The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The highs and lows from this season's rookie quarterbacks with J.T. O'Sullivan; MNF recap and the state of the Giants with Dan Duggan

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Each of this season's four first-round starting quarterbacks—Caleb Williams, Jayden Daniels, Drake Maye and Bo Nix—have shown off some highs and some lows, with the possible exception of lows from Daniels. How does all that shake out in the aggregate? Former NFL quarterback J.T. O'Sullivan, the brain behind The QB School, joins Robert Mays to break down what we've seen from the rookie quarterbacks so far this season. Before that, The Athletic's Giants beat writer Dan Duggan joins to recap the team's loss MNF loss to the Steelers and weigh in on the state of the franchise.RundownThe state of the GiantsCaleb WilliamsJayden DanielsDrake MayeBo NixUpon Further Review: Anthony Richardson benchedThe Ball KnowerRome Odunze needs to play moreMatt LaFleur is an elite playcallerRooting for Tua TagovailoaHost: Robert MaysWith: Dan Duggan and J.T. O'SullivanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Dan on X: @DDuggan21Follow J.T. on X: @theqbschoolTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show, brought to you by Thursday Night Football only on Prime Video. I'm Robert May's great midweek show on tap for you guys today. Our Giants writer, Dan Duggan, was at the Giants Steelers game last night. We chatted with Dan about what he took from that game on the giant, from the Giants perspective, what we saw from the Steelers and just kind of how this feels like a slightly different sort of Steelers team. And I eat a lot of crow about the Russell Wilson decision and what he has given that offense, because this looks like a very well put together unit right now. Let me chat a little bit about the near future for the Giants,

what it might look like and how this regime might play into it. After that, was thrilled to chat with JTO Sullivan of the QB school about what we've seen from the first round rookie quarterback so far. Had a really good discussion about Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, some of the details and just the way those guys are being set up to succeed or fail in certain moments. Really enjoyed that discussion. Talked about Drake May, what we've seen from him in his first couple starts, and then dug into Bo Nix, man.

Bo Nix played pretty damn well on Sunday. And so the progression that we've seen from him from early in the season to what we saw against the Panthers, really, really good discussion with J.T. Also chatted about the Anthony Richardson News getting benched. We were already going to dig into that and upon further reviews. So fantastic conversation with both of those guys. Let's get to it. Joining us now, working off of about two hours of sleep after what was a sleepy performance

from the New York Giants. It is one of our Giants writers here at the athletic Dan Duggan. Dan, really appreciate you taking the time this morning. Nowhere I'd rather be after, you know, like I said, getting two hours sleep after a primetime game, hopping on a flight. So, yeah, I'm excited to be here. Here's how I want to get into this discussion about the Giants. I want to start kind of wide and use some of the specifics from last night to potentially backfill that idea.

Here's where I'm at with this team. It's not a disaster, right? It's not a walking embarrassment like it has been at times over the last three, four, five, pick your number of years. At the same time, they are not good at anything. There is nothing exceptional about them. There is nothing that stands out. The past rush in the right situations has been a really good unit this year.

Other than that, they are below average to bad at virtually everything else when it comes to being an NFL team. I don't really know what you do with that, considering this is year three of this regime. probably call it progress if you were trying to be generous, but I don't think it's nearly enough progress to justify sticking on this path. And I think last night gave us plenty of examples of kind of what that feels like. Yeah, that's the problem. I feel like we may even talk to us in the summer where it is it's year three. And I think this regime has tried to sell like a year one vibe where like we're starting over. It's like, but you're not. When you look at

that stuff that have been made, like you don't have a rookie quarterback. You know, you're not, you didn't strip it down. You, you know, you may. made the aggressive trade to get a guy like Brian Burns and gave up draft assets. So it's reasonable to expect in year three they'd be seeing results. Instead, we're sitting here in a very familiar spot, as your reference, is two and six. And I hate that the 17 games, not the midpoint anymore. But for all intents of purpose, the midpoint of the season, seventh time in the past eight years, they've been two and six or worse. So, I mean, again, very familiar for me, for the organization.

Can't even necessarily say for this regime because that's over like four head coaches and three GMs. They've all found themselves to the same spot. But yeah, no, I think that is the problem. It's like you want to at least be able to sell in year three. Like you'd really like to be a selling that we're ascending. Certainly can't sell that. You're really going backwards, which is the part that's just really tough to grapple with. I mean, they got the vote of confidence from John Marr last week.

Interesting timing, obviously coming up a 28 to 3 loss, which was like the nightmare with Saquan running all over him. That was sort of just a matter of circumstance. He was scheduled to speak basically at a documentary premiere about his father. life. So it'd been probably a worst look if he didn't speak at all. So he does give the vote of confidence. Use the word anticipate as far as offseason changes, which I think he's been around the block long enough to know. You don't really want to lock anything in with 10 games to go. And we've seen how bad things can spiral. But yeah, so that's where they're at. They want to

keep this group together. What you're basing that on is just hope and not wanting to pull the trigger quickly. Like, that's the one thing he's done a lot in the past. He doesn't want to do it. I don't know if that's the most compelling reason to stick with the regime. Like, hey, I fired the last one too quick, but like you have to evaluate this one. And, you know, there's no penalty for firing this one and hopefully getting a better one. But again, they seem committed to sticking with it. So, yeah, now you're just going to somehow see some results. And again, we're in year three and you're kind of going backwards.

So let's talk about some of the specifics of last night and how it plays into this. Because you're out without Andrew Thomas, which is worth acknowledging. Other than that, this is pretty much the team they wanted to come into the season. season with, right? Most of the rest of the team is healthy. And the first drive, the first couple drives, they're just getting gashed on the ground over and over and over again. They have the fourth worst EPA per rush in the league, and it's particularly bad on perimeter runs. And you saw that again last night. Anything to the outside, they're just getting crushed on. This season, they have the second worst EPA per rush in the NFL on perimeter runs. Only the Cowboys have been worse. The average

perimeter run against the Giants is essentially the average Jared Gough drop back by EPA. And so you're watching this happen. This is happening to the defense they wanted to be. It's not like this is some half-built unit that's really banged up. And I think that's kind of where I'm at with this team, is that like, this is who you wanted to be and these are still the results. And I just don't know what to make of that halfway through year three of a regime. No, and let's also not forget, I mean, Hard Knocks, the gift that keeps on giving to me on this beat, where we can reference back to conversations and moments from that that otherwise wouldn't been privy to when they hired Shane Bowen, the selling point was his work with the run defense in Tennessee.

It's been good every year. And there was like, I'm going to say a semi-sage scene where Brian Dable is like literally just ticking off his run defense stats to Joe Shane as if this was like the first time they've ever discussed this guy's resume. He's like, I'm going to hire this guy to fix our run defense. And here he comes. And yeah, they're worse than the league, I think, in yards per carry aloud. You get all the advanced metrics there. It's brutal. I mean, it's just bad.

And it's funny, the games that they've won, I would say. mostly because the opponents have lost their minds and not run the ball against them. Seattle had like seven handoffs in that game. Yeah, that's a Seattle problem. That's a consistent Seattle problem this year. But when you look at teams like Philly and now last night in Pittsburgh, you knew they were going to run the ball and the Giants knew they were going to run the ball and they were just helpless to stop it.

And like you said, it's not a situation. It's like, oh, well, they're missing so many guys. Kavon, Tivito is missing. You know, he's a decent edge run defender. That can't be the thing that breaks your run defense. And it isn't. I mean, they weren't good when he was in the lineup. But yeah, it's hard to explain when you have a guy like Dexter Lawrence who's like the best in the world what he does.

Bobby O'Caricay, I think he's viewed as like a solid middle linebacker. You feel like good about some individual pieces, but just collectively it's not very good. And your stats are about the edges doesn't surprise me though because, again, like Brian Burns and now with Zizzo Jolari, those guys get paid because they rush the pass. Exactly. Those are past rushers. When you try to square how you have a team with Dexter Lawrence getting run on like this, well, last night is the example. And I think that some of the tackling on the perimeter from the DBs is. wanting. And I think overall, what the secondary feels like is a little bit wanting. And I want to

talk about Deonté Banks specifically and just what even happened last night, because this is now becoming a consistent issue with this team, where we have these guys that were drafted in the first round, and they have not played up to that status. Evan Neal can't even get on the field at this point. And Kavon Tibido, even though this year has been better, has not been sort of the consistent presence over the first two years of his career that I think they probably wanted. And now we have this weird stuff going on with banks. Just tell me or explain to me what you gathered about what was going on with him yesterday because he played like less than half the snaps. Yeah. Well, so first, an important correction. Evan Neal got on the field for his first snap of

the season last night. Yay. It was the swinging gate two point conversion play. So that is the one that he has in the books for this year, which maybe sums up, you know, a lot about his tenure here. But no, on a more serious note and more consequential note, whereas they've kind of like just Evans Neal's out of sight, out of mind. They're signing Chris Hubbard off the 49ers practice squad. That's crazy. That's tackling, putting him and starting there against Alex Hysmith and saying, hey, you're one-on-one, knock yourself out.

And Evan Neal's just, you know, sitting here, you know, taking up a roster spot. But again, to your question about Banks. So it's complicated because his rookie year, he looked like a typical, I would say, first round rookie. He had good flashes and tough games. But you felt good. You felt good. and the opponent's number ones.

So he's, you know, eased into it a little bit. But now this year, you know, they didn't bring him to Rory Jackson back until, like, break glass in August with, like, well, our cornerback depth's really bad. Let's bring this guy back who we want to know part of for six months. But he hasn't even been a matter. He's been banged up. So, like, because they said, Deonté Banks, he's going to be our number one corner. There was really no consequential additions through the draft.

I mean, they got Drew Phillips, who's been a really good nickel corner, but that doesn't do Deonté Banks at all. And no veterans of any, you know, significance brought in. And so all the eggs were kind of put in the basket, like Deonté Banks is going to make this year to leave. And he hasn't made it. But it's, I mean, he's come out of the case. And he follows guys. So it's like, oh, you go from Justin Jefferson to C.D. Lamb to D.K. Metcalf.

Like, it's going to be hard for any second year corner to thrive in that environment. But so, like, you know, giving up a touchdown pass to C.D. Lamb, there's no shame in that. The problem is on that play. He didn't hustle after CedLAM got by him. And his defensive backs coach, Jerome Henderson called him out. You know, basically just said it. You basically quit on the play. I didn't like it.

