The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - The hopeful stories teams are telling themselves this season

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

Every year, a handful of teams have to convince themselves that a certain story they've been telling themselves all offseason will turn out to be true. Their success for the coming season hinges on it. One example for 2025...Ben Johnson is exactly what Caleb Williams needs. So what are the other stories that teams are telling themselves as we approach the beginning of training camp? Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen get into them on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Hosts: Robert Mays and Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. We've got a fun show for you guys today. Something a little bit different as we are deep into the darkest part of the off season here. I've noticed this over the past few years. I actually touched on it when I was on Bill Barnwell show a little bit earlier this week. But I think when we get to July, we start looking forward rather than backward. Fan bases start talking themselves into how this can all work out because they're far enough removed from the

disappointments at the end of last season. It's not as fresh the shortcomings of your team. And now it's a lot easier to sit in why these moves are going to work out, why it's all going to come together, why your team's plan this offseason was actually the right plan. And so that's what me and Derek are talking about today. We are digging into some of the stories that teams have had to tell themselves this off season and have to tell themselves going in to this year in order to sleep well.

at night. Like all this stuff that we did, these big swings that we took, this is why they're going to work out. So that's what we did today. We picked like six or eight stories that teams are having to tell themselves as we head into the 2025 season. Really enjoyed this conversation with Derek. Let's get to it right now. Today we're really going to explore the offseason and what the offseason really means for teams. And this isn't about transactions. This isn't about anything practical. This is more about some of those intangible, less definable elements that define every single offseason. And that's just these stories that teams kind of have to tell themselves about how the season is going to go. The moves have been done, right? The die is cast. There's really nothing left that

these teams can do to better themselves. So we're just sitting here to live with the decisions that have been made. And right around now, you can kind of feel it with fan bases. Now we've gone from the what needs to get better to all of the stuff is fixed full steam ahead. And so that's what we're doing today. We're going to dig into some of these stories and some of these, some potential lies that teams have to tell themselves about the upcoming season because they've made their beds and there's really nothing left to be done about it. I'm excited for this one because there are, we have to tell ourselves stories as analysts

to like spy into certain teams or why we should trash certain teams or whatever it is. So to try to flip that around a little bit and try to get in their heads and try to get into why they're telling themselves their stories, it's, I've got some ones I'm excited to get into. I want to make this very clear. From the outset, I am buying some of these, or at least I'm not outright dismissing them. So I don't want it to be framed as these are lies teams are telling themselves or these are far-fetched stories that teams are telling themselves. Some of these will likely come true. but either way, there are a necessity for these teams as we get to the eve of training camp.

Yeah, like there's definitely some in here that I started immediately with like, they're telling themselves this story, but I don't buy it. But there are a couple where I'm like, the more I look at it, the more I'm actually starting to buy it. And I understand the story they're trying to tell me. So let's, why don't you kick this off? What is the first story that you wanted to dig into that a team has to tell themselves at this point in the calendar?

So I think for me, one of the most interesting teams, going into this year is the Rams and specifically their defense. And I think the story that they are telling themselves is that Puna Ford is going to fix the run defense and that's going to let them do all the stuff they want to do with the pass rush. And that's going to paper over a secondary that's still not very talented. And we kept thinking they were going to trade for Jalen Ramsey and that ship is sailed. Jailuner Ramsey is off the market now. So that's not going to happen. And they really have to tell themselves a story. And I kind of want to backtrack to how bad it really was last year to really get into the frame of mind of how important I think this is for that Rams defense.

They were 23rd in run defense success rate last year and that dropped to 25th specifically on first downs. They were 27th in yards before contact allowed and they were 29th in tackles for losses plus run stuff. So basically any run that goes zero or less. And the reason that's important is that the best thing that this Rams defense does is get after the passer. But because the run defense was so bad, they weren't actually.

actually allowed to get into those down and distances they wanted. So I went and looked at this and I looked at how often were teams getting into third down and seven yards plus? Like true, no, no nothing about it. This is a pass rush down. Nobody had fewer of those plays than the Los Angeles Rams. And it's unfortunate because that's obviously the best thing that they do. And just for reference, the Rams had 84 of those plays last year.

The Broncos led the league with 129, which was kind of actually insane. the Texans were in second at 116. And so the difference between them and the Texans is like two plays a game, which doesn't sound like a lot. But hey, man, I would love two more plays a game of Jared Versk getting after the pastor, Braden Fisk, Chris Shula cooking up something. Like that could literally change a game. And the fact that they couldn't get there, I think, did hurt them a lot.

And they're hoping that Puna Ford helps them out a lot there. It's a great observation about the Broncos specifically because I don't think we really tie those things together where if you stop the run, you get to rush the passer. Like those two things are intertwined. And just think about how many sacks the Broncos had last year. They had 63 sacks, which led the leak. And so it helps to have those sorts of situations in order to stack up those sack numbers.

The Rams with the great pass rushers that they have and the great pass rush potential that they have finished the season with 38 total sacks in part because they weren't in those situations. Here's the optimistic spin. And let me play devil's advocate a little bit. In the back half of the year, this run, D.E. defense in this defense period did get better. And so overall, in the back half of last season, weeks 10 through 18, they were 18th in run defense success rate. So do you think that the younger

pieces and just Chris Schula being in year one as a defensive coordinator and them going from definitively at bottom half of the league defense in the first half of the year to an acceptable level in the second half of the year? Does that give you any hope about the overall trajectory of this unit moving forward? It does because this is one that actually. so they am kind of buying. And obviously they did. Oh, nice. Okay.

Yeah, I am kind of buying it. Like, I do think they're going to, and I don't think they're going to be some world beating run defense or anything like that. But obviously they lost Bobby Brown this off season, who I think is a nice player. But if Puna Ford maintains his level of play, he's an upgrade over that. I think we can probably project some degree of development from guys like Brayden Fisk and Jared Ver-I mean, Jared versus already a good run defender. But there's a chance that he continues to get better.

And then you mentioned Chris Shula, like, I really think by the second half of the season. And we see this a lot with young defensive play callers that they really start to get into a groove for how they want to call things. And again, I'm going to bring up that Vikings game for the millionth time. But them being able to stop the run in that game and then get into some of the stuff they wanted with some of the pass rush stuff. I don't know if it's going to look that good every week next year. But that's what you want to tell yourself that you can get more of those games. And I think we will. This is the problem with using those examples laid into the season is that you can you can try to tell yourself, oh, this is an indication of what's to come.

