The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The Chiefs hunt for a three-peat meets the Eagles march for redemption

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Way back in September, it didn't necessarily feel like we were going to end up here. The Chiefs may have enjoyed their status as the NFL's latest—and perhaps greatest—dynasty, but it was clear the Bills and Ravens would push them in the AFC. The Eagles, meanwhile, began the season 2-2, and saw their coach getting in shouting matches with fans at their own stadium. And yet, here we are, getting ready for Chiefs-Eagles in the Super Bowl for the second time in three seasons. How did these teams make it here? What's at stake for them (beyond the obvious, of course)? Robert Mays sat down with Nate Taylor and Brooks Kubena, The Athletic's Chiefs and Eagles beat writers, respectively, to answer those questions on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Nate Taylor and Brooks KubenaExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays coming to you guys from New Orleans, Louisiana for Super Bowl 59. And today's show is a reminder that the Super Bowl is, in fact, here. We've been doing some version of this show for as long as I've been doing this podcast. One of the wonderful things about working at the Athletic is that we have beat writers that cover almost every team in the league. They're there every single day watching every movement, every up and down of a given season. and I love talking to our beatwriters just about how the teams playing in the Super Bowl arrived at this moment. It's a very different story for the Eagles and the Chiefs.

For the Eagles, this is coming off of a year where everything seemed to fall apart at the end of the 2020s season. And that's where I started my conversation with Brooks Kubina, our Eagles writer, about the 2024 Eagles, was how it ended for the 20203 Eagles and why this group feels a little bit different after the really transformative. of offseason moves that they made. The conversation with Nate Taylor, our Chiefs writer, which has become an annual conversation at this point, is just a little bit different because it's a similar story for how the Chiefs get here. And I remember talking to Nate earlier this season about some of the issues the Chiefs offense was having.

And now it almost feels quaint that we were worried about that stuff. And, you know, that's where I really rooted a lot of that conversation with Nate. How we talk about this Chief's team, because they're just a little bit different than all the other teams in the league. Their flaws matter less in October than some of the other teams competing for championships. And some of the difficulties that creates as we try to figure out what the chiefs actually are in a given year. The answer for the most part is they're probably fine. They're likely to get back to this point. So really enjoyed both of those conversations with Nate and Brooks. Let's get to both of those right now. Joining us now from the Toyota studio here at Radio

Row in New Orleans. It is our estate. deemed chiefs writer here at The Athletic. May Taylor, and how you doing, man? I am, once again, fantastic, happy to be here. I just walked into Radio Row, so you're the most beautiful thing I've seen today. Might as well address it now. Yes. People watching on YouTube.

I had to pay off the wins pool bet that Derek Klasson and I had from the regular season this year. For people unfamiliar, we had to pick five teams each, five good teams and two bad teams. from seven teams each this year. The loser, we agreed to this before the season even started, had to wear, we didn't really put a lot of restrictions on it. It was essentially a child's face paint to a day of radio route. Yes. And this was my wife's idea.

She thought it was a good place to land in terms of a punishment because it is embarrassing. I don't think I knew that. But it's not that bad. I don't think I knew it was her idea. So that's how we were sitting at a bar one night trying to come up with the punishment. It was right before the season started. And she's like, what if you did this? And I was like, all right, that's actually a good idea.

And so I went with like a unicorn princess motif. That was essentially the only directive I gave the face paint artist who came to my hotel to do this. And she really ran with it. Two moments I got scared. One, when she started doing the mustache, I was like, oh, we're going to a place I didn't realize we were going. I thought this was going to be like an above the beard situation. Not the case. Two, when she pulled out the jug of glitter.

I'm not exaggerating. You know those huge like industrial size, like Costco size for like salt and pepper? Of course. The big McCormick's ones. She had one of those filled with glitter. And when she took that out of the suitcase, I was like, this is way more intense than I imagine. Did she just throw it at you? Is it more of a brush spray application?

I wanted to take an Uber here because I didn't want to walk and sweat all this off. Obviously. And so I was so horrified getting in the Uber cover to glitter. I was like apologizing to the person. They were like, this isn't the first time there's been somebody covered in glitter in this Uber. That's the only benefit to this is that in here I look crazy. Outside, people aren't even looking at me. Right.

It's a very normal thing in the city to have somebody walking around like this. It's a Tuesday. So if you guys are listening to this on Spotify, Apple, wherever you listen to the podcast, and you want to see me looking ridiculous, please go check out the YouTube version because it is available for everyone to see. Please go do that. We do this every year, me and you now, seemingly every single year, where we talk about how the chiefs arrived at this moment. Yes. Here's where I want to start this conversation.

I don't remember when we did this, but I remember where I was. It was like a Saturday afternoon. It might have been after the Black Friday game. Oh, yes, yes. It was a Saturday afternoon. Now, yes, I remember this. I was walking around Chicago and I was texting you. And we were talking about where the chiefs were, and we were talking about their tackle issues.

And how much of a problem this might be. And I was like, I don't know, man. It seems like Pat's uncomfortable back there. Like, it seems like it's getting to him a little bit. Is this going to be a huge problem as we get into the most important games of the year? It turns out the answer is absolutely not. And so this is where I want to start. Sure.

As someone who covers a team for which the regular season does not matter. Right. How do you go about trying to identify what is worthwhile from Labor Day weekend through New York? year's day. That's a great question. Hopefully because I'm experienced doing this, Robert, you want to explain where the team is in the season, knowing that everything leads up to January. That's, that's it. How do you parse what matters and what doesn't? Because you have to identify where the problems are. Is it just you always couch, yeah, this seems like a problem now, but they'll probably get it figured out by the time we get to January? Well, when it came to that Black Friday game,

And again, they won. They beat the Raiders. But I think as I texted you, that's the first time where I felt Pat made the lineup change, where he screams to Andy Reed and Matt Nagy. That was the moment. And basically says get Juan Ye Morris off the field in the nicest way possible. Have you ever seen him do something like that? No, that was the first time.

When he did that in real time, I was like, I've never seen him be that demonstrative in real time. I don't know what he's like behind closed doors. But in public, I can't remember him ever doing something like that. the first time I can remember seeing it live and then realizing, you know, while the defense is on the field, I think they kick the field goal after he basically screams to Andy and Matt Nagy. And I see the conversation go from Nagy and Patrick to Patrick and Andy to, okay, who's going to inform Joe Tuny that he's moving to left tackle? And so it's like, all right, Matt Nagy, you do it. It goes to Andy, heck, the offensive line coach. And then obviously they make the change to finish the game.

the first time I think he's ever told Andy Reid get this person off the field right now. So I wrote it that day. Even though they won, I wrote it as this is the only thing that can really disrupt their plans in January as of right now. On the defensive side, you're watching trends, you're understanding like, okay, who's coming back, who's not, that was a big part of the season. It's just like how many people can come back from the injury. Keep it track of like when and who is going to get back in all this stuff. Jalen Watson, same thing. And so you're mindful of that, but you're also trying to figure out too, like, okay, who is Steve Spagnolo's best 11 guys? That's what I ultimately tried to do throughout much of the season is like, okay, Chris Jones is the son.

Everything revolves around him. And now we need to know who the other 10, 12, 14 guys are based on, you know, matchup, rotations, personnel groupings. But for the offense, it's just monitoring Patrick, all the obstacles he's had to go through again. and then realizing all their plans, Robert, every last one of them didn't work out. And to your point, it still doesn't matter. They've once again made the Super Bowl because they just happened to have, I guess, the best left guard who can play left tackle in a pinch. It's ridiculous.