So that's in week four. Now we can fast forward to the Eagles game. When Jalen Hertz, I'm sure you've seen the play where he scrambles. And Deonti Banks just, I don't even understand what's going through his head. He just jogged. He let up, let Hertz get to the edge. And they picked up a first down, a third down scramble. And the worst part about that play is he jogged directly to Jerome Henderson on the sideline again.

And Henderson was losing his mind. But the easiest coaching decision in the world right there's just, he's on the sideline. Just keep him there. Like bench him. They didn't. They let it go. So then it was kind of this inflection point last week. Like how are they going to handle this?

And Brian Dable said really didn't condemn it even publicly. There was no discipline. There was no fine. There was no benching. They kind of trusted that like, oh, the leaders are going to talk to him and straighten this guy out. Yeah,

it'll work itself out. And I understand that, right? You're hoping you can bet on your locker room to an extent. But then we get to last night. Yeah, it was strike two, though. And so then you get to last night. And I watched every play back. There was not any egregious lack of effort.

I mean, he missed the tackle. Renej Harris hurtled him like, hey, that happens. He had a bad effort on a George Pickens, but again, it was a missed tackle. It wasn't like he didn't try. And then the funny part is apparently the final straw was that touchdown that got negated to Pickens where he made a good play. Like, I mean, it was weird how Pickens didn't get his foot down, but Banks is the one

who pushed him and made it that he couldn't get it down easily. And that was his last play of the game. So there's more to this, like obviously, you know, being around, I know that. And now my job as reporters to get to what the bottom of it is. I just don't buy that, oh, he just didn't play well enough on that drive. If the Giants were going to start benching guys for missing tackles, back to your previous question, they'd have a four guys on defense most games. So that can't be the reason.

There's obviously more to it. I personally think Dable tried to, you know, not do anything, meet out any punishment. The guy didn't respond. So now it's like he's flailing, oh, like get him out of there. And it's very reactionary. And I think that's sort of been something that's happened a lot with this regime in different aspects. And I think it crystallized here with banks because, I mean, he didn't play great. great for the 27 snaps or whatever it was, but nothing in last night's game dictated to benching.

Benching would have been dictated by the gross lack of hustle the previous week. I think that this is, Deonti Banks not playing up to the level you'd hope a first round pick does and getting benched. It's not the reason the giants are bad. But to me, it is indicative of some of the issues this regime has had, where you have these high level investments that haven't really panned out. And overall, like you said, it's reactionary. There's a lot of volatility to, I think, the decision.

making that has been made over the last couple years, and I think that creeps in. You got Dexter Lawrence fighting with defensive players on the sideline. It just all feels a little bit unsettled. And I think that has been one of the consistent issues we've seen over the last couple years when things haven't been going well. It was all unicorns and rainbows in 2022. It has not been that over the last couple seasons. And then you go to the offensive side of the ball, and I think that some of that volatility

extends to a lot of the pre-snap operation stuff last night. So many pre-snap penalties. They get a delay a game and then another, I think it was an illegal shift than a delay a game, puts them in like a second and 16, and then they take a sack and the drive is over. They take two sacks in what should be field goal range to knock them out of it. And I think the offense, very similar to the conversation we had at the top, it's not a disaster, right? Like you're moving the ball decently well against the Steelers. You get the chunk play to Darius Slayton, you get a couple chunk runs, but then you take those two sacks. Then you fail to help on T.J. Y on the last play of the game.

There's just consistent frustration and a very defined ceiling to who they can be, even in year three with most of this team healthy. And that leaves me in a place where I'm just not sure what to do with this. No, I mean, it's, it's bad. It's really bad because, I mean, listen, again, I've covered a lot of bad seasons. The 2021 Giants, they were starting Jake Fromm and Mike Glennon at the end of that season. Maybe you've blocked it out. I can't. I have to endure it.

I have certainly blocked it out, yes. So that team that started those guys for six games, because, Daniel Jones at the neck injury, they average more points per game than the current 2024 Giants with a healthy Daniel Jones on his $160 million contract with Malik neighbors, obviously missed two games, but for the most part healthy, Andrew Thomas now has only missed two games. So like these star players, or at least the high profile players in Jones's case, have been in the lineup and they're averaging like 14 and change a game, 31st in the league. And I'm sure now the two is back, the dolphins are about to lead fraudulent.

So they'll be in the basement. But the fact I compare it to the Jake from Mike Lennon days and this offense is work. And that was with, that wasn't even Jason Garrett by that point. That was Freddie Kitchens interim OC under Joe judge. And now this is the brain trust of Brian Dable and Mike Kafka. And they can't produce a more productive offense. That's the part that it's just baffling. It's like there's like a force field around the end zone.

Because like you said, they moved the ball at times, didn't score it all in the red zone, had those self-inflicted wounds where either you knock yourself out of, you know, getting a touch now you got to settle for a field goal because you have, you know, third and goal from the 20. Or like you said, the two sacks that just knocked them out of field range. they just have so many plays like that week in and we go. It's funny because the pre-snap stuff hasn't been an issue. They went to Seattle, won that game, had like no pre-snap issues.

And then you go to Pittsburgh, obviously another tough environment, but I don't think any tougher than Seattle. And it's like they can't even line up right. So it's just what losing teams do. It doesn't always take the same form, but the consistent form is just you find a way to lose games. And that's what this team has, you know, showed up proclivity to do here. And, you know, the game might have been closer if you don't get the weird penalty on

the manhirts touchdown. There should have been a touchdown. That's not a penalty. And then Malik neighbors can't get his feet in balance. But you can do the same thing on the other side. Pickin should have scored on that play. There was a touchdown wiped off for the Steelers. This was still a close game for the most part all the way through. And then these tiny little mistakes start adding up. I want to talk about the Steelers a little bit because we have not talked about the Steelers on the show and they won the game in convincing fashion last night. So as somebody who watched this team up close last night, even if you're not somebody that's around them all the time, what were your impressions of where the Steelers team

sits right now with Russell Wilson. Yeah, I mean, I'll probably look at it from a giant's tinted lens. So obviously that's how I do it. But I look at it from this aspect, Russell Wilson visited the New York Giants in March before he went to Pittsburgh. And the reason why he continued on his little free agent tour is they said you would come in here to be Daniel Jones's backup. I can understand why Russell Wilson was not particularly interested in that.

Obviously landed in a much better situation, got the starting job, you know, even with the injury, that kind of controversial decision if you want to call it, It seemed like the right call by Mike Tom. That's why I'm well compensated. Like, yeah, it looks pretty good. I mean, because, you know, like I didn't watch a ton of Russell Wilson in Denver last year, but obviously from afar, it didn't seem like he still had, you know, that form that was, you know, when he was prime in Seattle, the way he was placing some of those balls last night, it looked very familiar.

Like, I mean, the one, the pickings on the corner row. I mean, you couldn't have placed that ball any better. You know, that's what he does, those deep balls of his strength. So he looks, he looks very good. You know, again, I think they were smart. You know, like Mike Tomlin's a good coach. They ran the ball against the team with the bad run defense. I know that's what they wanted to anyways,

but they didn't try and reinvent the wheel. I think Wilson only had like 28 attempts because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. They're kind of running down their throat. No, so I think, obviously, he adds, you know, an element to that offense. I think they should definitely trade for wide receiver. I mean, I know it was all that Cooper Cup stuff. The guy that was torturing him last night, Darius Slaten,

if he's available for like a fifth or six-round pick and on Pittsburgh, you can do a lot worse. Yeah, and they just got to, up close and personal look last night. I actually kind of like that as just like another. I mean, they have a big outside perimeter guy in Pickens, but I think adding a little bit of speed, I don't hate that at all. I will say right now, I was dead wrong about the move to Russell Wilson. And my response to it is that I was just unmoved by it. I was just like, okay, I mean, if this is what you guys want to do, this is what you want to do. I had 2023 Russell Wilson in my mind when I was

conceiving of it that way. And Russell Wilson at his best is this guy where you're just getting moonball after Moonball down the sideline. Last year in Denver, Russell Wilson finished dead last in the NFL in the percentage of his throws that went to the sticks. Dead last. He averaged 4.5 air yards per completion, which was seventh from the bottom in the entire league. This was not down the field aggressive Russell Wilson by the time his tenure ended in Denver.

And so when I was looking at this team, I was like, all right, if you're going to be less explosive because Russell Wilson can't be a creator for you, and he's not going to be aggressive. You're going to have two quarterbacks who you're not going to necessarily find explosives in the passing game. Why not go with the younger guy who's a little bit more compelling? And I think I was a little bit blinded by what was more interesting to me rather than what was more, what was better for this version of the Steelers. And we've gotten a very different version of Russell Wilson this year. Last year was 4.5 air yards per completion. This year, it's 8.3 over the first two weeks, which is the fourth highest in the league over those first two starts.

And it's funny because Justin Fields was actually the guy who was throwing the ball, short of the sticks at about the same rate Russell Wilson was last year. So if they're going to get this where they're using tons of play action and they are, he's used it on like 36% of his dropbacks and half of his early down dropbacks, if this is going to be play action shots with Russell Wilson to guys like George Pickens, giving guys shots down the field, making us more explosive, and the run game is going to figure itself out. And it's been great over the last two weeks after being really kind of bad over the first six weeks.

This version of the Steelers offense with what we know the Steelers' defenses, color me intrigued. I am more interested in what this team is at this moment than I think I have been in each of the last few years because they have a real offensive coordinator. Pickens is emerging. This is reasonable quarterback play, like fairly exciting quarterback play in certain moments. And when you pair that with what we know the defense is, I'm interested to see where this team can take it compared to what we've seen over the last couple of years.

No, no. I mean, like I was mainly only invested in the Steelers Quarterback. quarterback situation because I have Justin Fields in fantasy. I was like, God. I need him to play 50% of the snaps for fourth round pick reasons. So we're on the same page here. This motivation by like, God, that rushing touch on every week was clutch. But no, I mean, you obviously, again, I didn't watch a ton of their games.

But seeing how Wilson operates the office and knowing what Justin Fields is, there's certainly obviously just a different element. You obviously have the stats on the downfield stuff. But even just like the way the play action feels explosive, you know, on those bootlegs where he's hitting, you know, that tight end there for like a 29-yard game, where it's just like he's he's he's really good at that and it feels like they have it really clicking like I saw some of the highlights from the previous week like that's that seems like it's in his wheelhouse and it seems like time in their wheelhouse that's a good marriage and then again you mean we didn't

talk about the defense because I think it's just like understood that it's just such a it's such a really good unit I'm worried about some of the non-joie porter make if it's Patrick elements of the secondary the way that Dante Jackson is playing right now I think that's probably where my concerns would lie but overall I just have a lot of inherent faith in what that unit is and what Terrell Austin and Mike Tomlin have been able to do over the last however many years. That's one of those. We're like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. You get the offense right with Wilson, with Arthur Smith.

