The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The Chicago Bears are the most interesting team of the 2023 offseason, with special guests Hoge and Jahns

Episode Date: March 3, 2023

The Chicago Bears hold the 2023 offseason in the palm of their paw. We celebrate that fact by bringing on Adam Hoge and Adam Jahns—hosts of The Athletic's Bears podcast, Hoge and Jahns—to discuss with Robert Mays and Nate Tice what the Bears can and should do this offseason on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Hoge on Twitter: @AdamHogeFollow Jahns on Twitter: @adamjahnsSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's show is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, it's a lot of people. It is. It is a athletic football show, Hogan John's crossover episode today. We are doing the 10 most interesting teams of the offseason this week, and I think you could make an argument that the Bears might be in the top spot,

so this was the time to just blow the shit out of this. Joining me today, three wonderful guests, first of all, my good friend. Nate Tyson, Nate, how you doing, buddy? Doing very well. Three Bears fans, or Peoples are Bears associated, but most, most importantly, two badgers. Oh, fuck off. We got the 50th.

Yes. So that is where I am very happy, and that's where I fit in. And I get to claim my three-year fandom of the bears here. I can nosedive on into this conversation with you guys. So very excited for this show, though. Also here today, we got two Adams. Johns, who've curred the Bears for how long, Adam? Since Lovie Smith.

Jesus Christ. Oh, yeah. Yeah, help me. I know those days. Your old man was there. Yeah, exactly. Also here today, esteemed radio personality from CHGO and from the Hogan Johns podcast, which if you are a Bears fan, you do not listen to.

I don't know what you're doing. Adam Hoke, thanks for being here today, by you. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited about this. I know our listeners have been excited about it all week. Got a couple of nice tweets about it. Yeah, I know. It's the offseason is the Super Bowl for the Bears.

Like, that's what you guys got used to the last few years. That maybe felt like that too. Also, a special teams coach, by the way. Don't forget that. Yeah. Steem special teams coach as well. Yeah, as much as I'm here to cover the Bears at the Combine, there's a couple things I try to pull out here and there, too, to help.

Are you here for the kickers today? I actually... The kicker availability at 8 a.m.? Because I saw you at 3 a.m. last night, so I assume you were not here for the kickers. No, I drew the line there. I mean, maybe if this was after the Cody Parkie year and the Bears, like, really needed a kicker, I would have been here, but I was like, yeah, I'm good. So I was going to do a shot.

show at some point this spring where we just looked at what the bears should do with the number one overall pick and talk through all of the potential options that they had. I was going to do that after free agency. Well, all of the scuttle butt from the combine so far is they want to trade that pick way before free agency starts. So we got to knock the cap off this one and just do it now. So that's what we're going to do today. We're going to talk about all of the different options that bears have with the number one pick at quarterback and what the ripple effects of those decisions would be. Nate, we wanted to kind of channel what our combine conversations were onto this show,

independent of whatever Bears discourse there was going to be. The thing is, the most frequent conversation that I've had since I've been here is about the fucking bears. Yeah. So I might as well just package it all together. So one question that has come up consistently as I've stood in various bars around Indianapolis over the last three nights is people asking me, is it crazy for them to think about trading him?

More on like a theoretical big picture level. I'll answer that first. I don't think it's crazy. And it's for this reason, okay? It's, I think it's two or three different layers to it. The financial clock that you would reset by drafting a quarterback puts you on a more realistic timeline based on where the rest of your roster is. The conversation we were just having, as we were looking at the salary cap and looking at the depth chart,

it's hilarious how much this team is at square one. Cairo Santos has the sixth biggest cap hit on the entire team. The two biggest deals on the roster right now are Eddie Jackson and Cody Whitehair, both of whom legitimately might be cap casualties on any other team in the NFL. This is a blank slate. By the time you're ready to compete, Justin Fields is going to be either in the last cheap year of his rookie deal or more likely on the fifth year option.

So if you reset that clock with a Bryce Young, whoever you just decide to draft and you trade Justin Fields for draft capital, you get back on a more realistic timeline. I think that is probably the biggest argument for why you would do it if you're not sold on Justin Fields. I understand that you can pull holes in that. I don't really believe that, but I think that's the argument for it. Johns, is somebody who watches the building every day is there, knows the sentiment around Justin Fields in that organization. Why do you think that is not likely? I think there's a feeling that Justin Fields, with everything he did this year,

and I know a lot of his success was with his legs, but with his toughness, his leadership, being there every day after practice, throwing to Darnal Mooney to Chase Claypool when he arrived, that he's earned, like, that opportunity to play with better players, better receivers, to have some investment around him, starting on the offensive line, finding him better, like maybe a true number one on the trade market. Like, he's earned that opportunity with everything he's done this past season.

You talk to the players, Hogle. I mean, you're there every day. What do they think about him? Like, what is the feeling around him in the locker room, specifically. Yeah, I mean, it's very, very positive. I mean, there's, there's players, there's the obvious ones like Darnell Mooney that you, you hear about the stories of them inside the Walter Payton Center at 10 p.m. sometimes, just still throwing routes. You know, I know that those two train with a lot of the same people kind of follow the same

workout habits and things like that. And it's, they, they love Justin. So I definitely think that, sometimes I think that part's overblown, like, oh, if we move, move on from this player. It's going to rip up the locker room. But this is a case where you certainly have a lot of people scratching their head. Now, the counterpoint to that is like what you just said about the campus. Who cares? Who's in the locker room? That really matters. So, Darnell Mooney, a Colquamette, you know, maybe a couple of the younger offensive linemen. That's all they got on offense, guys. Yeah. But I also think that, well, you have Chiquang Grisker who's drafted last year. If you have Caligran, you have your first draft class.

