even if I do think that there's still enough little nitpicky things

where I don't think he would be a top 10 prospect in a lot of other drafts. Yeah, and I think that's fair. And I mean, my comp for Loveland was Zach Ertz. Like some of the tools are very similar. That's pretty good. Yeah.

I mean, but again, 12th overall, like, that's pretty rich to draft a player like this. And like, Tyler Warren, there's a good chance.

he goes, you know, the Jets at 7, that's a very possible, realistic landing spot for him. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it if one of the tackles is on the board. I just couldn't do it. Yeah. Well, and I mean, I think you might be secretly hoping they do, so he's not there at 10 because Chicago is definitely a possible landing spot as well.

And then, you know, the cults are interesting, you know, in theory, it makes sense, but are they really going to use one of these guys to their full potential to help the offense? I don't know. Do they get to 20, the 20s and a team like Denver, even though they added Evan Ingram? So these tight ends are really interesting where I understand why they would go early. I also understand why they could slip a little bit further than maybe mock drafts would suggest. The last thing I want to say about the tight ends, Dan, and I'm curious your thoughts on this. I think one of the refrains that we've heard over the course of the process is that you can pass on Gentie because running back is so deep in the.

this class. You can take a guy in the second round. In watching these two guys and then watching a guy like Terrence Ferguson, I don't think the gap between Colson Loveland and Terrace Ferguson is bigger than the gap between Ashton Gentie and Caleb Johnson. Yeah. I just don't. I feel like Ashen Genty is a significant tier above the rest of the running backs in a way that I don't know if Colson Loveland really is with the rest of the tight ends.

And the only reason I bring that up, Derek, is because I think it's been framed that way in the process pretty often over the last couple months. That was the other part of why I love that you brought this up about like how these guys have been pushed up the board. Again, these guys are to me, ideally you take them in the 20s and that's great. There to be like four or five other guys that I would take top 70 pretty comfortably. And it's like, okay, if I can skip one round on a position that we know typically has a longer runway and I can instead maybe take a pass rusher in the first round or something.

And then in the second, you know, at pick 55 I can go get my tight end. you're going to have a lot of good options in a lot of the similar buckets that guys like Loveland or Warren Phil. Like you can find the same archetypes. It's just these players are probably a little bit more of surefire products. But again, I don't think the difference is like that, that huge. All right. We're going to take a quick break.

And then we're going to come back with the other receiver that Dane firmly seems as a first round pick. All right. Let's talk about Matthew Golden. Dane. He's your 15th overall player. He is your second overall wide receiver. There are some.

complications to this evaluation. The production is not what you would typically see from a round one player. But I think that the tape and some of the flashes, you can get yourself there with a guy like Matthew Golden. So walk me through a little bit of your process with Golden specifically because obviously one year at Texas, one year of like huge production. What was your journey with him as you studied him over the last six months or so? Right. That context is important because Yeah, I started at Houston. He's a Houston kid. And he was highly recruited.

I mean, there were a lot of teams that wanted him out of high school. He decided to stay close to home, go to Houston. And then after two years, it was like, all right, I need to challenge myself a little bit more. So he transfers to Texas. And, you know, all you heard about was Isaiah Bond and how Texas wanted Bond to be the number one guy who Bond transferred in from Alabama. And they kind of forced it a lot. And they also had a lot of freshmen coming in that they really liked. And so Golden, he was part of the mix,

but it wasn't like he was force fed the ball or looked at as maybe the number one guy. But as we got deeper into the season, it became pretty clear. Golden was their best option. All through the playoffs, I think about the Arizona State game or some of these other games where it was Golden

that was kind of separating himself from the other receivers and helping that offense move up and down the field. He quickly gained the trust of Quinn Ewers. And so through the process, It's just kind of been like, all right, I like what I see here. And then he goes to combine runs a 4-2. Is he a 4-2 athlete? I don't see it on tape.

How much do you buy the conspiracy theory that it was mistimed? Because that's been a really popular thing over the last few weeks. I mean, scouts had him at 429, 430, 431. That's all a scouts had him. So, you know, I don't think that it's, there's much to it. But I will say that he doesn't play that speed on film. Now, I'm not worried. about his speed necessarily, but I'm not going to give him a little bit of a bump for being

a 4-2 athlete when I don't really see that on film. But I will say that what I love most about him, how synchronized he is with his feet, his hips, his eyes, and his route. So he can gain separation. He catches the ball really well away from his frame. You know, he can play inside, can play outside. He's just a really well-rounded receiver. and then who has okay size, not great size, okay size,

but has speed, has receiving ability. And his pro day workout was fantastic as well. So, you know, a guy that I think has just been throughout the process, ascending, getting better and better, and ended up as a mid first round pick for me. To me, you don't necessarily see the 429 speed all the time. Like if you saw 429, you'd be like, oh, he's like Rashid then. It's like he's not, he's good down the field,

he's not quite that. Where I think you see his testing is his 10-yard split, the 14-9. Those first, like, three steps out of his stance, dude, he is flying. He is eating up ground so fast. And I think because he's also pretty explosive out of the break, it just gets him on a DB's toes so fast. And like the defensive back is like, oh, shit. Like, I'm kind of in like, they're startled that he's on them so fast.

And I think it allows him to get open pretty consistently. So when I watched him, he gave me like, you know, what if a Margie? Cooper was like 10% smaller, which I know like we're kind of colored now by like Amari Cooper last year not being very good. But like Pico Mark Cooper was a very good player where explosive route runner, consistent route runner, not necessarily elite down the field, but good enough speed, could play a little bit of inside and outside. And then was a better ball winner than I think you would probably think like I think golden is a really good ball winner. So that's why that that leads me to the cop that I thought of while watching Arizona State game. There was a play where

I can't remember which play it was, but he came back to the ball on a vertical route. And I don't think he's this level of technician, but I'm also thinking about this player as an NFL guy rather than a prospect. And so maybe that is complicating things a little bit. He's digsy to me. Yeah.

And I think it's the vertical push and the ability to throttle down on some of those routes is very impressive. But it's the ball tracking and the ability to make contested catches down the field as a smaller player. that reminds me of Stefan Dix. And I think the best case scenario for him, Dane,

I could see a trajectory like that where maybe he's not the biggest player, but when you combine all the things he brings to the table and him playing bigger in some of those situations, he has to me like a Stefan Digg sort of ceiling. I mean, I'm just in my mind picturing like the Minnesota miracle. And like that's a play I could see gold in making, you know, like just catching the ball away from his frame,

through contact, breaking a tackle, you know, and then taking it to the house. So yeah, I mean, I think that makes, that makes perfect sense. He's, the first line in his, my report on him was average measurables, but he doesn't play small. And that's a key part of playing the position, regardless of what your height and weight says, how do you play? Do you play up to your measurables? Do you play bigger to your measurables? And 100% agree with what you're saying about the first three steps and how quickly he gets out there.

He had one of the best 10 yards splits in the, in this class, period. So I think that really that stands out. And so you see it on post and corners. You see it on, you know, quick comebacks. You see it on all these different routes that translates well to the next level. And that's why, you know, I ended up just, okay, the more you watched of him, the more later in the season, especially those playoff games, the more it was like, all right, this is a difference maker. This is a guy that the quarterback clearly trusts. He's getting open consistently, even though I think defenses are like realizing this is their best player. And so I'll put all that together.