But on the other side of it, well, the Vikings rushing offense was cratering at that point in the year. So how real is that on either side? But I think the Rams, obviously with how many young players they have, sometimes we get in trouble by doing this or we project a big step forward. The last thing I'll ask you about this Rams team in this situation, how much better would you feel about the Rams defense if, like Rasul Douglas was on the Rams by the time week one started? probably a good amount actually and like again Rishul Douglas the fact that corners

are this late on the market I think Stefan Gilmore is still out there if they wanted to do that but like truthfully if they signed one of those guys I would go from I don't know shaky to being like okay the pass rush will be enough to let this secondary

get away with what they got to get away with we hadn't really addressed the Rams part of the Jalen Ramsey trade to the Steelers because that was kind of the last domino to talk about because we kind of just assumed at least I had I'd kind of put Rams defense conversations on the back burner because I didn't want to make any grand proclamations about them before the Jalen Ramsey shoe dropped.

Now that it has, it's like, all right, well, they still probably need another corner for this all to come together or we're really relying on a kello-weather spoon to make this work. Again, I think they'll probably be fine on that side of the ball, but I'm just imagining the upside on offense, and I just want them to balance that out with a capable defense that can allowed this team to compete at the highest level in the NFC. Exactly. I just, I mean, 35 to 35 games are fun, but I don't want the Rams to have to live that way every single week, the way that we saw from Washington last year or the Bengals last year.

I just don't want it to be that bad. I want there to be at least a handful of games next year where the Rams can just win 28 to 13 and we're all feeling good about how well the defense played. I've got a couple here that I want to start off with that were the first ones I thought of when we were going to do this exercise. And let's just start close to home because this is the one that I've thought about the most this offseason, I think is pretty clear. The story that Bears are telling themselves is that Ben Johnson can salvage Caleb Williams and can get the most out of him after the Bears built their entire future around this player. They passed on the quarterbacks in the 2023 draft.

They stumbled into the number one pick in a year where there was supposed to be this transcendent quarterback prospect. Comes in last year and the overall production is disappointing. And we've talked so much about why that was the case and about the context around his play. But if you look at the numbers purely, they were bad. It was a very bad passing offense overall. And so they go out and they get Ben Johnson kind of trying to rectify a mistake they made last offseason by not building the correct coaching staff around Caleb Williams. And so the story the bears have to tell themselves is this is going to work now.

We have the quarterback who's good enough with the right situation. And now we've given him the right situation. situation. And the key thing I've kept coming back to over the last few months is I get that. I think I am buying into that. If that story ends up proving to be false, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know what I'm going to do for you. Like I just, I feel like if it starts to unravel by like week seven or eight, we're going to start having some weird shows with how we're going to have to talk about Caleb Williams and the Bears and all that stuff. But this is another one where I didn't want to put this down because like, of course you were going to put this down. So I was

going to let you have it, but I'm also buying it, man. And like, I really like Ben Johnson. And I think obviously the corollary everyone's going to go back to is Sean McVeigh stepping into the Rams for Jared Gough and stuff like that. And that one's a funny one because I don't think it, there's a very low chance it looks that good right away, right? Like, Caleb Williams is super talented and Ben Johnson's a great play caller. But that was like a truly special one year transformation. We just don't see a lot of those. It was also just a type of offense that caught people off guard. I just don't think anybody was ready for how to combat that. So even if I think Ben Johnson could put a sound capable system together, I don't think he's going to revolutionize offensive football in the NFL in a

single offseason. So I don't think it's going to be quite the force of nature that those 2017 Rams felt like early on. That's such a good point because I remember writing, even when he took the job with the Rams and looking back at some of McVeigh stuff with Washington, I was like, Nobody's really doing tight formation stuff from under center the way that they are. And obviously that was only part of why they were good. But Ben Johnson doesn't necessarily have like a thing that's on the forefront. He's just a really good play caller and pieces things together well and understands what he wants out of his offensive line. The flip side of why it, there you can sell me on why it might look that good is I do think a lot of what Caleb Williams showed, even though there was inconsistencies and a lot of bad habits, was way better than what Jared Goff showed as a rookie.

Like Jared Goff looked like legitimately unplayable. Caleb Williams looked bad with nice flashes. And so that I do think gives you some degree of hope. Again, why you can start to buy into this. Offensive line's going to be better. We know Ben Johnson is going to use his players better, specifically the receivers than we saw last year. And I think that's going to go a long way.

So this is definitely one where they're telling themselves a story, but I'm telling it to myself and I'm kind of buying it. I want to be clear because I think some people have thought when we did that second year quarterback show that I was comparing the, Jared Gough rookie year and the Trevor Lawrence rookie year to the Caleb Williams rookie year. It was more about trying to provide the right feeling for the situation that they were in,

where you could clearly see those guys as rookies were just trying to keep their heads above water because of what they were dealing with schematically within that offense. The numbers are not nearly as bad for the Bears' offense with Caleb Williams as they were with the Rams offense with Jared Gough as a rookie. So I'm with you. They're starting from a better position than those offenses were. So we'll see what happens. like this is the biggest this is one of the biggest stories of the offseason that a team has had to tell themselves and i think that there's a lot of validity to it now we'll see if it ends up turning out to be true i want to ask a question before we we end it outside of Caleb williams just not having it like just not being good enough what would be the reason that makes you think it wouldn't go right this year for this collection of of players and coaches that's a great question i think more inconsistency at left tackle than you want like let's say brachson jones isn't ready

you're starting Tripillo left tackle from the start of the season. He's a second round pick. We know that that can go awry. I actually do have some faith in Ben Johnson being able to protect one single offensive linemen if there is one week link. But that is the personnel thing that I would be worried about the most. We'll see what happens with the receivers. Like I have a lot of hope for Roma Duns-A,

but is there a chance that Roma Duns-A's struggles last year were about more than the offensive situation? I think it's really hard to get a feel about a receiver when they're in that sort of situation because think about how many unkatchable targets went Roma Dunezay's way. It's hard to even understand what he was as a rookie. So I think the uncertainty around that is probably the other personnel thing that I would mention. And the last one is just the transition from being a specific offensive coordinator to being a play calling head coach.

There are just so many more things on your plate, the hand he's going to have and how the offense is designed, how the offense is constructed, where he can spend his time in meetings. We've just seen this happen before where guys who have. what felt like a magic touch as coordinators as their scope grows, they just don't, they can't find it again. And I'm not saying he's going to be a bad play caller in almost any of these scenarios. But even if he's 75% as good as he was in Detroit, does that lead to an outcome where we're a little bit underwhelmed by this? That's a good point because like 75% of Ben Johnson is still like solid, but that's not what you hired him to be. You hired him to be 100% of

Ben Johnson and like truly give you one of the most dynamic offenses in the league. So I just had to pick your brain a little bit on like what, what are the parts of it outside of Caleb that are keeping me? I hadn't really thought about that that much because I do think that they've done a good enough job of setting the floor with pretty much all 11 starters. But the left tackle situation is there, are the past catchers as good as we want them to be in a good situation? And then what does it look like for Ben Johnson as a play caller?