And Joe Tooney? Like, they just happened to have that player, even though they drafted Juan Ye Morse to be a swing tackle. Well, he's not a starter. We've learned that now. Well, okay, next year. this past off season. You draft Kingsu, Sula Mati, in the second round. He's going to be your starter because you're not bringing Donovan Smith back.

Okay, that didn't work. All right, well, at least Wanyi's been in the system for a year. That doesn't work. We're going to sign DJ Humphreys off, you know, essentially the scrap heat because he's coming off of an ACL injury. It's a very talented player when healthy, but he's 30 and he's coming off an ACL. Of course, the first game he plays, he has a hamstring injury. he's now out of the picture

and Joe Toney has played as well as you could have asked a left guard to play left tackle when like your season's on the line and you just also happen to be protecting the greatest quarterback we've ever seen you're just protecting his blindside down after down

and it's not like Andy's going to run the ball a ton like no they're going to throw to win these games you have to hold up so yeah what a fascinating season even though I know much of the comfort country wants to see somebody else play in the Super Bowl. If you look at just the tweaks on offense and defense, and you can correct me if I'm wrong about this, with this team, again, you talk about them in a slightly different way.

With the Eagles, the story is just wider. You go back to the end of last season, what needed to change, and they're kind of these sweeping things that are different about this team, this staff, etc. With the Chiefs, it's more surgical than that. There are smaller things that get changed over the course of an offseason, then over the course of a season. If I was to identify, let's say two things on offense, one thing on defense where I was like, this little tweak has set them up for this moment. On offense, the left tackle thing would probably be number one. It's getting tuning in there. And typically, the idea of moving two guys

and swapping out two guys, I'm always, it makes me itchy. That's not my favorite way to handle those problems. It has worked out for them. The other thing that I feel like has been really important as we've watched this team kind of iterate and tinker over the course of the year is Xavier Worthy's usage specifically. Like watching him become this kind of eye candy piece and the way that they've deployed him, those are the two things I would identify about the offense where it's like we use the season as a laboratory and then we get to the end and these are the findings that we have. Would you say those were the two most important things on offense as they tried to figure

out who they want it to be? Or would you identify something else? No, no. Outside of Mahomes, I completely agree. Because again, the plan was not to have Xavier Worthy do all of this. Yeah. He's a true, like, full receiver now. When they drafted him, at least for the first year, it's like, hey, we're going to take it easy. We'll have Rishie Rice. We'll have, you know, Hollywood Round.

He was supposed to be a space creator for everyone else. You're supposed to run for the love of the game routes. Yes. Yes. You're supposed to catch the occasional deep ball or two. And you're going to be our sideline to sideline guy behind the line of scrimmage on gadget plays, jet sweeps, you know, trickery, ender rounds. You know, kind of like that touchdown he scored against the Ravens on opening night. It's like that's who he's supposed to be. Like that is.

Souped up McCle Hardman. Yes, that is exactly what he's supposed to be. Awesome. And then Rishy Rice gets hurt. Hollywood Brown has a collarbone injury. So he missed everything until basically mid-December. And they're like, oh, wait, we have to teach you the whole offense. You need to be durable, even though you're maybe 170 pounds soaking wet.

Maybe. Hey, you're still going to run jet sweeps And you're going to get hit Like now we have to use you as like a legitimate Receiving threat Next to Travis Kelsey Next to you know DeAndre Hopkins who they brought in mid trade And he's been up for all of it

And he's grown so much The best part of the first matchup against Buffalo was And I've said this before Like the Chiefs did not have to beat Buffalo that day That was Buffalo trying to chase the Chiefs To get the one seat which we all know Super duper important but they use that game to your point, Robert, as an experiment for Xavier Worthy.

Just what can his speed do vertically and horizontally against this defense that we know we might see when the game actually matters in January? Have they admitted to you or said publicly or just outwardly, we don't care about maximizing wins and losses during the regular season? Or is that something that's more subtly kind of hinted at behind the scenes? Let me tell the audience right now. They will never say that, but I know it's true. Like, they have reached a level now where, to your point, they are tinkering, they are experimenting, finding matchups at work and don't work.

Okay, well, I think we should do this because the clock says October and we should try to find this answer before we get to like Thanksgiving or when the weather gets colder. I don't think Andy will ever say anything out of hand. You know, he's so buttoned up and obviously tries to be professional. and that, you know, goes throughout the entire team. But, yeah, they treated the first game against Buffalo like, okay, we're not going to run any route that Travis Kelsey would normally do. And we're just going to use him to see what Ken Xavier Worthy do now so that we can work on whatever is next for the second half of the season.

And you look at his statistical line. That is the moment where they said, okay, he can do all these things against Buffalo on the road in, you know, mid-November, now we're going to, like, put this thing in the overdrive and we're going to let you basically run the whole offense. And his statistics have gotten so much better from that day. Robert, he led the team in receiving yards against the team that traded the pickaway

against them in the AFC championship game. It's particularly cruel. It really is. And it's only because they use the first matchup to say, like, what can he and can he not do? Like, it's amazing. They are, I know, you know, the watered down versions like they're playing chess while everybody's playing checkers. There is some truth to that. Like, they know, okay, we have, at that point in November, we have nine wins.

We're probably going to win the division. We will have a home playoff game. What can we do to maximize where the team needs to go before that? And if we get the one seat, great. It's an awesome bonus. And as we saw, they are fully healthy now. They are obviously motivated. And because they've gone through all these trials and trials and true,

tribulations, they have a more realistic and ideal version of who they were than training camp when you're just trying a number of things of figuring out who you are as a team. You understand how difficult that makes it for somebody in my position, though, to talk about this. Right? Well, I do it every day, and it's really hard. Well, because, but you can look at it from a granular and a level where it's just like, you're looking at it through such a microscope where it's like this little tiny thing matters.

Yes. For me, as I'm trying to talk about it in the broader scope of the, the league. It's just like, well, what am I supposed to do with this? Because if you look at what they are week to week, like, they probably weren't as good of a team as like the reasons or the bills for stretches of the season. And so I think that for a lot of listeners, you would say that and just be like, well, this doesn't really matter. And they'd be like, well, what do you mean? It doesn't really matter. So dismissing what they do for like three months and then just saying like, well, it's only going to be relevant when we get deeper into the season. That feels like a dereliction of

duty on my part when you're sitting in this chair. But I don't know how else to do it at this point because overreacting to it and getting all panicky about some misstep they had in the middle of the year. You just look dumb two months later. But at the same time, in real time, I don't want to be like, well, why would we talk about that? It doesn't matter what happens in the shoes. It's just a no-win situation. I just don't really know what to do anymore. They are still the defending champions.

So you should talk about them. And I understand how complex it is because even when I listen to like you and Derek and I think it was what Nate Tice, right? When you go through what did we learn about all the teams that got to the conference championship? Obviously the Lions are, you know, one of the better teams in the league. It is so funny. Like you guys list off all the statistics that I'm like, it is hilarious because those are, that's real data. You can hold it. And the chiefs are in like, right now if you look at advanced numbers from the last like two years, the chiefs are somewhere between like the eighth and 12 best offense in the league by any metric you want to look at.