And it's like, okay, I still think he has room to grow. And, you know, I got on the phone with him a couple weeks ago, just kind of one of my last, just kind of learn more about him type of deals. And this guy is extremely driven. Like he has a plan in place for, okay, when I got to Texas, this is what I wanted to do. When I get to the NFL, I'm going to do this, this and this. Like he's just very, that's the way he thinks about it. And so very excited to see where he lands because I think he's another, say McMillard,

say McMillan goes nine to the Saints, I still think even though I like the fit of McMillan better in Dallas, Golden, I think, would still be, you know, and maybe part of it is I think a lot of different receivers will complement CD, which is a complement to CD with how good he is. Exactly. All the different, you know, inside, outside, different ways he can win. But Golden, I think, would fit in Dallas as well,

just with his specific skill set. Because he can play outside. Even if he's a little bit smaller, he can play outside. I think that's the appeal to somebody like him. Golden for the Cowboys could be what they wanted the Brandon Cook's thing to be when they signed him. And that's not like a one for one, but just like what they do. Because he's another smaller player who can play outside. Who actually can go up and get the ball?

Yeah. The spot for me, just because I think that adding him with this skill set to the players they already have, him in Seattle to me is just like, I salivated that idea. Because I just think that they don't have that sort of player right now. And I think he rounds out their receiver room in a really nice way if he were to get to 18. Yeah. And it would be interesting to see if they would, you know, obviously you bring in Cooper Cup. You still have, you know, Jackson Smith and Jigba. Like, would they go in that direction and really kind of open up that offense? I'm sure Sam Darnold's hoping for it because, yeah, I agree.

That'd be a great fit. And then if he gets past 18, you know, if you're the bucks, you're going to think about it at 19. You know, the Steelers are going to have to think about that. That would make some sense. And then if he makes it to the Chargers, it's like, all right, Justin Herbert's going to be on the phone saying, pick this guy. because yeah, I think there's a lot of teams in that, you know, once we get past the midpoint of the first round, a lot of those teams make sense. Let's talk about two receivers you have just outside of that range day. And that's a mecca, Mecca and Luther Burden.

You have burden 27th overall. He's your wide receiver three. You have a buka 28th overall. He's your wide receiver four. Derek, what I love about this is you, I couldn't pick two players who are more different when it comes to, all right, with a mecca abuka, I know. immediately what I'm getting. Like there's no, no mystery. No imagination. There's no blurriness. I know immediately what I'm getting. Like, I just,

I couldn't stop thinking about Robert Woods when I was watching. I just couldn't. And it was the two jersey, but also just the way he's built. He wants to bring it as a blocker. More than some of these other guys, I'll say. I guess is how I would frame it. He was a little bit more want to than some of these other guys.

With burden, it's like, what am I supposed to do with this? Like, the traits are so intriguing. and you go back and you watch like the LSU game from 2023 and what he does with the ball in his hands and the stop start ability is just so dynamic. But he doesn't really do a lot that is translatable as a receiver. And so the fact that these two guys, Dane, are stacked up right after each other in your rankings is just so telling to me about this position and how many different types of guys and types of impacts you can look at in

an individual class. Well, and that's why like doing this from a general point of view is, kind of tough because if I was with a team like I would have a better idea of which receiver I'd want to go after. Just based off of are we going to chase the upside? Like do we have the wide receiver room the way it's currently

constructed to chase the upside of a guy like Luther Burden who brings some big play potential? Much more than Ibuka who Abuka is just a pro. Like we know what he is wrapped in clear wrapping paper. He's going to come to the NFL and be ready. I like that Robert

Woods comparison. You know, You hear Alman Rae St. Brown. You hear like, I don't necessarily see that just because I'm on Ross St. Brown just, I don't know, he gives you a little bit more big play potential where Abuka, I don't think is going to give you that. But he, you know what you're getting is. The word I come back to again. I just think of St. Brown is more sudden than Abuka is.

100%. He's a good athlete, not a great athlete talking about Abuka. But he's, he tracks the ball really well. He's physical. He's tough. another guy that can line up inside or outside. I actually like him best in like a Rishi Rice role. Like if you use him the way the chiefs use Rishi Rice,

I think that'd be perfect for him. So, you know, there's value in that obviously, but are you going to take that, you know, some people like a mid-first round, that's a little bit rich for me. But, you know, late first round, once we get to the 20s, like in my mock, I had him going to the commanders, which I think would be, you know,

start building that all buck-eye wide receiver depth charge. Yeah, I think that'd be a lot of fun. And someone that would compliment at the room really nicely and help Jay Daniels from day one, where with Luther Burden, it's a little bit more of an idea than a flushed out plan. And that's why it's just, you know, you like the idea of him,

but it's still, it's going to take a lot more work to get there. Let's do this exercise, Derek. Let's talk about a specific team. Let's talk about the Pittsburgh Steelers. And in this hypothetical, they're trading George Pickens. Okay.

You have one choice to put next to D.K. McCaff. And it's Luther Burden. or a Mecca Ibuka. Which one are you choosing and why? It's so obviously a me for a number of reasons. One, I think he's just a significantly better prospect. But to me, he fits what the Arthur Smith offense is supposed to be. And I think he has a little bit of inside outside flexibility, whereas like, you already

kind of have this weird niche-ish player with D.K. Metcalf where like his use cases are a little bit more obvious, but he can only be used in certain ways. Do I really want to add another player where it's a little bit complicated? how I'm supposed to use him in a guy like Burden. And the whole cell with burden is that you're going to have explosive playability. Okay, well, we already have DK.K. Metcalf. We need an adult in the room now. They're different types of explosive players.

I mean, the ability to stick the ball out to Burden. It gives you explosiveness in a very different way. So burden with the ball is really good at like generating explosives. And he might have that screen that pops for 60 yards. And Meghaegbuka, though, if you throw him screens, he is really good at finding 12. Like, he is really, really consistent. I find him as such an interesting ball carrier, Dane, because he looks very natural with the ball in his hands.

Like even on handoffs, like when you watch it, he's a very smooth runner. He's a very natural runner. But he's not a dynamic tackle breaker. And so every time he has the ball in his hands, I kind of want a little bit more. And I think that's partially driven by how natural he looks as a ball carrier,

if that makes sense. Well, and you see, if you watch his punt return tape as well, that's exactly what you see, where, you know, it looks very natural for him receiving the ball. ball and making a first move and all of that, but he's not going to break a lot of tackle.

He goes down at first contact a lot. Yes. Because I think his punt return average is like 5.4 yards per. So he gives you that versatility. He can do that, but he's not going to be dynamic in that respect. And yeah, I agree. You see that with him with a ball in his hands, but he does look natural at it. So he can make the first man miss.

He's just not necessarily going to run through contact consistently. So, you know, you think about all the receivers that have gone. through Ohio State over the years and it's just been a factory over there. And like, Emeka Abuka can, even though he's a five star, he was highly recruited, he can, he probably can't say he was ever the best receiver on his own team. And that's kind of crazy because he was in Columbus for four years. But you think about, you know, the first year, Garrett Wilson, the second year or the next two years, Marvin Harrison Jr.

And then this past year, Jeremiah Smith. So even though he was never the guy, he still is Ohio State's all-time leading receiver in terms of catches. I mean, the production was terrific. Even last year when he's fighting through an injury. So, you know, I think he's very quarterback friendly. And that's that, that's kind of like the main takeaway with Ibuka, just very quarterback friendly. And a lot of teams could use that. It's funny when you mentioned that because you throw him on Washington. You could say the same thing about Terry McCourt. And it was like an overlooked guy in Ohio State and then was a much better pro. And so having two guys that were never the best receiver on their

own college team as your legitimate one and two options in a passing offense is actually pretty funny. Sometimes that's okay. Justin Jefferson wasn't better than Jamar Chase. That's okay. That's very okay. The last thing I want to say about burden, Derek, when I watch burden, I think that I don't know if I like him as much as I liked either one of these prospects, although I think in hindsight, we talk about Brandon and I, Yucle a little bit differently because of what he's turned into. But these guys who are kind of raw with the route running, but you can see had their movement skills and you try to translate it or project it moving forward. Iuke and Brian Thomas to me are players like this.

