The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The Daniel Jones conundrum, the Jared Goff question, and Patriots offense turnover; day one from the NFL combine

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

We are coming to you live from Indianapolis and the NFL combine all week, where we'll be visiting with The Athletic beat writers who cover the most interesting teams of the 2023 offseason. We kick it off in this episode with the Giants, Patriots and Lions. Dan Duggan (Giants), Chad Graff (Patriots) and Colton Pouncy (Lions) sit down with Robert Mays to talk about the big questions confronting the teams they cover.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Dan on Twitter: @DDuggan21Follow Chad on Twitter: @ChadGraffFollow Colton on Twitter: @colton_pouncySubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's show is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.com2:43 New York Giants27:01 New England Patriots51:37 Detroit Lions Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome, the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. We are at the NFL Scouting Combine in Indianapolis. The best part of this event is that we get to catch up with a bunch of different people. We had a huge meeting today with our entire NFL staff, the athletic. Everybody is in town.

So we're going to run back something we did last year. Last year we visited with 9, 10 writers that I thought made up the most interesting teams of that off season. And we're going to do that again over the next few days. Teams that have huge quarterback questions, teams that have a ton of resources, teams that can kind of control the story here over the next month, two months as we wade into the off season. So we're going to do that over the next few days.

And we're going to start today with three writers that I'm very excited to chat with. We're going to talk with Colton Pouncey, our Lions writer. The Lions are just, I love the Lions. I'm so excited to talk about them all the time, think about them all the time. think about them all the time. Really enjoyed visiting with Colton. We're going to chat with Chad Graff, our Patriots writer at the Athletic,

just because I don't really know what the hell the Patriots are, so having him help me sort through that will be nice. But before we get to either one of those guys, I wanted to start this by chatting with Dan Dugan, one of our Giants writers at the Athletic. The Giants have some huge questions to address, really over the next couple days. Like, theirs are more urgent and pressing

than pretty much any team we're going to talk about. this exercise. So let's get to that conversation with Dan right now. All right, time now to chat with one of our Giants writers, the athletic, Dan Dugan. Very good to meet with you, my friend. Always good to chat with you. Always good to be with you. All right. I'm going to ask you a similar question to the one I asked Nate last week about Daniel Jones. What do you think is the conversation the giants are having right now about the decisions that they have with Daniel Jones? And let's call them two decisions. A long-term deal in the $40 million a year range or the non-exclusive franchise tag, which is one I would assume they would give him, which if you're not afraid that a team is

going to sign your quarterback for two first-round picks, maybe you shouldn't commit to him long-term. It's an entirely different conversation. What do you think are the arguments on both sides of that fence right now if you're the Giants? Yeah, I don't know if that is like a separate conversation because yeah, if you're not all in, are you in 40 million or you're 38 million in? So this is my question. is like what is the goal here? What is the end game with both of these solutions and how it brings you from point A to point B,

point B hopefully being a Super Bowl contender? Right. And I feel we always have to go back a year because I think we spoke last year around this time and it felt like Joe Shane and Brian Dable had a clean slate. They were going to give all these guys like one year, but they probably knew in the back of their minds we're not going to be that good.

We're going to start over, follow the Buffalo blueprint, get our quarterback, reset the clock. And instead they went out in one-nine games, want a play out game, and Daniel Jones played pretty damn well, at least in that playoff win and change the narrative. And they got around him and they fell for him like every other coaching staff has fallen for him, the way he works, the way he's in the locker room, in the huddle.

He checks every box like that. But on the field, I think they saw this is a guy we can win with. But what is the price you're willing to play with pay a guy you can win with? It's not $45 million to use the number that's been throwing around a lot of what he's looking for. But if you're Daniel Jones, I can understand why you'd at least start there. Kylo Marri was in your draft class. He hasn't won any playoff games and he's kind of a mess right now. he got 46 last year so you're going to start below that and even if you know maybe the end price is going to be 40 you're going to start that high because you know the team is going to start lower on the tag you know you try and meet somewhere in the middle it's how obviously negotiations work but if you're the team what is the breaking point because they have the tag in the back pocket they're not going to give him 45 million dollars year they're just not going to go there but so then how good do you feel i think that's probably the point you're getting at it's like we're just going to tag him and kind of run it back for a year because my feeling on the tag with dan jones i get it you're you don't want to blow it up you just

finally tasted some success. He's young. You still probably feel like he has room to grow. But in a year after paying him $32 million and kind of hamstringing what you can do, because that's a huge chunk to take out of their caps. The tag makes you inflexible because it's $32 million against the cap for one year. It's not $32 million to a quarterback over a long-term deal where the cap hit in year one is 19. You can have a little bit. $45 million a year and have a way lower cap hit if you want to manipulate as much as you can. So my point is that, so say they tag him, how much different are they probably going to feel about Daniel Jones 12 months from now? Like, where's it going to get them to?

Because I don't think his performance is going to drastically change from what you probably just saw. It's not like he had this crazy year and, like, was that an outlier? And it's not like he's going to probably regress to being terrible. I think he's probably going to be a pretty similar player in 2023. So, okay, now next year we do the same song and dance again. Like, I think they're in a very sticky spot. And I don't have an easy answer because I don't think he's worth $45 million.

But can you say, have such a hard line that say, like, well, let this guy test the market? You can't do that with quarterback, I feel. And even if you've let him go and you let him like, what is the alternative? I hate operating for that. I think that's a terrible reason to like potentially commit $150 million, $200 million to a guy. But like you're still, you know,

you're going to try and feel the competitive team. You're trying to have a quarterback, you know, they have confidence in next year. Like if you were to move off from, which again, I don't think they will. They'll tag him, worst case scenario in their opinion. But even if they were going to really be bold, like I don't even know what the plan B would be.

All right. So let's say it's 40 million a year. And that's the number they would eventually come to in a long-term extension. Which teams have that archetype of quarterback that are successful? Like, really successful. No, and that's the problem. Because, I mean, I'm around Giants fans on social media all the time.

They laugh at the fact that DAC got $40 million. You know, look how it's hamstrung them. Deck is better than Daniel Joss. You're right. And I would hope most Giants fans could soberly analyze that. You'd be wrong about that. And most of them probably aren't sober, but I don't think they would be able to do that. But, yeah, so it's funny because, yeah, you look at these other quarterbacks,

like the Kirk Cousins and the Jared Goss, these guys, Ryan Tannhill is like a favorable comparison, but like, where has that gotten to see? They built a machine around Ryan Tannel. And it still wasn't enough. So yeah, and it's tough because I think you on your podcast saying it's like,

it's probably the pendulum swung too far. It's like it can't be you have to like patch my homes or tear it down. Like there's nothing wrong like having a serviceable quarter. But I'll, what are you doing with that? Right. Like what is it in service of? Right.

Okay. So if you're the Giants this year or even over the next three years, like building around that $40 million dollar, your quarterback if it's like a three year commitment. It's really hard to do, especially when you're in this stage of your team building process. You don't have a ton of young offensive stars. You know, you really haven't allocated that sort of draft capital to pass catchers, that kind of stuff. It just feels like kind of a weight around your ankle. So if you don't choose to do that and you choose to give him the tag for one year, what is that in service of? What does one year of

Daniel Jones being your quarterback do for you as the Giants? The argument on my end as to why you would potentially do that is you can't go backwards. So if you can't really concede that we're going to spend nothing on quarterback or Tyra Taylor is going to start, whatever, that feels difficult after you win nine games and a playoff game. If you give him the tag for one year, you're competitive for another year, you send a message to the locker room that we are trying to win actively right now. You still maintain flexibility into 2024 and beyond if you want to go draft a quarterback. Like trying to find that balance of we're not blowing this thing up, but we don't want to have that anvil tied around us as we're trying to build the rest of the team. That seems to be the balancing act that they're having

to pull off right now. Oh, for sure. That's why I was actually talking to an executive from another team. He's like, they kind of screwed themselves by exceeding expectations because, again, I think they came in with a pretty clear vision of like how this was going to go. And Brian Davis was just such a darn good coach. And they, you know, they won enough games that they weren't in position to, you know, get one of these quarterbacks in the top five, top ten. It's a good problem to have. But it still is sort of a problem. They have to weed their way through it. And like, I think the tag is probably where this is headed at least temporarily, because obviously the tag deadline is March 7th. You still have another week there for free agency starts where it really like really limits what you

can do. And that's probably where if I'm Daniel Jones, like that's my leverage. Like, listen, I mean, you have $32 million locked up me. Let's meet what my demands are closer to them. And that way you have a lot more freedom to, you know, helps me, helps the team. But if it's a really hard line thing where it's going to be the tag, like, take home and Barclay probably walks. Like what does this offense look like without him? and you bring Daniel Jones back. So, like, the tag to me is not a great outcome from either side. I think it offers more leverage to Daniel Jones,

but I don't think either side should be like, that's not like a viable alternative to, you know, getting some long term. Even you're the Giants, like a long-term commitment, yet it's a little scarier, but I think in the short term it's kind of better because you have flexibility,

you said this year because you can lower that cap hit. You know you're probably going to have, let's say, at least two years. I don't think that's the worst-case scenario to have Daniel Jones for two years. And like you said, maybe give yourself an out to draft a guy, if, you know, if you just nose dives.

