The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The best-case scenarios and biggest flaws for the 2025 quarterback draft class

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

We've enjoyed two straight drafts with star-studded quarterback classes. This year's class...is not that. Still, it provides its fair share of intrigue. The Titans seem to have settled on Cam Ward as the top pick in the draft. Shedeur Sanders could go with the second pick, or in the second round. Jaxson Dart, Tyler Shough and Jalen Milroe all could find themselves in advantageous spots this summer. Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dane Brugler dig deep into the 2025 quarterback class on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.The guys also discuss the Russell Wilson and Stefon Diggs signings, and how those moves affect the draft.RundownRussell Wilson signs with the GiantsStefon Diggs signs with the PatriotsCam WardShedeur SandersJaxson DartTyler ShoughJalen MilroeFill out The Athletic's listener survey. Three people will win $100 in vouchers at Amazon: theathletic.com/athletic/survey25Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Dane BruglerExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Quarterback Day is here. One of my favorite shows that we do every single year. We've done this, I think, each of the last five years, as long as we've been doing the podcast, digging into this year's crop of draftable quarterbacks. We talked about five guys today, and the reason we cut it off there was, one, this is already a 90-minute show. Two, these are the five guys that were in Dane's top 64 on his big board. So players that theoretically could go in the first two rounds. And those are guys that you draft as either day one starters or potential starters when we think about the investment. So that's where we cut it off.

Cam Ward, Chador Sanders, Jackson Dart, Tyler Shuck, J.1. Milrow. Those are the five guys we really dove into. Strengths, weaknesses, best case scenarios, where would you like to see them end up? Really fun show. Before we started digging into the quarterbacks, me Derek and Dane, chatted a little bit about the news from yesterday. Russell Wilson is a New York giant. talked about that from both a football perspective, NFL perspective for the Giants, but also how it might affect the draft.

And then a little bit of other news yesterday is Stefan Diggs. Three years, $69 million deal, $26 million guaranteed with the New England Patriots. How might that affect the way that New England goes at the top of this year's draft? So very excited to get to all of that. Let's dig in with Dana Derek right now. Well, it's about that time. It's late March digging into our draft coverage here on the athletic football show. One of our early shows is always that year's draftable quarterbacks, and that is what we're doing today.

Here to help me dig into this year's crop, I got two guys. First off, this is my co-host here at the Athletic Football Show. It's Derek class. And Derek, how you doing, man? I'm doing fantastic. This is the quarterbacks are what I'm here for. It's what I got started doing, like, basically a decade ago at this point, which feels crazy. And even though it's not, you know, maybe the most exciting quarterback class, I can still get myself up to talk about them.

There's plenty of guys that we're going to dig into. It is going to be a fun conversation, even if it isn't the hell. headline grabbing group that we had last year. Also here to help give us an education. It is our draft expert at the athletic. Dan Bruegler. Dan, how you feeling? I'm good. I'm good.

We're at the five-yard line with the beast, so we're close to getting that all the way done. Yeah, just some final pro. It's a big week for pro days. We had Cam Ward at the beginning of the week and Ohio State's today, LSU. So, you know, Will Campbell's arms grew, which is awesome for him. But his wingspan shrunk. Just a little bit.

A grain of rice, a little bit shorter. Yeah, the lack of consistency is bizarre. But you know what? Scouts are going to take, because they're done, the measurements are done by NFL scouts at both places and at All-Star games. The teams are going to take the best, whether it's a time or a measurement. They're going to take the better of those times or measurements. So the bigger number.

So good news for Will Campbell coming at 33 inches with the arm length. Like I mentioned on yesterday's show, we're going to talk about five. five quarterbacks today. And the reason that we're zeroing in on those five quarterbacks is that these are the five guys that are the highest on Dane's big board. And the cutoff that I had was guys drafted inside the top 64. So players that reasonably, based on how you have them graded, could go in the first two rounds, which is how we think about potential starters in the NFL, right? If you're drafted in the first two rounds, that's kind of an eye-opening move for a team to make. So there are five guys that we're going to dig into today. Cam Ward, Shedore Sanders, Jackson Dart, Tyler Shuck, Jalen Milrow.

obviously we'll spend more time on the top two guys. You have them both in your top 30. So there are potential first round picks, you know, guys that we've been talking about throughout this process. But those are the five guys we're going to hit on today. Before we do that, this always happens. We had kind of a quiet show yesterday where we had a little bit of space. And then obviously all of the news happens after we're done recording that.

So we have to hit it today. The New York Giants signed Russell Wilson, one year, 10.5 million, up to 21 million, that up to doing a lot of heavy lifting with the Russell Wilson contract. It always does, but this case specifically, I think it's getting a good little work out there. Derek, your initial reaction to Russell Wilson joining James Winston in the New York Giants quarterback room? I mean, that might be the funniest part of it is just the collection of personalities in that room, I think is a funny one.

But to me, this doesn't, I think it probably does move me off the idea that I thought going into literally like three days ago. I was like, okay, the Giants are going to take Shadur Sanders, if the Cleveland Browns don't. Obviously, we don't know what they're going to do it too. Now I'm not so certain they're going to do that because I feel like even though, again, the up to and the Russell Wilson contract is doing a lot of heavy lifting, this a little bit feels like a regime that has decided that they need to win games today, which again, I don't know how many games Russell Wilson actually gives you today. Yeah, that's my response to that. Is Does this actually accomplish what they're hoping it accomplishes?

Probably not, but I'm just, now I think that there's a world where they thought maybe that accomplishes that a little bit better than a rookie Shadur Sanders would. So, again, I don't know that they have many good options, but maybe they just thought that this was the best one left. When you saw this, Dane, did you just assume this meant we're not getting Shadur Sanders at three, or do you think this has no impact on that? My initial thought was, okay, this is Shadur insurance. If we don't, if Shador goes two, then, okay, we still feel okay with going into the season with Russell Wilson as our starter.

In terms of our best option at this point in the calendar, they're going to draft a quarterback, whether it's at three or at some point on day two. And, you know, we'll have a Shador conversation here in a minute. But it feels like that is the direction they would go if he's there at three. We don't know what the Browns are going to do at two. I don't think the Browns are going to take Shadora 2, but you just never know. And so if he's off the border at 2, they aren't scrambling and saying, all right, well, I guess Tyler Shucks are, he's an opening quarterback. So Russell Wilson at least gives them a fallback plan in the case that quarterback situation

in the draft doesn't work out exactly the way they want. That's kind of how I see it too. 10.5 million is just a small markup on what Sam Donald got last year. We know exactly what the Vikings did. They still drafted a quarterback in the first round after signing Sam Donald in free agency. It is a little bit of insurance. And maybe I'm seeing this through too cynical of a lens, Derek. But as I think about the Giants' motivations here, the only thing that's going through my mind is,

how can we sell this to keep our jobs? Like, what is the best series of decisions for us to make in order to justify another year? And so as I'm thinking about this playing out, you sign Russell Wilson's to a $10 million deal as insurance just in case, okay, if we need a quarterback, he can play. And if you draft Shadour, then kind of no matter how the season goes, let's say it doesn't go well. Let's say you're sitting there in week six and you're two and four. And you're like, ah, we got to go to the young guy. Then that gives you two chances to justify another season.

Even if your win-loss record isn't very good, if the young guy plays in the back half of the season and he shows some flashes, maybe you can argue that what happens in the win-loss column over the course of this year doesn't actually matter. That might be too cynical of a way of thinking about it, but that's kind of how I've been conceiving of their thought process. So I think that probably is their thought process. When is the last time that's actually worked for a coaching staff? It never works. It never, ever, ever works.

Right. So, like, what is the point of that? Also, the other thing is, I don't necessarily disagree that them signing Russell Wilson is, like, a contingency plan for if Sanders isn't there. I just thought that that's what James Winston already was. So now I'm confused that they're, like, doubling down on a quarterback that is, like, more or less in the same tier.

Like, it's just like, they're just adding contingency after contingency to, if they, if they don't get on, uh, onto Shadir Sanders. It's like, all right, I guess we'll have the Russell Wilson-Jamus Winston quarterback competition. It is an interesting room if you are going to draft Shador because James is on a two-year $8 million deal. It's not nothing, but it's not something that would prevent you from making other moves. So if they do end up drafting a quarterback at three and it is Shadur Sanders,

we are seriously looking at the most compelling quarterback room from a personality perspective. I think we've ever seen, Dane. You have an aging, borderline Hall of Fame quarterback, who we know is an interesting dynamic in any building that he's in.

You have James Winston, which is an entirely different conversation. And then you have Chador, which on top of the fact that he would be a top three pick in this case, there's all the personality conversations that come along with him. So the management of that room,

I believe Shay Tierney is their quarterback's coach at this point still. So the job that him and Mike Kafka are going to have to be doing, Dane, is an amount of juggling that I don't think we've ever seen in the modern NFL when it comes to all the guys in that sort of room. Oh, there's no doubt. And this is just the ultimate example of quarterback desperation, right? I mean, we're just, we're going to try this. We're going to try this. We're going to try this.

And let's see if it works. I don't know. And I get it because I kind of feel for Joe Shane a little bit. You think about the last two years, like they wanted to trade up for Drake May. They wanted to go up. they would have loved to move up for Jane Daniels. Top three teams weren't moving for one of those, for in a trade away from one of those quarterbacks.

This year they were just bad enough where, okay, you're at three and quarterbacks might go one too. So again, you're kind of boxed out of getting a quarterback high in the draft that ideally you want. So they're at a point where they have to kind of be creative with the way they're going to piece this together and hope for the best, which is not a great strategy, but it's kind of the best that they have at this point. and so we'll see how it works out.

Let's get to the other big bit of news that came out like five minutes after the Russell Wilson signing happened. It all happened in very quick succession. Stefan Diggs to the New England Patriots, three years, $69 million. That's a big number. The guaranteed number is 25. That's a little bit of a smaller number, which I think is probably a more accurate representation of what this deal is.

Derek, we've talked about this, the idea of Diggs potentially going to New England, what that means for the complexion of the Patriots offense, but also for their search for receiver as part of this draft process. How are you squaring the Diggs move with where the Patriots need to go in that room? So I think first off with the money, and we've said this a million times, this year and next year they have more money than anybody could spend. So I think like, you know, people are saying, oh, you know, Diggs is older and he's coming off the ACL.

Do you want to pay him that much? I don't even care. Like they couldn't spend all of this money anyway. It makes sense to go get a guy who, at least in the past, has been a true wide receiver one. And even last year when he was healthy, was still a solid. auxiliary receiver for the Houston Texans. They just had the worst offensive line in football.