Does he have the right people around him? Just the rhythms of the week. Like how much he's going to be able to. spend time on the offense, all that stuff that they're going to be sorting through in year one with almost an entirely new staff. The other one that I would say is similar to this, by the way, the Jaguars are having to tell themselves a very similar story about Trevor Lawrence and Liam Cohen. I have that one on my list, so we can just jump straight to that. Let's get into it. And so mine actually was like half Liam Cohen and half like, they have to sell themselves

that this offensive line is going to be good enough. And that was actually more the angle that I took on it. And credit to them for going in and trying to make a move for Robert Hainzy and Patrick McCarrey and trying to fill these roles. But Ezra Cleveland is a guy who the Vikings moved on from. And I've made, I've made this point a million times. Vikings guards are very bad. And they spent this off season being like, we'll spend any amount of resource to get new guards. Robert Hainsey was a backup in Tampa, or ended up being pushed to backup in Tampa Bay because they wanted a first round center. And they had to be replaced on purpose last off season. They drafted a first round center because he was not good enough for them.

That is worth acknowledging. Exactly. And like he can still be, you know, the 25th best center in the league and get pushed out and, you know, whatever. But it's, he was not good enough to hold the starting job in an offensive line that became one of the best in the league. And I think that's important. And then Patrick McCarrie, you know, he's the perfect great Band-Aid replacement. I don't know if he's like a long-term solution for them. And obviously, you know, maybe neither of these players are even starting for them two years.

from now and it doesn't matter. But if they're trying to sell themselves on this year one jump start of like, this is going to be the year for Trevor Lawrence, Travis Hunter's going to be awesome for us, Brian Tom's Jr. is going to ascend into one of the best receivers in the league. You kind of need this offensive line to really take a step forward. And I will say, I think about a month ago, I was probably a little bit more skittish about the tackles than I am right now. I think they might be fine.

But I just do think there's a world where this interior is not quite good enough unless Liam Cohen is really, really insane with his run game stuff. And we talked about it before. That might be true. But this is a different interior that he's working with now than he had in Tampa Bay. To bring it back to the conversation that we just had, this offensive line in terms of build and quality and in terms of the bets that they're making individually across the five spots, you know what it kind of reminds me of? The Bears offensive line heading into last year. Oh, no.

Oh, no. Do you get what I'm saying? Oh, that is so good. I absolutely do. So let's look at the individual spots. So you have like a young left tackle that has been fine and you're kind of betting on. Obviously Walker Little is deeper into his career than Braxton Jones was. But I think what you're shooting for a left tackle is we can live with this.

Like that's what you're going for with Walker Little. And left guard, Ezra Cleveland is like in the Tevin, Jenkins kind of mold where it's just like, all right, you know, like this is, this is fine. The Robert Hansey thing is kind of like the Coleman Shelton signing from last year. Like they're in the same vein with free agent centers that you're getting. McCarrie, I think, is kind of similar in price and what you're paying. as what Nate Davis was. And there's a little bit of projection with McCarrie because he hasn't been a starter.

He's kind of been a swing guy. He was thrust into a starting role last year in Baltimore and played well. But I think, you know, same sort of pay structure in the same sort of range of paying those guys in. And then Anton Harrison is like exactly darn all right. He's going to his third year as a first round pick. And I think what makes this so interesting is that even if the talent level collectively is probably the same. And I think people overstated how bad the bear's line was. last year from a talent perspective, this is a moment where the situation can make one group look

so much better than they are rather than the Bears looking so much worse than they were. So I think some Jacks fans hearing me say that their skin might crawl, but because the coaching is going to be so much better than it was in Chicago last year, I think you could potentially get by with this talent level of the offensive line where you couldn't with the Bears last season. It's a great point because we talked about that a lot last year where, you know, I don't know, I'm just throwing out random numbers. If we go from that exact offensive line talent level, having the 25th best play caller with a guy like Shane Waldwin,

to now, let's just say Liam Cohen is the 12th or 13th. You don't have an elite play caller, but man, that's a good enough difference to allow this like a Band-Aid unit type of offensive line with a couple of young players you need to take a step to be good enough. And I do think specifically, you know, I think we saw a lot,

there were a lot of issues with Waldron's offense, but part of it was that the run game, just never felt like it had any dynamism to it, that is not going to be an issue with Liam Cohen. I think Liam Cohen is going to bring in some really cool shit to Jacksonville. And whether or not they can execute it, we'll see. But I do think the ideas are going to be way more fleshed out than we saw from Chicago last year. And I also think the same considerations with whether Ben Johnson can keep this rolling as a play

calling head coach extend to Liam Cohen. And there are more concerns and questions about Liam Cohen because we've seen him do this one time. He's done this for one year. And there have been other examples in the past where you have this one year spike from a play caller, and that's maybe not an indication of what's to come. The fact that Ben Johnson did this for pretty much two and a half years, I guess that's what I would say. Dan Campbell was involved in the play calling process in the second half of the 22 season,

but I still feel like Ben Johnson had that offense changed when Ben Johnson started calling plays. It was a very exciting offense in the back half of 2022. So the fact that Liam Cohen's only done it for a year, I think there's added doubt about how this is going to go. the difference between the bear situation and the JAG situation with the quarterbacks is the JAGs already paid this guy like they've paid him $50 million a year they need this to work out Trevor Lawrence is going to be the Jaguars quarterback for a while when you look at how that contract is structured and what those option bonuses look like

etc so Liam Cohen they need this to work almost even more than the bears needed to work with Caleb Williams because even if the bears have constructed this whole thing around Caleb Williams working out. You can move on from him two years from now if you have to. The Jags are in a little bit of a different situation with how tied they are to Trevor Lawrence. That's a really good point. Like if this doesn't work out for them, this is like nuclear levels of bad. And I, again, you can live with it.