That makes sense to me, where it's like, okay, we know that if we drafted a guy next year, maybe we'd want him to sit a little bit, and we'd have him kind of keeping the seat warm. If you can make sure that you're committed to this for two years while also knowing that you need another plan, that I can sort of get on board with that. But isn't it so difficult to commit $40 million a year to a quarterback

that you know isn't the guy you want in the long game? Like, that's really hard for me to justify. No, it is. It's like why it's like, so he's worth $35 million a year, but not $40 million a year. It's like that's, I mean, listen, that's big money to us, but in their world, really isn't, but it feels like that's kind of where this could head to the tag where it's like,

oh, we're not going to go that high on you. But what message are you sending? But that's the question. The message is what I'm worried about, and what I'm curious about. What is the downside if he walks? What is the worst case scenario in my, in your opinion? If they're just like, you know what, we just can't do it. We can't justify it.

We'll play with, I'm trying to think of a good, I was trying to figure out who the stopgap veteran could be. And I, there's really no like connecting points. Right. because Daibble was just in Buffalo where Matt Barclay and Case Keenum and stuff for the backups. So there's no one guy. It's like, oh, he has this connection.

One year, eight million. That's what they do. But let's just say that they signed that type of quarterback for a year. What is the worst case scenario for you? Yeah, when they have Tyra, which I think he was brought in as like the guy he's been in last few years where

you start five games, not like a 17-age or start five games in hand that reigns over to the rookie. No, I don't think they would have to have just the gumption to like, except that we're probably going to get a step back. And I just think that's a hard. sell, and it shouldn't be. Like, they should build up some equity.

Is it a hard sell to the players? Is it a hard sell to the city? Ownership, fan base, all that. And listen, like, that's obviously those guys signed your checks. That stuff is real. It's very real. You know, as much self-confidence

or, you know, whatever we want to say, Joe Shane could have, he still doesn't walk into his boss's office and say, listen, boss, I know you'll love this quarterback. I know he just had, like, this great playoff game. I know we won these games this year. But we're going to let him go and just kind of like cobble it together. That's a tough conversation. Because, again, they do like him.

It's not even a situation where there's some problems, some red flags with him. They know what they'll get from him. It's just the question is what they'll get from him worth what he's commanding, what the market really demands, he gets paid. But yeah, I mean, I think if you were to say, like, let's just blow it up and step back, that would be like in a computer simulation

probably the absolute right way to go, but with the variables and the human dynamics, it would be dicey. It would be hard to pull off and you lose a lot of equity built up because if they go three and 14 next year, I don't think as that season's progressing, it's like, hey, don't worry, we're going to get a quarterback in the next draft. I think it'll be like, this is terrible. How did we go from playoffs to this? I think you have to

fact all then, whether that's the right or wrong way to operate. So I think if you're looking at a situation where this is kind of worked, what the Lions did with Jared Goff? And they went out and they purposely acquired Jared Goff's contract. And they purposely collected on the books for a couple of years. So if you look at Jared Goff's cap, it's actually much more palatable because he only had a very small base salary in 2021 when he got traded. The Rams ate a lot of that money. It was only 10.7 million. And then it was 31 million in 2022. So you average that out. That's only what is it? It's only $20 million a year.

Chandan Jones is going to get more than that. So again, even trying to find favorable comparison points for this is really, really hard because I can understand the argument of, okay, we want to be competitive. There's value in being competitive. You create a culture, you create an expectation, you create an offensive infrastructure where a guy like Amman Ross St. Brown can start to flourish because you have a real quarterback

play. You win games and you're a team that is to be, taken seriously, there's value in that. But where do you draw the line and where that stops becoming viable? Where do the return start to diminish? I just, I don't know the best answer. Yeah, no, I don't either.

I think with anything with him, there has to be projection that this isn't the best he can be. And I think you can point to things that suggests that might be the case because the wide receiver core was, you know, yes, like probably 32 of 32 last year. And he made guys like Isaiah Hodgens and Richie James and Darius Slateon look like

credible NFL wide receivers. And then you can counter with that saying, well, if you make all this money. It's going to be harder for us to, you know, go spend and get better receivers. So there's such a push and pull to every side of this argument. But I would say that would be the thing I would look at. I say, like, all right, that was year one. We had like no money. We were like really, you know, replacement level players at a lot of positions.

We can still find upgrades. Maybe it's the interior office line. You got another draft here. Like we can get some pieces that should make him better. But again, that's a projection. And if you're, if you're making any sort of commitment to him, you have to project that like, you know, 15 touchdown passes is not going to be like the norm. He's going to, there's going to be more productive.

I know he did all with his legs, but just as a pass, so you're going to pay that much money. You need to be able to throw the ball more and giving all that money to turn around handoff. So he needs to be able to play at a higher level. They have to believe he can if they're going to make that level of commitment. So let's build around him on offense then. Let's say we, in this hypothetical, Daniel Jones is on the team next year. He's making $25 million against the cap. If they move on from Kenny Gallaudet as opposed June 1st, which I assume Kenny Gallaudet won't be on the team next year.

I think that's a safe bet. They're at $60 million in cap space. Daniels takes up $25 of that. That's still 35. So you got $35 million plus the 26th pick. 25th pick. How do you build an offense with the resources that you have around Daniel Jones in this scenario? Yeah, well, so then Saigon Barclay's back on the tag.

I think 100%. Okay. That's a huge part of this dime. That's $35 million for those two guys then. Like it's just, but that is such a huge, like Joe Shane talks about this if then scenarios a lot. So it's kind of like if we extend Daniel Jones, then we can franchise Saks Warkley.

if Daniel Jones takes the tag that Saqlein Barkley hits the market. I'm filling in the blanks for him, but that's how he lays out these if-then scenarios because there's no way they're going to tag Daniel Jones a $32 million and then pay Seekwon Barkley like a $12, $13, $14 million a year deal on a big-term extension, they're not going to do that. The tag for them with Seekwan is kind of the ace in the hole,

but it's contingent on not having used the tag on Daniel Jones. So to say your example there where they signed Daniel Jones, you tagging Seekwan. wide receiver is tough because the free agent market stinks. It's terrible. Like you don't want to pay any of those guys. Like I might,

Darius Slateen might be like one of the better wide receivers out there and you don't really want to pay him to bring him back. He was nice as like a fifth round, you know, discovery. So that's where, but the one thing I say is everyone talks about like trade for guys, trade for guys.

We've seen that become the way teams, you know, get these big time guys like going into the last year of their rookie deal maybe and give him big extension. But like the Giants picking 25th, a lot of those guys were picked around 25. Like Brandon Ayuk was the 25th. pick. T. Higgins was like an early second round pick.

Like that's the hard part of the job. Like not just giving away your draft Fats to get a guy who like, you know T. Higgins is a good NFL player. But like go find the next T. Higgins with a 20-f pick. I think that's where this build is still going to have to happen through the draft. Like they're not one piece away. Like, oh, we bring Daniel back. We bring Seiko and Barkley back. That was still a nine-win team last year. It's not like, oh, we just need that one finish and touch the A.J. Brown or whatever to get us over the hump. So I think they can't get too, like, I'm with you. I'm with you.