I still think to me this year for Drake May is about solidifying the offensive line, hopefully drafting a left tackle, making sure that they can just keep him upright, and letting the young receivers potentially take a step there. Like again, I think Drake May is already so promising to me that he doesn't need the safety blanket wide receiver. So if Diggs can just provide any value over, you know, I guess it would have been like Kishon Booty probably starting in a similar. rural last year, then that is enough, even if it's not up to the $69 million that they're paying him.

My only concern about this was what this would potentially do to opportunities for young players. If you were to draft somebody, you cutting off pathways to playing time by signing a guy like Stefan Diggs. But there's a chance that they can still draft somebody with one of those two third round picks or even in the second round if they wanted to and play that guy next to Diggs if they think that Jalen Polk is kind of a lost cause. So, Dane, I think we're going to find out a lot about the way this new Patriots regime views some of the younger players on the roster by how they handled their pursuit of receiver in the draft now that they have digs on the team. Yeah, no doubt.

And it doesn't change wide receivers still being in need for this team. It's not like they're going to pivot away from the position. You know, I think all signs point to them going offensive line at number four or if Travis Hunter or Abdul-Carter are there at four as opposed to the top receiver on the board. but once you get to day two, rounds two, round three, it's not the deepest wide receiver class. So there's a chance they find themselves in a position like they were last year where receivers are getting wiped out and they're forced to go with plan F.

And this year, it's probably a likelihood that could happen again with just the lack of receiving talent in rounds two, rounds three. So if the two Iowa State guys are gone, if Jalen Royals from Utah State is off the board, you know, there's only so many receivers I think this team is going to have have as true day two picks. And adding a guy like Stefan Diggs helps take a little bit of the sting away if they're not able to get the guy they want on day two.

I understand going out and getting a digs because you need some competency for your young quarterback. You want to give him something to work with heading into year two with all the money that you have. I think you can kind of say the same thing about left tackle though. And that's why I just think that their lack of urgency in addressing this spot, you can justify it because your options essentially. were Dan Moore for $22 million a year, or 21, whatever he made.

It was 20-something, that's what matters here. A backup left tackle from last year who made $15 million a year in jail and more. And Cam Robinson. Those were your options in free agency. You can cut them on one hand. So if those were not appealing to you, I understand bypassing them. But, Dan, that leaves you with a massive hole still left tackle. And if you pass on one at four, we know the hit rate on guys outside of the top

30 as starting young left tackles. Ask the chiefs how that went last year. There's a lot of volatility there. So as they continue to make other moves and leave that spot unaddressed, justifiable based on who was out there. But it kind of says to me, like, we need to address this very early if we want even a shot at capable left tackle play for our second year quarterback.

Yeah, we need to thread the needle here. That's kind of what they're telling themselves. And whether that's at four or in round two, it'll be interesting. that does do the lake ursery enough from Minnesota to take him at that point. Mike Vrable was in Columbus talking with Josh Simmons, the Ohio State left tackle, who is as talented as it gets when it comes to left tackle prospects. But there's medical red flags. Some of the interviews didn't go great with some of the teams.

So maybe if he's there at 25, do the Patriots talk about moving up to in the late first round to go get to Josh Simmons? If they go, say, I mean, I think the ideal scenario would be you get, Travis Hunter, Abdul Carter at four, and then you trade up for a Josh Simmons and the bottom half of round one. I mean, that's, but again, we're threading a needle. And so things are going to have to go exactly right for this to turn into, you know, on draft night, we talk about, you know, winners and losers. Things are going to have to just break right for us to be talking about the Patriots as one of

the true winners of round one. But it's at least possible with the way that this draft class is structured with the tackles. and the Patriots picking early in the rounds. You know, this reminds me of a little bit is the conversation we were having about Washington last year, where they had that top two pick. We knew they were taking a quarterback. They had this big glaring hole at left tackle.

And we all kind of assumed with some of that capital that they had, the additional capital in the second round and the third round after the sweat and young trades, where they try to use some of that ammo to get back into the first round to draft the tackle. They didn't end up doing that. They ended up having to piece together the position this year. And then a year later, they traded a ton of,

wanted to go get Laramie Tunsell because they still needed one. So that's the situation to me, Derek, that's the most analogous to this is what happened with Washington last year. They didn't end up stretching themselves for the tackle. They piecemeal it together and survived. I wonder if the Patriots might have to do something similar if it doesn't fall a certain way for them. Well, I almost, this feels to me a little bit more like what the Titans are doing with Cam Ward,

it seems like, where it's like they do all of these other moves and they had absolutely no interest in signing the Darnolds and all that, any of the other quarterbacks. and they're kind of telling you with their wallet and where they're not spending their money where they think they can go in the draft. And because of the way that probably two quarterbacks are going to go ahead of them and then either one of Carter or Hunter will go,

Campbell is going to be there if they really like him at four. So like they are almost kind of, it seems like pigeonholing themselves into taking Campbell, which by my estimation is fine. I think he's a very good player. The fan base that gets the potentially the biggest heartbreak here is the Jaguars. As they sit here and they pray for Will Campbell to somehow end up or on that,

are my member, whoever they like better, to end up in New England, and they're just praying that Travis Hunter falls to them. And instead, Travis Hunter goes to New England. No chance. It would be a shock if one of the, unless they were really scared about the foot with Abdul Carter, I just, I don't know. It'd be crazy to pass on one of those two guys, Carter or Hunter, if you're the Patriots, just to reach on a tackle.

And I do like, I like Membu, I like Will Campbell. I think it'd be crazy. We'll talk about the picks 2 through 5 or 4 through 5, 4 through 10 a lot over the next month or so. Let's zero in on who might be the number one pick in this draft and let's start talking about these quarterbacks. There are a lot of signs here pointing to Cam Ward being the number one pick. It was everybody associated with the Tennessee Titans organization. I mean, the person who serves lunch, the janitorial staff, the people who are working in their front office, the ticketing people, they were all at Cam Ward's Pro Day this week.

they had every meal with Cam Ward and like members of his family. The connection points are really starting to form here. I'm wondering, Dana, is that connection starts getting made and we start just putting him in all these jersey swaps in Tennessee? Do you think that's because Cam Ward is a player who is worthy of the number one pick? Or do you think that's because this is a matter of convenience for where the Titans are right now? Yeah, I mean, I think if you, okay, if Cam Ward were in last year's draft class, he's probably not a top 10 lock.

Now, it's certainly possible maybe, you know, the Giants would have taken him at six or the Vikings could have taken him at 10 over McCarthy. And it's not to say that Ward's not a very promising prospect because he is. But, you know, if Drake May were in this, if he stayed for his fourth year at North Carolina and he's in this draft class, he's clearly the number one overall pick. So the way that this draft class has played out,

not being strong a quarterback, it just, it kind of works out that Cam Ward is going to, because at this point last year, Kim Ward is a fourth round pick. He, you know, he was the feedback he got from Scouts, because he initially entered last year's draft. Scouts told him, hey, early day three, fourth, fifth round, maybe you get that bump and you get into the top 100 picks. He decides to transfer.

Miami gives a lot of money and he's able to kind of switch the narrative. And now we're talking about him as a number one overall pick. And, you know, the strongest selling point with Cam Ward is the fact that he's gotten better and better every single year at every stop high school to incarnate word to Washington State now at Miami and you know you think that that will continue you know he's the intangibles that's the skill set there's a lot of things going for him but it just you know there's a there's a heaviness that comes with being the number one overall pick and I think you could you know when you go back and look at the history of quarterbacks taking number one overall like some years it's like oh yeah

no brainer should have went number one overall other years it's like okay you know maybe if this quarterback were in a different class, we're talking about him as the eighth overall pick. And so, you know, it just, the circumstances matter a whole lot. But yes, Cam Moore is the best quarterback in his class. He projects as a starter. And there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic about what he's going to be moving forward.

What were those flaws that maybe showed up more at Washington State or during his time and incarnate word that you think he improved on heading into this year? Just to get people a little bit of context about where those strides have come in his game. It's just a looseness to his. And you still see that. You know, there's a very, he's a very loose passer. And ball handler, just the way he operates. Sometimes it still shows up where it's leading the turnovers.

You know, he's on the edge a lot of times. You know, thinking about the Cal game from this past year, where he throws a terrible interception and then, but you know what? He's good enough where in the final minutes he's able to lead Miami back win the game. But when you are that close to the sun, you're going to get burned sometimes. And okay, Georgia Tech, some of those mistakes caught up with him.

And so at Washington State, it was so loose with the interceptions, turnovers, just not operating and executing at the level that you need to from a consistency standpoint. But at Miami, with, you know, better talent around him, you know, I would argue, you know, better protection, just a better offensive infrastructure. Really like with Shannon Dawson's doing the offensive coordinator there. I think it all came together for him and he was able to take that next step. So it was a really great match for Miami and for Ward as a quarterback and his development. And it's obviously worked out because he looks like the clear favorite to go number one.

I would also say one of the smaller differences with him is because I was with the bleach report last year and I was doing offensive skill players. And so I had had a scouting report ready for him. And then obviously like you said, he went back. I didn't think Cam Ward was at all a very good quick game pastor. His timing, some of his placement in that area at Washington State could be pretty choppy. I do think it at Miami, on top of all the other stuff you mentioned, he actually got to be a more consistent quick game passer. I still think it's never going to be the best part of his game, almost in the way that like,

that's not the best part of Gino Smith's game. He's just good at other stuff. I think there's kind of some similarities there, but it is something he did get better at, in my opinion. If you're building a scouting report for Cam Ward, Derek, and you're just filling out the top three or so bullet points, what do those notes look like for? you after you went in and studied him. So I would say it just kind of first off at the top, even just without necessarily

looking to film, like Dane said, his ability to have improved every single year is like incredibly important. The example I always go back to is Lamar Jackson. Like you watch what he was as a freshman. You could see the talent and you could see like a natural feel for the position, but he didn't quite know how to play it yet. And obviously by the time he's a junior, he's one of the most polished quarterback prospects and I've ever seen.

I thought he was incredible. Cam Ward, I think you start with that. also just the physical tools with Ken Ward. He's not the biggest guy. I think he's like 6-1 and change, but he's got a bulkier build at like 220. He's a really good athlete, like a guy who I think is not necessarily going to be

in that Josh Allen tier, but could get you three, 400 yards rushing if you really needed him to. And then the arm talent, it's not, he probably has like a B plus level arm in terms of, you know, the velocity he can get,

how comfortably he can throw down the field. But to me what like really pushes it over the top is he just has this malleability where he can find, these weird arm angles and like throw off platform and he never seems like it's uncomfortable for him. And that to me when you look at all of the top quarterbacks in the league like Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, they all have that quality. And so those to me are the selling points.