Yeah, Trevor Lawrence is not, it wasn't the 29th best quarterback in the league last year like Caleb Williams was, but you're paying him $50 million a year. Exactly. And that's the thing. Like if it doesn't work out, you're going to be in the sports. spot that like the dolphins are at with Tuatung Vailoa or where the Rams were at the end of the Jared Gauth thing where it's like we paid a lot of money for a guy I'm not sure is good enough for us and I do think for as much as I've defended Trevor Lawrence for a while now

if the play calling looks relatively good as it did from Liam Cohen as it did in Tampa Bay and Trevor's still not playing as well as he needs to I I'll start to actually have some concerns about like maybe he's just not who I thought he was you're going to have a hard time counselor If it unfolds that way, you're going to have a hard time. To be clear, I'm still in that camp as well. Like, I still do believe that he can look better than he's ever been with somebody like Liam Cohen there. But if it doesn't turn out that way, I think we're going to have to start backpedaling

in a hurry. We're going to have to have Beller start deleting some episodes from the backlog if this does not go very well this year. We're going to take our first break here and get back with a few more stories that teams are having to tell themselves this offseason. All right. So that Pajaxi one was your second one. Let me roll out my second one. The Giants have had to tell themselves that they just had a Daniel Jones problem.

Yeah. I'm so glad. I want you to keep going on this one because I had a Giants. I had like a more specific Giants one, but keep going. When you keep the head coach and the play caller, excuse me, when you keep the head coach in the GM for an offense that has been as bad consistently as the Giants have over the last few years, essentially since that's surprise season that first year from Brian Daible, you have to be telling yourself the quarterback

was the problem. The quarterback was the problem. Set aside the fact that they paid the quarterback and then they chose him to be the quarterback. That's a whole different conversation. But what the giants, I think, have tried to sell, I'm assuming to ownership and to the fan base this entire spring summer about why this can be better is, well, we just need a different quarterback. And they've done it two different ways here. They've done it with the veteran kind of lateral move, but upgrade where it's like, well, Russ isn't going to be as bad as Daniel Jones. So even if we sit Jackson Dart for the entire year, Russell Wilson is still going to make this a more capable offense than Daniel Jones

because Russell Wilson pushes the ball down the field. That's the big difference here. And just imagine what Darius Slate and Malik neighbors are going to be with a quarterback who, even if he's imperfect, is going to push the ball down the field. That's one of the stories. And then the other story is, well, of course, Russ isn't the ceiling that you eventually want. But that's why we took this guy in the first round. We're going to have the best of both worlds.

We're going to be capable and competitive for this entire year. And this guy who needs a little bit of work, we're going to be able to sit him this year. And then he'll play in 2026. And that's when things really get cooking. So there are a lot of quarterback-centric stories you're having to tell yourselves if you're the Giants right now. I don't even know which part of the quarterback thing I want to start with. Like the Rust thing, it's just we literally saw another team. Like, honestly, I understand.

the Steelers trying it after the Denver thing with Russell Wilson, right? Because you could, you could tell yourself the story. They paid him a million dollars. Exactly. They paid him a million dollars and you could tell yourself the story like, okay, he was great in Seattle and it didn't work out in this one spot. Denver brought in a new code. Sean Payton didn't want him. You could tell yourself the story that that's why it went wrong. But it happens again in Pittsburgh where it's not that good. Now the giants are having to do it again. It's like you're making a mistake that we just saw. So I don't love that. I guess the only cope is if you can really get yourself there on Russell Wilson being still a very good deep passer, which he is or can be. Malik Neighbors and Darius

Slayton is more exciting to me than what he's had the past three years in any of his spots. So maybe that's the angle. But again, I'm sure that's what they're telling themselves. That one I don't know if I can get. It's interesting though. You went like all offense with the Giants. My Giants one was going to be with this defense they're really selling themselves that a pass rush is going to fix every other issue and then so it's interesting that on both sides of the ball they got to sell themselves on a whole lot of stuff i mean they're the defense the pass rush is going to solve issues and they're hoping that the money that they've thrown around in the secondary they're plugging enough holes and plug in enough leaks that it's going to make the past rush worth it right like if we

go out and get if we spend money to fix these problems with jvonne holland and paulson and debo we're going to be able to unlock the past rush. It's all going to come together. And if the offense with Russ is merely capable in year one and we can sit Jackson Dart and the defense becomes a truly elite unit, that's how we can be like a borderline playoff team in 2026. I get that. I mean, I understand how you start talking yourself into that when you look at the pieces on paper for the Giants defense. I will just say I'm a little bit more skeptical about this collection of stories than I am about the first couple that we talked about. I'm definitely more skeptical.

Like the other ones I either buy or like the doors open for me to get it, the Giants one, it's so hard for me to see any of the angles. And it's not even just for a large part of it for me is that Russell Wilson, I think at this stage is probably at best like quarterback 24, 25 and that's not going to solve a whole lot of issues for that. I didn't love Jackson Dart as a prospect really. And I think that was also going to be another thing that they're going to have to get there on.

But the other thing is that with. these two quarterbacks specifically, you really need a good offensive line in front of them. And we've talked about this before. There's a chance to me that unit is not very good. And if it's not, I don't think any of the things they're selling themselves on these quarterbacks are going to come to fruition. Yeah. The way that we frame the offensive line conversation with the Giants, and I think this is

kind of my thoughts about it, is you're kind of shooting for just below average. Like, that's the best case scenario with the bets that you've made. And I think that's always dangerous. when you're shooting for like the 20th best offensive line in the league you can only get worse from there so there's a chance they hit it and that group is fine right you can survive with that group you can run the offense with that group but i think there are plenty of other timelines here where it's worse than that and you start putting yourself in a pretty dicey position exactly it's that's where i get really safe and it's like with russell wilson it's more the you know eight years ago you could have a bad

offensive line, he would just run around and it would be fine. That's not true anymore. And then with Jackson Dart, he's actually kind of more like old Russell Wilson where he actually is a good enough athlete to run around a lot. But he's also a guy where he's a little bit too willing to sit there and just take a hit in the pocket. And I think with some of the processing issues that he might have as a rookie, there might be some gnarly interceptions that we see if that's the case. Well, guess what, buddy? He's not going to play as a rookie. Didn't you hear what I was saying before? Russ is going to be good enough for Jackson Dart sits the entire first year. That's the story. The one I would say is kind of similar to this

where a team is having to tell themselves this is a quarterback problem. The other stuff that we have in place is good enough to keep rolling with is the Browns. The Browns are having to tell themselves that they had a Deshawn Watson problem. And as soon as we get away from Deshawn Watson

in some way, shape, or form, whether that's Dylan Gabriel this year or trading out for a quarterback in 2026 with that extra first round pick, we're going to be okay. The coach, the general manager, the roster talent overall, you don't pay Miles Garrett all that money and keep him instead of trading him for picks if you don't think that you're a couple years from being competitive again.