And I think that this can be a team that has a chance to make a little bit more noise when we get deep into the season. A little bit more legitimate noise, right? Not like black magic Mike Tomlin wizardry noise, stuff that actually feels legit. And you feel like a team that doesn't have to luck into anything. that's where this Steelers team sits in my mind right now. Yeah, and I mean, they make a big special teams play every week. I mean, that return changed the game, and that's something that travels or that's the next factor that, you know,

most teams don't have and they seem to, you know, genuinely have it. It's funny. You're talking about Dexter Lawrence to be mad at teammates yesterday. He should be most mad at Daniel Jones because he probably just, like, gave T.J. Watt the leg up in the defensive player of the year, but not shifting that. I saw the clip on Manning, Casper. Eli Manning, I mean, this is just salt in the moon for Giants fans,

like, you know, days of your, much they must miss him. He's saying, what are they doing? They got to shift the tight end to the right side. They got to shift them. And it was just like a brain fart by Daniel Jones. He's, you know, rattled in the moment and focused on the coverages, forgets to shift the tight end. So you give T.J. Watt that one little crease because every other play, he was getting chipped. He was getting doubled. They messed that one playoff, obviously in a crucial spot. He gets the strip sack. I think he got two sacks last night. So it's funny because it's like, you know, Dexton Lawrence is going to fight an uphill battle to a defensive player of the year as a nose tackle as a guy on a bad team.

but he had like a pretty big lead there with the sacks and then you let T.J. Watt close the gap and have a big kind of signature play like that to close that one out. I'm also really impressed by the Bastille was doing this with a banked-up offensive line. James Daniels is out for the season right now. Troy Fontonu is going to be out for most of the season. That's the only reason Broderick Jones is playing right now, probably at right tackle, was because Fontonoo is hurt.

And Zach Frazier, who had been really good for them as a rookie center, was also out last night. So them doing all of this while having to deal with a bunch of injuries up front, I think is really impressive. again, I'm definitely intrigued by where this offense is. Before we get out of here, very quickly, I think you could spin the giant situation into a mild positive, and I'm going to do it this way.

You go into next off-season. If Andrew Thomas can stay healthy, which, please God, this is a real bummer, right? If Thomas left tackle, you have a true wide receiver won in Malik neighbors, like a special talent. You have a defensive player of the year caliber option in the middle of your defense, and you have a second-pass rusher in Brian Burns. If you move on from Daniel Jones this off-season,

which I think they will. They will have like $67 million in cap space. This is not a bad situation. This is something to start with. My question to you is, do you think this regime gets a chance to use some of those resources and figure out what the soft pivot into the next era of this team looks like? Or do you think that someone else is coming in from the outside

to hit their reset button and start with that core of pieces? Well, it's funny because as you're going through that, that sounded like what Joe Shane's pitch must be to John Marr in the office. like, hey, listen, John, no, it's not great right now, but everything you outlined there. And listen, this rookie draft. But the problem is, all you did to do that was you drafted Malik Neighbors because you had the sixth overall pick this year. And then you spent a ton to go get Brian Byrne. The other two parts of that, those guys were already here before you got here.

No, trust me. Very fair point. And, you know, we talked about as first year draft classes were filled with more misses than hits. But I do think you can sell also this class because beyond neighbors. Like I said, Drew Phillips has looked good. I mean, Tyler Newman, he's a second round pick. He's playing every snap at safety, not that he's been like some game-changing player. Tyrone Tracy, they're over through to find a fifth round running back.

Everyone else does it. You know, the only time they have had a good running back is when they use the number two pick on one. So, you know, there's things to sell there. I think you're right. I absolutely think you're right about that. I'm probably spinning. That's enough, you know, those are reasons for optimism. And again, and that's where John Mara, his inclination is not to blow it up again.

Like, you know, Joe Shane is a young man. Brian Davel's pretty young. Like in his dream world, this is going to be his George Young and Bill Parcells, and they're going to be there for a decade or so. Now, obviously, that's not going to happen if they continue to lose. But where I think it gets sticky a little bit, you know, we're talking about year three here. They're going to have to go get a quarterback in the draft. That's the problem.

You're going to let this group make that decision now heading into year four? The two-year commitment then, because you can't let them go get their guy, let Brian Davel do his, you know, whatever, Josh. Josh Allen, voodoo on this guy. And then if it doesn't go well in year one, then you're going to kick him out of the door and start over. It's really tough. You really need to know, you're committing to what, you know, because let's be honest, even if you drop a rookie quarterback in, maybe it's CJ Stroud, maybe it's Jaden Daniels. It probably won't be though.

So year one probably won't be great, but that's really year four we're talking about. So you have to have a tremendous amount of faith in this regime. So that's why I do think to your question of like, will it be a new, like a new regime coming in to reset it? Again, I don't think John Marr wants that, but it's tough to give the vote of comments on week seven. because there's still so much runway here. We've seen some stuff going on that can blow up. Again, I've covered enough of these seasons to know it just starts with little cracks. So I think it's being incumbent on Brian Dable to do whatever he needs to do to just keep the train on the tracks.

Like losses like last night, John Merrick and lived with. It was competitive. You know, it wasn't an embarrassment. But if you have too many losses like that Eagles game and then you start having off the field or locker room stuff, that's where it gets tougher to keep it together. So I think that they'll be back because that's what the owner wants, but the owner has proven that he will change his mind if things start going in the wrong direction. But then to your overall point, yes, there are definitely things, whether it's Joe Shane saying I can

pick up on what I've already built or someone new coming in. You're not inheriting the worst situation in the world for sure because, I mean, it's really just going to find that quarterback, which obviously much easier said than done. I think the quarterback time line and the quarterback decision and who gets to make it, I think that's the best point you could possibly make about the big, big decision that is going to be looming for John Mara and for the people in charge of this organization. Dan Duggan, always great to chat with you, my friend. Sincerely appreciate the time, especially coming off of the night you had.

We'll talk to you very soon. All right, thanks, man. All right, we're going to get to JTO Sullivan and our conversation about the first round rookie quarterbacks. Before that, though, we're going to take a quick break. Joining us now to dig into the year one quarterbacks, the early drafted year one quarterbacks. We're not going to talk about Spencer Rattler on this show. Just want people to know that going in. It is somebody who does fantastic work in this space specifically.

It's JTO Sullivan of the Keebee School. Really appreciate the time, man. Very excited to do this with you. Yeah, man. a lot of young quarterbacks playing and playing pretty well. So I'm excited to dive into it. Let's go in order that these guys were drafted. I think that's just the easiest way to do it is just to start with Caleb Williams and

move on down the draft order. And I'm going to try to start this on a positive note because after the last 48 hours, I think it's kind of hard to do that based on what Chicago's offense looked like. But let's start with what you've seen that you've liked from Caleb Williams so far this year because it feels like you've rewatched every single one of his games. Yeah, I feel like we, my like community of people really are tethered to this success of the Chicago quarterback position. So I appreciate that support from there. But the, I'm excited. I mean, I, um, uh, I think that there's a lot to be excited about. I, I, you know, I'm at a privileged spot

where I don't necessarily, uh, am as emotionally tethered to the most recent outcome as probably other people are to with his performances. Consider yourself lucky, my friend. So in that regard, up until that point, I thought he had been progressing really nicely and really with a lot of evidence. Thought he's proven that he can come in, kind of play within structure, beyond time. I think maybe we've even seen like the dark side of that kind of coin element of it to be almost too, you know, forced in that regard. I think we've seen him get out, create a little bit with his feet. I think we still haven't seen like the crazy explosive big plays that I think many of us expect from him to make at some point when he's able to extend and create with his arm. So those parts of it, I would say the part that is frustrating for me with his game is that I just don't, it doesn't look like he's playing at his, what I consider like his super strengths.

Like it feels like he's kind of been put in like a box with these kind of guardrails. and said, hey, don't lose us these games, don't turn the ball over. And I think you can win, certainly win games like that. But I don't know if he's ever going to be the best version of himself until he's able to kind of find what that looks like in the league. And up until this point, I don't think we've seen that consistently. I think there have been flashes of it. But it doesn't look like he's as comfortable as I would hope that he would be working

towards. That play he made late in the game to Keenan Allen, where he's extending outside of the pocket. He's throwing the ball back across his body. those are the types of plays we just haven't seen a ton of, and you kind of thought you'd see more of them. And I think part of the box that you're talking about, the box that feels a little bit rigid, I think he might be putting himself in that box a little bit too. I think he wants to be known as somebody who operates from the pocket, who's not trying to create out a structure. I mean, I think the broadcast alluded to that in the conversation they had with him going into the game.

And it almost feels like it's led to him playing a little bit tighter than you want to see him play. And I think that that leads to some of the frustrations when you're watching how herky jerky this offense can feel. Yeah, I mean, I would probably frame it as like very rigid in his regard where I think he's at his best in a more loose format. And I think that there's some, I think that there's an element of being smart about it too where that defense is so good that you're going to be in a lot of games. Totally. To play within the structure of it up until you have to go create can be another way to approach it. But even the play, you know, to the point that you're alluding to where he's coming back, creating, extending to the right, that's not like a dynamic crazy arm throw. You know, like we, there are just, they're coming.

And when they come, you want them to just come in waves and waves and waves. But I do feel like for whatever reason, whether it's him saying, I'm not going to be a runner or whatever, or I'm not going to create or I'm going to do this within structure. I think that when you overlay Caleb playing like that with just kind of where they are with their personnel, their offenses, how they're doing things schematically. It just, it hasn't been easy. And so if you want to see some explosiveness early in the game, let's let him loose. I mean, he gets drafted one overall for a reason. And the reasons that I think in my mind, they just haven't allowed him or he hasn't

allowed himself to play like that early in games. Some of the strengths when you just watch some of the pocket movement, the base he plays with from the pocket, like a lot of the nuts and bolts of how he's playing the position. I think are really encouraging, and I think that there are things that you can build on. But part of the issue with how he's trying to hang in the pocket is that I think that decision making at times has just been a little bit labored. It's just coming a little bit slower than you want it to. And I don't want this to be an entire show where we're comparing and contrasting these guys. But I think there are going to be moments where it's useful. And I watch Jaden Daniels and he's playing so fast. He's playing so

fast. His decisions to take off and scramble, he's making them decisively. Where he's going with the ball, he's making them decisively. And I think you can contrast that with even when Jaden was playing well. I was watching the video you did about the Carolina game. There are just moments where you want him to be moving through things a tiny tick faster. And I think there are reasons he's not been able to do that so far. And we can dig into some of it. But I think that's another area where some of those frustrations have crept up a little bit.

