The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The 2026 NFL Draft prospects you're wrong about...and why

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

Look, we get it. We're wrong sometimes too. But there are at least seven NFL Draft prospects that you, draft analysts, or NFL teams are just plain wrong about. On this episode of The Athletic Football Show, we're correcting those wrong narratives and incorrect evaluations. Bruce Feldman joins Dave Helman and Robert Mays to set you on the right course.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerSenior Producer: Katy DuffySocial Producer: Scott KrinchGuest: Bruce FeldmanFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @RobertMaysFollow Dave on X: @DaveHelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Got a fun one on tap today. We're talking about the NFL draft through a college football lens on this show. We have fantastic college football writers and reporters that work for the athletic, including the legendary Bruce Feldman. Bruce joined us today with Dave Hellman to do a show that we've kind of done in the past, and that's talking about guys who are part of this draft class through the lens of what they were as college players.

I feel like as we move through the draft process, we get these warped conversations. that can happen about guys that kind of gets away from what they were as actual football players in college. And so it's always fun to chat with people who see it through that college football lens and watch these guys week to week and get their take on what the draft discourse has become. So that's what we're doing today. Bruce and Dave, both of whom are watching college football every week, are thinking about it as college football fans. I wanted to ask them about about eight players that they think the draft industrial conference, and the conversation through the draft process has gotten wrong with some of these guys. We talked about seven or eight guys today that Bruce and Dave just think we haven't been

talking about correctly as we have moved through the draft process. Really enjoyed this one. Thank you guys will as well. Let's get to it right now. I'm very excited about today's show. You know I'm excited when I'm trying to explain the next day's podcast concept to my wife, where I'm like, I'm really excited about tomorrow's show. Like it's just, it's a little bit of a different conversation.

What we're going to do is we're going to take two guys who are college football fans and people who are ingesting the sport as college football fans and watchers and analysts. And we're going to try to talk about the draft through that lens. And I think that's a really cool way to talk about the draft. And she's like, yeah. It's a fascinating way to talk about the draft. So that's how you know that I'm looking forward to this is that I tried to get her excited about it. I got no bites, Dave. She's like, can I unpause the TV show?

Like, why are you doing this? We were watching Top Chef. She was upset that I was talking about anything else while we were watching Top Chef. It's also one of the rare occasions that we joyfully get Bruce Feldman to join us on this show. Bruce, you're going to be back for the draft show this year, which we're very excited about. But it's great to have you on one of the podcasts before we get rolling with that. Yeah, it was a blast being with you guys in Chicago last year. Excited, excited.

A little bit of our pre-production chatter today. I was like, ooh, Dave and I are kind of seeing things through the same prism. which may not be good for the podcast, but I was like there was two things that I totally agreed with them on. One thing that we talked about a little bit a minute ago, and the other thing, he doesn't know what it is. But I got excited when I saw that message, Bruce. I'm excited about this because as I often am, I was like using Slack and conducting business while I was walking my dog. And I saw your message that we agreed. And I was like, if Bruce is with me, no one can stand against me.

Like, I can't wait. What I enjoy about this type of conversation is that I think players, I was going to say get warped. Let's just say they change. I don't want to put a good or bad value on it. Players change as they move through the process of the draft industrial complex, right? We talk about them in a different way. We see them in a different way as we start to look at them through a draft lens. And I think for people who are consumers of college football and have.

known these players for an extended period of time and watch them week in and week out during the college football season, it can sometimes be like an exercise in cognitive dissonance where you're watching the way that a player is talked about. And it's like, really? This guy? Like, that's what you think about this guy? And so that's what we're going to do today. I wanted you guys each to pick like four-ish players that you think as the draft process

has gone along, you feel like there's been some sort of misrepresentation where you think some bit of the conversation about this player has been wrong as we put them through the meat grinder of what the pre-draft process looks like. I love it as a thought exercise because, yeah, I mean, obviously I cover the NFL. I do the pod with you, Robert, but I've long held. And Bruce, I'd love your take on this, but I've long held that you can avoid a lot of draft pitfalls by just watching college football. And you're not, your hit rate's not going to be great.

Obviously, there are definitely late bloomers and outliers and all that good type of stuff. But if you just keep an eye on college football, it will steer you in the right direction the vast majority of the time. The one guy who I feel like me and some of my college media folks have been the most wrong about was Josh Allen. Because you wondered about the completion percentage when they played against better teams. He struggled. and the only game I've ever done as a sideline reporter was Josh's rookie year. They're playing the lion, Stafford's being held together by glue.

He can barely stand up in the production meeting because his back is so bad. It's late in the year. Bad game. This is like Robert Foster is the go-to guy for the bill. Oh, I remember that team well, too well. And so we come back there. Now I've spent the weekend with the bills

and watched Josh. And I remember I go back to the guy I do the audible with Stu Mandel, And I said, Stu, I think we were both really wrong, are going to be really wrong on Josh Allen. He was like, no. I'm like, no. I mean, they don't have anything around him, but like he's going to be a big star in the NFL.

And usually the guys who struggle with completion percentages, it's like a decent bet that they're going to struggle in the NFL. That was one where scouts were spot on about the wow factor with him. And obviously he was in, you know, a lot of stuff played into that. But usually it feels like it translates or it carries over, or it doesn't, you know, like, you know, where the shortcomings are, usually the guy who has that kind of X-factor quality is going to be a star in the NFL, too. Guy, I think on the other side of this that I think is kind of the like puzzle piece to Josh Allen,

like the mirror image on the other side is Anthony Richardson. Because a lot of college football fans were like, this guy, you're going to pick this guy in the top five. And every argument was, well, the tools and we could ignore things like the completion percentage. and then Anthony Richardson's career in Indianapolis, at least to this point, plays out very differently, Dave, than what we saw with Josh Allen. So I think there are plenty of examples on both sides of this. Those are really two of my most memorable examples. And obviously that quarterbacks tend to stand out for good reason.

But I remember if you wanted to be mean to me, you could probably go dig up some mean things I tweeted about Josh Allen, where I was like 57% at Wyoming and we're banking a franchise on this. Like, are we really doing this? Yeah, basically. But then I vividly remember, I tell you all the time, Robert. You know, I listened to this show before I was on it. And I remember arguing, like yelling at my car radio with you and Nate being like, Anthony Richardson.

Really? This is what we're doing? But obviously the skill set and the traits are so intoxicating. It's a fun trip down memory lane thinking about those two days. Plus you had this. We talk ourselves into it. You had the, oh, Shane Steichen, we know what that did. And oh, he's working with you.

Hewlett and he's the he's the buzz guy in the in the QB development space at that point. Oh, Tom Gormley, great. All these things bode well and, you know, maybe it'll work out, you know, but at this point, no. So funny. I vividly remember like that part of the conversation because I think one of the guys, aside from Josh Allen, because we had, remember there was this stretch where I think we were having a lot of conversations about quarterback improvement and how much a guy could improve from what he was in college through the NFL, whether that be accuracy.

see other things like that. And along with Josh Allen, the other guy was Jalen Hertz. And so there was this argument where, well, if you have the tools and you have the want to, you can close some of those gaps. And Bruce, I think the Will Hewitt, Tom Gormley of it all was one of those examples of, well, he's working to make sure that he's going to improve. And the wiring is clearly where it needs to be. So he can close the same sort of gaps that Josh Allen closed. And it just, you get in these cycles where I think some of the examples that you can hold up as these shining lights of it working out the right way, you start attaching yourself to that too much.