And I think part of that is the quarterback was the problem. We have enough other things we feel good about that this turnaround is going to happen quicker than people on the outside belief. So if you're buying it level for the Giants on that is like, I don't know, a two or a three, what might it be for the Browns? I think it's higher because we've seen the Browns defense be a truly elite unit. And I think a decent amount of those pieces are still in place,

even if they've just gotten unlucky. Like obviously the JOK thing is tough. The secondary isn't as complete as it was. I do think that the Brown's lack of draft picks over the last couple years does make me a little bit worried about how fast they can turn things around. There isn't a lot of talent, like just underlying talent on the roster

because of those missing drafts. draft picks. But I think the stability we've seen from Kremskinez and the heights we've seen from the offense, having that extra first round pick next year, I can kind of buy it. I can kind of buy that the right other pieces are in place for the Browns. They made the playoffs like multiple times with this group. So I do think it requires a little bit of delusion in order to get yourself there, but I think I'm closer with the Browns than I am with the Giants. Okay. I'm glad you said that because that's exactly where I'm at where, again, for me, it's probably like a two. out of 10 for the Giants on me buying it.

But with the Browns, it might be a four out of five. Because at least with the Browns, we have seen Stefanski do this with other quarterbacks who weren't even that good. Like Jacoby Brissette is not the best quarterback in the league. And they had like a pretty functionally good offense with him. And I know the offensive line was better. And they had Nick Chubb and all this other stuff. And the defense was playing well.

But like we've at least seen some proof of concept from it with Stefanski. Whereas with Daible in New York specifically, we really haven't. And I guess that's part of it. my issue. I mean, we saw that one year, the first year they were around, they succeeded with that very weird, specific sort of offense. But I think that is more of an outwire than it is an indication of what we can expect from this group based on how the last couple years have gone. What's your next one here? What is a story that a team has had to tell itself this offseason? This one might sound weird because I still expect the team to be good, but the Vikings are really

telling themselves that defensive back talent just doesn't matter. at all. And I know, I love this one. This is good. Because they got away with it last year, right? Where you're, you're paying like 34-year-old Stefan Gilmore or whatever it is and you're, you're getting away with some of that stuff. Josh Mattelis is playing a bunch of snaps for you.

But they let Gilmore walk and they only really kind of replaced them with a lot of players who are, I think in the best case scenario, as good as Gilmore was last year. And then in the safety room, you let Cam Bynum walk, who was arguably their best defense He was their best defensive back outside of Byron Murphy. And then Harrison Smith, God bless him, is still playing well. But he's 36. Like there's a chance that he just, it's gone. Like it can just happen so fast for DBs.

So I just, I love what they did up front. Obviously, I think Brian Flores is one of the best play callers in the league. But they are, they're kind of doing what the dolphins have done over the past three years, where with their offense, they were running this such a specific system and leaning into this like min-max style of play where it's like, like, speed, speed, speed, speed, the offensive line doesn't matter. And then you hit last year and it's like, oh, shit, the offensive line does matter and we can't do any of the stuff that we want to do.

I just, there's a part of me that worries that we're going to get there with the Viking secondary this year where it's like, we had this such specific play style and we've let the talent deteriorate in this one spot a little bit too far and it's going to cause us a lot of issues. I really like this one a lot. The corners specifically, I do have faith this can be okay. I think Isaiah Rogers is actually okay. I know that he's gotten picked on in certain situations, but as a stopgap corner,

I think you can get by with Isaiah Rogers. And then they have Mackay Blackman coming back from that torn ACL, which is one of the only reasons they had to go with the veterans last year. The part that worries me is the safety part of it, where now you're really relying on Theo Jackson to kind of be that third safety and allow you to play the way that you wanted to play. And I guess that's my biggest question. I still feel like we're in an Ocean's 11 situation

with this group overall. like coming into the draft, I was like, I think they need one more. I think they need one more. Whether it's a corner or a safety, I think they need one more. And they just didn't do it. And sometimes with this stuff, it's like, all right, what would you have wanted them to do? Like, what is the path not taken that you think would have been better? And as I look at the Vikings, I actually think it's kind of simple, like the two options you could have.

And I'll present them both to you. Would you rather have Javon Hargrave on this defense right now or Cam Bynum? Cam Bynum. I think so too. especially because it's not even necessarily just a one-to-one player thing. It's like there's proof of concept that Cam Bynum is really good in this defense, whereas Hardgrave, we just don't know. Because they double-dipped at that defensive tackle spot.

And I think if I had to pick, I'd still probably rather have one of those guys when you already have Dallas Turner coming in. I get the argument with we need to be better at creating a pass rush with four. Our individual players up there are not good enough. We've had to manufacture it too much. but I almost think they over-indexed for that and didn't do enough to address maybe playing a little bit more traditionally on the back end. So that's a good one because I do think it obviously Cam Bynum made more money guaranteed. His contract is a little bit longer.

It's not a one-to-one. But Javon-Hardgrave has a $7 million cap at this year. Can Bynum has a $7 million cap at this year before the contracts start going up next year. So they probably could have fit him in if they didn't do one of the defensive tackles. and I might like that construction of the defense a little bit more than this one. Yeah, that's just where I arrived with it, where it just had this feeling with the Dolphins offense where it's like, oh, just keep getting more speed.

Just get more small guys, get more speed. It'll be fine. And the Vikings kind of have done that with their front over the past couple of years. And it just scares me that we're getting into a spot where this build is a little bit fragile. My next one here, and this is one we've hit on in a bunch of different ways this offseason, even at the end of last season. I think it was a pretty prominent part of the conversation. after they lost to the Chiefs,

the bills have had to tell themselves this offseason that their break is going to come eventually. Eventually. This is a great one. This is so good. Eventually, if we stay the course, it's going to happen, right? The players we have are good.

The quarterback is so good. We are solid. We've done the right things on offense. We've evolved in the ways that we've needed to. The defense is a different conversation. We could talk about that. But if you look at the bills off season and just what they've done over the last couple years,

there have been these little pointed bits of aggression. We talked about the Joey Bosa contract on the mailbag that's going to run next week, actually, how that sort of move where you're pro-rating a bunch of money. It's essentially, you know, it's a $12 million contract, but he's only hitting the cap for five. Like that is a level of aggression, but it's tempered aggression. And that's really what they've done over the last two off seasons. It's like, we're going to make little moves on the margins, and we're going to hope that's enough to make the ending of this story a little bit different.