Yeah, I don't think you're probably doing yourself any favors by comparing them straight up like that. But yeah, you're absolutely right. When you turn on those, when you put them side by side and you can watch the film kind of interwoven like that. Which you just did for three and a half hours yesterday. Yes, exactly. So I'm coming out of it. But I will say that I think you're absolutely spot on. I think Jaden is playing like that.

And I think you can also have to acknowledge the fact that Cliff is doing a great job, Colin plays for the first guy to be open and be open a lot. And if he's not open, it sure looks like Jaden is receiving some sort of like positive affirmation to say, hey, get out of there, go run, go create, lean into that. right now. And that part of it seems like it's been easier for him. And then you overlay some really impressive throws down the field, all the things that he's able to do with his deep ball accuracy, and things just feel more open. And so it's that combination, I think, of scheme, first read, being open, and those things that we alluded to that, I feel like our fair criticisms of Caleb Williams

and how that offense is going. I don't think that's like anything like hot takey to say that he's not processing quite as fast as it looks like. But I also think that the way he plays, kind of his like fundamental base solid in the ground kind of going, da-da, is a little bit less rhythmical than the way Jayden kind of does it, where it's a little bit more fluid, a little bit more kind of like one, two, boom,

I'm out of there as opposed to, you know, everything is kind of solid and like that. And then there have certainly been plays where he's been a statue. Caleb Williams has been a statue in the pocket where in the past you would have said, hey, you got to go, you got to go create. And so he's done the statue one. He's also done the ones where he's turned into like spinning and spinning in circles and sliding and not getting first downs where you're just like, hey, that's not good enough.

Yeah. So it can be all the above there. I'm 100% with you on that. The fact that he does look a little bit robotic in the pocket is so weird when you consider what watching him in college felt like where it was the opposite of robotic. It all felt so smooth. It felt like he had such good instincts and feel. and I think that we haven't necessarily seen that.

And I think there are potential explanations for why we haven't seen that. Again, we're not comparing and contrasting, but there are useful data points here. I think a lot of people are going to look at situation, quote unquote, and look at Keenan Allen, DJ Moore, Roe Madunes, you got all these guys. Like, you've thrown him into such a good spot. If you look at the details of what the bear's offense looks like compared to what Washington's offense looks like, I think that consistently Washington has done such a good job with offensive design, what they're asking of the quarterback, everything about it.

And the bears, I think, have been lacking in a ton of those areas. And the spot that I think is most important, you're the first person I've seen to express frustration with this in the same way that I've had frustration with this. So many people, I think, are going to look at all of the gesturing at the line of scrimmage and all of the checking, all the things they're putting on him. And they're going to say, more autonomy for quarterback equals good. And I understand that. But I think that so much of what they're putting on him,

My question is, what are you giving up by asking him to do that right now? And to what end is this stuff happening? Because I think you can make a solid argument in this moment that all of that pre-snap stuff, all of that control, all of the checking that they're doing is not necessarily an additive piece for the offense or an additive piece for where he is in his development. Yes. I mean, I don't know what I don't, I get frustrated watching it. I'll be honest with you.

I totally agree with everything you just said there. And again, I'm, again, I'm not in the building. I haven't necessarily inquired with anyone that might know, but I don't even know what they're doing. Are they, is he declaring who the mic is every single play? Is he calling plays? Are they checking? Are they auditing?

Is it like a kill can system? Whatever it looks like, it just looks like a lot. And it looks borderline unnecessary a few times, many times. I understand the optics of, oh, he's in control. Look at the control at the line of scrimmage. And I think I feel guilty of that. early on just kind of being surprised or shocked like, wow, he's really doing a lot at the line of scrimmage.

Well, I think now he, why is he doing that much? Well, what is it even helping? Have we seen it benefit in any way? I don't know if I can say that I have. If anything, it looks like it's slowing us down and slowing down the offense, the tempo, how he's playing, the comfort level. You know, are we calling multiple plays every single time? You tell me we don't have any sort of like run it, run plays or run it plays

that are good versus anything, it just seems like it's unnecessarily difficult. And you just add that as another variable into why that unit probably is not plain as well as many people thought. Now, I would also add that the way you talk about the personnel as a such great positive thing, I probably am not that far along with at least how they're using them up until this point. And so that part of it. And I'm with you on that. And I think that that framing of it is probably wrong. And that's why I want to talk about that because I think on a baseline level, if you just look at the

names on paper, you think, oh, they should be absolutely cooking with this group. And I don't think he's necessarily set up for success in the same way that the names on the depth chart would lead you to belief. I absolutely agree. You know, I get a lot of heat in that community for how I talk about the perimeter unit and have for the last few years. But I think that there are some guys that have some very good unique talents. I don't think of them as necessarily like elite perimeter weapons as opposed to other guys.

that you would put at the top of the tier at really any position. But then how they use them has been interesting as well as far as who's on the field, when, personnel, how they're using them, who does what route, who's pushing the ball down the field, who's running the double moves, those types of things that just felt disconnected, disjointed, almost like we're just kind of like meeting each other, trying to figure out what the hell we're going to do. And we've got, you know, guys that are been in the league for a long time that have kind of really good things that they do that maybe aren't as good as they were in the past when

we're talking about Keenan Allen. separation, what type of route that we're doing, and then just asking, you know, those other guys to really not contribute yet. I think the Roma Dunes, I think to me is, I thought for sure, coming out of the buy, he was going to be a bigger part of many of the personnel's, and it just looks like it's the same. And so that part to me is just ridiculously frustrating. You see other guys in the draft class come out and make significant impacts onto offense immediately at the wide receiver position. And for whatever reason, it doesn't. look like he's getting those opportunities. Maybe it's something internal, like he can't handle the

volume or he can't get lined up. I doubt that. I mean, whatever it is, it's got to be something because it doesn't make sense to me why he's not out there more. Based on everything I've ever heard about him, I doubt that that's true. I think probably the biggest barrier here, and you've alluded to this, he should be out there in 12 personnel. He's one of the best 11 players on the field. And I think that when you have a future Hall of Famer, who maybe isn't necessarily the most dynamic player or the same sort of dynamic player he used to be, there's probably some things that you have to sort through dynamics-wise in how often that guy's going to be on the field. But right now, I think that it's hard to argue that number 10 isn't one, excuse me, number 15 isn't one of your best 11 guys,

no matter what personnel you're trotting out there. And then the usage of them is consistently frustrating. Like, if you look at the roles for these guys, Rome is your best option as like a vertical on-the-ball ex-receiver. Because as much as we want to paint DJ Moore as that guy, he's not that guy. He struggles when he's pressed. He's never been that sort of player. He's somebody when you get the ball in his hands, he can be dynamic. But I just think that how often they're miscast, even with an individual plays, takes away from what this unit should be when you combine all of the skill sets. Because I think the skill sets are specific and distinct enough, where it shouldn't be that hard to play all these guys together in the correct way. Yes. Yes. I think we're, I

Exactly on the same page. To me, I think of Rome as a true X. To me, I think of DJ Moore as a true Z flanker, kind of like almost similar to Debo-ish, as far as like unique talents, as far as very talented with the ball in his hand. Very few people would make that comparison. But I actually think that's closer to correct than what they were using him as in the first five weeks of the season. I just don't think of him.

I think people think of him as a true, like, top-tier wide receiver one. And how they paid him, you know, I think that there's an argument to make sense that that's how they view him also. But when you turn on the film, I don't see defenses rotating towards him. I don't see him running a complete, robust route tree where he's killing people down the field outside the numbers. He's killing people one-on-one. He's consistently winning. He's doing every single route that you could possibly do. I just don't.

I see him great with the ball in his hands running away from people. So let's create opportunities for that consistently. Let's not force feed him stop routes outside the numbers. No, let's not, you know, go quarters without getting him touches with capacities to run away from people. Let's not give a duncee the every single around or jet sweep. You know, just those types of usage things to me are bizarre and will never make sense to me. It has to be something where, you know, I'm not a former tight ends coach,

but it feels like we're force feeding certain tight end heavy packages when our best people might not be that all the time. And so how they use those guys, I think, is rippling out to the perimeter. And so it just becomes harder and harder to make sense of what they're doing. And then we haven't even talked about the state of the offensive line yet. And I think an important thing to do here is to not complain about personnel. There are a lot of bad offensive lines in the NFL that don't feel as bad as the bears are at their worst moments. I think the more important point to make here is that when you watch the Bears' offense,

quarterback included. All of these guys feel like lesser versions of the players they should be, and that extends to the offensive line. The plans are bad. The details are bad. You're just not setting things up to make the game easier on the 11 guys you have on offense. And I think that the contrast of that is particularly stark when you watch them play against Washington and what Washington's offense feels like down in and down out right now. Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is, is whatever iteration of the offensive line they've tried to work, it seemingly hasn't. And you almost kind of like scratch your head about like, I get it.

There are not a whole lot of offensive linemen walking on the street that you're going to be able to plug and play in this type of situation. But the lack of development, the lack of cohesiveness. You know, it's one thing to be overwhelmed at one position or to have injuries hit you at one position. But when it's multiple positions and it's really consistently the interior part of the line, it's just very hard to play quarterback when you're in a title wave consistently. There's just nothing you can do as far as feeling comfortable. And then you overlay that into missed assignments in the run game, pass protection errors,

you know, someone's losing one-on-one consistently. And it just is another variable on why this unit continues to struggle. start slow and not be as productive as they probably should be. The play where DeAndre Swift doesn't block Bobby Wagner on the throw, that's a beautiful throw by Caleb Williams to hit DJ Moore, I don't think I've ever heard you more frustrated while watching an NFL game than you were when he missed that block. And that's just the type of shit that comes up over and over and over again. And this is going to sound like excuse making for people that think that this is just an all

out defense of Caleb Williams. But I just think that the context of this stuff is extremely important. And we don't talk or think about quarterback context enough when we're evaluating why these guys are the way that they are. That throw was ridiculous. And that miss block, bro, is bananas. I don't. I don't pretend to understand. I don't really understand what's going on with the running back position about the usage.