But I all think it's an outward message to the rest of the league. You know this guy that was the most exciting player in the NFL for stretches last year and you walked him like crawl through broken glass with the supporting cast that he had. Yeah, we're just going to kick him out the door. I think that says something to other people. And when you're trying to build a culture kind of brick by brick over time and you're in year two, pulling the rug out from under that guy who was everything about your franchise last season, I think there's some mixed messaging going on there.

They pulled the rug a lot last year. Robert Quinn, Roquan Smith. I mean, these guys were emotional in the locker room. I get it's not the same as quarterback. It's a good point, though. But those guys were beloved teammates. Yeah. It's a good point.

It was your best defensive player. Those were your two captains. Okay, so let's move beyond the cultural aspects then. Why wouldn't you draft one of these quarterbacks of the number of overall pick, Nate, if you're not worried about what the impact on the locker room in the building is going to have to be? And, well, speaking first, and what Fields did, especially getting comfortable with Luke Getsy's offense, I thought the growth we all saw as a runner, but also, like, you could see some things clicking, even with a terrible situation.

I mean, I'm being, I know I'm a Fields fan, but being frank about the offense line and pass catchers. But also in this class, and I'm just grading as prospects entering the league, Fields is, I think, a clear tier above any of these guys in this class. I do like all four the top guys, Levis Richardson, Stroud, and Young. But I think when they were coming in as prospects, these guys are all kind of middle first round grades, while Justin Fields, to me, was like a true top five guy. And I think that's where you have to be really kind of keep that, perspective. It's like our, well, this guy, it's the family guy joke. It could be a, you know,

a mystery box, you know, that could be anything. It could be a boat. And it's like, that's the exact same thing. These guys could be Justin Fields. And you're also looking at size and traits and you look at other guys like that I think a player that I've come to compare his play style to is Daniel Jones with Justin Fields. People were talking about paying Daniel Jones 40 million dollars. Justin Fields is already showing more, or more potential than Daniel Jones ever has. He's finally kind of come and do his own this last year with good coaching in a good situation. Weird how that works. And also now we want to jettison Fields as soon as he's shown that growth and he has way more room for growth than a lot of quarterbacks in this league. So I think that's what you're betting on.

Also another thing, this is kind of like one little kind of like side stat is that if you take a quarterback at number one, he technically is making more money than Fields is the next two years. Yes, the contract is longer for them, but he's technically making a couple million dollars more. So that argument also kind of like for me is just like much ado about nothing. The thing I get hung up on to with the rookie contract argument, which I totally understand the logic of it. And let's just be honest, Mike Tannenbaum has been one of these guys like really pushing that. We had them on our CSGO show today here at the Combine. And I said to him, I go, the thing I never hear you mentioned,

though, was you're resetting the developmental clock too, though. You're taking. And granted, the bears kind of wasted a year with fields. But you're taking, you took everything that you, that, that, Fields did show you this year, even if it's not everything you want it. It's what gets he did around there to make it work. And you're just like throwing that out the window. And I don't, best case scenario, Bryce Young is everything you want him to be, right?

But he's still a rookie next year. And every rookie quarterback, they take a year. So in my opinion, you're really only gaining one year. Because you still have fields for three more under your control. Granted, that fifth year option will cost you more money. it's not worth it to me to set that because, and that goes back to then, well, what did he show you this year?

And whatever that was, which we all agree he got better this year. Okay, he did that with nothing around him. That's impressive to me. Here's the other argument. If you take a quarterback number one, the number one pick that we're all hoping turns into seven more picks,

it's just the number one pick. So you're dropping Bryce Young onto a team that needs three starters along the offense, line if we're being generous, probably another pass-catching option that could be a true number one receiver, and a defense that has three viable NFL starters. They don't have a defensive line, Robert. Literally, they need a whole new guys and four new backups. And if you're all the, we've spent so much time this week on this show talking about how so many

of the teams in the top 10 are in a rare position to surround a young quarterback with more help than is typically given a young quarterback drafted in the top 10. If the bears were to use the number one pick on a quarterback, that would not be the case. Even if you got something for Justin Fields, I do think you'd get less than you're probably going to get for the number one overall players. Here's the question I got a couple times down here. What if a Joe Brough like prospect was there at number one? What if Trevor Lawrence was there at number one?

That's a fun thing to talk about. But the bears aren't evaluating the draft class that way. Like what if? No, what if Bryce Young is the best player in the best quarterback? So it's a different situation. for. What the bears have to consider is if trading back is their best scenario because they need more than one piece. Like you said, the answer is absolutely yes. Yeah. The answer is 100% yes. It was funny this week, we had a big meeting on Monday, a staff meeting. So I walk in at

I walk in at 8 a.m. and multiple people are like, did you see the Schaefter tweet? The bears are open and shopping the number one pick? I was like, oh, really? Oh, wow. It's shocking that they would be open to shopping the number one pick. So, John, I'm sure you've talked to people this week about this. What are your inklings about what that asking price looks like, I guess dependent on how far they'd have to go down? It has to include a future one. If I'm the Bears, that's where I draw the line.

With one exception, if they can get a good player in return now. How good, though, in which position is? Hypothetically, if you're able to get, like, Brian Burns from the Panthers back. Oh, boy. They're not doing that. They're just not doing that. I'm just giving an example of, I think that I agree with you that they want that future first rounder, but if there is a trade that you pull off early because you want to be like,

hey, we're getting this guy before free agency because we want to know he's on our team and we don't have to go sign someone else at that spot. I think that's the only exception. Well, that's why it's on the table to trade before the new league here, right? You're maybe getting a player of significance with a significant contract coming back. That's why you want to do that before the new league year so you get your finances order. I just don't know what that market is for those players. I heard. I was like, I probably got excited hearing that. Like, Ryan Burns is a bear. I think the Panthers are

justifiably think that they're close. And I think so too. That roster is actually sweet. I think the Panthers are one of those teams that should be looking at the number one pick. So I was going to say, I've done their show, do you guys show a couple of years. It's impressive.