I think Brian Thomas was so slippery and his release game was so good even though it wasn't refined, but he was a hard player to get hands on. I think that that was so intriguing to me about him last year, along with the big playability. But Iyuk, he was seen as more of like a gimmick player coming into the league and like a manufactured touch guy. But because the movement skills are so pronounced with a. a little bit more refinement and a little bit more development, we've seen what he's turned into. So I think some of these guys where you watch it happen,

and you think I don't really know what he is, and I think I want a little bit more tools. We've seen success stories with those sorts of players before. And I think you could make an argument that Luther Bird might fall into a somewhat similar bucket. Ayuk is a pretty good comp for a number of reasons. One, it's like, yeah, Ayuk was not a... Iyook was a punt returner who you hoped would be something better in the NFL.

And then he landed with Shanahan and after a year in the doghouse, he was. I think it's also a good comparison too because I really did not like Brandon Ayyuk because I just, I didn't understand what he was supposed to be. It was just this bundle of like, okay, he's cool with the ball and his hands. And I wonder if we're doing that again. That's the thing, Dan, is I wonder if we're doing that again. We might be. But like I'm okay with, I think my thing is I'm okay with missing on a player like that. Like I think we are all going to miss on certain players.

me, the player that like he's cool with the ball in his hands and that's it, I'm okay with missing. Like, Dan, you had him what at 27th on your board? Yeah. Yeah. If I had a full board, he'd probably be closer to like 77th for me. This is just a player that I really struggle with in terms of him getting off press, him dealing with contact. What we see as a route runner right now is I think tough, especially on the outside.

And then I didn't love his ball tracking ability. You get one or two every now and then plays where he can go up for the ball and it looks really good. but I thought on a down to down basis it was not something I loved. So this is just the player that I've really struggled with as far as the past catchers go. No, and I struggled with him too

because his 2023 showed a more, a more realized player necessarily than when we saw on the 2024 tape. And so again, there's a leap of faith here, no doubt. Are you going to chase the upside of what he can bring to you? Or are you going to go with the guy where you know exactly what you're getting

with the Mecca, Buka, but maybe doesn't have the ceiling. So, you know, and again, it depends on, I think, what team you're drafting for, what are you bringing to your wide receiver depth chart, all those good things. But, yeah, there's a realistic scenario where Luther Burden falls out of the first round. And we're talking about, okay, you know, if you're the Titans in round two, do you do you go that direction? Do you, you know, there's a lot of teams in that early, you know, the Patriots, you know,

is that a direction they should go? There's a very realistic scenario where that's where we're talking about. let's talk about guys that if you pass on some of these players in the first round might be available in the second round. And I want to talk about them kind of side by side, two receivers and two tight ends. The receivers are easy because they played at the same school. The tight ends maybe a little bit harder. Dana, if you were comparing a guy like Mason Taylor from LSU, who you have at 33 overall and somebody like Elijah Arroyo, who you have 41st overall. And you were a team that, let's say, was picking 10th, wanted a tight end, passed on that tight end and had two early second round picks.

how would you stack up these two players and what strengths and weaknesses they were bringing to the table? I love Mason Taylor. And like he's just, he's very, a very useful player. I think you,

you as a blocker, as a receiver, and he did that the moment he showed up in Baton Rouge. I mean, as a freshman, he was making some big plays for that team.

And so I think a guy who's a good athlete, he's fluid for his size, very strong hands, comfortable through the catch. point. His movements are really good as a blocker so he can get out on the perimeter and help you out there. He's got a little bit after the catch. So there's just a lot of things that I think he offers that I don't think he'll ever be a star in the league necessarily, but I feel like, okay, he's going to help us win games because he's reliable. I know exactly what I'm getting.

The ball skills, the competitiveness are terrific. So I comp them to kind of like a, there's some similarities like a Hunter Henry there. Like, you know, I don't think he has more juice in Hunter Henry though. What did Hunter Henry run? Yeah, I think he does. I mean, Hunter Henry was, yeah, you might have been right. Mason Taylor was what, 4, 6, 8? Yeah, and which is pretty good. I mean, and he has a little more pop than somebody like those more reliable tight ends do. And that's why he's sort of intriguing to me. No doubt. And he's still young. He's a three year junior when he came out. I mean, he's a loose mover for a size. Like, there's just, and he wasn't really a central part of that LSU offense. Like, they didn't really live through him. But yet, he still is the most prolific tight end in LSU history. So like in the red zone,

they barely featured him. He had two touchdowns this past year, which, you know, is the fault of the offense more so than the tight end. Tray McBride had won and he's the highest paid tight end in the NFL now. So there you go. Exactly.

Yeah. No, I think Mason Taylor, like if the Eagles cared about the tight end position in the first round, I think that'd make a lot of sense at 32. But I'd be shocked if how he drafted a tight end in the first round. but once we get to the second round, I think, you know, if the Jets,

you know, we mentioned them as a Tyler Warren potential there in the top 10. If they go Armand Membu at 7, come back in the second round and get Mason Taylor, I think that's a home run. I love you leaning into the framing because it's exactly what we're doing here. If you waited on these guys in the first, what do the guys look like in the second? And that's a perfect scenario, perfect example.

How would you compare an Arroyo from Miami to Mason Taylor, Derek, when you watch both of these guys? Yeah, kind of like Dan was saying, Taylor is a little bit more, feel like I know what I'm getting when I open the box. Taylor, I think, is a really consistent route runner. The way that he'll go up and high point the ball to me is actually really impressive. And he's comfortable taking a shot over the middle, which if you're tied in, you better get used to it. And he's a little bit of a younger player with a little bit more of a production profile.

So he, to me, feels like you know what you're getting. Arroyo, I don't mean this in saying I don't like the player, but he was probably the most confusing prospect for me to get my head around in terms of the way I thought about him. because when you watch him, he is so explosive. His first handful of steps when he gets the ball or running down the scene, whatever it is, incredibly explosive. Some of his brakes look incredible. He's got size.

He's got length. He's got all this stuff every now and then you see him go up for the ball. And it's like, man, that is super impressive. He just doesn't have good feel to the position for me. Like his ability to sit down in zones is kind of awkward. I don't think he does a good job of it. I think sometimes his ability to track the ball over the middle. can run a little bit hot and cold.

And I think that makes sense for a player who was pretty much not on the field up until this year. Like he's a guy who this clearly took a little bit of time. So Arroyo, I think to me is the classic case of, you know, when we talk about tight ends on day two, it's like, ah, sometimes just take the guy who's incredibly talented and give it two years and see what happens. That to me is more Arroyo, whereas like Taylor, you can get 500 snaps out of him immediately, I think. That's fair. I mean, Arroyo is going to take some time. There's no doubt about that.

And there was a knee injury his second year. So I think that was a major factor why his development was stunted a little bit. But yeah, I mean, he's some of the explosiveness, explosive plays he put on film this year were just fun to watch. I mean, he led all FBS tight ends in terms of yak per reception this year, 9.1, which is crazy for a tight end. 34.3% of his catches this past year went for 20 plus yards. So, you know, we're talking better than a third of his catches are explosive 20-yard gains. And to put that in the context, Brock Bowers was 23.2% of his catches. So, you know, he will create those big plays, whether it's just using speed down the seam or, I mean, really, that's kind of his bread and butter is whether it's catch and run or tracking the ball downfield.

He catches the ball really well, too. Like, you don't see a lot of drops on his film. So it's like the idea. And the other part, too, is the senior ball. Nobody could cover him at the senior bowl. His explosiveness at every level of the field during practice was like, all right, this guy is really, really good. The best tight end on the field. So you package all that together and you're like, all right, there's something here.

