The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The Chargers, Commanders and Steelers kick off the annual TAFS Most Interesting Teams of the Offseason Series

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

Combine week brings together the entirety of NFL media, including The Athletic Football Show crew and The Athletic NFL beat writers. That's all the excuse we need to sit down with our beats and to talk about the most interesting teams of the offseason. On this first episode in the three-episode series, Robert Mays welcomes Daniel Popper on the Chargers, Nicki Jhabvala on the Commanders and Mike DeFabo on the Steelers.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)3:00 Los Angeles Chargers33:09 Washington Commanders52:11 Pittsburgh SteelersConnect with The Athletic Football ShowBuy our merch! http://theathletic.lnk.to/tafsmerchYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowPodcasts: https://podfollow.com/the-athletic-football-show/viewX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysWith: Daniel Popper, Nicki Jhabvala and Mike DeFaboExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. We are coming to you from Indianapolis, Indiana. It's the 2026 scouting combine. What are my favorite points on the NFL calendar every single year? Like, it's just become so routine to be back here at this time of year. Not the same sort of trip for me in this year. We talk about it with Popper.

I had a flat tire on the way here, which is a fun way to start the week. But other than that, it's very old hat. It's very comfortable. the places here. I'm very used to being here this time of year. I always look forward to the conversations. And one of my favorite parts about coming to the combine every year is that all of our NFL writers are here. And so that's typically how we've treated this week from our coverage perspective. And we're going to be doing the exact same thing again this year. The next three days on the athletic football show are going to be dedicated to nine teams that we are deeming,

the most interesting teams of the offseason. The criteria for this is all over the place. It could be teams with a lot of cap space. It could be teams that are experiencing a lot of turnover. It could be teams like the Pittsburgh Steelers are going to talk about today that have a dozen draft picks this year. So it's a big tense, the most interesting teams of the offseason. The three that we're starting with today, the Steelers, the Chargers and the commanders, just a bunch of different reasons that those are three that we wanted to hit. But a lot of teams with a bunch of capital this off season, the Steelers are at a point of transition. We hit the Steelers with Mike DeFabo as our third conversation today, kicking things off.

Daniel Popper digging into the Chargers, their pursuit of Mike McDaniel. This is a team with maybe upwards of $100 million in cap space to throw around this year. Now we also chat with our commanders writer, Nikki Javala, about the Washington commanders team that is very much in flux. Potentially like a dozen new starters for this team, they could have like 80-ish million in cap space, two new coordinators. So a lot to dig into with those three teams today. Let's get to it with each of those writers right now.

Joining us now to kick off our most interesting teams of the offseason series from a conference room in Indianapolis, Indiana. It's our old buddy. Our Chargers writer here at the athletic Daniel Popper. Popper, how are you doing, man? Doing great. Thanks for having me on. Ready to talk some football. I am excited to be here.

I am still settling myself. I got a flat tire on the way here and changed it on the highway. And so we had to push this back by like 15 minutes. But we made it. We made it. We're doing this. We're going to get through it. That's what India is all about.

Being flexible, being prepared for the moment. moment, you know? I was, I woke up yesterday in Lima. It was 82 degrees. And so changing a tire on the side of the highway on I-65 going south and it was 27 degrees outside. And wherever I was, it was a rude awakening. It was a reminder that the combine is here and we're doing this. Chargers are on this list for a few different reasons. The first of which is, yet again, they have a ton of cap space heading into this season. You and I were just talking before we started recording. You look at the cap sheet right now on something like over the cap it's around 80 million they can free up a decent amount of space with a couple more moves the offensive line play overall last year was a product i think

in part of the talent along the offensive line but also partially some of the issues with the staff the scheme everything else they move on from the offensive coordinator not a surprise when you watch what that performance looked like in the playoffs against the patriots it felt like it was a move you had to make yeah like that that's kind of the conclusion that i came to in your mind after watching it happen and after talking to people there, what do you think was the ultimate deciding factor and then moving on from Greg Roman? Three points in a playoff game.

Yeah, and then you combine it with what happened against the Texans last year and year one of the regime and their failure to protect in that game. But ultimately, like, in my opinion, over the course of the regular season, I thought Greg Roman actually did an okay job, considering what happened to tackle. Losing Rashon Slater before the season,

losing Joe Alt, and starting in week four and then again for the season in week nine, not having two of your five best players and your starting tackles really affected their ability to protect and play offense. And then you factor in all these other injuries that they had with Mackay Beckton and out of the lineup. They lost their swing tackle and Trey Pipkins for a period of time. They lost Jamari Salary.

He was their fourth tackle for a period of time with a knee injury. They had 25 different starting line combinations. So I think Greg Roman deserves a little bit of credit for how he navigated that situation and still allowing the chargers to get to 11 wins. but they did not play well enough in that playoff game. They went into that game and they should have been able to run the football. And Greg Roman, who is a run game guy, got away from the run when they had an opportunity to establish it early on in the game.

And so I think ultimately, you look at the body of work in both playoff games and it just wasn't good enough. And they needed an offensive coordinator who could come in and give the quarterback layups, engineer and manufacture offense through the scheme itself and not put all of this on Justin Herbert's shoulders. And in the last two playoff games, he just hasn't been himself. He hasn't played his best football. And there weren't any answers provided by the offensive scheme itself to get him out of

the funk, to get him back on track, to get him into a rhythm. And I think ultimately this move was about how do the Chargers get a playoff win? And they felt like they needed to make a change in an offensive coordinator to get the offense in a place where they could do that. Yeah, I can understand the case for Greg Grumman keeping that thing afloat with the situation to tackle. And I do think I get why you would say that. I also think that we're now multiple stops in a row at watching a Grey Grumman offense since

severely struggle to pass protect, even when the guys are healthy. Watching the interior, that trio of interior guys try to pass protect this year, even when they were all on the field, it's just untenable. And the end of the Baltimore era, that was their biggest issues. When teams would blitz them in high leverage games, they had no issues in past protection. And so I think that the talent and overcoming that was part of the discussion. but I also think that the infrastructure of a Greg Roman offense, multiple stops in a row, has shown real issues when you get to the most important games of the year. And so the idea that it was probably time to try something else.

I think we were always going to get to this place with Greg Roman and Jim Harbaugh. We got here probably a year earlier than I might have expected. Yeah, it's hard to separate those two things. Obviously part of it was the plan and the scheme, but he also had three players in the interior that struggled in that very specific area. Like Zion Johnson improved as a player. He's a really good run blocker. not good at seeing stuff in front of his face, twists, stunts, blitzes. He just doesn't have those types of instincts. Mackay Beckton, like, the reason that the Chargers signed him is because he was

an excellent run blocker in Philadelphia, but he's never been an elite past protector. So I think you have to at least acknowledge the talent level there and some of the weaknesses there. But I do agree with you. From a plan standpoint, it was never, it was never good. Guys, heads are spinning. It doesn't matter who's there. Whoever was there, their guy's heads are spinning consistently. And I think that ultimately, that's what puts you in a place where you have to seek out something else. Absolutely. The guy they seek out is Mike McDaniel, right? And so we talked a little bit about this, just you and I.

Yeah. From a buddy cop perspective, like watching Greg or Jim Harbaugh and Mike McDaniel interact for the next year is going to be something I'm very, very excited about. When it comes to the Mike McDaniel solution specifically, what do you think pushed them to him as the choice, independent of the idea that he was probably just the best play caller on the market period? Yeah, I think I start with providing layups for the quarterback. And Mike McDaniel did that better than anybody in the league, arguably, with two. Offense full of them. Yeah, and you go back and you watch the Miami offense over the course of McDaniel's tenure there. And there's just so many easy completions where he is scheming guys wide open.