Good for you. I'm sorry. Yeah, I know. I know. A lot of other podcasts. He's probably our, our favorite, like, the guests, our listeners love the most. They love his smile.

I just gush about Justin Fields the whole time. So people are like, this is great. So, yeah. Yeah, just play to the crap. You know, play the hits. But we were trying to kind of build out the plan initially. You know, the season had just ended. They locked in a number one pick now.

And I said there's a couple blue chip guys in this class, and then there's a huge drop-off, I think. And it's like, but if they need players. And they don't just, first they need viable starters, just guys that are league average, replacement-level players. But on top of that, they need dudes, like actual needle movers. And that's where it's, if you stay in that range and you get a first next year, that would be amazing.

But, like, staying in that range where you can get some of these guys, a lot of these guys are going to be moved, a lot of teams are going to move up for these quarterbacks. There's a lot of noise about it. And, like, a lot of these quarterbacks are interesting. They have flaws, but you talk to seven, eight different teams. They all have stacked differently. And so, but that's good for the Bears,

because you just need two teams to, like, one guy. To get desperate? And that's what, and that's what. To get aggressive? That's it. You just need two teams like one guy. Or, say, Houston really likes that guy, and everyone gets a little antsy as well.

Also, you have teams at five and six that can potentially draft a quarterback. So if there are teams at 7, 8, and 9, all of whom need starting quarterbacks in the Raiders, the Falcons, and the Panthers, are they afraid that Detroit at 6 is going to take one of those guys if you just hang around? There are a lot of factors working in the Bears' favor. Little birdies, the price that I heard from outside the top five is your one this year, a two this year, a first in 20204 and a first in 2025. Okay? That sounds like a lot. But let's go back to the last time that a trade like this happened.

The Niners are at 12 in the 2021 draft. They come up to three. That trade includes a future first the following year and the year after that. So there is precedent for that sort of move and it's the number one pick. Yes. You get your pick of the draft. You control the draft if you make this trade. So if I'm Ryan Poles, fuck yeah, that's where I'm starting these conversations.

Oh, yeah. So if it, let's say four is a different asking price. I've thought about this two ways. I don't care how far they go down. I don't care because I don't think there is any single defensive player, be Will Anderson, Jalen Carter, who we can get into, that moves the needle enough for me to value the player over multiple swings based on the state of the roster.

All that matters to me is you come away with a ton of picks and at least a future first round pick next year. Because I 100% agree. They have to see the Justin Fields thing through. They owe it to him and they owe it to everyone. else to see the Justin Fields thing through. You have to give yourself an off-ramp if it doesn't work. I think he's undeniably exciting. I want nothing more than for him to succeed. So in this scenario, it's using that draft capital in 2024, 20-25, where maybe field struggles this season,

but now you have options for 2024, is what you're saying. Yes. Yes. You have the multiple first round picks, your own and another bad teams who just traded up for the first overall pick and a quarterback. Ability to pivot. Yes. And that's it. That's team. building. That's what we found. Team building is about building to pivot and go down different avenues at any time. It's Copycat League. Teams often mimic the actions of teams that win a lot of football games.

Proof of concept. Sure. Yeah. Okay. The team that played in the Super Bowl this season did this exact thing last year. They were not sold on their quarterback. So they traded into next year's first round. They have two first round picks in this year's draft and said, okay, we're going to throw a

shitload of resources at our offense and our team in general. sink or swim with the quarterback. If he doesn't develop a way that we want him to, we will be in a position to go get a quarterback. He developed, hallelujah, you just have the 10th overall pick and you have a guy. So I think the bears have to give themselves that same sort of flexibility moving forward.

And we've talked about the Eagles a lot on our show because, and we tend to do this in the media all the time, okay, here's a team where things are working, how do you do that? But in this case, I really do think it's a relevant conversation. For many different reasons, to me the most important is Ian Cunningham came from the Eagles. Yeah. Okay, he was part of that.

what the Eagles have now. He helped build that. He's the Bears assistant general manager now. So that context is literally in the Bears building. And oh, he could have had the Arizona Cardinals job this year if he wanted it and turned it down. He's still there. Also. Very tall, by the way.

Saw him in the elevator. Shockingly tall. He's not ready for that. He's a tall Ian. He is. And then the other thing, too, is like, Jalen Hertz is a good comp for what Fields is now. Just turn on the tape. I mean, it's a little bit different in the sizes,

but really what they, even the pivot the Eagles made a year ago mid-season is very similar to what the Bears did this year, mid-season with the field. There are a lot of similarities. There's a lot of evidence actually right in front of our eyes that the Bears actually are following what the Eagles have been doing, and it's very relevant to the conversation.

Absolutely is. So the biggest concern that I have, we talked about this a lot. What do you think Justin Fields' sacrate was last season, Nateyce? Was it 10.8? Adam John. 15?

12. 14.7% It is an astronomical number. It is. And we have a lot of data that suggests that how you handle and create pressure as a quarterback is a lot of you. Stylistic how you operate.

That 14.7, 15% number is something I cannot get out of my head as I think about where he has to go. Because if you look at a J-1-Hertz, a Josh Allen, these other guys who have struggled and gotten better, a lot of the underlying metrics about how they play the position have been better. So how do we build a case for a better supporting cast

can allow Justin Fields to overcome that shortcoming and the other ones he has? That to me starts with the trade down. You get this war-trust of picks. Outside of potentially absorbing a player in that deal, I think you want to know how much draft capital you have because a second-round pick doesn't just have to become a second-round pick. A second-round pick can be Mike Evans.