And then also just I'm going to fall for the guy who will throw the seam route no matter what every time. And Cam Ward doesn't, man. And again, like Dan said, sometimes he's flying a little bit too close to the sun. But I'm okay with getting burned in that particular. way a few a few times. We talk about this all the time. I come to this very late. I admit this.

I come to it much later than most people do. And so my first experience with Cam Ward is studying him for the show over the last week or so. And I was texting Derek about this last night. Weird player. Just a weird player. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But the arm angle stuff is the first thing that jumps out. Just naturally, even when he's not trying to change his arm slot, he drops that thing down a lot more

than most quarterbacks would. He has more of a sidearm delivery than almost any quarterback I can remember studying over the last four or five years. That's just naturally what he looks like throwing the ball. But when he needs to, he really can drop it and be creative in the throws that he can make. And it almost mitigates some of the frame concerns, which might seem counterintuitive. If he's dropping down his arm as a 6-2 quarterback, wouldn't that actually be a problem? But his ability to find windows when he does that, Dane, actually works to his favor more than to his detriment, even though he's a little bit smaller.

As a former shortstop, my arm just hurts watching him throw the ball. It just throbs because it's, you're right. And it's very snappy. His release, it doesn't matter. It really is very snappy,

very fluid. And that's why he's so good in the RPO game, because it's quick load and fire. I mean, the ball comes out, flick of the wrist. I really like how elusive he is in the pocket. And I think that plays a part.

He's a really innate feel for just casually operating around the pressure, and that allows him to find some of those windows. I'm not comparing him to Mahomes as a passer, but as a scrambler, they are very similar, where they're not fast, but they run with this, I don't know, the savvy to just the way as they scramble where they're going to get what the defense gives them. And, you know, sometimes he's even kind of not mastered like Mahomes, but he's done a good job of slowing up before he gets to the sideline, maybe take an extra hit. There's a casual way that he plays the game.

I think that, you know, he's, you know, with Derek, what you were saying, he's a, he's a very bold passer. And so he is not shy of pushing the ball downfield, trying to thread the needle. 56.1% of his completions last year were over 10 yards. Number one in the FBS. So this is a guy that will push the ball and look for those explosives, look to make plays. and I think he's for a lot of the highlights that people show are him outside the pocket, moving the throwing platform. But he reads really well in structure. I mean, you see anticipation.

You see him be able to understand, okay, this is what the defense is showing me. This is what I need to do. This is, okay, I'm going to work off this read. He's very good at reading and structure. And then when things break down, he can make the big play or things can fall apart. But I think that it's very encouraging that when things, are all going according to plan, he's a very good quarterback. He doesn't need that, you know, he doesn't need to play backyard football where things falling apart for him to have success.

Dane, I'm so glad you said that. He is a really good processor. Like he, and then I think that's, again, something that he's improved on since he was, you know, maybe his first year at Washington stayed in 2022, I guess that would have been. I think that's something he's absolutely improved on. And you can tell me if I'm wrong here, it doesn't feel like when he does some of the crazy stuff and makes mistakes and maybe throw some of these interceptions. that he's getting got by the defense very much, like you might see with some of the other quarterbacks, it's just him pushing the envelope a little bit more than he should.

And that, that again feels like five years down the line, if he's a good NFL player, something that you can actually hone and control, whereas, you know, the just getting got and getting beat by defense, is that, that I think takes a little bit more time in actual learning. We'll talk about somebody who I think has that problem at some point

on the show a little bit later. I'm with you on the structure thing. I mean, I remember the Syracuse game specifically. He's ripping multiple. middle of the field throws in rhythm. I mean, Derek, there are a couple like backside digs he's getting to all the way back across the field. I mean, he has the capacity to do that.

And, Dan, you mentioned the snappy throwing motion. And when I was watching him, it's funny, I had an interesting kind of process with this. We'll talk about Comson in a second. But I was impressed with one of my first thoughts is, man, he's a really good athlete. And I'm not talking about explosiveness or speed. The way that he throws the ball, he's just a very explosive rotational athlete. how quickly he's able to get velocity in a tight window because of what type of rotational athlete he is. I think some of that is how thick he is in his lower half.

He is really put together. And his ability to really let that thing rip with that sidearm delivery very quickly, I think that helps him on a bunch of different levels. To me, it was one of the first things that jumped out when you watch him. This is always my favorite, one of my favorite podcasts of the year. Because I purposely don't talk to you guys about the quarterbacks before. I have no idea how you feel about any of these guys. And because you come into the process late,

you bring a very interesting perspective. And so, yeah, it's not confirmation bias, but I think it's interesting that you're seeing the same things I am. But, okay, let's go to the opposite. Some of that hero ball is something that it does bother me. It's something that those forced spur of the moment decisions. Like, it's, each team. That tone is like you talking to your kids.

I know. I'm not mad. I'm disappointed. Yeah. It's just like, you want so much out of him. And the fact, it bothers me. You know what? When you do this, it bothers me.

It does. Every game, there's at least one, if not a few examples of those forced decisions with negative results. And, you know, like I said, the Cal tape, the Georgia Tech tape, the, I mean, every, every single game, there's something. And so one other thing that does bother me is some of the mechanical things, like it affects the nose of the football. I don't know if maybe I'm seeing this, but he'll drop his elbow and it really disrupts the spiral of the football. It creates different angles for the nose of the ball.

And it's just something where. Exactly. And, you know, receivers can adjust. But you just want to be more repeatable with the way the ball is coming out of your hand and, you know, just the mechanics. mechanic side of things. I think that's just something that's, you know, the next step for him as he goes to the next level. I don't think he's an inaccurate quarterback, Derek, but I will say some of the ball placement,

there's something that's left to be desired pretty consistently. Like, he'll put it on a guy, but he'll put it on a back shoulder or it'll be a little bit high. And I think some of the delivery is part of that. And also, he'll drift a little bit. Like, he'll bounce a little bit. And I think that the way he's doing it, here's a comparison I'll make. I think sometimes when Trevor Lawrence is bouncing in the pocket, it will lead to like actual sprays because the bouncing is kind of erratic, right?

It's like a, it's a sudden bouncing. The way that Cam plays, he's so calm in the pocket that it's never going to get to that level where the bouncing and some of the movement is going to lead to sprays. But it is going to lead to imperfections with ball placement. And I think you do see that every once in a while. I think you do. And like Dan mentioned with the flight of the ball, the guys who have lower releases or just whenever, Cam chooses to do it. It's harder to get the ball up and over and get the arc that you want, which I think is

what Dan is talking about, where it's a little bit tougher to control some of your placement in some of those areas. So I do think you see that with Ward. I think the other part of it, and this is why it's actually not as much of a concern for me, I think some of the times where he's like putting it on a back shoulder or throwing it low, all this other stuff, he does a lot of I can beat tight coverage with a weird ball. And like it sometimes just looks inaccurate, but he'll be. be like trying to throw against the leverage of a safety or like just in a weird spot

next to a linebacker. And so sometimes it looks like the receivers having to do extra work. But it's kind of the only spot the ball can go. And again, I love quarterbacks that are willing to do that. And so to me, it's like a little bit less of a concern. You mentioned the layering and the different types of throws. I actually think that's a strength of his. I think he's a very talented thrower. Good touch throws. He's able to layer balls over guys. And I think some of that is that his release is a little bit funky. Dana, I'm curious what you think. When I was watching him. The first game I watched was Florida. And when I was watching the Florida game, he played very well. But stylistically, when I was watching the Florida game, the first guy that

came to mine was Jordan Love. And it was because of how much he was kind of bouncing and drifting in the pocket. And so in mind, I was like, oh, he's like kind of a shorter Jordan Love with a kind of a weird release. Like, that's the first thing that hit my brain. And then as I kept watching him, the comparison that actually made the most sense to me. And it's because of the rhythm that he plays with. You know, it's a little bit less over the time. He's an inch shorter, a little bit thicker. He kind of reminds me of like Texans Deshawn Watson. Yes, that's a great comp, which again, feels sweet to say.

But like he, and honestly, one of the biggest things with Watson coming out of college was he does the hero ball stuff where it's like, why did you throw that? Like, why did you do that? But then when it, when it looks good, it looks, it looked incredible. Yeah, I could see that. I think that makes a lot of sense. Because, yeah, coming out of Clemson, the big, that was the big knock on on Deshawn. was okay yeah why are you throwing that too many interceptions too many uh you know questionable decisions that are just not going to work in the nfl my so okay my comp is he's taller and slower

but there's some kailer murray there from what i say the height and the 40 are going to look very different but some of the drifting some of the reckless habits but also instinctive as a passer can rip accurate strikes from different arm angles just some of the mannerisms, the way they moved reminded me of Murray, just in a very different body type. So I think there's, there's a little bit of that. I definitely see a little bit of Jordan loves, definitely see the Watson. I think that makes sense. Anybody for you, Derek? Comps are tough. You know, you don't have to come up with them for every player, but the Watson thing is like, I don't think I've ever compared a college quarterback to Deshaun Watson, but this is the first

time where I was a weird player. Yeah. And it just, again, it's just like the rhythm that he throws with where there'll be like a little bit of a bounce and then they have like a really springy throwing motion and the ball gets out of their hands quickly. That just, for whatever reason, that's why I tracked to me. So when I watched Cam Ward at Washington State, my first comp was like, he's kind of like if you gave Kyler Murray a little bit more protein, like if he was just a little bit bigger and like, obviously he's a little bit slower too, but like just again, kind of like Dan said, a lot of the stylistic stuff kind of tracks for them.

Their armed talent is fairly similar. So I thought that was a good one. The more I watched him this year, he kind of reminded me a little bit of like if you chopped like Ben Rathosberger at the knees. Like, again, another guy who kind of played to the beat of his own drum, pretty good arm, but maybe not special, was willing to throw balls that maybe shouldn't have been thrown. But more often than not, it worked out for him because he was so good at finding that.

So that's kind of where I've landed with him. So you think, I was going to ask you, Dan, the flaw that you're most concerned about with him. So do you think it's the decision making or do you think it's some of the mechanical stuff? Which one is more concerning in your mind? Yeah, I think it's definitely the hero ball. Just, you know, understanding. what he can get away with and what he shouldn't, the throws that he shouldn't make.

And, you know, he, the improvements that he made, just from 2023 to 2024, I think give me plenty of optimism that that will continue as he figures out. Because again, just for background that people don't know,

he was a winged tee quarterback in high school. Like, he was not a guy growing up going to quarterback camps. And like, he was very a late bloomer, relatively speaking at the position. And so he's still learning. a lot of things through in-game experience and understanding what he can and can't get away with.