And then they get into the playoffs and they dogwalk the bills. Like they just embarrass them. And so again, I'm just like, what am I supposed to do with this? So I think my job and what I've at least tried to, what I hope I've tried to share to people is like, you list a statistic for this game, especially on offense. Those statistics are not relevant. No. There's four games.

Kids, there are only four games that matter for Vic Fangio, in my opinion. It's the moment Hollywood Brown came back where they beat the Texans. Three days later, what they beat the Steelers on Christmas Day. The first round against the Texans, aFC championship game. It's four. That's all that matters.

Oh, and all four of those games include Jotunia left tackle. All four of those games include Isaiah Pacheco and Kareem Hunt. You know, Hollywood Brown is a legitimate threat now. And then, of course, you have Xavier Worthy, who's a totally different player than he was in, like, September, October. So you can give the raw data, you can give the actual statistics. And as I'm hearing it, I'm just like, that's so silly. They are not fully formed, and yet they're eighth in whatever EPA per dropback or red zone.

And you're just like, well, that's good. Yeah, it's fine. But it's not really them as we're watching them right now in the most important games. All right, guys, before we move on, we are going to take a quick break. As you, I think your proximity to this, this. I'm wondering if it makes you appreciate the scale of greatness more or less. No, I appreciate it more. Why?

Like, what do you think you're noticing by being so close to it day to day that makes you appreciate and understand it at a level that maybe the general public can't as their eyes glaze over a little bit? Right. Patrick is so consistent that it's hard to grasp the, you. burden that's upon him. I've tried to describe this season as the burden because they told us

as the confetti's coming down last year, we're going for three. Being wired like that sounds exhausting. It does. And he's so consistent and he doesn't throw teammates under the bus. He sees the big picture while also living in the moment. Hey, I know I need to get better at this, this and this. I want to play our best football

at the end of the season, right? Some other teams might be playing better to your point. He's so consistent about what do I have to do to get? get, you know, Hollywood Brown into the offense. What I have to do to keep Travis, you know, a part of the mix, okay, what our defense is doing now? Like, he's so consistent in a manner that, like, you don't even see out of the best superstar athletes that we have to offer. Like, it's such a rarefied place because he sees the big and the small. He's really normal,

while also having incredible, like, talent. He can still relate to anybody on the team. You know, that's something that you just see in the locker room from time to time. It's just like he's clearly a leader now. He's clearly seen just about everything. He has one of the best coaches of all time to sort of guide him through even when he suffers. I mean, the moment of the season really comes down to them losing against the bills. And then the next week, barely beating the Carolina Panthers. And Andy telling them, winning is the important part.

Did we win? And everybody goes, yeah, I guess we won. It's like, yeah, that's important. Like, that's all we're trying to do. I just want us to keep winning so that we'll be at our best in January. He's just guiding you through this season. Did you learn anything new about him this year? Patrick specific?

He is willing to tell. Patrick is, I want, I love this question. Patrick now has gone from, when's the highlight going to come? When's the backbreaking, soul-sucking, like, how in the world did he do that more? moment going to come to now it's just okay give me the scenario i know exactly what to do i will figure it out it's problem solver now rather than somebody it's amazing he's taking like a scalpel and some tweezers to it rather than sledgehammer you can feel that he knows he knows like one of the things that he said to us last week before we came to new Orleans was okay technically it's a

design run the rPO action out of diamond formation that leads him on the 10 yard run with Travis Kelsey and Noah Gray as lead blockers. It's an amazing play. But it's him understanding that like, well, we ran that in the first quarter in our first drive and I handed the ball off to Kareem Hunt. And I said, oh, if this play is successful, the defensive end might crash down based on me understanding their adjustments midgame based on us scoring off of this formation. And so he knows all year.

Any RPO, probably just going to hand it to you. I'm just going to hand it to you, Robert. You know, because they have, it was the first design run in like five years. Five years, yes. But again, like, I could still give the ball to Kareem Hunt. But the one time, based on my understanding of how you might adjust to Kareem out of this formation, you crash down, I'm keeping the ball. And he beat you with his brain.

And then he just runs over to Mar Hamlin. And you're just like, how is the bill supposed to prepare for that? They couldn't. He's never taken the ball and ran that long all season. It's incredible how you give him any scenario just about, and he knows what he's supposed to do. And it's incredible. And then on the defensive side of the ball,

you just have guys that are like, okay, we know Steve Spragnolla is going to call something that is unconventional, unorthodox, But we trust them. And if we execute, guess who gets the ball? That guy who has just about all the answers with a coach who has just about all the plays available at our disposal. How do you not go into these games with utter confidence that like seeps out of you? But at the same time, they just execute at such a high level that it does make me appreciate just like what you're watching.

That's as good as Buffalo could have done, given the circumstances. And Robert, he blitzed his best covered corner with the season on the lie. So if the kind of iterating and the light bowl moments on offense were worthy and what happened at left tackle, what is the defensive version of that this year for you? Where they found an answer over the course of the year that ultimately was what they needed to get to this point. Yeah, they have somehow lived with Trent McDuffie on the perimeter. Yeah. I thought he had to be in the nickel.

I don't care how good he is. Did they ever kind of explain the reasoning behind why they landed there? No, just they wanted to try Tramari Connor at nickel. Okay. I mean, you can do that. I know who's better. It's Trent McDuffie, but no, we don't have to. Jaylen Watson coming back help.

Charles Menehu coming back help. It's now them using Chris Jenner. to set up everybody else. It's a beautiful thing, Matt. Like, Robert, it's a, it's a masterful job of saying, like, all right, well, Chris Jones is just going to move around, and it's just going to help everybody else. And it's like, oh, like, well, we noticed that when he lined up here, you protected it this way and, like, say, the second quarter.

All right, we'll use that information against you. And he's helped Leo Chanel be at his best this season. I still think Justin Reed is underappreciated in this sense Yeah Because it's just like his film study is based off of what Chris is doing So They have Been a better team at going up against the run

And that's why it'll be fascinating to see how they do against The best running back in the league in Saekwan Berkeley I thought James Cook played incredible in the NFC championship game Then you look at the stats and you're like Oh, he only had 85 rushing yards Even though they ran the ball a ton And it's like well

Well, yeah, I would give the ball to Josh Allen on fourth and one. Well, they stopped him, what, two, three times? Yeah. It's like, all right. And again, Chris Jones doesn't have to be in the same spot each time. He can be in different places. And again, what I learned this year is like they really push the philosophy forward that Chris Jones is the son and everything revolves around him, including Steve Spagnolo,

because he's making a lot of his calls based on figuring out your purpose. protection schemes and then manipulating them with just one of the best offensive players in the league and then everybody else can just fill in their roles based on what the play call is. How fixated do you think they are on the idea of three peting and the fact that they would be the first team to do it? Do you think that matters to them or do you think this is just like a continuous march forward? No, this matters. I think they tried to tamper it in the early part of the season and I just kept laughing at them like almost through their faces. I'm like, come on.

Like, don't give me. Don't give you this Andy Reed, like, you know, it's just one game at a time. Like, no, you guys have said specifically, you want this really, really bad. Like, the three people matters. Patrick knows it separates him from everybody else in the grand scheme of quarterback discussion, right? It's amazing that for Travis Kelsey, Chris Jones, like, now we're talking. I mean, you're way up there at your position. You know, it gives Andy Reid something to, you know, obtain as well.