A second-round pick can be a million different things. So, Nate, if you're starting to build the right supporting cast for Justin Fields with the resources, which in this hypothetical, let's say, are an extra second, an extra first next year, an extra first the year after that, plus the 10th overall pick. How are you building around Justin Fields over the next two months? Interior lineman, not even tackles, and I know we emphasize tackles,

but Fields and where he feels the most pressure and how he plays, interior pressure is what messes him up. There's a lot of quarterbacks in general, actually. But I think that's what helps first and foremost, that's what's going to help him. It's an interior line. Center plays got me better. And that's like,

it got such a great point. Taking a load off him mentally. I've seen glimpses of fields handling a little bit more of protections and moving stuff. They're trying to work with them. Really early in the season, I could tell they were like, hey, we're trying to,

it's like, change the point and they kind of went away with it a little bit. But he can handle a little bit but having a center that can take that load. A vet or a young guy. I always like the young guys, young quarterback, young center, kind of building that battery.

together. I've always just been a sucker for that. But interior offensive line, I think is the first and foremost thing. And on top of it, you need a ball winner. The Chase Clayville Trade, we can say whatever it is, but he's a finesse receiver built like he looks like a power forward, but he plays like a guard.

And that's just how he plays. And I think you look at him, you're like, oh, they got that 6-4, 220-pound guy. It's like, he doesn't play like that. All of his highlights with the Steelers, we're catching horizontal routes, catching jets and doing jet sweep stuff. I mean, remember his big game as a rookie when he had like three touchdowns.

It was all jet sweep stuff. So I think they need a ball winner. They need several pass catchers, though. That can also knock down where Mooney's more than a role that works for him, as opposed to eating 140 targets. He's more of a 90 to 100 target kind of guy. I think that's where you obviously need the help. But they need a big receiver, and I think they need interior line.

And there's a couple guys in this draft that makes sense for if they say, you're saying back to nine, I don't want to butcher the guy's name again from Northwestern. Scorazki. Yes, Skoroski. But that guy, to me, is like, oh, that's nice. Because it's another guy, and I brought this up before, is that there's questions that he can stay at tackle, but he's a good player that you can slot in anywhere.

So how else you fill out the team? That's a guy that makes sense to me as far as he can play either guard spot or maybe even right tackle. Okay, now we get our best five out there in some way, shape, or form. They need a lot of help, especially on the offensive line. Johns, where do you start? I think separation, like at receiver. I don't think he trusted his guys.

You mentioned the win those contested catches. I don't think you just trust it. He never took those risks to continuously do that every single week to just trust the guys to be where they're supposed to be or when they're one-on-once. So separation at receiver. And to your point, Robert, I think the bears have actually been pretty forthright in this in saying that Justin's going to learn to take the layups.

He's going to learn to get the ball out quicker. He's got to not hold on the ball so long, you know, and wait for things. Don't have to be a hero. Yes, for that home run shot. They've been pretty fair. They've actually been pretty public about it, too. Ryan Poles the other day. Maddie Buflose too.

Yeah, I agree. I view O-Lines similarly. I'm a build inside-out guy, so I love the idea of fixing, especially at Center, which has been a conversation for a few years now, relentlessly. But I don't know if this is controversial.

I've talked about this before. I don't think the Bears' wide receiver group is as far away as people think it might be. It's not a complete overhaul of the room. I just think they need, to what you just said, John, is they need the one guy, like the one guy that pushes everybody else down. Because if you get that guy, Mooney's not a terrible two. Claypool can exist, you know, and there is like your third option. It's the basketball lineup.

Yes. Yeah, it's building it out. And secretly, Valish Jones did some nice things at the end of the year. He did. And so I'm not saying I'm like very hopeful about that, but if he's your fourth or fifth guy in the wide receiver room, you can still use him in ways where, and we still. saw this. He shares a rookie as he was struggling. When he came to the game,

defenses were like, oh, that guy's on the field. That's the fast guy. So it still can be used to your advantage. So I just think, yes, it's a big piece. You're probably going to spend money on it, whatever it is. And I'm not sure that guy's even available, quite frankly, in free agency. So I don't know, you've got to get creative to find that guy.

But if you can, it pushes everybody down and then don't forget. Cole Komet's still a pretty good past country, too. I was literally just about to talk about the tight end room. I just wrote an article. It's coming out tomorrow on the athletic. Go go check that out. The tight ends, it's a great class of tight ends. And you already have Kemet, who's a fine player too.

So if you get, now you have two tight ends, that gives you more versatility as an offense. And that could be the size that you need as a pass catcher. It doesn't just have to be a receiver now, just past catchers. And I think, so that's an important point too. Even though this receiver class is kind of a, kind of the smurfs. There's a couple of guys with size, but they're not kind of like, you know, Quinn Johnson's interesting, A.T. Perry, I like from Wake Forest.

as a day two guy. But the tight end class is where you can find, even if you're taking tight end four in this class, that usually be a tight end one in every other draft class. And so now you're pairing that with Commet, that's a weapon. That's an advantage that you carry in every week. So I also think on day two especially, especially if they get more picks,

it's like, man, you can really take a swing and get a tight end and maybe another pass catcher in a third round. I think Coltumet played like 97% of the office snaps this year. Give them some help. Yeah, it's given some help. Like something. I'm totally with you on the number one receiver thing. So if we're taking this a step further

when we're comparing it to the Eagles. Going out and getting AJ Brown is more about having a talented player than AJ, like AJ Brown on your roster. If we look at the success stories of quarterbacks over the last five to seven years in the NFL, the young guys who became good. Some of them instantly were relevant. Justin Herbert, guys like that.

But Mahomes, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, J.1 Hertz, Josh Allen, to a certain extent, guys who got better than they were at a certain point. Every single one of those added a true number one receiver at some point along the way. Bill's traded for Stefan Diggs. The Eagles traded for A.J. Brown. The chiefs already had Tyree Kill and Travis Kelsey.