I was secretly rooting for Miami to make the playoff just because I was not very impressed with ACC defenses this year. I wanted to see Miami make the playoff and go up against Texas or whoever, just a better defense to see how Cam Ward would fare. Unfortunately, Miami failed just short of that, just mostly because they have a god-awful defense. It's tough, man, which, you know, honestly might fuel some of that decision making. When you know you got to score 35 every single game, that probably affects you at least a little bit.

Sure. No, absolutely fair. And that certainly was the case of Washington State as well. So it is something where going to the NFL, where things are going to be a little more buttoned up. And, you know, you have to be a little more measured with the risks that you take. You don't want to take that risk taking away from you. You just have to be a little more judicious with. when you decide to do it and how many times a game, the situations, all of that.

And I think it will come in time. Best case scenario for you with Cam Ward, Derek, is what? I mean, it probably is something like a little bit more consistent of what we've seen from Kyler Murray, probably. And again, Kyler Marie is a guy who has played at like a top eight quarterback at certain points in his career. And it's been a little bit up and down. But I think there's a world where because Cam Ward is a little bigger and has a little

bit more sturdiness in the pocket than Kyler Murray does. Obviously, Murray has overcome it in certain ways, but because Ward has more of that, I think there is a world where he can be a more consistent passer than Murray has ever been. So some version of that, which, I mean, that's like a top 10 quarterback if all things go right. It's more than justifiable with the number one pick. If that's the ceiling that we're talking about, you should be comfortable taking that guy with the number one pick. Dan, are you that bullish on how he can kind of fall in the quarterback hierarchy?

Where do you sit with this? Yeah, I mean, Derek read off my notes. I mean, that's exactly what I have. you know, that's kind of how I thought with, when Kyler Murray was at his best, you know, being mentioned as a possible MVP candidate and healthy and playing at a high level. And, you know, that's, if we're talking best case scenario, that I think that is realistic to think with Cam Ward. And Derek, I think this speaks to one of your viewpoints on this quarterback class in that even if the rest of the class isn't very good, that doesn't mean Cam Ward isn't very good. You think that some of the overall discourse has kind of seeped into the way.

that we've talked about Cam Ward in this process. I do. I think two things have worked against Cam Ward. First of all, we had, we're coming off of last year's class, which had, in my estimation, Caleb Williams was a special prospect, Drake May was a special prospect. And then Jaden Daniels had a special rookie year. So it's kind of hard to sell anybody that like the quarterback in the next class is going to be as good as those guys.

It's just hard. And I don't think he is. I do think he's like a tier below those guys. But the thing that is also working against Cam Ward is anytime you bring up this quarterback class, people just go, ah, it's not the year. to take one. It's not the year to take one. It's not the year to take one. And it's like, that's true if you have picks two through 256 or whatever it is. But if you have the first one and you can take Cam Ward, it's actually like he is. I think he's better than what six quarterbacks

went in the first round last year. I think he's better than three of them. And so like that to me is a quarterback that is warranted to go as high as he's going to go. Yeah, I like him. I enjoyed studying him. I had a lot of fun watching him. And it actually made me really excited about what this could mean for the Titans after they draft him at number one, which all signs are pointing to the fact that that's probably what we're going to get. Before we get to Shador Sanders, we are going to take a quick break. Before we get back into the show, I want to tell you guys about the athletics listeners survey.

You listen to us, now we want to hear from you. We're asking you to fill out a quick survey about you and your podcast habits by going to theathletic.com slash athletic slash survey 25. These lucky entries will win $100 worth of Amazon vouchers, so whether you're a long-time listener or a new one, we want your feedback. go to theathletic.com slash athletic slash survey 25. That's theathletic.com slash athletic slash survey 25. The link is also in our episode description below.

All right, Dan, let's do this. Let's get to Shador Sanders, your number two quarterback, number 25 on your big board. I can see you smiling. What has this process been like for you? Because I feel like it's been unlike any other quarterback evaluation process that you've probably ever gone through. There's probably never been as much acrimony about a lot. a guy you have listed at 25 on your big board than there has been with this.

Yeah, a guy that I think can be a perfectly fine NFL starter, you know? It's just that for whatever reason, it became love or hate with Shador. Why do we think this is, by the way? I was thinking about this the other day. Like, what is the reason for this? I don't, if there's already a lot of heat on Colorado and, you know, just the program and who his dad is and him as a quarterback, like, if you don't, if you don't, if, you don't love him, that means you don't like him at all.

And I don't know how that started or why that is. It just seemed to be the case. When in reality, quarterback evaluation is never binary. You know, there's so much gray area. There's so many layers and context that's needed. And especially with a guy like Shador Sanders, who started at Jackson State and in the last two years at Colorado. Colorado was the year before Shador and Coach Prime got there, I think we're one and 11. and then the last two years, they were 13 and 11.

So, no, they didn't go to the playoffs. They didn't win the conference, but they had a winning record for a program that was barely winning games before they showed up. And that says something about the quarterback and the coach and everything. Before we jump in, Derek, I would love to hear how you would describe the Colorado offense

because to me, I don't know, watching something just felt off. It felt outdated. it in a sense. It felt like I was watching an episode of Househunters from 2018. Like, the houses look the same. But then you see the prices and you're like, oh, yeah, this is from a different time. This doesn't, this doesn't make sense. But I would just, I would, I'd love to hear how you would sum up this offense under Pat Schumer. I think that's so funny. You say that. They, so they are like mostly a 10 personnel offense and they run like four concepts, dude. They run like mesh. They run some of your other basic.

like air raid stuff. Y cross. Yeah, slant flat, Y cross, all that stuff. And then they love spamming this rap concept where you just have like your slot receiver

run a little five yard stop route and then you run the dig behind it. Travis Hunter running the dig behind it. Travis Hunter running the dig behind it. And then it's screens. You can't forget the screens. And dude. Okay, that's the other thing.

So they run a lot of RPO's and a lot of screens, many of them attached to RPO's. They also love doing it in the first quarter. Like in the first quarter, they will just spam these RPO screens to just like, can we get cheap offense so we can get like a little bit ahead of the sticks and ahead of the scoreboard and then unlock the rest of our offense, which again, Dane, like you're saying, isn't actually a whole lot anyway. So I don't know why they wouldn't just start with it.

But the whole offense, like you said, it feels a little bit vanilla, like almost like they're just picking plays from Madden. Like, just going to sorting a Madden playbook by 10 personnel and just picking stuff and not really tying it to anything. Can I play devil's advocate a little bit, especially with the screens? If I had that offensive line, I would also throw 12 screens a game. Because there's no running game. No running game. Could not run the ball and could not pass protect. And I think the only reason, you look at the PFF numbers, I want to say that Chador was pressured on like 35 to 36% of his dropbacks, which in a vacuum is not that big of a number.

but then you consider the fact that only one other quarterback in FBS through more screen passes than he did last year. And that 35 to 36 suddenly becomes an astronomical number because just think about how few true dropbacks there are for him to be getting pressured on. So that complicates a lot of this conversation, Dane, in a way that I knew we were going to have to talk about the context because I had heard some of the rumblings about the offensive line. But then digging into it, I was like, oh my God, this is a rough situation. Yeah, there's no doubt. And again, that's why quarterback evaluation is just, it's more than can he play or can he play. You know, there's so many layers here that we have to sift through. And with Colorado, you know, playing in a conference that a lot of bad defenses in the Big 12, you know, playing in a con or playing for the team where no run game, no offensive line, where it was just, all right, let's get the ball out of his hands.

And, you know, it's, he actually, it's, I actually tweeted this earlier. it's eerily similar the numbers between him and Cam Ward on throws over 20 plus yards. He's almost identical in terms of both have 14 touchdowns, both the completion percentage is exactly the same, same pass attempts, same completions. But it's the intermediate part of the field where it's just like, okay, this is where Shadur has nothing. This is where everything's within 10 yards or it's over 20 yards. And that gives you a little bit of the doubt of, okay, it's not that maybe he can't do it, more consistently, but we just haven't, I don't see it enough on film. And when everything's going to get, yes, his offensive line will theoretically be better in the NFL. The defense is going to be

a lot better as well. And, you know, he'll be asked to do a little bit more. It's not that he can't do it. It's just with an average physical skill set, I just worry about what the end result's going to look like. Yeah, obviously in Miami, you have two guys in your intermediate passing game that were huge for them. Like, what were Strepo and a Royal were in that offense. I'm bummed about a Strepo 40 thing because I think he's a really fun player. So the fact that he wrapped off a 4-8 is pretty tough. He was projected 4-6-5 around there. Like he was being talked about like scouts liked him fourth, fifth round as like a, you know,

your Julian Edelman type of slot target. Yes. But a 4-8 is tough to over-cut. I still think he'll get drafted, but man, I don't think it's going to be in the top five rounds now. That's tough. The last thing I want to talk about, now we're getting off track. But then one name I wanted to mention to, Dane, I think Fidel Diggs from.

Syracuse has got something to him. Good player. Texas A&M transfer, yeah. I think he's got something to him. They would stand him up and let him rush over the A gap and like they would use him in a really unique way. Yeah, I think he's like anywhere on day three, like fourth, fifth round, yeah, I'm with you. I think he'd be a good pick. He's got size. He's got some explosiveness to him.

He ate up Miami's left tackle a couple different times to the point where I was like, who is that guy? And I actually looked it up because I thought he was playing so well. All right, let's get back to the Chodor Sanders conversation here. Derek, as you're thinking about him and just the overall discourse that has emerged around Shador Sanders, is he the consensus number two quarterback because of the rest of the class is this bad? Or is he the consensus number two quarterback because in your mind he is a worthwhile first round pick? So I just submitted my charting profile of Sanders and that was like basically

the thesis of what I was going to lay out for the remaining article. And I landed on he's just better than the other guys. I don't think he's anywhere close to what Cam Ward is. I think Cam Ward is a prospect that even if other classes he wouldn't go first overall, to me, he would go top 10 in a majority of classes. Sanders to me, I think, is benefiting a little bit from being in a class that just doesn't have very many other options. And we've seen that happen plenty of other times. Like, Kenny Pickett probably wasn't actually a first-round pick, but he gets elevated because the rest of the class around him wasn't actually. So this has certainly happened before. I think where I land on Sanders is that he to me has an arm that is just okay.