I believe that's right. but that still is a story that you're having to tell yourself. And I think that extends to the McDermott part of this. Because I've been pretty vocal about the fact that I think Sean McDermott, what he's done is really hard to do. And I think we underrate how hard it is to be that level of head coach. But if the same thing happens again and if the defense melts down in the playoffs again, and if the chiefs who have relative struggles against other defenses now that they didn't have three or four years ago are burning down the bills again, where it feels harder against some of these other teams,

we're going to get to a point on January 20th of 2026 where we're having a pretty hard conversation. So I do believe this story is worth telling yourself, but it's getting a little bit tenuous here as we keep going deeper and deeper into it. This is such a good one, because all of the other ones we brought up are about things that teams did that they think they're going to change,

like the Rams signing Puna Ford, or the giant signing new quarterbacks and making new stuff, the Jaguar scrapping their head coach and bringing in Liam Cohen, stuff that they did that they expect change. With the bills, it's kind of about stuff they didn't do. It's like you said, they are for the most part staying the course and just believing that if we continue to play at a 9 out of 10 level, eventually we're going to win the AFC championship

and we're going to have our shot at the Super Bowl. But you kind of do have to be delusional about this. And we talked this about a little bit on, I think it was maybe one of the mailback shows a few weeks ago, like, you really do have to start being delusional that, yes, we are good enough. We are doing all of the right things. We just haven't been lucky enough. But that's hard to convince yourself of when you are a competitor to just say like I'm good enough, but I just haven't been fortunate enough. That's like, competitors don't think that way. So it's hard to like, I just, this is such a fantastic one.

And I don't disagree with anything they did this offseason, by the way. I actually support most of the moves they made this offseason. If you look at them all stacked up against each other, I think that Josh Palmer, even if he's not the most exciting guy in the world, is the right sort of piece for that passing game and what they were missing. You go to the defensive side of the ball. I love the fact that they were just like, we're refreshing the entire defensive line rotation,

whether it's with Bosa, Landon Jackson, the interior players that we drafted, I get all of that. And then we need to take one swing at corner because that's the biggest remaining need on the defense. Safety is maybe a spot they could have addressed in some way where they didn't. Like the lack of physicality at safety, I do think is still something I would come back to. But for the most part, I think they plugged the holes that they needed to. So this is not a criticism.

It's just one of those things where by the end of it, you're just going to be sitting there. It's like that's the meme of the guy pointing in himself in the mirror. It's like, we're good enough. We are good enough. This is not our problem. And the funniest part about this, the Ravens are doing the exact same thing. Oh, they are. They really are.

It takes, and it takes such an insane amount of discipline to not go do the crazy thing, not go trade for a receiver or if, I don't know how they would have made the money work, but like the bills really wanting to go out and trade for Jalen Ramsey and make him a safety. Like to do something crazy, it takes a insane amount of discipline to not go out and do those things. But again, I agree with all of the little moves that really both of these teams made. And I believe that they both are good enough to win a Super Bowl. It's just you have to stare down Patrick Mahomes in the mirror every single, every single season. As we hang out in the teams chasing the Chiefs and the AFC portion of things, the lie or the story that the Bengals are having to tell themselves is a real reliance on more young players and Al Golden is going to fix the defense.

I'm not having any more Bengals conversations this week. I was on Mina's pod doing the AFC North preview and I'm all set on that. I've lived, I've played around in that sandbox enough this week. but I think that one is at least worth acknowledging. If we're, that that's the one that the other AFC team trying to compete with the Bengals or the chiefs has had to tell themselves. Yeah, that one's not as much worth having. Like they, their defense is so far away that it's not as interesting as like the Bills and the Ravens for me. Let's get to your next one here.

What's your next story that a team is having to tell itself this offseason? Yeah, the next one I have and this is one. I wanted to bring this one off because this is one that I think we've gone back and forth with for a lot of the off season. the Raiders are really telling themselves the story that them being like the worst run game in the league last year was not at all an offensive line problem. And I think they might be right, but it's funny because I think on an individual level like player by player, I'm probably like 10% less excited about all of those players than a lot of other people.

But at the same time, there's a lot of stuff that you can really sell yourself on. The other piece is really helping them. And one example I want to bring up, just to really explain like how bad the situation was for the Raiders. There's a play to open the half in the Steelers game where they're running like an outside zone and they leave the backside defender unblocked. It's T.J. Watt. At the quarterback at the time was Aiden O'Connell. Aiden O'Connell is not a boot threat. And so T.J. Watt just doesn't respect it at all and just goes and kills the running back. And that to me is like one of those little things that, you know, Gino Smith isn't the best athlete in the world. But he's going to give you more than Aiden O'Connell to where guys like that. like T.J. Wad, who are the unblocked defender, have to at least respect that.

You add that on top of Chip Kelly, probably being a better play caller than Luke Getsey, Pete Carroll in general being a better head coach than they got out of Antonio Pierce. Like, you can start to tell yourself that this really wasn't. And obviously, I haven't even mentioned Ashen Gentie being a million times better than the running backs that they had last year. You can tell yourself the story. But then I just watched the offensive line and I'm like, I don't know, man. Doesn't really, doesn't really move me.

I've been on record that I actually have faith in the offensive line. And the other thing that I like about the offensive line is they've given themselves options, right? So going out and getting those two guys in the third round, like, I just think there are a bunch of different ways. Signing Alex Kappa. Yeah. And it's like, listen, he's had trouble coming back from the injury, but I think that you've given yourself enough chances where hopefully you can land on a five that you feel good about. Here is the stat that I will throw out to you for why it might be less of an offensive line problem than other things. Among players with 35 carries last year in the NFL, there was one player in the league

who had a lower percentage of his rushes go over expectation than Zemir White. One player. That player is Jared Goff. I did not know who the player was going to be. That is truly phenomenal. If you are running, if you're only peer for being that poor of a runner, is Jared Goff, who runs like a baby giraffe, you're in a bad spot.

You're in a real bad spot running back talent-wise. Jared Goff had 35 carries for 56 yards last year. I'm surprised he had that. Yeah, 35 carries or 56 yards. And I'm assuming a lot of those are quarterback sneaks, whatever, but the expectation thing that's played into with the quarterback sneaks. So Jared Goff was the only one.

And so Zemir Wye was second to last among all players that at least 26 carries. If you have, with at least 30 carries, If you have it at 25 carries, there are three players below him. One of them is Cooper Rush. So it was Jared Gough and Cooper Rush. So that's what we're talking about here with the production that Samir White was getting. And Rush's over expectation is its next-gen stats trying to untangle what a running back is doing compared to the situation around him.