The Dolphins traded for Tyree Kill. Joe Burrow got Jamar Chase. Justin Herbert. Keenan-in-now was already on the roster. This is about more than having, well, even beyond like the breadth of the receiver room, mechanically, when you have that number one guy and you are constructing plays,

you make that guy the number one receiver in the progression. Correct. So when the quarterback is operating, The first thing he's thinking about is I'm throwing it to the really good guy as the number one receiver in the progression. Trust is the biggest factor here. I trust that that guy is going to be open. I can play faster. So if we're trying to construct an argument for why that number can go down,

it's more than about having a talented receiver on your team. Literally the mechanics of the offense change when you trust that guy. So where does that guy come from? There are no real receivers and available in free agency. We know that the draft class doesn't have that top five guy. If there's a Jamar Chase in this draft, I'm not going past five. but there isn't. I think that a guy like DeAndre Hopkins

doesn't make sense for everyone. He makes sense for this team. You can't spend $100 million in free agency. Cap Space is a weapon when you could absorb anything you want to. That's why the Chase Claypool trade was so frustrating to me because it's not, can we get a better receiver than Chase Claypool with the 33rd overall pick. The 33rd overall pick can become DeAndre Hopkins.

It can become a Mari Cooper. It can become whoever that version of it is this year. So I think you have to be creative in how you're going to use that money. DeAndre Hopkins is one name. I'm calling the bucks immediately. They are $30 million over the cap right now. Ryan Jensen just got an extension. He has only $10 million left in dead money if he gets traded.

There's your starting center if you want. That would be a huge. With an attitude. Yeah, that would be such a needle mover. Mike Evans is in that same boat. You're not going to trade all of them. These are the things that I'd be sniffing around on. And that's why I want to know what picks I have.

So I can start kicking the tires on moves like that because that's the weaponry that you have. It is the ability to take on any contract that a team doesn't want. That's why flexibility is valuable. Yeah. It's like the Oswald or to the Browns. Getting that another pick with it because they could absorb the contract. It follows the Eagles example again, though, right? Trading for AJ Brown.

Yes. And we've seen a number of Devante Adams. You just mentioned, who am I thinking of? Tyra Kill. They were all traded. All traded. Well, then also like going, you know, Trevor Lawrence improved a lot this year and even going from shit to average at receiver, above average.

I got to give them the credit. But like, you just see how much situation just being okay around, lets these quarterbacks develop. Jalen Hertz won't be Jalen Hertz right now if he wasn't allowed to operate from a clean pocket all the time and now throw to very talented receivers. Jailen Hertz did improve. They had a great situation to improve. You stoked that confidence in such a real way when you put those guys around him.

Whatever game that was, I want to say it was the one. Washington game where we did the live show afterwards and I think it's your profile picture now and we were talking about it and that was the thing is even when Fields was trying to do the right thing he wasn't able to not from him but from the situation the pocket wasn't clean the receivers run the wrong route receivers not getting open and he's like trying to get better but he's like I can't like he literally couldn't get better in that situation and so even just getting to average replacement level helps out so much and even then He technically put him in position to win the game at the end.

With that crazy run he had, he threw multiple passes and should have been caught in the end zone at the end. How many big runs that he have called back this year it felt like? Remember the one Minnesota? Yeah. Or even the one against the Eagles, which counted, but he stepped out like just barely before it was a touchdown. You know, I think, Robert, everything you just said, it's why I think that polls, everything these GMs say down here in Indie, like there's something behind it. Oh, yeah. I don't, he was prepared.

ready and, in my opinion, eager to talk about making the trade sooner rather than later. I think there's something behind that because then when we had him on later, I was like, well, you're not going to do it this week, right? And he's like, no, basically because the medicals, we don't want to, you know, anything can happen. For all we know, he might have known about the Jalen Carter thing in that moment where he was talking about it. But then he did, but then he said, but it wouldn't be too long after this week if we went down that road.

And I think it's just because, like, so some teams that need a quarterback right now in the draft might want that one pick because they control the draft. Well, I think in Ryan Poles' case, he wants as much draft capital as he can get right now, so he can control all those things you're talking about.

And he's why we're having this conversation right now. He sets the market. I'll compare this to basketball, and I know that's terrible to do it, but I will. Last year, the Rudy Gobert trade to Timberwolves, they set the market, and it screwed up the Kevin Durant trade. Because Rudy Gober is going for that.

What's Kevin Durant going to go for? And it took six months, y'alli y'i-a. It ended up happening. But the same thing. When you set the market, and yeah, sometimes it's a war chest that you're giving up or taking. It's like, but that's actually better because then you kind of get in first. You get into the test the waters before everyone else sets the market, and it really screws up the math for you.

Talk about Jaywin Hertz and the development that he had. This is a number that I absolutely love. Over the first eight weeks of last season, when they were facing man coverage, the Eagles. J.1 Hurts threw the ball to A.J. Brown on 38% of his routes. Go balls, baby. which was the second highest rate in the entire NFL. That's what I mean by stoking confidence. Yep.

When you can start to feel just more comfortable playing the position in your own decision-making, in how you're approaching the position, that's real. That starts to build momentum for who you are as a quarterback, and they need that in whatever form it takes. And this is with guys that we already have anointed, and I mean this in a real way. But a guy, like, watch the Chargers offense this year with Justin Herbert

when Mike Williams and Keenan out are out. Yes. Justin Herbert, I think, is a very confident, we all think very good. Well, I don't speak for you guys, but me and Robert and a lot of us, very good quarterback, like, going to be one of the guys, is one of the guys, really. Even at times you watch him, he's thrown to replacement DeAndre Carter, and he's throwing those on third downs. And it's like, that's Justin Herbert who's already shown, again, proof of concept that he's already at that level. And he's struggling. And he looks like where people are going, ah, he's just average. See, we told you. It's like, yeah, well, everyone's hurt.

You got D'Henra Carter playing 50 snaps for you, taking 10 targets. And I think that's where even when situations where guys are already established, situation matters. Offensive line receivers and play calling matters so much for these guys, much less a guy that's still kind of a project and still has room to develop. All the best quarterbacks had great situations. Yeah. Great help.