Who's in there when they're not in there? I think Roshan is supposed to be a better pass protector. And then he got dog walked out of play in this game where he just got driven right back into him. So I think they're struggling to find answers. what I know is that Diadre Swift is not the answer in past protection. I mean, I just don't know if I've ever seen someone so obviously have someone in past protection and then decide to go run around. I'm good. I get it like sometimes you might be confused.

Is he pressuring? Is he coming up to cover me? But then to make the decision to go into a checkdown and then to throw up the audacity to throw up a mailbox like your wide ass open while your guy is hitting the quarterback in the face after a ridiculous throw. It was just too much for me. I would have, I get it that that is a very kind of underserved, under, under not well understood element of the passing game, the running back pass protection.

And it's the main reason why many guys fail in the league, in my opinion, because most guys who come into the league to run can run. Like there's not a whole lot of things as far as, hey, you know, I like to say like run through common color or you got to know where your aiming points are, what your alignment are doing,

all that stuff matters. But almost everybody can run. It's the part, can we trust. you to protect the franchise. And you obviously can't because our quarterback just got drilled in the mouth and you didn't even know it. You thought you were wide open.

So those types of reps to me are just, they're tough to come back from. They're tough to make sense of. There's no way you can go in the meeting room and feel confident and trust your teammates when stuff like that has happened. And there's just so much of that. There's so much of where the details are eroded to a point where it's hard to feel confident in the plan and guy's ability to execute that plan. And again, this is not to say that Caleb Williams is without blame.

He was bad on Sunday. He was just bad for a good majority of that game. That thrower he airmails it over Keenan Allen's head, deciding not to throw whatever that screen is, the swing screen to the right where he decides to take the one-on-one go ball to Keenan Allen, the spin in the pocket that you talked about. He looked unsettled and was a negative for the offense consistently throughout that game, but so was everything else.

And I think trying to take it all in totality is just really important when you're trying to evaluate where these guys are at and why they're at that point. And I think it's useful sometimes to talk about, okay, smart guys, what can we do to help that? You know, if we had anything to do with that unit. And I think when you overlay it with watching Cliff and Company on the other side, yes, sir. Perfect example of, hey, let's get somebody comfortable.

Let's be creative with how we're using these screens. Let's get easy completions. Let's have the first read be open and consistently open. Let's encourage our quarterback to use his feet and protect himself. And those types of things that I just feel like, man, you just, the model is right there. And we just had to watch it in real time. And that has kind of overlaid the frustration for me. And I think that's exactly that that's the transition point here is that you watch them play and the details are so good.

And they're so good on so many different levels. You're that first little like wrap throw d'erts where they're getting that first option open. It's just like, oh, easy completion to start the game. honestly, one of the best calls of the entire game on Sunday was that screen that call back on the touchdown. And even the timing of calling that screen and just the way they came out in the third quarter, there's just so much to love about the offense. And I think that every single bit of the details being good leads to a level of confidence and assertiveness with the entire unit and especially the quarterback. And where everybody in the Chicago offense feels like there's a slightly diminished version of themselves,

everybody in the Washington offense feels like they're the best version of themselves. And I think so much of that goes down to how guys are being set up to succeed and what the details of the offense look like. And it's hard to find a better unit in that regard right now than what Washington is doing. Yeah, I mean, I really love what Cliff is doing. One of my interesting things that I was just naturally curious about coming into the season is to kind of see what Cliff, you know, 2.0, 3.0 looks like coming back into the league. And I really think you can see the evidence of him taking some of the best elements of modern college football, like some of the screen game elements.

On balanced offensive lines. Yeah, like really scheming things. That you just, you know, that you don't see everywhere and to appreciate that in real time to help a young quarterback. You know, Cliff's always going to have the quarterback-centric perspective, but to make it even easier with those types of things. And the other part that I think you have to mention with Washington is they've got some pretty good dudes up front. Like I can't think of the dude's name. Sam Cosme is distracting. He's been so good this year that he is actively distracting, where I'm trying to watch the

quarterback and I just keep coming back to 76 over and over and over again. And that's a perfect example because this is a guy he got paid this off season. I think some people are like, huh, all right. I guess you can pay that guy. And then the way that they've weaponized him within this offense because of the movement skills that he has, I think that's a perfect example of this being a unit that's consistently lifting these guys, turning somebody with talent into a star player in a way that we might not have expected. Yeah, he's, he's, he to, I totally agree with you where I have a

hard time not watching him every single play. And you know that saying something for an interior guy, for guard who I literally had no idea, well, who that was until I had started watching their film for Jane Daniels. And your eye just gravitates to him because he's mauling people. He's got elite effort. He's moving all over the place. He's pulling. He's dynamic in that regard. And it's not just Tim, it's really that whole unit taking on almost that personality being able to kind of let loose with those types of things violently downhill. And it's just fun to see them come together like this. And it's one of those things where I think the other part that I'm always a little bit nervous with is can they keep it going? You know, I think stuff in the past has been someone who's

gotten off to hot starts and then the league catches up with you a little bit. And so will they be able to kind of overcome that kind of November December ball that has been a lull in the past will be something we'll have to see. I think a lot of it, going back to his best moments in Arizona, and this is anecdotal, but it did feel like this, where they're living in a high variance world. A lot of downfield throws from Kyler, a lot of 50-50 balls, the details in what this looks like down in and down out and how easy it often feels because of that, I have a lot more faith in their ability to sustain that because of what it's rooted in than even some of the best flashes we saw from his first go-around. That's just me, though. No, I agree. I think the other things that are in,

that I've liked to see from Cliff is the ability. It seems like he's a lot more multiple. And maybe it's just, again, in my mind, thinking back to those days, but it felt very tennie personnel-wise. It felt open edges where now you see them using a bunch of different tight ends, a bunch of different flanks. You talk about the unbalance. You talk about those abilities to kind of have easy plays for the quarterback

where you can kind of, hey, hand the ball off. This is going to work. Hey, scream, throw it to this guy. It's going to work. Those types of things that I just think make the quarterback's job so much easier. that looks like Cliff is very intentional with creating that into the system. So let's now try to extricate if we can the ways they're setting up the quarterback to succeed and why the quarterback is well positioned to take advantage of that stuff.

What specific to Jaden's game in the way that he's playing do you think has allowed him to elevate a scheme that's putting him in positions to succeed? Well, I think he's probably an even better runner than people probably thought. I think that it's one of those things where, you know, if you are aware of him at Arizona State, you know, could certainly, it was a great athlete, had some dynamic moments. He goes on, has a great season at LSU. But it's one of those things at LSU. Sometimes those guys are like, is it just him playing with a bunch of top 10 dudes out there, which is also a thing. Yeah, those are like one 80 a game on slot fades.

It's like, it's hard to figure out exactly where the quarterback's rolling all of that comes in. But he's now been able to do that in the league. And the downfield accuracy is a real and the speed is real. And so when you overlay those skill sets together and it looks like he's comfortable with it, that's the other part that I think is sometimes you never know with guys coming into the league where, you know, how much of it is a, I'm going to be a pocket pass. I'm going to prove these guys wrong to. Now I'm going to lean into what I do.

And I'm going to have a system that allows me the runway to do what I do and do it at a high level right away from the jump. And that's the part that I think has been so impressive with Jaden and company is because he does throw it very well. He was in a very, what I would consider a collegiate, structured system with Brian Kelly and the expectations for the drops, the precision, the timing. And now you overlay that into kind of the Cliff 3.0, air raidy, a little bit more comprehensive, robust formations, run game, screen game, play action game. And now all of a sudden you have this really elite unit playing at a high level. Yeah, and I just, he played, there's such an assertiveness to the way that he's playing.

The decisions happen so quickly, and I'm 100% with you on the scrambling, like, how easy he makes it look and how devastating it feels when he's taken off on third and eight, you just can't account for that. Like, that's just an element to an offense that just takes it up a notch in ways that very few guys can. And then you have plays that are schemed up for him. Like, that first drive coming out of halftime, they have a screen for a chunk, and then they have that beautiful cell route to Ertz that he throws on time. And then you have. with touch with like mild anticipation. So it's like, all right, this is stuff that's kind of being catered to him, right?

He's making the plays there to be made on the feel. And then there's the one play where Ertz is on the little crosser. He slips and then Jaden buys just enough time to come back to it with like a second reaction play. And you watch that happen and I was like, that's Lamar Jackson. So it's not just the type of stuff that's kind of being fed to him in a productive way. He's also getting most of the meat on the bone consistently. And I think that's why the offense just feels so smooth and so dynamic most of the time.

Yeah, those are great examples. I would also say the thing in the comparison with Lamar Jackson, you always got to try it a little lightly. But I think that it's valid because he is. I don't see it that often, but on that play it reminded me of just like something you would see Lamar do. Well, the way that I think of it is, okay, how do we stop a guy? How do you make Jaden's life a lot more difficult as a defensive scheme course? Oh, okay, we'll have a spy. There's nobody on the field that is going to run with him.

Like there is no one in the front. There's no one's going to, you can have a spy. That's great. That doesn't mean anything unless you have. He's going to make a much stupid in space. Yeah. He's not going to tackle him. Like those are the two guys.

Like, it's just not going to work. And so, you know, you have to be, I think it will be interesting to see how teams move forward trying to attack this unit because I think that they're potentially, you know, he's been so good against some of these. I think back, I forget what game it was. was, but he threw that huge go ball down the sideline when he took a big shot in the ribs. It was the Bengals game. Yeah.

It was just a crazy, impressive throw. But how the league wants to pressure or put him in those situations to do that consistently, if he can do that consistently, I mean, you're just, you know, you're an elite top tier guy right away. And so it's, that that's pretty damn impressive. But his ability to get the easy first downs, get a handful of easy first downs with just pure speed and pure gallop, just stride out. to get a first down is awesome. And he's making it look as easy as he did on Saturdays. You pointed this out and just how good of a job they've done at scheming up the first

read for him consistently. If you look at the numbers, that bet bears out. He is throwing the ball to his first read very often, and they've obviously been one of the most efficient offenses in the league. If we can get to a place where defenses are making it slightly harder and he has to progress more often and maybe buy himself a little bit more time in the pocket before taking off, how confident are you in his ability to bridge that gap over the next eight? games over the next two years. I mean, I don't think there's any reason to think he can't do that.