And there's just not a lot on the quarterback's shoulders in terms of creating explosive offense. And I think they got to a point with Greg Roman with this offense where so much was put on Justin Herbert's shoulders. And when they were successful offensively, it was him doing absolutely outrageous stuff in off-structure situations. like the Philadelphia game on Monday night when he was pulling the ball in a non-zone read situation, just calling his own number to rush the football late in that game. I was a lot. It was, it's a lot of mental stress to go into a game and feel like you're not going to have any answers from your offensive coordinator to put you in an easy position to create explosive plays and that you have to be the offense entirely by yourself. Like that

wears on a player, even if you're as talented as Justin Herbert is. I think it creates bad habits too. Yeah. I think that there were moments in the playoff game specifically where there are open and he's just not letting throws go because he gets so quickly into creation mode because of what the structure of the offense look like the entire year. Right. And so being in a place where you make Daniel, more than anything, I think that his ability to get a quarterback to play on time and kind of create a track for the quarterback to play on, you can do more than that with Justin Herbert, obviously, but we saw him do that consistently with Tuah in Miami. Right. And then, so you get into these moments in the playoffs where like what's going on with Justin Herbert in the

playoffs, there's a lot to dig through. Right. It's not one thing, right? And then that's the issue. But what I'm saying is, like, he obviously has not played his best football in these moments. So something is going on. So do you have an offensive coordinator and a play caller who's going to be able to create and manufacture offense when your quarterback is not at that level that he typically is at? Can you get him back into a rhythm? Because that's what happened in that Patriots game is he was out of whack from the jump.

I mean, on that first drive of that game, he missed a wide open Ladd-McConkey in an off-structure situation. That would have been a touchdown. Just didn't see him. He wasn't seeing the field. well. So then it falls in the offensive coordinator. Like, okay, my guy is obviously not on the level that he's typically on. So how do we get into certain things offensively where he can just hit layups and move the ball because the offensive scheme is at a place where we can out scheme and out play call

the defense on the other side? They just weren't in that position. And I think by bringing Mike McDaniel in, you have a guy that's proven he's capable of doing that. And in those moments in the playoffs, you can get Justin Herbert back on track if he doesn't have his best stuff. We'll have a lot of time to talk about how Mike McDaniel fits with the personnel and we have a better sense of the personnel as well because there's going to be some changes. So I want to save that conversation. The last coaching thing, to hire Chris O'Leary to be their defensive coordinator after Jesse Minter moves on to be the head coach of the Ravens. Chris O'Leary was the safety's coach in 2024 during Jesse Minter's first year there. We spent the 2025 season as a defense coordinator for Western Michigan had come from Notre Dame.

So he's got a varied background. after kind of sitting with this for a little bit and talking to folks, why ultimately do they land on a 34-year-old one-year NFL assistant to be their defensive coordinator for what has been a top 10 defense last year? Yeah, I think they were looking at continuity, which I think is smart. You want to try and maintain some sort of scheme familiarity. You want to try and run a version of the same system. And I think that's why a lot of these interviews were focused on internal candidates.

Steve Klingskale, Dylan Roney, both interviewed their on staff currently. Chris O'Leary was the name that is an internal option, but he left partly for family reasons to go to Western Michigan. But I think a big thing that I came back to was so much of this defense and what makes it unique is the role that they developed for Derwin James. Chris O'Leary was the point man in developing that role. Now, obviously, the broader big picture version of it came from Jesse Minter. February, when Jesse first got the job, he met with Derwin and started planning out this role.

But in terms of enacting it, building it on a day-to-day basis, It was Chris O'Leary that was on the field with Derwin James walking through all of the different route combinations that he might see from the nickel position and really building that role for Derwin. So you're talking about the most important player in the defense is Derwin and all the different hats that he can wear in him at nickel and affecting the run game in those areas, affecting the past game. Chris O'Leary understands that role better than anybody else. You talk about his ability to onboard Elijah Molden, who they traded for in late August. He taught Molden the entire scheme in three days over the course of three, two and a half hour meetings. So I think it's the intellect. I think it's his familiarity with the scheme.

I think it's his ability to communicate the energy. I think a lot of that stuff reminds you of Jesse Minter. Chris O'Leary was actually a player at Indiana State when Jesse Minter was coordinating the defense there in 2011. That's when they first met. Jesse Minter gave Chris O'Leary his first coaching job at Georgia State in 2015. So they go way back. And then, most importantly, you turn on the Western Michigan tape. He's running Jesse's defense.

Like it took me until the first third down at the game. They're in third and 16. And they have three safeties deep. and they rotate to cover three out of it. And I'm like, that is Jesse Minter's scheme. So then I started checking around. And I'm like, is this actually Jesse's scheme? And what I heard was he took the Chargers installs and just put a Western Michigan logo at the top and brought it over.

And it looked like that on film. So I think you put all those things together. You're looking for familiarity. You're looking to maintain the scheme. You want the players to feel comfortable. You know, Chris O'Leary is very close with all these safeties, the guys that he worked with directly. I think you're talking about how do we get the next Jesse Minter. And I think they settled on Chris O'Leary is the guy that could potentially be that.

Let's look at what this off season might feel like specifically. We talked about the money. They could get up hundreds of $100 million in cap space based on a couple of small cuts that they could make. Start with the in-house guys first. They already bring back Tire Tart, who was excellent last year. I mean, you just had an unbelievable season. I think he doubles his A.A.V.

From the one-year deal that he signed last year, completely deserve it. It's about $10 million now. You have two edge rushers that are also free agents, two very different considerations, right? You have Kul-Macketing free agency after signing a one-year deal. We know what Kille-Mack is at this point. his career. Still a very good every down edge rusher. I think someone if I were a contender, if I were the Bears

right now and Cleo Mac wanted $18 million, I would think about it. Because I just think he's somebody that as part of a rotation still has a lot to offer. But he's what? 33 now. 35. He's into age 35 season. See ageless Kalomack. Yes. Age 35 season. You have Adafay-OA on the other opposite

end of this. Young ascending. He's a rookie contract. He's only 27. Was extremely productive as a past rusher last year, but is more limited. Like, right? He's a smaller player. He's more of a pass-risher than he is a run stuffer. And so you have those two different skill sets, both hitting free agency at the same time. My assumption is they'd probably want to prioritize O.A.

just based on the age and based on what he did in the back half of the season, do you see a world where with some of that space, they bring back one or both of those guys? That's what I'm thinking is that both of them come back. That's what I think right now. Because I asked Joe Hortiz after the season, I was like, you know, I cannot wait until they bring back all their guys inside no one in free agency. I cannot wait until that happens. The beauty is they can re-sign all their guys and sign guys in free agency,

which I think is ultimately what's going to end up happening. And we'll get to some of these other guys because I think there's some interesting conversations on other internal free agents. In order for this defense to be at its best, you have to have three high-quality edge rushers. And I think they learn that. Every team needs that, right? Yeah.

I think they learned that early on last season, though, when they tried to go into it, you know, after Joey Bosa left, and they went into it with Tulean Khalil and Kalil got hurt, and they were in a bad spot. even with Tully Pallotu ascending. And so they went out and they traded for Dothai O'i to bring back a really good group of three edge rushers. And all of a sudden, that trio when they were on the field was producing pressure 55% of the time. So I think they have to keep that group together.

And also I think, and we've talked about this a lot, you have a green defensive coordinator. And I think you have to give him talent. With Jesse Minter, you knew that he was going to be able to do more with less. I think now the philosophy has to flip almost 180 degrees where you felt like you had to give Greg Roman a bunch of talent on offense. You could kind of give the defense less and you felt like Jesse Minter was still going to produce a top 10 group. Now it's kind of flipped where you have a green defensive coordinator. You probably have to give him more talent.