Still needs to be through the draft. That's where you need to find, hopefully, your wide receiver won and like we can get dame brugel on here tell you who that would be and like you know we you never know Justin Jefferson was like the 22nd pick in the draft you don't know but that's where I think they'd have to get the wide receiver upgrade and you know maybe free agency you know I'm going to compare everything to the Buffalo blueprint because

obviously that's where they're coming from and so everyone looks at the stuff on dig trade I look at the year before when they signed John Brown and Cole Beasley to like middle class contracts got good quality NFL receivers are not you know superstars but they're not getting paid superstar prices that's probably where they need to target just to

upgrade that room a little bit. Offensive line, you know, they've drafted a bunch of guys. They've young guys kind of interior. Obviously, they have the two tackles that, you know, Andrew Thomas looks like a stud. You hope Evaniel looks a lot better and kind of follows that Andrew Thomas. Those guys are, that's the foundation. Yeah, they're locked in. If Evan Neil flops, that's just going to be really tough to overcome.

You know, a top, you know, the top seven pick at a tackle spot. He needs to be a guy. What about the interior of the offensive line? Like I said, it's in flux. So you got Mark Lewinsky, who is like the prototypical stop gap. Only free agent, they really signed. It was a three-year deal that was structured to be, this is it, two years. I mean, unless he really rebounds, which you wouldn't expect it to happen as he's getting older.

He'll be the right guard, I would assume, this year. Center left guard. They just have a bunch of names there you could bring back, like, John Flesiano and Nick Gates for a very cheap. I would assume if you want to just, like, get by for cheap at center. They've Josh Azudu, who they took at, like, 67th last year. So, like, he didn't play a lot to your injuries, your kind of rotation, but, like, you know, top 75 pick on a guy. Like, it's not unrealistic expectation. Yeah.

By year, too, he should be, you know, quality, or at least. competent NFL stars. So you have a cheap left guard there, potentially. Ben Bredesen, who was a mid-round pick from the Ravens a few years ago. He's still on his rookie deal. So they can piece that spot together. And they still have obviously draft picks this year where they got the comp pick and the Cadarious Tony Traits.

I think they have, what, four picks in the top three rounds. So there's ammo there to continue upgrading the offensive line without having to use a premium resource. Again, they've already done that with Andrew Thomas. You can't have five top ten picks on your office line. That would be a little excessive. So on defense, this is this. spot where I think things become a little bit interesting because there's a couple glaring holes in

my opinion where it's like, okay, if they get a little bit better here, it's going to go a long way. Linebacker being like the number one. So like if this team has like a David Long type of player, right, that's where they spend some of that free agent capital that they have, the defensive line we obviously know about. What do you think how it happens with Leonard Williams' contract? He's making $32 million against the cap for people who don't know. $32 million against the cap this year. And it's kind of funny because we just talked about how the quarterback tag, which obviously is the

highest paid position on the tag, you know, scale is $32 million. So if you tag Daniel Jones, you have $64 million tied up in Daniel Jones and Leonard Williams, not necessarily where you want to be. But he's a quality player. Until this season, he's been an Iron Man. You know you can play him 75% of the snaps. He's going to be out there every week. He's good player.

They don't have much else behind him. So you can't cut him. Like you'd save probably $12 million and he'd like $20 million of dead money, which that's not a great on the balance sheet to begin with. But you just open up a huge hole. you just said Dexter Lawrence have this monster breakout season. I think you want to keep those two guys together and actually just, you know, upgrade some depth around them. A way to get Cap's case is Dexter Lawrence because he's on the fifth year option, which is around $12 million, I want to say.

So you can give him a big extension that knocks that down a few millions. That's, you know, you still. And theoretically, you could just extend Leonard Williams, right, if you want to add a couple years after that deal. I think that's the way to go there. I mean, I don't know how that'll play out. Because, yeah, I don't think they're going to cut him. You know, I don't think he's going to just take a straight pay cut. So short-term extension seems like the way to go.

I was like, like, Grady Jarrett, something like a three-year, $50 million extension like last year. They kind of feel like similar players, and similar points in their careers, and it's a way to keep a quality player. But, I mean, that cap it is ridiculous. And he has an $18 million base salary this year. So there's a ton to work with there as far as moving money around,

pushing into the future where their cap space is, you know, astronomical the next couple years. So that's a spot where I think that they'll have to just do a little work there, but shouldn't be too crazy. I think you extend Dexter Lawrence because that market's going to go crazy. You don't need to get into a situation next. year with him being a potential tag guy and you know lock him up and then the linebacker i mean that that position has been so weak other than like the little brief blake martinez you know he had

one good year then got hurt and then you know it fell apart fast but jared davis was in the starting lineup starting like week 17 last year and he started a playoff game like that was the state of the position he wasn't on the team until like week 16 i mean it was it was ridiculous and you know they literally their lineback and core by the end of the season was all guys who weren't even on the roster in not even like training camp like until like week five like jaylin's Smith, Landon Collins, these guys were like just castoffs of castoffs. They weren't even in camps. So yeah, that position definitely needs to be addressed. And it's funny, in another year, I mean, maybe not in your show, but in Giants world, like, Julian Love would be like a kind of a bigger

named free agent. But like he's so far in the background when you're talking about, you know, the quarterback in Saquan-Barkley, but he's a free agent. And I think it makes a lot of sense for them to bring him back. I know he wants to be back. But he also wants to get paid. He's a fourth-round pick. Hasn't exactly cashed in yet. I don't know what his market is going to be. I've heard they had some talks during the year and his asking price is pretty high which again, that's usually how it works early on in negotiations but he's a guy who can hit the market

and I don't know that there'd be teams dying to spend $10 million here on Julian Love. So maybe, you know, cool heads prevail even if he test the market and, you know, sees this might be his best place for him. And cornerback, another spot where Dory Jackson is not quite at Leonard Williams level but he's got like a $20 million cap in the last year

of his deal. Not great. I mean, he's a good player, but always hurt. And I don't think he's a true number one corner. I don't know if you have a $20 million cap it there, but I think you have to just leave that alone because they can't mess with corner, especially in Wingmironville's defense. This is so funny, just because you're talking about even like the linebacker thing. Like playing those linebackers and having that be the plan at that position is a product of being a team that is leading the league in waiver claims and is just really rebuilding

in the way the Giants were last year, which is exactly what you'd expect. But they have disrupted the timeline to such an extent that it becomes so complicated and noddy to figure out what you should do and where you're going because there's not this clean trajectory anymore. And that's why they're a part of this conversation to me, just because you want to kind of operate in this dispassionate, removed. If I was doing all of this in a vacuum,

this is how I would be doing it. And they just don't have the luxury of doing that anymore. It just becomes much different, even if it's a product of something good, like winning a lot more games. Absolutely, it became so much more complicated. When you looked at it last year, you're like, all right, they'll get through this season.

You got everyone's got a little patience to the honeymoon period, the new regime. and then they'll get to like enact their plan and they've had to change it on the fly, which again, it's a good thing. Like going out to Minnesota and winning a playoff game, getting to the second round of playoffs. That was all good stuff.

But now it's made this offseason so much more complicated because listen, they can't just look at it and say if we just like run it back with the same guys, we're going to have the same results. There's a lot of one score wins. They definitely kind of scuffled down the stretch there. But that's it. That's my question.

Do you not know what you really are? And that's a team that probably should tear more of this down and stick to the timeline that you were already going to be on. I know that's difficult in a human way, but it still feels like it's the most prudent approach if we're trying to be a little bit more dispassionate. It is. And I feel like they've exercised that,

like, where they weren't trying to, like, push money to, you know, keep James Bradbury last season. Like, the last off season, they were totally like that. Even into the season, Cadarie's Tony trade, like, you know, they got, you know, mid-round pick for him, but, like, obviously he's a talented player. They'd know wide receivers. Like, maybe they could have tried to, you know,

suck it up and get him with the program, but they said, like, no, like, we're not worried about this year. we're going to get draft picks. We think, you know, best for the long-term outlook to get rid of him and just gets up to what we can. But so now here we are, and it's like, can they continue that? And quarterback is just what makes it so difficult.

Like, it wouldn't be that hard to, like, move on from Sequin Barclay, let's say. You know, it would be in some ways. Face of the franchise, marketability, all that, because he's running back. But, like, just to say, like, we're going to move on from Daniel Jones and you can't present, like, a clear alternative. I mean, listen, Joe Shane makes a lot of money. This is where you earn it because it is not an easy thing to navigate.

and I am not envious at the position that he is in. You, I am, though, because you have a lot to chew out over the next month or so, and I'm sure people are going to be really interested in it. I know that I am. Dan, thank you very much for the time, my friend. Always good to chat with you, always good to chat with you. Thanks, Your Honor. Time now to chat with our Patriots right or the other thing.