And I think in a lot of ways, that's what happened with Anthony Richardson. But we don't have to go any further down that road. But you mentioning those two names, I was like, oh, God, there's a lot of stuff out there about me being very happy that he was doing that stuff

and thinking it was going to matter. I want to start this discussion in what is, to me, a little bit of a surprising place. All I told you guy was just come with four names. And there wasn't a lot of restrictions on what those names could be, where they have to rank on the, beast, things like that.

And Dave, the first name that you sent me was Arvel Reese. And I want to know how you think people are wrong about the player who is number one on Dane's board and is like a consensus top five pick according to pretty much everybody who has put out of mock draft over the last two months. I think Arvel Reese is a perfect place to start this conversation because I think Arvel Reese is a perfect encapsulation of the draft industrial complex. and let's spin it all the way back to August, right? Because I've been doing Building the Beast with Dane since mid-August,

had an up-close view to Dane's process to this whole thing. He called his fucking shot, man. He called his shot. It's from like day one. But I also think, and it's not a criticism at Dane, I just think it's the nature of pardon the pun, the beast, and how much interest there is in the draft process and how many people are curious about who's coming down the line.

Because I think podcasts like that and conversations like, that start these snowball effects that can kind of get out of control. So let's take it back to August. We probably mentioned Arvel Reese before the season, but really it was a lot of sunny styles. It was a lot of Caleb Downs, Carnell Tate. And they played Texas in the season opener. And like right away, Dane was like, we got to talk about this kid, Arvel Reese. This guy's a monster. And it gets to the point where like by October, I'm telling Dane, okay, who can we talk about that's not Arvel Reese? Like, I mean, how many times are we going to get on here and say this guy kicks ass? And so it grows from there to the point where people that are getting involved in the draft process are like,

holy shit, the next Micah Parsons is coming down the line. Let's get a look at this guy. And I think the hype gets to a point where the more people get involved and the more people watch, it's just hard to live up to that level of expectation where it's like, well, I thought this guy was going to redefine what pass rushers are capable of. and you're telling me that he's a linebacker turned edge who had six and a half sacks and moved all over the defense. Like, what's so sexy about this? Like, what am I missing?

And yeah, so he's the top five prospect. I think most people expect him to go very, very high in the NFL draft. But I do think there's been like a reaction or a backlash to the initial reaction where people are like, well, all right, hold on. Like, are we sure this is Reggie White reincarnate? Like, are we sure we need to go this far? and you've seen plenty of people saying, are you sure he's not better as a linebacker? What's the fit?

Like, how consistently can he get sacks at the NFL level? And the reason why I think people are wrong is, don't overthink this. Like, just because he has been in the consciousness for nine months at this point does not mean he's not an incredibly exciting player. He is 20 years old, guys. Arval Ries is 20 and had never played. on the defensive line until Matt Patricia got to Columbus and said, who the hell is this guy and

how do we get him going after the quarterback? And that was, that was his first time doing this. He's played 300 snaps on the defensive line in college football. Like he's, he's just scratching the surface of this and that's what he looked like. And so, yeah, you're, you're right in the sense that I think everybody expects him to be a big time draft pick, but this is not a consolation prize in year where there are no good players. Like I think Arvel Reese has a chance to be a really, really special player and the team that drafts him should be really excited about it. Like that framing a lot. I like the idea that I think too often as part of this draft process, we have looked at the top 10 that includes a lot of guys where there's some positional blurriness,

where there's some outliers physically, and we've just lumped all of them in too much as this is not a good draft at the top. And there are consolation prizes. And the idea of David Bailey going number two. I think part of the, well, if David Bailey being an acceptable second overall pick, Dave, is just we're lumping all these guys in in the same tier of players, right? I think that's how it happens that way. And I think that's what you're pushing back against where Arvel Reese is not a part of the conversation we've been having with everybody else.

He is like a special prospect that would be talked about this way in virtually any draft. And we should make sure that we're separating those two things as we talk about these guys. That's how I feel, but I would love Bruce's take on this. Yeah, I'm with Dave on this because I feel like this is not a great draft. Well, I think it's the one position it's a really good draft for it is if you need a safety. That's where it's a good draft. The rest of it, I feel like there's probably three truly elite players in this draft. One is R. V.L. Reese, I would say you can pick two between Jeremiah Love the running back from Notre Dame or David Bailey.

but he is more versatile than David Bailey and he is probably even more athletic from what you see from him. And I go back with him to, we put out the Freaks list in early August and the day it came out, I got a text from my old colleague because he used to work at Fox,

James Laurenitis, former Ohio State linebacker, former Rams linebacker, who's now the linebacker who chit at Ohio State. and he said, I think you missed Arvel Reese. And I wanted to be like, hey, take it up with Mickey. That's the strength coach at Ohio State,

who's a great resource for this and knows better than anybody. But then he started to tell me about Arvel Reese. And it didn't take long, but I think one of the teams that were playing Ohio State in like the first month of the season, one of their coaches like, Caleb Downs ain't the best player on the defense. It's Sunny Stiles. and they just raved about what he could do. And so whenever I see somebody,

because I saw this when the mock draft went up, some comment, you know, there's plenty of comments that I was like, oh yeah, there's some ability to that. One person was like, he only had sick, you know, like he's talking about stats. I'm like, you are so missing the boat here. Like this guy was Freddie Kruger to a lot of offenses.

Just because they did so much differently with him. And as you said, Robert, he's still young in his development. but he plays with such violence and the knockback and all the things like Sonny Stiles is a true freak athlete I mean he was on that list and he showed it at the combine but basically whatever Sunny Stiles did Arvel Reese is that except Arvall Reese is an even better player like and not to make an argument for Dave but if Sunny Stiles again this is not meant to be a knock on him but if he's going five and Arvel Reese goes two or three I feel like

there's actually a pretty big gap between the two in terms of what you're getting in value. So to me, I'm all in on Dave's point. I get why, because I thought about it, you know, making that case too, but I'm like, yeah, how am I going to justify saying a guy who, who, you know, you can find him in the third, you know, behind David Bailey in some of these drafts, but for the most part, you're still talking about a top three guy. And that's hard to say he's not, you know. But I think based off of this, Abdul Carter went third last year, another guy who had been a linebacker and then became an edge guy for Penn State, good player and an elite athlete, I think Arvel Reese is a much, much more special player when what he's going to be like in the

NFL. I think that's a very, again, that puts a very fine point on what we're saying because I think that people looked at Abdul Carter in last year's draft that was considered a much better draft and he was considered a prize at the top of the draft where I think some of the guys at the top of this draft have been framed more as consolations. And I think that's an important distinction. A big part of it is, again, we just haven't seen that much of Arvel Reese in the grand scheme of things.