But I think to your point, it's going to take a little bit of time. When we talk about tight ends, maybe needing time to really fully develop at the NFL level, Arroyo is a good example of that. And that's why, like, he flashes talent to be, you know, like a top 40 guy. but because it's going to take some time, that's why I understand why teams maybe wait a little bit on a player like this. And the last thing I'll say that actually I would be willing to give him the time, he really does try as a blocker.

Like as a pass blocker, I thought he actually did a good job. And then as a run blocker, it's a little bit hit or miss because he's, you know, he's kind of lanky. He's a little bit of an awkward mover sometimes. But when he connects,

he can actually kick some ass. And so the fact that he at least has that, you know, clears that bar if he really is trying as a blocker. it does help me be like, okay, this guy as a developmental piece does make some more sense. All right. Let's compare it to receivers here who happens to play at the same school and are different in every conceivable way.

I think whether you prefer Jalen O'L or Jaden Higgins says a lot about you as a person. Like if I were just talking to a football analyst and I was like, which one of these guys do you like better? I think it would be such a telling answer, Derek, depending on where somebody landed with that. So who do you think I like more? I think the profile would say that you like Jaden Higgins more. But I think there are elements of Higgins's game that frustrate you to the point that you actually like Jail and Noel more. I do.

When I went in to watch them, I was like, okay, well, one guy's got the size and the idea is that he can make some contested catches. And he does do that. So I was like, I'll probably end up liking that guy a little bit more. But when I watched Higgins, even though I think he does do a good. job of making those contested catches and I think he's generally smooth in that sense. He gets hung up a lot against contact, man, whether it's press, top of his break, kind of like just before the catch point. Like he just gets, it feels like the DB has control of the rep a little bit too often for

me for a big guy especially and that can rub me the wrong way. Whereas then I watched Noel, he's really good, dude. Like he's just incredibly quick. Awesome, awesome football player. Dude, he's so good. Like, I, the smaller guys, you really got to sell me. But Noel did. Like, when I was watching him is just, he's a very quick and clean route runner.

Like some of the speedouts he was running were just, I mean, he's got five yards of separation immediately. And then to me would actually shock me the most and sold me. You imagine Higgins is like, oh, he's the big guy. He can go make the catch radius stuff. I think Noel's catch radius is better. Like, he's digging stuff off the turf. He can go up for a little guy. He was making, like, catches on like, you know, a post route was underthrown and he's going up

and he's basket catching it, protecting the ball from the DB. I'm like, this guy just knows how to play, and he's fast as hell. Like, I really liked Noel more than I really thought I was going to. Dan, I need you to throw some cold water on me with Jayla, Noel, please. Because when I went back and I watched him, I absolutely loved him. And there were probably five or six moments when you combine like the Kansas game, the central Florida game, the place he made at the end of the Central Florida game to essentially win them that game.

Like, he just brought it in the biggest. moment in a wonky game, like to pick six, just all over the place. And he makes two huge plays in the final drive for them to win that game. But there were five or six moments when watching him where I had like guttural reactions where I was like, oh my God, when it's the second and third level separation when he's already on the move and he's putting guys just in a blender on posts, on post corners. Like he's so smooth, but he's also incredibly explosive Jaila Noel. And like Derek said, I actually think he's better and more physical at the catch point than somebody with his physical frame you might think is.

I loved everything about him. I think he's my compared to consensus, probably my favorite receiver that I watched among this group. No, I love that. And look, I took a lot of heat a couple months ago when I said he was a top five receiver in this class. But look, he is. I firmly believe that. Yeah. And he's one of my favorite players in this draft.

He is like I think his profile is pretty similar to Christian Kirk when he was coming out as a prospect. He's a souped up Christian Kirk. It's exactly what I saw when I watched him. Exactly. And so, you know, a guy that can be a vertical slot, but he can also win underneath. He can also, you know, disengage from defenders in different ways because he is physical. He is quick. He is fast. And those three things are all different that not every receiver has. So is he, I don't, he's not really a. true tackle breaker necessarily, but I think he does have that pull away gear, a lot of big plays on his film. Like, over the last two years.

Easy acceleration. Just such easy acceleration. And the ball skills are terrific. So it's not, I, like, his catch radius is, it's not necessarily huge because of his size. It's just, you know, his size is what it is. There's no changing that. But I think he does catch the ball really well away from his body. So it doesn't matter if it's outside of his frame.

he can come down with that. Now, in the NFL, it will be a little bit tougher when it's tighter coverage. Defensive backs are a little better with understanding the timing and how to take away some of those balls that are, you know, if a receiver is not blocking the defender with his body, it can be a little bit tougher at the catch point. And so there's a little bit of that worry baked into this, just because there might be, you know, the size advantage won't be there at all. but we're still talking about a player that should go, you know, like I, we talked about this on a previous podcast,

but I called him the, uh, Mconki Mea Culpa for the Patriots. Like if you go Will Campbell at four, okay, this is your Mekonki Mayaculpa. Like, you know,

he's not, he might be really good in the slot, but he can also play outside. I mean, you can play him across the formation. There's no reason why not. And, you know,

he could be that type of weapon that you're looking for for Drake May. One of the reasons I love J-1-N-O-L, Derek, is just because to me it's just so clear. Like, there's just... Sorry, by the way, it's, it's, it's, it's null. I do it too. Joe and Noel. All right. Yes, I do it too. So one of the reasons, Derek, that I love J-O-N-N-Nole is because to me, it's just very clear. Like, it's clear what he is, and it's clear what he isn't. And that's what I like about him is just that if you use him as a vertical slot player, even for a team like Houston, right? Christian Kirk's a one-year thing. If you like that, skill set and you want it for the next five years, this is somebody that can bring that to you.

And that's why I really like Jalenol. The difficulty with me and Jaden Higgins, Derek, is that I don't know what he is. And I struggle with what he is because I'm with you. You look at the package he's coming in and we're going to, he's been kind of pumped up as this, you know, contested catch guy. And he can make some of them. But if you watch the contested catches, they're all on his back hip. He struggles to work back through contact. He's not a physical player for somebody who's so big, but he's dynamic for somebody who's so big. I honestly think, Derek,

some of my favorite Jaden Higgins moments that I watched on tape are like slants. They're like short area quickness examples. And that's not necessarily something you would attribute to somebody with Jaden Higgins' physical profile. And so that's why I struggled a little bit more with him because I'm 100% with you. He gets stuck at the top of routes way too,

often for me. I think that he gets, he like kind of seeks out contact, but not in a good way. And I think that's what made me struggle with Jaden Higgins. And so I think that the path through for him, I get talking yourself into that because the package of traits, there's a lot there. But I think it's a lot more murky to me with Jaden Higgins than it is with Jalen No. That's kind of where I come down with two. And I think part of the issue too is that the players that Higgins reminds me of the most our players like I'm typically not as high on. He there's a lot of Michael Pittman to me to his game like a slightly worse version of that. That's actually a really good comparison. We talk about the short area quickness in a larger frame. Right. Exactly. That's what it is.

And a guy who like can be an outside receiver, but realistically actually does a lot of his better work from the slot because he can access some of that quickness and I think that's what Higgins should be by by the way. I think that he is like a bigger slot player in the best case scenario. Yes. He's something like, you know, and Muhammad's the new at certain points in his career was. like this where he was a little bit of a bigger slot player like he that i think to me if things go really well for him is what it's going to look like but i think i generally agree that even though he's a smooth operator for that size in terms of the movement skills i don't think he's that dynamic with the ball in his hands and then just some of the catch radius stuff attacking the ball is just

not quite as put together as i would like for a player in that package so he to me is a guy who i think on the consensus board it's like higgins is at you know 50 something and Noel is at 70 something, I would have them flipped. I think Noel is to me a player who I would be more comfortable in the 50s and then. That is sizes the bullshit. It is.