I think what's fascinating to me, Robert, and I didn't realize this was going to be the case. You know, I still follow a lot of the guys that are no longer on the team. And they are super-duper-pumped for the idea that the Chiefs even get this opportunity. Like Willie Gay and Colin Saunders and Legerious Sneed, like, guys that she said, thanks but no thanks. Like, even they're like, man, like, it would be really cool to be. cool to be a part of this like i'm going to talk to donovan smith later this week and it's just like at one point you thought you were coming back they went with the younger route obviously as i said earlier that failed and you're just like cheering and rooting for them during these games when like

you could have been dj humphreys so they've made it very clear to all of us um however much they've tried to talk around it that like this really matters to them it will be it'll be it'll be a very somber crushing feeling if they lose to the Eagles. And that's okay. Like the Eagles are a fantastically built team. But if they achieve this, I don't know necessarily what's next, but it would be amazing in today's era

when no one's done it for 105 years to call your shot, get your shot, and then actually hit it out the park. Like, that would be astounding because it just meant that you continue to outpace everybody. Like, think about this. Like, they've been in a marathon. No one's played more games. They've been in a marathon and they've still outran

everybody to this point. The last team that could potentially chase them down is the Eagles, the team that they beat to start this whole, you know, dynasty, three-pe discussion. It's an incredible story and I know it means, I know it means the world to them because Travis was crying about the fact that they just became back-to-back champions because he knew that that was like a separate. It's rare. It's rare. And this becomes the rarest air if they do it. Yes. The last thing I'll As for people around the country who aren't Chiefs fans and who are watching this with maybe a little bit of fatigue. Totally understand it. I get it, right?

Yes. I think somebody in our position, I think I sympathize with those people because you want maybe a different story, something that you've never seen before. Who doesn't love Josh Allen? Yeah. And I think that that's, again, it's just a story that we haven't heard before. And this becomes now the third iteration of like a movie franchise and you get a little bit fatigued by that. What do you think people are missing? Like what do you think?

Where can you find appreciation if you're someone that's feeling that sort of fatigue when you're in your position and you can kind of understand what makes this so special? You're missing that there's only five guys who are here in 2019. Five. Shocking. Their draft class continues to be really good, really helpful, and ready for the moment when the moment's necessary, right? We talked about obviously Xavier Worthy,

but there's George Kalloftus and Trit McDuffie and Isaiah Pacheco. They've only played in the Super Bowl, Robert. Who does this? Yeah, they don't know any different at this point. They don't know any different. Like Nico Remigio was someone I wrote about in training camp. Like, dude literally fighting for the last roster spot. He does not make the team, Robert, but he's on the practice squad.

And then they just bring him up at the very, very end of the season, and he has the longest kickoff return of the entire season to open the playoff run for the Chiefs, and then he has the longest punt return against the Buffalo Bills to set up another score. I mean, there's greatness all around this team, and I know we get fascinated on Mahomes and Kelsey and Chris Jones and Andy Reed and Steve Spagnolo, but I mean, Trey Smith's going to be the most sought after a free agent. Guys, just watch him. Just watch 65 in a red and white jersey. And for me, it's like two needs. what he's done over the last month.

Stupid. I think I'm always interested when we have these dynasties and we have these teams that become fixtures how the story changes from season to season and who the characters become. And the Chiefs this year, like this is going to be five, ten years from now

if they pull this off. This will be the, remember that stretch where Joe Tooney played left tackle in the final six weeks of the year and we could three peated? That's where we are with this team. I think there are some people I can understand looking at that and kind of rolling your eyes.

It's like, that's really what we care about is like these tiny little wrinkles on the story. But I think the tiny little wrinkles are where you find what's new and exciting and kind of beautiful about what they've accomplished. And I think that's kind of where we are with this team. Whether you can appreciate that or not, I think is ultimately going to determine how you feel about where this team is right now. Kareem Hunt was on his couch. He was on his couch. They signed him off his couch in mid-September. He let them in rushing yards.

Robert. Kareem Hunt at 30. No training camp, no preseason. Just, hey, man, can you come down for a workout? We need a running back. Based on all the other history of how he obviously, you know, was banished in towards the end of 2018. So they just, there are stories everywhere.

It's obviously one of the beautiful parts of the job. Just, you know, despite the fatigue and I understand it and I sympathize with people, there is true greatness around this. because the question I've told people over the last two weeks is, all right, it's third and six. Good luck. Like, good luck. Like, Steve McNeill is going to do something. Same thing on the other side of the ball.

Of course. Yes. It's third and six. Fifteen has the ball. Good luck. Good luck. And that's kind of where you sit with this team and that's really all that matters. And it's just, yeah.

I mean, that's the simplest way I can explain it, like, the greatness of like, you might be at a, you might be an advantageous spot. You might be in a disadvantageous spot. Good luck. No one's found the answers yet. And that's coaching and that's players executing at a high level. And you should respect it regardless of all the other hoopla around them because we get tired of, again, seeing the same thing over and over. And we may see something very different come Sunday if they managed to pull this off.

So it's going to be fun. Nate Taylor, always appreciate the time, sir. Always get to chat with you. And I'm sure we'll see you again next year. Love you too. Can't wait to be back. And next year, tell your wife that you did. You did her a great service because I got to tell you, this has been a true joy of my day.

I cannot wait to go to the bathroom and take this off right now. All right, guys, before we get to our conversation with Brooks Kubina, our Eagles writer here at the Athletic, we're going to take a quick break. Joining us today, it is our Eagles writer here at the Athletic. Brooks, how are you feeling? I'm great, man. Glad to be in New Orleans. Your first Super Bowl. First Super Bowl.

What are your initial impressions? Well, it's the first day. So getting in here, being around Radio Row, it's insane. And this is the quietest it's going to be by like tenfold. It's crazy. I mean, I covered a national championship in New Orleans whenever LSU was there, but that was a one-day thing and I was in Baton Rouge the whole time. So this is nuts.

We do this every year. It's become one of my favorite shows that we do. And we're so lucky at the athletic to have somebody that covers almost every single one of these teams day to day. You guys know these teams in a way. we never, ever could because of the proximity that you have to them. So we've done this every year, I think since we've started doing the podcast, it's essentially the Nate Taylor show at this point. Nate is on it every single year.

The Eagles is their second time in the last few years, but your first year covering the team when they've been to the Super Bowl. I'm going to ask you a very broad question that I think can be a worthwhile entry point into this discussion. If you're looking back of the 2024 Eagles season and you are telling a story to a friend of yours is not a huge football fan, or your mom or somebody that you have to give them kind of a broad way of getting entry into the story of this season.

What would be the first story you would tell that person about this Eagles year? Well, you can't tell the story without the collapse of last year. I would start right from there. This team had super bowl expectations last year, and Jalen Hertz was an MVP candidate. Everything was going right, and then all of a sudden, boom, the bottom drops out. They go one and six. and Philadelphia fans were the most reasonable people of all time. Call them for Nick Siriani's head, call him for everything, and wanted massive change.