His accuracy is pretty good, but it's not elite. And then as an athlete, I don't think he has the dynamic trace that you see from a lot of the other guys who go in the top 10. And so when I piece together that profile, not many of those guys go in the first round anymore. And even the ones that do don't have a very high hit rate. It's your Mack Joneses or, you know, you can get pretty decent play out of Tuatong of Iloa in very specific situations. or it's like the Kenny Pickett's like that's usually or it's Bryce Young where like it looks completely disastrous you know for a little bit before he has to recover himself usually you need some sort of talent trait that you can really hang your hat on and for as good as I think

as you know some of the playing quarterback aspects that that Shudder Sanders has there's just no trait where I go man I've got to have that in the first round I think that's totally fair so Dane in your mind like how would you make the case for him as a first round prospect Oh, boy. Okay. So he's a very polished passer. Like balance base, clean stroke. You can tell he's been doing this a long time. Throws well on rhythm, takes care of the football. He's accurate. He is. And not 74% completion percentage accurate. But I think he's accurate enough where he knows where to put the football. Yeah, only I think only 23.7% of his completions last year were over 10 yards. So, you know, again, we've talked about it. A lot of screens, a lot of quick throws, some of that circumstance. But, yeah, I don't think necessarily he's as accurate as 74% completions would suggest.

Love is toughness. I mean, no one's going to question his toughness. He'll stand in there and deliver. I saw the same player in the first quarter as I did in the final minute of the game. It doesn't matter. You know, like he gets, you know, the off-field stuff with, oh, he's brash. He's cocky. All I know is that confidence carries over to the field.

and in a good way. I mean, he plays very, very confident, which is encouraging. So, yeah, I mean, I think there's enough to him that tells me, hey, he can start. And, but I mean, overall, I agree with exactly what Derek saying. It kind of reminds me of the 2019 draft when Kyler went number one overall. And then who was the second quarterback drafted that year? Daniel Jones and. Daniel Jones.

He got pushed up earlier than he, earlier than he should have because, you know, needed a quarterback. And so not. that Daniel Jones and Storrh Sanders are similar quarterbacks, but just getting pushed up to be that second quarterback off the board, ironically to the Giants, which could happen again. So overall, I think we have to look at drafting quarterbacks as bets, right? You know, we're all players, really, but especially with quarterbacks. You take the traits, you take the skill set, the production, the intangibles, and say, okay, what are the odds that this is going to turn into a winning starter for us?

And I think that's 100% how a lot of teams look at it. I mean, Howie Roseman and Jeffrey Lurie, that's exactly how they looked at Jalen Hertz when they drafted him. They knew the odds probably weren't great that he'll become a winner because of some of the inconsistencies as a passer and this and that. But you like the physical tools, the mental toughness. You know, there's at least a, you can see a path where it could work. And obviously, that's exactly how it played out. And that's not going to be the case for most quarterbacks. But it's just all about making these bets.

And so when you look at that, look at these quarterbacks through that prism, Cam Ward, at least in my opinion, and I think, you know, you guys would agree, has the best odds of becoming a winning starter among these guys. And I think there's a drop off after that with someone like Shador, you can see a path where it works. It's just, it's harder to see. And it requires, I think, a lot of breaks to go your way where the talent is right around him in terms of the protection in terms of the weapons. And so again, people want to make this binary where it's either he can play or he can't. It's just not how this works. So, you know, would I take him top five? No.

Would I take him at 25? That's where, okay. And that's where we can have that conversation because I think even though the odds are the same, I feel a little bit better about those odds at pick 25. And not just because of where I'm drafting him, but if I'm drafting him top five, I'm also missing out on an Abdul Carter or whoever else I'm taking. So I feel better about taking him at 25. it's just more acceptable at that point in the draft.

Here's my concern with this. You talk about the path to being a plus starter or a capable starter in the NFL. And we talk about ceiling and floor with guys. I don't think the ceiling is there with him just because he's not very physically talented. Like that's just the reality of the situation. And it's the throwing is not where that shows up the most to me. He is not explosive. And so when he's in trouble, he can't get himself out of trouble.

So if you're going to have that as sort of the limiters on your ceiling as a player, if I'm going to draft you in the first round, the floor to be really high. Like, I need the floor to be really high. And I think how consistent his throwing motion is and just how the ball placement, things like that, those are high floor traits. But his pocket awareness and movement to me, those are not high floor traits. Those lower your floor to a place that worries me a little bit, Derek. When I watch him, that's the biggest concern to me. If you're not going to have a ton of eye-popping talent, you need to be a machine with some of this other stuff. and when I watch him drift in the pocket and some of the bad habits that absolutely could be accelerated by how bad the Colorado offensive line is.

I want to at least admit that that's probably fueling some of this, but I don't see some of those buttoned up elements to the rest of how he plays the position that would necessarily make me feel good about how high the floor is, especially considering how limited the ceiling seems to be. I definitely agree with that. And I'll actually start by saying something positive, even though I think he has some issues with moving around the pocket and like knowing when to pull the rip cord and even having the explosive ability to pull the rip cord. I do think his pocket toughness has improved. Like when I watched him early in 2023, I was like, man, he's just shying away from stuff. He wants to get the ball out too fast. But I think by the end of his 2024 season, he was more willing to hang on and make those throws in the same way that you'll see like Jared Gough just stare down the barrel of the gun and make a throw. Like I think that's something Sanders has improved on.

but in terms of actually moving around the pocket, buying himself time. You know, I talked about with Cam Ward, his ability to just almost pull these arm angles from thin air. That's not how Sanders is. Sanders has his one way to throw the ball and that's it and he's not as explosive. And that can work. He's not a creative player. No, he's not.

It's funny you mentioned that too. I think he's a smooth and comfortable thrower on the run, but he's not a creative throw on the run. He's not going to make plays. You have to boot him. You have to sprint him out. You have to like coax it out of him. and he can make the throws.

It's almost like I've said this before. It's like Alex Smith. Like Alex Smith was not a creative player outside of the pocket, but he could make throws on the run. You just had to like by design, get him moving. I think there's a lot of that with Sanders. But I think kind of to your point and to really answer the question, Sanders is in theory a quarterback who you're banking on accuracy

and you're banking on his decision making his processing. I think that stuff is solid. I don't think it's up to the snuff where it's like it's going to be enough for me to override his lack of physical tools to take him in the first round. That's kind of what I mean. It's not close. And Joe Burrow was bigger, right? Joe Burrow was six four, two, twenty, better athlete.

Joe Burrow is explosive enough to get away from pressure. It's Chedore Sanders is not. When you watch him try to get out of trouble, he can't get himself out of trouble. No, from a mental standpoint, he's not on that level where, you know, he's just so different that it's like, okay, you know what? Screw it. He's so different mentally. will take that chance. And I mean, I'm with you. The biggest concern I have is the inconsistent

pocket feel. It's just there are times where he needlessly backpedals. And this is why I, in the past, I compared him to not as a player, but at play style. He wants to play like Jordan Love. Just the way that he plays, he just doesn't have the physical traits to do that. And so, no, the offensive line was not good like we've talked about, but there are plenty of sacks on tape where it's on the quarterback. Either he's drifting in reverse where the tackle has no, chance or he's holding the ball too long or basically he's lowering the success rate of the play by just a lack of pocket feel and this is you saw this the most against the best defenses on the schedule and like I said the big 12 plays terrible defense but you watch him on the nebraska tape

kansas state b yu those are the three best defenses he faced and all three were losses all three were up and down games from shadore and mostly because of that lack of pocket feel what that really really stands out when he's going up against a defense that can muddy things up a little bit. To see that Nebraska's defensive coordinator got to raise this off season is not surprising in the least watching that defense play. They do a lot of stuff around. I was like, oh, that's cool. Like, they do a lot of interesting stuff. And it's so funny, Derek, that game specifically, I thought some of his best moments in the several games I watched were when they were consciously moving the pocket in that game. Because I do think that it adds like a level of fluidity to his game.

And then the other, there are a couple moments, I think it was in the Colorado State game where he's stepping up in the pocket and ripping middle of the field throws. There was a dagger to Travis Hunter that was like, if you did that three times a game and that was the pocket feel and movement, I could talk myself into that. Those moments just don't show up to me quite often enough. And that Nebraska game, there's another thing that's worth talking about here. We don't have to overstate or get into all the personality stuff. We haven't been in the meetings, we haven't been in the interviews. I've heard about some of them, but we have not been in them. That moment where he slaps his offensive lineman's hand out of the way when he's trying to help him up in that Nebraska game,

what do you say when you're watching film the next day? Like, that's just stuff that showing up your offensive lineman, even if they're objectively bad players, it's just not a good vibe. Like, that is not the right way to approach things. And I think that extends to a lot of other areas of kind of how he carries himself. And that's just not conjecture. That's like hearing from how some of those meetings have gone over the last month and a half. And I think for me, the, it's again, like you said, we're not in these meetings.

So it's hard to say. And I think from all the stuff that he said in the media, like, it's hard to really pull a lot from that. But that thing where he slapses his offensive lineman hand, offensive lineman's hand away, that is tough in and of itself. But it also to me is tough compared to Cam Ward, who it seems like everyone who has ever played for Cam Ward would die for him on the battlefield. And so like juxtaposing those two, it's just a different. It's a different thing. I love that you say this, because I think that some people are going to look at this conversation about Sugar Sanders and the broader conversation about Shudor Sanders and say, why do you have

a problem with the guy having confidence? That's not what I have a problem with. When you're the quarterback, you have to get 50 guys who are going to follow you. You have to set the culture. You have to set with the vision and feel of the locker room is like whether you like it or not. It's not about having confidence. It's whether guys are going to buy into who you are.

And in talking to coaches about how these conversations have gone with both guys, I think Cam Ward has a chance to be that sort of guy. I think it might be a little bit tougher, Dane, for Chador Sanders to be that sort of guy. And I think that's where the practical application of some of this personality stuff really matters. And, you know, there are plenty of teammates that have come up and talked very glowingly about Chador and the way he leads and all that. It's just it doesn't feel universal where maybe it does with Cam. And that's something that even during in the fall, talking to area scouts, they, with Cam Ward, of all the quarterbacks, he's got the biggest chip on her shoulder. He's the smartest.

He relates the most. He's more even keeled. And so, you know, it's, again, it's hard. Like you said, we're not in these meetings. We're not, you know, but at the same time, you can understand why some things are said. and, you know, especially from after the, I think it was after the Nebraska game when he called out his offensive line to the media

and said, you know, I can't block myself or whatever. You know, something along those lines. Like, you just, you can't, especially going into a locker room full of 28-year-old veterans, like you just, it's not going to fly. And so I think he knows that. But, you know, how is a guy to play out when he actually gets the NFL? That's something, you know, with the wait and see. Best case scenario, Dan, in your mind for Shador Sanders is what?

I think it's something along the lines of Brock Purdy in San Francisco. You know, like just it's important for an NFL coaching staff to convince him to play within himself more. Just play your style of quarterback. Don't be Jordan Love. Don't be this court. Don't be just stop doing this. Stop making these, you know, peddling in reverse and making these last minute decisions. Tap into your strengths and, you know, just play in rhythm.