I think it's certainly harder to consistently live in that world. But it's one of those things where it's absolutely going to happen at some point. But there's nothing that's been any sort of barrier to entry for me as far as thinking he can't get through those types of things consistently. I just think it's a much harder game when you're not one and run. You know, one, oh, scheme, screen, chunk. You know, all of a sudden, all right, now we're down two scores. Now they know we're going to throw. Now we're in the dropback mode. Now we've got to go out and play like that for a quarter, for a quarter and a half and come back and win.

I don't think there's any reason to think he can't do that. But it's one of those things where it's just that next progression for guys. And you have to do it in real time when you're an NFL first round pick, your rookie year. Yeah, I'm with you. I have, this may be, this may sound aggressive. I have more faith in his ability to win an MVP award that that is going to happen than him being like merely an average quarter. back in the NFL based on what he's done so far. Like I have a lot of faith in where he can go from here based on what the nuts and bolts

have consistently looked like. He's these eight games in his career and he already looks like this. I mean, yeah, I might pump the brakes on like the MVP immediately, but like the, the, I'm talking like four years down the road. Like eventually we'll win an MVP award over. I'm not going to put the ceiling on him, but it feels, it feels aggressive to me. But I, I'm certainly excited to see it. I think the other part of it that, you know, just because we're in kind of that still,

that small and sample size is like, you know, you got to stay healthy. Yeah. You do. Of course. Like one of the bigger things with him was just like bizarre collisions that we just haven't seen as very many. There hasn't been a few, but you just want him to continue to make good decisions when he does run the ball because when you run the ball, people are going to take, the better you play, the more you run the ball. You know, you're absolutely a target out there.

And you can have the rules be as beneficial as you want to protect the quarterback. But it's one of those things that it's always living on the edge for me a little bit. So you want to continue to see him make good decisions, protect himself when he gets out there. Let's move on to Drake May. Obviously, you only got a couple Drake May starts to this point. But going back and rewatching your take on his game against Jacksonville, there's just a lot to like. When you watch him, he already looks comfortable. He's already making a couple impressive splash plays a game.

Through his first few starts, one of your initial impressions of the Drake May experience. experience been like. I think overall very positive. I think he immediately got better first start to second start. I thought he looks comfortable out there playing with a bunch of what I would classify as a challenged offensive unit. That's very kind. Yeah, a number of different ways how you want to frame it.

But I thought he looked more comfortable, better dynamic to your point about like, I think he's a better athlete than people think. He can run it a little bit. He's strong. He can go get some first downs with his feet. when it's not there, which is a great trait for a young quarterback to lean into, especially when your things are a little fast, things are a little fuzzy to not make a bad decision, go create.

When you're 65, 2.30 being able to do that. It's helpful. Yeah. But he's also got that, like, to your point, that wow, splash throws, that he does damn near every half. And you just can't get past it. Now, the part that, because it's not a huge sample size yet, the part that was most concerning probably for me coming out was just the consistency of some, the ability to make the easy plays look easy and to make the throws that you expect a pro guy to make consistently. You know, has he overcome that? Is that not an issue anymore?

You know, it's going to take more games to find out, but there's no reason to think he couldn't do that. We knew coming out that there was a chance that there might be a couple frustrating moments at game, whether those be some footwork things that lead to a spray or him being overly aggressive. And that's happened, right? There are going to be two, three, four plays a game, even when he's playing well where you're just like, whoopsie, that's not what you want there. But I think that two

games in his career, two and a half games into his career, the ratio of, oh, shit, I'll work, I can work with that to, uh-oh, that wasn't very good is very much in his favor. And I think very much something that you can get on board with. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that is frustrating when I watch him is I think sometimes he actually has a similar trait to how I think of Bo Nix a little bit where they will occasionally make things more difficult than they have to. Oh, we'll talk about bo necks. And so it's one of those things where, you know, if you can eliminate that, and, you know, part of me wants to give the player a little bit of grace when it comes to this because, yeah, they choose where they go to college. But the development for all these guys can be a

little bit different. And as far as different timeline, you know, I remember being in an NFL quarterback meeting rooms halfway through my career. And a coach would say something to me that I had never heard before that was like a light bulb moment to be like, well, where the hell were you? You know, five years ago when I could have used this to help me, those types of things. So it's, I want to see Drake may just make life easier on himself and become a lot more polished from the lower half so that he can be more consistent. He can be more precise. He can be more on time. He can better understand the timing and precision and rhythm that I'm assuming Alex Van Pelt and company expect from that position. And so you,

overlay that with the athleticism, the development, the decision making. And all of a sudden, the roster starts to improve. And now all of a sudden, we're feeling pretty good about ourselves. I think the comparison that I would make in terms of, all right, you're super, super talented, right? Your top five talent, you can throw the ball over the yard, you're huge, you're athletic. If this continues to be something we talk about, where you're bouncing around the pocket, not necessarily, you're making some of these throws harder, that's the reason, in my opinion, that watching Trevor Lawrence is frustrating at times is because he has all the talent in the world

and he has a propensity to do that a little bit too often and you're seeing some of those sprays that make you want to pull your hair out. So it's about making sure over time you start pulling that stuff out a little bit, you start pulling that stuff out more consistently so your play can be more consistent. And I think that's going to be what the process

looks like for Drake May, at least the way that I see it. Yeah, I think, I don't disagree with you. I don't necessarily love comparing people like that, but I oversee some of the frustrations that come with the Trevor world with potentially what Drake May could offer. I think for me, where I'm going to be most interested with a guy like Drake May

will be what does he look like coming back year two? Like, yeah, when we get out, he looks the part. Like he comes out there, can compete, can make the throws. But after a year on offseason of being a pro and really diving into exactly the nuance and details that a pro offseason looks like as far as polishing your footwork, work, the timing, the better understanding. If he comes back and looks like what I think of, kind of almost like, now, Jordan Love had a little bit longer runway, but Jordan Love playing year one

verse coming in to play the year, starting the timing, the rhythm, the footwork, the balance, all those types of things, just look polished pro ready for me. And so if you see that kind of jump from a guy like Drake made, then I'm going to get really excited because then you see the consistency, you just jump off the film. And the fact that we're talking about details of how he's moving in the pocket as the stuff that probably needs the most work, I think that's a really good place to be two games into your career when that was a pre-draft issue that people were talking about, even if it was a little bit overstated. The way that he's seeing things, how quickly he's playing, that stuff feels really good right now. And if that's the case, two starts into your career,

that's worth getting excited about. And I just love how aggressive he is. Like so often on these high lows, he's taken the high. He's throwing that Tampa 2 seam ball with a defender's back turn because he thinks he can get away with it. So often he's trying to make the best play on the field. And I think starting with that mindset when you're somebody with Drake May's skill set, I can get behind that. Like that's something I can very quickly get excited about. He seems to be in that place for me right now. Yeah. I mean, I think it's impossible for me to be that excited with only a handful of games. Of course. Yeah. I think if we, if if if this was the real middle of the season for him and he had taken every snap and he was playing like that, then absolutely.

But it's one of those things where, you know, we just need to see it more. There's no reason to think he can't do that. You know, I think that there were concerns coming into the season that are still there, but the little window that we've seen is very optimistic. And again, I love seeing guys improve immediately in real time within our eyes. That's why you want them out there. You know, I think it's always interesting to hear the kind of like ex post facto kind of, he shouldn't play, look at the development.

Patrick Mahom sat, George Love sat. Like, it's easy to cherry pick those examples. but for the vast majority of people, they need to play to improve. And so to get Drake May out there and see him improve in real time, even though it's a small sample size, is still very encouraging. He's checked a lot of boxes. I think that's the way that I would frame it over these first couple games. You talk about guys improving in real time.

Did you get to watch Bo Nix's game against the Panthers on Sunday? Yeah. It's actually loaded right now. It's ready to go. I have to click a button after this interview for it to go. I'll be honest. I watch the Raiders game. and the way that he played in that game drove me bananas.

Bananas. The hopping in the pocket, the consistent checking the ball down, I'm watching it, and it is actively frustrating. And then we talked about the Saints game, watched it in real time, didn't think he played very well in that game. I thought that what he did on Sunday was the best performance of his career by far, by like leaps and bounds, the best version of Bowenicks that we've got. And I know it came against the Panthers,

and it came with fantastic pass protection. The pass protection was good against the Raiders. and it was still very frustrating to watch him. So I'm curious how you think that performance compares to what you've seen from him for most of the season so far. I totally agree. But by far the best film I've seen with Bo Nix across the board. And yeah, you have to caveat it with the opponent, with the pressure that was there. But it's not Bo Nix's fault that they couldn't rush the passer.

You know, he's out there converting damn near every third down. He is being accurate. The things that he does well for me. athletic is really precise on the underneath throws. I thought maybe that was actually kind of where he maybe wasn't up to his normal standard just because it's so elite. Like he literally throws handoffs at the line of scrimmage. It's really impressive.

But he was throwing the ball down the field. The one touchdown throw on the seam ball, like the old school slug-o scene where the tight end made the one-handed catch. It was a hell of a catch. But it was an awesome quarterback play as well. He drove that ball down the field. The defender's back was turned, gave his guy a chance. There was another play,

a play action play where he looked to the right, had like a deep out, didn't like it, thought the flat defender got underneath it, reset his feet and threw a big backside in. I mean, it just looked apart. Like it was Sunday quarterbacking. He looked comfortable. There wasn't a whole lot of wasted movement. I think of, again, Bo Nix is a guy who will get himself in trouble, who sometimes struggles to see down the field, who sometimes moves unnecessarily with his lower half and makes life

difficult on himself. But there was really none of that. And he played at a really high level the entire game. Yeah, I'm 100% with you. And that play where he's coming back to that backside day, it was like four minutes left in the second quarter. And the timing on that throw, the decision to make that throw, it's like, oh, shit, okay. That looks pretty good.

And the Troutman throw, it's a great catch, right? But even the willingness to make that throw is just stuff that we weren't necessarily seeing early in the year. And I think the confidence and that has been growing with him is kind of breeding a little bit more aggressiveness. He's willing to push the ball down the field in this game consistently. I mean, I think on the first play of the game or the first drive of the game, there's a big in that he's willing to rip.

And that was just the feeling all day. And when you're combining that level of aggressiveness, seeing the game the way that he was, and not hurting himself. I mean, if you look at what he looked like in the pocket and how calm everything felt, very rarely in this game was he putting himself in unnecessary trouble. He finished 28 to 37. I think that that undersells how good he played. Like, there are two or three plays in that game that they left on the field.