Like, the guy has played less than a thousand total snaps of defense at the college level. Like, he was a fine linebacker as a sophomore. He didn't get on the field as a freshman. And like I said, Matt Patricia came up with this plan to use him as an everything player this past year. He just hasn't done very much. I've told this story a few times. And it goes to my point that I think maybe you're not excited by the full body of work that you've seen from Arvel Reese because it's just not that much stuff right now.

I obviously covered the Cowboys for a long time. I remember the year they drafted Tyler Smith. He was like a redshirt sophomore coming out of Tulsa. He was very, he was very grabby, a lot of holding calls. And people were a little bit flabbergasted that this guy who's incredibly wrong. goes in the first round of the draft. And the body of work that was there at Tulsa is maybe not all that impressive. And I remember in the wake of that, somebody came to me, somebody in the organization came

to me and was like, what if I told you Alabama was gunning for this guy in the portal? And they wanted him to be their left tackle so, so badly. And a year from now, if he plays 15 games left tackle at Alabama, where do you think he's going to be drafted with this sort of skill set? Like it's it's not about where he is right now. It's about the talent that could lead him somewhere greater. And I think about that with Rvel Reese where I'm like, man, if this is what we got after 330 snaps of defensive line,

just figuring out how to do it. And the guy's not old enough to legally drink yet. I'm really comfortable making a bet like that. And I just call it the draft industrial complex. I feel like people are, or maybe I'm just too terminally online. I feel like people have kind of gotten away from that. it's just like, ah, I guess he's the best edge rusher in a bad class.

And I'm like, no, man, I think this guy could be a different beast from that. It's always a little calm, a little comby. When it comes to both of those things. Exactly. There was one player that was on both of your guys's lists, and that is Malachi Lawrence from UCF. Bruce, why do you think people have been wrong about Malachi Lawrence in the run-up to the draft here? Robert, I think some of it has to do with if you polled a bunch of NFL D-Line coaches, everybody wanted to go to Orlando and not for Disney

because they wanted to go see this guy who's super twitchy I think he was kind of a it's funny because he's in the same conference now as because UCF and Texas Tech are both in the Big 12 same conference with David Bailey yeah that's a story for another day it's disgusting as a man who went to a Big 12 school once upon a time that is no longer a Big 12 school I it's hard for me to get over the fact that UCF is in the Big 12 but the sports in a weird place right now.

Yeah. Not a fan. But I think if Malikai Lawrence even was at Florida State, which hasn't been great the last two years, but if he was there, I think people are talking about him as a first round pick. You know, he obviously showed it at the Combine, freaky athleticism, you know, 40-inch vertical. He's going to, you know, broad jump 11 feet or close to it. And you see that kind of twitch in terms of his get-off. He's still pretty raw, but I think what we've seen in the NFL is,

if you have some next level kind of explosiveness and get off and you can bend, you can be molded into a difference maker. And I think he's going to be one of those guys. Again, I come back to how many people, how many de line coaches I know in the NFL have kind of like, he's like a become a, you know, there's like a Malachi fan club, you know. And so I think from that, I was like, all right, I'm going to ride with him. I know there's a bunch of dudes who are, I think there will be some double-digit sack guys who get taken beyond the first round, right? Your alma mater has one.

Like I know a lot of people who really like Zion Young, they're just like, he's going to be a steal for somebody in the second round because they don't think he's going in the first round. But he's a very, very good player. In a little bit of ways, he was kind of overshadowed because you get Damon Wilson from Georgia coming in there. He's really talented. I know he's not still there. He ended up leaving already to Miami. that's part of it. You have so many guys now who are those edge guys who even if they don't,

even if they're a shade undersized or maybe even their length, Cassius Howells fits in that category from Texas. I'm not right. Whereas Lawrence, I feel like is checking a lot of boxes. It's just the refinement you need to see from him. But I think he's a really intriguing talent and the traits are special. It's funny. We talked about it in the show yesterday with Dane and with Derek.

I think that as you get into that late first, early second. It feels like there are two main buckets of edge rushers where one is the undersized twitchy guy. You're at Malachi or, Armason Thomas, Cassius Howell, guys like that. And the other guys that are bigger body, maybe have a little bit less juice. The guys like Zion Young. And it felt to me like Malachi Lawrence is the one guy in that range that you have a little bit of both. Like if it works out, he's giving you a little bit of both in a way a lot of those other guys aren't. You're saying Florida State Bruce is such an interesting example because it feels like as much as any school there's like a weird magic to defensive players in that uniform that like gives them a little

bit of something when you're evaluating them like i even think about uh jared verse and like all of like the defensive linemen that have come out of there and if like if we had watched malachi lawrence with his play style in a florida state uniform what does that do for like him as a draft prospect i think it's like an interesting thought exercise well you know by the same token and i don't want to diminish this player because i think he's a really good player but i had one of the big 10 coaches say, look, if Carnell Tate played at Minnesota or Michigan, are we talking about him as a top 10 pick? You know, he's a really good route runner. He's not super fast. He's got good size, not great size, but you're talking about the, you know, like Ohio State receivers have the highest floor

of any college position in the draft, right? We've seen it. Jackson Smith and Jigba, arguably the best receiver in the NFL right now was not like, people thought he was a really good player. But again, you kind of go through the list. I mean, when McLaurin gets to the commanders, he breaks out fast. You just see, you know, Michael Thomas was better in the NFL than he was in Columbus. It's just a lot of guys. And I feel like with that position, you know, he was not the, he was not a number one there. Now, the guy who's the number one is still there, you know, and Jeremiah Smith is special.

Like he's, I think, light years better than any of these other receivers in this draft. But I think it's a little bit of, it's hard for us. You know, it's like almost inherent where we're going to compare the guy to the place that they came from or something that reminds us of them. And I think that's certainly, you know, you mentioned our, R Mason Thomas. You know, one of the D-line coaches in the NFL I talked to likes him and was like, you know, if they didn't move him and kind of do so much stuff with him, he's like, I think he might be a late first round pick. but it's just like there's just a lot of stuff where it's the same thing with the Clemson guys where it's like and that's also Brent Venable's defense where I think there are coaches who have a little bit of a bias against or for where players come from.

Did you have Malachi Lawrence on your list for a similar reason, Dave? Or did you have a slightly different perspective as to why Malachi Lawrence is one of your guys here? No, I'm just straight up cheating because look, I can I can give you my opinion and I can tell you about how I watched the Baylor game and all these different cutups of Malachi Lawrence. Like he's clearly a very impressive player. I think he's got a really developed bag of pass rush moves. But to Bruce's point, Malachi Lawrence,

going back to February is just a guy that when I talk to scouts, coaches, evaluators, he comes up consistently. Like, it really has nothing to do with my opinion where people have reached out to me over the draft process and been like, hey, just so you know, I love this kid. He's awesome. And so I just look at that. I think Dane has him as edge, I believe, seven.

He's 36th overall on Dane's Big Board. He's 36th on Dane's board and he's Edge 7. And on the consensus big board across every mock and Big Board on the Internet, he's 41 and Edge 8. So like he's pretty firmly thought of by us on the outside as like a day two sort of guy. I can't guarantee that he's going to be a first round pick. But just from the conversations I've had, I think it's I think it's fairly possible. Like that wouldn't shock me.