And to the point where this coach who had the highest win percentage of all Eagles coaches of all time, they're sitting there thinking about what changes they're going to make. So that's where it begins. And all the off-season moves that they made, whether it was the hires that they made on the assistant coaching staff, whether it was the drafts that they hit on, the free agency signings they made, all of those set the table for what's ultimately transpired. out this year. When we usually do this show, oftentimes it starts at like a pivot point during the season. And there are some for this team that I think are worth mentioning. We'll get to what they

looked like four weeks into the year, et cetera. But I think you have to kind of start with the offseason for this team because it's one of the most transformative off seasons I can remember for a single organization. I mean, a lot of the component parts are the same, but you swap out two coordinators. You have a free agent class that completely transforms huge parts of the roster. You have a rookie class that goes a long way in transforming parts of this roster. So I think you have to start with the entire offseason for what it was for the Eagles. As you think back to that collection of moves, is the Sequin Barclay, like, far in a way, the one that you think is the most important when you're thinking about kind of the tapestry of what happened this spring? Easily. I was talking to Howie Roseman,

the general manager of the Eagles on Saturday. I asked him, that was the single most influential decision acquisition of his career. He wouldn't say that. I think he didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. But far in a way, what they've done offensively, everything runs through Sequin Barclay. They leveraged their offensive line, which has so many pro bowlers. They have left tackle, Joy Mildon and Lane Johnson on the right who's been just stellar throughout his career, and put him into that situation. And the way that they adapted throughout the year, there were two and two through the first four weeks.

Things weren't going well. Jalen Hertz was turned the ball over. And they all together, and really all offensive alignment, we're kind of leading the conversation in some ways saying, we've got Sequin Barclay. We need to run the ball. We need to give the ball to him. Anything else we can figure out along the way. So this offense, they've been running the ball more per game than any Eagles team has since 1978. And they're only at that because in week 18, the meaningless game where their third string quarterback starts chucking the ball.

Else would be the most since 1951. This team, Lane Johnson laughed when I put it to him that way. He's like, yeah, it's kind of like the wishbone in high school. but they don't get this far without Seguan Barkley and it goes beyond what he's done on the field it's also how he's influenced the team behind the scenes this is an organization that really values mentorship and there's more to talk about and how Fletcher Cox

and Chase and Kelsey retired and how they moved on from that but Sequin Barclay behind the scenes with lots of rookies that have stepped up in big ways this year he's been there for them and even the ones that don't make the field Trevor Keegan a late round pick for them I was talking to him about this because he was a relative star for the Michigan Offensive Line national championship team. He was telling me he was depressed before a game.

He was like, I just haven't been on the field. I've been a healthy scratch all year. I'm behind, when am I ever going to get to play behind these guys in the future or whatever? He gets a tap on his shoulder before a game and at Seekoine Barclay saying, your time's coming. He's like, I really needed that. Yeah.

So I know that there are people in the Giants organization and players there who miss that from Seekwan Barclay. And I was thinking about it too, about the influence you could have had. whether he would have the same kind of season with a team like the Texans that were also in the running to sign him, maybe he wouldn't have had the success on the field, but there are players, young players, and other organizations that would have really benefited from that. And that's what Howard Roseman said, too. He said, the player is as good as the person, and I'm not diminishing the player at all. That's really interesting, because I think when I consider the Sequin Barkley signing, there are a few different elements to it that I find particularly interesting. The first is just the vision for how to get more out of a version of your offense or more out of an element of your offense, you're already

getting a lot out of. That to me is when they originally signed him and they decided to spend those sorts of resources on a running back and I looked at the way the team was built, it's like, well, their running game is already really good. Like, what, are you really going to get the return on investment here by investing this much in a running back when the infrastructure of your running game is already so good. And I think the way that Howie was seeing it is, this is a way to get the rest of the meat on the bone for our offense. Because even if the ecosystem that we've set up here is good. The running back production in and of itself last year left a lot to be

desired. If we can close that gap a little bit, what could it look like? And in a vacuum, I guess I kind of understand that, but I didn't have the vision to really project what it would look like in practice. And then you see what it looks like in practice and you're just like, oh yeah, that makes sense. That's a very smart way to

think about just the next iteration of what this offense should be. And I think it required a little bit of imagination for people that maybe didn't necessarily see how it could all come together in the moment. And it does go beyond the metrics in a bit because like I try and look at, okay, what's his EPA value versus other running backs and what's the influence on this? And I mean, they've been relatively efficient offense last couple of years, to your point.

Top three rushing offense by efficiency like every single year. And one of the ways that Nick Siriani evaluates his offense historically has been explosive plays. How many passes of plus 15 yards? How many runs of 10 plus yards? It's the fewest, really, of his tenure this year. But whenever you have Barclay run off in the times that he does, whether it's against the Rams and two long touchdown runs and to start the game against the commanders with a long touchdown run, it's how it makes sense with the rest of the way they try and play football.

They have a top-ranked defense that they've asked Jalen Hertz to not chuck the ball downfield and force things and take sacks. His sack percentage is the highest of his career. And a lot of Eagles fans aren't really pleased to see a guy go down whenever he has the most time to throw in the league because the offense aligned. But they know that when they punt the ball, Chase Sar they get the ball back. And whenever they get the ball back, they give it to Barclay. And Chancellery can have a long drive or an explosive run. You've got control of a football game.

And that's a big thing when you think about they're playing as the Chiefs team that you want as much distance and as little margin of error as possible. You can have one of the most efficient, successful running games in the league. when you're running game now becomes a weapon that you can rip off 50 or 60 yard touchdowns any single time the guy touches the ball, it completely changes the dynamic of what your offense is. And I think that we've seen that this year. The Sequin thing is obvious, right? Like that's going to be the headline move for all of this. But if you look back at the rest of the free agent class specifically, I think there are two

kind of buckets of moves that I would point out. One is, we learned our lesson. That's how I would say the CJ Gardner-Johnson contract is. This is a we learned our lesson for skimping in the spine of the defense. We're going to pay a little bit here, and we're going to shore this up. And then the other side of it is this team does a very good job of taking a lot of dice rolls, where it's like we're going to spend these kind of smaller one-year bets and see if they work out. And I think the two that you could point out this year is what happened with Mackay Beckton at right guard,

which again is a bet on your infrastructure. It's a bet on Jeff Stowland. It's a bet on your ability to kind of develop pieces in that area. And then the other one, obviously, the fact that Zach Vaughan was a defensive player of the year candidate, and they sign him for $1.6 million. It's coming from a bunch of different angles, the impact of this free agent class. And I think in totality, when you kind of take it all in,

it helps explain why the Eagles have gotten to this place. It's an organization that does a really good job at giving themselves options. And that somebody out of this mix, whether he's getting $26 million guaranteed, or if he's a first round pick or if he's a lottery type signing like Zach Bond, somebody out of that mix is going to come out of it. I think it's interesting you talk about C.J. Garner Johnson coming back, but part of the reason, too, that they didn't spend so much on the secondaries.

You know, you come out of getting Jalen Hertz a big-time contract and got to make some sacrifices. And part of the thing that comes together with this year, you had a heck of an offense in terms of, offseason in terms of how their first round pick hit, their second round pick hit, the lottery type guys like Zach Bond hit, and, you know, Sacramento and Barclay is signing this super major, and you would think that you'd have a high chance of that. That also goes together. I mean, this is a team, and Howard Roseman was talking about this on Saturday, how he used, it's interesting an insight to his world.