What are you supposed to get in a given play? What do you get in a given play? So that stat is designed to try to isolate running back performance. So hopefully you're going to have Ashton Genty come in. and give you a little bit more than Zemir White gave you last year. When you spend that high of a pick on him, I would really hope so. And that's the part of it, I think, that I can most get myself there on. Like, I can look at the offensive line talent and say, you know, again,

I'm probably 10% less excited about it than other people, especially some of the younger players. But part of the issue with why they were such a bad rushing offense last year. So them in Houston had the worst rushing success rates in the league last year. It was both just under 32%. The reason why the Raiders were far and away, or not far in a way, but why the Raiders were worse than total EPA on rushing downs,

and the Texans were only like 25th or something like that, is because Joe Mixon at least had some explosives. Yeah, he could hit some home runs. Alex Madison's not hitting that many home runs. No, he's got one gear and it's not very fast. And that was the difference. And Gentie, I think, is absolutely going to give them that, where he is going to give them some 50s.

15 yard pops every now and then. And that alone might change their fortune and might get them to, you know, the 18th best rushing offense in the league, which isn't sexy. But it's a lot better than being far and away, the worst in the league. So it's, again, I can, this is one I'm hemm and hawn with all the offseason. And I might not even have a full decision until we really get to like our final preseason previews and stuff like that. But it's one again.

I understand the story that they're telling themselves. I'm not sure I can get there. but I do understand it the more I look at it. I'm excited to actually go watch a little bit more of that Raiders offensive line from last year. A lot of my thoughts on it are a couple scattered games in the back half of the season. Like I haven't actually carved out time to go study it in depth. It's more like, oh, I like these guys more than I thought. Like, I liked a couple of the flashes from DJ Glaze and even like what Jordan Meredith gave them at times.

And Jackson Powers Johnson going into year too. Like that's part of how I've been able to talk myself into it. But I am excited for that discussion when we talk about the Raiders during that preview, which those are coming up, buddy. Those are going to be happening a lot faster than we even think they are. Let's take one more quick break and then come back with a few more of these. So my bills one was more existential than some of the other ones that were born about a specific move. And the same goes for these next two.

I think both of these teams have had to tell themselves a similar story. And I even had to tell themselves, but this is the story they've told themselves this offseason. The Bucks and Washington believe their time is now in the NFC. Both of them, that is the story that they have told themselves this off season. You look at how aggressive Washington has been with some of the moves that they've made, some of the draft picks that they've traded away. I think they really believe they can be competitive right now. And then you look at the bucks.

It's not just, it's not really the moves that the bucks have made, but them signing Bowls and Jason Light to those extensions and just being like, we feel really good about where we are in the broader NFC hierarchy. We lost a coin flip game to this Washington team who blew out the lions in the divisional round and then lost to an Eagles team in the NFC championship, that as the Bucks, we've given a really hard time over the last few years. This Eagles team feels invincible to everybody else. We've done very, very well against them.

So I'm sure they're sitting there being like, why not us? Because you look at the broader NFC, why isn't it our time as a Bucks team that has been kind of building to this moment? And then Washington, it's like we were one game away from the Super Bowl in year one of a rebuild with a rookie quarterback. Why isn't it our time to kind of take the mantle here in this conference and really wrestle it away from that Eagles team? How real any of that is?

I don't know, but I do think that is the narrative that started to build in both of those places. The Box Eagles point is such a good one where the Eagles have been the cream of the crop of the conference for like three, four years now. But Todd Bowles rocks up and Jalen Hurts just does not have a good time. And like if any of those moves they made in the secondary hit, I think that's only going to be more true. Like if there's a little bit less air in the coverage for Jalen Hurst to be, you know, throwing some one-on-one balls to AJ Brown or something like that, that could really go a long way. And the other thing is too, like how this team could not delude themselves, but sell themselves that this is all going to be fine, especially on offense.

Okay, it sucks that we lost Liam Cohen. But we lost Dave Canales the year before and we just replaced him. We'll do it again. It doesn't matter. Same guy on the staff. He was calling some of our plays. Like, we'll be all right. We'll do it again.

And I understand why they believe some of that. And then doubling down on the offense even with like a mecca, Buka and being like, well, we threw 40 touchdowns last year. If we had another receiver, we can just keep doing it. Like all of this. The Bucks one is really fascinating because I think heading into this off season, I didn't necessarily perceive them the way that I did Washington, where Washington absolutely is pedal to the medal. Like they really think they're going to be the team. But when you look at it, more the way that the bucks have handled themselves, even if it doesn't feel as aggressive,

they actually are kind of in the same boat of like, oh, they really do think that this is the time to do it, especially, you know, again, the lions taking a step back, Eagles will probably have a little bit of a hangover. The Vikings, Lord knows, with their quarterback situation. Like, it's just the Niners, who knows if the Niners are going to be able to return to form. I do think that even if it doesn't play out this way, even if the Niners do return to form, even if the Lions don't take a step back, even if JJ McCarthy is able to come in and have the Vikings compete on a similar level. I think it's easy as some of these other teams to see a vacuum that's there to be filled.

And with the bucks, again, I don't think it's the moves that they've made that send you that signal. I do think the moves for those, the extensions for those guys, after falling short a little bit in the playoffs over the last couple years, that does to me kind of project a, you know, we think we're really on the right track here. We really do think that we're one of the more solid, reliable teams in the league. And I don't think that's wrong. I think what they've been able to do in the couple years post Brady has been incredibly impressive. And for the buck specifically, the offense is easy to sell yourself. I think what you just said about the play callers is perfect. Like we already did it once.

Why can't we do it again? We have all the pieces personnel-wise. And then on defense, it's not that hard to get yourself there. If one of these young corners hits, you know, Braswell going into year two, we drafted a pass rusher in the fourth round. If Hassan Redick has a little bit more left. If everything falls into place, you could look at a roster that is really, really good and really, really complete. And so for the buck specifically, I get trying to build yourself up into we believe that our time is right now. And it's so fascinating too because obviously you have defensive head.

And they weren't a very good defense last year. But when you have a defensive head coach, you probably always believe that you can get there, especially with a couple more pieces. It's always like a bounce of the ball either way. Like, right, we've seen ourselves do it before. So they have that going for them. And then everything they've done the last two years on offense, like they're literally batting like a thousand on draft pick, signings. They revive Baker Mayfield.

Like it's truly insane. Like I, over the past two years, I don't even know like the worst choice that they've made or decision they've made as an offense. Like, Bucky Irving, the draft pick obviously hits. Like the worst is probably, I don't know, you drafted Jalen McMillan the top 75 and he wasn't a superstar. Like that's it. And he's still a useful player. Like I just, almost everything they've done on the offense is like awesome.

He's a third round pick. And if he's your wide receiver four, like you can absolutely live with that. That's a win. Like they literally, I don't, even Rashad White was better for them last year than he had been before. Like they're legitimately over the last two years batting like a thousand for everything they did on offense. This is, this is pretty crazy.