All right. We're going to keep running through a few of these guys. But first, let's take our first quick break. All right, Bruce. Let's get to somebody who was on the freaks list heading into this season. And that is Ted Hurst, the wide receiver who is number 72 on Dane's big board, his 13th wide receiver. Why is Ted Hurst a guy that people are wrong about?

I think Ted Hurst went to Georgia State. I think if Ted Hurst went to Georgia or if Ted Hurst went somewhere, you know, even your alma mater or some of, you know, Missouri, somewhere in the SEC, Ted Hurst is a first round pick. And you saw what he, you saw what he did at the senior bowl. I think people were like, who is this guy? So as you said, he was a freaksless guy. And when I would talk to people about him, they were like, man, he is his trait.

are they're not off the charts but they are like eye catching right you know you're talking about an 11 foot broad jump guy I'm also talking about a guy who's like legit six three 205 you know that's there's no Calvin Johnson's in this draft but he is very very gifted but he's also a guy who's competitive and I think a lot of the intangible stuff that I'd heard about from people down at Georgia state and by the way I'd use the Georgia example not coincidentally. But like, you know, his coach is, Del McGee is a former Georgia running back coach

and recruited a lot of really good players on Kirby Smart's in Kirby Smart's program. So there's a lot of overlap. Like the point being, they know what an elite talent and elite athlete looks like. And so I think this draft has a bunch of dudes who, I don't love the first round receiver group, but I think in the second,

third round, this has like a lot of freak athlete guys. You know, Trey Lance's brother, Bryce who was a good player at North Dakota State, not super polished, but is very explosive athlete. Ted Hurst. Jeff Caldwell at Cincinnati started his career at Little Lindenwood. He's a legit six five, two hundred fifteen pound guy who's going to broad jumps in the 113, 115. I mean, those guys are are pretty special athletes, but hers physicality and

his competitiveness, I feel like I would bet on that and more so than maybe some of the other guys who are kind of wow athletes who backed it up at the combine. I think Hearst's best football is ahead of him. I'm curious to see where he goes and how he gets polished up. But the growth that I think he's made in a relatively short amount of time also I think bodes well. Hearst is one of those fun evaluations you run up on during draft season where it's harder to get your hands on that tape, you know? Like Ohio State, Georgia, Texas, like, that's easy. Georgia State, not so much. And like, they're playing at the old Braves baseball park.

And every time he makes like an incredible play, you're like, this is awesome. Who's he going against? Like, how impressed should I be by this? And so that finding the balance of loving a guy like that. verse knowing the competition that he's going against in a lot of these games. There's guys like that that are tricky for me every single year, but he's so fun to watch. Probably a couple. Obviously, the level of competition plays into it.

And I think that's similar to what Bruce is saying about coming from Georgia, Georgia State and just what that's going to mean versus coming from a bigger school. The other thing that I had heard, and I'm curious if you think this is legitimate, Bruce, is that despite having that frame and some of those physical tools, he doesn't always play that big. And I think that was one of Dane's weaknesses that he put in the beast is that sometimes you just don't really see, you know, that level of play strength for somebody who has that frame. And so maybe some of it is perception, but would you agree that there are enough holes in his game, they're also pushing him down in people's minds a little bit? I think it's a little bit raw, you know, in terms of a guy who's gotten physically stronger over the last year or so.

And I think that's also kind of growing into his body. I don't want to say he was like cultish, you know, for lack of a better term, where he's, you know, He was kind of this spinly guy because he was still, you know, even before this kind of run where he started to blow up, he was still pretty good size relative to a lot of college receivers. But I think that is part of it in terms of those with the polish. I think there is a competitiveness in them that you would see at times. But I think it falls back to the consistency piece of it. And, you know, look, I get it with smaller school guys. You wonder who they're going up against.

Now, I think he's in a conference where there are some good DBs. So it's not like there isn't anybody, but I think that's definitely, you know, look, I'm trying to remember who the receiver was in the Big Ten. It was a Purdue player who was super productive. And I just remember hearing a lot from the NFL guys, I know, going, I don't think he's going to be able to do this in the NFL. And again, this guy played in the Big Ten.

It wasn't like he played in a group of six conference. So I think that's the hard part with the availability. evaluations is who is he winning against and what is you know what is he doing because i would argue that almost every receiver in this draft has some level of blemish or or kind of all right hesitation are we you know like there's something where there's a reason why there's a little bit of skepticism here was it bruce was it david bell do you remember it was david bell yeah i i remember i remember remember having that dialogue about David Bell. David Bell was like a sturdy receiver who I'm guessing,

I don't know if he played any faster than Jake Bobo, you know, for like he, but he was a really good receiver. He was a really good receiver in the Big Ten. And I don't, you know, again, maybe it was creative play calling that they pretty was able to get him the ball the way they did. But yeah, that is who it was. I'm curious, Bruce, in a world where everybody seems to be transferring

to a higher level of competition when you're able to do it, Why in your mind does a guy like Ted Hurst stick at Georgia State for his final year in college if there's a chance he could have gone somewhere else? That's a good question. And I honestly don't know the specific answer with him because I've had this come up three different times or two other times. One is Proctor, who's a really good DeLy lineman from South Leas, Louisiana. Coaches I know who've met with him, love them. And they were like they give him credit for that.

And then also McNeil Warren, the terrific Emmanuel McNeil Warren from Toledo, one of the coaches, you know, in my mock draft, I would talk to coaches who played them. And this particular coach, who their team played a lot of good teams this past year, was like, I give him a lot of credit because he could have gone a bunch of other places, as talented as he is. And so you don't know, A, is it just loyalty to the program, to the guys they've been with? Is it a case where it was like, hey, you know what? Maybe the money wasn't worth it to uproot and see what we're going to get.

I don't know the specifics on that because there's plenty of guys. Like Memphis had a receiver and you guys were, I know now you guys will probably know who this is, a year ago who was a big athletic receiver who the SEC wanted and Memphis stepped up and gave him a decent amount of money. So he decided to stay for 2024. And he was in the draft last year. So there are examples of plenty of guys who decided. you know what I'm not going to jump at the money it's more times than not they do jump at the money but

this was uh it was head against Seth Hedigan's go-to guy and I can't I'm blanking on his name but Memphis paid him a good amount of money to stay I don't know if they paid him more than old miss would have but I but I heard it was they got competitive usually it's not the case like a Toledo's not like I remember years ago Spencer Brown who's obviously now the bill's offensive tackle they're doing a story about he decided I'm not leaving all these people were calling I'm staying here these are the guys who who believed in me first and I remember one of the coaches were like we should put a we should put a statue out in front of the stadium of him because the loyalty and a commitment to to be here so there aren't there aren't that many guys like that there's probably less now than there used to be but it

definitely still happens it was an eye opening back going back to the beginning of the building the beast process it was kind of eye opening to start this out with day and get to a point where you realize like, oh, wow, there's like, you know, of the top 100, 120 guys that are on Dane's radar at the start of the season, it's like half a dozen or less at the G5 level because, I mean, money talks, understandably so. So Emmanuel McNeill Warren's decision to stay there, I think it's one of my favorite subplots of this draft class. Speaking of guys who transferred, let's get to our next guy on your list here, Dave. again, you're going deep into into the pool here. Caleb Downs is somebody that people are wrong about. Why Caleb Downs?