And now you've gone out and gotten an elite offensive coordinator that you feel like might be able to do more with less. So I think you keep that group together. The other thing I would add here with the edge rushers, those three play really well together. They all complementary skill sets for sure. Complementary and they are also very unselfish if you watch how they rush. Like each one of them is willing to be the pick player and the stunt to provide an opportunity for another edge rusher. And I think you can see that in the film over and over again throughout the year. They have the space.

They know that group of three works well together. There's no guesswork involved. And I think you might be like willing to pay a little bit more for the known quantity. But I think both of those guys will be back. That's where I'm at right now. We'll see what happens with Always Market. you know, I think ideally you'd love to resign him at like 19 a year, which is what Josh Swett got. I ended up projecting him in my free agent rankings at like 22 a year, but they can

make it work with the cap. There are a lot of those types of players available in free agency. We're going to do a show. I'm deciding this right now because I was thinking about it in the car. We're going to do a show next week. I think the first free agent preview show I want to do is just like an overview of the class itself. The qualities of it, is it good, is it bad? Where are the strengths? Where are the weaknesses? And then if you look at the pass pressure specifically, there are a lot of those like kind of undersized like bendy guys, like OAS is a speed rusher, boy OMAFAS is a speed rusher. There's all of those guys in this group.

And so that might push his market down a little bit, right? If you have two of those guys, there's not just like one player at the top. Like Maffa is probably going to be in a similar sort of conversation and be my guess. Yeah, 100%. So those, the edge rushers, I think that all makes total sense. Here's where I say with this. Okay. You have, let's say that eats up, you know,

obviously those guys are going to, the number for 2026 is going to be lower than the AAB. Let's say you still have like $55 million to work with after that's over. What happens with the interior offensive line? Like what? Because last year, I understood it in the moment and I think this is going to be the push in the poll with the chargers. Joe Ortiz is not going to want to spend more on free agents than they're worth. He's not going to want to do it.

And so prioritizing the in-house guys with that money, it's not surprising to me. But we saw what the half measure along the interior of the offensive line looked like last year. there are a ton of interior offensive linemen going back to the class available in free agency this year some are going to cost a lot but i think there are a lot of connective tissue type guys who also might be available so is this the year after kind of letting their foot off the gas in the market last spring where they do spend a little bit because at this point they kind of have to to fix those positions specifically i think they have to so here's what i would do i would resign zion johnson because i don't think there's a better like a better option of available on the free agent market than Zion. The only person I had rated higher than Zion the free agent market was Seamalo from Pittsburgh. I think I'd rather have David Edwards. You have David Edwards.

Right. There's some other guys. But I thought Zion from week 13 to week 18 played the best football of his career. Now, the question is where does his market go? You know, you don't want to give Zion Johnson the Aaron Banks deal because that would be a bad deal. But for me, I think they re-signed Zion because it makes the puzzle pieces fit together a little bit more easily. The question is, will they spend at center?

Like, will they spend to figure this out? I think they should. The question is, is Tyler Linderbaum even going to be available? There are fewer centers available than guards. Yes. With the center, it's like you're either shopping at the top of the market with Linderbom or McGovern and then McGovern. I like Cade Maze personally.

Luke Fortner's another guy I would throw out that I thought played decent football for New Orleans after replaced Eric McCoy. But it's basically four guys. If Linderbom returns to Baltimore, McGovern returns to Buffalo, like, how do you feel about Cade Maze? How do you feel about Luke Fortner? it gets a little bit more difficult to figure that spot out. It's not a good center class in the draft.

Dane's highest rated center is 86th overall. So going that route is a little bit difficult. But if you do resign Zion, you can figure out the other two positions because if they move on from Mackaybackton, they're going to have to figure out right guard. If you don't resign Zion, you're not looking for three new starters on the interior.

That is really, really difficult to do in one-off season between free agency and the draft. Yeah. Teams came in the Bears landed the plane last year, but it's hard to pull off. I mean, that was incredible. Yeah. Right. That was like one of the most impressive, like, feats along the offensive line that I've seen from a team building perspective in a long time.

But like, it's very, very challenging to do. And you have to get creative in terms of the trade market. You can't just attack free agency. Because like, let's be real. If David Edwards hits free agency, he's going to have a lot of interest. If there's a like, like average to quality starting offensive linemen available, they get paid. Because, and there's a reason for that. because there's just not a lot of supply.

There's a reason Dan Moore got $20.5 million a year last year. Well, that's, tackles are different than guards. Right, right. And it's, and there are. But Aaron Banks. Aaron Banks is the example.

19.15 million dollars a year for a guy that, to me, is a below average starter. Yeah, there are. And the guard market obviously has exploded over the last couple years when it comes to the high end guys. But with, I think with guards specifically, it's easier to find a starting level guard in free agency, even if the top guys are getting paid,

then it is to find a starting level tackle. Like, how many starting level free agent tackle? are going to be even available this offseason. It's like two. That's it. Yeah, it's very few guys. Right tackle.

Right. Right. Those are my two. Braden Smith's in Jerusalem. Right. And then Brayden Smith is there are concerns about age and history and out and out there. I'll throw Elijah Wilkinson in there too, started at right tackle for the Falcons.

I actually did not mind Elijah Wilkins. He was a top 50 guy for me in my rankings. But there are not that many guys. No. Right. And so I, the idea of them trying. I, if there are a bunch of paths you can take here, right? One of them is,

you sign Tyler Linderbaum to like a big money contract and then you skimp out on the guard. Or do you just sign two guys at mid-level deals at center and guard? That to me feels more likely than them breaking the bank on Linderbom, even if there's familiarity with Lenderbom. Right. But that's two guys. So let's say you go sign like Wyatt Teller, for example, and Kade-Maze. If you're talking about like mid-level guard contracts, what are you doing at left-guard?

Because you're either going to re-sign Zion or then you have to find that answer somewhere else. I would imagine, I don't know if they have to walk in. into week one with like three guys that they've invested in free agency. I think two investments plus trying to figure the rest out in the draft. I think that's an acceptable path forward. Yeah. I think that's fair. I just to me like when I've sort of game this out in my head, it's made it a lot easier to figure out the starting offensive line when Zion Johnson is in the picture. That's kind of where I'm at. Do you think that they want him back? Yes. Okay. Yes. It's going to come down to the market. They love Zion. I mean, you think about what happened on the offensive line this past season.

he played every snap before week 18 when they didn't play starters because they already had their playoff seating figured out. Like he's like there was a day where he got a root canal done at like 11 a.m. He was on the practice field at 2 p.m. Like he, there's a lot of stuff with Zion that I think Jim Harbaugh loves. I think Joe Ortiz loves. And he really like put it together. And we might not agree with this.

But I feel like week 13 after they're by until week 18, he put it together and was like the level of player that people thought he was going to be when he was a first round pick. I thought it was his best past protection stretch of his career. He was seeing stunts and blitzes at a level that he was not previously. And he really became like an elite elite run blocker. Now the Patriots game, he went back to his old self, which is, you know, it gives you some pause. But I thought that stretch showed me that he's going to be worth resigning. I would not go to $19 million a year.

But if he, if you can get Zion Johnson back for $15, $17 million a year, I think that's a consideration because if you bring him back, then you can talk about the strategy that you're going with, which is like, okay, try and shot mid-market at right guard and center, which is possible based on the names out there, and maybe you've got this thing figured out. There will be a chunk of money allocated to the defensive line. We will see how that actually gets allocated over the next month here. We know everyone's thinking about the offensive line. Everyone wants to see what the charges are going to do along the offensive line. What am I not thinking about enough when it comes to the areas of the roster that need addressing, that need bolstering?