I'm still getting used to that a little bit. I'm still getting used to that. I'm still getting used to that. Chat Graf, very good to see you, my friend. It's been a while. It's been a while, but good to see you. Good to be back on the show. The last time we did this, I think we did it in, not a closet.

like actual media room, interview room in Egan, Minnesota. Egan, Minnesota. I was trying to figure out where the new Viking facility is. That's where it is. Someone should test you, just a little content for you in the off season. Have Nate maybe test you on the practice facility of all these teams after all your training can't visit. Because I think you'd get the suburb town of all of these training camp locations and practice sites.

What a sad, sad, like, bulk of knowledge that is. Like, they're so incredibly useless to know where the training facilities are for all of these teams. Give me Seattle Seahawks, for example. It's a tough one-un-in, isn't it? I don't even know. I'm sure you're right. I have no doubt. If you sent it with more confidence.

It's in Renton? Oh my God. I'm a monster. I've never been there. That's how impressive that is. I've never been to the Seahawks training facility, and I still knew that. This is ridiculous.

I wish I had more useful things in my mind. If you asked me to fix something in my house, no fucking idea. There's no way I could ever do it, but I know where the C-TAC training facility. is. Fantastic. All right. I wanted to do the Patriots as part of this conversation because they just feel like a black box to me. I just don't really understand who they are, where they're going. I'm kind of going through the way I would define the Patriots identity. Okay. This is a team

last year where coming into the season, I was like, who's going to play corner for this team? They re-signed Malcolm Butler. Like there were just so many things where they were piecing that position group together. The Patriots finished third in defensive DVA last season. Third. Of course. I would say hearing you mention this, where are they going, who's going to play corner? I'm having flashbacks. It feels like I'm covering the Vikings again. Where I will say.

But the Vikings would finish 23rd in defensive DVOA. The Patriots are going to finish in the top five again because of Bill Belichick. Correct. So you have these questions on defense and personnel-wise and what they're going to look like, and they always seem to have it figured out on that side of the ball. On the offense, though, it feels like the exact opposite, where you're trying to put out all these different fires and I have all these kind of lingering questions about what the personnel is going to be, what the plan is going to be, if they like the

quarterback. And that's the stuff that I want to get into. So when you watch the end of last season, they finished 27th and waited DVA on offense. And it felt like that. By the end of the year, it kind of felt like the house was crumbling a little bit. So you knew that a remodel was most likely coming this spring. What did you think the pillars of that had to look like? Well, first off, they just had to completely revamp the coaching staff.

That's step one. Step one from the very beginning. Matt Patricia and Joe Judge out. It's still unclear exactly how out, but out enough. They're still on the staff. For now, they're still employees of the New England Patriots. They do not release their staff roles until July just before training camp. So we've got a little ways to go before we know exactly what is going on.

But it is safe to say Patricia has been phased out. He is no longer the offensive line coach and play caller. Adrian Clem is the office line coach now? Adrian Cullen will be the offensive line coach, Bill O'Brien. He was at Oregon. He was at Oregon. He was the assistant offensive line coach for the Steelers for a year? Was he the actual offensive line coach for the Steelers?

He was the actual offensive line coach for one year. For one year. So they bring him in that they're kind of redoing the staff a little bit, but it all comes down to Bill O'Brien and how much he can get out of Mac Jones. Because let's face it, the pieces here are not great. Like when you think of the Patriots, you don't think of a team that when you picture their top three needs are premium positions, but there are three needs going into the 14th pick in the draft. Offensive tackle, cornerback, wide receiver.

Like outside of quarterback, you can't have much bigger needs. And those are massive holes for this team to fill. Cornerback, you probably feel better about, even though the talent isn't there, because you've mentioned with Bill Belichick, they're going to be a top 10 defense no matter what. Just pencil it in. The talent may not be the, they'll be good.

What do you do at wide receiver? Like, Jacoby Myers is going to be the number one wide receiver in this free agency class, He's going to get a ton of money because Christian Kirk got a ton of money and their comps are so similar. So is it crazy for a team to throw $19 million a year at him? It's possible. And I don't think that's wise for the Patriots. If markets determine how much these guys get paid, it no longer becomes crazy because that's what the market is going to dictate.

There are only so many receivers to go around, especially when there aren't many in the draft. Even last year, we saw Christian Kirk in that crazy money. Teams had receiving options available to them in the draft in the first two rounds that aren't even available to them this year. And so what do the Patriots do at wide receiver when you drafted Taekwon Thornton last year in the second round? He's your speedster, but it was not a good rookie year near the bottom in terms of yards per route run. Someone with Tyquan Thornton Dynasty shares, I can definitely. You know there's struggles that exist. There was not a great year.

Kendrick Bourne didn't do much after a decent 20-21. And after that, your only other guy on the roster right now is Devonte Parker, which doesn't inspire a ton of comments. confidence. And so, you know, there's a Mac Jones discussion to be had, but also you just have to give him better weapons if you want to see what he can do. Or if you're looking at like the Eagles and saying, maybe we don't have a Patrick Mahomes, but like, let's give this guy a chance to succeed. How do you give this guy a chance to succeed when your options are the best free agent was on your roster last year? And there's no guy that's like screaming down in the draft. You must take this guy at pick 14, there's really no easy solution for how you pick new, how you improve New England's

passing game. So starting with the coaching changes. Last year, the, so rarely in the NFL, do we have something that happens where in the moment, everyone's like, this is a terrible idea. And then it turns out to be a terrible idea. Often these guys know better than we do and things that seem like their mistakes at first glance, there's nuance to it. It just wasn't the case of the Patriots offensive coaching staff. So now you have, Bill Bryan feels like a solution where they maintain continuity and familiarity, the same way they were trying to with Matt Patricia and Joe Judge, but you have an adult who's actually done this before.

So it kind of splits the difference, and it almost is an admission of, we needed an adult who's done this before to come in and run the offense. So I'm wondering if by doing that and kind of writing the ship in that way, is there a sentiment within the building possibly where they know they failed Mac Jones to a certain extent and they still, feel like there's a future with Mac Jones, there's upside with Mac Jones, because it kind of seems like it was souring at points last year, but do they feel a little bit at fault for that? Two things. First, just to answer your question, 100%.

Were some of his on-field antics and perhaps complaining, did they feel that was a demonstrative? Demonstrative. Was that a bit much for a second-year guy who had won 12 career games at that point? Yes. That's not what. Bill Belichick is looking for. So that is very true. And yet, they still believe we did not give him a chance to succeed last year. Roster coaching staff up and down, having Matt Patricia call plays, having Joe Judge be his quarterback's coach from top to bottom.

We didn't give this guy a chance. We set him back. Now, we're giving him Bill O'Brien. Not only is Bill O'Brien the offensive coordinator, he's also the quarterbacks coach. this is a guy they will say to Mack Jones, who has been a head coach, who has been around a long time, did this with Tom Brady.

We're setting you up for success like you had your rookie year with Josh McDaniels when you did play well. Their belief in the building is if we compare that defense that we had last year, number three in DVOA, if special teams, which strange to say about the Patriots

was horrible last year, if that goes back to being a strength, as it has been for most of Bill Belichick's time, then you have a top three defense called a top 10 special teams. All you need is really like the 14th, 15th best offense and you're back in the playoffs. Okay. Yes. All right.

That's exactly right. Is that the goal? Like, what is the end game here? Is the end game to win 11 games and just be in the tournament and maybe you give the bills a slightly harder time than you've given them in late season games or in the playoffs over the last two years? Like, what is success for the 2023 Patriots? Well, I think that this has to be discussed.

Bill Belichick is the GM and head coach. He's how old? He's in his 70s. And success for him, if we're being honest, is one day, three years call it, leaving the league with the most wins. I think that it is safe to say that he would like that record. And so I think they don't want to completely tear it down because he's in his 70s and wants this win record.

And yet, the roster is just not in a place right now where even if things break right, even if they hit on their first round pick, they hit on their second round pick, they make the right moves in free agency. Jacoby Myers takes a pay cut to return. Even if everything breaks right, they're not the chiefs.

They're not, you know, they're probably not even beating the bills for the division. And so, yeah, I think it's going to be incredibly hard for fans to adjust to after the success of the last two decades, but a successful 2023 season is probably winning 10 games and winning in the wild card round. And I know that feels weird for the New England Patriots, but that's success for them right now.