Call me basic if you want to. I think it's easier to, it's easier to develop a firm take on some of these bigger guys. Because like as you, as you go down the line, like day three, day two into day three, there's just so many variables outside of the players control. Like where do you land? What does the depth chart look like? What does the scheme look like? And so it's, it's harder to plant your. flag on those types of guys, not because they're

good, not good players, but because there's so many other variables involved, it's easier to look at these guys that are going to get drafted into specific roles with chances to be a day one starter. And for Caleb Downs, it's very similar to Arvel Reese. I mean, I didn't

come into this meaning to be an Ohio State apologist, but we're doing, it's kind of the inverse where like Arvel Reese was this supernova who burst onto the scene and people who follow the draft wouldn't shut up about him from October until January, whereas Caleb Downs, he was that guy who everybody penciled him in as a top 15 pick in

in 2023. And so it just feels like we're bored of talking about him. And you're already, you're already kind of seeing it, right? Like back earlier in the draft process, you could reasonably count on seeing Caleb Downs as a top five pick potentially. Like maybe the New York Giants want Caleb Downs. Maybe. Maybe. the commanders would take him at seven. And as recently as this week, Peter Schrager, who I respect very much, who's very, very plugged in, he's doing mock drafts where he's suggesting that Caleb Downs could fall to the Dallas Cowboys at 12, which I would love it for the Dallas Cowboys, but I'm like, why are we doing this again?

Why are we so hell bent on finding something wrong with this guy who's been a can't miss prospect for three years? Like, and the thing that drives me crazy, and we've talked about it a few times, Robert, is this, this is a draft full of guys where it's like a, yeah, but he's this. And the thing with Caleb Downs is, yeah, but he's a safety. He's not, though. He's not, though. Yes, please, Bruce, interject, please. Robert, I want to help Dave out here. And I'm going to not present the straw man intentionally or not, but I would say this.

So, yes, the 2023 season when he's a true freshman and he's a. he leads Alabama in tackles by like 30 tackles playing a position that's as hard to learn as any in college football for Nick Sabin, people raved about him. The part where I think there's a little bit of blowback or a little backlash, and it's, it's screwy to do this. And the example I use a lot is whenever I have to justify who I pick for the Heisman, what I hate about that radio interview or that podcast is I end up crapping on somebody who's really good, right? Because you're just trying to make that case. So with Caleb Downs, now I've definitely heard a lot of this, you know, from coaches either

in the Big Ten or now talking to NFL coaches for like my confidential piece is, you know, there's coaches who are like, I would not be surprised if Dylan Thineman, also in the same conference at Oregon, who was at Purdue, was picked ahead of him. there's people who are like, okay, the concerns about Caleb. And I think where the backlash really started, Dave, is I don't remember who it was, but some, you know, because there's so many different, you know, NFL shows that are on, you know, all year round, but somebody was like, Caleb Downs is the best safety since when to come into, you know, it's like, so you're either pushing past, are we going to say like Ed Reed,

who was a Hall of Famer and arguably the greatest, you know, safety of our lifetimes, but he wasn't like a top 10 pick. And usually for that position, you're expecting some kind of like Sean Taylor kind of athlete with that with freakish size and athleticism, whereas Caleb Down is a good athlete. He's not tiny. But he also, you know, I've talked to coaches already

who have been like lamenting, you know, his arms, you know, he's got 30 and a half inch arms. You want more arm length to play in the NFL. There's definitely question marks about how good he was in coverage. which, you know, even the guys who are skeptical on him think he's super smart, he's very instinctive, he is a good tackler, and he makes plays. They worry about his coverage. They worry about his length. And, you know, it's because it's such a weird position.

The guy was most effusive on last year at this time by far. And he was definitely, some of it was the freaksless part, was Nick Emanwari. Nick Emanwari, as you guys know, did not go in the first round. Now, he is a much more physically impressive athlete, much more dynamic athlete, also made a lot of plays there. But it took, oh, Mike McDonald was like, yeah, that's going to be my X factor guy. And obviously, you know, he hit it out of the park. But it's a weird position in terms of like how they fit, what you do with them. I mean, to take a safety 12, even if it's a low is, and again, I'm not, I'm not crapping on Caleb.

I'm not trying to do that. but it's like the other two safeties who are in this conversation, you know, one is a Toledo who's like probably has may have a higher ceiling, but probably a way lower floor, whereas I think people look at it and go, Caleb's floor is really, really high. But it was like, you know, how well does he cover, you know, the length is a little bit of a question mark if we're talking about taking any safety in the top 10. That's all. That's that's that's all I want to chime in on. Bruce, I respect you so much, but you, you kind of. have made my point for why I wanted to talk about this. Because we're, that's why I chimed in. We are, we're picking this guy apart.

And yeah, I can't guarantee he's going to be an all pro, but I just don't think we need to overthink it that much. And, and my, my only pushback to that would be, he will be listed as a safety. That is true. He's not a safety. He's a safety nickel corner box linebacker hybrid guy. Like, if you're drafting Caleb, downs and getting the most out of him, it's with the idea that he's going to regularly play

three to five positions for you. And that's feedback that I've gotten from NFL evaluators where they're like, hey, make sure you bring up the fact that this is, this is a nickel player. Like, this guy can go into the slot and do that stuff on a regular basis. Like, is he going to do it down in and down out? No, but Caleb Downs played, I wrote it in my notes somewhere. He played roughly 600 snaps in the slot during his college career. And he played plenty in the box. He played plenty of free. The idea is that you can do so many things with him.

And it's disingenuous to compare him to Eminwari and Kyle Hamilton because those guys are just unicorn type of athletes. And that's that's the knock on Caleb, right? He is a good athlete. He is not a unicorn. But he can still do so many things for you. He's going to improve your run game. His instincts are off the charts.

One note that I made that I wanted to throw in here, just because it just stands out to me as somebody who's not a scout. Robert, we talked about this. Watching safeties is tedious work because you got to watch like 15 minutes to hopefully get one or two plays of something interesting, like of the safety making a play on the ball and coming up and getting involved. But Caleb Downs is doing shit every other snap. Like the guy recognizes things and gets in on the action with a quickness that is wild to watch in person.

And he's been doing it across all three years of his career. In addition, it's a thing that doesn't really show up on tape. Bruce, maybe you can speak to this. Everything I've heard about the guy is that he's just wired to be that football is all that matters robot that coaches. is they covet so much. Like the guy that's all about ball. I mean, I heard, obviously, he goes from Alabama to Ohio State when Nick Saban retired. And what I heard is part of the reason he did that was like, he was like, I don't have time to wait around and see who you're going to hire and wait for the ball to get rolling at Alabama.