And this could mean in free agency, but this could also mean in the draft. Like what are the other positions that we should be thinking about with the available capital here for this team over the next two months? Yeah, I think in tier defensive line, they got Tierre Tart back. And I think Tierre is a really good player, but he is a disruptor. He likes to get upfield. He likes to take chances. He has to play next to a two-gapping, solid run defender who is disciplined and will stay in his gaps and control the line of scrimmage and take on double team so that T.R. Tare Tart can be the player that we saw last season.

Last season, that guy was Deshawn Hand. The year before that, it was Puna Ford. What do they do there? Do they re-sign Deshawn Hand, who's coming off a really good season? Probably have to pay a little bit more. Do they try and do the same thing again where they find a low-cost free agent that way outperforms the contract like they did with Puna and Deshaun. I think that's a situation that they have to figure out. I think they need to invest at corner.

I might be alone in this, but I like their group of corners. Like I like Dante Jackson. I like Tarheep still. I like Cam Hart. But again, when I'm thinking about green defensive coordinator calling plays in the NFL for the first time, like, I want to give that guy talent. And so could they go with a corner at 22 in the first round and really try and find a legit potential number one outside corner? That's a spot that I'm looking at as a possibility as well. And then tight end is an interesting group that I would throw out.

You know, Ronde Gadsden, fifth round rookie last year had a good year. We'll see what happens with Will Disley. You know, I think they could bring Will Disley back and he could block well in this offense. but again, there's a very specific type of tight-end full-back that McDaniel likes in his offense or that move piece that can affect the passing game, run block, you know, who do they sort of look for in that role is Will Disley a fit there? Do they look for somebody maybe a little bit more athletic? So those are the other areas of the roster that would throw out.

Yeah, just the heavy personnel considerations in general, because if they want to be a 21 personnel team, Scott Matlock is not the type of fullback that Mike McDaniel is going to want. Right. And so from a multi-time end perspective, Gessen was nice as a pass catcher last year. he has 235 pounds. He can't really block. They need somebody else to kind of fill out that room. The other spot I'm curious about safety next to Elijah Muldon.

Because the whole point of being able to use Derwin in the slot is if you have two safeties, you feel comfortable playing. Tony Jefferson was that last year. Tony Jefferson is 47 years old. So I wonder who that. He's 33 for the record. So they, I think some, addressing that in some way in order to make sure you can keep Derwin where he belongs, I assume that's also part of the plan.

Yeah, so RJ Mickens, six-round pick last year. That was going to ask you. He did play last year. Yeah, you just, you need somebody that you feel okay about in the deep part of the field. Like, can you be the post-safety? Like, can you make that important tackle if something bleeds through? Like, do you have the eyes to, like, play some of these different rotational coverages in the back end?

I think RJ Mickens meets that threshold. I think you need a little more depth there because if you are playing Derwin and the nickel, Elijah Moldens battled some injuries, you need another piece that you can rely on there. That solution to me is pretty easy because you could just bring Tony back. and keep that group of four together and feel pretty good about it. Otherwise, you know, they've proven very capable from a personnel standpoint of finding DBs on day three and turning them into starting players. Cam Hart, Tarib's still a corner.

RJ Mickens played well for them last season. So I think they have to find a fourth safety. To me, though, like, if you get down the road and you're still looking for that guy or you don't feel great about the draft class, you know, get Tony back in there and you feel good about it. I joke about the issue. He's also a free agent. That's the reason.

That's the reason I'm thinking about how they might have to replace. But he said a career high interceptions last year. Yeah. He played fine. I mean, if they wanted to do that and that was the answer, I wouldn't be upset about it. But they do need to do something because he is hitting free agency. They need a fourth guy for sure. It is Monday, February 23rd.

Free agency starts, what, like the 14th and 15th of March? March 9th. My God, it gets earlier every year. It feels like, so free agency starts March 9th. I cannot wait on March 12th when I'm sitting there talking down Chargers fans off the ledge because they haven't spent any money. It's going to be a really, really fun experience. Oh, you're going to be doing that.

Well, I don't be as well. I'll be doing it. Yeah, you're going to be sitting there. You're going to be sitting there on one of those streams just like making, giving people the therapy that they desperately need. I had 550 people on my live stream when they signed McKayne Bechton. Concurrent viewers. All jokes aside, it is a fun push-pull because you go last year where they're not aggressive at all. They very much follow the, we are the Baltimore Ravens.

This is how we're going to spend our money. We're not going to overpay for guys. And for the most part, that's let you hits in free agency. That gets you your Puna Fords and your tire your tarts. And I think that's probably, it's the right way to approach it. But I think that every once in a while when you have moments like the offense bottoming out, the line bottoming out the way that they did, it pushes you to a level of urgency you wouldn't have had before. And so those two things pulling and pushing in opposite directions, I'll be very curious between those two poles where Hortiz and this front office land this spring specifically.

It's easy to operate that way early in a regime. Yes. You're two years into this thing. You went and got Jim Harbaugh to coach your football team and you have zero play. off wins. Ultimately, the urgency starts to factor in in terms of how you go about it. And we were talking to Joe Ortiz after the season. And he said, if you're going to spend in free agency, you have to feel good about the player and you have to know the player. I'll just leave it at that. Because that, you know, Joe Ortiz was involved in Baltimore when they drafted a certain

center that might be hitting free agency. That's the one where it's very easy to make the connections. We'll see if those connections are enough to make them the team that's going to chase after Tyler and a bomb. Danipopper, always. great to chat with you, sir. I hope that the Chargers spent a decent amount of money that first week of free agency so we could potentially have you potentially have you back on to chat about it. But for now, that's all we got. Enjoy the Combine. It's good to see you. Good to see it as well. Thanks for having me. All right. Before we talk to Nikki about the commanders, let's take our first quick break. Joining us now as we keep rolling through our most interesting teams of the off season. It is our Washington

commander's writer here at the athletic. Nikki Jopval. Nick, how you doing? I'm good. How are you? Good. It's great to see you. It's great to see everyone. everybody. I'm very happy to be here. It's always good to be back in Indianapolis at this time of year. This is my trying to do the math on it. It's 26. So this is my 17th combine. Okay. That's, which feels insane. Yes. The first time I ever came was in 2009. I was in college. And so I came twice while I was in college. Yes. So the fact that I was able to stack up a couple before I even started doing this was. Yeah, that's not fair. I feel like she did. Yeah.

I think this is 13 for me. Yeah, how are getting old? We really are. I was joking with my wife. I've stayed at that JW in Indianapolis more than any other hotel in the world. Yes. Which is insane to think about at this point. But it is very true.

High velocity. That's right. I'm looking forward to my first one in about five hours here. The commanders are on this list for a bunch of different reasons. But I think it just starts with the amount of turnover that we're going to see not only with their roster, but with the coaching staff. And so we're talking about two new coordinators. And then something you said that I will dig into in a second. But when I was reading a mailback that you did with your listeners last week, you were talking about somebody asked you the amount of like surefire or locked in starters.

You think there are on the roster. You said seven guys. Yeah. Seven players. Yeah. And so that is not necessarily shocking for the average team in the NFL that has $75 million in cap space. That's the amount of turnover you might expect. For a team that was in the NFC championship game two years ago,

The fact that we're dealing with two new coordinators and maybe a dozen new starters First year coordinators and maybe a dozen starters. It's just a level of turnover that it would have been really, really difficult to imagine this a year ago at this time. Yes. I don't think they imagine it clearly. I think there was a miscalculation at some point. And I mean, they had won, what, seven of nine games at some point. and then they decided to trade for Marshawn Lattimore right before the deadline. I think that's probably a move they would like to have back.