I'm usually the sizes, but. No, I mean, I mean, Noel to me, he's my 42nd player overall, where Higgins,

I'm still, I like Higgins because of a lot of the things that, you mentioned, I think he's a little more physical than maybe what you guys saw. And that's, I wrote, the guy that I reminded me of,

of when watching his Michigan tape was Nico Collins. When he was coming out, like not to Houston Texans, Nico Collins that were watching now, but watching him in Michigan, I thought there were some similarities there in terms of tracking the football catch point, being a bigger receiver,

but having some, you know, decent speed with some quickness. And there were flashes of physicality. Now, not necessarily to the level you want, but at least some of it that made me say, okay,

there's more here. But, you know, I agree. I mean, Higgins, if I'm choosing between the two, it's null all day. But Higgins, I still think there's something there that, all right, I, you know, maybe he's not a top 40 guy, but for a team looking for a big presence with size, decent speed, he jumped really well. And you can tell he was a former basketball player, maybe with some of that finesse that he does play with, because he was late to football, focused on basketball mostly. And that's why, you know, he started out at the FCS level. He was at Eastern Kentucky, goes to Iowa State.

in the last two years he was just nothing but productive. So, I mean, there's a lot of things about his production, about his traits that say, there's something there. This is going to work at the next level. But yeah, I think there's enough there that makes you kind of question exactly what's the best role to use him in.

And I think that's where the gap is with me and some of the other people who like him is that it's just less clear to me. It's just murkier to me in a way that gives me a little bit of pause. You sang the basketball thing, and I wrote this down when I was talking about, McMillan, and I think it applies to this. When I watch McMillan, I see a volleyball player in ways both good and bad.

And when I watch Jaden Higgins, I see a basketball player in ways both good and bad. I think that totally tracks that those are the backgrounds for those players respectively. And again, I think it's why I want like a pinch more physicality from both of them, Dan. He didn't even play football as a sophomore in high school because he wanted to focus on basketball. You know, and he played a small school, private school in Florida. Like it was something where football was, um, you know, more of he had to get on board with. And so even though, like, I think he, he gradually got better every single year in college,

the two years at Eastern Kentucky, the two years at Iowa State, and you feel like he's not done growing, there's at least a little bit of doubt in there because he does play like a basketball player more so than a rugged football player. It's funny to me, Derek, that you like Keon Coleman so much more than you like Jaden Higgins, because I do think that there are shades of one another and watching them play. I don't necessarily disagree with that. And I was probably too high on Keon Coleman. I think the difference for me is Keon Coleman was way more explosive with the ball in his hands.

Like I think he really had something to wear not like tear away for 60 yards type of explosive, the Odo Beckham stuff. But just like if you give him a sliver of space that is supposed to earn five yards, he's going to make one guy miss and get 12. Like with Higgins, I just don't see quite as much of that. And I think I also, even though Coleman's ability to go up for the ball could, run hot and cold, I do think that there were better flashes of physicality and his ability to actually do it. All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then we're going to get back and talk about, I don't know, a few more guys from this group because there's just so much to dig into.

All right, Dan, you have three guys at receiver that you have kind of all lump together and the grade that you have for them in the beast is second slash third round. And that's Jalen Royals, Trey Harris and Jack Besh. again, I can't imagine two more different players than like Trey Harris and Jack Mesh in terms of like what they're bringing to the table. And so what you want out of this group, I think is really telling. Let's just go through them individually. When you were watching Jalen Royals and just trying to put together his profile,

what stood out to you? What were the strengths that you think he's bringing to the table? And like what archetype of player are we talking about with somebody like Jalen Royals? Yeah, six foot, 205, good speed, 4-4, low 4-4s in the speed. So, you know, he can be that catch and go guy. You want to, you know, feed him those slants and screens. You know, he can make guys miss. And he doesn't necessarily jump off the film as like, oh, it's just instant speed going to make you miss.

But kind of like we were talking about with Ibuka, like he just is a very natural with the ball in his hands. Except I think Royals is probably a little bit better at forcing some of those mistackles and playing through contact. This past year, he missed basically the whole second half of the year because he had a foot injury. and that kind of, you know, it was a big question mark, but he goes to the Senior Bowl and did a really nice job there, you know, good ball skills. I wish he was a little bit better catching the ball through traffic. Some of those crowded catch point windows are tough. And I think just learning how to uncover from man coverage using a more diverse route tree

is something he'll need to get better at the next level. But I think he could be a or grow into being a solid number two receiver option for an offense. for me right now he is a little bit more gadget player than receiver, which is... Jalen Royals we're talking about. Yeah, Jalen Royals, which I think honestly at the range that he's probably going to get drafted in is more palatable to me than like when we were talking about Luther Burden where you potentially have to take him in the first round. Royals to me, some of his best work is when he gets the ball in his hands, he's a really powerful

guy at 205 and then you can see some of the explosive speed. like he is a guy who, you know, kind of like I was talking about, could take a ball and just 50 yards. He's gone. He's down the field. I do think he has some of that. As a receiver right now, some of his route running is a little bit up and down to me. I think getting in and out of breaks can be a little bit iffy. I really don't love the way that he gets off of press coverage. But combining that entire package, he kind of reminds me a little bit of the way that the Packers have used Jaden Reed. And Reed is a little bit smaller, but just in terms of like the role that they have a little bit of what they can do with the ball in their hands.

I think that is kind of what you're looking for in a player like Jalen Royals, which if you take that in the third round, I think you're actually probably pretty happy with that. To your point, no college receiver had more catches of 50 plus yards the last two years than Royals. He had 10 of them. So, I mean, that tracks with what you're saying. And I'm sure a guy that's right in that conversation is Trey Harris from Ole Miss when we're talking about explosive plays and explosive players.

Yeah. Dane, this is the type of guy that I'm just going to salivate over, and we're going to look at a player like this. And I think it's going to be a can't whoa question, right? He wasn't asked to do that much at Ole Miss. But what he was asked to do, he was really fucking good at it. He was really, really good at it. And it was a limited route tree.

But you look at him in that limited route tree. And I think the stop startability in some of those vertical routes is pretty good. I think if I was trying to extrapolate some of that. of the movement skills to a more diverse route tree. I can get there with a guy like Trey Harris. I think he plays faster than his 40 times is. I think he's more explosive than that time. But again, we haven't seen him do a variety of things because that's not how Trey Harris was used at Ole Miss. So you're having to project some of the usage things that he's probably going to have to do in the league if he's taken in the second or third round. But I think

that how dynamic the examples we have are leads me to believe in a guy like Trey Harris in this range of the draft. Dan, really quickly, how similar did everything Robert just said? And then what you watched of this player, I think it was last year, how similar does this feel to like Cedric Tillman coming out of Tennessee? Right. Where we're getting a lot of slants, curls, and then a post or vertical mixed in. Like, yeah, like it's a lot of linear routes.

And I think he has more juice than Cedric Tillman, though. I love Cedlund, so I don't know. He is a very good athlete. Yeah, I mean, I guess I could, because I agree with you. I think he is, so he ran a 454 talking about Trey Harris. He ran a 454 40-yard dash, which is obviously not great. But I think his stride speed is just a little bit better than that. Just the way.

And he has very clean, like, gear down and his ability to transition. So you like that for a guy that. is, you know, six, two and a half, two and five pounds. I think the best thing that he does is just the hand eye coordination and how he finishes. He will finish through contact. He has, he's better after the catch than you would expect for a guy that's maybe an average speed type of guy. He's a very controlled athlete.