I got to get into a program and get back to work. And so he, of course, goes to Ohio State, which is basically the same program as Alabama. So everything I've heard about the guy's makeup, in addition to three years worth of really good tape, I just, I think we might be overthinking the guy a little bit. The best compliment, I think, from a coach who had him, Jim Knowles, who was the defense coordinator, you know, for him for when he transferred from, you know, a lot of people thought he was going to go to Georgia. He's from Georgia, but he ended up going to Ohio State. Obviously, that was a coup for Ryan Day. Jim Knowles, who was the highest paid assistant coach in college football when he was at Ohio State, the defense coordinator, you know, 60-year-old guy. It wasn't like he was new to the world.

He said the hardest interview he's ever had, whether it was for another coach or anything, was with Caleb Downs because he was that much on him about why do we do this, you should do that, you know, all these other things like it was like talking to another coach and a really smart one. And so that's the part where, you know, I would say he's probably off the charts in football IQ. And one other bonus with him, and I don't know where if this will fit in at all for the NFL. But last in 2024, not the year Indiana won the national title, but Indiana is undefeated. They come to Columbus. And I remember we were out the game. And he runs a punt back, right? Like, I mean, usually in a program like that where you have so many elite athletes, you know, it says something that that guy was returning punts at that point.

So, I mean, it's just another another little chip for him. He like changed the dynamic of that game, if my memory is correct, too, right? I mean, yeah, it was 14-7. He blew it open. Yeah. 14-7 early third. And then the punt return kind of makes it a laffer for Ohio State. Yeah, he's just, I get it.

Positional value is absolutely something. you have to consider, but in a year with so few sure things at the top of the draft, look, as somebody who's like invested in what the Dallas Cowboys do, I think it would be awesome if he fell to 12. But I just, I don't know. I think we're overthinking things a little bit if this is a guy that falls outside the top 10. Bruce, I don't want to spend too much time on this because there are other guys I want to give you, but Dane talking, Dave saying that, you know, he can be a nickel, maybe on a full-time

nickel. In a world where we've seen the value of these full-time nickel players, is there, Are you a reason that Caleb Downs couldn't survive full-time as a nickel player in the NFL based on the people that you've talked to? I don't know, you know, is the coverage there? I mean, I don't know. Like, one of the comparisons I heard was to Buda Baker, who's been a phenomenal NFL player, right? I think Buddha was a second round pick. But is a use as a tackler first and foremost.

Yeah, and he's, but I think he's gone to like seven Pro Bowls in eight years or eight and nine or something crazy. I know that's not always the metric to use for, but he, and Caleb's a lot. little bigger than him. I don't know if Caleb is as athletic as Buda Baker is, but he's, I wouldn't doubt Caleb Downs just because I think his level of preparation and his smarts, and he is a good athlete. I think sometimes we're going to get, you know, he's in this room of freaks, you know, with Sunny Stiles. We haven't even talked about him. He's crazy athletic. And you just look at all the other guys in some ways that can be held against you because it's like, oh, you got all these, you know, Marvel characters playing on the same defense.

But I think he's also a guy who helps make it go. And you give him credit for learning three defenses in three years, right? It was it was Sabin's defense that he learned super fast, like probably faster than any other DB. And then you look at what he did for what Patricia was a really good defense. And obviously Jim Knowles before that. So it's, I wouldn't doubt him. I just, you know, nickel to me is is a hard, is a hard prediction to make in terms of who jumps into it seamlessly in the NFL with, with what you see in the NFL compared to what you may see in college, where there's just, you know, I just feel like there's, there's, there's a lot of, I don't say dead spots on, on NFL, on college football, 22, you know, starting 22. There's some really weak spots, even at a, you know, even in a power conference.

But that's the one piece. I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. I mean, I think you know what he can do. I just don't know. Is he going to make his living as a nickel? I'd be curious to see how that plays out.

This is in Dane's scouting report in The Beast, which I encourage everyone to go dig through. But it's something I've heard, too. It's like he just, he wasn't asked to like turn and run with guys in coverage on a very regular basis. Yeah, playing downhill more often than not. Yeah, that makes sense. Not to say he can't do it.

I just don't think he was asked to do it very often. So I don't know. All right. Let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a couple more guys. Bruce, the next guy on your list, speaking of players who played in the college football playoff this year, was Keante Scott from Miami, who is the number 53 player on Dane's big board.

Why are people wrong about Keante Scott so far in this process? You know what? If you watch the playoff and one of the kind of more eye-population, in games was Miami upsetting Ohio State. Kianti Scott changed the game, right? He jumps her out. He blows past Jeremiah Smith and scores. And that was a microcosm of Kianti Scott for Miami in 2025.

I mean, he was the guy behind the scenes that everybody inside the program raves about in terms of what he brought to the team. It's interesting because I remember talking to a DB coach at a different school who evaluated him because they thought, you know, he was in the portal. He was like, you know, his Auburn tape in 2024 was not great. He was like, at Miami, he was a completely different player. Now, it was a different system. Corey Heatherman, the defense coordinator, ran.

But this is a guy who plays with a real edge, you know, was a really good blitzer, made a ton of big plays, triggers. And I think he'd be interesting as a nickel. I don't know if he's a top 50 pick. I had him going somewhere in the second round. I don't know if he's a late second, early third. I mean, he's not got great size. He did run really well at Miami's Pro Day.

He's a little older also. He's probably two years older than I think teams, you know, most of the guys in his class who are coming out. But the playmaking ability from him is pretty special and big plays. And I know from talking to coaches in the ACC, I did not realize I did a story at one point when it looked like it was Miami and Notre Dame were kind of battling to see who was going to get what it felt like. it was going to be that last playoff spot.

Remember, Miami had beat upset Notre Dame in the opener, but Notre Dame was ranked higher in the CFP rankings for most of the run of that. And so I talked to a bunch of coaches who played both Miami, Notre Dame, and one of the coaches was an offensive coordinator. Kianti Scott got banged up in November, but he was like, he makes them different.

He is the guy, because they had been, even when they had Bain and Mezzador, they were a really underwhelming defense in 2024. The defense coordinator played a big role, but Keante Scott played a really big role in getting it changed. I would not be surprised if he has, you know, he's a guy you watch in the NFL on Sundays and he pops up on a lot of highlights making a bunch of big plays. Man, he, you're right.

You're obviously you're right, Bruce. He got hurt toward the end of the regular season. And I remember talking about it with Dane and he got back in time for that playoff game against Texas A&M. and proceeded to have 10 tackles and two sacks in a defensive slug fest where Miami holds on to prevent the tying score at the end of the game. He's, I mean, top, top 10 most fun tape.

Not saying like best player or anything, but put on a few of Keante Scott's performances and you'll just, you'll have a blast. It's better than any like blockbuster movie you could put on. He's everywhere. He's around the ball. Robert, you talk about Florida. a state, just guys looking

a certain way in the uniform. Of course the Miami thing does the exact same thing. Miami's just loaded with these just assholes in a complimentary way who just play with attitude and are around the football and they're a joy

to watch. Kianti Scott is yeah, he's definitely a pet cat in this draft class. And there's just all the layers to why a guy like this might fall a little bit where he's a little bit undersized. He's gotten a little bit banged up. He's a little bit older. And with DB specifically,

there's, I'm trying to think of a couple good examples of this. I think Javon Holland was a player like this, where I just, you look at what they did in college, and you just look at production. Like ball production for college defensive backs often will follow guys from one level to the other. And the fact that Keante Scott finished this season,

with 13 TFLs, five sacks, seven passes, defense, and two interceptions. That's the type of stuff where, we can hem and haul about some of the physical profile stuff, the fact that he's a little bit older, the guy can clearly impact the game consistently. And so it feels like guys like that Bruce will often fall a little bit further into the second round than they probably should.