And so when you see him stay true to his skill set, I think you see poise, you see a rhythm thrower, you see a touch thrower. So get him in a timing-based offense. And I think with his confidence, I think he could be a solid NFL starter. Best case scenario for Shador Sanders is what, Derek? It's probably in that range.

It's the Brock Purdy, like maybe some of the lower parts of Kurt Cousins' career, actually. I think Brock Pry isn't a better athlete than Shadour Sanders. Oh, he definitely is. I think he absolutely is. It's bizarre. Sorry that Dion's kids, none of them got Dion athleticism. Like, it's just, it's, Shiloh Sanders, the safety who's in this draft class, not going to get drafted because he's not a plus athlete.

Like, it's just, I don't know, it's, it's curious how that works. Listen, my dad was 6'2 and my mom's 5'1 and I did not, I'm not 6'2, if you're curious about it. So we have all been dragged down by one of our parents. It's a universal experience. we're going to take another quick break here and then we're going to get back with the next three guys in the second tier of quarterbacks. We're going to move through these guys a little bit faster,

but I did want to hit all of them because I do think, you know, if we don't think Shador Sanders is this lock first round prospect, I think part of the interesting discussion about that is, is it better if you're a team that needs a developmental quarterback or you need an answer to just wait a little bit and maybe draft some of these guys in the back half of the first or even into the second round.

So, Dan, we're just going to go in the order of your big board here and start with Jackson Dart from Ole Miss, who is 57 for you. As you were building your scouting report for Jackson Dart, where did that start for you? I mean, I think it starts with the Ole Miss offense. It's true spread, heavy RPO, heavy play action. Lane Kiffin is a mastermind when it comes to putting defenses in conflict.

He is so good at his job. That was my number one take. from watching Dax and DART is that Lane Kiffin is incredible at his job. It sometimes it's misdirection. Other times it's the way he uses route concepts, especially like sale concepts. It's exploiting space. And it's very smart, but simplistic in the way that the offense has ran. And it just doesn't really mirror what DART is going to be asked to do in the NFL.

So watching Darts tape, there were more times that I said to myself, oh, that's an amazing play design rather than oh what a read and it's not to say that dart doesn't have he doesn't have a ton of impressive throws because he does uh i mean his go balls are awesome uh just thinking back to like the florida tape both touchdowns on that florida tape are awesome beautiful dots who ripped that post man that post throw against florida you can get yourself excited about that perfect throw exactly uh so there's definitely NFL throws mixed in but the decision making is it's a question mark and there's a lot of predetermined throws, a lot of, you know, my guys down there type of throws. A lot of one read, drop eyes, scramble type of throws or type of plays.

So, you know, there are times where he'll get to that backside read. It just, you wish it happened more. And so the physical traits are there. I think he's a good arm, loves to push the ball downfield. He led the FBS and completions of 10 plus yards. And then, you know, I think the other part that scouts talk about, with Darts report is just, it's the leadership. The coaches and teammates at Ole Miss just rave about the way he's wired.

Even the defensive guys say, without even hesitating, Darts the most competitive player on the team and just how he connects with every single player. It doesn't matter if you're the backup quarterback or you're the backup safety. He connects with everybody. So I think from a culture standpoint, Darts a pretty easy sell in the room. Derek, what percentage of Jackson Darts? dropbacks do you think he used play action on last year according to PFF? I mean like we're including RPO's in that I assume.

Yes. Dude like 52%. It's over half, right? 53.2% is the answer. I'm locked in. I'm locked in. I had that almost saw the number. 53.2%.

And it's funny. Like if you just think about that in comparison to like an NFL offense and the gap between those things. But it's real in that it does really muddy how you're trying to evaluate him just because what's being asked of him in that offense, even if he runs it well, is just very, very different than what's going to be asked of him in an NFL offense.

Hell, in half of other college offenses when it's not built like the machine that this thing is built like. Yeah, the next great quarterback from an offense like this will be the first one. And you could be an okay quarterback from these offenses. Like, Tuatunga Vailoa played in an offense just like this at Alabama.

And I think his play action rate was like basically the same thing. It was not over 50%. three years. Yeah, it was bumping up in the NFL. Well, and that's the thing. It's because that's the only way they could replicate what he was allowed to do in college because the way that his skill set was. Obviously, I think Dard is more talented than that.

His arm is better. He's a better athlete. But I kind of echo a lot of what Dane was saying where it's just a hard, it's hard to get a feel for his decision making, one because of the way that the offense is structured. But then there are just a lot of plays on his tape where he's, you see the helmet scanning both sides of the field, like throughout the entire play. And it's like, that's not good. That speaks to a guy who doesn't know what he's looking at or where the ball needs to go.

And then he's just kind of guessing that he sees flash a friendly color with a little bit of like grass ahead of them be like, all right, I'm going to throw it now. And it's just like that's going to get you picked off a lot in the NFL. Like that's just not going to fly. The timing of that's not going to work. So I do think you see some of the talent with him. But I just think you're kind of going to land in a spot where similar to Tuotunga Vailoa, similar to like Jimmy Garapolo, similar to like Jimmy Garapolo, where he kind of has to be this just one, two, three, tell him to throw the ball over the middle of the field,

rip that glancer out, the post, or whatever, and that's kind of all you're going to get from him. And even with, I think Tua has a good understanding of where players are in space, right? And his touch is better than I think Darts is. DART is like an area thrower. I like, I think he gets it up and down nicely on vertical throws. Like the Florida game is a perfect example of this.

The post route touchdown, but he had a beautiful kind of up and down corner with a guy on his lap that should have been called. caught early in that game. I was like, that's probably the most impressive throw I've seen him make. But when I watch, yeah, and it was a beautiful pass. And so he can do that on some of these vertical throws. I think it was the Florida game or the Mississippi State game.

He had a really nice on time, like deep out off play action. But those are all like half field in rhythm play action plays for the most part. I had a really interesting conversation at the combine with a play caller. And we were talking about quarterback play and evaluating quarterbacks. And we were discussing the fact that sometimes one of the best things, a quarterback can tell you when you ask him why he made a play is, I don't know. I don't know why I threw the ball there. I don't know why I thought that was the right decision. Instinct. Yeah. And when I watch Cam Ward, there's a lot of that where a safety's shoulders will be turned and

he just rips a wheel. He just, he feels the body language and he feels the space. And when I watch Jackson Dart play, it's the opposite of that. He doesn't feel where defenders are instinctively or naturally. When the offense is fed to him, he can make it look really good. But I don't think his feel for where defenders and space are within the context of a play is very good. And that's a problem only in that most of the best quarterbacks in the NFL are fueled by that ability.

And that's where Darts a perfect example of how hard is to evaluate this position because, again, like you said, the way he plays quarterback in college, the way he'll need to play quarterback in the NFL are just two very different things. And it's not necessarily that he can't do the things because he executed the old miss offense. You know, like if he was in a different offense, maybe the production would have looked the same, you know, but he did what he was asked to do in that old miss offense. And so when he goes to the NFL and he's asked to do some new things, how long of a

of a gap are we talking before, I mean, teaching a quarterback how to retrain his eyes and play play with the same type of speed when you're reading. It's just easier said than done. And so I think that, you know, you see enough with the back shoulders, the hitches, the goes where I would love to draft and develop him because I think there is definitely an outcome where Dart can be an NFL starter, but it's a big projection. And so again, we're going back to that what I mentioned earlier about the odds. The odds of him becoming a true NFL starter in where in relation to the draft.

you feel comfortable drafting a player like that. It's just it makes it for a really interesting conversation. Where would you like to see him wind up, Derek? Like what do you think is his best path of success in terms of a landing spot? Like Miami? Like it has to be an offense like that where I think he is, I think my, and I'm jumping the gun a little bit here, my best case scenario for him is something like Jimmy Garoppolo.

And I know people are going to, you know, look at Jim McGroplo and be like, oh, well, he was under center with Kyle Chanhan. Okay, but at Eastern Illinois, he was playing. for Dino Babers and that was like a full spread like it was a completely different offense and that's what Darts working with now. It also wasn't that much under center by the time he was done. Right by the time he was done. Exactly. And so I think that might rack people's brains for a minute. But like I think if you could get Dard into the building for a year or two and not have him play and like really get him locked into the timing of the offense and like you kind of just

have to trust it. You don't really have to read as much stuff out. I think he could work in that because he is a talented thrower. Like I think his arm is well above the threshold. You see some of these flashes of high-end placement. It's just I think he's going to need to be kind of have to play bumper lanes quarterback a little bit in the NFL. All right. Well, I have a fun hypothetical for you.

Okay. Okay. Let's say we get to pick 80. He's still on the board. You're the Los Angeles Rams. You have the 90th pick. You've got a couple extra six in your back pocket. You already have Jimmy Garoppolo on the roster,

but you need a future plan of quarterback. How is that one sitting with you? I'd be okay with that, to be honest. Like, I don't love Jackson Dart as a prospect, but like pick 80. That's probably fine. And if you're, and if you're- They don't have a second round pick, which is the only reason that I'm talking about with this way.

And then if you're telling me off the rip, though, that you're confirming to me he's going to land with a coach as good as Sean McVeigh, okay. Like, I can start to sell myself on why this might be able to work, especially if he's obviously not going to have to play that many games in his first year. So you can, you can sell me on why this would, like, if he could get Jared Gough to be a very good point and shoot thrower, DART is like a similarly talented thrower. Obviously, Goff has some other stuff that I think made him a much better prospect, but also golf came from a nonsense college offense too. Yeah, the bear rate, as they called it. Yeah. Is there a team for

you, Dane, that you think, all right, if he lands here, I would feel better about Jackson Darts path forward? Uh, the Broncos with Sean Payton. Um, yeah, obviously that's not happening. Um, but yeah i mean along those lines like that's i mentioned this before teams are looking for that next bow nicks and i think that's why jackson dart is being mentioned as a potential first round pick not even a first round potential top 15 pick by some people because that bow knick's bump that teams are looking for um and if you squint you can see it down the line with a guy like this but it's a huge gamble, just a huge projection.

And I just hope for Darts' sake that he does go to a place with a McVeigh or, and obviously you hope that for every quarterback, but especially a guy like this who is going to need time. So I would love to draft and develop him.

Like on my board, he's, I don't know, like 55 or something like that. I can't remember. But he's, yeah, exactly. So like that's where I would feel, like after the top 50 picks, that's where I would feel comfortable

drafting him, taking my shot, but you know, there's a quarterback tax. And so we know quarterbacks go earlier than we expect them to. And so when we're sitting there Thursday night and he's the 15th overall pick, it's going to be a really interesting set of circumstances. I got it. Just for our sake, I hope he is. It's just for the content. I hope he is. I'm really hoping for one of those moments like we got last year.