Yeah. Right. Peyton Manning. We're in Indianapolis. He had some Hall of Fame wide receivers. Two first round picks, a receiver. It helps. And a first round tight end.

Dallas Clark. You know, that really, and then they took another guy, Gonzalez in the first round. And then the running back. And Drew James, first round. All these guys. And then another running back, die in the first round. So they had that, and he made the offense align better because it's just how he play in their offense and everything. And he, so they could replacement level on those guys Saturdays won.

But like, same. All those receivers were first round picks, not second rounders, not third rounders, first rounders. I was talking to somebody this week with the Bengals, just about their strategy and how they weaponize their rookie quarterback contract. And remember we kind of scoffed at the way they built their defense. Two years ago they came into the season with the most expensive defense in the league. I was like, man, how many real difference makers do they have on that side of the ball? There weren't that many, but they didn't have any weaknesses. Right.

They filled all those spots with starting level players. And as I start to think about the broader Bears offseason plan with all these resources, the offensive free agents, they don't really do much for you. You can find a starting right tackle, which they need. So I think there's an argument for doing that, whether it's Joanne Taylor or Kayla McGuire, whatever. These guys aren't elite, Mike McGlinchie, guys you can live with. But you look at the defensive side of the ball. And you have a Dalvin Tomlinson, a Jordan Poyer, Jimmy Ward, Von Bell, James Bradbury, Marcus Peters. I love the Jimmy Ward with them. And it's just like these guys that if you can

find them for the right price, Peter's being a good example, Peters had a really down year last year. If you can get Marcus Peters for the James Bradbury contract, which you probably can't because he's hitting for agency, it's not late. But that's the place is my way. my mind would be. Maybe you have one splurred on like a Javon Hargrave type player. You can find three or four starters on defense plus what you can do in the draft. So that's how it all starts to come together. I just think you have to be as creative as possible with all these different assets that you have. One or two trades, a couple of signings, you figure out how you can keep trading down. You use that number one pick and all that cap space to truly control what the

offseason is. I think there's going to be at least one trade that in, in with draft capital that involves getting back a veteran player. I think so too. Because I think there should be. I think we're learning and this should be obvious, but we all know this that free agencies is fool's gold in many ways. There's a reason these guys are hitting the open market. So if you get them the year before,

you're more likely that you're getting a player that you want to keep, that you never want to hit the open market. But I think that then goes back to an earlier trade. Like getting the draft capital earlier so you can do that. So it's not just all this one big number one pick moving back situation. You're signaling to everybody else, what you got? You're like, hey, look what we got now. All right, now we can work with this.

There's no hypotheticals. Again, I'm agreeing with you with the early trade. But Glynchie, by the way, is interesting because Chris Morgan being a shannon guy, the offensive line coach. So that's like an easy translation there at right tackle. So it's like, sorry, but that name kind of was like, oh, yeah, that actually kind of makes sense that right tackle for them. I like Hopkins.

He'd be better than Riley Reef in. Larry Borm. I know he wasn't perfect this season, but yes. Talking about replacement level. That's why. I mean, league average, he's at least that. I like Hopkins, DeAndre Hopkins as an option because he's not going to cost you a ton. He's, like, even if he doesn't give you 80 catches, he does what Robert was talking about earlier.

Like he, just his presence on the field. He tilts the field. Yes. It is going to help everyone else, most importantly, Justin Field. So with the limited options that are out there and he, he's, am not costing you. What's that trade going to be? I mean, I'm off from the second.

It does. Yeah. I would do that. Oh, yeah. I would do. I think I would too. Absolutely. Because at a certain point, you're going to, again, you need to use the cap space on guys

worth using the cap space. And also just talking about Hopkins particular is that he's already aged. Like, it's not like his game is the speed that's like, oh, shit, I don't know how this guy's going to enter his 30s. That's how he plays. He's played the same since his early. Look out. But look how he looked last season.

He looked really good. And he had him in the spot. They're moving them around. No, I know. This is one of those, I always, why are guys available? Yeah. Why? John R Hopkins is available because the Cardinals are a fucking tear down.

That's why he's available. Like, it is not hard to figure out. Those are the situations you've got to take advantage of. By the way, they're trying to move some pieces and stuff. We're trying to create connection points. Chris Morgan was in Atlanta when they drafted Caleb McGarry. He was the office of Yon coach. Oh, yeah, that's right.

That's for you guys. We started talking about right tackle options. Oh, man. We've spent so much time this off season thinking, talking about Ryan Poles, Justin Fields. This is very weird. I spend an inordinately little amount of time thinking about the head coach of the Chicago Bears. That's just kind of how it feels to me. So as guys around year one of that regime, Johns, how would you characterize the job that Matt Iberfluse did and the confidence that it instills in you potentially moving forward or lack of confidence? Well, I just want to go back

to the start of our conversation and just in terms of like we were looking at the rosters now on their computers. Like the bears were purposely this bad. Yes. Yes. I'm I don't think Matt Ibrflus wanted to field the worst past rushing defense in the league. There's no way he did. If you just hear him talk strategy, I mean, he lights up when he talks football. When he wants to talk about other things, you know. He's an engaging football, like, conversator. That is very true about Matt Eberfluss.

The Eagles had 70 sacks this year. The Bears had 20. All right. 20. It's one of the worst defensive lines in all football. And the guys who led the team in sacks were like your safeties and Roquan Smith, who wasn't even on team half the year. That's a problem.

them. So, like, and everybody came back. Like, Ann Williams came back. Usually with seasons like this, like there is some significant change, and the Bears had one of the worst defenses, and all their coaches came back. Everybody came back. Like, everybody was in on being this bad, knowing how long this is going to take. And, like, you almost want to acknowledge what Ryan Poles is trying to pull off here with Maddie Bufu's side. I have not covered anything like this. Like, since 2012, like Phil Emory tried to win with Lovey Smith guys. Like, Jay Cutler. like Ryan Pace was stuck with Jay Cuttler for two years because of that massive contract. This with Ryan Poles and Matt Eberflus had his side is completely different, completely different.