And then they end up becoming really productive pro players. Yeah, I think sometimes there's something you may not like on film that you see that gives you a little bit of pause. But, you know, I go back to the guys who've faced him and they're like, he is a huge pain in he asked to play against because he makes i i honestly there's two guys miami's defense had that i did not realize they were as good as they are or were last year one was him the other one's amad motin who's a defensive tackle who could be a you know who i imagine it'll be a first round pick in 2027 but like those two guys when you talk to you know like everybody talked about bane because obviously he was just a

complete ass kicker and you would hear some about mesador but it was those two guys you hear the most about. And just from being around, like I went down to Miami and Spring Ball, the coaches would talk about the intangibles that he brought, that Scott brought, which I, you know, like the other coaches don't know about that. If you're not, you know, if you're playing them, maybe you've heard it, but you're only seeing what you see on film or on the field. The Miami coaches what they talk about is what they get from him before and after practice.

You know, when they show up to work at 5.30 and they look outside, their window and who's on the indoor or whatever. Like those are the things that I think do bode well. But as you said, he's not the biggest and he's one of the older, you know, safeties in there are nickels in there. So he's going to be an, he's going to be an interesting evaluation. But when he gets drafted, he's going to probably, as Dave said, he's probably going to have the most fun highlight package.

And I know this in Mario Cristobal's office, there is a picture. It is a, it's like poster sized of him sprinting with the ball under his arm and Jeremiah Smith just standing, you know, like kind of looking bewildered as he's blowing past him. The last guy on your list here, Dave, is Kristen Miller from Georgia, the defensive tackle. He is number 43 on Dane's big board. Why are people wrong or why have they been wrong about Miller in this process? So I learned this over the years. You're usually not going to get very far if you try to ask people what their team is thinking.

you're like, hey, what are, what are y'all, what are y'all going to do? And you'll leave, A, you might not get an answer at all. And B, they'll be like, ah, come on. Or like, like, that's above my pay grade. So the trick is just ask people who they love. Like, hey, screw, screw the, screw the board. Screw what the team says. Who do you love?

And I ask, I've asked that question over the last few months. And I've named that I've heard a couple times and I wanted to highlight him is Kristen Miller because, and again, I love I love taking a minute to think about where we were in August because obviously Georgia D tackle 6-4, 321 pounds. It's no coincidence. He's really tight with Jordan Davis and Jalen Carter from his time in the program with those guys. So Dane and I were on this guy initially like, hey, big hulking Georgia D tackle makes a hell of a lot of sense to watch him and keep an eye on him. not not that impressive of a season at the end of the day you know i think he i think he's got

three career sacks seven seven tackles for loss over the last like two seasons and you go back and watch it it's it's certainly not bad but this is not the jaylon carter just hulks smashing two offensive guards together tape that gets you up in your seat and really excited to talk about a guy So that was my impression of him during the course of the football season where I was like, okay, like he's a good player, but I don't know what to do with this. And that's kind of been the narrative on Kristen Miller since the season ended where, you know, he's Danes DT3. I think the consensus big board has him as like the fifth D tackle off the board.

He's firmly in the 40s. But then I talked to the people and they're like, no, this guy rocks. This guy's awesome. You should go watch this guy. He rocks. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. did this guy rocks it is not it is not tape like i said that's gonna make you freak out or like

there's not all these crazy sacks and tackles for loss but he is just a really really big athletic man who can move really really impressively for a guy that size and i will say having spent the last couple days revisiting him i'm like oh man if you could just finish a little better people would be gushing about you like you like there were so many opportunities there for more plays that just got a little bit away from him. And I think he would be on more people's radar. And very similar to what I said about Malachi Lawrence, where I can't sit here and guarantee he's going to be a first round pick.

But I think the league likes this guy a lot more than those of us on the outside. His Alabama tape is impressive. Oh, my God. I watched this morning. I like, he is, and we're talking about Kristen Miller from Georgia, just to keep put throwing the names in there. just unbelievably stout against the run. Like you just see what the translatable skill is

immediately upon turning that tape on. He is abusing guys in the Alabama game, like throwing him out the club all over the place. He was the other guy that I was going to double up where I was glad Dave had him. One of the D-Line coaches I talked to, he's his number one guy, he told me. And this is a guy I've known for a while,

and he just could not stop once we got to Kristen Miller. He said, first of all, to come out of that program as a DeLyman and to finish it. He's like, you know he's been well coach and you know he knows what he's doing. He's got, he's got, you know, really strong hands, you know, really clean eyes. He knows exactly, he's been very, very well coach, well schooled. He thinks this guy, like, this is not a great defensive tackle group, right? You know, there's some people who can talk themselves into Caden McDonald, who's a nose,

and maybe he's a late first rounder. I think, you know, Caleb Banks is from Florida, kind of the boom. or bust guy where people have some doubts about him, you know, but like, I don't know if this is, you know, I think the DT1 through DT5, I bet you this guy is on more is probably a number one guy for a couple of people. I was a little surprised to see him going as late in the 40s based on what I've been hearing from the coaches I've talked to in the NFL over the last two weeks, but we'll see. I mean, I'm with you, Dave. I think he's, I think he's undervalued right now. And I think some of that is just Georgia, right?

Like they rotate their guys a lot. Like he averaged something like 30 defensive snaps a game. Like they're just constantly moving guys in and out. And yeah, the variety of different things they asked him to do. Like I watched, I did watch Alabama this week and I think I watched the Tennessee game too. And every other snap, he's moving from zero to one technique to four eye. I think there's some three technique snaps in there. They just got him going all over the place.

And like I said, it's, I wish there's, there's half a dozen snaps where I'm like, oh, if you had finished that, you'd have twice as many TFLs or you'd have two more sacks on your stat sheet and maybe people on the outside would be talking a little bit more about you than they are right now. Robert, can you refresh my memorand over there for the first round? But I know obviously Derek Harmon from Oregon. I know Walter Nolan from Ole Miss. Who else were the defensive tackles last year?

Because it was definitely a better group than what we got now. So last year, Tileak Williams ended up going in the first round. He was 28th overall for the Lions. I feel like the Lions might not love the way that's played out so far from what I heard. And then there's a couple other guys in the early second round who really didn't do a ton last year. Like T.J. Sanders was the 41st overall pick. Alfred Collins went 43rd. So after those two guys, I mean, Derek Harmon going 20th or 21st, he was somebody that was

incredibly productive, but it was really Kenneth Grant, Walter Nolan, Derek Harmon at the top. And then Mason Graham, obviously, who was like, that was just a different tier of prospects of the guys we were talking about here. But it's still much better than what we have this year from this year. Absolutely. Absolutely. Way better. And with Miller specifically, I think there are two different things.