59 on your big board is Tyler Shuck from Louisville. that gap between him and Jackson Dart, I assume, is much smaller than it is for most people that have been ranking quarterbacks. I think you're probably a little bit higher on some other people than some other people on Shuck Dane. What has attracted you to Shuck in the process? Well, we're the same age, so that works. No, he's he will be 26 this year. So he's an older player. And that's, I think a lot of people get hung up on that.

He was the number two recruit in Oregon's 2018 class behind only. Penny Soule. So, like, this is a guy that's been around. But, you know, prototypical size. He's got passing twitch to him. The arm strength is awesome. He has a hitchless release. So the ball shoots off his hand, easy zip.

You know, like I said, you could argue, he might have the best power arm in this class. And he does have an elasticity to the way he delivers. So he can do it in different ways. He moves around well. He's not a statue. you back there. He's a good athlete. His accuracy doesn't dip on the move. He can create big plays. Him and Cam Ward were tied with seven passes at 50 plus yards this year. So, and he

engineered an offense this year at Louisville and that Braum offense that average 36 and a half points per game. So there's a lot that just if I'm taking just a 2024 film and I'm looking at Shuck as a player and I'm saying, okay, this can work at the next level. This guy can start at the NFL level. And so I've been a big Chuck supporter. But as much as I am a fan of his, it's not a perfect evaluation by any means. And what muddies that evaluation in your mind? You mentioned the 2024 film very pointedly there. Yes, exactly. 2024 was the first time in his seven years in college that he played more than eight games in a season. So like that's tough, obviously. The medicals are something that you have to get to sign off

from the medical staff that, hey, no long-term injuries. And if you go back over his injuries, it's more, you know, just kind of bad luck injuries, not necessarily like. Collarbone, broken leg. Like, it's not the stuff where you're like this could linger. It just feels like it's been really unfortunate. The same ACL three times, like nothing like that, where it's like, okay, there's a degenerative issue here.

But aside from the age and the medicals, his timing, just getting through his reads needs to be better. he will linger instead of eliminating things quicker. And he'll eventually get there, but it's often late, especially over the middle of the field. And that's something you can get away with in the ACC, but obviously not going to work in the NFL. And so I think that's the biggest thing. And yeah, again, for an older player, he just hasn't played relatively as much for a guy that age. And so there is upside here, which you don't always say about a 25-year-old prospect.

But there clearly is upside once he gets more. experience and continues to play more. It's just, can he stay on the field to do that? We haven't talked about Shuck at all, Derek. And I don't really, there's some guys. Like, I watch Cam Ward and I was like, oh, Derek's going to love Cam Ward. Like, the first thing I texted you was Cam Ward, honorable quarterback.

That's exactly what he is. Shuck has a little bit of that. Like, he's aggressive. He'll push the ball. But where do you sit with Tyler Shuck? I went in wanting to not like Tyler Shuck because 26-year-old quarterback. Like, get out of here. Like, it's a completely ridiculous.

overrating this. We are overstating this stuff. We've got to get over this. It's quarterbacks. Who cares? The guy can play until he's 37. No, that's not the part of it I'm concerned about. The part that I'm always bring back to is like, usually the players who are good earlier

are the ones who are going to be good in the NFL. And I understand injuries have muddied that with Tyler Shuck. I also think there's a little bit of that over the last couple of years. We're going to let one draft class change our mind on that. I'm not there yet. Like I think last year was an aberration, if anything. Quarterback's a little different though, right? Like, talking about age at running back compared to quarterback.

You know, like, it's, there's a big difference. Tyler Shucks, career would be over if you were a running back. Exactly, exactly. I mean, we've seen, you know, whether it's Russell Wilson or Jay and Daniels or, you know, like we've seen, like, people want to, they see older quarterback, and not you, Derek, but like people, oh, Brandon Whedon, like, no, like, this isn't that. This is way more talented than Whedon was for one. No doubt, exactly.

This is a special. set of circumstances that, you know, why he didn't have his breakout until age 25 season. It's just a unique player with a unique circumstances. And I'll say when I say that, like I wanted to not like him based on the age. This was when there was that like two week stretch when everyone was like, he could be a first round pick. And I was like, okay, 26 years old in the first round, we're not doing. But by the third round, and again, when you look at his 2024 film, there honestly is stuff I like.

You mentioned his snappiness like as an explosive thrower. I think he probably has slightly more velocity than Ward and can maybe throw the ball a little bit further. Ward's elasticity is like completely different, like special. But Chuck has it pretty good. Like he can throw off platform. He can throw on the move. He can do all this other weird stuff.

So I think purely as a as a throwing talent, he's probably the best you're going to find in this class outside of Ward. He's a pretty good athlete. He's got the size. He's a little bit skinnier, but he's like tall and you could potentially add some muscle there. So I think he's got that going for him. and then he I do think he kind of lingers in terms of like you said with his decision making at times

where like he'll hang on to throws that he really wants to make but he's another guy where unlike Dart like when I watch Dart he makes some decisions where I'm like I don't even know how you arrive there whereas with Shuck he might be late every now and then but I understand everything that he's doing and like why he arrived at these decisions and that I can live with a little bit more and project more into an NFL offense so there's some stuff with Shuck that even if potentially he might have a little bit like capped ceiling because he's he's already so much older, I do still think there's a world where you could draft him in the second round, third round,

and he could give you like Baker Mayfield-esque production, which again isn't special, but like you take that for no money in the second or third round. Okay, like you're kind of cooking. It's funny that you say that. And again, you mentioned the third round. I think he goes before that just based on conversations about people in the league that like him. I do think he's somebody that as more people have gotten involved in the process. process. He's going to have some fans. But you mentioned Baker Mayfield. This is the guy I'd be

curious about if Cleveland waits. If Cleveland waits and they end up getting the guy in the second round or maybe they trade back up, you know, they have two third round picks. This is the type of guy that I think would be an interesting bet for a team that is making that calculus. Dan, when we were discussing this hypothetical of Abdul Carter and a quarterback at 35, this is the type of guy that I think you're considering when you're playing that out. No doubt. And he came in for a 30 visit. visit for the Browns. Also, Joe Shane and Kafka,

they were at his pro day yesterday at Louisville. So, you know, the Giants doing work as well. Because I think he's, yeah, if you don't get a quarterback in the top five, this is who you're probably looking at in the 30 to 40 range.

Even though, like, I mean, I have him, he's in my 50s in my rankings, but, you know, the quarterback tax he's going to go earlier.

That's just how it works. And so I just, I don't think it takes much to talk yourself into Tyler Shuck because he has talent. And if you get past the age and the medicals are okay, then you look at this and say, yeah, you know what, this could work. And if it doesn't, then, you know, okay, next year we'll move on and try something new.

It's, uh, there's just a lot, I think there are a lot of things to like about Tyler Shuck. And it also helps that he was the best quarterback I saw at, uh, senior bowl and best quarterback I saw at the combine and in terms of just throwing. Now, Cam Ward didn't throw Shador Sanders. They weren't there. So, you know, but he was. better than DART and the rest of these guys. So the Browns, you mentioned the Giants.

Derek, is there a team that you would like to see a guy like Shuck land with that you think could potentially get the most out of him if he was on the right development path? I mean, the Browns do make a lot of sense. I think quarterback is definitely still on the board for Seattle. And like if we are to believe all this stuff that we were being told about how the offense is going to function and like thinking about Shuck's skill set, I do think that he could make sense sitting behind Donald.

Sitting a 26 year old quarterback sounds funny. But, you know, I do think he means. makes sense for them. How about you, Dan? Anybody that comes to mind for you as you've thought about parings in this process? Yeah, I keep coming back to the Browns. Yeah, if they go in a different direction, as opposed to the second overall pick, I think Shuck makes a lot of sense.

It was interesting trying to come up with a comp that I loved for him. Like, there's a little bit of like Tannahill there. Like he's not quite as well. He's like skinny. It's like skinny tanahill. Yeah. Yeah, right. So that was kind of the best one.

love it but is the best one I came to. But yeah, he's such a unique player that, yeah, like you said, I think there's more fans in the league than I think people realize. And but trying to hit that home with people. And I think, you know, more and more people are catching up. Yeah, the, and think about Ryan Tanhill's best years as a pro. We're going to put you under center. You're going to play action.

You're going to put your back foot on the ground. You're going to rip that shit. That's what our truck will be asked to do in Cleveland. Yeah, right? And that's another one. go straight to the source. That's another really good one. And again, I think as some of these coaches get involved in the process,

there are going to be those sorts of stories that get told about what type of player we're talking about here. Last one, number 61 on your big board, Dan, Jalen Milrow from Alabama. Walk me through your process with what you think of Jalen Milrow's potential future in the NFL. Because when I went back and watched my few games today, I was like, I don't know what to do with this. Like, I would take the swing up.

it because the physical talent is just so tantalizing and especially if you can get him late enough it like whatever like it's in the second round it's like that to me this is a good use of a second round pick if you were a quarterback needy team we can talk about which teams that might be and why that might be the case but 61 that's not that low when you're talking about a quarterback pick if he goes in the second round we're talking about like a jalen hertz esk bet here so what do you think that bet looks like for a team. And let's just go back a little bit. So, 2023, he becomes a starter and he's benched at one point.

Like, it's very up and down. They kind of write the ship towards the end of 2023. They make the playoff. They're in the Rose Bowl against Michigan. Very, didn't look great against Michigan. So coming into the 2024 season, just looking at 2023 tape, it was like, all right, he's an exciting athlete, but he's not a passer. Like, there's nothing to get too excited about here.

but then 2024, September, really the first five, six games, it's like, okay, this looks like a new player. Under Kalin DeBoer and that offense, you know, Wisconsin tape, especially the Georgia tape. The Georgia game, man. Yeah, that game just is like, okay, I can work with this. There's a lot going on here. So, you know, he's electric with the ball in his hands. I had one scout tell me he was, he's never seen a ball carrier in person play as fast as Millrow does just with the ball in his hands. He's never seen it in person like that before.

The touchdown against LSU, like the moment that he takes off on it, I think it was that first drive. I said holy shit out loud. Right, right. So he had 20 rushing touchdowns this year. 12 of them were more than 10 yards. So this isn't like, you know, just push and like he's getting that short yard and stuff. And to put that in perspective, the only quarterback that's come close to that number,

Lamar Jackson, he had 11 in 2017. And so in Milrose at 12 this past year. So high RPM arm strength. He's strong in the pocket. You love that, you know, that size to him that he can shake off contact. He can create explosives with his arm as well. 16 passing touchdowns this year. They average 36.6 yards, which is ludicrous.