So maybe not truly explosive, but very controlled. So give me a controlled athlete with dependable ball skills. You know, I think at the very least you could have a possession type of target here. And then anything else he gives you after the catch is, you know, you're in good shape. But he's got injuries the last two years. That's definitely a factor in why maybe he was a little bit higher. And then just, yeah, the idea of transitioning to a more of a pro-style route tree and what he'll be asked to do in the NFL, there's projection involved with him. So it muddies it a little bit.

And that's why we're probably going to, you're probably going to get him between picks 40 and 75 somewhere as opposed to, being a top 40 pick where the production might suggest he should go. But yeah, he's a really intriguing player. Do you like him, Derek? I don't hate him, but I'm probably more like neutral than anything. I do love some of the explosive ability. Like when he really gets to starts to stride out, I think it's pretty impressive. Every now and then you see really impressive ball skills.

For me, where I got hung up a little bit is I think on some of the tighter breaking routes, your digs, your curls, your comebacks, it's a little bit hit or miss. I think if you get hands on him a little bit, he can really slow down. And then for a guy who is bigger and has the explosive strides, if you kind of yank at him when he's trying to run like a go ball or something, he doesn't have as much explosive finish through that contact to stack and separate as I would have liked. You know, like, D.K. Metcalf is incredible at that. It's his one calling card. I just don't quite see like any of that level ability with him.

So he's a more, I see more of the explosive ability when he like, honestly, some of his screen work was phenomenal. Like he can, you know, when you're at a dead stop and catch the screen, he is those first two steps. He is moving and can make a guy miss. So that was really where I was more impressed with him. But Trey Harris might also have my favorite nugget in the beast how he was, he's mostly a basketball player in high school and, but he also played quarterback. And he quit football to focus on basketball, but his go-to receiver convinced him to come back to, because he needed a quarterback. And that go-to receiver was Malik neighbors. So, You know, that offense was pretty good in high school.

But, yeah, he was, Trey Harris was even a quarterback when he went to Louisiana Tech and, you know, kind of made that transition to receiver once he got to Louisiana Tech. Then he ended up transferring to Ole Miss for the last two years. So very much an unpolished receiver in terms of just learning the position. And I think he can get there. It just might take a little bit of time.

Talk about unpolished with Trey Harris. The guy you have ranked directly behind Trey Harris. has every single club in his bag, and that is Jack Besh from TCU. A really interesting player because he played a decent amount outside of TCU. Derek, to me, he screams like a slot zone beating option in the NFL. And I think that I've seen, like, Juju Smith-Schuster

thrown around with somebody like him where he's not an overwhelming athlete, but I think that the refinement to his game, the route running, and just his feel overall, I think that Jack Besh absolutely has a very defamation, find robust role within the right sort of offense. It's somewhere like a juju or like a Josh Palmer. And I think he's probably not quite as like as strong at the catch point as Palmer can be.

But a guy who is should be more of your big slot. And then if you need to put him outside in certain sets or two receiver sets, you absolutely can do that. Besh was he's a player who grew on me. When I watched, the first game I watched was the SMU game. The first half was not good to me. I was really not interested in what I was going on there. But then the more I watched, it was like, okay, he really does have a bunch of different releases.

He's pretty explosive for a guy who is that size, especially, you know, both at the line, but at a lot of his breaks where he, especially if he's running some of those dig routes, like those were some of my favorites from him. I thought he did a really good job on. He to me is between the size, some of that explosive ability, how well he was sitting in some of these zones, how well he was finding the ball, like whether it was, you know, at his knees, whether it's like kind of just outside of his frame. I thought he did a good job at that.

So I don't think he's that dynamic with the ball. And I don't think he's going to run away from people that much. But he to me is like if he's your third best pass catcher and gives you a little bit as a blocker, yeah, man, that's a nice piece to have. Dan, you had 40 times for your top 26 receivers in the beast. Except for Jack Bessch's 40 time is noticeably missing from all of the other information. that you have in the draft guide. I think there might be a little something to that.

Yeah, quicker than fast. You know, that's just, that's the type of player that he is. And he's a good size. I mean, he's 215 pounds. He's a tight end. Yeah, exactly. And so, but the short area of quickness is there.

And that shows in the three cone. He has a 6-8-4-3-cone, which is pretty impressive at that size. But, yeah, I mean, nobody ran more slants in college football last year than Jack Besh. That's a fact. And so that's just, that's, that's the strength of his game. He's very smooth, physical, strong.

I do like some of the gear change that he shows as a route runner. So I, and I think there's savviness to his game. Like, watching him live at the senior bowl, you get vibes of Puka Nukua. And it's not an apples to apples comparison necessarily, but you get those types of vibes with some of the, okay, well, he doesn't just look faster than everybody else. but he's very, I don't know, savvy in the way he moves, physical. He will go up and get the football. There's a lot of things I like about Besh as probably a slot target that you're going to use

underneath routes, possession target. But there's a little bit more to him than just that as well. I love the Nekua pull because Nekua is not a separator. He's not that good of a route runner. What his superpower and why he's able to be, you know, quote, open as much as he is, as he throws guys off and really pushes at the route break better than almost anybody in the league. And I do see some of that with Jack Besh where like he understands how to use his arms, his size to really just get that half a foot of separation to where it's like, okay, I get access to the ball first and you don't. And I do think Besh has that quality.

And he doesn't drop the ball. I mean, it's just supreme confidence at the catch point where I am going, exactly what you're saying. I'm going to get the ball and not you and I'm going to finish. And so that competitiveness along with just the urgency that he plays with is it really stands out and makes you, like even if you don't love the player, you appreciate the player. Derek, I was running through teams just because I was just curious about fit and where his skill set might make sense. The one that is just so frustrating to me is that like if he was there in the third round and the Titans had a third round pick, it would just immediate. That's what they need. It's just exactly what they need.

And the fact that they don't have that pick is brutal. Let me try this one on and let's see how you feel. What if he goes to the Jags in the early third round? And you pair him with Brian Thomas and Diami Brown. And he can be like their facsimile of Chris Godwin, basically. I really like that a lot, actually. That is a good, just a bigger slot guy who, again, can play outside for you a little bit. Really, okay, actually, that's a good fit.

I was also thinking, too, when you were saying that the Bengals still need a slot receiver who can do anything for them. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I was going through them. And I think Yoshavis was good enough last year that like it's hard to justify a receiver in the top 100. I guess when you have so many other needs. It's so funny that you say that because I had the exact same thought where I was like, oh, we'll throw Jack Best on the Bengals.

They need a slot receiver now. But like I think Yoshavas was good enough as the number three last year. And they brought a sickie back where it's just hard for me to justify another pass catcher for Cincinnati given everything else they need. It's a good point. Maybe if the defense was at least average, you could live with it. Well, in my mock draft, I had the Panthers going that direction. And, you know, obviously.

Oh, interesting. Okay. That's good too. You know, kind of, but that's the, I'm thinking about helping the quarterback. And I think a guy like that is going to help Bryce Young and help that offense. Yeah. Let's run through a couple more dates, you guys. Harold Fanon, Dane is your 82nd overall player.

If you guys want to go hear us talk about Harold Fanon, we talked about him at length on our most polarizing players show. that conversation you can hear over there. Two receivers that you have, again, stacked up right next to each other. Derek, I'm curious which of these two guys you prefer. And that's Eelik, I.O. Manor from Stanford and Kyle Williams from Washington State. Dan, you have Iommanner as 90th overall, your wide receiver 11. You have Kyle Williams at 91st overall, your wide receiver 12.