Mack Jones is on a rookie quarterback contract. We have seen teams wield these rookie quarterback contracts to create really bloated rosters top the bottom to allow these teams to compete. You know, the Bengals have done a very good job and using some of their resources and building up their free agent defense. We've seen what the Eagles have done. The Patriots don't feel like they have that type of roster despite having somebody in year three of that sort of contract. Why?

What do you think the missteps have been? Go back a couple of years to when in the midst of the early parts of the pandemic, the Patriots spent like wildfire in free agency. And it seemed like, oh my God, is this Bill Belichick knowing another market inefficiency that nobody else does? and this is going to look so good. Jonu Smith right now is their second highest cap hit. It's horrifying. They gave him one of the worst deals that you could possibly have. They can't get out of it either without taking on tons and tons of dead cap.

Not even that. There is no cap savings if they make him a normal cut. And you look at it, typically, you're going to eat a decent amount of dead money. You can't save that much. They literally can't save money against the salary cap if they were to cut him tomorrow. This is year three of that deal. It's a horrible deal. And so that is the biggest one, but there were other signings like that. Hunter Henry was very good with Josh McDaniel's double-digit touchdowns. That fell off as the

entire offense fell off. Not being able to draft a wide receiver is the other reason. Like Bill Belichick, his entire career does not want to pick wide receivers in the first round. He waited all the way until Nikiel Harry and 19 was the first time in his entire career that he'd ever taking a wide receiver, even though the league had changed, it had become a passing offense, even though we've learned how important wide receivers are. It took them all the way to then, which was the final pick in the draft that year. And then that pick turns into a bust. And because of that, they just don't have very good wide receivers, even though last year they spent more on the cap on their past catchers, wide receivers and tight ends, than anybody

in the league and had so little to show for it. And thus are not able to take advantage. of having a quarterback on a rookie deal. I think this is a great lesson, though, because when you look at the other teams that have been successful with those rookie deals, there is a through line to some of the ways they've built those teams. They've traded typically for wide receiver ones unless they've been able to get them high in the draft. Stefan Diggs was a trade on the Josh Allen thing.

Tyree Kill was a very strange situation, but already in place for Patrick Mahomes. AJ Brown was traded to go to the Eagles. And then you have other teams that landed these guys really high in the draft, or they were already on the roster. So that's really the difference is that even if you have that quarterback on a rookie contract, if you keep striking out and missing on past catchers in the draft and you try to sign guys in free agency, the free agency pool at that position is going to be thinner and thinner and shallower every single year to the point where you're spending $11 million a year on Nelson

Aguilar. And that's the other big deal. It's coming off now, so he won't be on the roster. But their past catchers last year with Nelson, like Jacoby Myers is a nice piece. probably a really good number two receiver in a good offense. But he was, he's their only receiver who had more than 500 yards last year. It's just baffling how bad the past catch. They tried a third round picture for Devonte Parker? Fifth. But he's ranked dead last in separation three straight years. I get that he's a possession guy and that's not his game, but

you need, Mac Jones needs some easy answers. And last year, nothing was easy. He had no easy answers, which was a combination of both Matt Patricia not knowing. how to design an offense, but also the roster not having players who could be easy buttons. You talk a lot about easy buttons, and I think Mack Jones probably had as few easy buttons as anybody in the league. So how do we create more of them? If we're building a path to the 2023 Patriots being eighth in passing DVOA, let's just put that number out there.

What does that path look like to you? But if we're trying to be ambitious, if we're trying to, this team can create the firepower necessary to have a puncher's chance against the chiefs in Arrowhead in a divisional round game. What does that look like to you? So I don't know if they will do this, but we know that Bill Belichick loves DeAndre Hopkins. Went on and on before the Arizona game about how incredible he is. He's a future Hall of Famer compared him to the greats of the game, Chris Carter, Randy Moss. He loves himself from DeAndre Hopkins. We also know that DeAndre Hopkins could get dealt this off season.

Would D. Andre Hopkins be willing to come to a Bill O'Brien-led offense after the way things ended in Houston? Oh my God, I didn't even think about that. I think something that remains to be seen. Maybe the affinity for Belichick outweighs however things ended with Bill O'Brien and Houston, but that is probably their best option to getting a number one receiver, which you laid out why that's important. I don't know if he would waive his no trade clause for New England.

And if it's not him, what do you do? Brandon Cook's maybe for a third round pick. You bring him back. That at least gives you another option. Hopefully, Jacoby Myers is willing to take 13.5 million to return. And even if he could get 17 elsewhere. Cook says 20 million in like base salary this year, right? And then they can free up 29.

They can free up like 10 million more pretty easily if they were to move off from Patrick Bourne, J-1 Mills. Yeah, they've got ways that they can make the money. have a lot of cap space. So they would be able to absorb pretty much whatever they wanted to. And I think, again, if we're talking about lack of draft options and then Jacobi Myers being the number one free agent, that might be the only recourse to find a guy like that. And I think it makes a ton of sense because we outline that Belgium does not like to draft

wide receivers in the first round, certainly before pick number 32. And he probably shouldn't, based on the way the track record has gone. It has a second round guys as well. So if you. Aaron Dobson, you know, what's happening with Tycoon third and right now? It's not pretty. I mean, the history is pretty rough. Your memory of that is alarmingly good, but yes, it is very rough.

And so maybe you use that pick for a quarterback or an offensive tackle, trade for best case, DeAndre Hopkins, maybe more realistic case, Brandon Cooks. And then you pair that with Jacoby Myers, and maybe that plus the absence of Matt Patricia, the addition of Bill O'Brien gets you. Maybe Tyquant Thornton does take another step. Maybe that is your path to have it.

a borderline top 10 passing offense. And then offensive line being the other position of somewhat need, right? Because right tackle is now a hole. Yep. Where, I mean, whatever it was last year, some combination of Marcus Canada and Isaiah win and duct tape and paperclips. So that is a spot where they need help and there are guys available in free agency. I know in your piece that you wrote this week about kind of the 10 ways that you would

fix the Patriot. It's signing Joanne Taylor was one of those, which I assume is just a standing for free agent offensive tackle. have they done anything like that in recent memory? Because I can't remember the last time they would have spent on an outside offensive Wyman. No, they haven't because they've kind of been hitting on a lot of them. They haven't needed to, yes.

It's worked. And so they've got four of the spots. They traded for Trent Brown. Yes. Which is a, yes. Yes. And so he'll be back on the last year of his deal at left tackle. And so I think that you could reasonably expect that the offensive line will get a little

bit better, maybe not to as good as it was a couple of years ago. but again, the absence of Matt Patricia, who was the offensive line coach, but also had a million other things on his plate. Like, it's still, I still don't think we talk enough about how crazy it was that not only was Matt Patricia calling plays for the first time ever in designing an offense for the first time ever. He was also the only offensive play caller who was a full-time position coach to such an important position that like takes coaching and reflects who their position coaches. They're moving people around.

Completely wild. think that you could naturally expect the offensive line to get a little bit better. Remandre Stevens in the running back you feel good about. You certainly do. There's a lot of areas that you feel good about. It just, are your past catchers going to be good enough? And is Mack Jones able to improve on what he did his rookie year?

Or despite being set up for failure last year, is that kind of what he is? Do you think that they believe in Mack Jones? If you were to, like, give some truth serum to people in the building, Do you think that they believe Mac Jones is a long-time, long-term starting quarterback in the NFL? I don't think they're ready to say long-time, long-term. I think that they believe he can be. I think that they're so excited to see what 20-23 is.

They actually have enthusiasm about what he can be. It's not just like, oh, man, we're really saddled with this guy. It's not that. It's, boy, we really threw him into the ocean with the life jacket last year. That's what it feels like. That's what it feels like. So hearing that that's actually what the sentiment is in the building is probably a little bit reassuring to Patriots fans. For sure. And now it just comes down to can he actually take that next step that we've talked about, you know, ad nauseum since Josh McDaniels left and it seemed to be working.