Did not pan out the way they had hoped. It's probably the worst one, right? Yeah. If you're the DACA. I mean, because the Diba won, the price isn't that prohibitive. Yeah. It's like, whatever. He was what he was last year.

Yeah, you get some dead money. He was really the only healthy receiver they had last year. So it's fine. And Tunsel, I don't mind. You get a heck of a, you know, left tackle. You need, that's going to be costly no matter what. The only reason the tons of one has drawbacks right now is just because you made it when you were in a very different point as a franchise. And so even if the, when you look at the price and you look at the player, you can square those two things.

When you add the third layer of now you don't have a second or fourth round pick in this year's draft, that's where it gets a little bit more complicated. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Like when you think about what they gave up for them and what they still have, I think that's a move that you might be open to again. It's just when you combine it with everything else that has sapped resources. from them, that's where it's just like, it doesn't really square with who we are what we need right now. And it comes in a tough year where, yes, they have the number seven pick. I think they would consider moving back, but what team is going to want to move up in a year where there's, it's not a deep quarterback class.

There's a ton of edge rushers. Maybe most teams feel like, okay, we can stay pat or, you know, try to get one in a ladder round. So they may not have an opportunity to move back if that's something they were looking. at. Let's just stick with that for right now. So let's say they stay with the seventh overall pick. Obviously, it's going to depend on a bunch of different factor who's available there. But when you think about the positions that most need addressing, and I'm sure you've taken at least a look at what the pool of players looks like in the top 10, what do you think are a couple of the options that might be worth chasing for them at seven? Eddresher, no doubt. I can see it like if Caleb Downs is there, might they consider taking a safety?

Like he would be sort of a game changer for the back end of the defense. But if he's gone, You got to go edge rusher. I think they've put off signing an elite edge rusher for the longest time. I mean, they had at one point, like four first round picks, and the group couldn't play cohesively together. It just didn't work. But then since Adam Peters and Dan Quinn came on, they didn't have an elite eddresher in year one,

didn't have one last year. I think Von Miller's exceptional. I covered him in his prime. I don't think a 36-year-old von Miller could be considered an elite edresser. at this point, though he still led the team in Sacks. But they got to get better up front. They got to get better on the entire defense, but especially up front. And they got to get some elite talent there.

That makes a lot of sense. It's beyond just the Yvonne-Moeh thing. Jacob Martin's a free agent. And Dietrich Wise is a free agent. So now you're digging into the depth at that position, let alone the fact that they probably need a high on talent there anyway. So let's stick with the defense first because this is a team that right now, after releasing Marshawn-Latimore, you're looking at like 85, 90,

million dollars in cap spaces. So that's the silver lining here, right? Is that even if you spent a lot of draft capital to try to microwave this little window, you still have a lot of financial flexibility to add to the roster this spring specifically. They also have 30 free agents because they signed a bunch of guys to one or two year deals and now they're expiring. And they did it on purpose to give themselves some flexibility. But now they have a lot of holes to fill. And they don't have the depth right now to really field a full team to like really you know play well um so they're gonna have to sign a lot of players so that can go fairly quick just so kind of go back to one step when you were talking about those

seven guys that you felt like we're locked in starters the only position group that is really like okay we're all set here the offensive line is like well positioned they need to resign their guard their left guard but other than that they're they're they're pretty decent there you know but that's it any every other position group is kind of completely up in the air right now So as you're thinking about that huge pool of money and the 10 or so needs that they have, what do you think like a reasonable free agent strategy for this Washington team looks like? That could be positions. It could be specific players.

Like what of your initial thoughts on this, Ben? Yeah. So I look at more of Adam Peters history. And it's hard to do because it only has two years as the GM, you know, but he's been the assistant, you know, with John Lynch for the while. he came up under, you know, John Elway and Belichick kind of, how did they do things in the draft? And, like, I think only a couple times he's taken a receiver in the first round. I wouldn't be surprised if he did it because there's so much talent in this year's draft. And if you can find a playmaker, I mean, you've got to give Jaden Daniel some options here.

But I would still be surprised given their needs. You know, would he take 10? Yeah, that'd be high unless it's like a Cornell Tate. type, you know, like, I would think that's somebody you try to get in the latter rounds of the draft. In terms of free agency, I think you're looking at depth guys. Might they try to sign like Jalen Phillips type on the edge and get a veteran safety? You need some veterans on the back end of the defense. I would think that the defense tight end, they got to get a pass catching tight end.

Might they look there for free agency? I say it likely is a free agent. Jailen Phillips actually does make some sense. I think with this team specifically. like they're a team that has a need there. They have the money to spend. The other position group, like safety needs addressing. Safety linebacker is, I can't foresee them bringing back Poppy Wagner.

Just they got to get younger across the board. I mean, they were old and at times looked old last season. So I think them having, let's say, five or six new starters via free agency and defense, as somebody just like on the outside looking in at first glance, that seems like a reasonable possibility. Would you say that there's a chance they could have like half the defense is made up of free agent starters from this class? Yes. I think they need a new starting safety.

They need another corner. They need at least one linebacker, a couple edge rushers, another defensive tackle maybe. Yeah, they need a lot. Two guys specifically that I want to ask you about. What happens with Duran Payne in your opinion? Good question. He has a $28 million cap at this year. They would save $17 million if they were to move on from.

him cut or trade. Yeah. I think they keep them because of the number of holes they have to fill. I do wonder if they try to do something else with this deal to try to lower the cap hit this year. That's a tough. That's going to be a big hit. And then you also got to look at, I mean, Laramie Tunsell has a year left on his deal,

but could you do something there to lower his cap hit, you know, just pro-rate it more? So that's, those are two that I think you're looking at the. cap charge. And then Terry, you're going to have to eat that salary charges here. So with receivers. Yeah. What about Brandon Ayyuk? Like, that's the one where if I was just trying to play matchmaker with a team, a need, because you have on two levels, right?

He has the familiarity with Peters from San Francisco. He played with Jaden Daniels at Arizona State. They have money and they have a huge need, not only just a huge need for like, but that specific type of skill set specifically. Yes. I can just imagine there being a lot. a lot of reasons they would seek that out. Obviously, that's a hornet's nest when it comes to, like, all the things you have to worry

about. Right. But that player team match is one of the ones that kind of most quickly came to mind for me. Yeah. I mean, that's the one I go back and forth on. Like, does it make sense? Does it not make sense? I mean, and the ways you pointed out, it absolutely makes sense.

I mean, you know, Jayden, Danielson, Brayne and I would love that. I mean, they've made that very clear many times. And that's the hope, right? Is that, like, why could we get more out of him? why could maybe we rely on him in a way that other teams couldn't? He wants to be there. Like he's been open about the fact that he would want to be there. But can you still rely on him, given how extraordinary the circumstances were?

I mean, I've never seen anybody. I would say that's dicey at best. Give up $27 million, but okay. And then the other thing is, is his health, you know, would he be ready for the start of this season? I mean, he's, that was a significant injury. Yeah. So is that something else that they have to take into consideration?

But yeah, they need a receiver help. He's a good one. The quarterback likes them. The GM drafted him. Yeah. The last thing I'll ask you, the coaching stuff. Yep. The defense completely understand why it was time to move on.

This is one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. They bottom out. Dan Quint takes back play calling, what, 10 weeks into the year about? And so them moving on and going with guy like Durante Jones. Durante Jones is somebody that was on my radar as, like, one of those assistants that was probably in line to be a DC. the trying to steal some version of that Minnesota Vikings defense. It was going to happen at some point. Some team was going to see, can we get our own version of this?