That's a ludicrous number. So, but again, only 16, which is a relatively lower number than what you would expect for a quarterback that we're talking about in this range. But two-time captain, he won the academic heisman. So it's like, all right, we're checking off mental boxes as well. So I think when you take the individual traits, it's like, all right, like this is, he's good size. He has a rocket arm, a big-time athlete.

He's a really smart guy. He grew up in a really strict household. Like his parents were in the military. Like there's a lot of things about him personally. And then on the field that you're like, all right, this is, this is going to work. This is something that I want to develop. Well, it's just, okay, where's the consistency, right? I mean, there's just, there's no, from the mechanics to his accuracy, he's a see-it-thrower,

so he's not going to consistently anticipate. He's not going to manipulate safeties with his eyes, or at least just he didn't do it on film. And I thought he also struggled a lot on the road compared to at home. I thought that was interesting as well. So this is a, and I mentioned the senior ball and, hang on how Shuck was the best quarterback I saw there. I remember leaving Mobile saying, oh yeah, Miller was there too, wasn't he? Like, it wasn't like a, he didn't stand out in a good way in Mobile with the way he performed, which was a big bummer.

You could tell that he was just trying to work through a lot of stuff. And so, you know, the question is, yeah, he's got all this talent, but what's a realistic timeline for when we're going to be able to see him on the field? And I don't know that I have a good answer for that. And I think you ask five different people, you might get five different answers. So it's, I'd be interested to hear, you know, what you guys saw with Milro. What do you think about that, Derek? Do you think that there's enough there where you could see it put together cohesively if he got to sit for a long enough in the right situation?

Or do you think that there's, it's a little bit too disparate? Pulling it all together might be a little bit too tough, even with some time. So I think because of how disparate it is, there's a chance where like three years from now he's just not in the league. Like, like you do have to piece together. a lot of things. I think his footwork is really bad. He has a tendency to square himself to the line of scrimmage unnecessarily, like, you know, kind of get his shoulders ready to be a scrambler too early. He does stuff like that. He's not really a touch thore. Like Dane says, he's throwing 100 miles an hour no matter what. And so sometimes that can be a benefit. Sometimes it's not.

And so I think that can be an issue for him. But because of kind of what Dane was mentioning where, you know, he takes a starting job in 2023, gets benched, handles it well, comes back and then improves as a player. There's something to that that I kind of appreciate. And so I kind of like him for that. He's also, again, another one of those guys that it seems like anytime somebody, one of his teammates or whoever talks about him, very glowingly. So it seems like he's a guy who is going to like put in the work and stuff like that. And again, you never know. But it just seems like that is the type of guy I would want to bet on. And then just athletically, as a runner, he's one of the most special players I've ever seen. Like, Jaden Daniels was fast. But Milro is probably almost as fast.

and in a much sturdier body. He's like a little bit quicker when he's like as a runner. Like he is a really special mover. And then some of the peak throws that you see because of the velocity that he could put on the ball is impressive. So it's going to be a three year process with him,

I would imagine. But where he's going to get drafted, he's probably going to get that time. So it's not as concerning for a guy who would theoretically go top 10. Yeah. I understand the concerns. I just think that the physical ability is

so extreme and the way that he moves. I mean, he immediately becomes like one of the two or three most explosive quarterback runners in the league. Like, it's him, Anthony Richardson, Justin Fields, and Lamar Jackson. Like, he is in that class almost immediately. When I watched him run, Justin Fields is the person I was thinking about because he is a little bit sturdier and he is just as explosive. Like, some of those runs where Fields puts his foot in the ground.

Ironically, we didn't really see much of them last year when he actually got to start. But in Chicago, the last time we saw him really running, the ability to put his foot in the ground, north-south and take the ball 50 yards. That's what Jaywin-Milro feels like when he's running the ball. And he's also shiftyer than I expected him to be for somebody who's in his frame. Like he moves extremely well. I think there's at least a world where if after two years this is not going well,

he could move the running back. I mean, I think there's at least a possibility of making that transition. And, you know, you want to play this out as long as you can. and hopefully he can develop a quarterback. But worst case scenario, which I think helps his draft projection a little bit because worst case, maybe we have something here that can help us in other ways in the backfield. So, but the point you made, Derek, about him getting benched and then handling it well and getting better and better, that's what, you know, Jalen Hertz is going to be the comp here.

You know, that that's a rocket fuel Jalen Hertz because with Jalen Hertz, people forget how rough it was at the start in Philly. I mean, it was, you had to over. We didn't know if he was going to start the next year. No. They, they maneuvered in the draft so they could go up and get a quarterback if they needed to the following year. And so with Milro, you know, he's, you know, we said an explosive athlete, the ball shoots off his hand. It's just can the disjointed mechanics, can the ability to find his rhythm, play with touch, can you figure all that out? You know, it's, there's going to be bumps along the way.

It's inevitable. But if you have the mental toughness to get past it, you're going to be better for it. And that's what happened with with Jalen Hertz. But he's kind of the exception to the rule. Most guys just, you know, the Zach Wilson's and everybody, they shrink when you have these road bumps. But with Milro, I think there's at least some evidence there that, you know, that he can overcome that. And so talking to a scout about Milro a month ago, I asked him why, because he's a Southeast Scout and he grades Millrow higher than Dart. And I asked him the main reason why.

And he said, plain simple, give me the guy that's hard to defend. And with Milro, that dual threat ability, it just makes him an exciting player because of the different ways he can beat you. If you can polish it up and get everything to work in unison, and that's a major if, but if you do, you've definitely got something. A team that I kept coming back to because of the J-1-Herts connection, maybe this is why I was doing it. Like, what if he just got to sit in New Orleans for a couple years for a play caller who just spent the last year understanding what a quarterback like J.1 Hertz can do for an offense. I mean, as a developmental prospect, I just think that he's at least a little bit intriguing. I'm not sure I'd want to take him at 40 where the Saints are picking in the

second round. But if he's there at 71 and you're New Orleans, I think I can justify that. Yeah. Yeah, you could. I mean, they took Spencer Rattler with a fifth last year. I think so, yeah. Yeah, I mean, like keep taking swings. You know, you don't, you don't know who your 2026, 2027 quarterbacks are going to be. You know, take a swing on a guy this year on third round. Yeah, I think that makes total sense. If we're taking swings in the second round, Derek, you have to pick one of these three guys. Who is your swing or dart throw if I can be punny with Jackson Dart?

The cop-out I'm going to say is it just depends if you need a guy to start now or if you need development. What a coward you are. But I would say regardless, it would be shuck for me, probably. because I can at least see like, whether it's start or going down or we just don't have a guy, Shuck, I think you can get something out of today. Whereas DART, I just, you would have to package the offense like you do for Tua. And even then, I don't know if you would be able to do it immediately. And then with Milro, I think just mechanically it would take way too long.

Or it just wouldn't be ready in your one. So Shuck, you could at least convince me today we can play. And I still think Shuck has higher potential than Dart does. And not as much as Milro, but Milo is so much further away from it. that I'm like, Ed, what Chuck gives you is fine. I love that Derek got like six to a tongue of Iloa burns into this show talking about a completely different set of quarterbacks. I find a way.

Jesus. Tua just catching straight as this entire show. He's sitting there like, what did I do? It's though. I think you should leave hat meme for 65 straight minutes here. Dane, I assume your answer is just how your board is laid out. Would it probably be Jackson Dart or are you starting to talk yourself into Shuck a little bit? Well, no, I think it just, I mean, I'm going to take the cop out too.

If I'm the Browns, it's Shuck. Like, give me the guy that's ready to go. And, but if I'm the Rams, I would probably lean dark just because I think, you know, he can afford to sit and learn. And like, to me, that's, the circumstances really, really matter. And, but yeah, if I'm the Giants or the Browns, a Shuck from a Rams or one of these other teams, then it probably would be dark. This is one of my favorite shows that we do every single year. This is one of those days. I want you to answer that.

It's Shuck. Yeah, it's definitely shuck for me. Again, because the dart thing, I just, with Millero, I think it's two. the bridge is too far across. And with dirt, the feel thing really does concern me. I think that's something where that's an area of a quarterback's game where over time, I'm not sure that gets a ton better because I think that is something you just kind of innately have.

And I'm not sure he innately has it. So Shuck is probably the bet that I would make. Let's say that Shuck and Shador are on the board at 27 and you're the Browns and you're going to trade up to 20. You took Abdul Carter at 2. You're going to trade up to 27 and take a quarterback. Who are you taking? I can't believe you're making me do this in order to take the Shador heat.

Better you than me. Crickets. I think I'd probably take Shuck. Okay. Yeah. I think I would. I think the arm talent, the arm talent to me is what would talk me into it.

I just feel like, and I also think you can make an argument. Shuck moves better than Shadour does. I think he definitely does. Yeah, I know there's no doubt. If they both ran a 40-yard dash, Shuck's winning that. Yeah. So I think that's probably what I would talk about.

myself into. Again, it's the floor-stealing combination when Shador would worry me if I were a team taking him especially in the first round. I totally get it. And before we sign off, I want to mention Kyle McCord, Quinn Ewers, Will Howard, Dylan Gabriel. Those are kind of the next four guys. Yeah. And

everyone kind of looks at him a little bit differently. Like, Dylan Gabriel's got some big fans out of Oregon. Even though he's smaller and he's got a lot of fans. Some think he could go even in the third round, top 100. Will Howard, same type of thing. The way he played for Ohio State down the stretch. viewers has a ton of talent, just needs to stay healthy.

Then McCord, who, you know, got, he was the odd man out at Ohio State. And obviously things worked out for Ohio State, but they worked out okay for Cal McCord, too. Had a really good senior year for Syracuse. So, you know, there are some, when we started this process, mentioned how day two quarterbacks are more appealing than the day one quarterbacks. It's because of, you know, the couple guys we talked about here and then those four guys as well in that mix. All right. like I said, one of my favorite shows that we do every single year.

It's an absolute blast. Love kind of half kicking off our draft coverage really digging into it. I mean, we got about a month before the draft, right? I mean, we're four weeks away as of tomorrow. So we got four weeks until the draft. And so this feels like the right time to do this. And I always enjoy digging into it. Derek, fun to have you here for it for the first time.

It can be a fun thing to do each year. We will be back on Monday with our next mailbag. If you're listening to this on Thursday morning, you still have a little bit of time to send in your questions for next week's mailbag. Athletic Football Show at gmail.com is where you can do that. For now, that's all we got.

Appreciate you guys listening. We will talk to you very soon.