One, like, you talk about those guys who, you know, defense tackle one through defense tackle five, what are you seeking out? Again, I just think that he has the clearest utility because he's such a good run defender. Like, in this world where we're, playing with these light boxes and you just need to do something to be a speed bump for teams against the run on early downs. You know exactly

what he's bringing you almost immediately. I mean, there was a play where I watched him like stalemate Kate and Proctor in the hole. And that is just not something that a lot of guys are doing. Like I, you put him as like a four down nose on early downs and immediately your run defense is getting better. And on the past

rush, the answer as to why a guy like this would fall is he there's no athletic testing. He tore his labor in January, and he doesn't look that explosive on tape. And the pass rush production is next to zero. And I think there are explanations for that. One, is he's not that explosive of a player. And two, similar to what Dave was saying,

you watch the way that he's used. They run so many stunts and games and pressures that he'll be starting as a shade and then he'll be rushing in the C gap because they're running some sort of stunt. And so there aren't as many like one-on-one pass-rush opportunities for him but even on those, you just don't see a ton of juice compared to maybe what you'd want in the first round.

All that being said, I don't really give a shit. Like what he's going to give you as a run defender immediately, the guy is a badass. I think people, understandably so, I get it. I'm not talking shit, but people fixate so much on pass rush. And that is important. But like if a guy like Kristen Miller, if his floor is just as a phenomenal run defender

who's going to make life easier on five other guys. If that's his floor and then his ceiling is, holy shit, this, like, he's one of those. I mean, that, that is an admirable goal. But even if he never gets above his floor, that's still so incredibly valuable. And not to bring Caleb Downs back into it, but I do think, like, I've covered the draft for 12 years at this point. And every single year, we're fixated on the pass rush. and we don't care about run defense.

And the NFL is screaming at us right now. That run defense matters. This stuff's important. And so I'm done turning my nose up at guys who do that because, yes, it is cool when you find one of those freaks who is a great run defender and can have eight sacks. But if all he is is a trash can full of dirt that makes everybody else look good, that's still really nice to. That is what he is.

And so there's a lot of appeal to a player like that. Bruce, the last guy in your list here was trading Stukes from Arizona. You're just loving these 24 and a half year old, like five-year college players who are smarter shit and are doing things all over the place. Why do you think people have been wrong about trading Stukes? He's probably the fourth of four safeties who I think could be day one starters. I think he's really talented. It's crazy to me that he was a walk on. That's how he came to college.

Yeah. He was 150 as a senior in high school. He weighed 150 pounds. That's why he had no offers. Yeah, I mean, there are stories of guys like that, but usually they're slots. They're not, you know, DBs and everything. But he, you know, what did he run? 433 or something at his pro day.

He made a ton of plays. And it shows up. When you watch him play, the speed is there. That's not one where, like, you see the time speed. And you're like, oh, really, that guy ran 433. You see those moments when you watch Trayden Stukes. Yeah, you know, he can, he can definitely cover. He can play the point.

There's a lot of things he can do. The other thing that bodes well for him, Dwayne Akeena, his old coach at Arizona, he's probably developed his resume for developing high level NFL players at Arizona the first time at Texas. There's been a bunch of dudes he has helped develop into really big time NFL players. You know, I think this guy is probably the most underrated of all the safeties just because, again, you know, people I've talked to who coached the position in the NFL think he can be a lot of. a day one starter. And I think that when I first started hearing that, because I was like, oh, yeah,

I really like that player. Because we did a lot of Arizona games, you know, where I work at Fox. You know, I'm in studio for a bunch of them. I felt like we had Arizona six or seven times last year. And he just showed up and made a ton of plays. Like the other guy who's like that, who makes a ton of plays, Bud Clark, the TCU safety. You know, Bud Clark, I think, I'm pretty sure it was him, had the pick six against Belichick in North Carolina and opening night where everybody's watching, you know, a debacle for,

you know, obviously the greatest NFL coach of all time as he transitioned to college. But Bud Clark makes a lot of plays. I think, I think Stukes is just a notch above him athletically and probably has a little more versatility. But to me, as I said, I think this is the one position where this draft is much better than it usually is, is safety. And I think this guy, this guy is a big part of that. I think the argument is just that he's a little small to be a true safety in the NFL. I think he was like, he's like six foot and change 190. He was 193 at the pro day.

And just reading like some of the weaknesses that Dane was laying out in the beast, it did feel like just some of the frame build concerns might be near the top. Whether you worry if he can hold up. Yeah, because he played a lot. He played nickel was last year in Arizona. So like is that small for safety? But the guy that I was thinking about, maybe again, it's just recency bias when it comes to what works.

in the NFL and what doesn't. Like Kobe Bryant moving to from being a corner to being a safety. Kobe Bryant's 6-1-193, and he's held up at safety just fine in like the modern version of the NFL. I think Robert is how they get coached. I remember this is, you know, again, I don't want to, I'm not trying to compare him to Ed Reed, but I remember doing a big story on Ed Reed for ESPN magazine. I talked to, oh my God, now I'm blanking another defensive coordinator who's Mike

Nolan. Mike Nolan? Michael. And we were talking about. He said, you know, Ed was a little bigger, but Ed was 200 pounds. And he said, you just had to, it was almost like a pitcher where it was like, all right, he's going to be involved this week. And maybe we're not going to, you know, use him the same way the next week. Now, a lot of it was Ed doing what Ed does.

But it was also like, he's not going to play the same way every week because you just worry about the wear and terror and the punishment on on him. But, you know, again, I think he's a guy who can continually, you know, again, I, you said it was 150 pounds you know and i think you know if he if he ends up at 200 pounds there's plenty of guys who continue to physically grow as they get into the uh as they get into the NFL so i don't know i would i would take chances on the playmaking ability on the smarts and the range i mean he definitely the way he sees the field is pretty special again there's a lot i really liked about him but i get why there's a little bit of hesitation of the physicality part, but it definitely shows up at times.

It is a fun year to need a safety, but that doesn't mean we have to devalue Caleb Downs. Like both things can be true. Yeah. I mean, when I watched Stoakes today, I hadn't watched him prior to preparing for this show. And you watch some of the recovery ability and the speed and like, he's clearly really, really smart. And so I, that's somebody that I'm intrigued by him. And like where he plays, I think will be a question, but he's played all over the place. And him is a guy in that second round just feels like he'd be somebody you'd want to bet on in your secondary. And like there are a lot of those guys, right?

There are a lot of safeties into the second round of this draft where it feels like they could come in and be potential starters. And it absolutely seems like he's in that conversation. All right. That is all we've got for today. A couple notes before we get out of here. One, if you are not listening to Bruce Feldman and Stu Mandel on the audible, highly encourage you guys to make that part of your college football podcast rotation here over the next year. Two, Bruce will be joining us for the draft show in Chicago on night one, be the same group we had last year, plus Dave Helman, which we are very much looking forward to.

So please be on the lookout for that. We're going to be coming to you on night one and night two from the studio. For now, that is all we've got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating.

We'll see you next time.