And so on every single level, them bringing him into run the defense totally tracks to me. The offense is one where it's a little bit more complicated because you have a top five unit in 2024 that drives the season that you had when you go to the NFC championship game. This year was a lot more inconsistent, a lot more up and down, but you can explain a lot of it away because you're starting to start. and quarterbacked in play for half the year. So you've written about this, you've talked about this, you've reported on this, but for people who maybe don't have as good a sense of the dynamics at play with Cliff and with Washington, ultimately, why do you think they decided to go in a different direction? And why do you think David Blow was the guy that, because it's an interesting kind of middle

ground. You're bringing back somebody that was on the staff, but I could imagine the offense looking much, much different because of how hyper-specific of a coach Cliff Kingsbury is. Right, right. And so a few things first. Like, I feel like 2024, the success they had then sort of massed a lot of their deficiencies. I mean, they had an easier schedule. They were really healthy, you know, very fortunate to be healthy deep into the season. And the, in the offense, I mean, Jaden Daniels was Superman for them on offense.

So they were able to get away with a lot more. I mean, it's not like the defense played great that season. No, they did. stretch. Then you come into 2025, you got a harder schedule. I think their starters missed like a hundred something games combined with injuries, including Jane Daniels. I mean, the receiving core was out for much of the season. Their safety, top safety was out for much of the season. I mean, literally every position was effective. Zach Gertz, their primary tight end out. So it affected them a lot. And the defense was essentially Dan Quinn's defense.

So when he took over, there wasn't, they had like two games where it sort of incited some change, but it didn't last. I don't think they had the personnel, the talent to run the defense they were running. But as far as Cliff goes, I think they looked at it as we need to find a way to keep Jaydon Daniels durable. We need to find a way to help him help us, basically, to steal the Jeremy McWireland. And running up tempo more than any other team, I mean, it was extraordinary, obviously. that's what he does. It's Chip Kelly style, right? It was just not going to work long term they viewed. So they want to get them under center more. They started to do more under center with Marcus Marriota and the backups late in the season. But they want to do that more. And that's going to be a big focus. I could see Blouse defense looking much more like a Ben Johnson type of defense with more West Coast principles than anything. And I think that's a direction they wanted to go in. it's this brings me back to just like the last kind of larger point that I would make about this team it kind of feels like a weirdly blank slate for a team that did as much as they did in 2024 like they're starting over and so the idea that the defense might look I mean schematically it's going to look very different but personnel wise like you you're kind of starting from zero with resources so they can remake this thing however they want to and that's they're one of the teams I'm most interested in watching in free agency because their priorities and how they speak

bend on defense, I think it's going to tell us so much about what type of team they want to be. Like if they were the Jalen Phillips team, I'd be like, cool, I can understand that. But if they didn't decide to do that and they tried to spread out the investments along the front and kind of be more like that the Minnesota team was where they weren't really reliant on a four-man pass rush. And so they pay Jonathan Granard, but they, that team was, it was a more of a, the composition of the group was more important than any one single pass rush, right? Right. And so, or do they kind of focus their resources on the back end? Because what we saw from that

Minnesota team specifically is that the veteran kind of pieces on the back end and the types of players they sought out in the secondary allow them to play the way they wanted to play. And so how they kind of shape the defense with the resources that they have to me is one of the more like fascinating considerations of the entire offseason. Right. And I don't, I don't think every coach does it well. I think every coach says they do it. You know, we're going to, we're not going to, you know, try to make our personnel fit our scheme. We're going to make our scheme fit our personal. Well, not every coach does that, you know,

but they're going to have to find ways with the guys that they have because they do have some talent on that roster, no doubt. But it's interesting. It's also a huge gamble. I mean, this is year three for Dan Quinn and Adam Peters. They had one successful season. I feel like the NFL is becoming, you know, the urgency is greater than ever.

I mean, I feel old in saying that I remember when coaches got at least two years. to like prove themselves they don't get that anymore they this he went to the nfc championship game two years ago if they win six games this year tan quid's gonna be fired like it's not i don't even there's nothing ambiguous about it like and you said this last week in something that you wrote just like he's gonna be he's on the hot seat coming into the year when you fired both of your coordinators your time the the hourglass is turned over for you as a head coach and so that's where this team is And I still, even understanding and living through the season that we did last year, it's hard for me to come to terms with because of just how fast the pivot happened.

The whiplash is absolutely there. So this will be a team I'm watching very closely because of that pile of money and because of all the needs they have. And so the first week of free agency will be very notable for them. And maybe we will be talking to you again then. Yeah. Neat job. Thank you very much for the time.

Great to see you. And we'll talk to you again very soon. Sounds good. Thank you. All right. Before we talk to Mike about the Steelers, let's take our second quick break. Joining us now to round out our first of three episodes about the most interesting teams of the 2026 off season. It is our Steelers writer here at the athletic.

Mike DeFabo. How you doing, man? Well, I like the way you described it most interesting because the Steelers were very interesting. They are not a boring football team this year at all. Well, let's talk about that. So my first question to you is, And I think I know the answer to this based on the decisions that they made in the route that they chose to go with the head coach. But I think there are other pivot points associated with this roster that the way that they handle them could even push us further in one of those directions.

In your mind, as somebody who covers this team who talks to people around this team, what do the Steelers want to be in 2026? They believe that they are a wide receiver and a couple shiny pieces and a 43-year-old quarterback, away from winning their first playoff game in a decade. And I think that the biggest problem with the Steelers is that is their goal right now, it seems. It seems that their ultimate goal is what can they do to snap this now near decade drought without a playoff win that contributed significantly to Mike Tomlin stepping away and his 10 years souring at the end?

And I think that they're losing track of the larger vision, which is your goal should not be to win a playoff game. Your goal is to win the Super Bowl. and they are so close to like they're always in the conversation but never in contention. But these nine and seven seasons, nine and eight or ten and seven seasons keep convincing them. They're so close. They're just they almost were competitive, but there's such a difference between a non-losing season and actually winning something when it matters in the playoffs. This was a team that I think had come to a crossroads when it came to their identity, how they wanted to operate, who they wanted to be this offseason.

The Mike Tomlin era, we know what it was. There were stretches in the early aughts that were spectacularly successful. And after that, it was remarkably consistent. Like, that's what it was. And I think at the end, it got remarkably consistent in a way that no longer served the Steelers. And so them coming to this spring. and after my Tomlin steps away, them kind of getting to choose

as two roads diverged, they got to pick one. And the one they chose was, let's stay as close to what we were before as we possibly could be. That to me, it was disappointing. It was. And when I sit there with this team,

that is the prevailing kind of feeling that I have, is that Mike McCarthy, and we've talked about this in the show multiple different times, Mike McCarthy is not like a bumbling buffoon. Mike McCarthy has won 10 games, a lot of times as an NFL head coach that's really hard to do. But like you just said, the goal shouldn't be to win 10 games.

So the idea that we're now trying to essentially have the offensive version of the Mike Tomlin Steelers, I just, it's hard to look at that mindset and that set of choices. And as somebody in my seat get overly excited about where this team is and what they want to be. And you're not the only one who feels that way. I think a huge portion of the fan base, even when his name serves, circulated was thinking maybe they were doing this as a favor to a guy, you know, just interviewing him to get his name out there. That was the initial impression from some fans. And when they ultimately ended up hiring him, there was a very negative response from the fan base. Because this is a fan base that, as you mentioned, this consistency turned to mediocrity, turned to stale.