And, you know, there's a time not all that long ago that Mack Jones was the better quarterback than Trevor Lawrence, which is wild to think about. And of course, you know, you kind of see what happens with Trevor Lawrence when the coaching changes. And I think the Patriots would hope for a similar jump of Patricia's gone, Judge is not his position coach. We're giving him a real offensive coach. Let's see what he can do. I kind of have this feeling with the Patriots. There's like a little bit of a ship of Theseus thing going on where like if you

replace all the component parts of something, does it cease to be that thing anymore? And even if Bill Belichick is there, Josh McDaniel is leaving, the offensive coaching staff turning over so much, the personnel on kind of both sides of the ball turning over as much as it has. I wonder when the logo ceases to have this mystical power and whether or not we're kind of arriving at that point. Yeah, I think this season will dictate a lot of that. And it's worth recognizing so much around Belichick changed in the last five years, not just Brady, the obvious one. So many of his long time, like the guys that he in private moments could go into their office, shut the door and say, this isn't working.

just vent basically. Dante Scarnacki had a few guys, even front office guys going to Oakland. Yeah, Ivan Fears. Chad O'Shea was the longtime wide receivers coach. He was no longer there. Nick Asario, Dave Ziegler. I mean, just like Mike Sando had the stat. It was something like 200 years of experience around him left in a three year span. And that's, you know, maybe something that is not drawing tons of headlines. but like that had a meaningful impact on a guy who already withdraws quite a bit and, you know,

tends not to make assistant coaches perhaps always feel heard and super welcome. Or have titles. I mean, a lot of different things involved here. So that definitely makes a difference. They are a fascinating team. They're just profoundly weird to me. And that is why I wanted to include them in this. And thank you for helping us sort through it in a small.

all the way today. I'm here for profoundly weird, including your knowledge of suburb training campsites. I got. I really wish that I didn't have that. But unfortunately, that's where we are in life. Really appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you. Thanks for having me.

All right. Time now to visit with our Lions writer at the athletic Colton Ponzi. Your two? Year one. You were just wrapped. Yeah, starting year. Yeah. We're in that off season.

We're heading into year two. This is welcome to the NFL calendar. season is over, even though it's March. We're on to next season. First combine. I enjoy my friend. It's going to be an adventure for you. All right.

So this team is in a really interesting, but I think really good place. You know, looking back through even the picks that they have this year, they're like picks coming out of the woodwork that you forgot about. Obviously, we know that they have the Rams pick in the top 10. But they have an extra pick in the top 56 because of the deal that they made for T.J. Hawkinson. So that's where this team is, is we have. all of these kind of good, warm, fuzzy feelings about the Lions, and it feels like there's

kind of an excess of resources. That's where you want to be. Kind of taking the temperature of Lions fans overall, how weird of a place is this for them to be in right now? Oh, they have no idea what to do. Yeah, just like, no idea what's due with their hands? They're so lost. They're like, are we actually good?

Like, what's happening? Like, we're not stressing over needs. Like, we have all these picks to use. I'm not used to this. They're the best possible position you can be in as a team that didn't make the playoffs. I truly can't imagine a better spot. And honestly, it might be better for them, like, motivation while, like, even players. You know Campbell's going to use that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had a good season. It was okay, but we didn't even make the playoffs. So what are we really, like, celebrating? So I think all things consider, they're in a really good spot. They have a chance to add a lot of talent, either through the draft or free agency. They've got a little bit of cap space to play with. They got five picks in the top 85.

They can fill some needs. They can go best player available. They're in a really good spot. They can trade up if they want to maybe try to get like a Jalen Carter type. They could trade back a little bit if they feel like there's a player. in their range in the top 10, maybe a few spots down to a team that needs a quarterback. So, I mean, they can sit and stand where they are, and they'll probably come out with some good players. So they're a really good spot overall. So you mentioned defensive line is, and I think

that's where you have to start, right? I mean, this offense was very good. It was a top five offense, and especially the second half of the season. I think there's some tweaks to make, and we can get into those. But where they really have to do a lot of remodeling is on the defensive side of the ball. What is kind of the status of the defensive line for people that aren't there all the time? Because on Syrike? Levi, yeah, Olen-Zerike. Olens-Rike, didn't play last year. Back injury.

Right? So he was a second round pick. Josh Pascoe was a second round pick last season. But every time I single time I hear people talk about the lions or look at a mock draft or whatever, it seems like they're defensive line going there. So what is the state of that position group and why do we feel like they need more help there after all the resources they poured into it? Yeah. I mean, honestly, you could look at last year, their best player on the entire defense, not just the defensive line was Aidan Hutchinson, like a rookie. and they had so many unknowns.

I think they were banking on Levi to kind of be that dominant three tech. You know, Brad Holmes drafted in the second round. I think there were some rumors that he wanted to trade up for him in the first round that year and was able to get him the second. So it was very high on him. And, you know, obviously that was a major setback losing him for the year. They kind of had to scramble to kind of put together that defensive line, really the interior. I think they felt good at the edge positions with Charles Harris on one side

and Aden coming into the season. Really, they had a Lee McNeil who had a good decent rookie year, but didn't really know what you were getting from him in year two. Isaiah Bugs was sort of this journeyman guy, was with the stairs for a little bit, but never really made an impact there. Brought him in, and he was just kind of forced into action, really started taking over by like week four, I want to say. Michael Brockers, like was enacted for, I think, 11 of the final 12 games of the season. He didn't really give him much. They just released him. So that position going into the season, you didn't really have much, especially.

And when Levi went down, they were really stuck. So I think they kind of picked up the piece a little bit. Like Aleem had a really good year. Isaiah Bugs gave them some depth. But when you're looking at how you get to the next level, and even the Panthers game kind of exposed their run game and their issues with that. If they want that game, they're in the playoffs,

and they kind of blew it. So if you can get a dominant three tech in there, like a Jalen Carter type, I think they would feel awesome about that. I doubt he's going to be there at six. So I think they're sort of searching for that piece to kind of take that defensive line to the next level, I guess. You feel like the fact that they are searching for that is kind of a commentary on what they can get or expect from Levi moving forward because that's kind of what it says to me.

If you're looking at edges and defensive tackles and people that are plugged in, I was listening to Daniel Jeremiah this week talking about it. It feels like they may not have a lot of faith or a lot of optimism about some of the guys they've drafted pretty high over the last couple years. Yeah, I mean, I think someone asked for like an update on Levi midseason or maybe in November and Campbell's just like, yeah, I mean, that wheel's not moving. We really don't know. That's tough. It is tough. And, you know, maybe he comes back. and is ready to go by OTAs and is looking spry out there.

But, like, we haven't had an update on him in a long time. So the way I've been operating is, like, this is like a, you can get a defensive tackle in either maybe the first round, if it's like a Rizze type, Brian Rizze or some guys on the second round, I think you have some options there. So I'm looking at that as a need. I'm not, like, waiting on Levi to see what he's doing. And so I wouldn't be surprised if they target one in the first couple rounds,

first, you know, day one or day two. That's a need as far as I'm concerned. So that's kind of my question, is that even with all the spent time that still is a need in your mind. I think so. So if you're stacking up the other priorities on the defense, how would you stack it up? Honestly,

I would say cornerback is probably the bigger need. Yeah. It's kind of a weird position because overall, they're 27th in cap spending on defense going into this year. But that number is even a little bit inflated because Okuda's making $10 million against the cap. So there's all these kind of weird contracts. And then they had 1,200 snaps last year from Will Harris and Mike Hughes combined,

both of whom are free agents. It's like that position group almost feels like it needs a total tear. down. Yeah. Amani O' Riorias. He's about to be a Freedant, too, so he's probably not coming back. They benched him during the season. So I'm looking at that position.

It's like Akuta, and they've got Jerry Jacobs who played pretty well as an undrafted free. I love him. Yeah. He's a dog. He's a guy who inspires warm feelings, Jerry Jacobs. Yeah. He's a former undrafted free agent.

So it's like you really haven't invested in that position a whole lot since Akuta, and those guys didn't even draft Akuta. So that's why I look at a cornerback. He'll get five picks on the top 85. This is a very deep. corner class. This is the year to probably add some youth to that position. And maybe I don't think they're going to go out and spend a lot in free and see, but if there is a corner that they like in the open market, maybe you add a veteran to match with a young guy and you say, look, we're investing

in this now, finally. Like it's been years, this is our year to do it. So I would rank cornerback one, probably defensive tackle second. I think they could use a linebacker too. Alex Anzolone is a free agent. I think they could bring them back in a cheap deal, but you should also be looking to upgrade that position. Yeah, that feels like it to me. You go back. and watch that Carolina game. It's like if that guy's leaving anyway, it's probably time midway upgrade a little bit. And though you can find linebackers, right?

You don't need to overspend on that. But again, that feels like somewhat of a whole. The defense it feels like is where they're going to do a lot of their heavy lifting with the resources that they have. But I'm fascinated by how you maintain the offensive success, but also try to bring it to the next level, right?