Back before things were digitized, he said he used to have the top four teams up basically physically in his office. And he would say, like, all right, how do we match up there? How do we match up there? How do we match up there? Now it's just in his head. It was kind of funny. He put his head in his like, now the chiefs are in my head. You know, and he got to, he has to think about the team in multiple layers down the line, down the years. Right now, Fletcher Cox and Jason Kels's contracts are still on. the books. So to have rookies like Jordan Davis and Nolan Smith who are under rookie control, that helps you have the adaptability to give major contracts to Saquan Park to C.J. Garner Johnson at this time, this offseason, they're not going to really have as much flexibility. So it works

out that some of these rookies are coming through. So all those signings together, if all those things don't hit, or if like a couple, like if Cooper DeGine or Quigion and Mitchell both play like average rookies are worse, they may not be in the Super Bowl right now. Everything kind of came together, and we can go on and on about Zach Bond. I think Zach Bond's kind of tired of me talking about New Orleans to him. But it's a major influence on this defense, and it really incorporates all those elements. What stuck out to me just about this Eagles season and this Eagles offseason compared to the last couple, and even when you think about some of the moves that didn't work this off season,

like for other teams, we would talk more about the Bryce Huff thing. We would talk more about how the Bryce Huff thing didn't work out. But when I look at what the Eagles have been able to do, The word that I would use to describe kind of their team building plan and process over the last couple years is it's resilient. They can withstand some of these misses, and I think it's for a few different reasons. If you have a Nolan Smith waiting in the wings because you've accumulated draft capital over the last few years, missing out on a Bryce Huff hurts a little bit less. If you are able to hit on a Quinnion Mitchell, giving James Bradbury a contract, you shouldn't have given to James Bradbury hurts a little bit less.

So I think they've been able to offset some of the free agent mistakes, quote unquote, with draft hits like you said. It helps balance it out. The other part of this, and it's worth mentioning, this team is allowed to spend money in ways that other teams are not. Like if you look at the Jalen Hertz contract, the fact that Jalen Hertz has a million dollar base salary every single year until he comes off the books. Like they've already pre-restructured all of this stuff that allows them to be in the top three, four, five teams in cash spending pretty much every single year. and that makes any individual swing and miss in free agency matter a little bit less than it would for some teams that aren't quite as aggressive in the way that they build things. Yeah, that's an excellent point with owner Jeffrey Lur and how he's given them cash to spend because there are a lot of ownerships and organizations that would be like, okay, so I cleared my check for, say, Bryce Huff or someone that's not even playing. So I'm out $26 million for this right now.

Like, it is, it is, Jeffrey Lurie through that from the very beginning, you know, that's kind of how they've looked and ran this operation and to give themselves options so that it's, you know, I don't know if Gamble's the right word, but you're spending this much on this guy and you're willing to put that money out there. And if that guy works, great. You've accounted for that. But you've also got these other draft picks and other things that might also work as well. So yes, Bryce Huff in this situation.

And it's funny talking to Howard Rosenen about him. on Saturday. He's like, I still haven't given up on the guy. You know, it's not over. He's a three-year kind. He's like, I'm stubborn. I realize that. And he said he was talking to one of the assistant coaches. He was like, look, all the three rushes that he had in the NBA title game. He all went home. He didn't get a sack or anything in that game. But he still feels that the process works. But one of the main points to, I think, what you're saying is what happened with the linebacker position. So Zach Bond comes in. They signed Devin White. They drafted into Kobe

Dean. They have all this pocket together. then the one that people probably least expected to be the best out of that. They paid Devin White twice as much as they paid Zach Bond. It's crazy. And Bond had never played inside linebacker, and Howie Roseman didn't even think he would play inside linebacker. Initially brought him to Vic Fangio as an edge rusher. So what do you think? He was like, I think he could be an outside linebacker.

And Bonn has told the story a lot, and he gets tired, I think of me asking some, like, okay, about your journey and all this. But in OTAs, he was playing inside linebacker, and he's going to Vic Fangio. So when do I get to rush? This is all cool, but when do I get to go on the outside, do my thing? Just trust it, man. You're going to be okay. Gets into the season.

And gosh, I remember Sal Paolo opening against the Packers, and the Packers gashed them on the ground. And I remember going to Bonn afterward and said, what happens? Cut blocks. Looked at the game. Yeah, he's getting cut. I was like, have you never played against the cut block before? No.

Is something as granular as, like, something is... Did you have a pick in that game? He, I can't remember. He might have... I think there was a play I remember from that game where he was... like a middle dropper in some sort of zone defense, and he got like really good depth under something.

And even watching him move in that game, I was just like, there's something different at play here. And I think that you could see that with the defense overall. And to me, one of the most impressive things that Howie has done, and again, it's the resiliency and kind of the proactive nature

that you see with this organization. They went from being the third oldest defense in the league last season. Per snap adjusted age, which Barnwall does a good job of putting out those numbers. And it's just essentially way to, not necessarily what your roster age is, but who's playing? And so snap adjusted age on defense, the Eagles were the third oldest defense in the NFL last year.

This year, they were the fifth youngest defense in the NFL by that metric. So in a single offseason, you go from one of the oldest teams in the league to one of the youngest teams in the league, and you become arguably the best defense in the NFL. That's a pretty good single offseason to have. It is. And Jalen Carter, on the inside, I was talking to him about this a couple of weeks ago, and it was funny.

Listen, he's like, he's talking, about Gabe Hall, one of the interior guys. He's more of a rotational guy. He's like, yeah, he's our rookie. I'm like, Jaylin, you were a rookie last year. Yeah, he's 23 years old. And he's growing into himself. So part of what I was talking about, the mentorship value,

like going into this year, Jalen Carter gets to play behind Fletcher Cox last year, steps in early in the season and speaks up for the first time. And players respond to that, and I was asking a bunch of people, like, so do you see that Jalen Carter calls people out now? He has a relationship early on in his career as a 23-year-old guy going in and stepping up in a way that a veteran should. And all of these guys, you know, Cooper Dejean, Mitchell, they're around guys like Darius Lay on the outside. He was 34 years old, but that helps him. But all of those coming through and them learning to express themselves and have performance on the field,

all that needed to happen for this team to get to where they are. The other moves that were not player-related, but we're also true. transformative for what the season is, is what they did with the two coordinator spots. Obviously, last year, you know, I understand the moves individually last season, or two years ago, where you want continuity on offense. So you bring in Brian Johnson, you elevate him as Stane Shack and moves on, Shane Steck and moves on. And then you go outside for the defensive coordinator higher because you didn't feel like you had anybody in the building.

Sean decided on a good job. It comes from a similar world in terms of ideas as the one Jonathan Gannon comes from. Neither of them works out. So they hit the reset button this offseason. and both of them do work out in a big way. If you're trying to pinpoint one thing on each side of the ball that Vic Fangio and Kellan Moore have done that you think has been the most important shift or transition

that has led the Eagles to this point, what would you say? Offensively, it's realizing that you have Sequin Barclay and adjusting to it. Callen Moore is, I mean, I remember with the offseason, we talked about what influence he might have on this. And Kellan Moore, this is not what Kellan Moore has done historically. Like him recognizing, all right, I have my own. tendencies and things that I like. But I did a story earlier in the season talking to pretty much every Dallas Cowboys assistant he worked with or played four. And one of the things he does

really well is going to players and saying, hey, what do you want to run? What excites you? What do you want to play? That's how he motivates players and how he gets involved in the offense and recognizing and listening to guys like Lane Johnson and Landon Dickerson when they say, look, we need to run the ball and go into it and dig into it and that's what they've done. So him adapting and recognizing what he has on the field, that was offensively. Defensively, Vic Fangio runs the offense, I mean, the runs the defense that they like. And it's not just schematics and running too high or single high and choosing these things. It's recognizing when and why and to what extent.