And Steelers fans are so desperate for something different, I think that they literally would have been willing to tolerate something bad if it meant swinging for the fences. And everyone thought because of the way the Steelers had done business, they're going to go get some kind of a young, probably defensive-minded coordinator. Chris Shula was a name that was very popular and floated in Pittsburgh as that guy. And people would have liked that. I think that they just wanted something new, something fresh. And because this is not, 62 years old is not something new and something fresh, I think

that that's where fans are very frustrated. Truth be told, like the Steelers, they had their formula. It was always young, defensive-minded. They went completely the opposite direction. So you want to say, well, they broke their mold. They did something very different. They did something unstealer-like. In reality, this was very stealer-like because it was in a lot of ways the safest thing they could have done.

They're measured in the way that the Steelers have been recently. The most risk-averse decision that they could have made and the least creative. And that, and that, I think, is what. frustrates fan base was with this higher. And we've talked a lot about the McCarthy thing and we don't need to belabor the point, but I think one of the reasons, it's the first question here that leads into the larger

discussion about the Steelers this offseason is that that choice informs the other choices that are going to be made. And the first one of those is the quarterback. Am I wrong to think that by bringing in Mike McCarthy and like you just said, we think we're this and this away and we're trying to build off of whatever level we

set last year? That level included Aaron Rogers. And so do you think the 2020 26 version of the Steelers will also include Aaron Rogers. I think that it will if you had to bet on a team or an outcome. I think the most likely outcome of the possibilities would be Aaron Rogers coming back to Pittsburgh next year, reuniting with Mike McCarthy. And like, I want to make this point about Mike McCarthy as well really quickly. They are not bringing him in for Aaron Rogers or to entice Aaron Rogers, but so they can

hopefully get out. of their current quarterback purgatory. Now, they might have to put a veteran band-aid on one more time with Aaron Rogers, but the goal really is he got this job because of his work with quarterbacks. And that's what the Steelers sold themselves on was they're in this situation because Mike Tomlin was unable to identify, draft, and develop the successor to Ben Rathesberger. If they bring in a guy that has worked with Rogers, Fav, you know, the list goes on and on, maybe he can help them develop that quarterback.

But to bring it full circle, yes, I think that there's very high likelihood that Aaron Rogers is going to be a Pittsburgh Steeler one more year. Here's my issue with that, though. Who is that quarterback and where are you going to find him? Because, and this might not be the year to do that. It's unfortunate that for them, this team has 12 picks. They have three in the third round. They have two in the fourth round. They have a ton of draft capital this year.

This is not the year to be finding a quarterback. So I get that. We're bringing Rogers back. doesn't cut off any pathways to a young quarterback in this draft, but it does cut off potential pathways to a young quarterback. Like, if there were no, the opportunity cost of Rogers to me is part of the problem with choosing to go the Aaron Rogers route. Because if you bring back Aaron Rogers, you're not going to be the Malik Willis team.

And that, to me, I don't need this team to tear it down. There's talent here. They don't need to tear it down. But the idea of choosing some higher ceiling options at a couple of these really important roles like quarterback, that's what I would have led. to have seen. And because you have the Rogers McCarthy pairing now, that's what you can no longer do. Right. No, I agree with you. The thing is they were planning to draft a quarterback. They had stockpiled draft picks. They traded George Pickens. It was clear. This was absolutely the past.

Because they were trying to make a huge splash. The draft is in Pittsburgh. They land their future franchise quarterback. They've got plenty of draft capital get it done. But as you mentioned, that 2026 class has basically fallen apart. Fernando Mendoza is going to go first overall. So really the only question that they could, or a decision they could make is do they like Ty Simpson? Or do they want to potentially take a swing on a Garrett Nussmeyer in like the second or third round, something like that? And in both of those instances, there would be a case to be made that they should sit behind somebody for a year, especially, you know, Ty Simpson has only started one year. Whether they do that, you know, do you anticipate them doing that? I actually don't because.

You don't. Well, I don't think Ty Simpson. I think that they would be turned off by. by the idea that he had only started one year. Not just Ty Simpson specifically, but the idea of drafting a quarterback on day two and just taking a dice roll with that spot and letting him sit behind Rogers for a year. You assume they do that, that that is the plan. Well, I think they could because they already in a sense have done that with Will Howard.

And that's the other thing here is like fans have been clamoring for Will Howard. They want Will Howard over Aaron Rogers because I think that they know what they would get with Aaron Rogers. And Will Howard to them is this box of mystery that he could be spectacular. He could be horrendous. And either way, they would be totally down with it. Because if he wins four games and is awful and is Kenny Pickett 2.0, hey, now they're in position to draft some quarterback in 2027.

For the first time, they actually have a top 10 pick. For the first time, they are in a position. Because as you're alluding to, that's the problem with Rogers. And part of the problem with Mike Tomlin was, he was almost a prisoner of his own success or mediocrity, they were never in a position to draft a quarterback because they always somehow rallied these teams that had no business getting to nine or 10 wins,

two nine or 10 wins, which did nothing but push them out of position to draft the quarterback and get out of their purgatory. And that's the problem with the Steelers right now, is just they're in this cycle where there is no quarterback. And they are very much scarred by the Kenny Pickett experience. I can understand that. The problem was, Ben retired.

They had no plan. they had nobody there. They needed a quarterback and they drafted Kenny Pickett because he was there and because they needed a quarterback. And that is why they didn't draft Jackson Dart. That's why they didn't take a swing on other quarterbacks. That's why I think that they're not going to go for Ty Simpson is because they are terrified of getting Kenny Pickett because you need a quarterback, you draft a quarterback.

Now you set the franchise back three, four years trying to develop a guy that there's no developing. This is kind of my like working theory about how I think some of this could. potentially go. The TJWatt part of this is a little bit more complicated because he still has a ton of dead money left on his deal next year. He's obviously a beloved player, but like he's an aging player with a $42 million cap in each of the next two years. But even if you, T.J. Watt aside, this was the 31st, the second oldest team in the league last year. They were 31st and Snapweighted age. After this year, Cam Award is a free agent. All, most of the eight, I assume

they will move on from Jaylon Ramsey this offseason if they save $20 million if they do it, right? We'll see about him. I know that there are some people who really like him. They might try to move them to safety full time, but they could save a lot of money by moving on it. In the next two years, I would assume they move off from Jay and Rams. The point here is that this team will hit an age reset at some point in each of the next two off seasons.

I assume it based on everything that you're saying and then the idea of bringing the Rogers back, it won't be this off season, but it will be next year. And so the way I see this playing out, and you can correct me if you think this is totally off base, this is a team that will be mediocre this year. they will win between seven and ten games, depending on how lucky they get in some areas. And we'll be having this exact same conversation next year. And they will probably do, they will probably hit the reset button next year because it's the easiest option.

But again, it feels like everything they're doing in 2026 is just set up to delay the inevitable reset that will ultimately need to happen in the next two off seasons. Pretty much. Yeah. I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head, unfortunately. And I say this just seeing the last 10 years of Steelers football, which has been the same story over and over again. So I'm honestly at the point with the Steelers where until they prove to me otherwise that they're not going to be that team you just described,

I'm just going to assume that that is going to be the product they put on the field. And now, you mentioned T.J. Watt. The only way that I think that this turns a different direction is last year was the fourth consecutive year they had the fourth or the highest paid defense in the NFL. Now, there's going to be some changes. They're going to be one of the highest paid defenses yet again. And really the key is going to be can Patrick Graham come in and somehow get more out of this defense? Because we have seen some teams like, you know, I think that I think you look at the Denver Broncos.