I mean, the Troy Franklin deep ball could have been caught. There's another contested catch that could have been caught. So I left very impressed by everything that he put on the field on Sunday. And yes, I'll talk quickly about the first deep end that you mentioned. So the deep end that he throws, it is a nice throw in 2024 football. Now we play 2024 football nowadays. It's a very, it's one of those throws where if that doesn't go your way or that turns into an ambulance shot, the whole day is probably different.

Sure. But because he does rip it, he's aggressive in that intermediate zone, which is a nice step for me and my mind with him. He wasn't making those throws early in the season. He just wasn't making them. It bubbles out to everything else. So he's able to do what he does as far as the athleticism, the off platform, the really nice touchdown throw to the left.

He made some nice extension plays to the right. And really, to your point, it was better film than it was a box score. And it's a good box score. And it's one of those things where it's just a really impressive. day, I just really like the fact that it looked more polished from the pocket, where there wasn't what I consider, like, he wasn't bringing his feet together, he wasn't late, he was on time with so many of those things on rhythm that it just allowed him to flourish and have a great day. There's a couple frustrating moments. He takes an awful sack on third down and field go range,

but again, it's kind of like the Drake May thing. He's eight games in his career. Like, there are going to be a few moments every single game where you scratch your head a little bit, but the ratio in this game was just so much more encouraging than I think what we've seen from him, even as the Broncos have stacked up wins, trying to separate those two things. I think this was a different sort of performance from him, even if the competition was bad. Yeah, I mean, it was definitely his best. I mean, I'm fascinated to see what it looks like when it's a little bit harder in the pocket, when it's not quite as seven on 70 back there.

But the other thing that I will say, and I've been critical of the play calling in some of the Peyton stuff in the past, They were locked in. They were crazy aggressive. The fourth and one double pass up three touchdowns. Like it was just like a heat check. Like it felt very like NBA jams. Like it was just like, yeah, let this thing rip.

And it was like Davis Webb was having like the greatest time ever on the sidelines. Just like I had his hands up every other play for a touchdown. It was fun to see. It's fun to see offense like that. I appreciate offense like that. That's my kind of favorite offense. And so for Bo Nix to go out there and have that performance, good on him for getting better.

Yeah, it was definitely a step in the right direction. I actually really enjoyed watching him play. in that game. It was a stark contrast to my experience watching him in that Raider game where I wanted to pull my hair out the entire time. All right, we're going to come back with the categories for our midweek show. Before that, though, let's take one more quick break. Let's get to the categories that we like to hit on this midweek show. Let's start with upon further review, because I think that this is going to bleed into some news that crept out today. As you went back and you watched some stuff on Sunday, what was one performance or one thing that you watched that you wanted to dig into a little bit more?

I mean, there are a few things that jump out for me. I think the upon further review that you have to talk about from the quarterback position specifically is Anthony Richardson. That was mine as well. And what that was. You know, before hearing the news, before this thing went on about him no longer starting, I guess, I was going to look at this from a perspective of the tapping out thing, it's exhausting. I think it's been talked about agnosium for a number of correct reasons. And I've literally have never seen it before or thought about it. And it obviously was a window into him probably not quite understanding the role in

responsibility that he is tasked upon. But to me, the part that now a couple hours, you know, days away from it, I just, I don't, I think the only thing that matters is how he plays moving forward. Now, if he doesn't get a chance to play and it's already over, well, then it's already over. but if he goes out there and learns from it and can use this as a trampoline to make him do whatever he needs to do to take the next steps, I think it's, I guess in the short end of it, it won't matter if he goes out and plays well. If he doesn't play or this is the career-defining moment, well, then that's so unfortunate on so many different levels.

I don't want to ask you to psychoanalyze anybody, but I think as somebody who played the position in the league, your perspective here is valuable. to be yanked like this and to go to the bench after you were the day one starter as a rookie, do you feel like that can diminish a guy's confidence enough that it can be a long-term issue? Or do you feel like how somebody handles that sort of thing is ultimately a good test of like where they can take it from here? I mean, it's a delicate thing to me. And that's why I didn't know how to how they should handle it. I personally am surprised that they're handling it like this. You know, I watching the film, going back and watching the film, I don't think he necessarily

played as bad as people are framing it like he played. There's certainly some throws that he wishes he could have back in the consistency of how he plays, but he's such a dynamic, unique, alien unicorn at the position that, you know, for him to, for the narrative to be, hey, you tapped out, you're, you know, you're not have good cardio or something like that. Like, that's unfortunate because I just, he's a guy, he's an example of a guy to me that just hasn't played a lot of football. You drafted him knowing he didn't play a lot of football. Nothing has changed. He got hurt. He's come back. Is he playing as well as you probably would help? No. But why you're going to do this to him? I don't know how you're not going to convince me that you're sitting him is good for him.

You're just not going to. Now, he might make it good for him because he's so resilient. It matters so much to him that he'll make it work. But similar to the Bryce Young thing, I just, it doesn't make sense to me. The timing of it is bizarre. You know, they didn't ask me, But it just seems strange on many different levels. He could overcome it, but I think the path to overcoming it is a little narrower than you want it to be. I think that's probably the way that I would think about it. And we talked about the game on Sunday night.

I went back and I watched the throws from the broadcast angle just in real time before we did the show. And the throw that really stuck with me was the, it was a third and 13, I think, where he had like a deep comeback to the left side and he double hitches it and he gets hit as a result. It's incomplete. And the reason that that was a little bit alarming is because when I watched the Miami game, it just didn't feel like he was very comfortable. And it didn't feel like he was playing with the rhythm and the timing that he was, even as a rookie,

while the accuracy concerns were there, I actually thought that he looked comfortable playing the position. And so I thought, okay, this is just an extension of what we saw in Miami. Like, are these going to be bad reps for him that are going to further diminish his confidence? And is that the reason that you maybe take him out? going back and rewatching the game yesterday, I do not feel that way anymore. I don't feel like his timing and his feel and the way that he's seeing things is so off that the experience he'd be getting would be negative experience for him. Like you said, this is a guy who's played eight NFL games or whatever it is,

and he played 13 games in college. He needs to play. And I think that what those reps look like right now are not so bad that they're going to actively hurt him. And so I just, I don't think that benching him is the right thing. I think based on how he played on Sunday, we don't know what the dynamics look like, the Yanke himself out, how the players in the locker room have reacted, all that shit, that I can't pretend to know. But based on his play and what we've seen from him and what we saw most recently,

I think more experience in trying to work through this because his successor failure probably dictates your successor failure as a franchise. That to me feels more important than salvaging the 2024 season in some way, whatever that looks like. Yeah, and I don't even think it's off the rail so much that you're in salvage mode either. Like it just, it,

I totally agree with you on the fact that the, the comfort level of it, oftentimes doesn't look as comfortable as you would love. The part that I think is a little frustrating, it's just scheme-wise, when you think of how they, how Stiking got the job with the kind of model that they use with Jalen Hertz, as far as,

I don't think anybody thinks that back in the day, the Eagles were running the, like a comprehensive, robust chiefs-ish offense. They certainly weren't. And then the little window that we saw last year, I thought it was really creative, unique. They had a lot of cool quarterback-centric run game things that we just haven't seen at the forefront of what they're trying to ask him to do. And so whether it's kind of him trying to stay in a window to stay healthy or modify his game to be more available. But it just doesn't, it feels like they're almost asking him to do one too many things.

Because to your point, that throw on that kind of deep hinge down the field, you would hope that you would have a young guy play action, take your drop, have it timed up, take a quick hitch, let it rip, trust the one-on-one, trust the matchup that you designed to scheme it up and not have it be kind of something where we've got to look out there. Now he's running a stutter. Now the guy's jerky on us. We're not on time.

We don't want to put the ball in harm's way. And again, it's another example similar to a little bit of the Caleb thing where things seem unnecessarily difficult sometimes on the first read. And so whether we're being super chunky or explosive or trying to get everything down the field, let's just get some easy completions. Like let's manufacture the ball going through the net a few more times to make life easier for us. So we don't have to run around, chuck people, you know, have crazy ass touchdowns and get

called back because guys are running into each other down the middle of the field. It just, it feels so difficult. And that part of it is a little bit, feels irresponsible for me from a design perspective offensively when you got a guy like that. Let's lean into running it. You got him to be a creative runner. You let's make things, let's take advantage of what he brings to the table that it feels like sometimes they're not leaning into as much right now.

They're leaning into the volatility of it all. And I think leaning into the volatility of it all can screw with the guy's confidence when he's at the stage of his career. And you're seeing a lot of incompletions. And I think that that's a difficult thing to work through. when you're a young quarterback who hasn't played a lot of football. And it gets especially bad when every 50-50 ball they threw in that game fell incomplete. That night Mitchell ball should be a touchdown on the right side line.

The one down the left sideline at the pile on that's a contested catch probably could have been caught. Multiple guys not coming back to the ball. It's not explaining it away by any stretch. I think the box score looked far worse than the play actually was. And I don't think the play was bad enough to justify a benching when you consider where this guy is at his career. It's my two cents. Yeah, unless it's absolutely like a dumpster fire inside the last. locker room as far as guys just furious at that type of stuff which I and we can't know that and also I

don't necessarily believe that that's true it just feels very reactionary short term thinking uh and and maybe it is you know maybe if you start you know there's a lot of jobs tether to all these decisions and so that part of it I totally understand and the windows are closer and smaller and smaller for all these coaches but it's just it's tough to make sense of drafting someone developing someone and then yanking the rug after, you know, a handful of maybe not up to snuff performances on a stat sheet and making a bonehead to tapped out decision that you got to give someone, you got to, I don't, the part that gets frustrating for me is the development part of it, the teaching part of it, the ability to let him overcome in real time. Now you're taking that away from him and now it's just going to sit there fester and probably grow and make it worse. Yeah. And now what does the next eight weeks look like?

And then what does the next year look like? what do the next two years look like? I think you throw a lot of that into question just because you're trying to salvage what the season is. And I get it to a certain extent. But I also think that it's important to acknowledge the risk of a decision like this. Let's finish this off with the weekly iteration of ball knower. These are three questions that I like asking our guests.