Between these two guys, Derek, Iow Manor and Kyle Williams, who do you prefer and why? This is an archetype breaking class for me because you have. you would look at them. You know, Iyo Manor. I love this so much because I knew you were going to do this again. 6-2-206. You'd be like, okay, that's right up my alley. Where's Kyle Williams, 511, 190?

It's like, ah, you really got to prove something to me. And then I watch Iio Manor. He's a pretty good mover. Like, he is explosive. And I think you see moments as a route runner where he does a good job of knowing how to step on a DB's toes and cross face and get explosive and really separate that way. His build-up speed is solid so you can threaten downfield. his ball skills are not NFL quality.

It is really, really rough to watch to me. It's not even just like his ability to, you know, two hands on the ball and snatch it. There are certain instances where he does just drop that. He just looks uncomfortable trying to find the ball at certain times. And that really bothers me. I just don't know how fixable that is.

So I really struggled with I.O. Manor as a player. You have issues with the receivers who can't receive the ball? Yes, I really do struggle with that. That's why, for as much as I love, even, you know, for his, you know, as good as D.K. Metcalf is a certain thing. He struggles with that sometimes. And that's why I struggle with him. And then Kyle Williams, I swear I mean this endearingly. He is the most wide receiver, wide receiver in this class where he is. That's why everyone loves him. Yes. He, I think the first note I had, I watched the Boise State game. It's the 10th player of the game or something like that. And he's like run blocking, chipping with the DV at the end of the route. He just smacks him on the side of the helmet. I'm like, All right, this dude is clearly a little bit different. And then you watch him, you know, really as a route runner, he's incredibly quick. I really like his buildup speed.

Some of his route running is fantastic. Like the way that he was setting out some of those outrout, some of his comeback routes, I really enjoyed. I didn't love some of his like ability to finish. Like it seemed like he was giving up on some plays and some routes at the catch point where if it was going to be contested, he was just like, I'm good. I'll get it next play. So in that sense, he really is the wide receiver's one. wide receiver, but I think he is explosive enough that I actually sold myself that if,

if things go well enough, he could be like what Darnel Mooney is, you know, and has been for the Falcons. Like, I can absolutely see that vision for him. So here's why I think that Kyle Williams, to me, is a more intriguing player than somebody like Darno Mooney Dayne. This is why, like, me and when I come to the process and how, it's so interesting because you have these guys painted in certain ways. And when I turned on the Kyle Williams tape, I anticipated seeing this kind of like route technician because of everything that I'd heard about with him at the senior bowl and the release packages and everything. And you do see some of that. He is a refined route runner. That's all there. I was shocked, like genuinely shocked at how explosive he was with the ball

with his hands. Because that is not something that I'd really heard because every other person I'd heard talk about him was talking about the releases and the route running and everything else. So when I watched that element of Kyle Williams's game where you see the refinement as a route runner and you combine it with real explosiveness with the ball in his hands. My landing spot is, what am I missing here? Like, what am I missing here? Like, why am I not supposed to like this guy? And that's kind of where I landed with Kyle Williams.

And I'll just be the 100th log on the fire of everybody who has said this seemingly in NFL media over the last month. And I think it's, you know, the size. Obviously, he's not a bigger player. And sizes, all of you. Yeah, that's never stopped Robert with their. receivers. Right, exactly. That, I mean, that is obviously the first thing that, you know, if you're going to play a devil's advocate. And you, he ran really well at the combine and then got hurt,

was missed the pro day. And so injury stuff. I mean, it's one of the reasons he's been on so many 30 visits teams trying to figure him out. Because I, yeah, I think the, the flashes. And I mean, he played well pretty consistently, more consistently this year than he did in previous years. And so he was kind of like a late burn where it's like, all right, I, coming into the year, year pretty firmly, a PFA prospect, but then, all right, you check in on him in October. And it's like, all right, he's playing better. He's looking better. And then by the time we get to December, it's like, all right, we have a prospect here.

Like, he is a draftable player all day. And then, you know, you go further into the process, senior bowl combine. It's like, all right, yeah, let's, I'm kind of running out of reasons why he shouldn't be bumped higher and higher ahead of this guy ahead of this guy. So, you know, it's, it's very different perspective. like when I'm doing this year round and I have a idea of who a player is and then he starts to play

better and better compared to coming in at the end like this where you just have a, you still have a framing of who he is based on what you've heard. You know, we can't do this in a vacuum. But then, you know, you kind of are a little more open minded to what he is. And so it's just, it's interesting how that works.

But yeah, both these players are, I think, interesting in their own ways. And with Iyo Manor, like there's so many kind of ironic parallels to chase claypool. You have both being Canadian. Maybe that's why I'm out. Maybe that's why I'm out. I don't necessarily mean that as a glowing compliment by any means.

But you know, good size receivers that can run. The ball skills are definitely an issue. But, you know, he's physical. He's competitive. Like you feel like he's a guy that has not yet played his best football. And I will say his character is a lot better, night and day better, than what Claypools is. So, you know, like that's, I don't want to compare them as, you know, very similar players.

But skill sets are, I think, in ways similar. With Williams, yeah, I think if you can get, if you're okay with the size, you're going to be a lot higher on him than I think some of these, as opposed to maybe thinking he's going to be a third or fourth round player. And this is important to point out. I'm looking at him almost solely through the tape and what I can see. You're doing a lot more research. And then some of the analytical profile.

stuff. You know, Derek, you're attuned to these sorts of things. I think it's worth bringing up. When you're a super, super late breakout like this at a school like Washington State, it's at least a data point that we have to acknowledge, especially in an era where most of these guys, if you are a second or third round prospect of one of these schools, you're likely going to level up at some point during your college experience. And that's not something that happened with Kyle Williams. So I think that when you watch the tape, it's easy for somebody like me to be like, well, what do we miss in here? But there are other data points associated with the profile that I do think are worth bringing

up to get a more well-rounded understanding of who he is. Right. And the late breakout thing is not like this guy immediately sucks and isn't going to work out. It's just you have to ask the question of why. You know, Dane was talking earlier about with Elijah Oroyo. It's like, okay, his sophomore season shreds his knee. And it's like, okay, well, that is certainly going to stymie anybody's development pass. So there's that.

But then you have the Cadarius Tonys who was like dog housed at Florida for like three, four years. And then finally gets on the field as a senior. And everyone was like, well, why wasn't he playing? He was all this explosive stuff. And it's like, because the coach hated him. Like that's why he wasn't on the field. And so just asking the like, what was it with what? And I don't know what it was for Williams.

Like why it took him so long to kind of get there. But it does at least make you start to ask questions that, you know, like again, like I mentioned for Loveland, dude was an incredible player the day he stepped on the field at Michigan. And so like you just have fewer questions about guys like that. Let's talk about a few more tight ends before we get out of here. I probably should have mentioned this guy. and the second third round range.

But we talked about him yesterday with DJ Dane, and that's Terrence Ferguson from Oregon. Count me in. That's awesome. When I watch him, to me, it's a little bit, and this is, he was the player that was kind of driving my point about the gap between Loveland and the rest of the tight ends and Gentine and the rest of the running backs.

I think if you did the Peter Parker me with the glasses, you could get yourself there with Terrence Ferguson and Colson level it a little bit. He's not as smooth. He's not nearly, he's not the route runner, but I think that the broad strokes, there's a lot to like there with a guy like Terrence Ferguson. So you and DJ both expressed an affinity for him earlier this week. And I can understand why after really going back and watching him this week.

Yeah, easy player to like. Even though like the production's average is not great, like he wasn't a featured part of that offense. He missed some time this past year. So that was part of it. So I came in thinking, all right, this is a third round pick who has a chance to be a second round pick. and maybe like during the season he didn't quite get there. But it was the whole way, the senior bowl and the combine, the way he tested it, it was like just reaffirmed, okay, this is why I love the player so much, is he is a really natural receiver. And you feel like there's more meat on the bone here.