The only part of the process so far on the pole side that I'm just like, this is a mistake. It was a Claypool Trade. That's the only thing so far where it's like even in the moment I'm sitting there and just opportunity cost is flashing in my mind. Because I know, again, that second round pick that you just traded, it can be anything. It can be a veteran on this market. a veteran that's better than Chase Claypool. So that's the only thing I come back to where it's like, I want that one back. Other than that, I think a lot of the other things they've done are justifiable.

And I think the process so far is justifiable. Sometimes you wish he wouldn't, Poles wouldn't say everything that he was thinking. So, but like, I understand a lot of the thoughts. I really do. Even with Iberflus, and I've, I've been optimistic about him and Getsy, like just from day one, I kind of was like, okay, this guy's a good coach. And the fact that he was like, I'm not calling plays right away. That's always a good sign.

I'm learning that's a good sign. I love that. But you watch what their defensive game plans, even with shit, especially at the end of the year, watch them play against the Eagles. Yeah. People's, the chief stole part of that game plan because of how good it was. And honestly, that last touchdown that Hertz put the game away on that QB draw play,

it was they had the perfect play. Brisker just got too antsy and hit the wrong hole. And I love Brisker. I think he's really good. But I'm sorry, I'm just saying it's like I'm as far as coaches, like I think they have a pretty good staff that I think, well, just give these guys some talent and juice, and I could see them taking leaps as far as a team. If you go back early in the season when they had Robert Quinn and they were healthy

and, you know, Roquant Smith was fully engaged and trying to get that second contract, they weren't bad for the first four weeks. They weren't. They ranked pretty well. Injuries took over. You traded Robert Quinn. You made that long-term move. But statistically, they were there.

They were one of the better defenses in the league. It was interesting, too, talking to, um, players, people with the Eagles, both on and off the record at the Super Bowl, and they were pretty unanimous. Like, that was a tough game. Like, they, they, you could say what you want about the talent,

but, like, they played a certain brand of football that was tough, that was noticeable. And that was, again, late in the season. It wasn't like earlier when everything was going much better. That was still late in the year. So, yeah, those might not even be players that are back next year, but it's evidence that Matt Iberflus, who we still don't really know a whole lot about as a head coach,

but there is evidence there both on the tape, off the tape that they're going to play a brand and have an identity that, quite frankly, the Bears just never had during the Mad Naguera. They didn't have that identity. As a neutral observer and watching it, it's just they're well coached, and I know it didn't always, the results weren't great,

but the process all made sense. I know we're talking on team building and everything, but even just schematically X's and O's. And I've been on, again, and you're going to show on other shows. I've talked about Getsi was they asked, oh, why do they run the ball so much? And they all that's like,

because they had to. You're actually good at it. Yeah, they were really good at it. But it was like, Lucasie came from the Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Luke Gets came from the Green Bay Packers. I mean, they run the ball a decent amount.

He doesn't have Pittsburgh connection. But that's not what they want to do. No. I mean, I think that it's the same thing. The Eagles didn't want to run the ball 65% of the time in 2021. They did it because it was the best. option. They want to be in seven-step drops and winging it. Like, yeah, I know, but good coaches adapt to their personnel. And that's why I'm optimistic about what they're,

what they've shown and what they can potentially do down the road. Okay. Just guys in the locker room, do people like this coaching staff? Do the players feel energized about the guys in that building? Like, you, you guys are around. I'm just curious what the vibe in the locker is, even on a shitty team. Yeah. Deep into the season about the guys in charge. So I don't want to act like it's like completely roses, but I, I, I, I, John's and I shared this opinion. It was almost weird how loose that locker room still was in the midst of, they're at the end of the season.

They literally ended on a 10-game losing streak. I was amazed that you'd still go in there Wednesday of Week 18. And it's like, you know, there's music and people are happy. There's no drama. Everyone's hanging in the facility still. Like, no one's trying to get out right away. There were a couple exceptions. Angel Blakson was nowhere to be seen on locker room clean out there.

There were some exceptions, but that was noticeable and mattered to me. On the flip side, there was a couple comments here and there. And we actually saw it in the NFLPA survey. There were some complaints about how hard flus was running practices. And they got dinged for it at one point. They had they lost the practice. I was there in camp. Yeah.

And it was just kind of, I mean, we talked about it in camp. It was like, I mean, there was no wasted seconds in practice. It was like, you're going to this trail, we're doing this. You're going to this drill, we're doing this. And, like, you can tell it was palpable. I wonder if you backs off a little, because if you talk to guys that played under Lovie Smith, they will tell you that Lovie almost overdid it in his first year. A lot of coaches do that.

Sean Haten was like that. My dad was like that. Dan Campbell was like that. Like, he started to back off because he started getting better players. Yeah, that helps too, right? It helps. They started winning, too, with year two. A lot of coaches have done that

because you establish a tone, you establish an expectation, and then you start listening to your players a little bit more and what they need. I almost wonder, though, if he has to do it maybe one more year because there's going to be so much turnover. Like we were saying,

they're going to add so many guys. So many guys. I know there were a couple guys, too, that wish there was a little bit more communication about where they stood. I think that goes on polls a little bit, too. We heard that from Kevin Jenkins in camp when he was just kind of floating in the way

am I going to get trade-ins? It's like, can someone just pull this guy into an office and tell them what's going on? That'd be nice. And they eventually did. And they did. But I think that also was with Irofuss. I heard from a couple guys that were just like during the year like, you know, they want to know where they stand sometimes. And that could be dangerous.