I think that one of the worst things you can do is an NFL team is look at something that happened and say, if we keep this the same, the results will be the same. same because that's never how it goes. So we'll get to the quarterback thing last because I think that's a huge question. But I also think that this is a team with all of those picks. This is a loaded tight end class, right?

This isn't a team with a real playmaking tight end after they got rid of Hawkinson. So you have Amman Ra, you have Jameson, but you don't really have a third receiver. So even if the offensive line is pretty much set, and I assume they move on from Vaitai for cost-cutting reasons, I need to find a guard, which again, you can find those like in the couch couch cushions, how you make sure that you're trying to take the past catchers to the next level, in my opinion, should be like a mild priority with some of those resources that you have.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think it has to be one certain way. Like, I mean, even the run game, I think can get better. That's something Ben Johnson talked about recently in an interview said that we have a chance to turn some of these four and five yard runs into eight, nine, and home runs type runs. And so I look at the offense as a whole. Lions fans don't want to hear this,

but like you should be worried about regret. You should be worrying about maybe taking a step back. Just because you're top five one year does not mean that's going to carry over to the next. Like injuries happen. They're pretty lucky offensively with injuries like Jared Golf is untouched. They don't even have a back of quarterback right now. So, I mean, I think there are so many ways to address the offense. But in terms of past catchers, like this is a deep tight end class.

Why not try to get one in the second round if you can? Maybe even the third. You got that pick at, I think it's 82. You can get one there and probably can be a starter for you, like from day one. That's how good this tight end class is. in terms of receiver, I think they could use another one because, you know, DJ Chark is a free agent. He's probably going to command probably more money than the lines are willing to pay.

When you look at the free agent. Receiver class, it's kind of how it goes. He might be the second-bust guy after you're coming my horse. I'm saying, like, I don't know if the lines want to pony up for that. We'll see. But, you know, I wouldn't be shocked if Brad takes another receiver. I mean, he's always thinking long term. That's sort of his thing.

People were kind of upset when they trade up to get Jameson last year. And it's like, why are you drafted a standard receiver? Well, he's a game changer when he's fully health. and he's on the field. We saw some of it last year. Probably got to get him a quarterback that can get in the ball. I think golf and him kind of had some timing issues down the end of the year. I think they'll work on that this offseason.

But if you can unlock that part of your game, that part of your offense even, like that's a really key part. And I don't know why people were upset about that last year, but I wouldn't be shocked if they had a possession receiver this year just to kind of get a third guy in there with those two with Omnara and Jameson. So they can go a lot of different directions offensively. probably need a guard too, like you mentioned. So, I mean, it doesn't have to be defense, defense, defense, defense,

like fans are kind of suggesting. I think you can go a lot of different options and help your team as a whole. There are a bunch of picks, but you also have some flexibility and free agency. This isn't a team that's really up against it. And they can free up some money if they make one, two, three moves. I mean, there's a bunch of different ways to go with the research that they have. Let's get to the quarterback question. Okay.

Can't wait. I just, I want to preface this by saying, I think that Jared Goff has played really well. I think that Jared Goff was kind of shipped off to Detroit and left for dead football-wise. I just think that was the way that it was handled and who knows we were already here from Jared golf again. The way that he handled it, the way that he's kind of come through on the other side of it is incredibly impressive.

Jared's absolute pro. 100%. And Jared personality-wise, the way that he carries himself, I totally understand why they wanted to do it in hindsight. I remember talking to Brad Holmes on this show, a couple years ago, and they made the deal. And as I'm thinking about it in my like too much thinking inside the box approach to this kind of stuff, I'm thinking, it's a rebuilding team.

Like, why would you want to take on a quarterback who costs $30 million a year? And credit to them, they understood why it was important because you can be functional. You can kind of be competitive. It can take you to point A from point A to point B. There's value in that type of player. But now they've gotten from point A to point B. How do you get from point B to point B to? contender and how does Jared

golf fit into that plan. And I think that has to be the question that they start asking themselves because they are in such a unique position here. To have this much optimism about where you are, this much enthusiasm, and to still have a top six pick in a draft where there are a bunch

of quarterback options, that's not going to happen again. You hope that doesn't happen again. Because you hope you're picking at 24 next year because you won the NFC North. But if you win the NFC North, and then you get bounced by Philly in the divisional round, you're going to start asking how you can break through that ceiling. And it feels like a true game-changing quarterback, a guy that changes everything about the complexion of who you are, is probably going to be a

part of that calculus, and it kind of feels like this might be the year where they could get one. Yeah. I don't disagree with anything you said. I mean, all the reasons you just listed make a ton of sense to me, I've kind of made some of those same arguments. Like, if you're picking in the top 10 again, some guys are probably going to get fired because this team's at a point where they should be expecting to make the playoffs, expecting to compete for the NMC North. I guess

the question is like, are you at that point yet, though? Like you mentioned they got to point A to point B. Point B was really missing the playoffs. They went 9 and 8. They didn't make the playoffs. So, you know, a lot of people like to make the comparison to like the Chiefs. And like, they went from Alex

Smith. They were competitive and then they sought an opportunity to upgrade, have the transition, they got to where they were. Obviously, there's not a ton of Patrick Holmes, you know, just lying out there. But when I looked at the Lions, to me, Brad Holmes was part of the crew that drafted Jared Gough. He traded for him, even at the end of the year, he said it's easier to get worse at quarterback than it's to get better. And we have to keep that in mind. And I never view Jared Gough as a bridge. Like, those are, that's what he told us at the end of the year. So it's either maybe he's trying to hide his true intention than he does want a quarterback, or he truly feels that way. And if he does feel that way, then I think the thinking should be let's surround him with as much talent as we can.

Let's get him a defense. Our defense was ranked dead last and yards allowed. How can we fix that to give him a more complete team? And then let's see what he can do once we get to the playoffs. Once we give him a chance, you know, to prove with us. We know what he did with the Rams, but with us, this is a franchise that has not made the playoffs in, I think since 2017. They've not won a playoff game since 1999. one like that's that's a long time um so i think for them i could see them if they want to take it

slowly and just see what golf can give them um before they go into the hole replace him and try to upgrade the question for me long term is like i get what you're saying it's like if golf is going to be our guy um like what's his ceiling how far can he take us when his contract is is up we have to pay him again you know we have to factor that into the roster and cap space and everything and it's like is that your guy that you feel comfortable for the next five years with that is a question they'll have to answer. But in terms of this year and getting a quarterback, I get it.

Six is looking pretty enticing right now. If one of those guys falls or they fall in love with Anthony Richardson and they can kind of let him sit behind golf for a year or two, and that seems like a really good spot for him. It seems like a really good spot for Richardson. But again, the Lions have options. Like they can do whatever they want with the draft. They can draft a quarterback.

They can pass a one. They can go defense defense in the first. They can draft B. John at 18 maybe if he's there. I think they have so many different ways to kind of improve the roster and get to where they want to go. But the long-term question is always going to be, is Goff good enough to win us to Super Bowl? And I guess for me, they're not at that point yet.

Like, they're getting there probably like a year away from that conversation, but I get it. If you have that- I just don't know why you'd run into the dead end on purpose. If you can avoid it, why drive yourself into the dead end? That's my question. Okay, so Jared Goff is making $31 million against the cap this year. that has the 10th highest cap in among quarterbacks in the NFL.

That's fine. That's a reasonable amount to pay for Jared Gough and what he has given you. That's still 14% of the cap. The only quarterback to win a Super Bowl and under this CBA in the modern era making more than 12% of the cap was Patrick Mahomes this year.

It doesn't happen very often. This type of quarterback, it's very, very hard to win a Super Bowl with that guy. $31 million against the cap this year. How much do you think Joe Burrow made combined in the last four years against the cap? I don't know.

35 million. All right. Over four years. Golf will make 31 million this year. It's hard. It's very hard. It's really hard to do it with this type of guy, even if this type of guy has given you everything you could ask from him.

And that's what Jared Goff has given them. So if you like Anthony Richardson, you are in such a rare position where you can take that guy from a position of strength, let him sit the entire season in the way that the chiefs did. And the only thing I'll say about you saying, well, it's not really the chiefs. They didn't make the playoffs. The chiefs were a top five offense with Alex Smith. They had created such a hospitable offensive infrastructure for the guy that they had

that they could drop their next quarterback, one who needed time, into a hospitable hospitable offensive infrastructure, the likes that you typically don't have when you're drafting a quarterback in the top ten. And that is the rare position in the Lions have found themselves. This all comes back to, do they even like Anthony Richardson? If the answer to that is yes. They went to see him five times last season. If the answer to that is yes, I just think that you're in a spot where so few teams can do what the chiefs did.