You feel like he has, you know, maybe it was just the way he was featured. But there's a lot, he has a lot of good football ahead of him. And it's maybe whether you want to use him in the slot, you want to use him, you know, I think you can use them in different ways, kind of like we were talking about with, with, with, Loveland. Yeah, I don't, I don't see a massive drop off between the two players. I would agree with that. I adore Terrence Ferguson. He is, dude, when I watched, when I was, when I was charting Bo Nix last year, it's just every game, it was like, dude, number three is the best player on the field. Like he's, like you said, he's probably not quite as smooth as Loveland is. I think you could make the case. He's probably a little bit more explosive at certain times. Like some of the, like, he's a great

athlete. I mean, you look at the testing. Yeah. Yep. Like some of the deep crossers he'll run where he's just eating up ground or some of the seam routes. And then his ball skills, you know, I don't think he's like the, you know, Jimmy Graham. He's reaching a foot above everybody else type of, you know, go high point it. But I think he very consistently when the ball is in his range, he's coming down with it. I think especially some of his red zone work is really incredible. And then as a blocker, I think he leaves something to be desired. He's probably going to be one of those guys who is a little bit more of a slot receiver than a tight end. But his blocking college is not. as offensive to me as like Dalton Kincaid's was or as like Sam LaPorte's is right now. So it's at least closer to the bar of competence that you did, you know, with a little bit more work he could get there. So he just, he's a top 50 player to me. He is just the athletic tools are so, so crazy. How much of a gap do you see between him and a guy like Gunner Helm, Derek, who is 96th

for Dane and like on the third, fourth barrier? Very different types of players. And so they're bringing very different things to the table. But you like Helm, correct? Not really actually When we were talking Before the show about who to include I just I figure Helm is going to go in in the top 100

I know that he's a player that that some people really like I actually really struggled with Gunner Helm I think you see moments of He does see the ball in really well And I think that that's a nice trait for a Titan to have The movement skills I just don't really think are there I don't think he's that explosive He's a safety blanket guy

Yeah he's a he's very much much a safety blanket guy, which if you're going to be that, I think you've got to be really, really exceptional at certain things, which actually the last guy we'll talk about to me is actually fits better in this bill. But Helm, to me, I just, I think he's more like a good rather than great with those safety blanket skills. And then just to me as a yak guy is not that exciting. As a blocker, he's actually decent in past pro, but for whatever reason, his feet just get tangled up in the run game and he just like falls off guys immediately. So if you're going to be a security blanket guy,

I'd rather you be a good blocker. And to me, I just struggled with it. So Helm is not a guy I loved. So if I was picking after Ferguson, to me, it's like that's where I'm looking at Arroyo or fan in like those, those type of guys.

Yeah, Helm just snuck into my top 100 as one of the fringe guy. I agree with the, I think you said about the athlete, but I thought he was still pretty efficient with his releases. and, you know, quick out of his stance. He gets how to play the game.

Yeah, exactly. He maximizes the tools that God gave him, you know? Like that's kind of the, and he catches the ball really well. Like you said, like a safety blanket, you know, obviously there's value in that because he is very reliable to catch point. He will consistently move the chains. So, yeah, I think there's value for that in the NFL, but not, maybe he's not the true mismatch weapon that you're looking for in a tight end.

that. The guy you did want to talk about Derek that you do like is Mitchell Evans, who is not on Dan's top 100. He is in his ninth tight end and a fourth round pick. What about Mitchell Evans stood out to you? I think relative to the entire class, any position, this is the player I'm highest on. Like I would take him probably in the top 70. Mitchell Evans, first of all, size. He's 6'6-260. That is a big man. And you just watch him play and he does all of the stuff that you want out of a big man. Like, I think he's a very good blocker. And not just like, oh, he's helping double team on duo or something like that.

No, like if you get him moving out in space or he's the slice guy on split zone, he is a very, very good and willing blocker. So I really love him for that. And then we talk about a guy being a safety security blanket. Mitchell Evans catches anything that he can see. He has long arms. Like, he just has this incredible ability to, you know, he's got to play against. I want to say it was Ohio State last year

where he goes up and just like one hands this dig route that he has no business getting and then a couple of plays later or a couple of drives later he's going and catching a ball at his feet and then still stumbling around to get back up and go run with the ball and I'm just like he does all of the stuff that you want out of a typical wide tight end.

I know that he's not going to be run down the seam and just run by everybody the way that like Sam Laporta can but he actually does have good like short air area quickness for a guy his size. I mean, shoot, they were playing him at slot or even on the boundary. Like, he's a guy who lines up everywhere. So to me, he just outside of pure explosive run with the ball ability, he checks every

single box to me. What do you make of that day? I saw, I mean, I saw some of that. I saw a guy that wasn't truly special in anyone area, but was just kind of good across the board, you know, like not explosive. I fall for those guys, though. I love those. And I get it.

And I certainly understand it with a player like this. I mean, I had a fourth round grade on him. So I wasn't let I don't think he's like undraftable or anything. But I do really like him at the catch point, like exactly what you're saying. Yeah, that catch against Ohio State on the 2023 tape definitely stands out. And context with him, you know, he suffered a, he had a torn ACL, what, October, like around Halloween of last year, 2023. So this year, you have to factor that in when you're watching this tape that there's a little bit of rust that he's shaken off. and I think you saw him get better and better throughout the season.

But as a blocker, he's solid, not amazing, not great, but solid. He'll execute as a receiver. I don't necessarily see a fluid player, but he's a guy that will attack the void. And if the ball's thrown to him, he's going to do whatever he can in his power to come down with it. So, yeah, I think there's a lot to like about him as a functional player who can, especially teams that run a lot of 12 personnel, really be of value for them. all right so those are your top eight-ish tight ends in this class and your top 12ish receivers in this class we packed all of that in about an hour and 40 minutes i feel pretty good about that right

sometimes we try to package this in interesting ways we didn't try to do that today we're just going through the guys what do you like what don't you and i think it was the right way to go about it some of the guys we missed i'm glad we you know we talked about another tory horton we talked about yesterday with dj uh savi on williams we talked about on the most polarizing show so Yeah, we were able to really cover a lot of these guys, especially the ones that we drafted in the first three, three and a half rounds. And guess what? That is when we will be live on YouTube next Friday.

Next Thursday and Friday, live on the Athletic Football Show YouTube channel. Thursday night, 7.30 p.m. Eastern. Me, Dane, Derek, Bruce Feldman. Please come check that out. We'll be talking about it a lot over the next week or so. Friday, 6.30 p.m. Eastern. the three of us, some great guests from the athletic football, from the athletic newsroom, very much looking forward to this. We've got some cool stuff coming your guys' way this year.

We're a great studio in Chicago. So please come hang out with us on YouTube on the first two nights of the draft. It's going to be a really good time. We would really appreciate it. For now, that's all we got. We'll be back on Monday with our last pre-draft mailbag. We're going to be finishing up our on the clock series on Tuesday with picks 26. six through 32. I'm very good at math. Our buddy Mike Renner from CBS is going to help us finish out that exercise. If you've not listened to the rest of those shows, we've talked about every team in the first round at length. So what are their needs, which directions they could possibly go. So if you want to catch up this weekend, go listen to the first three installments of that before our fourth and final one on Tuesday would encourage you to do that. And then on Wednesday, me, Dane, Brandon Thorne, all offensive linemen from this class all the time. And that will wrap. round out our prospect coverage and a majority of our draft coverage here on the athletic football show. So that's what we got on tap over the next week or so before our live draft show.

Please be on the lookout for all of that. For now, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.