And you could point to, well, you know, they decided to put Quinnion Mitchell in man coverage press in this situation. But it's how it all marries together. They're all in communication and there's no breaks really. They mix a lot of zone and man, and it's different based on whoever they face. And they've got players that are rookies and stepping into a place that makes sense. I think one of the interesting things that I learned was that Nikovi Dean, who wore the green dot and the inside of the Mike linebacker, his, he wasn't really the voice that was coming through.

I was asking him what Vig Janjo kind of sounds like when he talks to you. I don't hear from Vic. I hear from the linebacker coach. Oh, interesting. And I was like, why do they do that? I don't know. Vanjo doesn't tell them a lot why he, he does certain things. And he has his own metric system,

analytic system that he hasn't told anybody, not even the coaches who have worked for him. And it's, you know, I think, and I asked Vic why he doesn't, you know, talk and call the plays. He didn't tell me. He's like, I guess an old dog doesn't learn new tricks. But I think he, if you ever see, like, his setup up there, he's got a ton of things up there. He's got his, you know, his notes and his other, he's got his, you know, his binoculars, everything he likes to be up in the booth. I think if he was a head coach again, I would ask him, do you think you could be a head coach from the booth? Because he really is, the field general, seeing everything, and he wants to be able to note, I think, I'm just, I don't know this, but if he, if he, if he was calling place, he wouldn't be able to diagnose things and then give it to the guy and he kicks things to them.

So him just having everything organized and knowing what to do, that's what they were missing defensively last year. So let's, I want to go back to the in-season kind of considerations here. when they got to the buy, what were you thinking about this team? Because their bios are open. Their bios in week four. You just get your doors blown off by the bucks, a team that you've had trouble with over the last few years.

And to me, outsiders' perspective, it's like, us is more of the same. Like the same issues that sort of plagued this team at the end of last year and that kind of didn't allow them to make good on the talent on this roster.

They're creeping up again. So where were you with this team a month into the season as a lot of the same issues seem to be coming back. There's a sentence that just popped into my head that I wrote. I was like, they replaced Sean Desai with the origination of the scheme that they had. And now it's not faring any,

faring any better. And those are words that would not ring true at all right now. The defense was not playing well. And to go back to the story earlier, it's sometimes the thing as small is Zach Bond learning how to handle a cut block. Now, against the Saints, whenever he played here, they did really well against the run. Why was that?

He was defending himself against a cut block. They retooled things that they were doing wrong in the defense, got that together. And I do think that I was holding out a bit offensively to see the full picture because A.J. Brown was injured throughout that time. Devante Smith didn't have as good a tenure in that. They missed Lane Johnson against the bucks. Jalen Hertz was still figuring things out with Sequin Barclay. I was like, it was not functioning and it looked dysfunctional.

And that was troubling based on what was supposed to be fixed. And also, Nick Seriani comes in. and says that he was calm place. You know, like, wait a minute. You said your hands were off the steering wheel. And I asked him about that. I remember him saying it's like, oh, yeah, it's like whenever, you know, I may be driving my wife, may be in the passenger seat,

and she may say, I may know to turn right. And she's like, you know, remember to turn right. That's who I am. And I wrote a line. I was like, well, we know that Nick Seriaiaiaia is patient than most husbands. You know, like how much, Kellynne Moore can work in a collaborative situation. And I think that's interesting as you look at how he might pursue other head coaching opportunities and what he'd be working with.

they really did come together and figure out how to fix it. And Siriani was involved, not as much as he was before. But at that time, I was wondering whether it would work or if it would all crumble again. So what do you think have been the most important things that they figured out? I mean, the Seque one element on offense. That's number one. On defense, I think that timeline aligns with when Cooper DeGine got and started line up as well.

Yeah. So you think those are probably the two most important kind of key turn moments of the season? Yeah, it was. So Cooper DeCine coming in, I mean, he had a couple off-season injuries that deterred. him coming into training camp, Mr. Levin' training camp practices. And at that time, Avanti Maddox, who they had cut,

and he had a large contract at the time, and then they bring him back, he's the one that's in there, and it was just a bad matchup. And Dijin comes in, and not only is he great in the run fit, but he's also breaking down, passes left and right,

and taken down Derek Henry later on his own and planting him into the ground. That guy was phenomenal all the years. So his influence, yes. And Howie Roseman, he said that on Saturday, two when I was talking, he's like, Cooper's Jean's influence, I don't think has talked enough. So, yeah, I think those two things would be accurate to say. I want to ask you about Nick Siriani, because I think from the outside, the outside

perception of him at times, the skeptical view of him is that he's kind of along for the ride in a way that very few head coaches in the NFL are. You have one of the most, arguably the most talented roster in football. You have a GM who has a bunch of other titles that maybe is a little bit more involved than some of the higher level decision-making than other executives might be in the league. So what role does Nick Siriani have in this team's success, I think is a question that hovers over the Eagles

in a way it might not over another head coach. What would you say the answer to that is? What is Nick Siriani's main role in the Eagles arriving at this moment? It's a managerial role. It's checking in on, number one, hiring your staff, and then making sure you're getting game plans out of it that are successful. And then it's connecting with,

players and making sure that they're getting the most out of it and are arriving in are accountable. So it is a CEO-type role. And a lot of fans don't like CEO-type coaches because they feel like they need to be schematic geniuses. And sometimes that doesn't work. And it happened with the Eagles in terms of Chip Kelly. And in some ways, that may be delineated into more simplified offense later on. But, I mean, back to Siriani, that's his role. And, and, you know, And that's why it's so much is made whenever you see frustrations come out, whether that's A.J. Brown or J.L. Hertz or whatever. So seeing Siriani's role within that, that's the ultimate thing.

I would say it may not work for other organizations. I think other organizations and how they're set up, it might fit better to have somebody that takes a different style and different strengths. but one of the things Harry Roseman has said a couple of times is how he works with Nick Siriani. They both can converse and connect on the things that they value in a football team

and they work well together and they don't want to keep that going. And also that they have a view of football and how it should be played and that influences how staff hires happen as well. So there's collaboration that works through that and that works for the Eagles that work for another team

if Syriani was working with another GM that maybe didn't feel those same. if they weren't on the same page, but you could say that about many other coaches. So that's his role with the Eagles in the way that I see it. But I do think his involvement in the game management is a little bit, maybe more than he gives credit to himself throughout this too, because during the week four, week five by week, it was him and Jalen Hertz on the phone.