And it's a good plan. It's a really good plan to give that guy every opportunity is to succeed. Look, if it works out, you're a Super Bowl contender for years. Like your window is wide open. And I think people are scared of that. Like, Lions fans especially, like they're not used to the idea. they think something's going to go wrong. They think if they draft a quarterback like that, he's going to be a bust.

Like, that's, they're thinking, Brad Holmes might have more of a big picture idea. So if he drafts a quarterback at six, I'm not to be surprised at all. I think I would understand it. And I wrote the same thing a month ago, and I got a lot of hate for it, but all the reason you just laid out,

like Richardson would be perfect for the Lions. He can sit behind golf. Ben Johnson's around another year with him. We'll see how long he lasts after that. But he's here for the next year, his rookie year to kind of guide him and mold him into an NFL quarterback. And that's what he needs. He needs that teaching. He needs to sit and watch. And the Lions, a few teams can match what they have in offensively for a young quarterback to come in and have success. So we'll see if they go there.

I'm kind of on the fence, but I mean, it's not my call. It's Brad Holmes. So thank God. If you, this happens all the time. I think we know this, that quarterbacks are succeeded or failed as often as they fail or succeed. And the Lions are in a really. rare position to be able to prop up and drive their quarterback success if they were to draft one. The big question there being who's the offensive coordinator, right? The chiefs are in this very rare spot where the guy's going to be there. The head coach is the play call or like what creates that offensive infrastructure in Kansas City, the pillars of that are going to stay in place. If Ben Johnson leaves, it becomes a somewhat different conversation, but I still feel so much better

about the spot the Lions could drop a quarterback in that almost any other team that's going to draft quarterback in the top 10 under any circumstances. And I just can't get that out of my head. This is just such a chance that so few teams come across to be able to do it this way on this timeline with this lack of urgency that if you like him, I almost feel like you have to do it. I get it. I think another thing working against is like, you know, fans have sort of rallied around

Jericho. Understandably. They saw what he went through in LA and they feel bad for the guy. And it's like, all right, he's our quarterback. Like, that's our guy. Like, we're not going to let anyone try to replace them. So that's where they are. They're not really thinking long term, but they're not the ones that are paid to do that.

Like, it's the lines of scissormakers at the top. And I guarantee you, they will weigh everything in terms of this draft and adding a quarterback, adding, you know, a corner, a lineback. Like, they'll look at every position. And quarterback just so happens to be the one that you can make the biggest impact on, if you can hit on the right guy. And that might be scary to some people, but like I'm telling you, if Richardson or even another quarterback falls to,

a six that they like and they end up pulling the trigger on it. Like, you're set up for the future. So I get the conversation. I think there are other ways to build a winning team. They don't have to go quarterback, but in terms of like what gives us the best chance to win a Super Bowl and have that window open for a long time, it would be hitting on a quarterback. And when you ask that, like, when's the next time we're going to have a chance to draft

this high, it might be a long time. Like if they're competitive and they're drafting the 20s and you can trade up. We've seen other teams trade up. It just, it's harder to do. The pathways to that point are a little bit more difficult to find. And I get that the fan base is kind of rallied around Jared Gough. I'm sure the franchise is rallied around Jared Gough. I'm sure that having him as kind of that centerpiece of the culture that they've been trying to build there,

that's very real. And pulling the rug out from under that guy when he has been a huge reason that you've been able to build this thing, I'm sure that sends mixed messages to the rest of the building. There's so many different considerations here. and that's why you have to kind of handle it with a deft hand. And I just trust Brad Holmes to be able to do that based on everything else that he's done. Like this is a difficult part of the job, but what are we trying to do here? And if the answer is win Super Bowls, I just think that you have to look at the overall

landscape of the position and what typically lends to that happening. Yeah. I will say if there's one franchise that's set up for it right now, it's probably the lines with everything they have in place, Campbell's culture. or like I think if they have a conversation with golf and, you know, talk it all out, I think he might be receptive to it and try to work with it. So like, I think everyone involved would make the best of the situation if that's the route they go.

But I guess we'll see if they do it. Yeah. And we'll see. Obviously, like, if Jared S gets shipped off somewhere else, like that's not all that fun. But after the end, after the season is over, I'm pretty sure that Jared Gough will have made $120 million playing quarterback in the NFL. That's a lot.

So, like, him being like the bridge quarterback. for X team that is looking for a similar situation while having to move and having to move your family and all that stuff. That's never fun. But I think he'd think he'd be okay. I think that somehow he would manage to figure that out. 120? Yeah, that's not bad.

Excuse me. That is wrong. It's 135 already over the past seven years. So, you know, just something to take into account. But I, it's just another one of those teams that I think that the enthusiasm is justified. I think that all the moves that they've made, so many of them. in retrospect, it's like, man, that was smart. The James and Williams thing being a really good example.

We know what our timeline is. We know that we can kind of put this on the shelf for a year and come back to it. The golf thing, like I mentioned. And that's why I think I'm so interested in what this next set of moves is going to look like because they've done such a good job with the other ones that they've done so far. There are some team builders where you look at the work that they've done, and I'm encouraged by what comes next. There's intrigue there.

And Brad Holmes has become that, on what they've done so far during his tenure. So that's why I wanted them to be part of this conversation because I just find them a fascinating team right now. Yeah, I mean, year one, they were here. They sat back and got Sewell. Year two, they traded up. They were aggressive with Jameson.

So, like, you know, people try to peg Brad Holmes. And, like, honestly, I don't think you can. Like, I think he's going to do what he feels is right in the moment and what he thinks is best for the franchise, like, long term. And when you're talking about getting a quarterback in there, like, that is a long-term move. He was not afraid to draft an injured receiver at 12 and trade-up for him. And I think he feels pretty damn good about that,

been all things considered. He missed most of the season, but still feels good long term. You have a weapon like that with that kind of game-changing speed. He's going to try to look for talents like that. So, I mean, again, they're in a good spot.

They're probably an enviable spot for a lot of teams in the league, and it does feel like they're just getting started. The last thing I'll ask you, if Ben Johnson gets tired of win next off-season, do you think his replacement is on the staff? I think so. Tanner Engstren was the Titans coach.

They recently removed that title so he can work closely with Ben Johnson. and he's already the passing game coordinator, but now that's his sole title. So it does feel like they're kind of, you know, they're trick-griming. And that's the question to me about a quarterback. If you bring somebody in,

can you have some continuity about who the next offensive coordinator is? It's a familiar voice. The vision is still the same. You feel like you're kind of building on something because that becomes important. Yeah. You know, in some of these other situations, you know, the bills were very lucky in that Brian Dable was around for three years

instead of just one with whoever that next quarterback would be. And they had Ken Dorsey in the building. Like, just having that guy to be able to really smoothly hand the baton over, I think is important, especially if you're developing a young quarterback. So they probably have to have a plan in place because if this year goes anything like last year, I assume that he'll be gone. Yeah, absolutely. I was surprised that he actually stayed. So was I. I think it speaks to what they've got, what they're doing there. And I think that that's exactly what you want. You want a guy to say, you know what? This is a pretty good situation. And I'm going to keep rolling with this. And again, those are kind of the general vibes around this team right now. Ray's doesn't hurt. No, that's not too bad. That always helps. Colton, very good to chat with you, my friend. Always good to catch up. Let's do this again sometime.

Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me all. All right, guys, that's all we've got. Thank you so much to Colton. Thank you so much to Chad. Thank you so much to Dan. We'll be back tomorrow with our next set of three writers. If you have not checked out the third episode of Between the Lines to Sean Reed's

excellent new narrative podcast series about the Black Experience in the NFL. That is available in your feed right now. highly encourage you guys to go check that out. If you have not listened to the Combine preview, the prospects the pros did on Monday. They're not going to be on Wednesday this week. Dane, Andy talked about what to watch for in Indianapolis. You guys should absolutely check that out before the workouts get going here at the Combine.

For now, that's all we have. We'll be coming to you every day throughout this week from Indy. Really appreciate the time. Talk to you guys soon. This was the Athletic Football Show. Thank you.