We're going to start with something that eight weeks into the season, you know, you know about the NFL. Well, I feel a little bad because I feel like I used this earlier. But it's it is it is the one of the very few things I know I know I know I know that Roma Duneze has to be on the field more I love this I I personally the thing about it is and then this isn't it's not just as simple as hey he's the X you're the Z or things like that it's when I watch their film and I see 12 personnel and I see different iterations of 12 personnel meaning different tight ends are out there together whether it's Everett Lewis commit they've got different versions already. Now we need 12.15.

Now we need 12 Rome. And that's the one that I want to see the big play action shots. I want to see there's no way you can watch that film. See him run that double move, what I'm used to calling like a little Colorado, kind of like a little slant corner, post corner. See him win separate down the field and not have more of that. It's impossible for me. I refuse to believe it must be more now.

Every time they throw him the ball, something good happens. Every single time. And just at a certain point, you're fighting against the tide when you're not listening to that. So I love that. You're not going to get any pushback for me here on that one. What is something that you think you know eight weeks into the year? All right.

This one is a little bit more uncomfortable for me because I'm not quite as confident, but I want to lean into this. In the past, in my mind, my channel is very quarterback-centric, obviously. But with that comes a lot of play caller design, how important the play caller is. relationship with the quarterback. In the past, I would have said easy, one, two for me, in no real order would be Andy Reed and Shanahan. Those two guys, I think, have separated themselves for a long time. This year, it feels like Matt LaFleur is right there. And it's been really a master class. And I think it's magnified even more when you do it with multiple

quarterbacks. But when you watch their film and you see how he's, that scheme is so adaptive, so dynamic, so modern, so many shifts, movements, RPOs, play action, move the launch point. We're getting multiple options at the line of scrimmage. Multiple guys doing it, quarterback run game. It's just, it really, it's a pleasure to watch. My face hurts from smiling so much when I turn on that film. And you overlay it with Jordan Love, who's obviously a dynamic talent throwing the ball when he's healthy. But to see what Malik Willis has done too has been a great story in the NFL. It really, it's, it's one of those things where if I had to pick a play caller for a team that I wanted to root for or play for, it would be hard for it not to be LaFleur right now.

He's doing a phenomenal job. And he probably should have won coach of the year last year. It's just always hard. Like guys are, so many guys are deserving. Giving it to Dan Campbell last year, I'm 100% fine with considering the job he's done in Detroit. But I'm with you. And I think that it's so, it's such a nod to how much continuity matters, right? And I think the best example of this, when you talk about that offensive staff, they're in the game on Sunday. They see the Jags respond to a play action design. And the wide receivers coach passing game coordinator, Jason Vrable, who's been there for years,

goes up to Matt and says, I know that that leak play isn't in the game plan this week. But what if we went to it? Because they're giving it to us. They have a backup quarterback in the game. They bring everybody over. They draw it up in the sand. They go out and they run it for a chunk. That only happens because Jason Vrable has been there for years.

Adam Stenevich, who is their offensive coordinator and their old offensive line coach, he's been there for years. You feel that creative, collaborative energy when you watch this team play and when you have real exciting players and a real exciting quarterback, God damn, is it a thing of beauty. Yeah, I mean, that's a great story. And it really is. It shows to me the part that I identify that with is how adaptive the unit is. Totally. Flexible. The adaptiveness in real time is like elite master class,

but even as simple as going from a guy who is a great thrower to a guy who's not there yet in his career and is more of a runner, to see that kind of plan and then lean into, they didn't have like a sprinkle of, oh, let's have one quarterback run or one quarterback's. They had the whole damn robust volume of quarterback runs in a week. And the guy wasn't on the roster. It was a fucking wingtie offense. It was crazy. And to have it executed at a high level, it really is.

I think there are a number of really good play callers out there right now. And even in that division, there's a number of really good play callers. But the way that they're going about it feels different and higher than damn near anybody else. You mentioned the division. I think that getting to watch him, what COC is consistently doing this year, I love watching that offense. Obviously, Ben Johnson's pulling all the right levers. And somebody this week asked me who I thought the kind of under-reported, kind of under-celebrated, play callers were in the league.

And I think that KSC, we've talked about in the past, but I think he's doing the best job he's ever done. And the other guy, I don't know how much you've watched of them. I think that what Liam Cohen is doing in Tampa right now is really impressive. Like the details of what that offense feels like consistently game in and game out, even what they did last week without their top two receivers. There's a lot of good ball happening right now. And I think it makes it particularly frustrating when I have to watch my team every week it feels separated from that.

It's a bummer. That's a tough division for you. I know. Listen, in more ways than one. Last one here. What is something eight weeks into the season that you want to know about the NFL? So this one, I don't want to turn this like all serious and sad. But the thing that is hard for me right now with a quarterback position.

And I'm all for, I just, I want to know that in 10. 10 years, Tua is healthy, fine. We were all soft for thinking anything otherwise, and he absolutely has the, he certainly has the right to go out there and do whatever he wants to do. I just hope that he's getting great objective advice from as many credible sources as possible. Because as someone who cheers for him, who loves how he plays, who loves that offense, you just want someone himself to have the capacity to realize that there's a lot more to life than just that.

And man, I would be sick for myself as someone who makes a living being critical of the position and sharing about the position. If you didn't mention that there's so much that goes into it when it comes to this. And I would never take away his capacity to make his own decision about himself. But man, when you're in it, I know how hard it is. I'm someone who cheated on concussion tests for a long time.

I totally know how it is. And I don't know if I would have had the capacity to pull myself out of it or be able to step back with that. And so it's hard for me to be like, and I want to watch that Miami Dolphins film. Like, do, you know, like, I don't know if I'm there yet kind of in that space to be like, hey, man, I just want him to be all right. I want him to be healthy. And I know I heard people like cheering that he slid or something like that. Like that to me is like short term stuff. I just want in a, you know, in a generation for him to be healthy with the decisions that he's making centered around the position.

Did you have guys that you played with that you could tell just not that they had an unhealthy relationship with it, but they needed the game. It was just something that the place that it had within their lives is something that they would have trouble walking away from and what that looks like when you actually see it. I mean, I think that's most of us. I would say, you know, the easy example is in seeing Diego used to work out for a little bit. about the same time at the same group that Junior Seyout worked out at. And those types, the relationship that he had with the game, with this community, you know, and what it probably ended up impacting his life on so many different levels. You know, you just, it's so hard to make sense of it in real time when you're going through

it, especially if you're an elite competitor and so much is demanded on you and you hold yourself to such high expectations. You've got to be out there. You want to be out there. and there aren't really guardrails to protect yourself from yourself, even though there seems like there's so many of these systems in place to do that, at the end of the day, you've got to make the decision about your own health, about yourself in real time. And it's just, it's tough, man. And I love watching him play. That's the other part that's tough is like, I love the way he plays.

I love the anticipation. I love that unit. I love everything about his game. Just want him to be able to enjoy everything about, you know, what this life is going to bring him. it's hard to have perspective when you're young, right? And I think that that's just something that plays into it. You're in your mid-20s, even if you've endured some of that stuff, you feel like you're probably a little bit invincible to an extent. And I wouldn't compare myself to any NFL player. But even as somebody who played football until I was 18,

I go back and I talk to the high school teams now because all my coaches are still there and I have great relationships with them. Something I say to them is like, it's not that it'll never get better than this. That'd be sad if it would never get better than that. in this, but it'll never be like this again. Like the way that you feel when you play is a special, special thing. It's an experience that you'll never compare anything else to that. And taking that to college and the NFL, I truly cannot imagine what that is like for someone and what they feel

when they're in that moment. And so trying to tell someone, hey, you don't get to do this anymore, even if it's actively hurting you to be in this position, it's a difficult thing. And I think that the way that you framed it is right. You hope that he's getting the right advice. He's having the right people around him. And he's able to make that decision knowing everything that should be going into it. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I agree with the whole thing about it being a unique perspective is a unique experience. And there is so much of your own identity baked into that process for so many of us. And rightly so. My thing about it is it's almost selfishly like, Like if something were to happen again, I know that I would just be devastated for him on so many different levels. And it would, but at the same time, what had, nothing had really changed either. And so it's almost like one of those things where I almost feel like there's a little bit of responsibility.

And I'm sure they could care less. But like for the people with my little channel, my little window into the league and what I do specifically for the position is how I look at it, it's hard for me to sit there and be like, yeah, I'm going to celebrate this. this and then not say anything to the dark side of like, hey, man, this is a dangerous game. There's a lot of long-term health impact. And oftentimes it's not to the quarterback position, even though some of my favorite quarterbacks growing up, I think of as concussions really impacted their careers, like Troy Aikman, Steve Young, guys that were like many of the reasons I fell in love with the game. And so to see it happening in real time, at least just acknowledging it, having a conversation

about it, even though if there are no right answers, I think helps that. least, you know, air it out a little bit in my own mind to be able to do the mental gymnastics with what could be a number of bummers down the line. I appreciate you doing that because I think that I've struggled to figure out how to talk about it because I, because there isn't a right answer, it's easier to shy away from it. Just be like, yeah, it's his decision, you know, but wrestling with some of the complications and wrestling with why there isn't an answer is 100% worth it. So, thank you for putting that forth just to have the conversation. You talk about the channel that you do, before we get out of here, I just want to tell people if they are not consuming the work that you're doing, they're really missing out. I think that the way that you've approached the stuff on your channel is incredible. It's such a fun way to experience the game because the way that you break stuff down and even just the medium and how you use it, it feels like a real collective experience. You're talking to your audience and it's a place where I know that when I'm watching them, I really enjoy spending the time, spending the time with you in that.

as in the way that you talk about the game. So if you guys are looking for something that is enjoyable, is comfortable, and is additive to your understanding and appreciation of what you're watching on Sundays, please, please go check out the work that JT is doing on the QB School. Well, I appreciate the kind of words. I really do have a lot of fun doing it, way more fun than I would have ever have thought. And I just try to continue to kind of share with the community. And I get as much back as I put into it.

So I have a blast with it. All right, guys. That is all we've got for today. Something I want to know about the NFL. I might as well mention at the end of this. I want to know how Deante Johnson's going to fit within the Ravens offense because he is now a Baltimore Raven. That happened while we were recording this. I think it makes sense.

I like Zay, Deontay Johnson, Rashad Bateman. Bateman can now be like the vertical presence they want him to be. I like it. I like the Ravens pushing all their chips in here because I think this is a really good team and a really good offense. But we will talk about that a little bit more at length later this week. That's all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll be back with our week night.

and preview on Friday. Thank you to Dan. Thank you to JT. Thank you to you guys for listening. I'll talk to you very soon.