You know, you can't do that with everyone on the roster. But there are certain times where you've got to have those conversations. I think that comes with time and confidence. Speaking of that, somebody who is famously transparent with his players, Mike Tomlin will really tell you where you stand in front of the entire team. also someone who was brutal in year one. Like famously brutal in some of those practices, full pads all the time.

That was a veteran team. Yeah. So I think that there can be a trend with some of these guys who have found a lot of success. They're marking their territory a little bit. They're kind of shown who's boss a little bit. I get it. I totally get it.

Especially a tear down like that. You can't ask later to be like, okay, let's turn it up now. It's easier to take away and make it easier than make it harder as time goes on. All right, you guys think about the Bears 27 hours a day, anything else we should be thinking about that we're not right now, Johns.

I just think maybe to further this discussion, like before we end this show, like if you're building around Justin Fields and say he struggles in 2023, that structure, maybe it's Peter Skronsky or better receivers, like, that's there for the next quarterback. Of course. Should you have to, I forget who used the word pivot, should you have to pivot? it. And I feel like Ryan Poles tries to play that long-term game a lot, where he's thinking, he's trying to think two moves ahead with this. Like this is part of it. This is part of what makes

this such a unique opportunity for him because he has this first pick and he can turn it into the long game with 2024 draft capital, 2025 draft capital if he goes back further. The one thing I have is, I know it, any GM would love to be in this position, number one pick, all the caps base in the world. The one thing is, you know, that I do think the bears have to be careful. We kind of touched on this is they literally have to spend money. They have to get to a floor. And so I think that goes back to really how they end up structuring these contracts. They have to be careful. I always think back to, I think it might have been Ryan Pace's first or second free agent class. Like all five of those main

guys that showed up to the press conference. Deion's Sam's Mark. This is Mike Lennon. Marcus, Marcus Wheaton, Mike Lennon. Yep, that was that whole crew. And it was like, In hindsight, it was a terrible group. I think they kind of knew at the time, though. And other than the Glennon contract, if that was the same year, I think it was. Other than that one, it didn't really cost them anything. They were able to get rid of all those guys. It didn't cost them anything.

There was no dead money attached. So they got to be careful. They also had to be creative. Are you ready? Are you ready? Don't be pocket- This is harder than it sounds is what I'm saying. Ryan Poles has to be creative.

Creative. Yes. Well, that's where, I mean, real quick, that's where I just compliment the JAX going from shit to average or above average. It's like, but some of those, there's, like you said, there's opportunity costs sometimes. It's like, oh, but you're, because now you have that, you can't do this. And that's where you don't always, don't want to. You just can't cut off pathways for yourself. That's the most important thing.

And if we're talking about getting to that floor, that's why a veteran, a couple of veteran contracts with 17, 18 million-dollar base salaries of your Johnny Hopkins, $13 million to Ryan Jetson, however you get there. Love it. The Jensen thing is like, oh, oh, oh, my God. I'm seeing. I always put up with the good ones. That is a real good one. Okay, so three years 45 for Mike Lennon. This is 2017.

Three years 45 from Mike Lennon. Three for 18 for Deon-Sims. Three for 16 for Marcus Cooper. Remember Marcus Cooper? Oh, wow. That's a defensive back. Yeah, so two more. Quentin Demps, three for 13 and a half.

Safety? And then Marcus Wheaton, two for 11. Hell yeah. Wow. Okay. How many catches do you think of Marcus Wheaton had his Chicago? He was hurt for like the, almost the entire season. Okay.

Marcus Wheaton. 14. has a three had three receptions on 17 targets three on 17 targets that is a 17.6% catch rate that's like hard to do my favorite thing about Marcus Wheaton we're getting on a tangent here but no I love it he was hurt like all at training camp

this was probably the last year we were allowed to stand like right on the sideline during training hamrags he would just come over and just like hang out with us in the middle of practice and like taught he was like he was like he was on the back like as you walk by us all He was the most friendly player who we're all like, you are just probably not going to matter,

but I like that you're nice. I mean, he made $6 million, Gary Tied. I've been in a good mood, too. That's so funny. Those are stories about Barry Switzer that during practice you just hang out the media the whole time with the Cowboys because he's like, team runs itself. This is easy.

Fonzie would do a little bit of that too. You would come over during warmups all the time and just shoot the shit. I love it. Especially at that stage. Stories. Boxing stories. Adam, Hogan Johns,

this was fun as hell. We should do this again some time. Sincerely appreciate the time. Hopefully, your guys' listeners on your feet aren't too annoyed that we were really weird. They're excited about it. I'm so excited.

I'm so excited. I'm so excited. No, no. I like it. It was a little bit easier on me. I appreciate it. That's what I'm here to do. Thanks for let me be the Ringo star here, guys.

This was great. Love you, buddy. All right. Guys, thank you very much. Thank you for listening. If you have not subscribed to the Hogan Johns podcast, please go check that out. If you are not listening to Hogue's work

on CHGO, please also go listen to that. Tons of fantastic Bears coverage out there. If you haven't subscribed to The Athletic, where you can read Adam Johns' work. I don't know what you're doing. Theathletic.com slash football show is where that is possible. Please rate and review this podcast. If you like

the show, we're in year three now. If you have enjoyed it, go leave us a review on Apple Podcast. Go tell us you like the show. It would mean a lot to me. I would consider it a personal favor if you took the time to do that. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We have a fun show on Monday. Me and Dane are going to recap the Combine. It is

Dane Brugler's season. Oh my God. So I am very excited to chat with Dane. It is going to be essentially on the exact opposite poles of how much you can know about the 2023 draft. Me and Dane talk on Sunday night. So I'm going to be the right host because I can really play stupid and not have to play it up. So that is coming your way on Monday. In the meantime,

please enjoy your weekend. That is our last show from Indianapolis. It has been a very fun week. I am very old and tired, but we will talk to you guys very soon. This was the athletic football show.