I really do think that the two you can throw out there are Rashad, you drafted him 91st overall, you'd hope that guy can become your future back within an offense. He didn't quite get there, but that's in part because Bucky Irving just overshadowed him as a really good player. And then the other one you could throw out, Kyle Trask probably wasn't worth drafting in the second round. But at that point, you needed to take a swing for your quarterback of the future. So even that I can understand to a degree. Other than that, like Robert Hainsey in the third round, wasn't your starting center, was good enough to get paid by somebody else, Tristan Worf's in the first round.

They drafted no offensive players in 2019, which is actually kind of funny. So for the most part, they've been batten close to 1,000, even something like the fucking Ben Bredesen signing, where you sign him for nothing, and then he has a career year with you. Everything they've touched on that side of the ball

has turned to gold. You're 100% right about that. Like I truly, maybe there's one or two other team, maybe like the Eagles last year with what they did, they did, they did last year on their defense is the same as batting a thousand, but the bucks have really done it for like two or three years in a row now where they just keep building and building.

And eventually, like, law of averages, you would think it has to come back around and, like, maybe a Mecca, Bucco just sucks or something. But, I don't know, man, I really liked them. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's going to happen. All right, what's your last one?

Those were all of my big ones. And then the other ones I had were just some other small ones we've talked about and probably the closest that I could have for one is like, the Panthers really have to tell themselves that there is more to Bryce Young. You know, I think we talked about why he kind of became the player that he became after how bad his rookie season was and how bad it was early in his career. But I do think when you look at him physically, it's very obvious that he does have a ceiling,

but they're really having to sell themselves that despite that there is more to him and that him playing with a little bit better receivers with Tetaroa and McMillan and stuff, that that is going to unlock something more. I get why they believe that based on Bryce. So I'm really feeling like he was more the player at Alabama than obviously he was as a rookie or his first couple of starts. But you are having to sell yourself a story. And that is one where I'll be clear, there weren't a whole lot of other options for them this offseason. So it's like I don't know what other story they were going to tell themselves.

You know, it was that or be like be the Aaron Rogers team trade for Kirk Cousins. That probably wasn't that exciting. So I get it. But they are having to talk themselves into this, I think. I think that Bryce Young, I believe that story may be more than you do, just in part by watching like three or four games in the back half of last season, the sheer number of times that his past catchers let him down on balls that should have been complete. It was startling. It was awful. It was so bad.

I was so frustrated for him. And so bringing in a guy like McMillan and hopefully being able to rectify some of that, I'm at least excited to see how that goes. Even if there's probably more hope in that story than is deserved it based on some of the. of his limitations. I'm interested in what the positive outcome there could potentially look like. I'm excited to watch this team with McMillan and with Bryce Young playing the way he did in the back half of last season. So that's one that I can get behind. A couple more that we've kind of touched down this offseason that we don't have to go at length, but I think they fit this. The Cardinals are telling themselves that in-house improvement is plenty on their offense.

Like if we fix the defense personnel-wise, like we're going to get enough of a enough progress from Paris Johnson, Marvin Harrison Jr., Isaiah Adams, some of these young draft picks that we didn't need to invest in the offense this year. I think that's possible. I absolutely think that there is a path for them to succeed that way if the defense can get a lot better with better players. But that's the story they've had to tell themselves. And Seattle, it's the scheme was the problem.

The coordinator was the problem. If we have something that ties it all together on offense for us, even if we didn't, obviously drafted into your offense line in the first round. But even if we didn't go above and beyond to add multiple new starters on the offensive line, even if we even took a step back with the quality of our past catching group, even if we made a lateral move at quarterback, all that is fine because it was the structure of the offense last year that was our biggest issue. And now we're going to be okay with things tied together in a more cohesive way.

So those are the two others that I would throw out. That's going to be a kind of interesting case study with those two teams. side by side, right, with the Cardinals and the Seahawks, where the Cardinals did, like you said, basically nothing. And if anything, only, like, lost some players on the offensive line and are just hoping young players are going to step up. But they are really just betting that, like, yeah, one more year of petting doing this and, you know,

bringing a new offensive line coach and all that stuff, that's going to fix us. That's, we're going to be all right. Whereas the Seahawks are like, dude, scrap the whole thing. I just tear it all down and bring in a new coordinator. So it would be funny to see which one actually ends up better in the wash. Obviously, it helps that we've at least. seen the Arizona quarterback played at an MVP level and that certainly raises your

floor but it'll be a fun little case study those two teams. All right. That is all we've got for today. We will have one more show I believe this week. So be on the lookout for that. You guys will be listening to this while I'm on vacation. So Derek will be carrying the next show with a special guest to come in and then I'll be back starting next week and I'll be back really until forever.

I mean, we'll be back and ready to go starting next week because, I mean, now there's not another vacation or the end on in sight, man. I mean, our season really does start when it comes to the way, the way that I've always thought about the show and how the year is structured. When training camp begins, that's it. Like, we are, we're in it. And that's fine. I love that part and I love that part of the calendar.

My training camp travel is set. I'm going to see 25 teams this year, which I think is a record. so I'm very excited about that. It's one of my favorite things to do every year is to put it all together and to kind of plan who I get to talk to. And it's something I do not take for granted. I feel very lucky to be able to do it. And it truly is one of my favorite stretches of the year.

Camps open on like July 20th is the first day that the Lions have camp. I will be there on July 20th when the Lions open camp. And I'm going from July 20th through August 8th with no off days. So I will be at a camp from every day from July. 20th to August 8th. There are some travel decisions I made that I am already regretting, but I think we'll be okay. I'm having a hard time even picturing what that Google calendar looks like with flights and meetings and then getting to get into practices. It's got to be a whole lot of different colors. The only one I'm a little bit worried about is that I'm taking a red eye

from Seattle to Atlanta to get there for Falcons practice. And the Falcons have a 9 a.m. practice that day that I'm getting there. I've already apologized to multiple people within the Falcons organization about how I'm going to arrive to that day in those conversations. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, there had to be one team that wasn't going to get your best. And sorry to the Falcons for that. It was Washington last year.

And if you've ever been in the Mid-Atlantic in late July and August, that is not a fun place to be in the summer. So I'm hoping that Atlanta is at least a little bit more forgiving as I get off of a red eye flight and go straight to practice. We'll see how that goes. Maybe the team who gets your roughest day has the best surprising season. So maybe we just get a Michael Pennex 40 touchdown season. Who knows? We'll talk to Falcons into that. For now, guys, that is all we've got. Sincerely appreciate all of you listening. We'll talk to you very soon.