And people compare Sean Payton in his age and in his second act to a Mike McCarthy in his age. but really it's it's the defensive coordinator it's that side of the ball that mostly carried the team i think that's what you would need from the steelers is uh patrick graham to come in and somehow maximize this defense that did not play up to its salary cap hit or these guys didn't play up up to their paychecks last year and i think that could happen i absolutely i like patrick graham i think the patrick graham could do more with more talent whether that's enough considering some of the limitations on offenses is a different consideration so here's the last thing i have for you. They have $44 million in cap space that currently sits. If they move on from

Jaylon Ramsey, that could be like $65 million. They move on from John News Smith. It could be like 70-ish million. That's a decent chunk of change. And so that I'm curious how that mindset and how the 2026 goals inform what the free agent plan might look like. Because if this is a team that is on like a multi-year timeline and they think we have a young core of our roster, if we play that way we don't need to spend a lot on win now guys or are they in a place where they do still want to win now and those are the types of players they seek out in free agency i think that's the biggest question i have about the next month well well i think that um i could see them going after veteran receivers because and this is my probably my biggest problem with if they bring back

erin rogers i think you could convince yourself reasonably of the available bad options Aaron Rogers is the best of the bad options, right? But yeah, one of the better ones, right? The only other guy that, like, again, I think that this would be to me an intriguing Malik Willis Landings spot if Aaron Rogers was not the quarterback. That's the only other one I would say. Okay. The problem to me becomes then once you start making subsequent decisions based off of that.

And specifically, you look at what happened last year. And it was the wide receiver position. Aaron Rogers likes veteran receivers. He likes guys who are polished route runners who know how to read a defense, who are going to understand what it takes to prepare for a week. And wide receiver behind quarterback is their biggest glaring need. So last year, what that meant was Roman Wilson in his second season was buried on the depth chart and eventually made inactive in lieu of MVS, Marquez Valdes Scantling, and Adam Thielen.

And that's where I think the problem becomes is when bringing in Aaron Rogers becomes a detriment to developing young talent into preparing for that next window. And I think that that would be the biggest mistake that they could make is if they convince themselves that they could go on some magical run with Aaron Rogers. And so they need to go sign some 32, 33 year old wide receiver that makes their quarterback happy, but doesn't do anything for this next window that you're really ultimately trying to win in. I love that framing because that's exactly how I feel about this team right now.

I don't mean for this to be like a shitting on the Steelers situation. The Steelers are in like a really decent spot, in my opinion. The Steelers, like we just said, they have 12 picks, they have three picks in the third round, they have two picks in the fourth round. So we're looking at what? Let's do the math for me. Seven picks in the first four rounds. It's going to be ridiculous.

That's a ton. And it's not as if the roster is barren of young talent now. Right. The offensive line has really nice and young pieces on it. They have multiple, Alex Highsmith's, what, 30 now? but he's approaching that yeah so i think this is age 29 or age this is this age 29 season you still have her big on the roster you still have that young offensive line and so there is like a core of talent here they're going to be adding a ton more to it with the draft picks 2027 and 2028 are the years for the

Steelers and so my biggest question is can you do the right stuff this off season to not rob what 2027 and 2028 should look like can you balance those two things at the same time if they can I think that there is a very real, but there's real hope on the horizon for this team. I just wonder what that balancing act ends up looking like. So the balancing act is a difficult thing. And Omar Khan last off season, there was a narrative when they traded for D.K. Metcalf

and people said, the Steelers are all in. They're all in. And I asked him about that narrative and that notion. And his response was, well, you're looking for sustained success and winning in the future, but also making the most.

And we think we can win the Super Bowl this year. and he straddled the line. And the danger in trying to win in two windows is you don't win in either one of them. You fail to win in either one of them. And that's what I wonder, because, like, you look at their approach around the trade deadline. Rather than going and getting Rashid Shahid, you know, or somebody like that, they did nothing. They signed, they picked up Adam Dillon off the scrap heat and they said, hey, Rogers, text your buddy MVS and see if he wants to still play anymore. or like that's what they did.

So they didn't try to win in that window. They didn't go for it. And I'm not saying they even should have been an all-in team. But then you pivot to this. It's not like they're playing for the future this year. So I feel like you have to be making decisions for one window. And I don't know that they've committed themselves to either one. And that is my biggest fear for this team is they're not going to win in either because they're kind of trying to straddle the fence with both.

Rogers is a worthwhile character to bring up there. But I think Jalen Ramsey is another one. I'm like, this is a team. There's a bunch of safety's available for agency. And this team has a lot of money and they still have a needed safety even with Jalen Ramsey. So, but do you want 32-year-old J-1 Ramsey making $20 million a year? Or would you rather take a dice roll on a younger, potentially cheaper option in free agency? Because you understand having J-1 Ramsey on your roster right now is not in service of what you're

ultimately trying to do as a franchise. Like, it's hard to talk about how they'll use the money in free agency without understanding what the mindset and the plan is for what they want this season to look like. Yeah. I get the sense that there are people who really like Jalen Ramsey. They like his competitive makeup and want to give it one more year and try to move him to safety. But I don't know because part of me wonders if Elmore was playing 40 chess. The Mink of Fitzpatrick trade, I think, was as much about getting rid of Minkka's contract as he was approaching 30.

and at one point he was able to see into the future and get all those interceptions. He stopped seeing into the future as Father Time cut up with him. And when the splash went away, he wasn't the same player. He was not worth the money that they were paying him. And so I think that contract was as, that trade was as much about let's get rid of Minka because he had a lot, many more years. And I do wonder if they're going to just, I mean, John, I think has to be cut. I think that they had two of the top 10 highest paid tight ends.

Pat Fryermuth and Johnnew Smith last year. And Darno Washington was their best tight end. They designed this tight end centric offense. And then both of those guys, I mean, Johnny went from being a pro bowler to he had like 200 something receiving yards last year. He was a non-factor. So, yeah.

And they were, Jalen and Johnny were both part of that same trade. And so I do really wonder what the future holds for both of those players. I wonder what future holds for this team. And just like, again, what the next two months look like. The draft is going to be what it is. I wonder if they try to accumulate some more capital, if they try to move down once or twice because they're aiming for that 20-27 class. That, to me, feels like that may happen,

but they're going to make a ton of picks. They're going to inject more youth into the roster. How they approach whatever limited free agent capital they have this year, that to me becomes the most important question. Because I think they will tell you with what they're seeking out and how they allocate that money, what their expectations for the short-term are. Yeah.

I think it would be wise to spend some money at Corner opposite Joey Porter Jr. You know, he's he's entering the fourth and final year of his rookie contract next year. That's typically when they do extension. So some of that money may be eaten up by simply resigning him. Same with, you know, Keanu Benton, Herbig, both of them could be in line for extensions this offseason. That could be some of the money. But I could see them.

They've had success, like Joe Hayden, for example, and other guys in his mold of signing these experienced. So somebody in their second contract, that kind of thing would be a perfect thing for the Steelers, a cornerback. They also could consider safety, wide receivers, a glaring need. Those are some of the positions I'll probably go for.

At some point in the next two years, it is not going to take much of a nudge to make this one of the youngest, cheapest. And I think in some ways, like highest upside young cores in the league, I just wonder when that nudge is going to happen. And it seems like, based on everything that they have done,

so far this off season is not going to come in 2026. But I do think it can happen. And that's why, again, I think that there is, like, somewhere down the road. I do have some optimism on what the roster can be. I just hope they don't spoil that version of it by trying to get the most out of this one. Yeah, that's exactly the point. And we'll see what they end up doing. Mike, always great to chat with you, sir.

Great to see you. Absolutely. We're going to have a wonderful time in Indianapolis this week. Thank you guys. Everyone for listening. Thank you to Nikki. Thank you to Daniel Popper for joining us today. We're going to have two more episodes of these coming out over the next couple days.

Very much looking forward to that. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.