Jalen Hurts was calling him the whole time. And I mean, Kellen Moore's in there talking to them both and coming up with ideas and looking at film for God knows how long. too, but that's Siri on his role to make sure that that's working. So it is managerial, and he's done a good job of that this year. The other kind of point of tension that I think we can wrap up here, but I think is work pointing out just how the season is gone. What did you make of kind of that mid-season kerfuffle with AJ Brown and J.1 Hurts and everything that was happening there? Was it something that you reacted to strongly in the moment? Or did you think this is a bunch

of nothing? Why are we, why do we care about this? So if I see one more copy of that book, I'm going to just, you know, here's how I'll say this. A.J. Brown is probably, arguably, the best wide receiver in the NFL. And the debate about whether that's true is probably what would anger him most. Because in this offense, you're not going to see him with Justin Jefferson numbers. You know, with Jalen Hertz, who is an excellent quarterback, has different skill sets. And that's where A.G. Brown fits. So whenever you're asking them to run the ball more than they ever have,

and night since 1978, he's not going to be out in the field. So every pass has more weight on it. So whenever it isn't successful, A.J. Brown himself, he's going to be frustrated with that. And he, that manifests in a physical sense. You see that. And I remember last year during the 23 collapse, you know, he was asked like, why do you all always ask about me? You know, in Jalen Hertz, other players, they're angry too, but I'm the one that gets caught

on camera. So all of that comes together. The narrative always comes up that it's personal or something and everybody leaks into it. But no, it's just what happens on the field. And that was the Panthers game where obviously it was the passing game that was a problem. The next week against the Steelers, both A.J. Brown, Devonsi Smith

go for 100 yards the first time in the season. And everybody's happy. So long as like he's productive on the field, which is the ultimate thing any of them care about, that's all that Jalen Hertz cares about, it's going to be fine. So at the time, I recognized that having experienced it and seen it last year, and then it was really here we go again and we have to explain this whole thing again to the nation.

The whole thing, just the way it had unfolded, it was like, he was asked a very direct question about what wasn't working. Sequin had just run for like 200 yards again. He was about to win the MVP award. So saying the passing game is what we need to improve on was objectively true in the moment and I never really understood the issue with it.

And it was kind of funny because, you know, one word answer, passing. You asked Jalen Hertz. Well, we yearn for a more comparative and balanced You know, like, okay, so passing, yes? Okay, cool. So passing is a problem. Next week they fix it.

So it's, yeah, that's all that was. You allude to him a little bit. I guess the last guy that I think he was named we need to mention is part of this. As you think about why this team feels different than the 2020 team did or even the end of last year, what Jaylon Carter has become, I think, has to be a part of the story of this team because you have all the star power on offense. And the defense, what to me is remarkable about the defense, when you think about it holistically, they just don't really have a lot of holes. There are very solid starters that

essentially every single defensive position, but you need a little bit of star power to take it over the top, especially when you get into the postseason. And Jalen Carter becoming that sort of force on that side of the ball, I think that probably to me is what feels the most different about this defense now compared to what even felt like in week one of this year. I think Zach Bond said it best. I was asking him for a story I was doing on Jalen Carter about what's it like playing behind and Zach Bond said, well, I'm a new linebacker, so I don't really have too many preferences in terms of whether that guy makes a play or I don't make a play.

So I just tell him, go left or go right, make a choice, I'll make you right. So you're going to probably make a play. I will make you right. If the play call is like, all right, you take the B and I'm supposed to take the A and you feel like you need to go that way, I won't make you right. So there's not as much flexibility as people think there are on the defensive line. There are yes and noes. Get to this spot.

and how you get there, you can add your own little flare to it. But sometimes Jalen Carter makes a decision that's out of the box. And I remember against the Ravens in the Red Zone, they ran a speed sweep, the whole offensive line goes this way, and they were supposed to go the opposite way to Zay Flowers. Jalen Carter went straight to it and took him down in the backfield. And that was him watching film, recognizing that, and deciding to go for it. Most defensive linemen don't have their eyes on the jet sweep coming into the backfield. So he saw that, went for it.

And Thomas Booker, who's another defensive tackle for the Eagles, I asked him about this very thing. And he said, like, within this, as long as you have a reason for what you did, then you're going to be okay. Like, as long as you can go into the film room afterward and they say, why the heck did you do that? And you said, all right, I know this is the confounds I'm working through, but I did this for X, Y, and Z. Then that's fine. They don't want you to just be bawling out willy-nilly. They want you to have reasons for it. And Carter is combining all those things.

operating within the system that really works well for him. And it's one of the larger reasons why they're doing so well. Adding another star onto the pile of stars that this team has. And I think, remember, for the second time in three years, it's going to be a conversation about whether all that collective star power on the Eagles is enough to take down the more centralized star power on the other side. And I think that's going to kind of be the, you know, the prevailing thought and the overarching question that rides over a lot of this week.

I think the Eagles have it. I think you look at the rosters. And in terms of EPA, this is a team that's high at it, and the Chiefs are some times not even in the top 10. You look at the FPI rankings out of ESPN, which measures strength the team. They favor the Eagles. I think the reason why the Chiefs are the favorite right now is because nobody is willing to go against their gut

and say Patrick Mahomes won't kill them in the end. I also think a lot of those stats are almost irrelevant, considering what the Chiefs are during the regular season at this point. I've fallen into this trap way too many times where I look at them, like, ah, they're just not as good as they were. And then they get to the end of the regular season and they turn into a completely different team. But I watch a game like the divisional round against the Texans where they're making mistakes. If there was any breath of life on the offense for the Houston Texans, they might have been the ones to take them out.

And I look at the way that the offense is constructed, and I think that the Eagles are going to capitalize on those mistakes. They are going to be in control at the end. I really do feel like at the end of this game, the Eagles were the ones that are up eight or nine, and Mahomes can't kill them like that. And they've built this team partly for that. And that's one of the reasons why Howard Rosen was talking about, seeing those four teams physically in his office. Like, where do we match up? Where do we match up? Oh, the chiefs are in my head.

And you build a roster to be champions. And this is a team that really fits well against this particular chief's team. And I think they do get it done. We'll see how it goes. Brooks Kibina, thank you very much for the time, sir. Always get to chat with you and look forward to the rest of the week. Yeah, me too. All right, guys, that's all we got for today.

Thank you so much to Nate. Thank you so much to Brooks. Really appreciate. their time. If you guys have not been checking out the live streams that we have coming your guys as way on the athletic YouTube page, the Scoop City YouTube page, and the Athletic Football Show YouTube page every day at 5 p.m. Eastern this week, live from Radio Row here in New Orleans. Me, Diana Rossini, Derek Classen, a rotating cast of our athletic personalities. Be coming to you guys with sort of a wrap-up about the day that was on Radio Row.

On Tuesday's show, we chatted with Andrew Marshang, our senior media correspondent here at the Athletic, about the Tom Brady aspect of the Super Bowl. Diana and her interviews with both Drake May and Kirk Cousins. We clipped out some of the best stuff from both of those conversations on the show. So if you want to see what it's like to be around Radio Row in a given day, we're doing that every single day at 5 p.m. Eastern. Also, if you want to see what I look like with a child's face paint on, because that's what I had to do on, Tuesday at Radio Row to pay off the Winspool bet with Derek, you can go check that out on our YouTube page. I got to take it off before the live stream and then realize that I was just going to be

covered in glitter instead of face paint. And that also required an explanation that I did not enjoy giving to people. So please check out those live streams. If that's something that might interest you, we would really appreciate it. We're going to be coming your guys' way every single day at 5 p.m. Eastern. We have two more podcasts coming your way on the athletic football show feed. before Friday. We're going to do a show with me and Derek tomorrow just about some of the narratives around the players, the personalities in this game, and how they've shifted from maybe what we

believed in the preseason. And then coming your way on Friday is going to be our big blowout Super Bowl preview, which is one of my favorite shows that we do every single year. For now, that is all we've got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.